View Full Version : Poor quality
A customer came into my shop today with his RRA AR. He wanted a Crane O-ring installed and some other items. So we took apart his AR and I found some VERY poor workmanship in it. As we all know, RRA dremel tools in their feed ramps. Well these were the worst I have seen. One is longer than the other and almost goes to the bottom of the receiver. :rolleyes:
To make matters worse, the carrier was staked, but the metal NEVER even touched the carrier key bolts! What good does that do?? It was so bad, that I had to grab my camera for some evidence.
I am always amazed what some AR manufacturers get away with. If I had done this to an AR, my name would be up in lights as the worst AR builder in the world.
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/RRA/Dremel%20feed%20ramps.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/RRA/Poor%20Staking.jpg
Alpha Sierra
01-02-07, 18:53
That truly does suck. :eek:
I am seeing the light about mil-spec parts.
Nathan_Bell
01-02-07, 19:01
Do the tier 2-3-Sh** manufacturers really save that much money by doing things that poorly? For Pete's sake don't put in M4 ramps if you are going to do them wrong, most folks don't need them, and they make the gun look cheep. In other words, skip the ramp stage entirely. You will save even more money than putting them in wrong.
Why take the time to stake a carrier wrong? If you are going to have the tooling to stake, adjust it so the shit works right. May cost a couple dollars to set right, but you do not have the buyers going to an AR pro and getting looks of pity for having bought a gun rag approved piece.
/rant Off
I realize everyone on the .net is a professional gunfighter, who pushes their “weapons” to extremes in preperation for the ultimate show down, but get over it.
I don’t agree with what RRA does with a dremmel, no matter how nice/evenly they do it. It shouldn’t be done, it’s not necessary, and doesn’t help anything. On the other side of the coin, it’s not going to hurt anything either, no matter how bad it looks.
The carrier doesn’t seem to be staked as well as some, but I’d be willing to bet it would have held for a lifetime of semi auto use.
Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Some poor kid whose carbine has been running flawlessly is going to see these pics and think something is actually wrong with his carbine and stay up all night worrying he isn’t prepared for the zombies!
I realize everyone on the .net is a professional gunfighter, who pushes their “weapons” to extremes in perpetration for the ultimate show down, but get over it.
I don’t agree with what RRA does with a dremmel, no matter how nice/evenly they do it. It shouldn’t be done, it’s not necessary, and doesn’t help anything. On the other side of the coin, it’s not going to hurt anything either, no matter how bad it looks.
The carrier doesn’t seem to be staked as well as some, but I’d be willing to bet it would have held for a lifetime of semi auto use.
Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Some poor kid whose carbine has been running flawlessly is going to see these pics and think something is actually wrong with his carbine and stay up all night worrying he isn’t prepared for the zombies!
I here ya Steve. It isn't so much that M4 cuts are a must have, but simply about poor fit/finish of their weapons. We all know that M4 upper receivers are the same price as A3 upper receivers. So I just cannot understand why they dremel tool in cuts. The improperly staked carrier key can lead to a malfunction which could cost someone.
I think if you spend over $800 for an AR, you should at least get some form of quality.
C4
The carrier doesn’t seem to be staked as well as some, but I’d be willing to bet it would have held for a lifetime of semi auto use.
My first AR was a complete Bushmaster. The key came loose (factory staked) around the 8k mark, which took me 1.5 years to reach.
Do the tier 2-3-Sh** manufacturers really save that much money by doing things that poorly? For Pete's sake don't put in M4 ramps if you are going to do them wrong, most folks don't need them, and they make the gun look cheep. In other words, skip the ramp stage entirely. You will save even more money than putting them in wrong.
Why take the time to stake a carrier wrong? If you are going to have the tooling to stake, adjust it so the shit works right. May cost a couple dollars to set right, but you do not have the buyers going to an AR pro and getting looks of pity for having bought a gun rag approved piece.
/rant Off
The M4 cuts are not needed (especially on semi). So I agree. Why spend the time with Mr. Dremel and make the weapon look like a monkey trying to F*ck a football???
They also took the time to stake the carrier key, but missed the mark totally. It also appears that they might have used the wrong size bolts in the carrier key as there were large gaps between the bolt heads and walls of the key.
The biggest problem, is that people are not educated enough to know what is wrong with the above pics and just accept it as "the way it is."
C4
My first AR was a complete Bushmaster. The key came loose (factory staked) around the 8k mark, which took me 1.5 years to reach.
Vibration is a son of a bitch and is just a matter of time before something like the carrier key comes loose.
C4
baffle Stack
01-02-07, 19:49
Maybe M4C should take up a collection and buy RRA and Bushmaster some MOACKs:p
I own a RRA with the dremelled ramps and it has fed virtually everything reliably (Wolf, 55 gr. M193, 62 gr. C77, SS109). Now, about the carrier key, mine seems to be similar, is this correct?:
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/1259/img0745lf4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
And the ramps:
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3913/img0748zy7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Cheers.
Rmplstlskn
01-02-07, 20:00
That is some CRAPPY workmanship, no two ways about it...
I don't care if my AR sits in a safe for decades, untouched, but if I PAY GOOD MONEY for a product, I darn well expect it to be done right. Those ramps and stakes are just WRONG and will not cut RRA any slack in it.
I'm surprised that Bigbore, well known for his quality workmanship, would defend such poor fit & finish. This is RRA after all, the DEA choice, right... not CENTURY, which is well known for monkeys with grinders...
Rmpl
From what I've experienced Stag seems to be the most inconsistent with their M4 ramps, I've seen 2 uppers where the ramps were so misaligned that the weapon failed to feed properly. I own a RRA with the dremelled ramps and it's fed virtually everything reliably (Wolf, 55 gr. M193, 62 gr. C77 SS109). Now, about the carrier keys, mine seem to be similar, is this correct?:
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/1259/img0745lf4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
And the ramps:
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3913/img0748zy7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Cheers.
Stag does not offer M4 barrel extensions or M4 recievers. They did do a limited edition AR awhile back that had them, but that was it.
Your dremel cuts look better than the one I saw today, the question still remains as to why RRA does it at all?
It is hard to see your staking, but you should be able to see the metal touch the carrier key bolts. If it does not, then your staking job is not correct.
C4
I agree with Grant, impact on function or lack thereof aside, that just looks like shoddy work.
Those ramps and stakes are just WRONG and will not cut RRA any slack in it.
There isn't a right or wrong way to stake a carrier key. There's good enough and not good enough.
I've mentioned questionable carrier keys to RRA before, and I'll be sure to send them this link.
If you have a carrier key that looks like that, I wouldnt worry about it. If you have a punch and a hammer, give them a hit if it makes you feel better.
I think ANY dremmel job that removed anodizing is bullshit, I'm not defending that practice. I sell a half million dollars worth of RRA rifles a year, and I can count the number of complaints I've received on 1 hand.
IMO, the big deal here, isnt a big deal.
I may be new to the AR but those stake marks look like they were machined into the bolt carrier when it was milled and not "stamp" or hand punched like I see on my Bushmaster with a hammer.
Stag does not offer M4 barrel extensions or M4 recievers. They did do a limited edition AR awhile back that had them, but that was it.
Your dremel cuts look better than the one I saw today, the question still remains as to why RRA does it at all?
It is hard to see your staking, but you should be able to see the metal touch the carrier key bolts. If it does not, then your staking job is not correct.
C4
Must have been a different brand, I had no idea Stag didn't cut ramps into their receiver extensions, I assumed it after all the praise Stag is getting for being pretty close to "spec". I'm guessing RRA dremels their uppers to improve compatibility with different types of ammunition, it certainly does not hurt their feeding capability.
Must have been a different brand, I had no idea Stag didn't cut ramps into their receiver extensions, I assumed it after all the praise Stag is getting for being pretty close to "spec". I'm guessing RRA dremels their uppers to improve compatibility with different types of ammunition, it certainly does not hurt their feeding capability.
Stag does not follow the TDP in many ways. They also do not properly stake their carrier keys (which I have told them about).
The M4 cuts were designed to help with FA fire (not semi). With that said, I like to have them as I typically shoot 75 or 77gr ammo. This is not important with 1/9 twist barrels.
Giving the AR a better chance to feed a round is NEVER a bad thing so I would ALWAYS rather have M4 cuts then not.
C4
Vibration is a son of a bitch and is just a matter of time before something like the carrier key comes loose.
C4
I agree!
My key was staked (barely) but it did last 8k. From that point on I staked my own keys and I realized the importance of paying attention to the little things.
-55
Nathan_Bell
01-02-07, 21:35
Stag does not follow the TDP in many ways. They also do not properly stake their carrier keys (which I have told them about).
The M4 cuts were designed to help with FA fire (not semi). With that said, I like to have them as I typically shoot 75 or 77gr ammo. This is not important with 1/9 twist barrels.
Giving the AR a better chance to feed a round is NEVER a bad thing so I would ALWAYS rather have M4 cuts then not.
C4
A properly done set of M4 ramps gives a warm feeling that one lthing that could go wrong, is now less likely to. The Dremel cuts are the problem,restate; the inconsistencies I have seen with various pics of the Dremel cuts is what worries me. If RRA, et al had a jig that repeated a reasonable fascimile of a M4 cut on every gun I would not have ranted. Sadly, my experiences have been that they are not consistent.
RRA makes a nice gun, which as Bigbore states is all that most are looking for. Something to take to the range once every couple months and burn a couple mags a piece amonst friends and maybe shoot some critters. RRA needs to fix just a few small things to move up to the nice weapon standard, which is how the professionals on the board judge things ( I am not a pro, I am a gear junky who likes to shoot, but knows fine workmanship)
extended feed ramps on my CMMG (look to be machined prior to finishing):
http://mysite.verizon.net/tlinderman/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/dsc01798.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/tlinderman/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/dsc01805.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/tlinderman/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/dsc01809.jpg
LMT enhanced BCG staking:
http://mysite.verizon.net/tlinderman/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/lmt_enhanced_bcg.jpg
Stag does not offer M4 barrel extensions or M4 recievers. They did do a limited edition AR awhile back that had them, but that was it.
Your dremel cuts look better than the one I saw today, the question still remains as to why RRA does it at all?
It is hard to see your staking, but you should be able to see the metal touch the carrier key bolts. If it does not, then your staking job is not correct.
C4
Slightly OT here:
Grant, we just got a special run of 16.1" Stags with 4150 barrels 1/7" twist and very nicely machined M4 ramps(last month) . My question to Stag was why they install their taper pins opposite to everyone else's?. Their key staking is notoriously poor to be sure.
Oh man...thanks Grant for posting this thread, first you knock my S.I.R. (and tell all why ARMS is a suck company)...then you have to go and BLAST my RRA M4gery:(
but I pulled it out of the case to double check it and I'm happy to report that my carrier was staked very well, and the feed ramps are pretty smooth and even(even if they did rip the anodizing off).
I'm still happy with mine though...it shoots like a laser(and now I'm saving for a "TDP" gun like you all keep talking about.
Whats next...are you going to tell me my 870 and my Kimber 1911's are scrap metal too;)
Hey Raining Brass, I wouldn't take it personally. One of my favorite and most reliable guns is an old hodge-podge of parts from various manufactures that defies the odds and keeps running. In fact the only failure I had was the gas key came loose around the 5K mark. The kicker there is it's a Colt BCG :eek:
Shoot your RRA and enjoy it. At one time many thought that RRA was the best value going in the AR world ;)
I can understand the staking job here, few others do it right as well and if they did we wouldn't have been introduced to Ned's kick ass staking tool! But why in the hell would they dremel ramps in an upper? I would think it would be cheaper just to buy uppers with ramps already forged in them because you wouldn't have to pay someone to stand there with a dremel tool all day. Maybe they are just using up old stock?
I've always said, if I were to get a RRA I'd have Steve build it for me.
I'm inclined to agree with bigbore on this one.
While I personally choose to have things done in what I consider to be the "right" way, I think many of us get far too carried away in regards to some of these matters. The reality is that for probably 95% (maybe even 99%) of non-LEO civilian owners, "almost as good" really is "good enough". The worst thing that's going to happen to the vast majority of us is that a range day will be cut short because some part broke, and we'll have to go home until we get a replacement.
With that said, I just got done with a 3-day Pat Rogers class, and I spent far too much time standing around while we un-f@cked someone ELSE's sub-standard firearm/magazine/optic/ammo issue. I generally couldn't care less what kind of gun someone else shoots, but it amazed me at how many people showed up to this class with truly sub-standard gear, and it frustrated me to find that their gear selection affected my training experience.
Robb Jensen
01-03-07, 05:54
I work on RRA rifles on an almost a daily basis at work (as we sell a lot of them). Most of the work is customizing and not functioning repair.
My two biggest complaints about RRA ARs is that their gas keys are staked like sh** (already mentioned here) and that they use about a 1/2 bottle of blue Loc-Tite between their carbine receiver extensions and lower receivers.
Proper assembly doesn't require Loc-Tite to secure a receiver extension. Torque and staking works just fine as directed in the US Military Techincal Manual, few companies properly assemble ARs by following these guidelines.
Rob S - Every class I've been to has the same problems. The best solution I've seen is at Blackwater. The student gets a loaner and the junk gun is sent to the armory for repair. Class keeps right on rolling. 15-20 guys shouldn't stand around with their thumb up their ass because someone else wasn't prepared for class. We always take spare everythings, so we can keep on blasting. Last trip to Blackwater, 4 of my guns were on the line all week. None had a malf of any kind. I think I've figured out how to keep 'em running. 2 of the carbines were assembled by me, 2 were M16's slightly re-worked by me. Staked keys, lots of lube, good mags, Federal ammo, every attachment option loc-tited/staked. Best Xmas present I got was the high-dollar, high speed staking tool, so I don't have to steal GotM4's anymore!
Oh man...thanks Grant for posting this thread, first you knock my S.I.R. (and tell all why ARMS is a suck company)...then you have to go and BLAST my RRA M4gery:(
but I pulled it out of the case to double check it and I'm happy to report that my carrier was staked very well, and the feed ramps are pretty smooth and even(even if they did rip the anodizing off).
I'm still happy with mine though...it shoots like a laser(and now I'm saving for a "TDP" gun like you all keep talking about.
Whats next...are you going to tell me my 870 and my Kimber 1911's are scrap metal too;)
LOL, you know me...
C4
I'm inclined to agree with bigbore on this one.
While I personally choose to have things done in what I consider to be the "right" way, I think many of us get far too carried away in regards to some of these matters. The reality is that for probably 95% (maybe even 99%) of non-LEO civilian owners, "almost as good" really is "good enough". The worst thing that's going to happen to the vast majority of us is that a range day will be cut short because some part broke, and we'll have to go home until we get a replacement.
With that said, I just got done with a 3-day Pat Rogers class, and I spent far too much time standing around while we un-f@cked someone ELSE's sub-standard firearm/magazine/optic/ammo issue. I generally couldn't care less what kind of gun someone else shoots, but it amazed me at how many people showed up to this class with truly sub-standard gear, and it frustrated me to find that their gear selection affected my training experience.
There are two issues here. First is poor craftsmanship. The second is a reliability issue. People should get what they pay for (which is properly staked carrier keys and non-dremeled feed ramps). This isn't rocket science here.
I am a civy that will NEVER settle for "almost as good as." Reason? My and my families life matter more than that. It is ALWAYS better to have the best and never need it.
C4
I work on RRA rifles on an almost a daily basis at work (as we sell a lot of them). Most of the work is customizing and not functioning repair.
My two biggest complaints about RRA ARs is that their gas keys are staked like sh** (already mentioned here) and that they use about a 1/2 bottle of blue Loc-Tite between their carbine receiver extensions and lower receivers.
Proper assembly doesn't require Loc-Tite to secure a receiver extension. Torque and staking works just fine as directed in the US Military Techincal Manual, few companies properly assemble ARs by following these guidelines.
Agree. Who ever thought it is a good idea to loctite (sometimes with red) the RE in???? That is the cheap way out (again) and just makes changing the part out a nightmare.
C4
I am a civy that will NEVER settle for "almost as good as." Reason? My and my families life matter more than that. It is ALWAYS better to have the best and never need it.
C4
Until the day I die, I will never understand why this is such a hard concept for people to grasp. I guess this is an area, again, where I see people (generally speaking) use that word I hate, in regards to whats right for me and what I'll do with my weapons.
Sparrow will likely recall a Colt M4A1 (well that time I think a LE6921 lower on a RO921HB upper) of mine becoming a single shot bolt action at the 500m - due to a factory Colt bolt carrier shitting the bed with the gas key.
Shit happens with the best -- I've seen factory Diemaco and Colt bolts snap screws and pop the key despite being flawlessly staked -- the bolt just failed.
However if I spend my hard (well okay not hard, but I think that the American tax payer that pays my salary should get his money worth :D ) earned money on weapons and ammo, I refuse to be short changed.
Sparrow will likely recall a Colt M4A1 (well that time I think a LE6921 lower on a RO921HB upper) of mine becoming a single shot bolt action at the 500m - due to a factory Colt bolt carrier shitting the bed with the gas key.
Shit happens with the best -- I've seen factory Diemaco and Colt bolts snap screws and pop the key despite being flawlessly staked -- the bolt just failed.
However if I spend my hard (well okay not hard, but I think that the American tax payer that pays my salary should get his money worth :D ) earned money on weapons and ammo, I refuse to be short changed.
Your comments echo, my comments about using high quality carrier key bolts (as the cheap ones can break). Or if you need to replace the carrier key, you cannot as the staking has caved in the key bolts so you cannot remove them and have to scrap the entire carrier.
C4
There are two issues here. First is poor craftsmanship. The second is a reliability issue. People should get what they pay for (which is properly staked carrier keys and non-dremeled feed ramps). This isn't rocket science here.
Actually, the ARE getting what they pay for. They paid less and they got less.
I am a civy that will NEVER settle for "almost as good as." Reason? My and my families life matter more than that. It is ALWAYS better to have the best and never need it.
That is because YOU think that you'll use your carbine to defend yourself and/or your family. The VAST majority of shooters are not in the same boat and do NOT view their AR15 carbine as anything more than just a toy. For them, "almost as good" is MORE than good enough, and they are willing to sacrifice quality for a lower cost.
Rob S - Every class I've been to has the same problems. The best solution I've seen is at Blackwater. The student gets a loaner and the junk gun is sent to the armory for repair. Class keeps right on rolling. 15-20 guys shouldn't stand around with their thumb up their ass because someone else wasn't prepared for class. We always take spare everythings, so we can keep on blasting. Last trip to Blackwater, 4 of my guns were on the line all week. None had a malf of any kind. I think I've figured out how to keep 'em running. 2 of the carbines were assembled by me, 2 were M16's slightly re-worked by me. Staked keys, lots of lube, good mags, Federal ammo, every attachment option loc-tited/staked. Best Xmas present I got was the high-dollar, high speed staking tool, so I don't have to steal GotM4's anymore!
In Pat's defense, he did loan out several rifles to people with problems. I was never asked but I gladly would have done the same. Somehow these things still become an issue.
I think the best solution is to have an equipment check at the start of the class, and properly stake keys that aren't, lube guns that aren't, and address any other easily-fixed yet oft-recurring problems.
Pat_Rogers
01-03-07, 11:57
Blaster- Every gun that went down at the FL class Rob refrenced- and every other class that i have taught, received one of my guns or that of my AI if the problem could not be rectified with immediate action.
We prefer to have the student get the gun running with immediate action to reinforce crtical skill sets (for obvious reasons). If that won't work, use mine until the downed gun is working.
In one year i have had over 8k rounds go downrange through my guns in students hands.
Rob S- The FL class had less gun issues than most classes. However, any gun can go down at any time.
The key here is to by something viable from the start, and maintain it as you use it. You seem to have that figured out...
While Steve is right that most people don't shoot enough for most issues to be a problem, my experiences over the past 20 years or so are that a lot of those just as good as guns seem to find there way to class where they take a gigantic dump in front of all to see.
Bring a spare gun. Make sure that both are well maintained. Change critical parts at regular schedules.
And please stop buying crappy guns, crappy sights, crappy magazines and crappy ammo.
Actually, the ARE getting what they pay for. They paid less and they got less.
That is because YOU think that you'll use your carbine to defend yourself and/or your family. The VAST majority of shooters are not in the same boat and do NOT view their AR15 carbine as anything more than just a toy. For them, "almost as good" is MORE than good enough, and they are willing to sacrifice quality for a lower cost.
I don't think they got what they paid for. I can build and sell a RRA type AR for the same money and do everything right. Paying $800 + dollars won't get you a tier one AR, but SHOULD get you one that doesn't look like a monkey tried to F*ck it!
Every single person that owns a firearm believes in the back of their mind that they MIGHT have to use it someday to protect themselves. I have never met and or heard anyone say otherwise.
They MIGHT not choose the AR as their primary weapon, but it is a back up for sure. This is the reason why "good enough" should NEVER fly.
C4
Bring a spare gun. Make sure that both are well maintained. Change critical parts at regular schedules.
And please stop buying crappy guns, crappy sights, crappy magazines and crappy ammo.
AMEN BROTHER!
C4
I don't think they got what they paid for. I can build and sell a RRA type AR for the same money and do everything right. Paying $800 + dollars won't get you a tier one AR, but SHOULD get you one that doesn't look like a monkey tried to F*ck it!
Maybe so, but nobody knows who you are, and at the end of the day the vast majority of people don't care if the key is staked properly or if the feed ramps are dremeled. I had a whole debate with a guy on another board that asked for opinions about the S&W M&P rifle. I suggested that he save $200 and buy the Stag (which is what the M&P is) instead, to which he replied that he'd rather have the S&W name. There really is no convincing some people.
Every single person that owns a firearm believes in the back of their mind that they MIGHT have to use it someday to protect themselves. I have never met and or heard anyone say otherwise.
They MIGHT not choose the AR as their primary weapon, but it is a back up for sure. This is the reason why "good enough" should NEVER fly.
Then you haven't had your storefront for long enough. I worked for 3 years in a gunshop that ONLY sold "assault rifles" and handguns, and the vast majority of our customers bought them as a toy. Yes, it may be in the back of every gunowner's mind that some day civilization will crumble and they'll need (sorry Hawkeye) their AR15, their 200 mags, and their 10,000 rounds of stockpiled ammo to eek out an existance in the wastelands, but they still bought the gun as a toy.
No offence to anyone but this thread reminds me of AF.com.
Back on topic.....I can't figure out why RRA would choose to dremel the feed ramps. That is beyond me?
I own two Stag AR's one rifle and one 16" carabine and they have beed very reliable. They are 4140 steel, rifle feed ramps and 1/9:cool: barrels. They still hit what I point them at.
I also own 14.5" and 10.5" LMT uppers:D
Maybe so, but nobody knows who you are, and at the end of the day the vast majority of people don't care if the key is staked properly or if the feed ramps are dremeled. I had a whole debate with a guy on another board that asked for opinions about the S&W M&P rifle. I suggested that he save $200 and buy the Stag (which is what the M&P is) instead, to which he replied that he'd rather have the S&W name. There really is no convincing some people.
Then you haven't had your storefront for long enough. I worked for 3 years in a gunshop that ONLY sold "assault rifles" and handguns, and the vast majority of our customers bought them as a toy. Yes, it may be in the back of every gunowner's mind that some day civilization will crumble and they'll need (sorry Hawkeye) their AR15, their 200 mags, and their 10,000 rounds of stockpiled ammo to eek out an existance in the wastelands, but they still bought the gun as a toy.
I think enough people know who I am and with some education, I could move a lot of them. People often pay for a name, but there are people that look past a name and recognize quality.
People MAY buy their AR for the sole purpose of shooting cans, but they KNOW that if it did hit the fan, they have an AR available. This is the road that I want people walk down (or at least acknowledge). They are most likely NEVER going to use their AR in combat, but if the need arises, they have a weapon that is built for such purposes.
C4
John_Wayne777
01-03-07, 15:20
Personally I don't much like AR's as toys. That's what I have a C&R license for...
Mine is a defensive weapon. Frankly I want it to work. Thankfully mine works like a dream.
When people are new to a weapon like the AR, I don't think there is anything wrong with pointing out the way that things should be done and educating them. After all, isn't that why this site is here? ;)
I don't think we ought to immediately go "You bought a Bushmaster?? Oh NOEZ!! UR rifle is teh suxorrz!!" (pardon my attempt at replicating teenager speak...) but steering newbies to the right choices and reasons for them is a good thing, in my humble opinion...
steering newbies to the right choices and reasons for them is a good thing, in my humble opinion...
I agree. But you have to take their real needs into account, and you have to know when to just give your two-bits worth and walk away. Some people just won't listen, or they've been pumped so full of BS by gun shop clerks or their "gun guy" friend that there's no changing their mind.
I agree. But you have to take their real needs into account, and you have to know when to just give your two-bits worth and walk away. Some people just won't listen, or they've been pumped so full of BS by gun shop clerks or their "gun guy" friend that there's no changing their mind.
I would hope their needs would be a good, reliable AR for the money. I think that is a standard thing across the board.
C4
I would hope their needs would be a good, reliable AR for the money. I think that is a standard thing across the board.
Define reliable. If the guy is only ever taking the rifle to the range once every two months and shooting 100 rounds through it per visit, and it's run 100% of the time, but it's an Oly Plinker, is it reliable?
Define reliable. If the guy is only ever taking the rifle to the range once every two months and shooting 100 rounds through it per visit, and it's run 100% of the time, but it's an Oly Plinker, is it reliable?
Reliable is reliable and using quality parts help in this area. Back again, to everyone believes that if the SHTF, they have an AR at the ready.
C4
Rob S
That is because YOU think that you'll use your carbine to defend yourself and/or your family. The VAST majority of shooters are not in the same boat and do NOT view their AR15 carbine as anything more than just a toy. For them, "almost as good" is MORE than good enough, and they are willing to sacrifice quality for a lower cost.
And you wonder why you don't seem to fit into any of these boards...:rolleyes:
Oh that's right.. you are an "Independent thinker".... You don't "Conform" to the mainstream... I suppose you carry the cheapest Insurance premium because the likelihood of you ever being in an Auto Accident is pretty slim... Home owners Insurance... why bother... the odds are slim you'll need it.
But yet you take one of Pat's classes which is clearly geared towards "Fighting with a carbine...Interesting..
Unlike you.. I want to be the third pig who builds his house out of Brick so when the Wolf comes I'm ready... so guys like you who build your house out of straw have somewhere to run to when it gets blown over....
But I guess I've always been the "Boy Scout" type who would rather be prepared and never need it vs guys like you who wait till it's to late.
Like Pat always says... Any Buckethead (actually I say that) with a gun can shoot... that's just part of the equation.
Still waiting on your "review" of Pat's class... can't wait to hear it from "your perspective"....;)
I agree. But you have to take their real needs into account, and you have to know when to just give your two-bits worth and walk away. Some people just won't listen, or they've been pumped so full of BS by gun shop clerks or their "gun guy" friend that there's no changing their mind.
I'm going to use your post as an example to further explain why I dont like that word. :)
This is exactly why you DONT take their needs into account. I dont know what someone else needs. You dont know what someone else needs. You simply explain to them why you use what you use, how you use it, why you use it, etc. Then they can make their own decision as to whether its right for them or not. Why they think they do or dont need something is completely irrelevant to me anyway. I dont concern myself with it.
John_Wayne777
01-03-07, 19:10
Define reliable. If the guy is only ever taking the rifle to the range once every two months and shooting 100 rounds through it per visit, and it's run 100% of the time, but it's an Oly Plinker, is it reliable?
In my opinion if a rifle works, so be it.
The goal of using high quality parts or buying from a Tier 1 or Tier 1.5 maker is to try and get a weapon that has the largest chance of being reliable right out of the box. If a guy can get a Bushmaster like mine that has performed superbly in multiple high-round count training courses, that's awesome. Good on him. (err...me....whatever...) If he can do the same with an Oly or a DPMS....More power to him.
Personally my standard for a defensive rifle is that it has to survive a 3,000 round training course with no major problems. If it can do that, I don't have the slightest hesitation to depend on the rifle.
I get that you are trying to say that reliability is in the eye of the beholder and that a guy who doesn't use or intend to use his rifle for serious purposes doesn't need the same standard of reliability that someone going to award virgins in Afghanistan needs...
But in all honesty, for the kind of money these things cost today and how simple it is to do little things right...I don't think it is out of line to expect better, even if the weapon isn't going to be dragged through exotic locales.
But in all honesty, for the kind of money these things cost today and how simple it is to do little things right...I don't think it is out of line to expect better, even if the weapon isn't going to be dragged through exotic locales.
To me this is the bottom line.
However, I understand Rob's point. I know of people who talk about using their ARs for defensive purposes. However, most of them do not. Nor would they be able to do so if required. They have neither the gear, magazines or ammo on hand. Their talk about defensive use of their AR is nothing more than "cloud talk." A cheaply made AR will serve their purposes. However, back to J_W's comment, why build them cheap?
To me this is the bottom line.
However, I understand Rob's point. I know of people who talk about using their ARs for defensive purposes. However, most of them do not. Nor would they be able to do so if required. They have neither the gear, magazines or ammo on hand. Their talk about defensive use of their AR is nothing more than "cloud talk." A cheaply made AR will serve their purposes. However, back to J_W's comment, why build them cheap?
Part of these problems are related to alot of fields nowadays. People either do not know how to do the job right or have no pride in their work.
You see it everywhere.
It's true, regardless of how you use the stick, you should expect to get a quality product--especially if you payed more for what you would expect to be quality.
Alot of problems arise when people buy the cheap knockoff stuff or low rate parts that are priced accordingly and try to put them to true use and wonder why the stuff doesn't work.
I gotta agree with Grant here. Those M-4 cuts just look plain shitty. Functional perhaps but I'd never accept it. More importantly, that gas key way is totally unacceptable and stands a very good chance of coming loose.
To say that hey all these guys are just hobbyist who only shoot a few hundred rounds through their piece is a poor attempt to excuse a main line AR mfg. of shoddy workmanship. If we all said, hey my customer is just a hobby guy so I can slack on the quaility of my product, it would be a sad state of affairs.
If I may backtrack a moment to the BCG issue, this is the CMT BCG I have. Is this an appropriate key staking job?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/ISAIAH53/CMTBCG002.jpg
Negative.
...The reality is that for probably 95% (maybe even 99%) of non-LEO civilian owners, "almost as good" really is "good enough".
If I may backtrack a moment to the BCG issue, this is the CMT BCG I have. Is this an appropriate key staking job?
No.
-55
NO!
You are welcome to send me be the BCG to be staked.
C4
John_Wayne777
01-04-07, 10:12
If I may backtrack a moment to the BCG issue, this is the CMT BCG I have. Is this an appropriate key staking job?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/ISAIAH53/CMTBCG002.jpg
They aren't supposed to deform the screw-heads, so no....
Pat_Rogers
01-04-07, 17:22
Rob S says,
I think the best solution is to have an equipment check at the start of the class, and properly stake keys that aren't, lube guns that aren't, and address any other easily-fixed yet oft-recurring problems.
We tried that, but it eats up a fair amount of time at the beginning of the class. I have an article on my website "Coming to Class" where i specifically state that people should bring serviceable guns/ magazines/ ammunition etc to class.
There is only so much hand holding that i am willing to do. Lack of common sense adversely effects everyone no matter which end it is played out on.
However, not everyone that has a problem is a window licker.
Good guys, very sharp in their trade may have problems due to life cycle issues. Sometime feces happens.
However, most issues occur because people buy just a good as for a variety of reasons, or are not aware of certain issues- another reason why people attend gun skul.
You may have noticed that neither Mike nor I had more than a few minutes down time during the 3 days, and that is how it should be. People are paying money to learn, and part of that process is to talk face to face with the instructors and get first hand info that may not be available elsewhere.
I can state that certain brands may be more prone to problems at the start of every class, but that doesn't mean that any given bushamster will die or Colt/ LMT will work flawlessly.
I see Orlite mags that work. Denny Hansen had an Oly that ran through several classes.
I have seen guys shoot Greek ammo and Wolf ammo and even some Main Cartridge ammo w/o problems.
I haven't seen any PCA work, though one magazine swears that it is the best thing since sliced bread.
Bottom line is this. People have to be responsible for their actions. Driving a car, operating a gun or buying baby clothes.
Suggestions can be heeded or ignored, but most often people are unaware of issues before hand.
Training classes are adult education opportunities.
Nothing drives home a point more readily than failing at something (anything).
I'd prefer everyone showed up with top notch everything, but for the open classes, that is just a wish.
My boss and I took our first proper fighting course in Aug2005 (I got to stack with KevinB):D . We spent the prior 60 days sorting out our guns and gear, my view was that given the expense involved in taking a course there was NO excuse for us to show up with shitty equipment and price tags still on our webbing. I simply did not want to be "that guy" who held the class back, I wish others had done the same. Kevin, you unfecked the gun so quick we didn't even take notice dude.:cool:
Pat_Rogers
01-04-07, 18:16
Sparrow, you make an excellent point, and in a perfect world that would be the "A" answer.
For most of the open classes, most of the average Joe's- earth people- are gainfully employed in real jobs and may not have the time or incentive to do as you suggest.
I would strongly prefer that everyone have GTG gear and a switched on mind, but perfection exists only in certain portions of northern Europe and only from certain companies.
In the meantime, we'll just keep educating people by whatever means available.
extended feed ramps on my CMMG (look to be machined prior to finishing):
http://mysite.verizon.net/tlinderman/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/dsc01798.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/tlinderman/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/dsc01805.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/tlinderman/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/dsc01809.jpg
LMT enhanced BCG staking:
http://mysite.verizon.net/tlinderman/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/lmt_enhanced_bcg.jpg
And machining them like that without knowing where the friggin' barrel will end up is exactly why a rifle I built for a friend wouldn't run the first day. LMT M4 ramps did not line up with them and I had to file that extra metal you see in the CMMG extension out so the Radway wouldn't get caught on it.
Steve- If M4 ramps aren't necessary, then RRA should really be chastized for scarring a rifle while trying to put them in as an afterthought. Why the F%^& are they STILL doing that shit?
I think where some of the "discussion" occurs is when it starts to sound like "all brand X AR's are crap"
I liked Pats statement
"that doesn't mean that any given bushamster will die or Colt/ LMT will work flawlessly"
I know that my own narrow experience does not amount to a statistically significant sample size but.............
I actually own an RRA carbine that was (apparently) built on a "good day"
My local shop did not have any colts...they basically sold Bushmasters, and occaisonal Armalite and RRA.
I looked at them all and picked the RRA
While my key is not staked to MOACKS levels it appears to be sufficent
And after more than 7,000 rounds mine is still tight and the the rifle runs like a top. A big day for me is around 500 rds and the average is more likely half that..and I shoot (on average) once a week unless the evil bill convinces me to play hooky in the morning ;)
I have no recollection of the appearance of my feed ramps but the short version is....they work.
So it becomes a little like reliability discussions...
I have two handguns that are both 100% reliable.....which is MORE reliable???
Would I buy another RRA based on some of this reporting....
Maybe Not
But not because they CAN'T make a good rifle
Maybe just because I want a better one
RAM Engineer
01-05-07, 16:24
So it becomes a little like reliability discussions...
I have two handguns that are both 100% reliable.....which is MORE reliable???
Easy answer. Without a statisticaly significant number of failures observed, you cannot know which one is more reliable. Reliability is about looking at past performance (or lack of in this case) and making extrapolations about future performance. Without having seen a significant number of failures in the past, you have NO information with which to forcast to any reasonable degree of certainty. Your only discriminator is that you have more confidence that the gun with MORE failure free rounds through it is more reliable.
Statistical Confidence is something that very important when you talk about probabilities.
Statistical confidence is also something that most people do not grasp.
I think where some of the "discussion" occurs is when it starts to sound like "all brand X AR's are crap"
I liked Pats statement
"that doesn't mean that any given bushamster will die or Colt/ LMT will work flawlessly"
I know that my own narrow experience does not amount to a statistically significant sample size but.............
I actually own an RRA carbine that was (apparently) built on a "good day"
My local shop did not have any colts...they basically sold Bushmasters, and occaisonal Armalite and RRA.
I looked at them all and picked the RRA
While my key is not staked to MOACKS levels it appears to be sufficent
And after more than 7,000 rounds mine is still tight and the the rifle runs like a top. A big day for me is around 500 rds and the average is more likely half that..and I shoot (on average) once a week unless the evil bill convinces me to play hooky in the morning ;)
I have no recollection of the appearance of my feed ramps but the short version is....they work.
So it becomes a little like reliability discussions...
I have two handguns that are both 100% reliable.....which is MORE reliable???
Would I buy another RRA based on some of this reporting....
Maybe Not
But not because they CAN'T make a good rifle
Maybe just because I want a better one
RRA and BM make good AR's and Colt/LMT make bad ones. It happens. What you have to look at is the big picture. Meaning, if I took 100 tier 2/3 AR's and 100 tier 1 AR's and ran them all the same. How many of the tier 2/3 AR's would hold up and how many of the tier 1 AR's would run well?
I had a fellow gunsmith call me today and we were discussing some of the things that RRA does wrong. Two of the items have been covered here already (dremel'd feed ramps and poor staking). This gentlemen was about to remove a RRA installed Receiver Extension (buffer tube) and remove a RRA factory installed YHM FF rail system. Both of these items were installed with red loctite! As we all know, red loctite and torque do NOT paint a very pretty picture. After lots of heat, 290 pounds of brute force and a 4 foot cheater bar the RE and rail came off. This is not how you build a quality AR IMHO.
C4
Blatant flaws and BS like that on the outside of so many RRAs mean they are also cutting corners in areas we can't easily see...
Blatant flaws and BS like that on the outside of so many RRAs mean they are also cutting corners in areas we can't easily see...
This is true IMHO.
C4
Glockster35
01-05-07, 21:44
Guys,
I want to thank you for posting this post. For nothing more than I was at one time of the belief that RRA was a good and reputable company. I am sure there are things they do right, but loctiting parts on an AR is not one of them.
I am so glad I went the route I went now.
Thanks again, from a consumer who would have never known, until it was far too late!
Guys,
I want to thank you for posting this post. For nothing more than I was at one time of the belief that RRA was a good and reputable company. I am sure there are things they do right, but loctiting parts on an AR is not one of them.
I am so glad I went the route I went now.
Thanks again, from a consumer who would have never known, until it was far too late!
oh please.......
oh please.......
Wow, defender of RRA to no end:confused:
HAMMERDROP
01-06-07, 11:41
- quality always dips during heightened production of any American product. Increased orders and managements demand for time tables to be kept cause this crap to occur unless morons are hired i.e crude staking and Dremeled feed ramps. Do you think the DEA's weapons look like that? ...just asking.
Fortunately for me my two RRA's we built during a time when there was a certain reliability mystique associated with RRA they did have a 'JobShop' status which is why BIGBORE defends them and I as well. Today I dont know nice people but do I want the above mentioned issues ...NO !
I have seen this same discussion take place on many occasions regarding one company or another this part or that color.
I am not making excuses for RRA these things should never happen and the Larsons' should make amends immediately and take steps to do things right. Deadlines...contracts ...bills ...payroll ...greed issues business owners must deal with before anything is put in a box and shipped but issues we do not want popping up under pressure and this is certainly where they will.
RRA hangs a hook and people bite it doesn't mean that person bought an inferior product overall. Actually I am sure
stevem@rockriverarms.com
would be interested in hearing any and all complaints what he can do I dont know but the squeaky wheel does get oiled by RRA I know this for a fact. Does the Chairman of the Board walk down on the production line @ Colt to see if thing are going OK? When I was a teen-ager I used to do piece work in a factory making Contour Chairs and I cannot believe QC used to pass the frames we put together, we met our goals though. And if I would have approached the owner and explained how far from spec things actually were he would have lost his ****ing mind, but the Corporate world seems to think haste and quality are attainable when combined.
I have about 3 thousands round on my RRA bolt carrier and bolt and I put a one piece gas ring on the bolt keep the firing pin channel free of carbon and she runs just fine but damn, Grant that is a good deal on your bolts ...
And I know mine might breakdown if those 3k rounds had been fired in the course of 24 hours but I pray I dont have to ever run it that hard and in the next life when I am a jillion-aire I will own ALL top-notch forum accepted Tier 1 gear I know what it is NOW... but I am happy the Good Lord saw fit to provide me with what I have.
I want the Hummer but got the Explorer thats just the way it goes for some guys.
I realize everyone on the .net is a professional gunfighter, who pushes their “weapons” to extremes in preperation for the ultimate show down, but get over it.
I don’t agree with what RRA does with a dremmel, no matter how nice/evenly they do it. It shouldn’t be done, it’s not necessary, and doesn’t help anything. On the other side of the coin, it’s not going to hurt anything either, no matter how bad it looks.
The carrier doesn’t seem to be staked as well as some, but I’d be willing to bet it would have held for a lifetime of semi auto use.
Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Some poor kid whose carbine has been running flawlessly is going to see these pics and think something is actually wrong with his carbine and stay up all night worrying he isn’t prepared for the zombies!
It seems like people are going out of their way to stir up shit. This stuff is not as bad as they make it out to be. They just want to be the guys that know and make people think that they know everything. It is internet grandstanding.
Oh man...thanks Grant for posting this thread, first you knock my S.I.R. (and tell all why ARMS is a suck company)...then you have to go and BLAST my RRA M4gery:(
but I pulled it out of the case to double check it and I'm happy to report that my carrier was staked very well, and the feed ramps are pretty smooth and even(even if they did rip the anodizing off).
I'm still happy with mine though...it shoots like a laser(and now I'm saving for a "TDP" gun like you all keep talking about.
Whats next...are you going to tell me my 870 and my Kimber 1911's are scrap metal too;)
I know the feeling
- Do you think the DEA's weapons look like that? ...just asking.
Dunno. The agents I work with are carrying M4s. But a couple of batches I've seen of the "Government Model" DEA-spec carbine, and numerous commercial guns, do look like that pictured.
I think you have to define this argument based on what you really want to achieve with your M-4 build. Many guys here agree that a weapon built as close to tier 1 or the TDP as possible is the goal. They are interested in serious, life or death work with this weapon, and their equipment and training reflect this. The fact that they are not LE/mil is irrelevant. It's the mindset you bring to the table that counts, not your job title. Some make fun of them, calling them ersatz "gunslingers", when the fact of the matter is armed citizens are in many cases more qualified than their LE/mil counterparts. They train for the possiblity, however remote, that one day their skills may be required. Yes, even with a carbine.
Then there are the others, the vast majority of AR owners, who for whatever reason own and shoot these rifles. Whenever the discussion on reliability comes up, they are dragged into the fray as examples of why none of this "high-end crap" is really required. They don't really "need" an utterly reliable weapon. And the really serious folks, without some kind of credentials, are lumped in with them as wannabe cowboys.
So what this is all about is the REASON you own a M-4. I think any person, regardless of job status, who really wants to learn how to fight with this weapon, will want the best possible weapon he can obtain, with the best possible support equipment, and most importantly of all, the best training he can obtain. It doesn't matter if he is facing imminent danger or not. It's about being prepared as a 2d ammendment rifleman for whatever eventuallity that may or may not come.
If you define this argument from this basic premise, all this other chaff about "needs", creds, or whatever don't hold water.
So with this in mind, return to Grant's original post. Would you want to stake your life on this rifle? I would upgrade this rifle with a BCM or LMT upper. I would replace the whole BCG with a CMT or LMT MPI'd bolt ass'y, and a BC with a properly staked keyway. In fact, when I was done, the only original part left would be the stripped lower.
I would assume that everyone here is a serious student of combat weaponcraft. This whole idea of whether you need a tier 1 or equivalent weapon would seem to be a no-brainer. Yet it continues to pop up.
I think there is very credible evidence that building a carbine to the TDP spec is a very good idea. Do I have irrefutable evidence and statistics to prove this? No. But I think any reasonable person who makes a study of the issue will reach this conclusion. Annecdotal evidence from reputable trainers suggests that it is so. So based on the best evidence available, I have reached this conclusion. My assumption is that anyone else who takes the time and trouble to study this issue, including formal training would reach the same conclusion.
It is hard to tell for sure but the barrel extension on the RRA that Grant started this post about does not even look like it has M4 ramps and the upper is dremel cut slightly to give the impression that it does. Same goes for the one Koalorka has pictured. The ramps cut into the extension seem to end at the edge of the outside circumference of said extension as in std. rifle ramps. M4 ramps needed to be cut by hand into both the extension and the upper:eek: The idea that anyone should get an "M4" put together this way is absurd.
I am an enthusiast and armed civilian that is always looking for the most reliable and best way with regards to all my gear. The gun that is a copy of the military weapons of the day and "purchased by DEA" should run for the rest of my life unless it is used hard and not maintained. The argument that it is good enough to let that kind of workmanship hit the street is BS! RRA should be ashamed of themselves for letting that kind of fluff pass as hand made M4 ramps. The stake job is obviously not good enough, but comes much closer to acceptable and/or understandable than the half assed attempt to make someone think they are getting M4 feed ramps that they don't even need!
My personal experience is with an RRA carbine that needed a hammer and punch to open and take down for cleaning and put back together. Upper and lower pin holes were way beyond slightly out of alignment. It was hammered together and shipped out as if that was ok??????????
:confused: Billy
Well, one thing that has emerged from this discussion is any vendor can have a bad day at the factory and screw up, for whatever reason. So having a good armorer like Ken Elmore go through your piece, check and fine tune everything might not be such a bad idea. Even for your prancing ponies. Or do it yourself if you have the tools and skills. Perhaps this is the one ingredient missing from most homebuilds that gives them such a bad rep.
On RRA, well, that M-4gery job was bad. That upper should have been shit-canned and done over. Doesn't matter if you think M-4 cuts are required or not. People want them and they should be done right.
On the BCG, you could give them a pass on that, since hardly anyone gets that right, but here again, this is one of the critical points that you should inspect and make right when doing your reliablity package.
FWIW -- I wont ever buy RRA no matter what --
Remember back to their "M1993" spec receiver where they goofed on the Picatinny rail and then made up BS about it being the new US Army spec?
Nuff said about any company that could pull that sort of BS.
FWIW -- I wont ever buy RRA no matter what --
Remember back to their "M1993" spec receiver where they goofed on the Picatinny rail and then made up BS about it being the new US Army spec?
Nuff said about any company that could pull that sort of BS.
Holy Crap. You're kidding, I hope.:eek:
I have 4 RRA lowers that I bought when they were trying for the DEA contract for my own builds. They are great. Since then I have seen a dealer selling RRA 2nds as finish defect only. He gets cases of them. Well I buy one . Out of spec in the take down pins. Went back and checked some others he had. Same thing . An upper sits too high on the lower with pins in place. There was one in the case I bought cuase dimensionaly was ok. Just scratched. All this tells me RRA is has gotten sloppy and pawning there scrap off as blems. I do not know anything about their complete rifles.
So having a good armorer like Ken Elmore go through your piece, check and fine tune everything might not be such a bad idea. Even for your prancing ponies.
Except that Ken only offers this service on Colts. he won't work on anything else, at least that's what his website says. And I always wondered what teh value of this service is when it's only performed on the models that are GTG out of the box, at least that's the conventional wisdom. To me it would make much more sense to offer this service for your standard BM/RRA since those are the units coming off the assembly line that need a thorough going over.
Or do it yourself if you have the tools and skills. Perhaps this is the one ingredient missing from most homebuilds that gives them such a bad rep.
Agreed. If nobody with the skills on Ken Elmore is willing to offer this service then it's probably going to be contingent upon ourselves to inspect, correct, and/or build it in right the first time.
It all boils down to PRIDE do you think our grandfathers would have built a product like that! HELL NO!!! a lot were old school craftman. Do It right the frist time the best you can do. That is long gone in america today. Thats why china is taking over so many products. and people buy it! Yester day I had to go to the local auto part store browsing I found the a great little pair of pliers $1.99 made in china but you should see the quality. Look out folks!!! Were loosen it! Pride I think theres a little still around some where!~~~:(
Dport -- nope -- there was a huge thread(S) on ARF.com about it several years ago. Made me sick to my stomach -- worse they did not replace the uppers when it finally broke.
It seems like people are going out of their way to stir up shit. This stuff is not as bad as they make it out to be. They just want to be the guys that know and make people think that they know everything. It is internet grandstanding.
If this was directed at me, you are mistaken.
C4
Well, one thing that has emerged from this discussion is any vendor can have a bad day at the factory and screw up, for whatever reason. So having a good armorer like Ken Elmore go through your piece, check and fine tune everything might not be such a bad idea. Even for your prancing ponies. Or do it yourself if you have the tools and skills. Perhaps this is the one ingredient missing from most homebuilds that gives them such a bad rep.
On RRA, well, that M-4gery job was bad. That upper should have been shit-canned and done over. Doesn't matter if you think M-4 cuts are required or not. People want them and they should be done right.
On the BCG, you could give them a pass on that, since hardly anyone gets that right, but here again, this is one of the critical points that you should inspect and make right when doing your reliablity package.
Every manufacturer puts out lemons (no doubt). The thing we are really talking about here is poor craftmanship. ALL RRA uppers have dremel'd cuts in the receiver. There is no reason for this at all. To add insult to injury, RRA loctites their receiver extensions in. All they have to do is properly torque the castle nut and stake it. I do this on all the lowers I build and it takes me all of 2minutes to do everything correctly! I guess it is easier to just squirt some loctite onto the threads and let the next guy worry about it. :rolleyes:
C4
FWIW -- I wont ever buy RRA no matter what --
Remember back to their "M1993" spec receiver where they goofed on the Picatinny rail and then made up BS about it being the new US Army spec?
Nuff said about any company that could pull that sort of BS.
I remember that. It was classic!
C4
The purpose of this thread was to educate shooters on how RRA is building AR's. I believe it is a sin to build AR's the way they do (dremel ramps, poor carrier staking, loctite on the RE) and is why I do not stock them (nor will I).
If folks believe that these AR's are "good enough" for their use, then great, but at least they know what they getting and how it is SUPPOSED to be done.
C4
You see, what alot of manufactures rely on regardless of what they make is people just want a product with no intent of really using them. The stuff is priced accordingly- normally.
Some of these manufactures haven't changed what they make and offer. They used to be the only game in town, now they're not and haven't realized it yet.
Some buy cheap because thay may not be able to afford more, but this cost more in the long run. Some just want wall hangers, some want a "Plinker" Some want what Govt agency X has and don't really get it.
Agreed that anything can break and wear out, always will be the occasional lemon. But, but, with those chances are lessoned with certain ones and we can all name them.
I think there's alot of people that really use their stuff here and I think there's alot that say they do and never do. Like the ones who say "I shoot 500 to 1000 rounds everyweek"
That statement covers the number of guns sold and not returned mindset. Of course it doesn't break when shot a few times a year with ideal conditions.
Grant, thanks for the heads up on real problems. I hope that the nay-sayers will not stop any of us from telling it like it is with regards to QC or the use of inferior material or methods. The more info that gets out about all brands the better for all of us to know!!!!!!!!!! Obviously the good experiences far outway the bad and it seems negative to talk about brand X and the faults, but we all need to know as much as possible to make the most informed decisions for future purchases. Keep the information coming.
Thanks, Billy :)
If this was directed at me, you are mistaken.
C4
Not you in general. Just this whole place. I was excited to find this place but now I dont come around as much because 99% of what goes on around here is product bashing. Dont buy Oly,BM,RRA,Stag,S&W etc. Buy Colt or your manhood will falloff. You found a problem on 1 RRA and made it a internet wide problem with a few keystrokes. If you found a problem like this on a colt or one of your approved brands would you make this big of a deal out of it or would you quietly sweep it aside to keep from ruining the lore of the great ones? Their just seems to be alot of onesidedness on this stuff. This just reminds me of how all the Glock guys would always claim product faults with the XD. The XD is sooo bad blah, blah. My favorite was a guy who said he wouldnt buy the XD over his Glock because it was foreign made. Guess he thought Austria is part of the USA.:cool: That may not be the case here but it feels like it somehow.
mike
Mike,
IF it where a one of, it would be bashing, however since they do have numerous QC issues since the get go - its more of a warning to potential buyers.
This site gravitates more to the defensive use of the M16FOW (family of weapons) [or offensive for some] - as such QC issues which may be of little issue to the casual shooter or bump firing yahoo, are taken seriously here.
Not you in general. Just this whole place. I was excited to find this place but now I dont come around as much because 99% of what goes on around here is product bashing. Dont buy Oly,BM,RRA,Stag,S&W etc. Buy Colt or your manhood will falloff. You found a problem on 1 RRA and made it a internet wide problem with a few keystrokes. If you found a problem like this on a colt or one of your approved brands would you make this big of a deal out of it or would you quietly sweep it aside to keep from ruining the lore of the great ones? Their just seems to be alot of onesidedness on this stuff. This just reminds me of how all the Glock guys would always claim product faults with the XD. The XD is sooo bad blah, blah. My favorite was a guy who said he wouldnt buy the XD over his Glock because it was foreign made. Guess he thought Austria is part of the USA.:cool: That may not be the case here but it feels like it somehow.
mike
There are some threads around here that you really should read. One of the things I find refreshing here, is the lack of Colt worship. Colt makes a fine weapon, but they are not the be all end all, and are not perfect. There's more than one thread here pointing that out. I find that most of the folks here, or so it appears to me, are more focused on what works and doesnt work, regardless of who makes it.
Not you in general. Just this whole place. I was excited to find this place but now I dont come around as much because 99% of what goes on around here is product bashing. Dont buy Oly,BM,RRA,Stag,S&W etc. Buy Colt or your manhood will falloff. You found a problem on 1 RRA and made it a internet wide problem with a few keystrokes. If you found a problem like this on a colt or one of your approved brands would you make this big of a deal out of it or would you quietly sweep it aside to keep from ruining the lore of the great ones? Their just seems to be alot of onesidedness on this stuff. This just reminds me of how all the Glock guys would always claim product faults with the XD. The XD is sooo bad blah, blah. My favorite was a guy who said he wouldnt buy the XD over his Glock because it was foreign made. Guess he thought Austria is part of the USA.:cool: That may not be the case here but it feels like it somehow.
mike
I think you might be mistaking M4C with another forum. Manufacturer bashing is not allowed (within reason). Meaning that if you buy a product and it is defective and have NOT contacted the manufacturer FIRST for assistance, do not come on here to bitch about them. If you believe that the pics of that RRA I posted is a fluke, you need to look at more RRA AR's as it is NOT a fluke!
Tier one AR's are going to be more popular on a professional forums. The other AR's you mentioned are NOT tier one AR's. The tier two/three AR's are not trash and would never tell anyone NOT to buy one, but to simply be aware of their shortcomings. This is called consumer awareness and is the same reason why millions of people subscribe to magazines like consumer reports. In that mag, they tell you which car is better than another, based on reliability and resale value. Is it product bashing to state such things? I don't think so.
As far as Colt goes, I am not a big fan of theirs and don't own any of their products. I much prefer to "roll my own" than buy a factory built AR. I would also say, that I have most likely owned more RRA AR's than a lot of people and have owned them from day one (as my second AR was a RRA).
C4
There are some threads around here that you really should read. One of the things I find refreshing here, is the lack of Colt worship. Colt makes a fine weapon, but they are not the be all end all, and are not perfect. There's more than one thread here pointing that out. I find that most of the folks here, or so it appears to me, are more focused on what works and doesnt work, regardless of who makes it.
No company makes a perfect AR 100% off the time (not even Colt). They do turn out a tier one weapon though and is one of the best factory built AR's around.
Colt kool-aid is not passed around at M4C.
C4
Not you in general. Just this whole place. I was excited to find this place but now I dont come around as much because 99% of what goes on around here is product bashing. Dont buy Oly,BM,RRA,Stag,S&W etc. Buy Colt or your manhood will falloff. You found a problem on 1 RRA and made it a internet wide problem with a few keystrokes. If you found a problem like this on a colt or one of your approved brands would you make this big of a deal out of it or would you quietly sweep it aside to keep from ruining the lore of the great ones? Their just seems to be alot of onesidedness on this stuff. This just reminds me of how all the Glock guys would always claim product faults with the XD. The XD is sooo bad blah, blah. My favorite was a guy who said he wouldnt buy the XD over his Glock because it was foreign made. Guess he thought Austria is part of the USA.:cool: That may not be the case here but it feels like it somehow.
mike
Mike, I've been noticing you jump between this thread and the Olympic thread and if you're basing your claim of product bashing on those two threads you haven't read enough. In fact, since this forum started that's the only Olympic thread (there might have been one other) we've had so calm down.
If you spend a little more time here you'll notice that MANY of the members here are professional trainers or industry insiders. When they talk about Bushmasters or Olympics they are basing their opinions on their history of seeing dozens if not hundreds of them and not a single incident. I don't form opinions based on one thread alone. Instead opinions should be formed after reading numerous threads on the subject, understand who the poster/thread starter is and their background and your own first hand knowledge. If you have a different opinion based on FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE, please share it.
If Pat Rogers says 10 guys showed up at one of his classes with Bushmasters and 8 gas keys were loose that's a trend that needs attention and is not manufacture bashing. Was that an isolated incident? If you read on I think you'll see it's a trend with Bushmaster and not a one time thing. If you take this thread into consideration with the experiences of many members here you'll understand what we are trying to accomplish; education.
Thread like this one are to be used to educate. If I owned a Bushmaster or RRA I would not take these threads personally. However, I would use them to ensure my particular carbine did not have these deficiencies and I would correct them if they did. That's the intent.
Mike, I've been noticing you jump between this thread and the Olympic thread and if you're basing your claim of product bashing on those two threads you haven't read enough. In fact, since this forum started that's the only Olympic thread (there might have been one other) we've had so calm down.
If you spend a little more time here you'll notice that MANY of the members here are professional trainers or industry insiders. When they talk about Bushmasters or Olympics they are basing their opinions on their history of seeing dozens if not hundreds of them and not a single incident. I don't form opinions based on one thread alone. Instead opinions should be formed after reading numerous threads on the subject, understand who the poster/thread starter is and their background and your own first hand knowledge. If you have a different opinion based on FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE, please share it.
If Pat Rogers says 10 guys showed up at one of his classes with Bushmasters and 8 gas keys were loose that's a trend that needs attention and is not manufacture bashing. Was that an isolated incident? If you read on I think you'll see it's a trend with Bushmaster and not a one time thing. If you take this thread into consideration with the experiences of many members here you'll understand what we are trying to accomplish; education.
Thread like this one are to be used to educate. If I owned a Bushmaster or RRA I would not take these threads personally. However, I would use them to ensure my particular carbine did not have these deficiencies and I would correct them if they did. That's the intent.
Amen Marc. My biggest hope with this thread is that people will learn to look over their AR more carefully to make sure everything is correct and if it isn't, they will fix the problem.
C4
Mike, I've been noticing you jump between this thread and the Olympic thread and if you're basing your claim of product bashing on those two threads you haven't read enough. In fact, since this forum started that's the only Olympic thread (there might have been one other) we've had so calm down.
If you spend a little more time here you'll notice that MANY of the members here are professional trainers or industry insiders. When they talk about Bushmasters or Olympics they are basing their opinions on their history of seeing dozens if not hundreds of them and not a single incident. I don't form opinions based on one thread alone. Instead opinions should be formed after reading numerous threads on the subject, understand who the poster/thread starter is and their background and your own first hand knowledge. If you have a different opinion based on FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE, please share it.
If Pat Rogers says 10 guys showed up at one of his classes with Bushmasters and 8 gas keys were loose that's a trend that needs attention and is not manufacture bashing. Was that an isolated incident? If you read on I think you'll see it's a trend with Bushmaster and not a one time thing. If you take this thread into consideration with the experiences of many members here you'll understand what we are trying to accomplish; education.
Thread like this one are to be used to educate. If I owned a Bushmaster or RRA I would not take these threads personally. However, I would use them to ensure my particular carbine did not have these deficiencies and I would correct them if they did. That's the intent.
I will concede. I will keep my mouth shut when I hear how bad everything is. ;) Will that be acceptable?
I will concede. I will keep my mouth shut when I hear how bad everything is. ;) Will that be acceptable?
If you have something to contribute, please do so. If your experiences are different from others in this thread (and the other ones) feel free to share them. First hand experience is always preferred however. If we openly discuss the good, along with the bad, we might learn something we didn't know before. That's the goal right?
This forum was started so everyone could discuss these types of issues in a respectful, professional and mature environment regardless of opinion. If you don't think philosophy suites you then you might be better off on another site.
If you have something to contribute, please do so. If your experiences are different from others in this thread (and the other ones) feel free to share them. First hand experience is always preferred however. If we openly discuss the good, along with the bad, we might learn something we didn't know before. That's the goal right?
This forum was started so everyone could discuss these types of issues in a respectful, professional and mature environment regardless of opinion. If you don't think philosophy suites you then you might be better off on another site.
Did you not notice the wink? All is good. I listened to what you had to say. Dont banish me off the board for agreeing with you. Geez:confused:
Did you not notice the wink? All is good. I listened to what you had to say. Dont banish me off the board for agreeing with you. Geez:confused:
That's it, you're gone!
j/k :D
It sounds like RRA quality has slid
Which would explain why some of us have rifles built by them that exhibit none of the defects listed
As in there was no loctite on my receiver extension, adequate staking job, etc.
It sounds like RRA quality has slid
Which would explain why some of us have rifles built by them that exhibit none of the defects listed
As in there was no loctite on my receiver extension, adequate staking job, etc.
I think as manufacturers push to get more AR's out the door, bad things happen.
RRA has NEVER made a mil-spec weapon, but their older AR's had good fit/finish and high QC.
C4
To Rob and Grant and anyone else involved in the idea of whether or not people think about having to defend themselves with their rifle- most people actually fantasize about the situation, not just think about it once or twice.
Grant- what you said about not trashing a company until you've contacted them. That reminds me- I have a lot more SW bashing to do since they basically told me their gun was too much of a POS to fix and I wasn't worth enough to them as a customer for them to do any more than just give me money...
To Rob and Grant and anyone else involved in the idea of whether or not people think about having to defend themselves with their rifle- most people actually fantasize about the situation, not just think about it once or twice.
Grant- what you said about not trashing a company until you've contacted them. That reminds me- I have a lot more SW bashing to do since they basically told me their gun was too much of a POS to fix and I wasn't worth enough to them as a customer for them to do any more than just give me money...
I think you are right about your first statement. I have played the "red dawn" scenario over in my head several times. :D
Roger the SW.
C4
Submariner
01-21-07, 18:25
DPMS has issued an Ammunition Warning. (http://www.dpmsinc.com/support/warning.aspx)
If their rifles won't feed the listed ammunition one must wonder about their rifle's serviceability.:rolleyes:
DPMS reportedly uses a "match" chamber, so 5.56x45 loads are probably not appropriate in their barrels.
Submariner
01-21-07, 19:15
DPMS reported uses a "match" chamber, so 5.56x45 loads are probably not appropriate in their barrels.
DPMS recommends the use of high quality, domestically produced ammunition for best results and highest accuracy. For plinking and practice, we recommend only domestic, commercially manufactured ammunition or high quality surplus NATO specification ammunition.
NATO spec ammunition should work in their rifles. They say so.:D
NATO spec ammunition should work in their rifles. They say so.:D
''Works fine in my M4 type. Have had no problems with it even with the Winchester stuff that is stamped WCC99. That ammo I did have some problems with in a Classic Sixteen I owned a few years ago with failures to extract. but that barrel was stamped .223.
Robb Jensen
01-22-07, 05:12
Fighting rifles/carbines should have 5.56mm NATO chambers, match chambers belong on SPRs, SAM-R type rifles & MATCH service rifles. The only exception to that I would say would be the Noveske, which in my experience works well with .223 Rem or 5.56mm NATO with no issues.
99.99% of us aren't good enough rifle shots to see the benefit from a match chamber accuracy at 7 to 200yds while shooting standing & kneeling w/5.56mm NATO ammo.
It has already been mentioned that a seemingly minor shortcut, half-baked job in the manufacture or assembly of a firearm, or unsightly something or other might suggest that other negative issues may exist with the "offending" company/individual. That said, I sent Grant my CMMG barrel and an MUR for proper assembly, to include a free-float rail. In his efforts to gently remove the FSB taper pin, this is what happened:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/ISAIAH53/FlattenedFSBPin.jpg
The barrel may truly be outstanding in every other respect, but... :confused:
Robb Jensen
01-25-07, 07:24
Wow that pin got pretty F'd up. For true taper pins I use a tool that Randall Rausch gave me. It's just a simple piece of steel that has a hole it in to allow the pin to move as I hold it on the right side of the FSB pin to allow the vise to nudge it over to the right, once the pin moves it comes right out). I allows me to start the pins without hammering on them at all. The only ones I've never been able to break loose were CMT/Stag pins which are really in there and in backwards (they remove from the left side).
The tools works great on everything else (which includes Colt, Bushmaster, CMMG etc) for companies that use the non tapered pins (LMT, RRA, Armalite ect), I just soak a little in Kroil for 10-15min and use the FSB block from Brownells and a small combo Brownells plastic/brass hammer. These pins can push out/in from either side.
To save your FSB, you should drill the pin a little (use a drill press if possible) from the left side and then remove knock it out with a punch then replace it with a new taper pin (might as well do both, their pretty inexpensive).
... For true taper pins I use a tool that Randall Rausch gave me. It's just a simple piece of steel that has a hole it in to allow the pin to move as I hold it on the right side of the FSB pin to allow the vise to nudge it over to the right, once the pin moves it comes right out). I allows me to start the pins without hammering on them at all. The only ones I've never been able to break loose were CMT/Stag pins which are really in there and in backwards (they remove from the left side).
The tools works great on everything else (which includes Colt, Bushmaster, CMMG etc) for companies that use the non tapered pins (LMT, RRA, Armalite ect), I just soak a little in Kroil for 10-15min and use the FSB block from Brownells and a small combo Brownells plastic/brass hammer. These pins can push out/in from either side.
To save your FSB, you should drill the pin a little (use a drill press if possible) from the left side and then remove knock it out with a punch then replace it with a new taper pin (might as well do both, their pretty inexpensive).
Interesting post.
How about a picture of the tool you got from Randall?
Robb Jensen
01-25-07, 07:41
Interesting post.
How about a picture of the tool you got from Randall?
It's at work, I'll take a pic of it today and post a pic tonight.
Wow that pin got pretty F'd up. For true taper pins I use a tool that Randall Rausch gave me. It's just a simple piece of steel that has a hole it in to allow the pin to move as I hold it on the right side of the FSB pin to allow the vise to nudge it over to the right, once the pin moves it comes right out). I allows me to start the pins without hammering on them at all. The only ones I've never been able to break loose were CMT/Stag pins which are really in there and in backwards (they remove from the left side).
The tools works great on everything else (which includes Colt, Bushmaster, CMMG etc) for companies that use the non tapered pins (LMT, RRA, Armalite ect), I just soak a little in Kroil for 10-15min and use the FSB block from Brownells and a small combo Brownells plastic/brass hammer. These pins can push out/in from either side.
To save your FSB, you should drill the pin a little (use a drill press if possible) from the left side and then remove knock it out with a punch then replace it with a new taper pin (might as well do both, their pretty inexpensive).
I must remove hundreds of FSB's over a year. I have never seen one like the pic above. Three strikes and the pin was flat like a pancake. :( All I can figure out was that they must have gotten a bad batch of steel when they made the pins (as they shouldn't be this soft).
C4
AR15barrels
04-25-07, 03:13
In searching through the forum for references to my name I found this thread.
This should be a picture of the "pin popper" I gave to GotM4.
In fact, it's probably THE exact one as I only ever made 2 or 3 of these...
http://ar15barrels.com/tech/pin-popper.jpg
...a picture of the "pin popper" ...
Very good. Thanks for posting that.
In searching through the forum for references to my name I found this thread.
This should be a picture of the "pin popper" I gave to GotM4.
In fact, it's probably THE exact one as I only ever made 2 or 3 of these...
http://ar15barrels.com/tech/pin-popper.jpg
That is very cool! If you make any more, please let me know!
C4
That is very cool! If you make any more, please let me know!
C4
+1...
That is very cool! If you make any more, please let me know!
C4
Yeah, I'd be in line for one of those. As it is I'm considering fabbing something similar up myself, but I'm sure I'd just bugger it up.:D
I must remove hundreds of FSB's over a year. I have never seen one like the pic above. Three strikes and the pin was flat like a pancake. :( All I can figure out was that they must have gotten a bad batch of steel when they made the pins (as they shouldn't be this soft).
C4
The point is you let it get out of your shop like that.
The point is you let it get out of your shop like that.
Say what?
The point is you let it get out of your shop like that.
Actually, no I didn't. The customer sent me THEIR weapon and they were informed as soon as the issue was identified. This problem was not on our end, but the manufacturer.
C4
Actually, no I didn't. The customer sent me THEIR weapon and they were informed as soon as the issue was identified. This problem was not on our end, but the manufacturer.
C4
I can state that, that is the unequivocal truth, inasmuch as I am that customer.
Jay Cunningham
05-25-07, 14:01
The point is you let it get out of your shop like that.
Way to jump to a conclusion!
:eek:
AR15barrels
05-25-07, 19:27
Actually, no I didn't. The customer sent me THEIR weapon and they were informed as soon as the issue was identified. This problem was not on our end, but the manufacturer.
So who took the picture?
Who posted the picture?
Give all the details so you properly clear yourself.
If you emailed the customer the picture, even though you fixed it and made it right, then whoever posted this was just trolling.
If you sent it back that way, that's another story.
Even when someone sends something defective, I would always try to make it right.
In this case, I would have been stuck drilling out the mushroomed end of the taper pin and installing a new one.
Sometimes you gotta go above the call of duty, like when you gave the customer a MUR when his standard receiver broke. :cool:
Things like that keep the customers coming back and boy do they tell their friends...
So who took the picture?
Who posted the picture?
I took the pic and sent it to the customer so he knew what is was going on.
Give all the details so you properly clear yourself.
Honestly, I am not sure who you think you are or why you think it is your job to challenge me on something. I suggest you stay in your lane.
If you emailed the customer the picture, even though you fixed it and made it right, then whoever posted this was just trolling.
I actually called the customer and had a long discussion with them about what had happened and then sent them the pic as proof. Because the rockwell hardness was non-existant on these pins, I advised them to go straight back to the manufacturer as they got screwed.
If you sent it back that way, that's another story.
Even when someone sends something defective, I would always try to make it right.
In this case, I would have been stuck drilling out the mushroomed end of the taper pin and installing a new one.
I do as well as long as it isn't going to cost the customer more money and they could just have the manufacturer replace it for free.
Sometimes you gotta go above the call of duty, like when you gave the customer a MUR when his standard receiver broke. :cool:
Things like that keep the customers coming back and boy do they tell their friends...
If you have further input to this thread, I suggest you contact me offline as your comments/questioning is not appreciated.
C4
Mark LaRue
05-26-07, 12:27
Uh....neat tool Randall...
...we made those and also some wire-edm'd extra-heavy-weight drive-out models that you bolt the sight tower to before you strike.
M. LaRue
Glockster35
05-26-07, 12:32
To save myself from name calling or making false accusations (because I think this site is far too classy for that), I will say that I believe we have a troll ammong us! :confused:
Neat tool. I think I may attempt something similar myself for removing the pins on my BCM upper. I shouldn't be at all afraid of them mashing but I bet they're in there pretty damn good.
Neat tool. I think I may attempt something similar myself for removing the pins on my BCM upper. I shouldn't be at all afraid of them mashing but I bet they're in there pretty damn good.
I have probably removed more BCM FSB's off more BCM barrels than anyone else and can testify that the pins will not smash and are installed very well.
C4
Give all the details so you properly clear yourself.
.
I just gotta know where people got the idea that Grant makes his own FSB's and pins?:confused:
Mark LaRue
05-27-07, 10:16
Sometimes you gotta go above the call of duty, things like that keep the customers coming back and boy do they tell their friends...
Uh...Randall, they are paging you on another thread, stop dimpling that barrel and go see what they want.
(Sorry, I couldn't resist, the devil made me do it :D ML)
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