View Full Version : Officer Safety: Smith & Wesson M&P pistols
I just received the following via email. Came from the Los Angles Sheriff's Department.
FROM: XXXX 04/29/09 12:40:15
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT BROADCASTANNOUNCEMENT TRAINING BUREAU
WEAPONS TRAINING
TO: ALL CONCERNED PERSONNEL
SUBJECT: OFFICER SAFETY ALERT - SMITH & WESSON M&P PISTOLS
RECENT DEVELOPMENTS HAVE FORCED A DEPARTMENTAL RE-EVALUATION OF THE SMITH & WESSON 9MM M&P SEMI-AUTOMATIC PISTOL AS AN AUTHORIZED OPTIONAL HANDGUN FOR SWORN PERSONNEL.
EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE SMITH & WESSON 9MM M&P FULL SIZE PISTOL IS NO LONGER AN AUTHORIZED OPTIONAL ON-DUTY PISTOL.
EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE SMITH & WESSON 9MM M&P COMPACT PISTOL IS NO LONGER AN AUTHORIZED OPTIONAL OFF-DUTY PISTOL.
SINCE FIRST APPROVAL AS AN OPTIONAL PISTOL ON DECEMBER 10, 2008, THE FULL-SIZED AND/OR COMPACT VERSIONS OF THE 9MM SMITH & WESSON M&P PISTOL HAVE BEEN DEPLOYED BY 49 SWORN PERSONNEL ON AND OFF DUTY. ONE OF THESE PISTOLS WAS DELIVERED NEW WITH AN IMPROPERLY MACHINED BARREL THAT WOULD NOT EJECT SPENT CARTRIDGE CASINGS. ANOTHER OF THESE PISTOLS EXPERIENCED A BARREL FAILURE IN MID-APRIL OF THIS YEAR. AFTER FIRING LESS THAN 10,000 ROUNDS OF TRAINING AMMUNITION. THIS PISTOL BARREL BROKE INTO TWO PIECES JUST AHEAD OF THE FIRING CHAMBER.
ADDITIONALLY, A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF DEPUTY ACADEMY CLASS #XXX RECRUITS WITH ISSUED NEW SMITH & WESSON 9MM M&P FULL-SIZE PISTOLS HAVE EXPERIENCED PHASE-2 PISTOL MALFUNCTIONS, CAUSED BY SPENT CASINGS FAILING TO EXTRACT FROM BARREL CHAMBERS, DURING THE PAST TWO WEEKS OF TRAINING. CLASS #XXX RECRUITS WILL BE ISSUED BERETTA 92FS PISTOLS ON WEDNESDAY APRIL 29, 2009, AND THEIR M&P PISTOLS REMOVED FROM SERVICE.
PERSONNEL SAFETY AND RELIABLE EQUIPMENT REMAIN OUR PRIMARY CONCERNS.
DIRECT ANY QUESTIONS (removed for PERSEC) AT THE B.C. RANGE.
XXXXX X. XXXX, SHERIFF LRR/SNDG
S/F,
Jeff
Thanks for posting Jeff. I am hosting an M&P armorer's school on 05-06-09 at my agency. I will see what I can find out about this..............
I recently switched to the 45 and 45c, but we have several deputies carrying the 9mm full sized
Just to add, my brother works for Austin PD and they have had a number of problems with their M&P 40s since they adopted them last year. As for broken parts, the 40 seems to be breaking trigger return springs, slide release levers, and trigger bars in less than 10k rounds. Functions problems have been phase 2 malfunctions during training.
I thought that maybe this was an exception, not the rule for the M&Ps. Now I'm starting to wonder if it is unwise to recommend S&W to anyone desiring a serious duty pistol. My brother actually broke a trigger return spring while we were at the range together a couple of weeks back and he only has about 8k rounds through his. He's been shopping for a Sig, H&K, or Glock lately.
VooDoo6Actual
04-29-09, 17:26
This is going to be interesting.
Just to add, my brother works for Austin PD and they have had a number of problems with their M&P 40s since they adopted them last year....Now I'm starting to wonder if it is unwise to recommend S&W to anyone desiring a serious duty pistol.
I'm starting to wonder if .40's are just hard on guns in general. Glocks have spotty record, now S&W. I'm beginning to subscribe to using either a 9mm or a .45. Those two seems to have things worked out and most mfg's have their stuff together when it comes to those two.
NCPatrolAR
04-29-09, 18:47
hmmm, we arent seeing any major issues with our M&Ps. We've been running them for about 2 years now. Out of my 4 personal guns (4), 1 was having an issue with intermitent failures to fire. That was traced back to some custom work I had done to the pistol and was promptly fixed.
Wonder what the cause of the malfunctions might be.
Thanks for that dope. I was almost considering adding one to the arsenal.
Oops... I was going to sell my 9mm Baby Eagle with plans to buy the M&P 9...may have to tell my brother the deals off...waiting for more info.
I'm starting to wonder if .40's are just hard on guns in general. Glocks have spotty record, now S&W. I'm beginning to subscribe to using either a 9mm or a .45. Those two seems to have things worked out and most mfg's have their stuff together when it comes to those two.
Perhaps, but the incidents that LASO are experiencing are strictly with the 9mm M&Ps.
As long as the .40S&W is given the engineering it needs to remain reliable and durable, it will routinely last as long as most comparable 9mm pistols. Obviously it will be more heavy and more bulky to do this. One example is the S&W 4006. Both California and Colorado HP use them and have reported that many of their pistols are running strong in excess of 100k rounds. They still continue to use them. DHS reported that some of their Sig P229s are also in excess of 100k rounds and still running. DOI has been using P229 40s since 1993 and have also reported P229s around the 100k round count. It's all about giving the .40S&W the strength it needs, and manufacturer quality control......then of course proper maintenance and spring replacements at the proper round counts.
To be fair, it sounds more like manufacturing defect than something inherently wrong with the design itself. A bad batch of guns. For a pistol design to screw up that badly we would have heard issues sooner than this. Even a Glock 17 manufactured poorly can poop the bed.
But yeah, it sucks. This is S&W's opportunity to win back LEO's again. Then this happens.
Doesn't surprise me at all - I tried to like the M&P - bought 2, both in 9mm, 1 a full size and 1 a compact - neither were reliable, sold them both.
Will I EVER buy another S&W semi auto pistol again? Nope.
Beretta's (relatively) new 90two uses an integral recoil buffer to prolong service life in the .40 cal version. Guess the round was a bit hard on the basic 92 design.
The superior egonomics of the M&P and the good performance of so many individual guns quickly created a rush to endorse. Takes time to get a lot of guns in service and a lot of rounds through a lot of guns. I was sorely tempted but stuck with my battery of 6 Glock 9mm's, largely because I didn't want to have to invest in different mags and holsters, for maybe a small incremental advantage. This WILL be interesting HOPL.
varoadking
04-29-09, 20:13
I feel sorry for those poor bastards...no way in hell I'd want to carry a 92FS...
And I was just about to buy one tomorrow before the magazine offer expires... probably will anyway :)
Varo - I'm pretty sure Glocks in a variety of calibers are also options for them.
But the 92 FS is a pretty sweet pistola too IMO.
RogerinTPA
04-29-09, 20:28
I've broken 2 striker assemblies the full size 45 early on, but that was from dry firing without snap caps. Since then, the other 3 M&Ps (40, 9mm Full Size and 9c) a few FTFs on the 9c, using the harder, berden primers on Wolf ammo. The 9 Full Size runs like a champ. But, I only have about 4K rounds through each one. I maybe singing a different tune once I approach the 10K mark......Note to self, trade up at 9K!
The high round testing that Todd did seemed pretty impressive to me.
I've broken 2 striker assemblies the full size 45 early on, but that was from dry firing without snap caps. Since then, the other 3 M&Ps (40, 9mm Full Size and 9c) a few FTFs on the 9c, using the harder, berden primers on Wolf ammo. The 9 Full Size runs like a champ. But, I only have about 4K rounds through each one. I maybe singing a different tune once I approach the 10K mark......Note to self, trade up at 9K!
I didn't think dry firing was an issue with center-fire weapons?
The high round testing that Todd did seemed pretty impressive to me.
I agree
This may put a damper on my PT.com purchase. I hope info comes out soon.
Interestingly a friend was shopping for a 9mm handgun last fall. Going to a local gun store they did not have any M&P hanguns while having other Smith models, etc. When asked the owner told him that each one he had sold had been problematic, most requiring return to the factory. As a result he was no longer carrying them until the bugs were worked out. At the time I chalked it up to gun shop bull.
Disclaimer: I wasn't there, it is simply what my friend was told.
Powder_Burn
04-29-09, 21:00
Very bad news - I just started trading out otherwise satisfactory XD's for M&P's this week due to the expert guidance of this forum. Hopefully this and all of the broken striker reports turn out to be isolated. S&W also updated the mag followers recently and within this context it is making me paranoid....:mad: Is that a vision of Gaston I see ahead!?
RogerinTPA
04-29-09, 21:09
I didn't think dry firing was an issue with center-fire weapons?
There were problems with the M&Ps earlier on when they first came out and then a year or so after that. S&W was made aware of the issue and made a mod on the striker assemblies, making them more durable. I think Glock had the same issue. I remember the Manuals on both, saying not to dry fire without using snap caps.
FWIW, I thought the majority of the members on this site were above most of the comments we're seeing. Everyone cut the knee-jerk crap out already. Let's get some more information first. Check sample size. Compare it relatively. etc. etc. Be cool fellas.
There were problems with the M&Ps earlier on when they first came out and then a year or so after that. S&W was aware of the issue and made a mod on the striker assemblies. I think Glock had the same issue. I remember the Manuals on both, saying not to dry fire without using snap caps.
Gotcha. Thanks for the info.
So are LEOs experiencing mag drop issues with their M&P's too? I use to own an M&P40 and I had to send it back twice for that problem. I think they should of added that to the safety letter.
I loved the M&P but I had no use for it. I couldn't carry it and I couldn't use it for IDPA either because after shooting 4 rds, the mag would drop.
Interesting. Looking forward to Todds comments regarding this.
NCPatrolAR
04-29-09, 22:01
So are LEOs experiencing mag drop issues with their M&P's too? I use to own an M&P40 and I had to send it back twice for that problem. I think they should of added that to the safety letter.
I loved the M&P but I had no use for it. I couldn't carry it and I couldn't use it for IDPA either because after shooting 4 rds, the mag would drop.
The only mag drop issue I'm aware of was with some of the early .40 Compacts. I have yet to see it occuring with our full size guns.
Gents,
I posted the info above for nothing more than a FYI. It is not intended to be a slam on Smith & Wesson or the M&P pistol.
Those of us in law enforcement get these kind of email on a semi-regular basis, and they cover problems with firearms, ammo, protective gear, accessories for police vehilces, etc.
Something I have noticed over the years is that one agency may have nothing but problems with a pistol, and another agency (close to the same size) tells you that they are extreemly pleased with the performance and reliablity of the same pistol.
I don't know what causes this....ammo....production runs.....differing quality control at different times......etc.
I have seen several recruits in recent classes using M&P 9mm and .40 hand guns and haven't witnessed any problems. I have seen several 9mm, .40, and .45 M&P pistol in training classes. I only witness one that had a problem....it was a 9mm and there was something wrong with the trigger.
If I were considering a M&P, would the information above influence my decision to buy a M&P 9mm? Probably not.
If I owned a M&P 9mm, would I sell it because of the information above? No. Would I inspect the areas of the pistol that were problematic for LASD? Yes.
Every company has it's good days and it's bad days. No company is perfect and no product is perfect.
Use the platform that works best for you, and don't have a "knee jerk" reaction to the information posted above. If the gun doesn't run or the platform doesn't work for you, move on to something that is reliable and works for you.
Semper Fi,
Jeff
Sounds like a bad batch of barrels from the issues described in the memo. I doubt it is a inherent issue with the pistols design. I will be watching for S&W's response to this issue.
Marcus L.,
As far as your brother shopping for a replacement pistol, I would advise him to strongly reconsider looking at the Glock if he is indeed set on the .40cal. The Glock Model 22 specifically has seen & continues to see more feeding issues than probably any other widely issued .40cal duty pistol.
Gents,
I posted the info above for nothing more than a FYI. It is not intended to be a slam on Smith & Wesson or the M&P pistol.
Those of us in law enforcement get these kind of email on a semi-regular basis, and they cover problems with firearms, ammo, protective gear, accessories for police vehilces, etc.
Something I have noticed over the years is that one agency may have nothing but problems with a pistol, and another agency (close to the same size) tells you that they are extreemly pleased with the performance and reliablity of the same pistol.
I don't know what causes this....ammo....production runs.....differing quality control at different times......etc.
I have seen several recruits in recent classes using M&P 9mm and .40 hand guns and haven't witnessed any problems. I have seen several 9mm, .40, and .45 M&P pistol in training classes. I only witness one that had a problem....it was a 9mm and there was something wrong with the trigger.
If I were considering a M&P, would the information above influence my decision to buy a M&P 9mm? Probably not.
If I owned a M&P 9mm, would I sell it because of the information above? No. Would I inspect the areas of the pistol that were problematic for LASD? Yes.
Every company has it's good days and it's bad days. No company is perfect and no product is perfect.
Use the platform that works best for you, and don't have a "knee jerk" reaction to the information posted above. If the gun doesn't run or the platform doesn't work for you, move on to something that is reliable and works for you.
Semper Fi,
Jeff
I agree 100% with your last post, however I think the title of the original post is a bit inflammatory. When we put out "Officer Safety" bulletins it's because we have substantial information to believe a significant hazard is likely/possible. A simple advisory post might have been more prudent. I appreciate the info none the less.
The old SA 2 piece 1911 barrels occasionally separated into pieces...
dialM4murder
04-30-09, 01:11
Too bad, the M&Ps have outstanding ergos. I'm sure it was just a bad production run. Let us not forget the Indiana Glock 22 fiasco.
That being said, my next full size striker fired pistol will be the Glock 17 RTF2.
By the way, here in Ohio, Columbus and Cincinnati both have M&Ps. I haven't heard of any issues.
thopkins22
04-30-09, 02:23
The old SA 2 piece 1911 barrels occasionally separated into pieces...
Thanks for the info...still those were 2 piece barrels, the S&W to the best of my knowledge is not. Does this mean that we demand pistol barrels be HPT/MP tested like we do rifle barrels? May be an expensive, although decent idea. Of course I know nothing of metallurgy and even less of how metals react to pistol pressure.
As I said earlier, this to me is like everyone freaking out because a handful of people have some pig cough...I seriously doubt that it's anything warranting widespread concern. Though it brings home the fact that nothing is perfect and we should all put a minimum of several hundred rounds through a gun before staking our lives on it.
Until there is reason to believe that there is a design flaw or an ongoing manufacturing problem, we all need to calm down and look at the full record of the M&Ps which has been excellent, especially for a new gun.
The ergo on the M&P is outstanding and it truly sat comfortably in my hand. I still consider the M&P a "new" gun. Therefore, I will wait until they work out the issues and then I will definitely buy an M&P40c. Actually, I've been thinking about trading my G27 for one but I am a little hesitant since my G27 has been flawless. One day I will take the plunge.
BTW, the recoil felt less to me than my G23.
A handful* of M&P 9's having issues does not lead me to think that there is any problem with the design or with S&W. When that number starts becoming much higher percentage wise, and more widespread, then it may be something to be concerned about. To me, a report like this means that I carry on as usual, and just be observant for those issues to come up with mine and/or to grow in number general.
* Handful meaning this report is a very small, near insignificant, number when compared to the overall number of M&P 9's produced and in use.
OMG I AM SELLING ALL MY M&Ps!
Not.
Seriously, this community never ceases to amaze me. Out of the hundreds and hundreds of departments that are issuing a particular gun, one puts out a short "Officer Safety" memo that is incredibly short on detail and suddenly the sky is falling? Please, to everyone who said this will affect their next gun purchase, please post what car you drive. I'd like to find some examples of people having problems with that make/model just to see how long you last before stroking out.
First, I have zero contact with LASD so I cannot possibly begin to explain what is going on in this specific instance. Please don't read anything in my post to be an indictment of them.
Second, I've been the victim of these LE broadcasts many times before when at Beretta or SIG. As USMC03 said, they go across the wire fairly frequently. For a large agency with frequent industry contact, such things rarely happen in a vacuum. Either a rep isn't responding to complaints from the department, the factory isn't solving problems the department is reporting, or someone in the department has a personal motivation to give the manufacturer a black eye.
These sorts of reports usually come out of smaller departments where the FI staff doesn't really have any industry contact. They simply don't understand the concept of "bad batch" and immediately see a problem in their little bubble as earth shattering.
I know from personal experience that LASD has reached out to a gun company when problems occurred in the past. So there has to be something more going on here. There's a human politics element at play.
parishioner
04-30-09, 07:01
Of the 49 guns...
1 had an improperly machined barrel
1 had a barrely break in two
And then a "significant" number had some FTEs. (could have been something wrong with the ammo, maybe??)
I wouldnt panic just yet.
John_Wayne777
04-30-09, 07:44
I see that reason is beginning to take hold, but I'll add to the chorus anyway:
One memo like this does not a crisis make. Every handgun manufacturer on this planet has put out weapons that break in odd ways or that have some issues. I've personally seen it from Sig, H&K, Beretta, Glock (a BUNCH from Glock), Ruger, etc.
I've seen a picture floating around on TOS of an M&P with a broken barrel just like the article describes, but it was presented with zero context or explanation from the person who posted it. My guess is that now we have the back-story on that photo.
If there were a systemic problem with barrels snapping in two on the M&P platform, we'd have heard about it by now. There are a number of agencies issuing the weapons with satisfactory results so far.
Reports like this have to be weighed along with all the working guns in aggregate to get the big picture. The M&P's design was not birthed from the Blessed Virgin's womb. It is not manufactured by angels. As such, individual units can have issues just like any mass produced firearm.
Let's hope that Todd is right. The M&P is a new design, and with enough customer/agency use I'm sure that S&W is going to have to change some aspects of the design or materials as problems present themselves.
Todd,
I know that you mentioned that S&W is looking into the broken slide release problem. Any word on a solution?
Littlelebowski
04-30-09, 07:51
What would be really unusual is a widely issued pistol that never had one problem.
I know that you mentioned that S&W is looking into the broken slide release problem. Any word on a solution?
Not that I'm aware of. Given (1) the relatively low frequency, (2) the relatively low impact of the breakage, and (3) the easy maintenance solution of swapping the part regularly, I don't get the impression it's a top priority.
decodeddiesel
04-30-09, 09:24
Good grief, the chicken little knee jerk reactions in this thread are un-real. I agree with Lil'Dude here, name one widely issued service pistol that has never had one problem or bit of bad press.
Objects built by people be it pistols, jumbo jets, cars, M1 Tanks, etc. are prone to flaws, defects, and failures over a large enough cross sample. This is the nature of industry, this is why there are such things as warranties and even recalls. We're all humans here, and humans make mistakes. Let's see where this whole thing goes before we all start the lemming march to the sea.
If you think about it, if the consumer did not have the chicken little reaction when something goes wrong with a product, then the likely hood of the manufacturer correcting the problem is slim to none. I would consider it to be a priority to ensure such memos get into consumer circulation as it would likely result in a positive response from S&W to crack down on design and quality controls.
I am very disappointed that S&W considers a breaking slide release to not be important enough to correct. ANY parts breaking regularly before 20k rounds is unacceptable in a serious duty/defensive pistol. I'm really shocked that someone would consider otherwise. I guess S&W figures that their PR department can elevate sales enough to compensate for incidents like those from LASD and APD. From what I've read, LASD had several M&P armorers on staff who maintained the pistols according to S&Ws specifications. APD also has several armorers on staff that maintain their pistols according to specs.
I like the M&P design and want it to succeed......but it is important that the consumer react negatively to such cases as it will only improve on the M&P product.
Has anyone considered that the problem could be with a supplier of S&W and not S&W? Having spent 25 years in management in the steel industry, I can tell you straight out that the barrel problem could easily happen due to a bad heat of steel or a possible mix in steel. Either problem would be almost impossible for the manufacturer to detect under most conditions and the outcome can be castrophic. Having dealt with these issues many times, I can assure you one or even ten split barrels is no cause for alarm, as a typical heat (ie., one ladle full of molten steel made to a given specification - think of each heat as a cake mix- and weighing anywhere from 90 to 210 tons) can provide a whole lot of problems in the trade far worse than this.
I wouldn't rule out mixed steel.. Each heat is givin a unique identification code that stays with the product throughout our internal processing until delivery to the customer. After the heat is made it is poured to make solidified slabs, etc. and these are further processed in successive rolling mills until the bar stock is finally made to the customer order. (Remember, one heat of steel can end up on countless orders -- 210 tons is a lot of steel.) ANYWHERE along this route it is humanly possible to lose the material identification. Some companies are also better/more sophisticated at material I.D. than others. I've been to a number of sub-contractors who, based on our audits, were not used simply because of their inability to properly track material I.D. When this happens the wrong spec steel can arrive at the customer plant and cause untold mayhem, as there are vast differences in the mechanical properties of the vast array of steel specifications. Depending on the customer specs to their supplier regarding product testing, this may be easier to catch prior to shipment, but again, even with rather sophisticated tracking systems, material still gets out that shouldn't. This explanation is greatly simplified, but it does give you at least an idea of what can happen to product we receive as a finished product (in this case a pistol), and the manufacturere is complely unaware there is a problem and may not have been able to detect it until after shipment. I can assure you, most recalls you read about at automotive plants are a result of mistakes made PRIOR to reaching the assembly plant and most often come from the supplier base. (The exception to this is the Big 3 of course, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.)
I would consider it to be a priority to ensure such memos get into consumer circulation as it would likely result in a positive response from S&W to crack down on design and quality controls.
No, it won't. What it does, as evidenced by this thread, is freak a lot of people out who don't know the facts, don't understand the issues, and don't think rationally. You yourself are already assuming this is some kind of systemic problem that needs a fix. But when one agency reports a problem, especially with such a small number of guns, a company cannot simply revamp their entire production process to address the possibility that manufacturing was at fault. Guns would cost three times as much if companies put every part through every possible type of test and inspection.
I am very disappointed that S&W considers a breaking slide release to not be important enough to correct.
That's not even close to what I said. I said that from what I could tell, it isn't being given top priority. Do you understand what breaks, how, and what effect it has?
ANY parts breaking regularly before 20k rounds is unacceptable in a serious duty/defensive pistol.
I don't know a manufacturer that has a 20k cycle between regular maintenance replacement of at least some internal parts. Nor do I know many agencies or units that would put that many rounds through a gun so quickly that regular maintenance could not be performed.
TWhat is unreasonable about someone posting that they will hold off investing in a relatively new design until this clears out a little?
The polite answer, of course, is "it's not unreasonable."
The honest answer, however, is that it's completely unreasonable. Why?
Because if you discount every manufacturer that has ever been the subject of such a teletype, you've got no guns left to buy.
Because taking the experience of one agency with less than 50 guns as representative of the entire product line, especially in light of the hundreds of agencies successfully using the gun, is a piss poor job of weighing evidence.
Because when you don't know what ammo was shot through the guns, what maintenance was performed, what condition the guns were in, etc., you can't form anything approaching a logical conclusion.
The design has been in production and issued to LE agencies for four years now. You really believe that a department that's had the guns for four or five months (and less than 10k rounds) has stumbled onto some kind of systemic defect?
Yes, everyone should sell their spotty M&P's.... quick, get out from under them while you can. They're bad, they suck, they don't work.........
Sell them all.... quickly..... dump them while you can..... sell them..... all of them....... to me:D
I purchased my M&P 40 last weekend and fired 400 trouble free rounds. My only qualm is the trigger.
Having started out on 1911's (Springfield, Kimber and Customized Colt) i moved to Glock to avoid the cost of dealing with the reliability issues.
Never really liked the ergonomics of Glocks so i moved to the M&P. I have decided im going to practice with this gun until i get over the trigger disability.
The report of two guns having problems in a sea of M&P's is of no consequence to me. My Glock 22 blew up on me 5 years ago using hot reloads. It was my fault! I knew they had unsupported chambers and had heard about the kabooms. This didnt stop me from getting another one and firing 15,000 rounds through it with no problems. I changed the recipe of my reloads.
Besides this report, have any of us heard of this being systemic? NO! The decision between the major players still remains one of personal preference based on ergonomics not QC or reliability.
For those of you with better memories than me, did the Glock 17 have any early issues?
I purchased my M&P 40 last weekend and fired 400 trouble free rounds. My only qualm is the trigger.
Bowie and Burwell both get great reviews on their trigger work if you're interested and I believe both post on this forum.
For those of you with better memories than me, did the Glock 17 have any early issues?
You mean other than going off when impacting a hard object or being struck by a hard object, which led to the well-publicized non-recall recall? :rolleyes:
Or changes to the finish of various internal parts?
Or numerous mag design changes?
Or slide stop levers wearing out slide cuts?
Or firing pin blocks chipping and causing high incidence of misfires?
Add in the G19, and you've got the NYPD's "Phase III Malfunction" saga.
Add in the G22, and you've got functionality issues to this day being reported all over the place.
Add in the G23, and you've got all sorts of issues among agencies which later decided that a full size G22 was a better choice for plainclothes folks because of G23 reliability problems.
And don't even get me started on the whole kB! thing, which so many people are quick to blame on bad ammo regardless of how many times someone blows one up with factory ammo.
Does that make the Glock a POS? Absolutely not. Again, hundreds of agencies, countless thousands of people, use Glocks successfully. But if you mistakenly believe Glock (or any other manufacturer) rests on a pedestal above all the rest, immune from the vagaries of human failure, you're mistaken.
Thanks for the details. I never knew the G17 had that many warts - to me it's probably the epitome of out-of-the-box reliability, but I guess it took a while to get there.
Not to be unfair, let's not focus on just the Glock's early teething problems. The M&P had a major striker design change and still doesn't handle large volume dry fire without a snap cap. There was the mag drop problem. External finish issues. Poorly refinished chambers. Slide rail geometry had to be changed due to cracking on certain guns. And of course there is still the slide release lever issue mentioned above.
SIG? Holy cow. Broken frame rails were a huge problem for many years. Magazines unzipping. Fragile trigger bar springs. Safety levers breaking. More modern problems have included the P220 extractor fiasco, improperly manufactured takedown levers, out of spec trigger bars, the huge P229 40/357 recoil spring drama ...
Beretta? Can you say "locking block?" Trigger springs breaking. The 96-series guns were never as durable or reliable as their 9mm cousins and Beretta admitted it. All sorts of problems with the Cougars. The 9000S which got discontinued almost as quickly as the Colt All-American.
HK has had firing pin and trigger bar problems as well as some finish issues.
No one is immune. And before someone says "that's why I wait 3 (or 5 or 10 or 50) years before buying a new model," you're kidding yourself. For every teething problem a company has, it probably has two or three down the road once you'd think manufacturing was finalized. Change in parts vendors, change in materiel supplies, change in QC procedures, hell even change in packaging can have an effect.
And that's why you can't just look at one gun or one instance and jump to conclusions. A "proven" design is certainly better than an unproven one, but "proven" just increases your odds ... it's no guarantee. Test your gun and carry a backup.
Tell you what, all of your M&Ps are crap, I'll be glad to help you all out. Send them all to me before they blow up. Hurry. :p
Forwarded this to a buddy of mine. His agency authorizes a wide variety of handguns for duty use and he chose the full size M&P 9mm.
Last week he told me that during a current practice session for the upcoming quals, his M&P started having a reoccurring issue with light strikes. Department armorer looked at it and told him that he probably had some debris in the FP channel and to blow it out with a compressed air. My friend swears up and down that he keeps his piece clean. I don't know if he had shot his M&P since that time.
This thread is lots of fun. Two very extreme positions being debated openly. Man, I love this country. Now if only our government felt open debate was legal and healthy.
QuietShootr
04-30-09, 19:10
The superior egonomics of the M&P and the good performance of so many individual guns quickly created a rush to endorse. Takes time to get a lot of guns in service and a lot of rounds through a lot of guns. I was sorely tempted but stuck with my battery of 6 Glock 9mm's, largely because I didn't want to have to invest in different mags and holsters, for maybe a small incremental advantage. This WILL be interesting HOPL.
Agreed. I like the way they feel, and my 19s give me railroad-track abrasions after a few hundred rounds (I have a VERY high grip, a result of my preference for 1911s) that the M&P doesn't give me, but I have stuck with them for my hi-cap pistols.
varoadking
04-30-09, 20:11
There were problems with the M&Ps earlier on when they first came out and then a year or so after that. S&W was made aware of the issue and made a mod on the striker assemblies, making them more durable. I think Glock had the same issue. I remember the Manuals on both, saying not to dry fire without using snap caps.
So the Glock manual tells you to load a snap cap before disassembling their guns?
For those of you with better memories than me, did the Glock 17 have any early issues?
In addition to Todd's list, don't forget the whole rail breaking episode earlier in this decade, '04 or so, across the whole line. After Glock had been in business for what, two decades? Another non-recall recall by Glock.
I sent my first Glock 17 in for the non-recall recall in the early 90s, got it back with shiny nickeled internal parts.
But that doesn't stop me from owning a G17 (happens to be a different one) and G19 right now as my primary defense weapons. I have shot a couple of thousand rounds through the 17 and six thousand through the G19 and they work fine.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-30-09, 20:53
That's why I like Colt's 1911s, out of the box reliability.:D
I feel sorry for those poor bastards...no way in hell I'd want to carry a 92FS...
They'll be okay. LASD authorizes just about everything, I think!
The design has been in production and issued to LE agencies for four years now. You really believe that a department that's had the guns for four or five months (and less than 10k rounds) has stumbled onto some kind of systemic defect?
I wouldn't rule it out.
Before you ran your torture test, the shop I worked for ran theirs....we rented the s**t out of them.
Results weren't that great.
http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=8167
IIRC, our 9mm slide cracked in the same place, just a few weeks prior to your gun doing the same thing. I might still even have the pics.
Even back when I started that thread (Oct/Nov 07), I had people jumping down my throat saying it was BS.
I for one, still think the gun has a long way to go to trump the G19/ G17 of today, and I'm not surprised at all, by the memo.
OMG I AM SELLING ALL MY M&Ps!
Not.
Seriously, this community never ceases to amaze me. Out of the hundreds and hundreds of departments that are issuing a particular gun, one puts out a short "Officer Safety" memo that is incredibly short on detail and suddenly the sky is falling?
THANK YOU!
Good grief I go crazy, reading some of these threads. It surprises me how how quickly sometimes a snowball can get going down a hill, and before you know it everyone is drawing conclusions and yet the facts haven't even been established yet. First of all, we don't KNOW the "memo" posted is authentic yet. But let's assume for the sake of argument that it is. (I'm not questioning anyone's veracity, just saying we don't KNOW all the facts yet).
Next, we don't know much about the alleged failures. EXACTLY how many guns failed? They are surprisingly vague on the details, after we get past the initial couple of spectacular failures. What were the shooting conditions? What ammo were they using? Is there a manager or an armorer who has an axe to grind against S&W pistols (it's been known to happen!)? In fact, you see stuff like this in every gun shop, at every gun range, and in every gun thread: somebody has an axe to grind, and every instance of a minor repair of gun type X is yet more proof to them, that this gun sux. Yet I'd want to know a LOT more before I'd be willing to get too excited about a memo like that from one department.
And finally, sample size, as has been pointed out. What amounts to maybe 10 pistols had some kind of issue, out of roughly 50. Big deal: maybe they got a bad run of pistols, as others have said. Let's wait and see.
Meanwhile, I own two M&P pistols, and they have run GREAT for me. Early on, I had the striker assembly issues that others have had, but S&W fixed me up, and since then, these guns have been the proverbial "flawless." Honestly, I've had issues with EVERY type of gun I've owned, including Glocks (broken trigger springs) and 1911's (broken extractors). But I don't hold "teething issues" or occasional minor issues like this against any gun, because a new product has to work out its bugs. I oughta know, I work in software!!! And further, I'm so confident in my M&P's that I'm even selling one of my "safe queen" guns so that I can buy ANOTHER M&P, just ordered it today in fact, it's a Pro series in 9mm. AND I'm probably going to get one of the PT models as well.
I think M&P's are fine guns, well made, reliable, ergonomic, and accurate. Mine have been utterly reliable after fixing the early striker issues, and I plan to keep using mine, and to buy more!
BTW, one more point to add: my local range has half a dozen rental MP's, in 9mm, .40, and .45. They have had "spectacular reliability" out of theirs, according to the guys at the counter who clean and work on them. I have no idea how many rounds, but we're definitely talking in the neighborhood of 10K or more through some of these rentals, judging by how often they get checked out each week and how long they've been there. They get heavy usage every week, and no such failures have occurred yet, anyway.
IIRC, our 9mm slide cracked in the same place, just a few weeks prior to your gun doing the same thing. I might still even have the pics.
Actually, my recollection -- and based on the dates of the thread you posted -- the slide crack you had was prior to the beginning of the 50k test I did. It's been well established that certain guns made pre-Apr'08 have developed slide cracks. The percentage has been very small (there were about a dozen out of 250,000 or so produced by that time) but Smith made an across the board design change to address it.
I've also demonstrated, with two different guns, that neither reliability nor accuracy is impacted by the crack that appears. So if worst case scenario strikes and you do develop a crack, the gun will continue to function until you send it to Smith (at their expense) for repair.
As you and I have discussed before, I can't begin to explain what's up with the guns your shop has received. But far too many departments and shooters, particularly competitive shooters, have tested and abused these guns by the hundreds without problem.
maximus83 -- Excellent post, my friend.
Nathan_Bell
05-01-09, 08:12
Nevermind, my post was needlessly inflamatory
parishioner
05-01-09, 08:53
I didn't see anyone slamming people for LIKING the M&P because of ToddG's test.
Thats because his test is not the only positive evaluation of the pistol. There are plenty of other positive reviews for this weapon.
parishioner
05-01-09, 08:55
In my book, that's bad!
Joe Mamma
Well then you better throw away every last one of your guns because I can promise you that at least 49 of them have had problems. :rolleyes:
Well then you better throw away every last one of your guns because I can promise you that at least 49 of them have had problems. :rolleyes:
Problems like barrels breaking in two? Yeah, all the time . . .
Joe Mamma
parishioner
05-01-09, 09:13
Problems like barrels breaking in two? Yeah, all the time . . .
Joe Mamma
I agree with you that a barrel breaking in two is a serious problem but again that happened 1 time. Show me 100 or even 50 examples of barrels breaking in two and yes, I would then be concerned.
Keep in mind, the Police Departments Im sure have to react like this when these things happen because if they don't, it can become a liability issue.
If an officer was injured due to a broken in two barrel, and the department knew this happened before, they would get the bejesus sued out of them. Departments need to protect themselves.
This doesn't mean everyone needs to react like this.
I agree with you that a barrel breaking in two is a serious problem but again that happened 1 time. Show me 100 or even 50 examples of barrels breaking in two and yes, I would then be concerned.
Keep in mind, the Police Departments Im sure have to react like this when these things happen because if they don't, it can become a liability issue.
If an officer was injured due to a broken in two barrel, and the department knew this happened before, they would get the bejesus sued out of them. Departments need to protect themselves.
This doesn't mean everyone needs to react like this.
Fair enough. I just think people (non just Police Departments) over react both ways. But, I don't mind it because I'm actually happy to see the information and reactions (both good and bad).
Also, over reactions where people don't buy a company's guns is one of the few things that gun companies respond to, and they hopefully end up producing improved products because of it.
Joe Mamma
About the barrel situation: often when it comes to barrels, gun manufacturers can be dependent on their suppliers. There are three general scenarios that I have observed about barrels. Some make barrels themselves, but they still have to get the steel from somewhere. Others have their barrels made by 3rd party companies. Still others will make the barrels in-house, but send them off to 3rd party shops for custom treatment: chambering, reaming, crowning, polishing, fluting, or chrome-lining, etc.
So why does all this matter? My point is that sometimes, with barrel failures, while of course the manufacturer is ultimately "responsible" for anything that goes out their doors (and presumably they do some testing and firing at the factory), it is not always entirely their fault when a barrel issue occurs. They are somewhat dependent on the work of their 3rd party suppliers too. In any of the barrel scenarios above, there can be problems with the 3rd party work that the gun maker uses to either manufacturer or customize or finish the barrel. Yes they are still legally responsible, but it is not always directly and morally their "fault" when an issue like this occurs. In other words, it may not mean that a gun is a bad gun, just because they have a problem with a batch of bad steel, or a batch of barrels that was chambered incorrectly, etc.
Recent example: The former company Cardinal Armory, which was specialized in making 6.8 spc uppers for AR's, has gone out of business because they had a problem with the 3rd party company that chrome-lined their barrels. In short, the company that did the chrome-lining applied too much chrome to the barrels, which in turn created excess pressures and made the barrels unsafe. The owner had to eat all the losses, and sadly (because everyone agreed he made GREAT products) lost his business (see the thread about Cardinal Armory (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=17872)).
Again, the point is not that gun makers aren't legally responsible for what goes out their doors: they definitely are. But sometimes, especially with barrels, strange things like this have been known to happen, and it is not entirely the gun makers' fault. It is DEFINITELY not a regular pattern for M&P barrels to break: this is the first I've heard about it, and given how rare this kind of thing has been, I have to think there's some other explanation for it.
jdavis6576
05-01-09, 11:46
Just read this on SigForum:
Randy Lee
Member
Posted April 30, 2009 11:31 PM Hide Post
Hi guys,
There is a LOT more to this story than what is being released. I have been speaking with a very credible source who has been involved in the T&E process and there is a lot of frustration within the ranks regarding the decision to de-authorize this pistol.
As far as the recruits experiencing all the malfunctions, the practice ammo is HIGHLY suspect.
In the situation of the barrel breakage, once Smith receives the failed barrel, I hope they will check for unauthorized "gunsmithing" that would have voided the manufacturer's warranty.
Apparently the pics of the broken barrel have already been leaked out onto the internet. I don't know if the failure analysis results will be released from Smith, but I hope they will be...
------------------------------
Take it for what it's worth...
That's why I like Colt's 1911s, out of the box reliability.:D
Funny-Momentarily off topic-but its the only 1911 i owned that ever worked perfectly until i sent it out for custom work. Spent a couple of thousand dollars to make it perfect when the only real issue was hammer bite. Didnt have hammer bite when it returned but it didnt work either.
This is why the only change i will ever make to my Glocks and M&P will be Trijicon.
Beat Trash
05-01-09, 18:08
I can not comment on the issues the LASO's having with their M&P 9mm's. I don't work for them.
I do work for a Department in SW Ohio. We are on the start of our 4th year of issuing M&P 9mm's. Approximately 1,200 guns in the field. So far, so good.
Our Firearms Training Unit received the first 3 T&E 9mm's to ever leave the factory. The T&E process was interesting. The engineers assigned to the M&P project stayed in contact with our range staff. I can say I personally spent an 8 hour shift putting over 2k through one gun. After about 20 K per gun, the guys were running out if ideas as to how to test and torture them.
Our guns were the first batch of 9mm's produced. They shipped them out to our department in batches, as we were transitioning as the guns were being produced. This was done due to time restraints in the training schedule for yearly qualifications. To their credit, S&W managed to stay ahead of our needs, as far as delivery time goes.
After the T&E process was over, one of our range staff purchased two of the T&E guns to be used in the CCW classes he teaches to civilians on the side. These guns have well over 50K each.
My personally issued M&P full size has around 9K through it. As a whole, there has been no trend as far as issues with the design, for our Department.
Could S&W had a bad batch of barrels, or some other minor part that went to the LASO? Of course they could have. I challenge anyone in internet land to name a design that hasn't had issues at one time or another, to include Glock's (remember the recall on frames beginning with "F"?).
I would however be shocked to hear that S&W didn't address the issue with the LASO. Their customer service of late is one of the best in the industry. Add to that, S&W is got alot riding on the M&P series of pistols.
I am a huge fan of the Glock 9mm's, especially the Glock 19. I have no intention on sell off my 9mm Glocks.
But the more time I spend with the M&P, the more I like it.
I have since purchased a M&P9c, A M&P9L (had a friend do a trigger job) and purchased two M&P 9mm full size guns (back when the rebate included $50, plus 2 mags- at the LEO price for the gun plus 3 mags, couldn't pass it up). These two are set aside for my kids, for when they get older.
There are many out there who are waiting for an excuse to talk down the M&P. It's a new product, and a threat to their beloved favorite gun, be it Glock, Sig, ect. Many of these individuals might do well to post less and shoot more.
Are the issues the LASO are experiencing of concern? Of course. But it sounds as if the LASO is addressing these issues, with the safety of their officers taking priority.
This is as it should be.
I for one have no intention on dumping the M&P's I purchased for my own use. I have enough time shooting and training with my issued M&P that I trust it. Period.
If your gun has issues, call S&W. They will take care of you. If you chose to panic and dump your M&P, well in today's market, you will have no trouble selling it. Actually, if the price is right, give me a call...
GLOCKMASTER
05-02-09, 15:58
After having read the nationwide email that was sent a couple of days ago and having been involved with several firearms T&E projects for a large department, the whole story/truth is not being told.
I would be interested in knowing how much interaction the LASD had with S&W prior to sending out this so called officer safety warning.
When all is said and done ,it will probably come down to either an ammo issue or someone in the firearms program did not want the M&P and set it up for failure.
Just saying.....
YMMV....
I would be interested in knowing how much interaction the LASD had with S&W prior to sending out this so called officer safety warning.
Bingo.
My guess is "none."
What "surprises" me, is that I wouldn't be surprised if it was someone with an agenda. NOT saying it is, mid you, but I have witnessed how petty grown men and women can be. People vetted by the US Govt. and declared trustworthy, etc who will lie, cheat, steal, etc. for no real reason other then they don't like you.
So called leaders who can't tell the difference between a performance issue and a personality conflict.
I know way of topic, but I would not be at all surprised if it was something as simple as a range master, or some manager who doesn't like S&W.
Back to the OT.
Bob
Piggybacking off of Bob's post, I have been surprised over the years how much of policy, weapons training, ammo choices, guns choices, etc. at even very large agencies comes down to one guy.
You often see this in agencies that are wedded to a particular weapon brand name only due to the head rangemaster/firearms dude being a fan of Sig/Beretta/S&W/Glock/etc.
I remember one day in the late 90's that we got a messgage that three Glocks, I can't remember the model, blew up in one day from one small PA dept. I remember another message that LAPD recalled Glock 21s for malfunctions. Glock seems to have done okay since then.
In my own dept. I personally know of two .40 kabooms over the years. Guess what, they were not Glocks. One was a personal Sig and one was an issued Beretta.
Let S&W and LASO resolve the issue and we will see what the outcome is.
They are all machines designed by people. Things break.
30 cal slut
05-13-09, 15:48
hmmmmm.....
http://www.policelink.com/news/articles/104353-smithwesson-mp-pistols-no-longer-authorized-for-lasd-use
:confused:
what ammo are they using?
parishioner
05-13-09, 15:54
Come on man....:) https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30298
I take a middle ground on this thread-this is a pretty professional forum, with generally quite high quality input and discussions. Sometimes we just "agree to disagree" which can be perfectly acceptable between professionals.
I think that the more information/the larger the sample size from which credible information is derived about a product/subject, the more informed and better we're all off. The key, obviously, lies in the credibility, detail, and accuraacy of the information...
While ToddG's M&P test consisted of a sample size of exactly 1, I give it a disproportionate weighting (within reason, of course), due to Todd's expertise, knowledge, objectivity, and fairness-and open discussion of his testing protocol (yeah, you can pay me in small bills later, Todd).
Obviously, we'd be in a better position with a larger sample size, with uniform testing protocol/ammunition, etc. The real-world chances of this happening, however, are likely to be in the "slim to none" category. So realistically, we obtain, assess/analyze and ultimately shape our opinions and decisions of the best information that we receive over time, ideally from first-hand, qualified individuals/organizations, and/or companies.
I don't really have a dog in this fight. I don't have a M&P, and there's a greater chance of my next polymer gun acquisition being an H&K P30/P30L (somewhat dependant upon tests {such as Todd's currently ongoing one} and reports from the field. I am perfectly content with my current 9mm and .45 ACP Glocks-and Glock's aftermarket support (but that doesn't preclude me for perpetually somewhat hoping/searching for that "ultimate" "perfect" handgun-all the while completely acknowledging that the "best" is probably accomplished by what I have in hand/gun vault accompanied by judicious doses of practice, training and competition).
I appreciate this thread-but ultimately, we really need accurate, detailed information (good and bad) to make it viable.
Best, Jon
RE: S&W MP9
I have several friends/ collegues who work for LASD. I will inquire if any additional information is available regarding the circumstances/ failures cited regarding the S&W MP9.
Someone asked/ posted regarding Glock pistols. Glock pistols are not authorized for duty use with the LASD.
Last I was told, LASD authorizes Berretta, Smith and Wesson, SIG, and H&K.
SkiDevil
P.S. I work in the LA area. I can say that 95% of the LASD personnel I have been in contact and/ or know carry the Berretta 92. I would venture to say that because of the drastic budget cuts/ financial situation (in California) that LA County is attempting to reduce expenses (Many PD's in California have already laid-off Police/ Sheriff's deputies or are in the process of doing so now). -I would gather that the issuing of the S&W MP9 is a test to field a lower-priced piece of equipment. -City of LA just announced hiring freeze for LAPD this week.
The S&W is more appealing financially than a Berretta. I would say so because at least three departments where I know range/ training staff have told me that the department stop issuing Berretta/ Sigs and began procuring Glocks because of Administrator's (bean counters) decision to save money. :eek:
NCPatrolAR
05-15-09, 14:11
what ammo are they using?
Winclean and its the only ammo I've been told they are having issues with. There havent been any malfunctions with the duty load they were using.
There is a thread about this over on 10-8 that has more detailed info.
John_Wayne777
05-15-09, 14:29
Well don't just sit there thinking up disturbing new jail search stories....post the link!!
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=otherguns&Number=81704
a308garand
06-01-09, 17:58
Hello,
1-Glock has been constantly tested and evaluated at LASD. The lack of a mechanical safety lever had been a reason to hold back on authorizing it as a duty handgun. The M&P may have been the first steps toward Glock getting in. As a side note, the Springfield XD would look good IF it was made here in the USA.
2-LASD has a specific list of various models authorized, including the H&K USP 45,H&K P2000 P2000SK, H&K P7M8 P7M13 and so on,,,,,the Beretta 92FS continues to be the issued pistol.
3-The S&W M&P may not be less expensive that the current Beretta 92FS, but it does offer the ability to custom fit the grip size to fit the hands of many Deputies (Small to Large). If the pistol feels good/fits your hand, you shoot better.
4-If LASD switches pistols, keep in mind the magazines, holsters, magazine pouches and spare parts need to be purchased also. I believe they will keep the Beretta and slowly buy the new pistols over time (whatever the maker), but the desicion to arm is not solely guided by the bean counter.
Every gun has its own issues and upkeep, S&W will fix the problem. A year from now, this will all be old news and we can go back to discussing the 9mm vs 45acp arguements.
Have a good one :)
RE: S&W MP9
1-
Someone asked/ posted regarding Glock pistols. Glock pistols are not authorized for duty use with the LASD.
2-
Last I was told, LASD authorizes Berretta, Smith and Wesson, SIG, and H&K.
3-
P.S. I work in the LA area. I can say that 95% of the LASD personnel I have been in contact and/ or know carry the Berretta 92. I would venture to say that because of the drastic budget cuts/ financial situation (in California) that LA County is attempting to reduce expenses (Many PD's in California have already laid-off Police/ Sheriff's deputies or are in the process of doing so now). -I would gather that the issuing of the S&W MP9 is a test to field a lower-priced piece of equipment. -City of LA just announced hiring freeze for LAPD this week.
4-
The S&W is more appealing financially than a Berretta. I would say so because at least three departments where I know range/ training staff have told me that the department stop issuing Berretta/ Sigs and began procuring Glocks because of Administrator's (bean counters) decision to save money. :eek:
I guess they should go back to the ole reliable GLOCK.
NCPatrolAR
06-03-09, 21:50
I guess they should go back to the ole reliable GLOCK.
Why take a step backward when the M&P is a product-improved Glock?
M&P is a good gun but i would rather have a GLOCK.
NCPatrolAR
06-03-09, 22:00
M&P is a good gun but i would rather have a GLOCK.
Opinions/chocolate starfishs and all that. I much prefer the M&P over the Glock and am lucky I'm in an agency that now issues the M&P.
decodeddiesel
06-04-09, 08:59
300 more rounds out of my little M&P compact last night (now at 1100 rounds, mix of 115gr WWB, 147gr WinClean, 147gr PDX1, and 115gr Seller and Bellot JHP) and I am more and more impressed with this little pistol. I know it's OT from the whole officer safety fiasco, but at least this sample has a big fat "GO" in my book. I simply can't believe how well this little gun works in a modern isosceles.
It appears that the news reports about M&P pistols being recalled at Atlanta PD were not fully accurate--purportedly S&W simply installed improved trigger bars.
Likewise, after S&W sharpened the extractors to better handle Win-Clean training ammo issues, LASD has supposedly re-authorized M&P's for duty and off-duty use. Oh, and the pistol with the separated barrel had reportedly been "home gunsmithed" by a deputy using a Dremel tool. It might be nice if LASD put out another message clarifying this issue...
It appears that the news reports about M&P pistols being recalled at Atlanta PD were not fully accurate--purportedly S&W simply installed improved trigger bars.
Likewise, after S&W sharpened the extractors to better handle Win-Clean training ammo issues, LASD has supposedly re-authorized M&P's for duty and off-duty use. Oh, an dhte pistol with the separated barrel had been "home gunsmithed" by a deputy using a Dremel tool. It might be nice if LASD put out another message clarifying this issue...
Thanks DocGKR.
Unfortunately the initial news story makes a much bigger splash than the critical follow-up information such as you have provided.
a308garand
07-05-09, 21:11
LASD has supposedly re-authorized M&P's for duty and off-duty use
Hmmmm, will have to check the teletypes to see if it has been given the green light again.
I feel sorry for those poor bastards...no way in hell I'd want to carry a 92FS...
Widgets on the slide!!!!
...And widgets that work in the opposite direction from what God and John Moses Browning intended!!!
Heresy! :cool:
I've got a contact on the department. I'll see if I can pin him down on specifics.
According to my associate in LA, these guns have not yet been re-approved for duty or off duty use. They will be retested with another class of recruits in October.
Smith is reported to be blaming poor quality control on the extractors. The WinClean ammo is within SAAMI spec.
The "home gunsmith" barrel is an Internet rumor. That gun was not modified by the officer carrying it.
According to my associate in LA, these guns have not yet been re-approved for duty or off duty use. They will be retested with another class of recruits in October.
Smith is reported to be blaming poor quality control on the extractors. The WinClean ammo is within SAAMI spec.
The "home gunsmith" barrel is an Internet rumor. That gun was not modified by the officer carrying it.
Not to start a pissing match but who is your associate and are they a verifiable source? Dr. Gary K. Roberts AKA DocGKR is about as reliable a source as they come. Hence the Industry Professional under his name.
Irish, not to match a pissing match but Doc is the top in his field. He has not represented himself as a "source" but rather has access to sources.
IF the home gunsmithing barrel split is NOT a rumor . . . I've been skeptically wondering what mod a guy would do to a barrel that would cause it to break in the manner roughly described. Polished a feed ramp? :confused:
Maybe no barrel suffered a catastrophic failure. Maybe just a kb and a bad barrel. It hardly matters at this point. The guns are out in en masse and they'll make the grade long term (most likely) or not.
Derek_Connor
07-09-09, 18:57
Irish, not to match a pissing match but Doc is the top in his field. He has not represented himself as a "source" but rather has access to sources.
IF the home gunsmithing barrel split is NOT a rumor . . . I've been skeptically wondering what mod a guy would do to a barrel that would cause it to break in the manner roughly described. Polished a feed ramp? :confused:
Maybe no barrel suffered a catastrophic failure. Maybe just a kb and a bad barrel. It hardly matters at this point. The guns are out in en masse and they'll make the grade long term (most likely) or not.
maybe the end user heard about possible extraction issues, and the fixes being reported was to polish the feedramp/chamber.
If he took TOO much material out of the chamber, that could cause extraction issues to catastrophic failures...
I also read Doc's quoted statement above and didn't go up and re-read his edit FWIW. The word "reportedly" makes a huge difference in this case and I don't mean that as an insult to Doc, we all make mistakes.
Thanks DocGKR.
Unfortunately the initial news story makes a much bigger splash than the critical follow-up information such as you have provided.
Thats usually how it goes...
The 1st story will make Page 1 then the retraction/additional information will appear ~6 months later on the last page next to used car ads.
Either way hopefully the "reported" will turn to "confirmed" here soon.
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