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bobby.lamberth
04-30-09, 23:14
Ok, I am debating, when I do this it usually lasts months before I make the decision because I weigh all options and try to think everything out...

My plan is to get a vehicle to pull my camper and can load my family up comfortably and go if need be, so im thinking an SUV will be the best bet, i have a pickup now and I can load everything i need but its not the most comfortable for long road trips.

I am considering a Hummer H2, I have the funds and I am aware of the gas mileage, but I will build it for the ultimate BOV something like Resident Evil Extinction :D, I guess im just looking for feedback from others, my wife is down with the idea of a BOV but i cant decide what yet...Help Please!!

Country DeVil
05-01-09, 00:09
as far as a BOV would go I say it has to be diesel. its a far superior engine and can run on pretty much anything with a flash point lower than its own melting point. like auto trans fluid, veg oil, clean diesel, dirty diesel, p-nut oil, blah blah blah. look into it I am saving to get a reactor and making my own bio diesel, its a lot easier than most people think and its cheap too.
as far as making an H2 look like one you see in movies, take it from someone in the film industry most of what you see is for looks not for use. take batman's tumbler for example. there were quite a few of them and each one had a specific purpose, one to jump, one to make turns, one to see inside of, one to get in and out of and so on.
anyway just my input
oh yea its easier to burn other fuels in older diesels because they dont have so many computer controllers, and if you are interested in bio diesel search for the fuelmeister 2.
love to see some pics of your BOV when you finish.

tinman44
05-01-09, 00:29
jeep oh and downgrade to a fold out camper.

Gramps
05-01-09, 00:49
BOV Food for thought.

Use/reasons for BOV

Ease of obtaining fuel for it, IE: If a nat disaster has come on and no fuel available for while on the run. Ease of obtaining more and what might be easily available legal or otherwise. (Borrowing)

Usefulness for if the towed vehicle has to be abandoned and BOV used alone.

Fuel millage, for if little or no extra fuel available.

Color of BOV, easy to spot/draw attention or not.

Both BOV and TV, size to go wherever. LXHXW, 4X4 etc.

No Onstar or some sort of GPS for Govt to find and disable for you?

Size of family.

Ease and knowledge of working on if a break down.

It all depends on what YOU want out of your BOV.

Let us know what you decide and the reasons for it. There might be others with your idea too, that would like to know.

Hayduke
05-01-09, 01:38
EMP proof perhaps? as in a KISS type BOV.

Mr.Goodtimes
05-01-09, 04:33
dodge 3500 longbed with a cummins. /thread :D


my dad just bought one and that truck gives me the impression it will go anywhere, kinda makes me wish the shtf so we can go rough it up a little and not feel bad about it lol.

ill be buying one as soon as funds permit... probably a couple years down the road after college.

we have the new 6.7L cummins, its been good thus far but, i think if you want a more proven design, go with the 5.9L and the manual 6 speed tranny. and dont forget to rip out all that panzy emissions shit and add a tuner ship. we went with a bully dog.

bobby.lamberth
05-01-09, 13:25
All good advice, I appreciate it, like I said, I wil debate for months before I make a decision but i will have pictures in my picture album when I start working on it...its a curse that I cant drive astock vehicle, every vehicle I get I have to customize it somehow or another...
Gramps-awesome comment about onstar, I cant stop laughing, and its true, when I was in training we had a guy go AWOL and I just happened to have a truck with onstar and knew his did as well so we called and found him, that was a bad night, and a stupid reason for him to get Article 92 Punishment, I guess they have to make an example of someone somehow...
Country Devil-i understand the difference about movies and how they are built for looks, I was just using that example but sood point for people who might believe anything they see on a movie...
tinman44-I actually had a jeep and a fold out camper, I would love to have another, but a jeep just isnt as comfortable for the family as I would like...if it were just me and the wife, a jeep wrangler TJ with a supercharged 4.0L would be the only way to go haha. As for the fold out camper its nowhere near as rugged and stong as I would like, if Shit Hits The Fan im talking reinforced floors. walls, windows, doubled axles, runflats, the whole works...even under the bed I have plans to build a weapons safe...
thanks again for all you guy's support on this, and keep it coming im a big boy I can take the constructive criticism haha:D

Nathan_Bell
05-01-09, 14:31
Idea for small BOV
Jeep Liberty Diesel. 28 MPG good fuel availablity. Fairly simple for a diesel mech to work on.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Jeep-Liberty-CRD-LIFTED-LIBERTY-NEW-BFGs-CRD-TURBO-DIESEL-LOW-MILES_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a317Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem230340092558QQitemZ230340092558QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks

NOthing to do with the auction, just to show you what I am talking about.

jcase64
05-01-09, 14:57
I've always eyed Jeep cherokee XJ's. 4 door suv, cheap, capable, long life motor, did i mention cheap? also can tow 2x a wrangler (leaf spring, bigger axle in rear), granted 5k isn't a lot.

Downsides, will miss the roominess of my super duty, wish it had a mech injection diesel

an older 6.5 chebby would also be an option, but the smaller/lighter xj might fit the bill better (ever tried to stay on a trail in a full size truck :) )

NoBody
05-01-09, 16:18
Deleted.

sjc3081
05-01-09, 16:31
Toyota Land Cruiser is worth a look

Nathan_Bell
05-01-09, 16:36
Just keep in mind that gasoline is more plentiful than diesel fuel in a disaster (unless you're around the military or airport). You should better define what scenario you envision needing a BOV. Otherwise, it seems like a solution in search of a problem. Define the problem first and then seek the solution.

Perhaps in urban areas, but most interstate fuel stops have 3-5 as many gallons of diesel on hand than gasoline. Farmers also tend to have 200-700 gallons o it on hand as well.

LOKNLOD
05-01-09, 16:39
Toyota Land Cruiser is worth a look

An early to mid 90's FZJ-80 would be an awesome choice if you could find one. Solid axles (some with front/rear locking diffs), bulletproof straight-6, large enough to carry a pretty good load/multiple people but compact enough for trails.

Good call.

dhrith
05-01-09, 16:39
H2's a piece of shit, stick with the H1 for real capability, not shiny chrome rapper looks.

Puffy93
05-01-09, 16:56
H2's a piece of shit, stick with the H1 for real capability, not shiny chrome rapper looks.

I was about to say the EXACT same thing.

When you do get one PLEASE don't get some foreign POS. An American car may cost more but at least the money isn't going to japan.

cougar_guy04
05-01-09, 17:38
dodge 3500 longbed with a cummins. /thread :D


my dad just bought one and that truck gives me the impression it will go anywhere, kinda makes me wish the shtf so we can go rough it up a little and not feel bad about it lol.

ill be buying one as soon as funds permit... probably a couple years down the road after college.

we have the new 6.7L cummins, its been good thus far but, i think if you want a more proven design, go with the 5.9L and the manual 6 speed tranny. and dont forget to rip out all that panzy emissions shit and add a tuner ship. we went with a bully dog.
I've got similar thoughts . . . only going 2000-2003 F-250/F-350 SRW Crew Cab/Long Bed 4x4 with a 7.3 PSD with some extra fuel tanks instead of the Dodge. I figure I'll be able to swing one in a year or two. With the tank setup I'm looking at, I could get from my current locale to home (1200 Miles away) with 200 +/- to spare and not have to fuel. There would also be a couple other neccessary modifications . . . but that's just the engineer in me that can't leave well enough alone.

Hopefully, it'll probably be the last vehicle I have to buy for a long time.

LOKNLOD
05-01-09, 19:04
When you do get one PLEASE don't get some foreign POS. An American car may cost more but at least the money isn't going to japan.

:rolleyes:

Buying a vehicle for consideration as a BOV means that more is at stake than just how cool it looks or how many cupholders it has. Just as when you choose a firearm for defensive purposes, quality, reliablility, and capability are top priority. Your or your family's life could depend on it.

lowprone
05-01-09, 19:29
My BOV is a 1972 Ford F250 4X4 pu w/300ci 6cyl, gear driven transfer case, no chains, bullet proof ltd slip front and rear, no electronic ignition, 4sp manual trans
factory aux gas tank, Mountainair cab flush aluminum camper shell w/homemade
roof rack mandrel bent and tig welded, heavy diamond wire pan to hold all manner of things, latches welded to tube for shovel, ax, jack, ect. Bumper winch, gas and water can racks. 5th wheel tool box in camper , portable generator, air compressor, Ham
radio. Looking into foaming tires like military , available from Gempers catalog.
Basically an ongoing project, as I like to expolre back country AZ.

PlatoCATM
05-01-09, 19:46
H2's a piece of shit, stick with the H1 for real capability, not shiny chrome rapper looks.

You think an H1 isn't a shiny POS? An H1 is not a Humvee.

My BOV of choice? A horse.

OPPFOR
05-01-09, 20:48
Ok, I am debating, when I do this it usually lasts months before I make the decision because I weigh all options and try to think everything out...

My plan is to get a vehicle to pull my camper and can load my family up comfortably and go if need be, so im thinking an SUV will be the best bet, i have a pickup now and I can load everything i need but its not the most comfortable for long road trips.

I am considering a Hummer H2, I have the funds and I am aware of the gas mileage, but I will build it for the ultimate BOV something like Resident Evil Extinction :D, I guess im just looking for feedback from others, my wife is down with the idea of a BOV but i cant decide what yet...Help Please!!

Be careful. Before you know it you'll end up with a minivan with soccer and honor student stickers all over the back. Women are very sneaky.:eek:

LOKNLOD
05-01-09, 20:59
Be careful. Before you know it you'll end up with a minivan with soccer and honor student stickers all over the back. Women are very sneaky.:eek:

My wife has a minivan, but when I drive it becomes the FUDVee (Family Urban Deployment Vehicle). Low profile, lots of room for gear, and dual sliding doors for doorgunners. It's like the Huey of the suburbs!

I'm still trying to convince her that FUDVEE would make a good vanity plate :D

Nathan_Bell
05-01-09, 21:19
My wife has a minivan, but when I drive it becomes the FUDVee (Family Urban Deployment Vehicle). Low profile, lots of room for gear, and dual sliding doors for doorgunners. It's like the Huey of the suburbs!

I'm still trying to convince her that FUDVEE would make a good vanity plate :D

That damn near made me choke on my MT Dew.

My BOV is under construction, hopefully when it is done it will work as well as I hope.

Gramps
05-02-09, 00:36
I vote "FUDVEE would make a good vanity plate", and you can show her here where we voted for her plate!

bobby.lamberth
05-02-09, 17:17
thanks Glock FU-my wife has a Nissan X-terra but the kid isnt ready for soccer yet...maybe soon though, I could see the stickers going on the back of an up-armored HMMWV that would be cute lol :D

TecRsq
05-05-09, 18:37
My choices are the Dodge / Cummins and the Jeep, the truck is the primary and the Jeep is the secondary.

The truck is the daily driver and the Jeep is stashed, both are outfitted very closely with regard to recovery, medical, fuel / water, communication, shelter and related equipment.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i254/TecRsq/My%20Jeep%20Wrangler/MyTJculvertflex.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i254/TecRsq/My%20Cummins%20Diesel%20Dodge/DSCN0308.jpg

Mr.Goodtimes
05-05-09, 19:40
very nice truck!!

ROCKET20_GINSU
05-05-09, 22:32
Subaru WRX,

I know its not that rugged and possesses very little off road capabilities but its what I have. It reliable, very very fast, and an absolute burner when it comes to getting from point A to B down unknown, windy paved and dirt roads in adverse weather when you have no idea whats around the bend ahead. It is a rally car :D It does 0-60 sub 6 sec and it gets 30 mpg on the highway when using cruise control.

I always keep a case of water, a couple of extra MRE's, Boots and socks, Crow bar, Garmin (GPS Nav), Fire extinguisher, a couple of flash lights and a pocket knife or 2. I haven't quite worked out the extra (long term) fuel portion of the puzzle but I am confident that I could out run most cars out there on the road if necessary and that makes me happy :D.

GU

TecRsq
05-06-09, 06:46
very nice truck!!

Thanks for the good word on the pickup, it is heavily fueled and has very nice power but is very streetable and gets great mileage when you keep your foot off the skinny pedal.

This is the second "2nd Generation Dodge diesel" I have owned and they are great.

bobby.lamberth
05-06-09, 14:09
[QUOTE=TecRsq;363643]My choices are the Dodge / Cummins and the Jeep, the truck is the primary and the Jeep is the secondary.

The truck is the daily driver and the Jeep is stashed, both are outfitted very closely with regard to recovery, medical, fuel / water, communication, shelter and related equipment.


I'm a fan of both, im not really a fan of chrysler but Jeeps I can deal with...I have my Silverado outfitted for hopefully anything: lift, true beadlock wheels, BFG Mud Terrain KM2 tires, brushguard, winch is on the way, jeri cans color-coordinated for fuel/water, toolbox-with med-kit, cooler, assorted tools, and a few MRE's...

But like I started this thread for I would like another vehicle since my truck isnt the most comfortable for long drives or the family, and I like the idea of having both...thanks for making my decision more difficult haha

bobby.lamberth
05-06-09, 14:10
My choices are the Dodge / Cummins and the Jeep, the truck is the primary and the Jeep is the secondary.

The truck is the daily driver and the Jeep is stashed, both are outfitted very closely with regard to recovery, medical, fuel / water, communication, shelter and related equipment.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i254/TecRsq/My%20Jeep%20Wrangler/MyTJculvertflex.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i254/TecRsq/My%20Cummins%20Diesel%20Dodge/DSCN0308.jpg

I'm a fan of both, im not really a fan of chrysler but Jeeps I can deal with...I have my Silverado outfitted for hopefully anything: lift, true beadlock wheels, BFG Mud Terrain KM2 tires, brushguard, winch is on the way, jeri cans color-coordinated for fuel/water, toolbox-with med-kit, cooler, assorted tools, and a few MRE's...

But like I started this thread for I would like another vehicle since my truck isnt the most comfortable for long drives or the family, and I like the idea of having both...thanks for making my decision more difficult haha

TecRsq
05-06-09, 16:58
I'm a fan of both, im not really a fan of chrysler but Jeeps I can deal with...I have my Silverado outfitted for hopefully anything: lift, true beadlock wheels, BFG Mud Terrain KM2 tires, brushguard, winch is on the way, jeri cans color-coordinated for fuel/water, toolbox-with med-kit, cooler, assorted tools, and a few MRE's...

But like I started this thread for I would like another vehicle since my truck isnt the most comfortable for long drives or the family, and I like the idea of having both...thanks for making my decision more difficult haha

I don't really buy the Dodge brand for the sheet metal either and truth be told I am a life long Bowtie fan. I like many others purchase for the Cummins brand and the Dana / Spicer Drivetrain.

The Jeep IMHO has got to be one of the best Bug Out vehicles ever to turn a wheel.

- They helped win wars all over the world

- They are immensely popular

- They have an aftermarket and spare parts support network that is the envy of the rest of the vehicle world.

- They are very dependable and the older models are easily serviced with minimal amounts of tools.

- They are agile and supremely maneuverable

Pretty much the cream of the crop but they have some disadvantages.

- Some models are short on space unless you find an aftermarket alternative

- Some models have a soft top which might not be favorable in a Bug Out or SHTF scenario with regard to personal and equipment security.

- The newer models have computer controlled motors and trannys.

- Some models will limit the amount of people it can physically carry.

Weigh the pro's with the Con's and the Jeep brand is still the ultimate winner!

Do like I did, build one, outfit it and stash it at a place that you can retrieve it when the defecation hits the rotary oscillator.

This will enable much more agility, a lighter footprint and and extremely proven tool to be enabled in a time of dire need.

Edited to add: Buy a shell for you bed, remove the bulkhead or add a boot for access to the bed from the interior of the truck. That will enable more comfort for the big rig as you can now air up a mattress and sleep in comfort while you still have the security of being in a vehicle.

Roy
05-15-09, 19:25
Check out Expeditionportal.com for lots of cool BOB ideas

Right now ive got a jeep Tj (2 door) wrangler.
I had a cheorkee that i totaled i liked the size of that.

Good luck with your decision.

Nathan_Bell
05-25-09, 07:36
Here is the basis for THE ultimate BOV ;)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270394493647&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&viewitem=

lowprone
05-25-09, 11:20
What year mfg is the Dodge? Do you have any problems starting in prolonged cold weather without plugging into block heater?

MikeN
05-25-09, 11:55
Can't carry much tho :)

http://mike.clubgp.com/drz.jpg

Nathan_Bell
05-25-09, 13:20
Can't carry much tho :)

http://mike.clubgp.com/drz.jpg

Be a better one for a single urbanite to get the hell out of dodge than a fullsized pickup.

WS6
05-25-09, 22:40
The ultimate BOV depends on location. I personally like my WS6. Not much out there will catch it, and it has a 400+ mile highway radius.

Then again, if the highways are clogged. Screwed. Offroad capacity is nil.

How about a truck? Well yeah, but they SUCK fuel down.

I honestly think the ultimate BOV would be something like what my X Gf's dad has:

Late 80's/early 90's (I have no idea what year the shell is) 4WD Suburban with a Cummins Deisel and a 5-speed manual and a lift kit (not sure how big the kit is, like 8" maybe?) and skid-plates underneath. That vehicle is all that is man. Guy built it himself (EXCELLENT mechanic, only person I allow to touch my WS6 besides myself. He does things correctly.)

VTLO910
05-25-09, 23:27
Here is my Beastie... If only she were Diesel.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v116/vtlo910/Side.jpg

WS6
05-25-09, 23:44
Here is my Beastie... If only she were Diesel.




Yeah, his is definitely an older model. He installed/converted to deisel himself. I understand it wasn't that tough for him, but for the average guy it might be. He fabs a lot of his own stuff.

The thing to remember is that a unqie vehicle is like a condom. You use it and throw it away almost. What good is something when you can't gank a tire for it? What good is something that has exclusive 1-off parts if you can't fab more?

Buy something generic. Besides looking like crap, the H2 would be one of the worst vehicles I can think of. If I wanted a true BOV, it would have a carburetor or be diesel. I would by all means avoid vehicles with a ton of electronics on board. I just think older vehicles can take more. My newer cars and my friends with newer cars have way more issues than I remember my dad having with his old 5.0's and 460's as a kid. If he had an issue, it could be fixed in the driveway inside a day or two.

If you must get something new, get something POPULAR that you can canabalize other parts for at a later date. Think F150/Dodge/Chevy, etc. Not H2 or Jeep Rubicon. How many Rubicon's do you see vs. the others?

I dunno, just my take on it.

Nathan_Bell
05-26-09, 07:55
Yeah, his is definitely an older model. He installed/converted to deisel himself. I understand it wasn't that tough for him, but for the average guy it might be. He fabs a lot of his own stuff.

The thing to remember is that a unqie vehicle is like a condom. You use it and throw it away almost. What good is something when you can't gank a tire for it? What good is something that has exclusive 1-off parts if you can't fab more?

Buy something generic. Besides looking like crap, the H2 would be one of the worst vehicles I can think of. If I wanted a true BOV, it would have a carburetor or be diesel. I would by all means avoid vehicles with a ton of electronics on board. I just think older vehicles can take more. My newer cars and my friends with newer cars have way more issues than I remember my dad having with his old 5.0's and 460's as a kid. If he had an issue, it could be fixed in the driveway inside a day or two.

If you must get something new, get something POPULAR that you can canabalize other parts for at a later date. Think F150/Dodge/Chevy, etc. Not H2 or Jeep Rubicon. How many Rubicon's do you see vs. the others?

I dunno, just my take on it.

If he fabbed all of the hardware himself, he would be SOL. There are several companies out their that offer kits to put Cummins in most 3/4 ton US trucks, that use very few custom items. IIRC the one I was looking at for my Ford the only truly custom part was the bellhousing adaptor and a wiring adaptor. The wiring adaptor was barely needed if you were dropping a 12V instead of a 24V Cummins in.

Mr.Goodtimes
05-26-09, 09:28
im seriously considering making my 1994 ranger super cab my BOV, and my DD. its my first truck, and still my only truck. im thinking when i get the money this is what im going to do....

- 400hp 5.0 V8 (very easy to drop into ranger) w/ custom fabricated true dual exhaust with high flow mufflers. i may or may not put cats on it, probably not.
- F150 5sp Transmission
- 4in lift kit
- 16in MT rims w/ 33in MT Baja ATZ Radials
- Ford 8in Rear end w/ lockers
- Replace interior carpet with Line-X, replace bench seats with bucket racing seats.
- Winch
- Front brush guard/light bar with some PIAA lights.

thats what ive come up with so far, im def going to strip out a lot of the interior carpet and the ligning on the roof of the cabin, as its falling in.

the truck is currently a 2wd with the I-Beam front suspension, so it would make a pefect candidate for a solid front axle swap, but im not sure if i want to go through all that trouble. ive seen some of these little 2wd trucks do some crazy shit off road. if i left it 2wd i would probably use the tranny out of a mustang instead.

and whats really nice is i could do all of this for probably under 10k.

im thinking this will make for a really nimble and powerfull on/off road truck.

im not sure if i want to do a 3.73 or 4.10 rear end.

WS6
05-26-09, 15:14
If he fabbed all of the hardware himself, he would be SOL. There are several companies out their that offer kits to put Cummins in most 3/4 ton US trucks, that use very few custom items. IIRC the one I was looking at for my Ford the only truly custom part was the bellhousing adaptor and a wiring adaptor. The wiring adaptor was barely needed if you were dropping a 12V instead of a 24V Cummins in.

I have no idea what EXACTLY went into the build, only the result. I doubt this guy will ever be SOL vehicularly.

WS6
05-26-09, 15:16
im seriously considering making my 1994 ranger super cab my BOV, and my DD. its my first truck, and still my only truck. im thinking when i get the money this is what im going to do....

- 400hp 5.0 V8 (very easy to drop into ranger) w/ custom fabricated true dual exhaust with high flow mufflers. i may or may not put cats on it, probably not.
- F150 5sp Transmission
- 4in lift kit
- 16in MT rims w/ 33in MT Baja ATZ Radials
- Ford 8in Rear end w/ lockers
- Replace interior carpet with Line-X, replace bench seats with bucket racing seats.
- Winch
- Front brush guard/light bar with some PIAA lights.

thats what ive come up with so far, im def going to strip out a lot of the interior carpet and the ligning on the roof of the cabin, as its falling in.

the truck is currently a 2wd with the I-Beam front suspension, so it would make a pefect candidate for a solid front axle swap, but im not sure if i want to go through all that trouble. ive seen some of these little 2wd trucks do some crazy shit off road. if i left it 2wd i would probably use the tranny out of a mustang instead.

and whats really nice is i could do all of this for probably under 10k.

im thinking this will make for a really nimble and powerfull on/off road truck.

im not sure if i want to do a 3.73 or 4.10 rear end.


Sounds good except for that 5.0. Just what 5.0 do you know of that makes 400hp, or are you using SAE Gross and not net or rwhp in that statement?

You won't find a streetable 5.0 making 400whp unless you count forced induction into the equation.

Also, if you are planning on a FI 400whp build, skip the T5 and go with a TKO500 if you stay 2WD. Do it once, do it right.

Thomas M-4
05-26-09, 15:37
Sounds good except for that 5.0. Just what 5.0 do you know of that makes 400hp, or are you using SAE Gross and not net or rwhp in that statement?

You won't find a streetable 5.0 making 400whp unless you count forced induction into the equation.

Also, if you are planning on a FI 400whp build, skip the T5 and go with a TKO500 if you stay 2WD. Do it once, do it right.

+ 1 the T-5 tranny is the most weak knee piece of garbage to be put in a mustang 5.0 and the brakes or lack there of.

Thomas M-4
05-26-09, 15:41
im seriously considering making my 1994 ranger super cab my BOV, and my DD. its my first truck, and still my only truck. im thinking when i get the money this is what im going to do....

- 400hp 5.0 V8 (very easy to drop into ranger) w/ custom fabricated true dual exhaust with high flow mufflers. i may or may not put cats on it, probably not.
- F150 5sp Transmission
- 4in lift kit
- 16in MT rims w/ 33in MT Baja ATZ Radials
- Ford 8in Rear end w/ lockers
- Replace interior carpet with Line-X, replace bench seats with bucket racing seats.
- Winch
- Front brush guard/light bar with some PIAA lights.

thats what ive come up with so far, im def going to strip out a lot of the interior carpet and the ligning on the roof of the cabin, as its falling in.

the truck is currently a 2wd with the I-Beam front suspension, so it would make a pefect candidate for a solid front axle swap, but im not sure if i want to go through all that trouble. ive seen some of these little 2wd trucks do some crazy shit off road. if i left it 2wd i would probably use the tranny out of a mustang instead.

and whats really nice is i could do all of this for probably under 10k.

im thinking this will make for a really nimble and powerfull on/off road truck.

im not sure if i want to do a 3.73 or 4.10 rear end.

Have you checked out http://www.dezertrangers.com/home.htm
look through the forum lots of interesting builds might give you some ideas

Mr.Goodtimes
05-26-09, 16:08
Sounds good except for that 5.0. Just what 5.0 do you know of that makes 400hp, or are you using SAE Gross and not net or rwhp in that statement?

You won't find a streetable 5.0 making 400whp unless you count forced induction into the equation.

Also, if you are planning on a FI 400whp build, skip the T5 and go with a TKO500 if you stay 2WD. Do it once, do it right.

i was hopin to get 350 to the wheels N/A. I was gonna build the engine up. you think this isnt possible N/A? if not a 302 then what about a 351? they use the same block right? ill keep in mind what you said about the transmission.

Mr.Goodtimes
05-26-09, 16:08
Have you checked out http://www.dezertrangers.com/home.htm
look through the forum lots of interesting builds might give you some ideas

thanks for the link bro, im gonna go check that out!

Thomas M-4
05-26-09, 16:33
i was hopin to get 350 to the wheels N/A. I was gonna build the engine up. you think this isnt possible N/A? if not a 302 then what about a 351? they use the same block right? ill keep in mind what you said about the transmission.

302 and the 351 are differant blocks
350 HP is possible in NA but if you keep it a 302 you will be turning more rpms
stroker would be good low end torque but 347ci strokers are not know for the best piston ring wear.
300 hp to the wheels is actually pretty good remember your not drag racing
gear ratio 4.57:1 should do nice.

WS6
05-26-09, 17:26
302 and the 351 are differant blocks
350 HP is possible in NA but if you keep it a 302 you will be turning more rpms
stroker would be good low end torque but 347ci strokers are not know for the best piston ring wear.
300 hp to the wheels is actually pretty good remember your not drag racing
gear ratio 4.57:1 should do nice.

310-330whp is about all you are going to pull out of a 302ci motor that is street friendly. I have never seen a street-friendly 302 put more than 330 or so whp to the ground, and it was on the edge of being not-street-friendly. DEFINITELY not rock-crawler material.

The 331 is a lot more friendly to cylinders/rings. However, with the advent of offset wrist-pins,etc. the 347 isn't as bad as it used to be. The geometry of the 331 is still superior though.

I would shoot for 260-290whp with a more low-end friendly cam and more torque-oriented build though. Like the man said, this isn't a drag car.

Forget about running a 4.57. If this is a DD like you say it is, I would NOT go past 4.10's. My GT was like driving a dump-truck even with a 7,000rpm redline with the 3.27 first of my TKO500 and the 4.10's. I could go 1st to 5th in normal traffic, lol.

If you go with a 331, shoot for low 300's to the ground with LOTS of torque.

Thomas M-4
05-26-09, 18:16
310-330whp is about all you are going to pull out of a 302ci motor that is street friendly. I have never seen a street-friendly 302 put more than 330 or so whp to the ground, and it was on the edge of being not-street-friendly. DEFINITELY not rock-crawler material.

The 331 is a lot more friendly to cylinders/rings. However, with the advent of offset wrist-pins,etc. the 347 isn't as bad as it used to be. The geometry of the 331 is still superior though.

I would shoot for 260-290whp with a more low-end friendly cam and more torque-oriented build though. Like the man said, this isn't a drag car.

Forget about running a 4.56. If this is a DD like you say it is, I would NOT go past 4.10's. My GT was like driving a dump-truck even with a 7,000rpm redline with the 3.27 first of my TKO500 and the 4.10's. I could go 1st to 5th in normal traffic, lol.

If you go with a 331, shoot for low 300's to the ground with LOTS of torque.

4.56 is not that bad with 33inch tires those tires are a lot taller than lowprofiles mounted on 18 inch wheels But it also depends on how far he is driving daily on the free way less than 20 miles or more than 20 miles can make a big difference I drove for years with a 91 5.0 4.10 gear AOD with 2200 rpm stall converter none lock up [that adds about 200-300 rpm than a 5spd ] and 16 inch wheels of course I wasnt driving 80 mph all over the freeway. And highway mpg went from 28-30mpg to 18mpg LOL
It sounds like he wants something Like a PRERUNNER STYLE build most of those just run a stock motor say for a few boltons the main concern with PRERUNNERS is a good cage and suspension.
just remembered here is another sight he needs to visit http://www.lasvegasprerunners.com/component/option,com_zoom/Itemid,9/
There is also another sight but the sight is down
Also when I told him he will be turning more rpms I meant that he would be losing low end torque [cant make high HP numbers with out spinning the engine up]

Mr.Goodtimes
05-26-09, 18:43
nice responses! what im looking for is making this into a pre runner type truck, not a rock crawler at all.

im lookin to build a truck that can go really, really, really fast over sand dunes, dirt roads, the desert, sandy areas or even mildly swampy areas. i live in florida so i def dont need a rock crawler type vehicle, which is why the solid axle is just a thought, i dont really think its needed. im pretty sure i can just leave it 2wd, and have it go about anywhere i can conceive needing it to go, ittl go there fast, and with good handling characteristics (for a truck).

i would prefer it to have more low end torque so it can get up and move better.

Thomas M-4
05-26-09, 18:59
nice responses! what im looking for is making this into a pre runner type truck, not a rock crawler at all.

im lookin to build a truck that can go really, really, really fast over sand dunes, dirt roads, the desert, sandy areas or even mildly swampy areas. i live in florida so i def dont need a rock crawler type vehicle, which is why the solid axle is just a thought, i dont really think its needed. im pretty sure i can just leave it 2wd, and have it go about anywhere i can conceive needing it to go, ittl go there fast, and with good handling characteristics (for a truck).

i would prefer it to have more low end torque so it can get up and move better.

Check out those 2 sites full of prerunners
The other sight prerunners.net is shut down:mad: It had lots of sick ranger builds.

Mr.Goodtimes
05-26-09, 19:35
yea im trollin around there and i think these sites are going to be extremely usefull for gathering information on what works/doesent and what to use etc... thanks a lot bro for puttin those up!

Thomas M-4
05-26-09, 19:52
yea im trollin around there and i think these sites are going to be extremely usefull for gathering information on what works/doesent and what to use etc... thanks a lot bro for puttin those up!

Lots of ranger parts suspensions http://www.camburg.com/about.html
Most important is not how much HP you got but chassis and suspension

Mr.Goodtimes
05-26-09, 21:05
wow, that camburg stuff is NICE! thats def the suspension im gonna go with. i really like the fender flares they make as well!

in addition to a good suspension and good chassis, i still want more power. the 3.0L v6 thats in my truck currently barely has enough power to get out of its own way. i also want the raw power so the truck will get up and move from a stop, and be able to power through mudd and in addition, go from 0-80is, really damn fast, mostly, just because i want it to, part of its CDI.

i may consider just dropping a 4.6L SOHC in there out of a mustang, but im not sure if thats as easy as putting a 302 in. what would be nice though is i wouldnt have to do any real internal work. i could probably get close to 300 to the wheels just with some bolt on stuff.

Thomas M-4
05-26-09, 21:40
wow, that camburg stuff is NICE! thats def the suspension im gonna go with. i really like the fender flares they make as well!

in addition to a good suspension and good chassis, i still want more power. the 3.0L v6 thats in my truck currently barely has enough power to get out of its own way. i also want the raw power so the truck will get up and move from a stop, and be able to power through mudd and in addition, go from 0-80is, really damn fast, mostly, just because i want it to, part of its CDI.

i may consider just dropping a 4.6L SOHC in there out of a mustang, but im not sure if thats as easy as putting a 302 in. what would be nice though is i wouldnt have to do any real internal work. i could probably get close to 300 to the wheels just with some bolt on stuff.

http://rogueperformance.com/sc.html
Just install supercharger and exhaust system
http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/3_0performance.html
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts

/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=6844

Look around in the ranger forums try some google fu see whats out there for your year model ranger

here is another http://www.moranav6racing.com/category.html?CategoryID=36

Mr.Goodtimes
05-26-09, 22:51
ive looked around the ranger station and the v8 swaps are VERY popular over there.

supercharging a 3.0 is not an option for me. for one, i love the sound of a v8, and dont want my ranger to sound like a supercharged super pissed off dixie chopper, not to mention, even with a super charger, im dropping tons of money to have my engine rebuilt and configured for a super charger, plus the install of the super charger it self.

another reason that a v8 swap is appealing to me is that my truck has 240,000 mi on it now, so, even through it still runs great, its probably gonna need to be rebuild in about another 60k, instead of rebuilding it im just gonna put a new (newer) engine in.

ideally i would like to pull a 4.6SOHC out of a wrecked mustang or something. and if down the road i decide to supercharge that motor, ill be looking at 400+ net hp, but even with out ive got a very streetable and highly reliable 300hp.

ive considered dropping a 4.0 in the truck but i really like the idea of a v8, im a v8 guy and it would really give the truck an ass shit ton of power, plus, it would be very unique.

Thomas M-4
05-26-09, 23:10
ive looked around the ranger station and the v8 swaps are VERY popular over there.

supercharging a 3.0 is not an option for me. for one, i love the sound of a v8, and dont want my ranger to sound like a supercharged super pissed off dixie chopper, not to mention, even with a super charger, im dropping tons of money to have my engine rebuilt and configured for a super charger, plus the install of the super charger it self.

another reason that a v8 swap is appealing to me is that my truck has 240,000 mi on it now, so, even through it still runs great, its probably gonna need to be rebuild in about another 60k, instead of rebuilding it im just gonna put a new (newer) engine in.

ideally i would like to pull a 4.6SOHC out of a wrecked mustang or something. and if down the road i decide to supercharge that motor, ill be looking at 400+ net hp, but even with out ive got a very streetable and highly reliable 300hp.

ive considered dropping a 4.0 in the truck but i really like the idea of a v8, im a v8 guy and it would really give the truck an ass shit ton of power, plus, it would be very unique.

4.6 is to wide i believe for a ranger. It is wider than a 5.0

If you want a v-8 swap then I would recommend 5.0 liter EFI you can pick up a wireharness from painless wiring. Best bet see if you can find 5.0 V-8 from a explorer they have better heads and intake manifold 5spd tremec or T-5 worldclass tranny. Dont worry about trying to squeeze more power out of the v-8 from the start its going to be a big power boost just swapping from a 3.0 to the 5.0.

Mr.Goodtimes
05-26-09, 23:21
did the explorers come with a t5 in them?

i was thinking about pulling the v8 and rear end out of an explorer as they had the 8in rear end.

the 4.6 is a wide motor, and i remember reading on therangerstaion a thread where a guy had done it, but it required some pretty serious fabrication and modification to the engine bay. the 5.0 EFI is probably the way to go as it will practically drop right in, engine mounts are readily available to adapt the 5.0 to the ranger.

Mr.Goodtimes
05-26-09, 23:28
how much power can i expect form a 5.0 pulled from an explorer in its bone stock form? im thinkin about 260hp?

snipertn
05-26-09, 23:33
Other considerations for your BOV:

What types of fuel are available in the direction you will go?
Will there be any junk yards that could be raided for parts if needed?
What parts and fuel are available on the route/alt route?
Are there any friendlys you know personaly to hook up with in route?
If speed is needed will my vehicle be capabile to get myself and family out of hars way?
Just a few more things to consider and my 2 cents.

snipertn


Those who don't remember history, are doomed to repeat it.

WS6
05-27-09, 06:18
wow, that camburg stuff is NICE! thats def the suspension im gonna go with. i really like the fender flares they make as well!

in addition to a good suspension and good chassis, i still want more power. the 3.0L v6 thats in my truck currently barely has enough power to get out of its own way. i also want the raw power so the truck will get up and move from a stop, and be able to power through mudd and in addition, go from 0-80is, really damn fast, mostly, just because i want it to, part of its CDI.

i may consider just dropping a 4.6L SOHC in there out of a mustang, but im not sure if thats as easy as putting a 302 in. what would be nice though is i wouldnt have to do any real internal work. i could probably get close to 300 to the wheels just with some bolt on stuff.

Ummm...a 99 or newer 4.6L SOHC mustang engine will not hit 300whp until you slap in cams, PP'ed heads, etc. My WS6 lays waste to those dogs all day long even with full bolt-ons and tonnes of other stuff. Pure junk until you get into FI or DOHC 4.6's. Go with the 302. Cheaper parts. Easier to make power. More displacement.

THe most pwoerful N/A 4.6 SOHC I saw layed down around 340whp and had a redline well north of 7,000rpm with stage 3 PP'ed heads, custome ground cams for the application...you get the idea. VERY unlike what you are looking for.

A stock SOHC engine from a 4.6L GT will lay down around 260-270whp through a 5-speed with headers and minor bolt-ons. Stock, maybe around 230-240whp. Through an automatic, around 215-225.

WS6
05-27-09, 06:20
how much power can i expect form a 5.0 pulled from an explorer in its bone stock form? im thinkin about 260hp?

About 215-225 to the tires through a manual transmission, depending on the headers you use for the swap. If those are GT40P heads though, you don't have many choices for headers. VERY FEW fit them.

I would see if you can't drop a stock LS1 in there. I have raced lots of fully built stock displacement N/A mustangs and killed every one of them except for a full DSS build with cams/heads/gears/etc in a late-model Bullit, and I lost that one by about 2 cars. The kicker? It was 65-115 and I was in 4th gear the whole time instead of dropping in 3rd and killing him like I should have. I thought he was closer to stock than he was.

For stock low-end grunt with solid pull all the way to redline, an LS1 is your cheapest bet. No mods needed. Kicks ass out of the box. Ask the Z4M's, 05+ GT's, Lightnings, and built mustangs :)

Thomas M-4
05-27-09, 09:33
About 215-225 to the tires through a manual transmission, depending on the headers you use for the swap. If those are GT40P heads though, you don't have many choices for headers. VERY FEW fit them.

I would see if you can't drop a stock LS1 in there. I have raced lots of fully built stock displacement N/A mustangs and killed every one of them except for a full DSS build with cams/heads/gears/etc in a late-model Bullit, and I lost that one by about 2 cars. The kicker? It was 65-115 and I was in 4th gear the whole time instead of dropping in 3rd and killing him like I should have. I thought he was closer to stock than he was.

For stock low-end grunt with solid pull all the way to redline, an LS1 is your cheapest bet. No mods needed. Kicks ass out of the box. Ask the Z4M's, 05+ GT's, Lightnings, and built mustangs :)

When the gt-40p heads came out years ago I thought the same thing need special headers but after seeing 2 guys use those heads with standard headers I now know it is possible [ all you do is dimple the headers for clearance of sparkplugs] besides if my memories haven't failed a ranger 5.0 swap you use shortie mustang headers and MAC makes gt-40p headers http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/4379_gt_40p_heads/index.html
It isn't fair to compare an LS1 with a 5.0 the 5.0 kicked GMs L-98 and LT1s 350ci
ass for 10 years if you want to pick on mustangs with the LS1 go look for an 03 supercharged cobra LOL. The LS1 does make a great create swap package but i wouldn't put one in a ranger I would stick one in camburgs trophy truck chassis http://www.camburg.com/Kinetik.html that would be a sick combo.

Nathan_Bell
05-27-09, 09:44
IMHO, the money you are going to spend on tuning the Ranger, might be better spent on buying a mid-80's- mid-90's F150 with the 300 Straight Six in it. If you are looking for a BOV. That motor is not a rocketship, but you have to try and kill it, repeatedly, to make it stay dead.

Also look at the Cherokee with the Straight six. Not a horsepower monster, but damned tough pieice of motor.

If you start putting a high out pout engine onto your BOV, you are decreasing your range on a tank of fuel.

Mr.Goodtimes
05-27-09, 10:06
I would see if you can't drop a stock LS1 in there.


this idea sir, is full of win :D i really love GM's LSx series of engine. my dad has an LS2 in his gto that not only sounds like pure evil, it is pure evil.

ive read where someone dropped an LS2 into a ford ranger, so, i dont see why it wouldnt be possible to drop in an LS1, and i could probably pick up an LS1 pretty cheap. i want to avoid complicated fabrication work though, so if it ends up requiring serious fab work, i wont be able to do it.

i do love the idea of an LS1 in my little ranger though, as i want to build it up to pretty close to something like this http://www.lasvegasprerunners.com/component/option,com_zoom/Itemid,9/catid,4/ its the first truck on that page. that truck looks like something very attainable. its not to wild, yet looks like a great offroad truck.

Thomas M-4
05-27-09, 10:49
IMHO, the money you are going to spend on tuning the Ranger, might be better spent on buying a mid-80's- mid-90's F150 with the 300 Straight Six in it. If you are looking for a BOV. That motor is not a rocketship, but you have to try and kill it, repeatedly, to make it stay dead.

Also look at the Cherokee with the Straight six. Not a horsepower monster, but damned tough pieice of motor.

If you start putting a high out pout engine onto your BOV, you are decreasing your range on a tank of fuel.

I agree trying to turn the ranger into a trophy truck is going to cost money out the a$$$$. I am older now and my days of swapping engines and transmissions and rebuilding every thing that breaks because you have over powered the original design are behind me now thank goodness. That straight 6 300ci f-150 gets TERRIBLE MPG you get more mpg with the 302 or 351 compared with that straight six but you are right the damn thing will run FOREVER.
The best thing he could do and I am probably going to do the same is find a good
Toyota Tacoma or Toyota Tundra with manual transmission install a camburg suspension or some others manufactures [ A good one that actually gives you CLEAN WHEEL TRAVEL and is designed for abuse not some shitty lift kit] regear it for the tires that you want to run. Leave the engine STOCK at most cat-back system and some kinda cold air induction system will give you small boost in power with out hurting reliability or driveablity . There are people that run toyotas set up like that in the baja 1000 and drive the truck back home when they are through.

I wouldn't get a diesel HIlux but just to get an idea about toyotas watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrk6vsb77xk

Thomas M-4
05-27-09, 11:46
Found some vids camburg suspension http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=703843846

camburg suspension http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LKHHUD7ZqE&feature=related

camburg tundra race truck http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU5o4RhbXSI&feature=related

This cool LoL HAHA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56gCgayJ4Xk&feature=related

Total Chaos does a lot of Toyota kits http://chaosfab.com/
there are a couple of 4 runners in there that would make nice BOV

Mr.Goodtimes
05-27-09, 12:26
awesome vids! that edge and tundra were sick!

WS6
05-27-09, 15:12
When the gt-40p heads came out years ago I thought the same thing need special headers but after seeing 2 guys use those heads with standard headers I now know it is possible [ all you do is dimple the headers for clearance of sparkplugs] besides if my memories haven't failed a ranger 5.0 swap you use shortie mustang headers and MAC makes gt-40p headers http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/4379_gt_40p_heads/index.html
It isn't fair to compare an LS1 with a 5.0 the 5.0 kicked GMs L-98 and LT1s 350ci
ass for 10 years if you want to pick on mustangs with the LS1 go look for an 03 supercharged cobra LOL. The LS1 does make a great create swap package but i wouldn't put one in a ranger I would stick one in camburgs trophy truck chassis http://www.camburg.com/Kinetik.html that would be a sick combo.

if I want to pick on a Cobra, I will do it in a Z06, which still lays 'em out. Apples to apples man...

Ford dropped the ball. Period. THey WERE KING until '93, then they just shit the bed, as far as I am concerned. The 99-04 was a joke, and 05 was a "clean" design. The stiffened things up GREATLY! They also went to 3.55's and a 31 spline axle...GREAT! move. But the 235 series tires and 281ci engine was a pure crap move. They could have easily used the 331ci engine. All they needed to do was use the same 5.4L we used in the trucks and re-profile the cams. Easy. However, they opted not to. I was very dissapointed and it put a dent in my sales plan (I worked as a ford sales rep during the 05's release). 98 base LS1 F-bodies still slaughter the 08 Base V8 mustangs. Weaksauce. A full decade and they STILL can't win. Get over the darn 281ci. It's not cutting it! Heck, even Nissan's V6 370Z is faster.

The only car they made worth-while WAS the 03/04 Terminator, and it is a force to be reckoned with! (as is the GT, but at .25 mil a pop new, it was a rip-off. MSRP of 160K was about how it performed, in my book).

Mustangs I have killed:

built 5.0 (95 mustang) w/cam, aluminum heads, full-bolt-ons, gears.
99 Cobra w/rebuilt motor and upped compression (zero-decked, about 10.25:1)
Every non FI 05+ I have ran

Mustangs I have lost to:
GT500 (4 cars 65-115)
Fully build 03 Bullit w/DSS stage III heads/cams (2 cars 65-115 with me in 4th gear the whole way...my fault, I still lost).

Tie:

Supercharged 96 Cobra. Dead even. Period. It was just like racing another F-body or 'vette.

Ford just doesn't make any power imho until you slap FI on it.

No, I don't think comparing an LS1 to a 5.0 is "wrong". Here is why: That 5.0 will NEVER make the low-end grunt of the LS1. Period. HE can buy an LS1 from a totalled F-body for $1500-2500 EASILY. I know a lot of guys are putting them in the 5.0 mustangs, and I can't see where it would be hard to put it in a ranger.

I was not comparing brand to brand. I was comparing performance per the dollar for his application. The LS1 delviers in spades!

Thomas M-4
05-27-09, 15:45
if I want to pick on a Cobra, I will do it in a Z06, which still lays 'em out. Apples to apples man...

Ford dropped the ball. Period. THey WERE KING until '93, then they just shit the bed, as far as I am concerned. The 99-04 was a joke, and 05 was a "clean" design. The stiffened things up GREATLY! They also went to 3.55's and a 31 spline axle...GREAT! move. But the 235 series tires and 281ci engine was a pure crap move. They could have easily used the 331ci engine. All they needed to do was use the same 5.4L we used in the trucks and re-profile the cams. Easy. However, they opted not to. I was very dissapointed and it put a dent in my sales plan (I worked as a ford sales rep during the 05's release). 98 base LS1 F-bodies still slaughter the 08 Base V8 mustangs. Weaksauce. A full decade and they STILL can't win. Get over the darn 281ci. It's not cutting it! Heck, even Nissan's V6 370Z is faster.

The only car they made worth-while WAS the 03/04 Terminator, and it is a force to be reckoned with! (as is the GT, but at .25 mil a pop new, it was a rip-off. MSRP of 160K was about how it performed, in my book).

Mustangs I have killed:

built 5.0 (95 mustang) w/cam, aluminum heads, full-bolt-ons, gears.
99 Cobra w/rebuilt motor and upped compression (zero-decked, about 10.25:1)
Every non FI 05+ I have ran

Mustangs I have lost to:
GT500 (4 cars 65-115)
Fully build 03 Bullit w/DSS stage III heads/cams (2 cars 65-115 with me in 4th gear the whole way...my fault, I still lost).

Tie:

Supercharged 96 Cobra. Dead even. Period. It was just like racing another F-body or 'vette.

Ford just doesn't make any power imho until you slap FI on it.

No, I don't think comparing an LS1 to a 5.0 is "wrong". Here is why: That 5.0 will NEVER make the low-end grunt of the LS1. Period. HE can buy an LS1 from a totalled F-body for $1500-2500 EASILY. I know a lot of guys are putting them in the 5.0 mustangs, and I can't see where it would be hard to put it in a ranger.

I was not comparing brand to brand. I was comparing performance per the dollar for his application. The LS1 delviers in spades!

Its not a far comparison 5.0 is a early 60s design with EFI update and roller cam
LS1 DESIGNED mid 90s thats 30+ years and 5.0=302CI Ls1 5.7=350CI even larger now days. The 03 cobra is fords response to the LS1 every car nut knows this it was advertised as such from ford.
And besides I wouldn't hold my breath on picking up a LS1 for $1500-$2500 easy for much longer. GM going into Bankruptcy today its been announced on the news and something tells me the government isn't going to let it be the big time HP maker it was.:p

WS6
05-27-09, 15:49
Its not a far comparison 5.0 is a early 60s design with EFI update and roller cam
LS1 DESIGNED mid 90s thats 30+ years and 5.0=302CI Ls1 5.7=350CI even larger now days. The 03 cobra is fords response to the LS1 every car nut knows this it was advertised as such from ford.
And besides I wouldn't hold my breath on picking up a LS1 for $1500-$2500 easy for much longer. GM going into Bankruptcy today its been announced on the news and something tells me the government isn't going to let it be the big time HP maker it was.:p

Doesn't matter. The 5.0 (mustang 5.0 fox) hasn't been made for almost 2 decades, yet I bought mine for $1,000 cash in perfect body condition with a running engine and a buggered tranny.

The LS1 is here to stay. Like it or not.

He will be able to find an LS1 pretty easily. Heck, he can buy a NEW one from GM for under 4K sans wiring harness. I would just find a wrecked Fbody though, shouldn't be hard at all. Hell, he can find a running/working F_body for around $7K and then sell the body as a roller for $3500 or so. Keep the engine/tranny.

The 03/04 Cobra never was a response to the LS1 regaurdless of what anyone says. It did not have the production numbers. Performance wise, yes it is, but production/sales wise, I don't think so. It was not meant to compete with a $22K Z28.

Besides, if it was a response, it came a bit late, wouldn't you say? Kindof showed up to the court after the other team left.


--GM financially--

I am not really a GM fan. THeir drivelines are all but without par (except for the 7.5" rear end...), but their cars suck. Pathetic attention to detail/durability.

I am a hardcore Viper fan. Oh yes, Dodge is in the shitter. NO ARGUMENT. But again, plenty of Vipers will be on the market when I am ready to buy in 2 years, and they have enough production to have staying power. I will never want for parts/service.

--aging 5.0 design--

You are right, but GM perfected the pushrod from 93 to 97 while the LS1 was under development while Ford started doing the OHC thing and hasn't made a decent motor yet excluding their FI versions. They should have stuck with the more efficient Cam In Block design.

LS1= Better mileage/More power/ More longevity than any 4.6L ford has made that I am aware of except the FI versions. How does THAT happen? almost 60ci more displacement, AND better mileage? Wow...weak one Ford...weak one.

Just look at a dyno curve for the 4.6L engine (non FI) and the LS1 engine. Now keep in mind the LS1 gets better mileage. Now understand that it weighs less and is smaller.

Why would you want a 4.6L now?

Thomas M-4
05-27-09, 16:00
Doesn't matter. The 5.0 (mustang 5.0 fox) hasn't been made for almost 2 decades, yet I bought mine for $1,000 cash in perfect body condition with a running engine and a buggered tranny.

The LS1 is here to stay. Like it or not.

He will be able to find an LS1 pretty easily. Heck, he can buy a NEW one from GM for under 4K sans wiring harness. I would just find a wrecked Fbody though, shouldn't be hard at all. Hell, he can find a running/working F_body for around $7K and then sell the body as a roller for $3500 or so. Keep the engine/tranny.

The 03/04 Cobra never was a response to the LS1 regaurdless of what anyone says. It did not have the production numbers. Performance wise, yes it is, but production/sales wise, I don't think so. It was not meant to compete with a $22K Z28.

Besides, if it was a response, it came a bit late, wouldn't you say? Kindof showed up to the court after the other team left.

The 302 CI WINDSOR engine IS A 60S DESIGN ITS AN OVERBORED 289 OE in the 65 mustang IAM not talking about the FOX BODY IT WAS RELEASED IN 1979 and for as late response goes were was GM from 87-93? the fastest thing GM had was the 87 BUICK GN. A 88 GT would hand a 88 Vetts ass to it.

The 4.6 wasnt designed fo max HP its first release was in the crown vic and it doesnt stand up to a LS1 but IT wasnt designed to it was released before the Ls1 was even on the drawing board.
I agree with you GM did a number with the LS1 DRIVE TRAIN its great they deserve all the credit for that.

WS6
05-27-09, 16:22
The 302 CI WINDSOR engine IS A 60S DESIGN ITS AN OVERBORED 289 OE in the 65 mustang IAM not talking about the FOX BODY IT WAS RELEASED IN 1979 and for as late response goes were was GM from 87-93? the fastest thing GM had was the 87 BUICK GN. A 88 GT would hand a 88 Vetts ass to it.

The 4.6 wasnt designed fo max HP its first release was in the crown vic and it doesnt stand up to a LS1 but IT wasnt designed to it was released before the Ls1 was even on the drawing board.
I agree with you GM did a number with the LS1 DRIVE TRAIN its great they deserve all the credit for that.

The DOHC 4.6, while making it's debut in the Lincoln cannot be used as an example either.

HOWEVER, the 3V 4.6L V8 in the new Mustang CAN. It was designed specifically for that vehicle.

Every contemporary out there (LS1 F-bodies, 350Z's, Challenger, etc.) except for the Dodge Charger hands it it's arse as well, and that's a 4-door. They end up close to equal. Ford doesn't make power without a blower.

Yes, I understand the 5.0 is a 60's design. I simply stated that the LS1 will never go out of vogue. My 5.0 GT is still cheap after almsot 20 years of not being made, that was my reference, not one stating that the 5.0 was an 80's design. I think you misinterpreted. (I was justifying the LS1 even though GM is going TU).

During the 80's Ford was the only ride in town besides the GN. Correct.

ETA: In '93 GM created the new LT1. Which put a hurting anything ford made until 2005. Ouch. By then we had the LS1.

I have owned a built 5.0, a LT1 F-body (auto) and an LS1 F-body (6-speed). I wish I had had a stock 5.0, because my 5.0 felt more like a tq-less and slightly less powerful LS1 (light weight of my fox and 4.10's helped a lot!) the way the powerband was set up. HUGE cam.

Thomas M-4
05-27-09, 16:52
The DOHC 4.6, while making it's debut in the Lincoln cannot be used as an example either.

HOWEVER, the 3V 4.6L V8 in the new Mustang CAN. It was designed specifically for that vehicle.

Every contemporary out there (LS1 F-bodies, 350Z's, Challenger, etc.) except for the Dodge Charger hands it it's arse as well, and that's a 4-door. They end up close to equal. Ford doesn't make power without a blower.

Yes, I understand the 5.0 is a 60's design. I simply stated that the LS1 will never go out of vogue. My 5.0 GT is still cheap after almsot 20 years of not being made, that was my reference, not one stating that the 5.0 was an 80's design. I think you misinterpreted. (I was justifying the LS1 even though GM is going TU).

During the 80's Ford was the only ride in town besides the GN. Correct.

ETA: In '93 GM created the new LT1. Which put a hurting anything ford made until 2005. Ouch. By then we had the LS1.

I have owned a built 5.0, a LT1 F-body (auto) and an LS1 F-body (6-speed). I wish I had had a stock 5.0, because my 5.0 felt more like a tq-less and slightly less powerful LS1 (light weight of my fox and 4.10's helped a lot!) the way the powerband was set up. HUGE cam.

I think ford was starting to see the righting on the wall with 3v 4.6L i am not a huge fan of the modular motors 2v 3v or4v but it is cheaper to produce and times do change.
LT1 pleeasse that motor sucked big time donky dick thats why GM went straight back to the drawing board and then on the second try cam out with a winner [LS1] I have never seen a LT1 beat a 5.0 LOL hell my buddy had a 88GT stock 2.73 gears 180,000 mile factory motor that sent LT1 slowmaros back home crying.
Flowmaster catback and bumped 14 degree timing 295/50/15 on turbine wheels
hell after he whooped the first 3 we could never get another LT1 to race any 5.0 ever again LOL
GM won a big one with the LS1 POWERTRAIN but I think that they may have just lost the war if the government takes 70% and The UAW runs it :(

WS6
05-27-09, 17:15
I think ford was starting to see the righting on the wall with 3v 4.6L i am not a huge fan of the modular motors 2v 3v or4v but it is cheaper to produce and times do change.
LT1 pleeasse that motor sucked big time donky dick thats why GM went straight back to the drawing board and then on the second try cam out with a winner [LS1] I have never seen a LT1 beat a 5.0 LOL hell my buddy had a 88GT stock 2.73 gears 180,000 mile factory motor that sent LT1 slowmaros back home crying.
Flowmaster catback and bumped 14 degree timing 295/50/15 on turbine wheels
hell after he whooped the first 3 we could never get another LT1 to race any 5.0 ever again LOL
GM won a big one with the LS1 POWERTRAIN but I think that they may have just lost the war if the government takes 70% and The UAW runs it :(

Wierd, my LT1 was killer. Most LT1's dyno around 240-260whp stock depending on transmission and run 13.7-14.4 or so.

Mine was a auto 2.73. I ran only one LS1, 0-50 we were even, then he bulled ahead of me and walked. He was lightly modded.

I would put my LT1 against any stock 5.0 any time, any where, if I still had it. It definitely felt stronger than my friends 03 GT Auto.

It has been a while, but I am trying to think of any other races I had in it, I didn't run that one that much to be honest. I will say that it felt very strong. It definitely would put the smack down.

I killed a 350Z when they first came out. Errr...I raced a 5-speed 99-04 GT on the freeway once and I pussy-footed it and only dropped into 3rd while the girl in the GT also hit 3rd (MUCH stronger gearing with her 5-speed). I could have hit 2nd at 70 and blown her off the road, instead I hit 3rd, which resulted in her SLOWLY creeping away while I chugged along at about 3400rpm. Had we gone long enough for me to wind it out and her to need 4th, I would have walked her.

LT1's are finicky cars though, their opti-spark is CRAP. Perhapse your friend met up with a few that had some issues. Optispark going out will make that car a turd.

I wish I had run mine at the strip. As I said, it was a very strong car. All I had was a Moroso CAI. Judging how I did vs. that LS1 and how I did in my LS1 vs. most 4.6L new-edge GT's had I run them more/from a dig/anywhere but "the dead-zone" that auto LT1/LS1's have, I can say that my LT1 woulda probably clowned the new-edge GT's. Everyone who rode in my LT1 said it raped my friend's GT (03). My friend also stopped talking smack after I bought it and refused to line them up.

ETA: I question your buddy's tires. My turbine rims would NOT accept 295's. I am going to have to call "prove it" on this one. IIRC, those rims are something like 7-7.5" or something. 245 is about as wide as I think you can go.

ETA: I did race a friend, it was short 0-50mph. He had a 89 LX 5.0 5-speed with 3.73's, CAI, shorties (aftermarket), new clutch, bumped timing (13* IIRC). Ran a 14.0 at the track as I recall. I INCHED on him by a bit. Been so long I forgot. This guy was a driver as well. Powershifting was his forte.

Thomas M-4
05-27-09, 18:00
Wierd, my LT1 was killer. Most LT1's dyno around 240-260whp stock depending on transmission and run 13.7-14.4 or so.

Mine was a auto 2.73. I ran only one LS1, 0-50 we were even, then he bulled ahead of me and walked. He was lightly modded.

I would put my LT1 against any stock 5.0 any time, any where, if I still had it. It definitely felt stronger than my friends 03 GT Auto.

It has been a while, but I am trying to think of any other races I had in it, I didn't run that one that much to be honest. I will say that it felt very strong. It definitely would put the smack down.

I killed a 350Z when they first came out. Errr...I raced a 5-speed 99-04 GT on the freeway once and I pussy-footed it and only dropped into 3rd while the girl in the GT also hit 3rd (MUCH stronger gearing with her 5-speed). I could have hit 2nd at 70 and blown her off the road, instead I hit 3rd, which resulted in her SLOWLY creeping away while I chugged along at about 3400rpm. Had we gone long enough for me to wind it out and her to need 4th, I would have walked her.

LT1's are finicky cars though, their opti-spark is CRAP. Perhapse your friend met up with a few that had some issues. Optispark going out will make that car a turd.

I wish I had run mine at the strip. As I said, it was a very strong car. All I had was a Moroso CAI. Judging how I did vs. that LS1 and how I did in my LS1 vs. most 4.6L new-edge GT's had I run them more/from a dig/anywhere but "the dead-zone" that auto LT1/LS1's have, I can say that my LT1 woulda probably clowned the new-edge GT's. Everyone who rode in my LT1 said it raped my friend's GT (03). My friend also stopped talking smack after I bought it and refused to line them up.

ETA: I question your buddy's tires. My turbine rims would NOT accept 295's. I am going to have to call "prove it" on this one. IIRC, those rims are something like 7-7.5" or something. 245 is about as wide as I think you can go.

ETA: I did race a friend, it was short 0-50mph. He had a 89 LX 5.0 5-speed with 3.73's, CAI, shorties (aftermarket), new clutch, bumped timing (13* IIRC). Ran a 14.0 at the track as I recall. I INCHED on him by a bit. Been so long I forgot. This guy was a driver as well. Powershifting was his forte.

Lt1 s 13.7 -14.4 I let you in on a little secret the 88gt 5spd was the fastest production 93-87 mustang with a good driver most 88s could break into the high 13s off the showroom it ran with speed density ecu not mass air ecu and the cam i have been told has tighter lob seperation and slighty more duration If you ever hear one idling next to a mass air 5.0 there is a slight difference 88s in good shape pull harder in the low to mid range than the mass air brother kicker is you cant change cams, heads ,intake it would screw with the ecu but many 88gt could break into the high 12s with cat-back ,long tubes,14degrees timing 3.73gears but 4.10 worked better and slicks oh hey also run a short belt bypassing the smog pump. you did that combo with a good running 88gt and a madman behind the wheel and you would be in the 12s LOL I feel OLD Many years ago when I was all into this 1 child and 1 wife AGO

WS6
05-27-09, 21:32
Lt1 s 13.7 -14.4 I let you in on a little secret the 88gt 5spd was the fastest production 93-87 mustang with a good driver most 88s could break into the high 13s off the showroom it ran with speed density ecu not mass air ecu and the cam i have been told has tighter lob seperation and slighty more duration If you ever hear one idling next to a mass air 5.0 there is a slight difference 88s in good shape pull harder in the low to mid range than the mass air brother kicker is you cant change cams, heads ,intake it would screw with the ecu but many 88gt could break into the high 12s with cat-back ,long tubes,14degrees timing 3.73gears but 4.10 worked better and slicks oh hey also run a short belt bypassing the smog pump. you did that combo with a good running 88gt and a madman behind the wheel and you would be in the 12s LOL I feel OLD Many years ago when I was all into this 1 child and 1 wife AGO

My built 88GT was a dog. Maybe I did it wrong.

Edelbrock intake
575 Demon carb
X303 cam
GT40P heads
MAC headers
10.5:1 compression
Probe forged flat-tops
4.10's
TKO500 tranny
FMS aluminum DS
MSD 6AL

lots of other stuff.

Yes, the 88 was speed-density and a little faster, and yes it had a SLIGHTLY more aggressive cam, and yes it had forged pistons (unlike the '93).

I am pretty familiar with the 5.0 platform (yes, I know the X303 cam and GT40P's don't roll well togather...well it was a crate motor and I did not research the company very well. Apparently they went TU soon after I bought mine.)

I had it running a mass-air computer from a 5-speed car (A9L, IIRC, I forget the ECU names, it's been a while). THen swapped to carb. Carb gave better low-end/throttle response, while EFI offered a better power curve, it felt like. Either way, the car never lived up to it's expectations. The WS6 trumps it hands down.

It was a little faster than automatic 05+ GT's from a roll, which doesn't say much. On a 2.15 60' on crappy tires blowing them off when I hit 2nd, it ran a 14.7@98.9mph.

My WS6, bogging the shit out of it with a 2.4 60' was running 14.1@102+mph with a full tank of gas granny-shifting it.

*The reason for the bog was I already trashed one rear-end just backing out of the drive-way, and the tires were new as of that afternoon and they were wheel-hopping a bit at the track, which wasn't prepped well at all. I just babied it off the line basically.


A high-13 second 5.0 is like a high 12-second LS1 F-body. It ain't common at all. For every one that does it, there are a hundred that won't. Yes...it CAN happen, but then I think the fastest stock LT1 F-body ran like a 13.6.

Thomas M-4
05-27-09, 22:52
My built 88GT was a dog. Maybe I did it wrong.

Edelbrock intake
575 Demon carb
X303 cam
GT40P heads
MAC headers
10.5:1 compression
Probe forged flat-tops
4.10's
TKO500 tranny
FMS aluminum DS
MSD 6AL

lots of other stuff.

Yes, the 88 was speed-density and a little faster, and yes it had a SLIGHTLY more aggressive cam, and yes it had forged pistons (unlike the '93).

I am pretty familiar with the 5.0 platform (yes, I know the X303 cam and GT40P's don't roll well togather...well it was a crate motor and I did not research the company very well. Apparently they went TU soon after I bought mine.)

I had it running a mass-air computer from a 5-speed car (A9L, IIRC, I forget the ECU names, it's been a while). THen swapped to carb. Carb gave better low-end/throttle response, while EFI offered a better power curve, it felt like. Either way, the car never lived up to it's expectations. The WS6 trumps it hands down.

It was a little faster than automatic 05+ GT's from a roll, which doesn't say much. On a 2.15 60' on crappy tires blowing them off when I hit 2nd, it ran a 14.7@98.9mph.

My WS6, bogging the shit out of it with a 2.4 60' was running 14.1@102+mph with a full tank of gas granny-shifting it.

*The reason for the bog was I already trashed one rear-end just backing out of the drive-way, and the tires were new as of that afternoon and they were wheel-hopping a bit at the track, which wasn't prepped well at all. I just babied it off the line basically.


A high-13 second 5.0 is like a high 12-second LS1 F-body. It ain't common at all. For every one that does it, there are a hundred that won't. Yes...it CAN happen, but then I think the fastest stock LT1 F-body ran like a 13.6.

The fastest GT I had was a 91 AOD HAHA i know what you are thinking
but that AOD DIDN'T like 5spds and put many of them away
MODS
Moroso cold air induction
14 degrees timing
Shorty headers [I bought them before I knew I how much better long tubes were]
Offroad H-pipe 2 1/2 inch
2 1/2 cat back pro dumps
Mac underdrive pulleys and bypassed smogpump
Moroso solid motor & transmount
Msd coil and 6al box
3.73:1 gears THEN 4.10
svo aluminum drive shaft
with that It would do a 9.38 in the 8th
Then had to rebuild tranny
transgo recalibration kit 4r70w clutch basket and gearset one piece input shaft
2200-2400 custom stallion torque converter none lock up with 2.0 torque multiplication and a AODE overdrive band supercoupe OD servo
Flexlight electric fan
Kenny Brown sub-frame connectors
Kenny Brown engine bay brace
155lph fuel pump and adj fuel pressure regulator set 6-8psi above stock
Jegs tubular lower control arms
With that combo it would run 8.98-8.93 in the 8th with a 2.00 60ft with 225 yoko street tires!! on 16 inch pony wheels
Like I said that AOD didn't like 5spds


I had a couple of buds try to run those 303 camshafts one was F-303 crap
another one B-303 it pulled better in the midrange he had stock heads and intake were choking it.
The best one by far was an E-303 that guy was running cobra intake 65mm TB
gt-40p heads and long tube headrs and 3.73 gears VERY well matched combo
when he hit second it pulled as if it was still in 1st. Lots of guys mess up big time when picking camshafts.
Worked with a guy few years ago had a 94 gt with dss 331 stroker TFS intake and edelbroke cylinder heads and some stupid BENNET custom ground camshaft ::rolleyes: that totaly killed that motor WAY to big of a camshaft for that combo.


Funny how everbody runs that aluminum drive shaft after you change the gear ratio :D son of bitch vibrate your teeth out at 55mph if you don't

If you would haved run E-303 camhaft cobra intake 65mmTB 24lb injectors with a good mass air sensor those chrome sheet metal promass sensors suck big time on a NA motor they are ok on a SC motor but not NA
Your combo should have been pretty sweet

Thomas M-4
05-27-09, 23:25
What rpm was you taking off the line with that 88gt 5spd .
This sounds crazy but i swear it works and I didn't believe it until I saw it done
most people including me would dump the clutch at 2000 maybe 2200 on street tires then slowly push the pedal down trying not to spin or bog.
Then I was shown that taking off at 4500 rpm and carefully walking the clutch out slowly to control wheel spin.. I know burns clutches and transmission like a son of a bitch but it works and if you get good at it your 60 ft times drop like mad.
Run that bitch like you stole it LOL;)

WS6
05-27-09, 23:39
The fastest GT I had was a 91 AOD HAHA i know what you are thinking
but that AOD DIDN'T like 5spds and put many of them away
MODS
Moroso cold air induction
14 degrees timing
Shorty headers [I bought them before I knew I how much better long tubes were]
Offroad H-pipe 2 1/2 inch
2 1/2 cat back pro dumps
Mac underdrive pulleys and bypassed smogpump
Moroso solid motor & transmount
Msd coil and 6al box
3.73:1 gears THEN 4.10
svo aluminum drive shaft
with that It would do a 9.38 in the 8th
Then had to rebuild tranny
transgo recalibration kit 4r70w clutch basket and gearset one piece input shaft
2200-2400 custom stallion torque converter none lock up with 2.0 torque multiplication and a AODE overdrive band supercoupe OD servo
Flexlight electric fan
Kenny Brown sub-frame connectors
Kenny Brown engine bay brace
155lph fuel pump and adj fuel pressure regulator set 6-8psi above stock
Jegs tubular lower control arms
With that combo it would run 8.98-8.93 in the 8th with a 2.00 60ft with 225 yoko street tires!! on 16 inch pony wheels
Like I said that AOD didn't like 5spds


I had a couple of buds try to run those 303 camshafts one was F-303 crap
another one B-303 it pulled better in the midrange he had stock heads and intake were choking it.
The best one by far was an E-303 that guy was running cobra intake 65mm TB
gt-40p heads and long tube headrs and 3.73 gears VERY well matched combo
when he hit second it pulled as if it was still in 1st. Lots of guys mess up big time when picking camshafts.
Worked with a guy few years ago had a 94 gt with dss 331 stroker TFS intake and edelbroke cylinder heads and some stupid BENNET custom ground camshaft ::rolleyes: that totaly killed that motor WAY to big of a camshaft for that combo.


Funny how everbody runs that aluminum drive shaft after you change the gear ratio :D son of bitch vibrate your teeth out at 55mph if you don't

If you would haved run E-303 camhaft cobra intake 65mmTB 24lb injectors with a good mass air sensor those chrome sheet metal promass sensors suck big time on a NA motor they are ok on a SC motor but not NA
Your combo should have been pretty sweet

With all of your mods you were running the equivalent of VERY HIGH 13's (13.88 is what a 8.90 1/8 mile time works out to) on a pretty solid 60'. Your slaughter of other 5.0's with what is basically a 14 second car confirms what I have been saying. LT1>5.0 as long as both cars are competantly driven and in good shape.

9.35=14.59 in the 1/4 mile. Almost any LT1 F-body in any sort of decent shape can turn these times or better.

Here is a perfect group of examples:
http://www.dragtimes.com/Chevrolet-Camaro-Timeslip-14043.html
^this guy pulls a 14.0XX with only a 2.2 60' in a bone-stock automatic LT1 with 2.73 gears.

http://www.dragtimes.com/Pontiac-Trans-Am-Timeslip-13917.html
^A less-glamorous 14.65 with a 2.23 60' and a 6-speed car. My guess is the guy can't drive. He also had 183K miles on it and his opti-spark is suspect. He also did this on 90* octane gas on a car with 10.5:1 compression in 80* weather (minimum 91* is recommended IIRC my LT1 days, with premium HIGHLY suggested.). Not a smart cookie. I bet it was pulling timing, look at is weak mph (95.XX). A lot of stuff I think you can agree conspired to that crappy timeslip. Either way, he still is all but dead-even with your bolt-on 5.0 even with his handi-caps until you re-did the tranny.

Here is a stock 91 GT running a mid 15.
http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Mustang-Timeslip-13070.html
2.3X 60' indicates driver is lacking though. Still, even pulling a 2.0 that car would barely be in the high 14's.

http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Mustang-Timeslip-9297.html
There is a 94 5.0 with AODE running another mid 15 with another poor 60' time.



I did not cherry pick any of these times. I simply went to dragtimes.com, went through the F_bodies clicking the "Stock" selection box and posted all the times I found for Camaro/Trans Ams. I did the same thing from 87-95 on the mustangs.

I am guessing your mph was probably 94-98mph.

Good times for an AOD 5.0 and about what I would expect with your list of bolt-ons.


Whole point being...the OP could buy a stock LS1...or worry about what crap and custom cam and on and on he can do to a 5.0 to not equal...but get KINDA close to a rock stock LS1.

The 5.0 certainly had it's day, and noone will deny that, but the GM engines took over in the mid 90's and it will be at least another decade before Ford can compete. I hear they are going to run a 400hp "cammer" 5.0 mod motor in the 2012 mustangs...so? GM is already running 430+hp engines in the camaro. Now. In 2009.

Ford has been behind the curve since shortly after I was born. I grew up in a Ford family, but I am not a brand loyalist. Like I said. I am a Viper fan. I like what works, and I like the look of the brute.

WS6
05-27-09, 23:52
What rpm was you taking off the line with that 88gt 5spd .
This sounds crazy but i swear it works and I didn't believe it until I saw it done
most people including me would dump the clutch at 2000 maybe 2200 on street tires then slowly push the pedal down trying not to spin or bog.
Then I was shown that taking off at 4500 rpm and carefully walking the clutch out slowly to control wheel spin.. I know burns clutches and transmission like a son of a bitch but it works and if you get good at it your 60 ft times drop like mad.
Run that bitch like you stole it LOL;)

I launched my 5.0 at idle and got 2.15 60's on crappy Cooper Cobra tires, lol. I doubt those meats were good for any better no matter HOW it was launched! I ran a TKO500 and a King Cobra clutch.

No matter what, it just didn't have the horsepower. The 17" flex-fan was NOT good, nor the heavy tranny or 4.10's, but it only layed down 242rwhp and the A/F stayed around 12.9-13.1 the whole run. Carb was dialed in pretty darn well. Car just didn't have balls. It did have one hell of a redline though!

Yes, slipping the clutch and powershifting the 1-2 are worth another .2-.3 in the 1/4, not worth it to me though. I am currently a broke college student. My WS6 is rather expensive to repair.

Thomas M-4
05-28-09, 09:17
With all of your mods you were running the equivalent of VERY HIGH 13's (13.88 is what a 8.90 1/8 mile time works out to) on a pretty solid 60'. Your slaughter of other 5.0's with what is basically a 14 second car confirms what I have been saying. LT1>5.0 as long as both cars are competantly driven and in good shape.

9.35=14.59 in the 1/4 mile. Almost any LT1 F-body in any sort of decent shape can turn these times or better.

Here is a perfect group of examples:
http://www.dragtimes.com/Chevrolet-Camaro-Timeslip-14043.html
^this guy pulls a 14.0XX with only a 2.2 60' in a bone-stock automatic LT1 with 2.73 gears.

http://www.dragtimes.com/Pontiac-Trans-Am-Timeslip-13917.html
^A less-glamorous 14.65 with a 2.23 60' and a 6-speed car. My guess is the guy can't drive. He also had 183K miles on it and his opti-spark is suspect. He also did this on 90* octane gas on a car with 10.5:1 compression in 80* weather (minimum 91* is recommended IIRC my LT1 days, with premium HIGHLY suggested.). Not a smart cookie. I bet it was pulling timing, look at is weak mph (95.XX). A lot of stuff I think you can agree conspired to that crappy timeslip. Either way, he still is all but dead-even with your bolt-on 5.0 even with his handi-caps until you re-did the tranny.

Here is a stock 91 GT running a mid 15.
http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Mustang-Timeslip-13070.html
2.3X 60' indicates driver is lacking though. Still, even pulling a 2.0 that car would barely be in the high 14's.

http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Mustang-Timeslip-9297.html
There is a 94 5.0 with AODE running another mid 15 with another poor 60' time.



I did not cherry pick any of these times. I simply went to dragtimes.com, went through the F_bodies clicking the "Stock" selection box and posted all the times I found for Camaro/Trans Ams. I did the same thing from 87-95 on the mustangs.

I am guessing your mph was probably 94-98mph.

Good times for an AOD 5.0 and about what I would expect with your list of bolt-ons.


Whole point being...the OP could buy a stock LS1...or worry about what crap and custom cam and on and on he can do to a 5.0 to not equal...but get KINDA close to a rock stock LS1.

The 5.0 certainly had it's day, and noone will deny that, but the GM engines took over in the mid 90's and it will be at least another decade before Ford can compete. I hear they are going to run a 400hp "cammer" 5.0 mod motor in the 2012 mustangs...so? GM is already running 430+hp engines in the camaro. Now. In 2009.

Ford has been behind the curve since shortly after I was born. I grew up in a Ford family, but I am not a brand loyalist. Like I said. I am a Viper fan. I like what works, and I like the look of the brute.


The lt1s around here back in the day must have needed driving lesson because they were turning low 8.90 the best i ever saw to 9.30 and most were in between
I never tried to work on the LT1 I don't know what mods they were trying I Did hear about the optispark giving people fits and something about the mass air sensors constantly going out. Needless to say I wasn't impressed it didn't live up to the expectations. And I am guessing that it didnt live up to GM expectations either hence its fast replacement. Needless to say the LS1s are most certainly running the show now. I sold my GT before the LS1s hit the street came damn close to picking up a LS1 firebird with auto but the centerdash raddled like a 82 camaro and it had T-tops yuck:p don't like getting rained on.
If the OP wants an LS1 powertrain wouldn't he get better use out of it in a long wheelbase truck preferably some thing he could set the motor back and try to get a better weight balance?

WS6
05-28-09, 09:22
The lt1s around here back in the day must have needed driving lesson because they were turning low 8.90 the best i ever saw to 9.30 and most were in between
I never tried to work on the LT1 I don't know what mods they were trying I Did hear about the optispark giving people fits and something about the mass air sensors constantly going out. Needless to say I wasn't impressed it didn't live up to the expectations. And I am guessing that it didnt live up to GM expectations either hence its fast replacement. Needless to say the LS1s are most certainly running the show now. I sold my GT before the LS1s hit the street came damn close to picking up a LS1 firebird with auto but the centerdash raddled like a 82 camaro and it had T-tops yuck:p don't like getting rained on.
If the OP wants an LS1 powertrain wouldn't he get better use out of it in a long wheelbase truck preferably some thing he could set the motor back and try to get a better weight balance?

My T-Tops leaked when I first got my WS6. Fixed that in a hurry though. People just don't know how to maintain a T-top car is all. Now I can roll through a hurricane and stay dry.

The LT1 lasted from 93 to 97. That is half a decade. Not bad really, and it still puts down more horsepower and was just as economic on gas as fords 99-04 4.6L SOHC. 8.9-9.3 is right on top of what I said, high 13's through mid/low 14's. Most 5.0's run mid 14's through mid 15's. Autos normally run 15.0-15.5 stock, and 5-speeds 14.5-15.0 stock, from what I have seen. While LT1's normally run 14.0-14.5.

Your experiences, and the timeslips I posted back this up.

LT1 mods normally consist of Moroso CAI, ORY, Catback. That will put them in the 260-270whp range. Then another step up is the LT1 hot-cam or LT4 cam and LT4 intake. Puts them around 290-320whp. THese are just off the top of my head and I forget the exact #'s. Each car is obviously different.

Of note: I raced a cammed LT1 6-speed (had no other mods, no support mods/headers/whatever) in my WS6 a while back and I would guess he was only making around 270-280whp. The lack of support mods (headers/CAI/) REALLY! hurt him.

Alas, LT1's need to be tuned. You cannot just swap computers as it is non-removable (same as LS1). Therefor, you have it tuned, not buy a chip.

I am betting a lot of mass-air sensors bit it b/c oil from over-zelous K&N filter oiling using a CAI.

Thomas M-4
05-28-09, 10:47
My T-Tops leaked when I first got my WS6. Fixed that in a hurry though. People just don't know how to maintain a T-top car is all. Now I can roll through a hurricane and stay dry.

The LT1 lasted from 93 to 97. That is half a decade. Not bad really, and it still puts down more horsepower and was just as economic on gas as fords 99-04 4.6L SOHC. 8.9-9.3 is right on top of what I said, high 13's through mid/low 14's. Most 5.0's run mid 14's through mid 15's. Autos normally run 15.0-15.5 stock, and 5-speeds 14.5-15.0 stock, from what I have seen. While LT1's normally run 14.0-14.5.

Your experiences, and the timeslips I posted back this up.

LT1 mods normally consist of Moroso CAI, ORY, Catback. That will put them in the 260-270whp range. Then another step up is the LT1 hot-cam or LT4 cam and LT4 intake. Puts them around 290-320whp. THese are just off the top of my head and I forget the exact #'s. Each car is obviously different.

Of note: I raced a cammed LT1 6-speed (had no other mods, no support mods/headers/whatever) in my WS6 a while back and I would guess he was only making around 270-280whp. The lack of support mods (headers/CAI/) REALLY! hurt him.

Alas, LT1's need to be tuned. You cannot just swap computers as it is non-removable (same as LS1). Therefor, you have it tuned, not buy a chip.

I am betting a lot of mass-air sensors bit it b/c oil from over-zelous K&N filter oiling using a CAI.

There wasn't any chassis dynos around here back in the day of course that has changed today most be 3 or 4 that I have heard of. If you had to burn a tune with every mod then that will make a difference I am guessing that puts the LT1 at a disadvantage if you cant dyno tune it. Never thought about the k&n filter oil killing the mass air sensor but it makes perfect sense. Never had that problem with the 5.0.

By the way the 88gt 5spd buddy had I cant remember the time with 2.73 gears but after he put 3.73 and electric fan he did squeeze an 8.45 out of it.
The guy was a madman behind the wheel I most have helped him swap out at least 6 T-5 trannys he welded the mainshaft gears on trying to crash shift one [crash shift shift with out the clutch] needless to say that tranny instantly went out . He busted 3 or 4 input shafts and 1 I know he broke the shift forks. He was really good at messing with people at the line he had a 2 stage rev limiter 2nd stage was set at 2500rpm with button activation on a t-handle shifter
He finaly killed that motor [droped valve] with stage 1 nitrious system after about 10 refills

WS6
05-28-09, 11:00
There wasn't any chassis dynos around here back in the day of course that has changed today most be 3 or 4 that I have heard of. If you had to burn a tune with every mod then that will make a difference I am guessing that puts the LT1 at a disadvantage if you cant dyno tune it. Never thought about the k&n filter oil killing the mass air sensor but it makes perfect sense. Never had that problem with the 5.0.

By the way the 88gt 5spd buddy had I cant remember the time with 2.73 gears but after he put 3.73 and electric fan he did squeeze an 8.45 out of it.
The guy was a madman behind the wheel I most have helped him swap out at least 6 T-5 trannys he welded the mainshaft gears on trying to crash shift one [crash shift shift with out the clutch] needless to say that tranny instantly went out . He busted 3 or 4 input shafts and 1 I know he broke the shift forks. He was really good at messing with people at the line he had a 2 stage rev limiter 2nd stage was set at 2500rpm with button activation on a t-handle shifter
He finaly killed that motor [droped valve] with stage 1 nitrious system after about 10 refills


8.45 is moving! I am guessing though that his mph was "low" for his ET. Sounds like a sick driver though!

Yes, there never has been, and probably never will be, a more friendly ECU than the A9P and A9L that ford used in the 89-93 5.0's.

That is the best ECU ever imho. When I had my 5.0 EFI, I was asking around about what a tune would do. Guy had similar mods to me (cam, heads, bumped compression, full bolt-ons) and he said he got 10whp out of a tune. The factory ECu does VERY WELL! jsut by itself. Made those cars REALLY easy to mod. Problem is, now days they have a 100rwhp disadvantage and only a 2-300# weight advantage at best. Netting them 70-80whp behind the curve.

ETA: ANY vehicle's MAF wires will get jacked with a K&N and over-agressive oiling of it. The solution is electircal contact cleaner spray, or alcohol, a Q-tip, and a gentle touch. I preferred the spray.

Thomas M-4
05-28-09, 13:15
8.45 is moving! I am guessing though that his mph was "low" for his ET. Sounds like a sick driver though!

Yes, there never has been, and probably never will be, a more friendly ECU than the A9P and A9L that ford used in the 89-93 5.0's.

That is the best ECU ever imho. When I had my 5.0 EFI, I was asking around about what a tune would do. Guy had similar mods to me (cam, heads, bumped compression, full bolt-ons) and he said he got 10whp out of a tune. The factory ECu does VERY WELL! jsut by itself. Made those cars REALLY easy to mod. Problem is, now days they have a 100rwhp disadvantage and only a 2-300# weight advantage at best. Netting them 70-80whp behind the curve.

ETA: ANY vehicle's MAF wires will get jacked with a K&N and over-agressive oiling of it. The solution is electircal contact cleaner spray, or alcohol, a Q-tip, and a gentle touch. I preferred the spray.

His uncle bought that GT new in 88 right off the dealership the story goes his uncle ran it off the road into a ditch in front of the dealership trying to show off his new car he always changed the oil regularly but drove it very hard from the first day that he had it until he sold it to my buddy Always wonder if the way it was broken in had to do with it running so good. When you drove that thing 4th gear on the free way 60 mph steady throttle you could feel it trying to surge.
Checked vacum hoses timming air intake hoses all were fine it was weird how it would try to surge just crusin it did pulll haarrdd when you floored it.
Hey his reputation with transmissions was bad I can tell very few people would let him drive there 5.0s Short heavy set feller with short fat arms he was good banging gears.

WS6
05-29-09, 00:22
His uncle bought that GT new in 88 right off the dealership the story goes his uncle ran it off the road into a ditch in front of the dealership trying to show off his new car he always changed the oil regularly but drove it very hard from the first day that he had it until he sold it to my buddy Always wonder if the way it was broken in had to do with it running so good. When you drove that thing 4th gear on the free way 60 mph steady throttle you could feel it trying to surge.
Checked vacum hoses timming air intake hoses all were fine it was weird how it would try to surge just crusin it did pulll haarrdd when you floored it.
Hey his reputation with transmissions was bad I can tell very few people would let him drive there 5.0s Short heavy set feller with short fat arms he was good banging gears.

Odd, maybe something was a bit wonky in the speed-density tune. Who knows. Either way. mid/low 8's in the 1/8 from a bolt-on 5.0 is nice!

Thomas M-4
05-29-09, 09:23
To get back on the subject of BOV has anybody got any experiences with Toyota
http://www.trdusa.com/partscatalog.cfm?view=detail&subcategory=37&vehicle=4runner TRD superchargers I was kicking around the Idea of toyota 4 runner with TRD supercharger and Total chaos long travel suspension kit http://www.chaosfab.com/tacomalong.html 4inches of lift and 13 inches of wheel travel twice the factory wheel travel.
Ideas ? Suggestions ?

WS6
05-29-09, 12:55
To get back on the subject of BOV has anybody got any experiences with Toyota
http://www.trdusa.com/partscatalog.cfm?view=detail&subcategory=37&vehicle=4runner TRD superchargers I was kicking around the Idea of toyota 4 runner with TRD supercharger and Total chaos long travel suspension kit http://www.chaosfab.com/tacomalong.html 4inches of lift and 13 inches of wheel travel twice the factory wheel travel.
Ideas ? Suggestions ?

I must admit that I am not a truck guy and have no idea about them beyond what they have in common with sports cars (engine/transmission)

Nathan_Bell
05-29-09, 13:32
To get back on the subject of BOV has anybody got any experiences with Toyota
http://www.trdusa.com/partscatalog.cfm?view=detail&subcategory=37&vehicle=4runner TRD superchargers I was kicking around the Idea of toyota 4 runner with TRD supercharger and Total chaos long travel suspension kit http://www.chaosfab.com/tacomalong.html 4inches of lift and 13 inches of wheel travel twice the factory wheel travel.
Ideas ? Suggestions ?

THe cores are gtg and Toyota give 3/36 warranty for dealer installed units, so I am guessing that the ancillary items are also good.

Unfamiliar with that lift kit though. Looks neat, my not very helpful comment

Thomas M-4
05-29-09, 13:33
I must admit that I am not a truck guy and have no idea about them beyond what they have in common with sports cars (engine/transmission)

I am learning as I go LOL I got a 03 f150 extcab 4.6 stock as a rock exept mobil1 full synthetic 5-20w and mobil1 oil filter and lineX bedliner woohoo !! I have been trolling on a few of those prerunner forums. Alot of them seem to keep the motor pretty much stock some boltons but rollcage seems to be very important for strengthening the ladder frame they use a little bit larger tubing than the racing guys and they tie the cage into the suspension mounts and they also tie into the frame and attach the body to the frame they recomend the rollcage to be the very first mod then suspension, tires ,gears most run 4.56
The toyotas are talked pretty highly of they got guys that replace the balljoints with HD ones and run the baja 1000 considering trading in the f150 for a tacoma or a 4runner.

Thomas M-4
05-29-09, 13:35
THe cores are gtg and Toyota give 3/36 warranty for dealer installed units, so I am guessing that the ancillary items are also good.

Unfamiliar with that lift kit though. Looks neat, my not very helpful comment

Thats what i thought I would rather have a dealer installed SC do you know if they would dealer install on a certified used toyota?

Nathan_Bell
05-29-09, 14:06
Thats what i thought I would rather have a dealer installed SC do you know if they would dealer install on a certified used toyota?

I would try TRD USA and ask them if that would qualify for coverage and what dealership in your area is gtg. Then do some homework on the dealerships.
We have two near me. The fancier looking one...well I wouldn't trust them with putting on a license plate. The other one is populated by a few real wrences, heck one of them drives an early '80s landcruiser ;)

Thomas M-4
05-29-09, 14:19
I would try TRD USA and ask them if that would qualify for coverage and what dealership in your area is gtg. Then do some homework on the dealerships.
We have two near me. The fancier looking one...well I wouldn't trust them with putting on a license plate. The other one is populated by a few real wrences, heck one of them drives an early '80s landcruiser ;)

Good advice thanks.

gyp_c2
05-30-09, 07:13
...IH Scout...
http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

Nathan_Bell
05-30-09, 07:56
...IH Scout...
http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

Perhaps for you folks out in the west. The salt and brine put on the roads around here long ago ate any non-collector grade Scouts.

Mr.Goodtimes
05-30-09, 11:06
im strongly considering a tacoma now. namely, because after speaking with my dad about what i wanted to do to my ranger, he said forget it, we dont have a place to do it.

i could pick up a stock tacoma which is already a really nice truck and then everything else i wanted to do to it could be done right in my garage. the supercharger sounds awesome, ive read about it before and it seems like a great add on for the engine.

plus, i could buy the truck, and do all the work i wanted to do to it, suspension, rollcage, lights, supercharger, tires, rims, etc... for about 30k.

im also going to consider a 4runner (older one) and mabey the new Tundra.

The_War_Wagon
05-30-09, 12:30
...IH Scout...
http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

A good Cornbinder is worth it's weight in AMMO! EMP-proof, too!

I'm restoring a Dodge Ramcharger myself. Yes, the old Bronco/Blazer/Ramchargers have their limitations, but they do have their perks as well - particularly the Ramchargers, since they have all metal bodies (I had a '79 Bronco once - crusin' town with the fibreglass top off WAS cool when I was in my early 20's - in my early 40's, the leakproof solid metal roof is much MORE appreciated!), and are much easier/comfier to sleep in, once you fold that flip rear bench forward. Under that seat is also a useful spot to store the truck long gun, too!

The leaf springs at all 4 corners of the Ramcharger are also quite pleasant to deal with, when it comes to suspension mods (nothing outrageous mind you - I don't want to be tooling around in BIGFOOT come Armageddon! :rolleyes:). And the longer wheelbase does give you the MOST storage of any of those bigger, older, 2 door 4x4's.

I also had Kennesaw Mountain Products build me a custom bumper with swing out gate, that mounts TO the bumper (and NOT the bodywork!) for a full-size spare, and move that spare out of the cargo area, freeing up a LOT more storage space!!! Yeah, it'll set you back several C-notes, but when it comes bug-out time, what would you rather leave BEHIND, instead? :eek:

WS6
05-30-09, 13:52
A good Cornbinder is worth it's weight in AMMO! EMP-proof, too!

I'm restoring a Dodge Ramcharger myself. Yes, the old Bronco/Blazer/Ramchargers have their limitations, but they do have their perks as well - particularly the Ramchargers, since they have all metal bodies (I had a '79 Bronco once - crusin' town with the fibreglass top off WAS cool when I was in my early 20's - in my early 40's, the leakproof solid metal roof is much MORE appreciated!), and are much easier/comfier to sleep in, once you fold that flip rear bench forward. Under that seat is also a useful spot to store the truck long gun, too!

The leaf springs at all 4 corners of the Ramcharger are also quite pleasant to deal with, when it comes to suspension mods (nothing outrageous mind you - I don't want to be tooling around in BIGFOOT come Armageddon! :rolleyes:). And the longer wheelbase does give you the MOST storage of any of those bigger, older, 2 door 4x4's.



I also had Kennesaw Mountain Products build me a custom bumper with swing out gate, that mounts TO the bumper (and NOT the bodywork!) for a full-size spare, and move that spare out of the cargo area, freeing up a LOT more storage space!!! Yeah, it'll set you back several C-notes, but when it comes bug-out time, what would you rather leave BEHIND, instead? :eek:


We had one of those with a 318 in it. Really neat vehicle. Dad gave it to his GF's grandson when he got out of prison. It got beat up and is now dead. I really think I would have liked to do some stuff to it. Damn. You bastard. Now I feel sad at a loss I had not realised until now. It was 2wd though. Still.

Thomas M-4
05-30-09, 19:31
im strongly considering a tacoma now. namely, because after speaking with my dad about what i wanted to do to my ranger, he said forget it, we dont have a place to do it.

i could pick up a stock tacoma which is already a really nice truck and then everything else i wanted to do to it could be done right in my garage. the supercharger sounds awesome, ive read about it before and it seems like a great add on for the engine.

plus, i could buy the truck, and do all the work i wanted to do to it, suspension, rollcage, lights, supercharger, tires, rims, etc... for about 30k.

im also going to consider a 4runner (older one) and mabey the new Tundra.

I don't have garage too. you can get the supercharger installed at the dealer at the time of purchase and have has dealer installed option. I would get a manual transmission for a Tacoma save you pennys for a year or 2 pick up the suspension system that you want .

tinman44
06-17-09, 03:47
I have a 4x4 4 runner 2007 model (it was actually a big deal to get 4x4 here in the south) anyways i will probably lift it a little once warranty runs out. my f150 will be replaced with a tacoma 4x4 and it will probably be lifted right away.