View Full Version : H&K LEM?
As Todd recommended, I would like to know more about H&K's LEM trigger. I honestly have not used it myself, only their traditional DA/SA. I've used Sig's DAK trigger which I greatly dislike. The length of pull was way too long and I prefer shorter resets.
Any information about the LEM would be greatly appreciated.
As Todd recommended, I would like to know more about H&K's LEM trigger. I honestly have not used it myself, only their traditional DA/SA. I've used Sig's DAK trigger which I greatly dislike. The length of pull was way too long and I prefer shorter resets.
Any information about the LEM would be greatly appreciated.
I used to have an HK45 with a light LEM trigger so I will try to help you out.
The LEM will still have a long trigger pull on the first shot. However, after the first one, you do not have to release the trigger all the way before you can fire again. You can feel a palatable click as you let the trigger out following the first shot. At that point, you are able to fire again from that position. In addition, the LEM modification will reduce the weight of the trigger pull depending on how you have it configured.
There are parts of the system that I liked and parts that I did not. I ended up selling the gun not too long ago as I just did not like the trigger pull, no matter how much I messed with it.
Others will probably have a more detailed explanation. Also, on HK-USA's web forums there is a thread which has a great depiction of what the LEM is all about. You can also check HKPRO as I saw similar threads there a while back.
Cheers,
sigmundsauer has a great deal of experience with the LEM compared to me, so hopefully he'll chime in.
HK LEM
The HK LEM is basically artifice. It uses a two-piece hammer, one part internal and one part external. When the slide is racked (loading the gun or during the firing cycle), the mainspring is compressed and kept in place as with any single action mechanism. However, the external part of the hammer moves fully forward and so does the trigger. In essence you have a cocked pistol that doesn't look cocked.
The first shot is long like a traditional double action pull, but it's not any heavier than subsequent trigger pulls. The reset is certainly longer than most striker-fired guns or a 1911, but it's only about a third of the total trigger travel arc. Three different configurations are available:
V1: nominal 4.5# trigger pull; uses standard trigger return spring and standard firing pin block spring ... this is essentially the standard P30 SA trigger pull from the DA/SA variant
V2: nominal 7.3# trigger pull; uses extra strength trigger return spring and extra strength firing pin block spring ... the one example I have measured 7# 10oz out of the box and has dropped to 7# 8oz after 1,000 rounds
V4: nominal 6.1# trigger pull; uses the extra strength trigger return spring but a standard firing pin block spring ... for reasons explained below, I believe this is probably the best option
The only one I'm even marginally familiar with is the V4. The extra strength trigger return spring plays a tremendous role in counteracting the long reset. Obviously, it's the speed at which you manipulate the trigger rather than simply the distance which determines how fast your next shot will discharge. While moving a longer distance would seem slower, the stronger trigger return spring literally slams the trigger to the reset point faster than you could move your finger alone. Will it be as fast for blind "for the fun of it" rapid fire? Probably not. But I was pulling .20 splits give or take a couple hundredths after just a few boxes of ammo.
The extra power firing pin block spring serves no purpose but to increase the trigger pull weight, so I'm planning on replacing mine with the lighter one to get about a 6# trigger pull, which I find is close to ideal for a practical gun.
SIG DAK
While my experience with the LEM is limited, my use of the DAK is extensive. In fact, I was the first person in the US (and probably in the world) to put one through its paces as a dedicated high-level training gun for many months when it was first imported. For quite a while, I probably had fired more rounds through a DAK than anyone outside a test range. I even wrote the lesson plan & taught SIG's first DAK transition class (for a large federal agency).
The SIG DAK is a genuine Double Action Only design and (prior to the SIG P250) had probably the lightest true DAO trigger pull on the market. Unlike the LEM, when the SIG DAK is at rest, the mainspring is not compressed any more than it would be in a decocked DA/SA SIG. The lighter trigger pull is achieved solely through changes to the trigger bar and some other internal parts which allow greater leverage.
When it was first released, the DAK had a nominal trigger pull of three kilos (6.6#). However, it never really quite worked out that way. For example, when we submitted the guns to DHS/ICE for testing in 2004, we called it a 7.2# trigger pull.
Because the size of the gun determines how long the trigger bar can be and thus how much leverage you can achieve, the P229 trigger was always a little heavier than the P226 by one quarter to one half a pound. The P239 DAK, being so short, has a trigger pull almost identical to the standard DA stroke for that gun. And the P220, which uses different internal dimensions, is about the same as the P229. Then, after a couple years on the market, it was determined that the DAK struggled with non-toxic primers. So a new spring, indicated by red paint, was introduced to provide a stronger primer strike. In my experience, the typical DAK trigger right now is around 7.5# +/- half a pound.
Then there is the reset. The DAK does not use a rebounding hammer like a standard (DA/SA) SIG. Therefore, it relies on the slide cycling to place the gun in what SIG calls the 'safety notch' or firing position. In order to provide restrike capability -- which SIG considers a worthwhile feature for a combat gun -- the DAK needed a way to cock the trigger when it was not in the safety notch position. The result is that, instead of being a simple "true" DAO with a full length reset, there is also an intermediate reset on a DAK. This intermediate reset, which does not benefit from the full leverage of the modified DAK mechanism, is about 2# heavier than the ordinary trigger pull. So you can either release the trigger all the way out (like a DA revolver) and get that same ~7.5# trigger pull, or you can reset it half way and get ~9.5# trigger pull on follow up shots.
In my experience, releasing the trigger all the way forward makes for much better results. In fact, I taught -- and convinced many people at SIG -- that the "intermediate" reset was really just there to save you if you short stroked the trigger ... while you should let the trigger all the way forward, the gun would protect you from yourself if you didn't. It sounded very tactical. But eventually people started to complain about how long the reset was and SIG changed course, instead saying that it was simply the shooter's choice as to which reset he should use. Last I knew, the SIG Academy taught folks to use the shorter intermediate reset.
Comparison
Both actions are very smooth and manageable from a marksmanship standpoint so long as you do not try to anticipate the shot (which can take some getting used to for Glock & 1911 shooters).
Because the trigger on the DAK & LEM will move all the way forward between shots if you let it, you never run the risk of losing contact with the trigger between shots. This means much less chance of slapping the trigger when shooting at maximum speed. So for example, while my splits were a little slower with the DAK than with a DA/SA SIG (especially using the Short Reset Trigger version), I was much less likely to throw a shot with the DAK.
The LEM wins for me because of the reset. I can use a "short" (relatively speaking) reset while keeping a true consistent trigger pull from shot to shot. Whereas the DAK is like shooting a DA revolver (not counting the intermediate reset), the LEM is much more like a 2-stage AR trigger ... a comparison I stole from sigmundsauer, truth be told. The LEM also has the option for the extra strength trigger return spring, which further enhances the reset and resultant speed.
Hope this helps ...
Very informative, thank you.
I'll have to go and try out a LEM for myself to see if I like it. If Todd likes it, then I probably will as well.
variablebinary
05-03-09, 07:48
I like the LEM a lot. They are hard to find on dealers shelves for some reason though.
The design is slick, the reset is reasonably short. Probably shorter than a standard P series SIG in single action mode.
I like the LEM a lot. It has a very clean break and if you're shooting from reset it is very easy to shoot fast with. My biggest complaint is the reset on the P2k, P2ksk, and P30 LEM is about 3x as long as the reset on the reset on the USP/USPc/HK45/HK45c LEM due to the trigger designs. Grayguns is now offering reduced reset options though on all of these and that may be something I'd look into if I was seriously considering a P2k or P30 in LEM.
sigmundsauer
05-03-09, 10:33
Todd's explanation is pretty comprehensive.
After using the LEM and SIG's DAK for a couple of years I have come to adore the LEM, particularly in the V4 configuration that Todd described, and have since sold my DAK SIGs. The V1 configuration using the light trigger return spring is too light in my opinion. In fact it is so light that I don't feel totally comfortable carrying it without a secondary manual safety, like on the cocked-and-locked HK45, etc. I have a USP C-T equipped in the light LEM configuration (V1), and I actually substituted the heavier firing pin block spring to provide an ever-so-slight increase in trigger weight to guard against ND.
It is true that the reset length on the P2000/P30 is longer than the .45 ACP variants, although I would not describe it as 3X the length. Regardless, like Todd said, I have found the trigger return spring to be more than adequate to reset the trigger and sear for lightning fast subsequent shots. In this respect, I find it manifold easier to use than SIG's DAK.
Additionally, I believe that the combination of a heavily bobbed hammer and reengineered mechanics of SIG's DAK to not be in favor of reliable ignition, the LEM is another animal. The LEM has one of the strongest ignition systems available on a stock gun. The fact that it comes with a light trigger stroke is just gravy. The LEM is allegedly equipped with a stronger-than-normal mainspring to counter the spring taking some degree of set, since it is intended to be carried precocked indefinitely. The advantage is a very strong strike on even the most stubborn of primers. In fact, of all of my pistols, my LEM P2000s have never balked on a single primer, whether they be NATO or MILSPEC-grade brass or non-toxic/leadless. If for some odd chance the stars are aligned against you and the initial strike doesn't light off a primer (which is most likely dead) the LEM does supply second-strike capability albeit without the slick, light trigger pull, but it can be managed in a pinch.
Perhaps most compelling for me personally, I find the LEM (particularly the V2 and V4 configurations) to be the most practical compromise between the inherent safety of DA trigger mechanism while still being very capable of fast and accurate fire more in line with single action mechanisms. The initial trigger slack is long, but I feel that it is comforting, if not totally necessary, on a relatively light trigger stroke. The length of the initial trigger stroke supplies excellent kinesthetic sense that helps the shooter know exactly where his trigger finger is in relationship to the sear and is one of the reasons that the LEM is inherently resistant to NDs compared to other shorter-stroke trigger systems. The additional trigger pressure required to trip the sear at the end of the trigger stroke is just further insurance against unintended discharge, but is not unnecessarily heavy so as to handicap marksmanship.
There are certainly other trigger systems that are easier to shoot fast, easier to shoot bullseye with, or more resistant to ND. I find the LEM to be optimal for a stock carry gun. My wife has also found the LEM to be the simplest and easiest pistol for her to shoot well. It is not encumbered by unnecessary safety devices and the trigger pull is always the same - light, long initial take-up, and relatively crisp on sear break. It requires no decocking, or "on-safing" prior to holstering, and possesses the additional safety advantage of an exposed hammer that your thumb can ride on top of as further protection against ND while the pistol is reholstered.
Tim
Todd and Sigmundsauer have nailed it. I got to shoot 500 rounds each from a P2000 .40 LEM with 155 grain and the from a P229 .357 Sig DAK side by side. Both are nice. I liked the grip and recoil control of the Sig more than the P2000. The trigger was a toss-up. I formerly was issued a Beretta 96D Brigadier. The Sig trigger was a major upgrade to the 96D trigger. Of the HK triggers, I liked the DA/SA better than the LEM.
I would like to try the V4 LEM to give it a chance.
The LEM trigger is good stuff, get your hands on one........it's a light pull with a short reset - plain and simple
Littlelebowski
05-03-09, 18:56
The LEM trigger is good stuff, get your hands on one........it's a light pull with a short reset - plain and simple
I shot Todd's today and the reset was not as short as my Glock 19's. Not my cup of tea but it works well.
I like the LEM a lot. They are hard to find on dealers shelves for some reason though.
They're extremely unpopular with the commercial market, as are most "DAO" style hammer fired guns. A lot of that is actually just a holdover among gun shop owners who had DAO Smith 3rd Gen, DAO Beretta, and DAO Ruger pistols languish for months or even years on their shelves.
In fact, truth be told, I'd originally indicated to HK that I wanted to use a DA/SA gun for the endurance test I'm running. But they said they were interested in promoting the LEM to the commercial market. Now that I've been shooting it for a couple of days, I'm very happy with that decision.
The design is slick, the reset is reasonably short. Probably shorter than a standard P series SIG in single action mode.
The reset is for the LEM is 0.25" as advertised by HK. I don't know what SIG's non-SRT DA/SA reset is off the top of my head, but I think it's a hair shorter than that.
Todd's explanation is pretty comprehensive.
That's because I stole so much of it from you. :cool:
If for some odd chance the stars are aligned against you and the initial strike doesn't light off a primer (which is most likely dead) the LEM does supply second-strike capability albeit without the slick, light trigger pull, but it can be managed in a pinch.
While that is possible I'm less than confident it would happen in real life under stress. In fact, I used to write something into every bid I submitted while at SIG pointing out that while some guns (cough cough, HK LEM) claimed re-strike capability from a mechanical standpoint, the substantially greater trigger pull length and weight of their "second strike" was so different than a normal trigger pull that most folks would more likely think the gun had malfunctions because the trigger wasn't working.
I haven't measured the "true DA" trigger pull weight on the LEM because I don't think my NRA weight set, maxed out, will trip the trigger.
My wife has also found the LEM to be the simplest and easiest pistol for her to shoot well.
Ironically, my wife -- an admitted light trigger prima donna -- dry fired my P30 LEM and commented how much she liked the trigger pull. And this is with a V2 (7.5#) trigger.
possesses the additional safety advantage of an exposed hammer that your thumb can ride on top of as further protection against ND while the pistol is reholstered.
I don't think that feature can be stressed enough. It's protection against the one in a thousand accident for most competent people, but even competent & safe gun handlers have accidents sometimes. Especially now that I'm carrying AIWB, the idea of a brain fade leading to an accident while holstering is always utmost in my mind. On the positive side, carrying a striker fired S&W M&P9 for months in an AIWB rig has forced me to re-evaluate my holstering technique and helped break the habit of the "lightning fast reholster" that so many people seem to develop over time.
Robb Jensen
05-03-09, 20:49
I find that people who can shoot 'combat style' handguns surgically well usually prefer DAO type triggers to include LEM, DAK, and striker fired guns.
Things that make you go hmmm.....
gtmtnbiker98
05-03-09, 21:05
This is one of the most comprehensive threads I have read on any forum, thanks Todd!!
This is one of the most comprehensive threads I have read on any forum, thanks Todd!!
Like I said, almost everything I wrote about the LEM I stole from a long email exchange with sigmundsauer when HK first approached me about possibly doing a P30 LEM test. The kudos belong to him ...
One thing that bugs me about the trigger on variant 1 HK's, at least as I've experienced on USP's, is that, in SA mode, after trigger reset, there is noticeable creep before the sear is engaged again. So it isn't really shooting to trigger reset, because as soon as the trigger resets you have to overcome that annoying creep before you can break the shot again. I think this issue impedes fast shootability.
Does the LEM trigger improve on this in any way?
Can't you send the gun back to HK and have them install the LEM for you? I was thinking I had read this somewhere. I have an HK 45C that I may want to have converted.
sigmundsauer
05-04-09, 13:08
One thing that bugs me about the trigger on variant 1 HK's, at least as I've experienced on USP's, is that, in SA mode, after trigger reset, there is noticeable creep before the sear is engaged again. So it isn't really shooting to trigger reset, because as soon as the trigger resets you have to overcome that annoying creep before you can break the shot again. I think this issue impedes fast shootability.
Does the LEM trigger improve on this in any way?
Do you mean "creep" or "trigger slack"? The HK's do have a lot of trigger slack prior to the sear. I find myself more able to deal with the trigger slack on the LEM variants vice the DA/SA variants. The DA/SA HK's are little more prone to trigger slapping in SA, imo. However, I wouldn't describe HK's sear release as a clean break (it is nothing like the proverbial glass rod analogy). It kind of rolls through, yet is very predictable and consistent. I wouldn't use "creep" to describe it per se, as creep has really balky, unpredictable connotations to me. It works, but it's not comparable to a 1911.
Because of its likeness to a two-stage single action trigger I have found it very easy to take up the trigger slack in a flash and break clean, accurate shots at speed. A couple of years ago I ran two IDPA classifiers back-to-back. First with my HK P2000 LEM in .40, followed by a SIG P229 DAK in .357 SIG. My overall scores were very similar, (incidentally I did not find shot-splits to be that much of a factor between both guns), but my accuracy on the 20-yard stage was considerably better with the LEM. This was no doubt a result of being able to press through the sear predictably versus the continuous sweep that is required on the true-DAO of the DAK. I can shoot a DAK very well slow fire and against moving targets, but my all-around accuracy is noticeably better with the LEM, shot-splits are much better in my hands on very close targets with the LEM, too.
Tim
So it isn't really shooting to trigger reset, because as soon as the trigger resets you have to overcome that annoying creep before you can break the shot again. I think this issue impedes fast shootability.
Yes, that is present in the LEM as well. Remember, the LEM is essentially an SA-only version of the HK except that the trigger and hammer move all the way forward if you release pressure on the trigger.
Two different mechanisms have to reset. First is the sear, which is what you're used to with a 1911 for example. Second is the firing pin block. It activates when the trigger is pulled but then disengages when the gun fires. So the trigger bar has to move far enough forward again to re-engage the firing pin block. (as an aside, that's the magic of the SIG "Short Reset Trigger" ... it uses an extended safety lever to keep the firing pin block engaged during the entire slide cycle, so you only have to reset the sear for the next trigger pull)
As for whether it impacts the speed at which you can shoot, that depends a lot on your skill level and what you're trying to accomplish. If you're standing still in a good strong stance and shooting a full size static target at close range under little or no stress then yes a short reset is one factor in your speed. And from that standpoint, no I don't think maximum human performance with the LEM will be as fast as with a gun with shorter reset.
well that covers it, I can dig it, thanks for the great responses guys..and yeah I guess "slack" or "travel" back to sear re-engagement post reset better describes it than "creep".
varoadking
05-09-09, 07:18
Light LEM is a terrific system...though I'm not much on the V2 LEM...
Light LEM is a terrific system...though I'm not much on the V2 LEM...
I have not shot the light LEM. However, since it uses the same trigger return spring as the DA/SA variants, I have to assume the trigger reset force leaves a bit to be desired. One of these days I should be receiving the replacement firing pin block spring to switch mine from a 7.5# V2 to a 6# V4. But I'm not altogether upset with the V2 as it is now.
varoadking
05-10-09, 16:52
I have not shot the light LEM. However, since it uses the same trigger return spring as the DA/SA variants, I have to assume the trigger reset force leaves a bit to be desired. One of these days I should be receiving the replacement firing pin block spring to switch mine from a 7.5# V2 to a 6# V4. But I'm not altogether upset with the V2 as it is now.
The spring does not force you to the reset as you have correctly assumed, but the reset is so very short - well short of the V2 LEM - that it's a non-issue for me...
The spring does not force you to the reset as you have correctly assumed, but the reset is so very short - well short of the V2 LEM - that it's a non-issue for me...
You're saying the "light" version (which is V1, I believe) has a shorter reset? I thought it was achieved simply by changing the trigger return and firing pin block springs.
sigmundsauer
05-10-09, 19:45
Regardless of spring configuration, the reset point on the P2000/P30s do not change. The HK45 and USP .45 Compact that I have pawed all had shorter resets than my P2000/P30. My USP Compact-Tactical in particular was factory-equipped with the light LEM and, as Varoadking states, the light trigger return spring isn't so much a handicap on account of the shorter reset.
Varoadking, which pistol are you referring to with the light LEM?
Tim
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