View Full Version : The STG556: Part Duex
Since the original threat has been closed due to a discussion that most twelve year olds would shake their heads at and say "grow up", I thought I could start anew and maybe get some positive feedback or at least a more healthy debate... :cool:
I have already posted my opinions and reasoning as to why I chose this particular rifle system for patrol (see Review of STG556). I would like to see in there are any others out there who have made the same choice as I have. Personally I am glad to see companies like MSAR step in and produce a product that other companies haven't cloned 1000 times. I am glad to hear others may be producing "politically incorrect" rifles soon. I was so glad when the AWB sunset and am also glad that congress realizes another ban would just not work like the first one, but that is a discussion for another thread. So please, let me know about your "evil black rifles".:p
Littlelebowski
05-03-09, 18:55
I dig the MSAR because of the low recoil and the way it handles. What I'm wondering is if it's really worth it to wait for the AR mag variant. Are the factory Steyr pattern mags pretty good?
I dig the MSAR because of the low recoil and the way it handles. What I'm wondering is if it's really worth it to wait for the AR mag variant. Are the factory Steyr pattern mags pretty good?
I suppose it depends on how much of an investment you want to make. The E4 is a good idea if you own a lot of AR mags and don't want to spend another $300.00 on mags only designed for the STG556 (although I like the E3 because it can take both STG mags and AUG mags). All my STG mags (30's and 42's) are reliable and just as rugged as the AUG mags are. Another advantage is the amber colored STG mags (and AUG mags) are clear enough to see ALL the rounds in the magazine. PMAG's are excellent and have a window to see the rounds too but you still need to guess on a partially full one. I have heard the E4's are going to be cheaper but then some have said it will be more expensive. For me, the bottom line is I already own an excellent STG and don't need one that accepts AR mags since I have plenty of AR's in my safe. I may get the stock at a later date.
I have been leaning very strongly toward an AUG variant of some kind for the past few months, especially the upcoming Sabre Defense licensed production.
The only thing holding me back is the inability to operate the weapon effectively from the opposite shoulder.
I've been wanting an AUG/STG-77 for ages, and now I have the chance at the STG556, TPD AXR or new Steyr. I've been trying to follow the relevant postings on the STG review but have some questions: how do you tell the twist rate on the barrel if the dealer won't let me disassemble it (used gun in this case), can a NATO stockt be safely modified to fit the MSAR, what was the standard sales 'package' for the MSARs as far as magazines, accessories etc? I'm looking to buy a used one here and want to make sure the dealer isn't boning me on the mags and acc's. As for the twist, I read some posts say 1/9 and some say 1/8 for the 20" barrels. Does anyone have complaints about either twist with 55-67gr bullets on this rifle? Any preferences on ammo brands? Thanks and I'll shut up now
threeheadeddog
05-03-09, 21:12
The no shooting from the off shoulder is something I have given VERY much thought to. This is also why I have decided to wait on the E4 and will be buying on when funds permit to experiment with.
I say this because if you use a more squared up stance the aug ejection port can be mostly avoided when shooting off shoulder. The E4 pics I have seen had a rail extending back along the side of the rifle to just infront of the port. I have machinist friends and will have a "cover/deflector/ejection chute" made that extends back over the port to help keep spent casings from hitting me.
If anyone has any insight as to why this wouldnt work for me please chime in because I am going to do this. Also if anyone from msar would be willing to make something similar and test it I would be interested in the results ;);)
I have always liked AUGs and have some FA ones. My liking them is irrational though, because they cannot really compare to an M4. The mag changes are slow and the trigger is crap. Yes, it is nice to get a 20 inch barrel with a shorter OAL than a 16 inch AR. That is why I like owning some but cannot say I would dedicate it as the rifle I use.
I've been wanting an AUG/STG-77 for ages, and now I have the chance at the STG556, TPD AXR or new Steyr. I've been trying to follow the relevant postings on the STG review but have some questions: how do you tell the twist rate on the barrel if the dealer won't let me disassemble it (used gun in this case), can a NATO stockt be safely modified to fit the MSAR, what was the standard sales 'package' for the MSARs as far as magazines, accessories etc? I'm looking to buy a used one here and want to make sure the dealer isn't boning me on the mags and acc's. As for the twist, I read some posts say 1/9 and some say 1/8 for the 20" barrels. Does anyone have complaints about either twist with 55-67gr bullets on this rifle? Any preferences on ammo brands? Thanks and I'll shut up now
With the STG you get 1/9 twist in their 20 inch barrels, 1/8 twist in the 16 inch barrels and 1/7 twist in the 14 inch barrels (removing the barrel with show you the twist which is stamped on the barrel. A standard STG new retails for around $1800.00 and comes with 1 ten round magazine. Extra mags (30 and 42 are ones I have purchases) go for around $36.00 each. MSAR still has several special order STG556 that come with a hard case, sling, 4 magazines, knife and customed serial numbered rifle for $2400.00. My rifle tends to like lighter loads in the accuracy department but has been 100% reliable with all bands (and reloads).
I've been thinking about finding a 20" in 6.8.
The E4's seem to be more expensive, but thats only based on looking at the MSAR page from ableammo. I am still curious as to the exact definition of the models, I understand everything except for the first 4 numbers.
The E4 drops forward bolt assist, which is a benefit on the E3. I'm not sure why this was done.
I've been thinking about finding a 20" in 6.8.
The E4's seem to be more expensive, but thats only based on looking at the MSAR page from ableammo. I am still curious as to the exact definition of the models, I understand everything except for the first 4 numbers.
The E4 drops forward bolt assist, which is a benefit on the E3. I'm not sure why this was done.
MSAR dropped to forward assist because of overwelming feedback from customers's who wanted the look of the AUG. It also seemed an unessecary option because the charging handle can serve as the forward assist since the STG556 uses and bolt release in the stock, thereby eliminating the need for the charging handle to do double duty. Mine is a Gen II so the forward assist is there. For me, it does not seem to get in the way or take away from the cosmetics of the rifle. To my understanding, there were 4 Generation models and the E4 (Gen III and IV removed the forward assist and allow for AUG mag use).
That makes sense, I hadn't thought about it that way. I'm still trying to discern the model number designations.
For the Gebirgsjager special edition,
2003ODLTDRH16
OD green, Limited, Right Hand 16" barrel
My Tan 16" Rail
2003RRH16C
Rail, Right Hand, 16" barrel, compensator
The E4 models first four digits are listed as 2501 and 2503.
I think the 4th digit is whether it has a side rail, but I'm not sure on that.
Littlelebowski
05-04-09, 07:29
The 2 MSARs I shot had triggers that were fine in my book. Sure they weren't the proverbial "breaking glass rod" but they were fine and the guns were accurate. I have ARs, now I want a little variety. Don't see the need for a crisp, light trigger in a carbine either.
That is true on the trigger. I sighted my rifle in a 100yds because of the choice of an optic (Elcan Spectre DR manual states to zero at 100 yds). From the bench attempting to score the tightest groups possible the trigger is noticable. But offhand on the range during our department qualification, I did not notice the trigger as much. This is just something designed in the system of the rifle and not much can be done (although I have heard mixed reviews on the Trigger Tamer and even heard mention of a smith that work's AUG triggers).
Littlelebowski
05-04-09, 09:16
I've seen reports of the trigger getting drastically better due to dry lube and polishing of the parts. To me, it's sort of like a 1911 versus Glock trigger thing - yeah, you can shoot some pretty groups with the crisp light trigger but once you get off of the bench, the difference is no longer so apparent.
Ok, so sighting in at 100yds (don't laugh too much) but is there ANY difference in groups when you change the fore-grip from vertical to horizontal? I would imagine that the minor pressure from changing the grip (pulling forward or downward) might have an equally minor impact on the barrel and wouldn't be noticable, however, given tolerances and barrel length stiffness (16" showing less flex) does anyone notice a change? Does the grip position change any pressure points within the reciever or stock? Also, gas adjustments: is there a preference for your geo-area? I mean; does one person have a setting at 'sea' level, one adjust to desert areas, one to high mountain altitude? Like I said, silly questions. Figured I'd ask before I go out and bust my bank in tomorrows purchase. ..ooh..and anyone want to trade a black stock (my future MSAR) for green/tan (my preference), or have painting suggestions?
Ok, so sighting in at 100yds (don't laugh too much) but is there ANY difference in groups when you change the fore-grip from vertical to horizontal? I would imagine that the minor pressure from changing the grip (pulling forward or downward) might have an equally minor impact on the barrel and wouldn't be noticable, however, given tolerances and barrel length stiffness (16" showing less flex) does anyone notice a change? Does the grip position change any pressure points within the reciever or stock? Also, gas adjustments: is there a preference for your geo-area? I mean; does one person have a setting at 'sea' level, one adjust to desert areas, one to high mountain altitude? Like I said, silly questions. Figured I'd ask before I go out and bust my bank in tomorrows purchase. ..ooh..and anyone want to trade a black stock (my future MSAR) for green/tan (my preference), or have painting suggestions?
When zeroing the rifle, you should bench it on a hard level surface and brace the rifle, preferably with bags or some other device to keep the rifle as still as possible. In this position the foregrip should be horizontal. STG barrels are free floated so "flexing" is almost non-existant, although the foregrip is attached to the barrel so it may effect a point of impact as you fire when gripping it. The gas system is adjustable and has two settings; high and low. Unless you plan on climbing Mt. Everest to shoot the rifle or you live in extreme cold (like me) you should not have to mess with the gas system. Up here in the winter I have adjusted it when it reached -50 F because the gas pressures were noticably lower.
I would like to see some sort of evaluation/competition between the Styer/Sabre AUG, MSAR STG556, and the AXR.
I really want to buy an AUG, but I would like to buy the better of them to begin with.
Littlelebowski
05-05-09, 05:38
Good luck getting all of those rifles into the same room. I called and emailed TPDUSA trying to buy an AXR and gave up. MSAR is the only company actually producing rifles you can find.
Good luck getting all of those rifles into the same room. I called and emailed TPDUSA trying to buy an AXR and gave up. MSAR is the only company actually producing rifles you can find.
I emailed TPD last Nov/Dec. about getting the parts for a left-handed AXR. I was told they were 2 weeks out. Never heard back.
The TPD guy was posting on this site for a while and said he would give us an update...which never happened.
My guess would be, smaller companies are suffering for barrel shortages.
Sabre AUG's were on GB for a while, but the prices were insane.
I would like to see some sort of evaluation/competition between the Styer/Sabre AUG, MSAR STG556, and the AXR.
I really want to buy an AUG, but I would like to buy the better of them to begin with.
Dont know about the AXR but on AR15.com someone has bought an A3 and an STG and put his review of them (firedog55). His basic conclusion appears to say both are roughly the same in construction, reliablity and accuracy. Once MSAR begins to ship the E4 I think the AXR will go away.
Littlelebowski
05-05-09, 06:23
Same here sort of, Dave L. I PMed the AXR guy, posted on here in his thread, finally heard back from him, he instructed me to call him and I did. Then he verbally told me to email him my order and I did. Never heard back from him so I ended up buying my 5.45 S&W M&P15R and about 10K rds of ammo. Very happy with that purchase but I am feeling the need for an AUG after shooting 2 different MSARs.
Same here sort of, Dave L. I PMed the AXR guy, posted on here in his thread, finally heard back from him, he instructed me to call him and I did. Then he verbally told me to email him my order and I did. Never heard back from him so I ended up buying my 5.45 S&W M&P15R and about 10K rds of ammo. Very happy with that purchase but I am feeling the need for an AUG after shooting 2 different MSARs.
If the E4's come out (for a lefty) I may pick one up. The more "vehicle mounted" work I do, the more I like the idea of a bullpup rifle.
When zeroing the rifle, you should bench it on a hard level surface and brace the rifle, preferably with bags or some other device to keep the rifle as still as possible.
Just my opinion, but this isn't how I would zero. Or, this isn't the entire way I would zero. If you're going to be shooting in this way all the time, then this is how I'd zero. However, if you're not going to be shooting this way all the time, I'd double-check and tweak the zero from a prone position without rest before I called it done. For me, with the AR, I always go through the motions of getting on paper and relatively dialed in from a sandbag on an ammo can and from a bench, but I don't consider the rifle truly zeroed until I get down in prone and use the mag-as-monopod position that I'd find myself shooting in at distance should I need to. It can absolutely make a difference.
Just my opinion, but this isn't how I would zero. Or, this isn't the entire way I would zero. If you're going to be shooting in this way all the time, then this is how I'd zero. However, if you're not going to be shooting this way all the time, I'd double-check and tweak the zero from a prone position without rest before I called it done. For me, with the AR, I always go through the motions of getting on paper and relatively dialed in from a sandbag on an ammo can and from a bench, but I don't consider the rifle truly zeroed until I get down in prone and use the mag-as-monopod position that I'd find myself shooting in at distance should I need to. It can absolutely make a difference.
For me, the purpose of zeroing the rifle is to check the quality of the rifles accuracy. Isolating the rifle and minimizing outside influences is the best way to see the MOA it can do. I consider what you do to be "off hand" because human and enviormental factors may affect where it will hit. Going prone, and monopoding the rifle will improve the accuracy as you fire but will still not tell you just how accurate your rifle is inherently.
I guess our goals are different then. I zero the rifle so that it hits where I aim it when I shoot it away from the bench, since the only time I would shoot from a bench is to begin the zero process.
Littlelebowski
05-05-09, 08:26
I think rob has a point. A lot of things can effect accuracy including shooting from a magazine rest. If you need to adjust it for your individual shooting style after it's zeroed from a bench, that's what you need to do. A bench zero isn't always absolute.
Sorry for that hijack, BTW.
We have two of our match shooters that run Augs. One is an original with a magwell that takes AR mags, the other is, I believe, an MSAR. the MSAR had issues early on but I think those may have been due to some trigger device the shooter had installed. The Steyr version has run well for the most part but had issues with Lancer mags for whatever reason.
From what I've seen of these two shooters, as well as the few other Aug-pattern guns I've seen at matches and classes over the years, most choose them based on an anachronistic need that they have rationalized via "20" barrel in a 16" package" logic. I guess it applies somewhat, but I think that the benefit is very case-specific and the ergonomic tradeoffs outweigh this perceived benefit. It implies a need for a compact package AND the longer range terminal effects of the longer barrel, which seem to be contradictory in most cases. I could see a contractor in Afghanistan needing to deploy from a vehicle to engage a distant threat, but otherwise if you're in tight quarters your target is likely to be well within your effective range with even a 10.5" AR.
As to the inability to shoot support-side with the Aug, personally I find myself less concerned with that. Support-side shooting goes in and out of vogue, and these days it seems to be in, but for most users this is really a 1/10% issue at best.
This type of rifle system is not for everyone and like all of them, not perfect. In a competition setting the need for a "compact" package is not a critical and the trigger may become a hinderence especially past 300 yards vs. a good AR system. As I have stated in the past, with an overall length of 26" I can drive with it slung, enter clear small homes and trailers and not have to sacrific ballistic energy in the process. In a few weeks I am going to use this rifle in a 3 gun competition to see how I can fare against my AR brothren. Ironically the last 3 gun match the top two rifle shooters were using a A1 AUG and a STG w/standard optic (of course the engagements were maxed out at 200 yards).
As a side note, I love the looks I get from other LEO's when they see me with the STG at work.
I don't know if this has been addressed but a range buddy of mine has the STG 556 and his suffers case stuck in the chamber with Wolf. They may have 223 chambers.
Littlelebowski
05-06-09, 07:33
Looking forward to hearing the MSAR rep's input on the chamber.
The STG-556 has a 5.56 NATO chamber. The use of Wolf ammunition isn't recommended. My advice if you insist on using Wolf is to first have the rifle well broken in with good brass cased ammunition, and make sure you clean out the chamber very well after each use to remove excessive fouling.
I have personal experience w/4 STG's. One had problems which MSAR promptly fixed. They've been 100% reliable w/Prvi Partizan M193 and reliable enough w/Brown Bear & Silver Bear to use as practice ammo (reliability has improved greatly w/use as the rifles wear-in and setting the gas regulator to "adverse" helps a great deal when using underpowered ammo like the Brown Bear).
Even w/the typical bullpup trigger I can easily hit the 200m gong offhand using Silver Bear 62gr and the 300m gong is doable if I do my part.
Yes, I like the very short OAL (great for manuevering in close quarters) w/o giving up ballistics, going SBR or having to suffer excessive muzzle flash & muzzle blast. I also find the bullpup configuration reduces shooter fatigue since most of the weight is kept close-in to the body.
Ergonomics? With practice I find mag changes to be acceptably fast (not that I'm worried, if I can't handle a HD situation w/42rds of 75gr TAP then I doubt another mag will do me much good...;)) although someone who runs competitions may feel the need for speed. Handling is very good for me (YMMV), faster than any other rifle I've tried (although the PS90 is close but I hesitate to consider it a rifle).
It's not for everyone and it does have its drawbacks (like the short optics rail which makes including BUIS problematic) but it suits my particular needs better than any other currently available rifle.
Tomac
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/Re-exposureofResizeofNewTaclight-1.jpg
All the 'hmm'ning and 'haw'ing done, I broke down (and now just broke) and adopted a 20" black, GenII (?). No optics, 4 mags: 10, 20, 20, 42). Manual and lock. SN# between 1100-1300, near pristine and pretty. Sometime this weekend, I'll fiddle with my AUG parts and see what the main differences are. I won't swap for live fire tests, just measure and take notes. I will, however, be looking very closely at the NATO stock differences. Side question: does anyone have experience with the Steyr A3 with the full length railed handguard? I'm interested on the rigidity of the extension, how it's mounted (other than top rail), possibility of anyone importing or making the extension. This one: http://www.wmasg.pl/fotki/zbrojownia/179/AUG_A3_7.jpg
Alaskapopo
05-07-09, 03:49
I've seen reports of the trigger getting drastically better due to dry lube and polishing of the parts. To me, it's sort of like a 1911 versus Glock trigger thing - yeah, you can shoot some pretty groups with the crisp light trigger but once you get off of the bench, the difference is no longer so apparent.
Actually the opposite is true. Off the bench even a mediocure shooter can do good with with a crap trigger because the rifle is stable and its not going anywhere. Where a good trigger pays off is in off hand shooting at longer ranges. Such as in three gun at 6 inch plates at 200 yards. The heavier triggers make more effort and skill not to pull off target during off hand shooting. Bull pup triggers suck no way around that. A good Aug trigger is about as good as the worst AR trigger you could expect to see.
Pat
Alaskapopo
05-07-09, 03:51
As a side note, I love the looks I get from other LEO's when they see me with the STG at work.
That is the real reason you like this gun. Its a fashion statement. I have no problem letting you carry it as long as you can qualify with it however. If carrying a different rifle gives you more confidence that is a good thing.
Pat
Alaskapopo
05-07-09, 03:53
This type of rifle system is not for everyone and like all of them, not perfect. In a competition setting the need for a "compact" package is not a critical and the trigger may become a hinderence especially past 300 yards vs. a good AR system. As I have stated in the past, with an overall length of 26" I can drive with it slung, enter clear small homes and trailers and not have to sacrific ballistic energy in the process. In a few weeks I am going to use this rifle in a 3 gun competition to see how I can fare against my AR brothren. Ironically the last 3 gun match the top two rifle shooters were using a A1 AUG and a STG w/standard optic (of course the engagements were maxed out at 200 yards).
As a side note, I love the looks I get from other LEO's when they see me with the STG at work.
Actually both had Augs. Both are master class shooters. The rest of us were expert level shooters and below in IDPA anyway. I am going to have another 3 gun match on the 17th and again on June 7th. We will see how the STG fares then.
Pat
Alaskapopo
05-07-09, 04:00
I guess our goals are different then. I zero the rifle so that it hits where I aim it when I shoot it away from the bench, since the only time I would shoot from a bench is to begin the zero process.
I believe you should zero from the bench. That is where the rifle wants to default to. Yes various positions can affect your zero (not an issue with a good free floated AR) but its rather pointless to chase your 0 around in different shooting positions.
Pat
Littlelebowski
05-07-09, 04:18
Actually the opposite is true. Off the bench even a mediocure shooter can do good with with a crap trigger because the rifle is stable and its not going anywhere. Where a good trigger pays off is in off hand shooting at longer ranges. Such as in three gun at 6 inch plates at 200 yards. The heavier triggers make more effort and skill not to pull off target during off hand shooting. Bull pup triggers suck no way around that. A good Aug trigger is about as good as the worst AR trigger you could expect to see.
Pat
If you don't see my point (it regards Glock versus 1911 triggers), I can't help you. There's plenty of people that can shoot just fine without a perfect, crisp trigger. I've done a little shooting in my time too.
Alaskapopo
05-07-09, 04:26
If you don't see my point (it regards Glock versus 1911 triggers), I can't help you. There's plenty of people that can shoot just fine without a perfect, crisp trigger. I've done a little shooting in my time too.
If you can't understand my post then I can't help you. Its very basic marksmanship. A heavy trigger makes shooting more difficult. Also it depends on what your definition of" shoot just fine is." If your talking shooting groups with all the time in the world sure, or hitting huge card board targets at 2 yards, then you are right a horrible trigger is not that much of a handicap. However if you are talking shooting faster and more accurately under stress then a better trigger will help you perform better. That is the main reason the 1911 is still the king of the combat handgun world. That is why more pro's still prefer it over Glocks. Don't get me wrong I like Glocks (in 9mm) but given the choice I will take my custom 1911's over them any day of the week. Winning gun fights is about shot placement under extreme stress. I am sure you have done some shooting in your day. This thread is not going to turn into a penis measuring contest. The simple fact is a better trigger will help you shoot faster and more accurately. That is very important in real life and competition.
The Augs trigger is a handicap. One thing my friend Alaska cop did not mention was his first qualification with the STG556 was barely above passing. He had to work with the rifle to get it to where he is today. With his M4 the qualification was normally a breeze for him. (as it should be its fairly easy) I am not buying the less recoil argument either. I have fired his STG556 from the bench and I did not notice less recoil, but it may have been because I was having to concentrate on fighting the trigger.
The STG556 is a perfectly serviceable rifle. However when compared to an AR it comes up wanting. The only advantage it has is a more compact overall length with better ballistics and of course it has the CDI factor. (Chicks Dig It)
Pat
Jay Cunningham
05-07-09, 04:45
This thread is not going to turn into a penis measuring contest.
You are most certainly right about that.
Alaskapopo
05-07-09, 04:46
The STG-556 has a 5.56 NATO chamber. The use of Wolf ammunition isn't recommended. My advice if you insist on using Wolf is to first have the rifle well broken in with good brass cased ammunition, and make sure you clean out the chamber very well after each use to remove excessive fouling.
I agree with you here. I only shoot Wolf in my AK's and SKS's. I won't shoot the stuff in my AR's or any other quality firearm.
Pat
If you can't shoot well enough from prone without any support besides what came from the factory and God, no amount of wonder trigger is going to help you.
I've taken two carbine classes with Randy Cain; one with an AR and one an AK-specific class. In both we shot for zero at 25, 50, then 200, all from prone. There were shooters that were more than capable of matching the mechanical accuracy of the rifle/ammo they were shooting.
The lesson of shooting for zero from a bench was also very evident at these matches in watching guys that swore their rifles were zeroed turn out to NOT be zeroed because they had zeroed off a concrete bench with a bipod.
Zeroing a gun for the least critical situation, and for the situation that you should be doing virtually no shooting from, makes zero sense.
However if you are talking shooting faster and more accurately under stress then a better trigger will help you perform better.
If you are talking shooting faster and more accurately in any kind of practical sense, then within reason the trigger plays only a minor role. If someone can hit a target at 200yd easily with a 3# trigger but struggles (or fails) with an 8# trigger, that's much more a statement about his skill level than his trigger.
One of the best shooters I know, and my former training partner for years, learned how to shoot with a NY2-triggered Glock. That forced him to learn everything the right way rather than using a super-light, perfectly crisp trigger as a crutch.
That is the main reason the 1911 is still the king of the combat handgun world. That is why more pro's still prefer it over Glocks.
In Alaska, maybe. Many of the most "famous" 1911 carrying mil/LE units have dropped them over the past few years in favor of, ironically, the Glock. This has been discussed and verified more than once on this forum by folks intimately familiar with such organizations.
Jay Cunningham
05-07-09, 06:16
Once again, a thread about the STG556 has drifted off-topic into a thread about trigger control and trigger characteristics, bench vs. prone zeroing and Glocks and 1911's... everything but the STG556.
Once again I suggest starting new threads in appropriate forums for these discussions - if you can keep it germane to the STG556 or other bullpup assault rifles, then have at it.
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