DNTC Agressive Comp On Tactical Carbine?

[Mr.Goodtimes]

Im lookin to get some more recoil reduction out of my m4. Its first and foremost use is as a home defense gun. Ive gotten to where i can squeeze of some pretty fast and accurate follow up shots (strings of 2 to 3 rds).

I would like to be able to pick the pace up though, as i can see where, in a defensive situation, the more rounds i can get out accurately, the better. After watching the magpul videos, it looks like chris costas gun with an NT4 muzzle break seems to no muzzle climb and very very little recoil at all.

While i would really like to get an NT4 break like Mr. Costa has, those seem to be made of unobtanium, so im thinkin of settling for a DNTC.

My big question is though, will the flash from this device be enough to blind me/obscure my sight picture in a dark house at night?

Would i be better off going with something like the FSC series?

Does the FSC series offer the same ammount of recoil reduction as the DNTC or is there a bit of a trade off?

Cheers,

Ryan

[Robb Jensen]

Im lookin to get some more recoil reduction out of my m4. Its first and foremost use is as a home defense gun. Ive gotten to where i can squeeze of some pretty fast and accurate follow up shots (strings of 2 to 3 rds).

I would like to be able to pick the pace up though, as i can see where, in a defensive situation, the more rounds i can get out accurately, the better. After watching the magpul videos, it looks like chris costas gun with an NT4 muzzle break seems to no muzzle climb and very very little recoil at all.

While i would really like to get an NT4 break like Mr. Costa has, those seem to be made of unobtanium, so im thinkin of settling for a DNTC.

My big question is though, will the flash from this device be enough to blind me/obscure my sight picture in a dark house at night?

Would i be better off going with something like the FSC series?

Does the FSC series offer the same ammount of recoil reduction as the DNTC or is there a bit of a trade off?

Cheers,

Ryan


The DNTC and the FSC556 comp the same, the FSC556 has virtually zero flash where the DNTC sometimes increases the flash.

Here's a pic of me shooting Guatamalan ammo through a 16" barrel with a DNTC.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/3gunAR2.jpg


2nd one is same setup but with XM193.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/3gunAR5.jpg

[Mr.Goodtimes]

WOW!!!:eek: That Guatamalan stuff makes a huge flash!

Im assuming that since you used the same break for both rounds, the guatamalan stuff does not use a flash supressed powder, where as the m193 does?

It would seem that, the FSC series may be the way to go if they both have the same recoil reducing abilities.

[ballistic]

Winchester Q131A out of my DNTC Aggressive comp. 16" Midlength barrel. I haven't shot it at night/low light yet so I can't comment on any effects that would have on night vision. While the flash was obviously captured in this photo and other shooters on the line commented they could occasionally see a ball of flame, I never saw it from behind the gun.


http://lh5.ggpht.com/_rZ_8bLTNFN8/SgMbk_UGyhI/AAAAAAAAAvI/TLCduJjwd0M/s800/DNTC%20Flash.jpg

[Mr.Goodtimes]

i really like the looks of the agressive comp, and it looks like it could do some serious damage in the case your weapon goes "click" and not "bang"

[Magsz]

A better question would be, do you want to run a rifle in the confines of your house?

Use a pistol...

Having given my opinion that was not asked for i will comment on the original question. Ive run an FSC556 brake at night and i had no issues being blinded or having my vision obscured. I will however say that the people shooting next to me were commenting on how there were sparks shooting everywhere out of the barrel of my gun. No fireballs, just sparks.

Ive also shot a DNTC comp at night with no flashlight and it was less than ideal. I did find the ball of fire that erupted from the end of my barrel a bit distracting and it would wash out my T1's red dot. I wouldnt really recommend one for serious home defense use since if you cant see, recoil reduction matters not for follow up shots.

[Mr.Goodtimes]

thanks magz. i would prefer the use of the rifle as, my house is pretty big and its not hard to move around with the carbine at all. Also, my beretta doesn't have a light mounted on it, my AR does.

[Mr.Goodtimes]

would the FSC 556 along with an H2 buffer produce negligible recoil? also, would the H2 be safe to use in a 16in barrel with carbine length gas system? it seems to work for some and not for others.

[Charles]

Go with the FSC. On an M4 the dot won't come out of the head at 50yds.

Having said that- what is your current skill level? Do you know what your times for clean runs on the 2+2+2 and D-drill are?

[Mr.Goodtimes]

Im not really sure what those drills are to tbh.

What i typically do at the range is practice giving each target two shots to the chest and one to the head, or all three to the chest. sometimes three to the chest, one to the head. i practice this on a human silhouette at 25m.

The other thing i like to do is shoot at a target at 25 yards that has 5 four inch circles on it. I practice putting three shots down range as fast as i can into each four inch circle. I have no problems keeping all the rounds within each cicle, putting all three down range in about 1.5 seconds ( i havent actually timed anything but id say this is about right, it feels pretty quick).

Im not to concerned about my skill level... these modifications would be to enhance my skill... not replace. Ive been shooting my AR for about half a year now... prior to the AR i grew up shooting other firearms, mainly an m1 carbine.

[Iraq Ninja]

Ryan,

There are plenty of people who can shoot fast and accurately with a standard bird cage. It is not Costa's equipment, but rather his technique and skill that allows him to shoot as if there is little rise.

So, what I am saying is that it is a training and experience issue, not a hardware issue.

As for its design doing serious damage if you have to muzzle punch someone, the last thing you want is something that can hook on something or get caught up. I have had to muzzle punch more than a few folks and the bird cage does a great job. You just have to put your shoulder into it, the same was Costa is showing for shooting and hit em... :)

[Mr.Goodtimes]

Thanks iraq ninja! i wasnt trying to make it sound like it was all costas equipment, as i know its mostly his skill, i figured it was a little bit of a combination of both. I recon ill just hang on to the birdcage break i have now, save my self some money in the meantime and just keep practicing with that. ill probably just wait till i get the money for an m41000 to change breaks.

On the topic of technique, do you have any advice more advice on things i can do to control my muzzle better? Ive noticed that, like you said, driving your shoulder helps, and i also lean into the gun a little bit as well. is there anything else that could help?

I also just picked up a vertical grip, can that help with muzzle control as well?

As for muzzle strikes... im lookin at my gun right now and thinkin that A2 might hurt pretty bad... ill certainly take your word for it :D

[Iraq Ninja]

What really helps me, is basically the same thing Costa is doing at times... the support arm is straight and the hand is rotated towards the top to the hand guards. Think about holding a lid on a kettle of boiling water with your hand on top of it.

Also, aggressively pull the weapon into your shoulder. Some people have enough strength that they can do this without changing the arm positions. Even an aggressive cheek weld in which you apply some downward pressure helps too.

Speed is not only recoil control, but trigger control...

To train muzzle stirkes, I hit a one by four piece of wood, about two feet long. Brace then ends against something. When you can break it, that is a good strike, then shorten the length and try again. Surge into with you body behind it, like your shooting position. Can this damage a weapon? Maybe, but my issued M4 still shoots the same. Muzzle strike have true knock down power.

[ballistic]

Upon further review, even the KAC NT4 can belch out some serious fireballs...

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/large/_32Y7160p.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/sh/large/_32Y0339.jpg

[Charles]

Im not really sure what those drills are to tbh.


The other thing i like to do is shoot at a target at 25 yards that has 5 four inch circles on it. I practice putting three shots down range as fast as i can into each four inch circle. I have no problems keeping all the rounds within each cicle, putting all three down range in about 1.5 seconds ( i havent actually timed anything but id say this is about right, it feels pretty quick).

Im not to concerned about my skill level... these modifications would be to enhance my skill... not replace. Ive been shooting my AR for about half a year now... prior to the AR i grew up shooting other firearms, mainly an m1 carbine.


The 2+2+2 drill and explanation can be viewed here- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVGPEgRZwIw&feature=related

The D-drill is a single 8in target at 50yds. Start in the low ready, with 5 rounds in the gun (one in chamber/4 in mag) and a spare mag with ten rounds- on the buzzer fire five rounds, reload as you go to kneeling, 5 kneeling, 5 rounds prone. Par time is 20 seconds with all 15 rounds in the 8in circle.

Until you can do the 2+2+2 drill in less then 2 seconds, consistently clean- all "A's", and the D-drill clean in 20sec a comp isn't going to do anything for you.



Second- without a timer you have zero clue as to what your times are. Consistently putting 3 rounds into a 4in target at 25 yards from the low ready in 1.5 seconds is very high level shooting and you would not be asking questions about technique. Not trying to be a dick, but trying to guess your times because "it feels pretty quick" is akin to guessing you're benching 500lbs becuase "it feels pretty heavy"....

[Alaskapopo]

A better question would be, do you want to run a rifle in the confines of your house?

Use a pistol...

Having given my opinion that was not asked for i will comment on the original question. Ive run an FSC556 brake at night and i had no issues being blinded or having my vision obscured. I will however say that the people shooting next to me were commenting on how there were sparks shooting everywhere out of the barrel of my gun. No fireballs, just sparks.

Ive also shot a DNTC comp at night with no flashlight and it was less than ideal. I did find the ball of fire that erupted from the end of my barrel a bit distracting and it would wash out my T1's red dot. I wouldnt really recommend one for serious home defense use since if you cant see, recoil reduction matters not for follow up shots.


Long gun always beats a handgun when you know there is danger. Pistols are carried only when a fight is not expected but just in case their may be one. Only a fool would chose a pistol over a long gun when he knows there is danger. If my guys show up to a gun call with out a rifle or shotgun in their hands they are going to get written up and possibly days on the beach.
Pat

[Fireglock]

Long gun always beats a handgun when you know there is danger. Pistols are carried only when a fight is not expected but just in case their may be one. Only a fool would chose a pistol over a long gun when he knows there is danger. If my guys show up to a gun call with out a rifle or shotgun in their hands they are going to get written up and possibly days on the beach.
Pat

With all due respect, aren't we talking about in our house/home? A hand gun with a large number seems to fit the bill for me. I would never fault someone for wanting to use their rifle but the logistics of being surprised in bed help me make the case for a handgun, quickly and easily into the fight without a great deal of movement. Easily handled, controllable if fired one handed while opening or closing doors and when equipped with a light/laser a very formidable defense weapon.

I whole heatedly agree with knowing a fight is or can be imminent, your rifle is your friend.

As to the FSC, there is noticeable recoil reduction (compared to an A2) and the flash is lower in lower light situations. BUT I haven't fired it in a dark room or outdoors at night.

Alskapopo, what are days at the beach like where you're at? :)

eta: spelling

[Mr.Goodtimes]

The 2+2+2 drill and explanation can be viewed here- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVGPEgRZwIw&feature=related

The D-drill is a single 8in target at 50yds. Start in the low ready, with 5 rounds in the gun (one in chamber/4 in mag) and a spare mag with ten rounds- on the buzzer fire five rounds, reload as you go to kneeling, 5 kneeling, 5 rounds prone. Par time is 20 seconds with all 15 rounds in the 8in circle.

Until you can do the 2+2+2 drill in less then 2 seconds, consistently clean- all "A's", and the D-drill clean in 20sec a comp isn't going to do anything for you.



Second- without a timer you have zero clue as to what your times are. Consistently putting 3 rounds into a 4in target at 25 yards from the low ready in 1.5 seconds is very high level shooting and you would not be asking questions about technique. Not trying to be a dick, but trying to guess your times because "it feels pretty quick" is akin to guessing you're benching 500lbs becuase "it feels pretty heavy"....

thanks for the link charles. Ill be practicing that when i make it to the range next time. The D drill sounds particularly cool.

I went to the range tonight, i dont have a shot timer, however, we had a stop watch, friend would start the stop watch, call go, and i would fire, he would stop the watch on my third round fired. Tonight i put a human silhouette at 15 meters, three shots, all to the head. Times were consistently 2.3 ish seconds, many were sub 2 seconds.

If you say thats high level shooting, thats nice to hear, i never thought i was that good, always just thought the other people at the range just werent that good.

I was asking for tips as, ive never been formally instructed. Ive just watched some youtube videos, looked at pictures, and gone to shoot. I sort of take what i see and see what feels right. I was asking for advice cause i didnt know if there was some secrete i was missing out on, like mabey if i tapped the heels of my boots three times before i step to the line, ill shoot faster more accurate strings. Im gonna attend a magpul carbine course this fall/early winter. so hopefully ill get to shoot with costa and haley and see what all they can do for me. a lot im sure.

While ive never really had any really formal training in a classroom, my dad was a police officer, and knew how to handel a rifle/pistol pretty well, and i learned from him. i grew up shooting guns since i was about ten. im 20 now. i would hope that i could shoot halfway decent by now.



Second- without a timer you have zero clue as to what your times are. Consistently putting 3 rounds into a 4in target at 25 yards from the low ready in 1.5 seconds is very high level shooting and you would not be asking questions about technique. Not trying to be a dick, but trying to guess your times because "it feels pretty quick" is akin to guessing you're benching 500lbs becuase "it feels pretty heavy"....

not to be a dick either but, i dont think its quite like that. ill be getting a shot timer to use here asap, and, i feel very confident that my times i hit on the shot timer will be very close to the ones i hit tonight. i have no doubt that my three shot strings are under three seconds.

where i totally admit ill probably have trouble is with the D drill, and i doubt my 2x2x2 will be 1.3 seconds or whatever crazy shit those vtac guys were shooting.

EDIT: i also wouldnt say that a comp wouldnt help unless i can meet "x" times for "x drill". Something that reduces muzzle climb and recoil would help anybody shoot better, pro or amature. granted, a pro with an a2 will outshoot an e commando with the most effective compensator ever, it would still help.

[Mr.Goodtimes]

What really helps me, is basically the same thing Costa is doing at times... the support arm is straight and the hand is rotated towards the top to the hand guards. Think about holding a lid on a kettle of boiling water with your hand on top of it.

Also, aggressively pull the weapon into your shoulder. Some people have enough strength that they can do this without changing the arm positions. Even an aggressive cheek weld in which you apply some downward pressure helps too.

Speed is not only recoil control, but trigger control...

To train muzzle stirkes, I hit a one by four piece of wood, about two feet long. Brace then ends against something. When you can break it, that is a good strike, then shorten the length and try again. Surge into with you body behind it, like your shooting position. Can this damage a weapon? Maybe, but my issued M4 still shoots the same. Muzzle strike have true knock down power.

thanks again iraq ninja! i already do everything that you describe, so, i guess somewhere in the process of watching and learning, i stumbled upon the right thing :). I just need to refine what i know more.

that muzzle strike drill sounds like a winner! im gonna have to say that, a birdcage to the jaw would probably make someone think twice about what their doing.

[Alaskapopo]

With all due respect, aren't we talking about in our house/home? A hand gun with a large number seems to fit the bill for me. I would never fault someone for wanting to use their rifle but the logistics of being surprised in bed help me make the case for a handgun, quickly and easily into the fight without a great deal of movement. Easily handled, controllable if fired one handed while opening or closing doors and when equipped with a light/laser a very formidable defense weapon.

I whole heatedly agree with knowing a fight is or can be imminent, your rifle is your friend.

As to the FSC, there is noticeable recoil reduction (compared to an A2) and the flash is lower in lower light situations. BUT I haven't fired it in a dark room or outdoors at night.

Alskapopo, what are days at the beach like where you're at? :)

eta: spelling

Yes its your house or home. However a handgun is a poor choice compared to a shotgun or carbine. With training you can handle a 16 inch carbine or 18 inch shotgun easily inside. Also you should not be searching the threat out but rather holding up and let him come to you. Pistols are not nearly as effective at stopping people as long guns nor are they as easy to hit with especially under stress.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

The 2+2+2 drill and explanation can be viewed here- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVGPEgRZwIw&feature=related

The D-drill is a single 8in target at 50yds. Start in the low ready, with 5 rounds in the gun (one in chamber/4 in mag) and a spare mag with ten rounds- on the buzzer fire five rounds, reload as you go to kneeling, 5 kneeling, 5 rounds prone. Par time is 20 seconds with all 15 rounds in the 8in circle.

Until you can do the 2+2+2 drill in less then 2 seconds, consistently clean- all "A's", and the D-drill clean in 20sec a comp isn't going to do anything for you.



Second- without a timer you have zero clue as to what your times are. Consistently putting 3 rounds into a 4in target at 25 yards from the low ready in 1.5 seconds is very high level shooting and you would not be asking questions about technique. Not trying to be a dick, but trying to guess your times because "it feels pretty quick" is akin to guessing you're benching 500lbs becuase "it feels pretty heavy"....

+1 excellent post. Without a timer you have no clue. When you feel fast you are often slow because you are jerking around. When you feel slow you are often fast because smooth is fast.
Pat

[Mr.Goodtimes]

alaska popo, i agree. smooth is fast and fast is smooth. i always remember this when im shooting, and dont just go trigger happy. instead i focus on hitting what i aim at, and have noticed my speed seems to have picked up from this.

[lanceriley]

for self defense I would agree the pistol is the easiest to go to. but if the threat is still out side the home banging on your fence or gate.. a shotgun or a rifle would be a better choice.

If the flash of a comp bothers you.... it will also bother the guy on the other end lol :D

[Mr.Goodtimes]

i keep the pistol and the rifle by the bed. the rifle has a mag inserted but no round in the chamber. the beretta is ready to go, round in the chamber, safety off, hammer down.

unless their kicking down my bedroom door, im gonna grab the rifle for its superior firepower.

maybe the flash will incinerate them? then i aint gotta call the police or ambulance, just sweep up the remains and flush em. :rolleyes:;)

[lanceriley]

well.. if that's the case... then grab the rifle. my gear is in the closet behind keys. got kids ya know.

[Charles]

Tonight i put a human silhouette at 15 meters, three shots, all to the head. Times were consistently 2.3 ish seconds, many were sub 2 seconds.

3 shots in 2.3sec on a 6-8in target at 15yds is quite a bit different then 3 shots in 1.5sec on a 4in target at 25yds...






EDIT: i also wouldnt say that a comp wouldnt help unless i can meet "x" times for "x drill". Something that reduces muzzle climb and recoil would help anybody shoot better, pro or amature. granted, a pro with an a2 will outshoot an e commando with the most effective compensator ever, it would still help.


The problem is until you get to a certain level the percentage of improvement is so small as to get lost in the noise- in other words you're not good enough to notice it.

An example: The difference in my average times between the PWS FSC and an A2 shooting the D-drill is around a second. When your times are in the 17sec range, a second is very measurable. However if your times are in the 30-40 second range (and having seen A LOT of people shoot the D-drill, that is on the fast end) one second is meaningless.

A comp will not increase your ability nearly as much as you think.

[Mr.Goodtimes]

yea it is... i did something different.

i also dont expect a comp to be some sort of miracle device.

[Heavy Metal]

You realize if you ever have to fire that thing indoors with the comp, It will feel like Thor's hammer has smacked you in the head?

Stuff like this is fine for three-gun but too much of a trade-off in real life.

[Mr.Goodtimes]

yea i realize that. im starting to lean more towards something like an AAC blackout as i would prefer to keep my hearing. Ideally, id like to put together an 11.5in suppressed SBR for indoor use.

[Magsz]

yea i realize that. im starting to lean more towards something like an AAC blackout as i would prefer to keep my hearing. Ideally, id like to put together an 11.5in suppressed SBR for indoor use.

Once you fire a rifle indoors you're going to loose your hearing comp or not.

Shit, even pistols sting.

[Fireglock]

Once you fire a rifle indoors you're going to loose your hearing comp or not.

Shit, even pistols sting.

That's what I'm thinking, there's no place for the sound pressure to go. I've seen it suggested that you keep a set of electronic ear protectors with your weapon so you can hear the little noises and save your hearing should a shot be fired.

[Magsz]

That's what I'm thinking, there's no place for the sound pressure to go. I've seen it suggested that you keep a set of electronic ear protectors with your weapon so you can hear the little noises and save your hearing should a shot be fired.

I dont want to speculate here but if you're going to don hearing protection in the case of a home invasion that seems a bit...premeditated to me...

Shrug.

[Fireglock]

I dont want to speculate here but if you're going to don hearing protection in the case of a home invasion that seems a bit...premeditated to me...

Shrug.

Uh you mean like I knew they were coming so I set myself up with hearing protection, a firearm and wouldn't let them harm my family or myself? :confused:

[Skter505]

I dont want to speculate here but if you're going to don hearing protection in the case of a home invasion that seems a bit...premeditated to me...

Shrug.

Some people would say the same thing about having a loaded gun next to your bed. I don't keep ears next to the gun but if you have the time why not. Now if they are already in the room with you it's too late for worrying about your hearing.

[vicious_cb]

unless you have electronic protection putting ears on will severely hamper your ability to detect whoever is trying to kill you...

[Charles]

The FSC isn't that bad indoors. I don't really notice a difference in blast/noise between it and a standard FH. Now my buddies on either side of me might :D, but you'ed have to ask them.

[Alaskapopo]

I dont want to speculate here but if you're going to don hearing protection in the case of a home invasion that seems a bit...premeditated to me...

Shrug.

What is premeditated is the punks action when they broke into your home.
Pat

[Jay Cunningham]

Moved thread to Training & Tactics forum.

[Skter505]

unless you have electronic protection putting ears on will severely hamper your ability to detect whoever is trying to kill you...

Of course. Definitely don't put plain muffs on. But with an electric set you may actually be better off with the extra hearing ability plus protection.

To stay on topic I have a FSC pinned on my 14.5 LMT and am undecided on it. It does help control the muzzle a bit and combined with a proper stance muzzle rise is minimal at the most, but same can be had with training and an A2. Also I have seen a very small but noticable blast while shooting in a indoor not so bright range.

[Thomas M-4]

Just a little personal experience talking hear shooting any firearms indoors is definitely going to be very loud even a 22lr is going to be louder than what you expected it to be. But when your adrenalin is pumping so hard that your rib cage is sore from your heart pounding and your ears are throbbing from the blood pressure being pushed through your body I have shot a 12 ga slug out of 16 inch shotgun barrel in a hallway the sound does not disable you your hearing simple goes away to tell you the truth I dont remember ever hearing it ringing until a few hours later after my adrenalin finally started to dissipate. If i was kicking doors in for a living I would definitely have some kind of protection on but for home invasions I am not going to wast time trying to put on hearing protection.
YMMV

[John_Wayne777]

Uh you mean like I knew they were coming so I set myself up with hearing protection, a firearm and wouldn't let them harm my family or myself? :confused:

More like "And so we can see that Mr. FireGlock was just waiting for the opportunity to get his first kill, and that unfortunate person happened to be little Jimmy who was doing better in school and was turning his life around before Mr. FireGlock gunned him down."

As to the compensator issue:

We're talking about 5.56 carbines here. If you're an average sized dude managing a 5.56 won't be much of a problem. On a carbine meant for general purposes it would be MUCH better to have a muzzle device that minimizes muzzle flash. Compensators do not always do that. Often they make it worse.

[Fireglock]

More like "And so we can see that Mr. FireGlock was just waiting for the opportunity to get his first kill, and that unfortunate person happened to be little Jimmy who was doing better in school and was turning his life around before Mr. FireGlock gunned him down."

Ooh, if that's valid, better my Glock than a nasty ole Shotgun or Assault Weapon! We have to be politically correct when we try to keep from dieing! Hopefully I'll never have it put to the test.

[Mr.Goodtimes]

More like "And so we can see that Mr. FireGlock was just waiting for the opportunity to get his first kill, and that unfortunate person happened to be little Jimmy who was doing better in school and was turning his life around before Mr. FireGlock gunned him down."

As to the compensator issue:

We're talking about 5.56 carbines here. If you're an average sized dude managing a 5.56 won't be much of a problem. On a carbine meant for general purposes it would be MUCH better to have a muzzle device that minimizes muzzle flash. Compensators do not always do that. Often they make it worse.

yea i think that after reading, ive pretty much totally changed my mind and will probably put an AAC blackout on my rifle. i have the open bottom bird cage flash hider and it does pretty good but i think that the blackout will do better.

[Charles]

As to the compensator issue:

We're talking about 5.56 carbines here. If you're an average sized dude managing a 5.56 won't be much of a problem. On a carbine meant for general purposes it would be MUCH better to have a muzzle device that minimizes muzzle flash. Compensators do not always do that. Often they make it worse.

It isn't the size of the round or the amount of recoil, it's about putting rounds down range as quickly and accurately as possible. Compensators can help with that. As for the flash, you just have to use the right compensator.