View Full Version : Pls help me decide...9mm or .40
I've always wanted a Walther P99 and I'm planning on having my local FFL order one. I've pretty much decided I want an all-black AS trigger model but I'm going back and forth on what caliber to get it in.
I already have a Springfield XDm in .40 that I really like and have a healthy stash of .40 tucked away. Together with the theoretically better stopping power of .40 those are good reasons to get it in that caliber.
But there's also the appeal of getting a new caliber (this will be my first 9) and the benefit of more rounds per clip (14 versus 12). Not to mention that a P99 in 9mm just sounds right dontyathink (that's not really a serious reason but it's an amusing one lol)?
Price is pretty much the same for either.
So what do you guys think?
Oh, and please no flaming saying I should get a Glock, 1911, M&P, or somebody else's other favorite model - I know there are other guns that are just as good or better out there - this is just a pistol I've always liked.
I don't think the idea of a differential in "stopping power" (or even it's arguable existance in service handgun calibers) is going to gain a lot of traction here.
The P99 9mm has a standard capacity magazine of 15 rounds (not 14).
I would personally get the 9mm.
There's little to no difference in between the premium offerings of 9mm and 40SW.
There's potentially substantial difference in costs, esp over the lifetime of the gun.
Magazine capacity is not a consideration for me above 10-12 rounds.
I'd choose neither the Walther nor the SAI, for reasons you can review via the search button. First choice remains a G17 or a G19 in a 9mm for anything important.
I should get a Glock
I agree! The clips are easier to find and buy!
thopkins22
05-11-09, 15:07
I agree! The clips are easier to find and buy!
You're killing me.:D
The best reason for me in choosing a pistol caliber is cost of shooting as I'm not an LEO or military guy. So that being said I would choose 9mm while not a whole lot cheaper right now it is still cheaper, and over the course of your pistols lifetime the savings will start to add up.
Business_Casual
05-11-09, 16:44
How quickly and how accurately you can shoot your pistol is of far more importance than what caliber it is.
M_P
PS - clips, FFS
Okay thank you for the input. Yes, I know I made a mistake putting clip instead of magazine. I appreciate the correction but I didn't feel like it was necessary to make me sound like a total idiot for a common error. Some responses were more diplomatic than others about it and to those that responded with helpful advice (and not just took the liberty to poke fun) I thank you very much. To the others, sorry for being such a noob, I'll be sure to keep out of your way then next time since you guys are obviously so much more HSLD than I am.
Can't remember where I found this but - enjoy!
LOL. Thank you, I'll try to remember it from now on :D
LOL. Thank you, I'll try to remember it from now on :D
Yeah, I was trying to post a picture but - forget it! :o Just go buy the 9!
thopkins22
05-11-09, 20:12
Yes, I know I made a mistake putting clip instead of magazine. I appreciate the correction but I didn't feel like it was necessary to make me sound like a total idiot for a common error...To the others, sorry for being such a noob, I'll be sure to keep out of your way then next time since you guys are obviously so much more HSLD than I am.
I don't think anybody was calling you an idiot. Nor do I think it was implied that everyone who knows the correct terminology is a tactical guru(though there are plenty of those running around here.) You should realize that you asked one of the most thoroughly discussed questions, that has been answered many many times(search both the handgun section and in the Terminal Ballistics section,) so people are less apt to take the question seriously and are more apt to having a reaction to a common pet peeve.
For what it's worth, I recall Dr. Roberts saying that the only real advantage .40S&W has over 9x19 is shooting through glass. Do you plan on shooting people in their vehicles? A real concern for a highway patrolman, but probably not for anyone else in this thread other than maybe Skintop911...and even he doesn't sound like he's convinced of any performance gains that aren't offset with more recoil, higher price, and fewer bullets.
I don't think anybody was calling you an idiot. Nor do I think it was implied that everyone who knows the correct terminology is a tactical guru(though there are plenty of those running around here.) You should realize that you asked one of the most thoroughly discussed questions, that has been answered many many times(search both the handgun section and in the Terminal Ballistics section,) so people are less apt to take the question seriously and are more apt to having a reaction to a common pet peeve.
For what it's worth, I recall Dr. Roberts saying that the only real advantage .40S&W has over 9x19 is shooting through glass. Do you plan on shooting people in their vehicles? A real concern for a highway patrolman, but probably not for anyone else in this thread other than maybe Skintop911...and even he doesn't sound like he's convinced of any performance gains that aren't offset with more recoil, higher price, and fewer bullets.
Thank you for the helpful response. I asked the choice of 9mm vs. .40 not so much from a pure performance standpoint (which is why I only briefly mentioned stopping power and why even then I said it was theoretical) but rather more in a practical, here's-what-I-have-now-what-would-you-get-in my-situation sort of way. It just seemed a little bit much that every other post was more about poking fun at my using the wrong terminology than giving any useful advice. I didn't mean for anyone to focus on stopping power being the key deciding factor. In any case, I did get some helpful responses - enough to make up my mind to get a 9mm. I just have to rethink now if this forum is too hardcore for an enthusiastic but civilian, non-LE/SF shooter like myself.
Yeah, I was trying to post a picture but - forget it! :o Just go buy the 9!
I did see the pic before whatever happened that took it down so that's why I said thanks.
.45 ACP.
Not an option?
Remember Rule #23 (or #24 depending on which list you look at) of Rules For A Gunfight-
Do not attend a gun fight with a handgun whose caliber does not start with a "4."
thopkins22
05-11-09, 21:23
In any case, I did get some helpful responses - enough to make up my mind to get a 9mm. I just have to rethink now if this forum is too hardcore for an enthusiastic but civilian, non-LE/SF shooter like myself.
I think you should stay, especially if you're interested in quality information without all the anonymous bull that comes with the errornet. Use the search function, read the stickies, learn, and enjoy yourself. Everybody puts their foot in their mouth at some point, realizes they made a poor purchase, or realizes that they didn't know as much as they thought they did. I've done all three.:cool:
Not speaking on the choice of model, but for caliber I'd go 9mm without hesitation. And that's after carrying a .40S&W for duty or CCW for over a decade.
I find that .40S&W has really no pro's over 9mm for me.
With the 9mm, I get cheaper ammo, which lets me train more. I get a light recoil impusle which gets me better and faster hits. It's not that I can't shot a .40 or .45 well, cause I do. But I shoot the 9 better. (Although I really haven't shot some of the newer model .45's to compare). And for the icing on the cake I get higher capacity.
Ther is something to say for having caliber commonality, but if it were me, I'd go with the 9mm, and that's what you asked.
-RD62
9mm;
works just as well in real life contrary to what many folks who pontificate about caliber like to claim, holds more rounds, has lower recoil, costs far less to feed.
After having tested the Walther for our department, it would not be my choice, not even on my list of choices.
I think these guns had issues in the .40 chambering, but the when and where are fuzzy in the memory right now.
Glock 17 or 19, or the M&P, would be my choice, but buy what you want, you'll have to live with decision, not me.
gtmtnbiker98
05-12-09, 11:22
I'll be the oddball, I like the .40 for carry. With that said, I own several of each - so I have options.
decodeddiesel
05-12-09, 15:22
Another vote for the 9mm.
This is the caliber which the weapon was designed for and from my research has had less problems than the .40 cal version.
http://www.waltherforums.com
Heavy Metal
05-12-09, 15:38
.45 ACP.
Not an option?
Remember Rule #23 (or #24 depending on which list you look at) of Rules For A Gunfight-
Well, .40 S&W is a valid choice for you then.
okay, I may be confused, but the Original Poster states he already has a .40, correct ?
In my simple opinion, it is all math if you already have a .40 with ammo - you will never save enough by buying 9 over 40 to "PAY FOR THE NEW GUN " !!!! in other words, the purchase of the 9 pistol will erase all you ever save by the cheaper ammo, so it will never "save" you anything !
but, always a proverbial but, if you just want another pistol, buy one and don't worry about the logistics
have fun
(yes, I have a bunch of pistols, for no other reason than the fun)
A few years back a guy in my wife's agency gets jumped by a armed mugger in an apartment lobby, throws his wallet on the ground as a distraction then draws and dumps 11 9mm Golddots into the perp's torso. When the bus arrives 10 minutes later, the perp still has the presence of mind to say, and I quote, "I don't feel so good". Granted, he later lapsed into a coma and died a few weeks later of organ failure but you can have 9mm.
I have had three co-workers involved in three different .40S&W shootings. Five rounds expended, between the three, two dead perps and the other will defecate through a plastic bag attached to his abdomen for the rest of his life. I'll stick with .40S&W, thank you.
decodeddiesel
05-12-09, 21:42
A few years back a guy in my wife's agency gets jumped by a armed mugger in an apartment lobby, throws his wallet on the ground as a distraction then draws and dumps 11 9mm Golddots into the perp's torso. When the bus arrives 10 minutes later, the perp still has the presence of mind to say, and I quote, "I don't feel so good". Granted, he later lapsed into a coma and died a few weeks later of organ failure but you can have 9mm.
I have had three co-workers involved in three different .40S&W shootings. Five rounds expended, between the three, two dead perps and the other will defecate through a plastic bag attached to his abdomen for the rest of his life. I'll stick with .40S&W, thank you.
Yeah and this one time I saw a guy in Iraq get nicked in the pinky with a .45, which caused his whole arm to explode, organs to liquefy, brain to melt, and I heard his whole family later died.
Come on dude: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
Not calling you a liar, that full well could have happened, but it's hardly conclusive evidence against the 9mm as a viable defensive cartridge.
Carry what ever you feel comfortable with.
Well, thanks for the helpful replies guys. Despite .40 being my first choice, I ended up going for a 9mm after weighing everything. I'm not an LEO or active military so at this time this is more of a hobby for me than anything I have to entrust my life to (though I appreciate the thoughts of those that do) so wanting a different caliber won out over more practical concerns like logistics.
This will also not be an only gun by any means for me so the comments about better alternatives are still appreciated if not really applicable in this case since this is more a "want" purchase than a "need". I'll definitely be looking at other handguns after this including a .45 but for now I'm looking forward to getting my P99.
My local FFL said they might even get it in by next week since their distributor apparently has the 9mm in stock. Oh, and I made sure to buy an extra magazine just in case the government decides we should all make do with reduced-cap mags again :D
for Decodedeisel,
Federal Agent Shoots a Would-Be Robber in the East Village
By MICHAEL WILSON
Published: March 6, 2004
An off-duty federal agent shot a man trying to rob him in his mother's East Village apartment lobby late Thursday night, the police said.
The agent, assigned to the New York field office of the Bureau of Diplomatic Security, was identified by a friend as Jose Espinal. A State Department spokeswoman said the would-be robber threatened him with a gun and demanded money.
The spokeswoman, Darlene Kirk, said: "The agent gave up his wallet. However, the suspect came toward the agent in a threatening manner. A struggle ensued. The suspect fired at least one shot at the agent, who returned fire."
The shooting occurred minutes before midnight at 178 Avenue D, near 12th Street, when the gunman, Montelle Emerson, 31, of 248 Vernon Avenue in Brooklyn, approached the agent with a .380-caliber pistol, the police said. A law enforcement official said the agent tossed his wallet to the ground and when Mr. Emerson bent to pick it up, pulled his service pistol, and the two exchanged fire.
A witness, Billy Marquez, 18, said he heard the shots and entered the lobby to see Mr. Emerson slumped in a half-sitting position, bleeding from the chest, while the agent called for help. When the police arrived, Mr. Emerson "was telling the cops he didn't feel very well," Mr. Marquez said.
Mr. Espinal was treated for powder burns on his face at Beth Israel Medical Center, while Mr. Emerson was in serious condition at Bellevue Hospital Center. He has previous robbery convictions, and a weapons conviction under the name Sherlock Holmes, court records show.
A friend of Mr. Espinal, Michael Lopez, said the agent was visiting his mother in the building. "This is what he was trained for, but he doesn't like to use his weapon," Mr. Lopez said. "He had to do what he had to do."
IMO this platform in .40 is a handful. I have no issues with .40 in SIGs, or .357 SIG or Mag. Same with 45ACP. But my P99 in .40 was very slippery under recoil.
thopkins22
05-13-09, 00:41
for Decodedeisel...
And? You don't think that you can find cases of just about every round in existence not performing well?
What about the SF sergeant who had been shot TWENTY some times with 7.62x39 and walked to the helicopter on his own power. How is that possible?
There are exceptions with everything.
We've been shooting folks with our 9mms for 20 years, never had to fire more than four rounds in any of our OISs yet.
Could it happen? Of course.
I know of numerous high round count .40 shootings where the suspect failed to stop.
I was personally involved in an event where the suspect was shot through the aorta with a .45 and failed to be impressed for a shocking amount of time.
In an OIS we had last year the 50 something year old crazy lady who tried to go active shooter was hit with two 12 gauge bean bag rounds, a 12 gauge slug and a .223 BTHP, yet when officer approached to secure her she was trying to crawl over and reach the shotgun she had dropped when she fell over (slug hit was to the pelvis).
Two weeks ago during an attempted home invasion the female victim was shot with a 12 gauge slug, yet she at first had no idea that she had been shot.
"Shot 11 times in the torso" doesn't tell us what structures in the suspect's body were hit.
I'm guessing that no one here will try to claim that 12 gauge slugs lack "stopping power".
decodeddiesel
05-13-09, 09:51
kmrtnsn,
I'm not about to get into some kind of long winded argument about terminal ballistics. There is a whole forum specifically for that which I linked you to.
The current scientific data in terminal ballistics testing indicates there is so little difference between the terminal ballistics of all major service pistol calibers (9x19mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, .45 ACP) that basing a decision on which caliber to buy based solely on percieved terminal performance is foolish at best.
I know a hell of a lot about P99s, I have owned, been carrying, and researching them for years. That said the platform has shown to be greatly more reliable and less troublesome when firing 9mm as opposed to .40 S&W. I could get into all of the problems with .40 cal P99s but it would be a waste of time in this context. The OP made the right decision and got the 9mm. Furthermore the OP wasn't looking for random anecdotal evidence as to the terminal performance of 9mm vs .40, he was asking specifically which caliber should he purchase the pistol in.
I am going to say however that there have been plenty of documented failures of ALL calibers to stop or kill a threat. You story proves the attack was stopped was it not? He may not have disintegrated at a quantum level as a result of the "massive" terminal ballistics of the 9mm, but he did stop. I would go so far as to hazard an opinion and say if the defender had been armed with a .40, .45, etc. and had the same shot placement the attack would have gone the exact same way. Allow me to quote Dr. Roberts from the thread I linked you to:
NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage.
Here's some examples of failures of common pistol (and rifle cartridges):
http://www.journalgazette.net/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090109/NEWS11/901090277
http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2008/10/40-caliber-failure.html
http://www.liquibyte.com/image/officer.pdf
Should he feel under armed with a 9mm P99? If it proves to reliably feed quality JHP ammo and he can shoot it well, absolutely not.
Cultivate the warrior mindset
Invest in high quality training from a reputable instructor
Purchase a reliable, high quality weapon system
Ensure your pistol will fire at least 1000 rounds without failure
Purchase 500 rounds of your choice duty load and stop worrying about it (be it 9x19mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, .45 ACP)
John_Wayne777
05-13-09, 10:23
.45 ACP.
Not an option?
Remember Rule #23 (or #24 depending on which list you look at) of Rules For A Gunfight-
You know, folks, we have a Terminal Ballistics forum here that is loaded with great information put out by actual experts in the field.
http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.
http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Handgun_expanded_JHP.jpg
Basically all the standard service calibers work when fed good quality ammunition. The platform picked tends to dictate the caliber. For example, Glocks and Sigs tend to run best in 9 mm; the S&W M&P is the first .40 S&W pistol that seems to offer an ideal ergonomic and shooter friendly package; while a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with a S&W .45 ACP M&P, HK45, S&W 4566, or possibly the SA .45 ACP XD.
Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.
------------------------------------------
The keys are:
-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.
As for the original question:
1. I would strongly encourage re-examining the choice of a P99 and looking at other models on the market as well. I say this as a former P99 owner. "Liking" the gun based on how it looks in pictures isn't really telling you much about what it is like to live with the weapon day to day. I lived with the P99 day to day in a 9mm version. Mine worked well, was accurate, and was reliable. Spare parts were non existent, hicap mags were rape, and night sights weren't easy to come by. A decent little pistol for the most part, but nowhere near as widely supported as the Glock or newer offerings like the M&P. You may find that another weapon fits your needs better than the P99
2. I would stick to the 9mm chambering in the P99. They seemed to be the most reliable.
3. All guns are not created equal. Some platforms are good in .40...others blow goats.
okay, John_Wayne 777 , if you are going to use intellect, common sense, and scientifically proven data, well, you just can't play with us anymore.......
.
( just kidding - great post - thanks for the info )
As for the original question:
1. I would strongly encourage re-examining the choice of a P99 and looking at other models on the market as well. I say this as a former P99 owner. "Liking" the gun based on how it looks in pictures isn't really telling you much about what it is like to live with the weapon day to day. I lived with the P99 day to day in a 9mm version. Mine worked well, was accurate, and was reliable. Spare parts were non existent, hicap mags were rape, and night sights weren't easy to come by. A decent little pistol for the most part, but nowhere near as widely supported as the Glock or newer offerings like the M&P. You may find that another weapon fits your needs better than the P99
2. I would stick to the 9mm chambering in the P99. They seemed to be the most reliable.
3. All guns are not created equal. Some platforms are good in .40...others blow goats.
Thank you again for the informative posts. Although I didn't intend ballistic performance to be the major point here this is all still interesting reading for a newb like me.
John_Wayne777, once again, I think its a good thing that so many here have emphasized the virtue of choosing a reliable pistol but I would like to reassure everyone again that the P99 will not be a primary self-defense weapon for me. I also have an XDm-40 (not to mention my M&P15) and am very likely to purchase more firearms in the near future. So I am very open to considering the better options for future purchases and am not ignoring the extra input.
For right now though, I'm concentrating on getting as much range time, practice, and learning as I can so that I can be better with whatever firearm I decide to use.
thopkins22
05-13-09, 21:47
For right now though, I'm concentrating on getting as much range time, practice, and learning as I can so that I can be better with whatever firearm I decide to use.
Cue applause...guns and gear are very cool, hence the reason most of us are here. But totally worthless without mindset and training.
Liked the pistols that were DESIGNED FOR 9mm's(Browning Hi-Power and Glock 19/26) more than the round itself,but having said that the round has come a LONG WAY in the last 5-10 yrs. The new loads have now taken the 9mm and the compact pistols designed for them to the level of "confidence" that inspired the 40 S&W to begin with. The 40 to me is that "in-between" cartridge that tries to do it all and succeeds somewhat. In the end if I want compactness/capacity I go 9mm(loaded HOT)and when I want to go BIG(as in making HOLES)I bust out one of my Colt 1911's in 45ACP. Just my TWO CENTS! :D
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