View Full Version : How about a new folding front sight...
K.L. Davis
01-06-07, 14:13
Here are some pics of Vltor's new front sight... it may look familiar to many, that is because Eric did the original design back in 1996 (as Unitech Research) and the original design has been used or copied by other companies -- if you squint a little when you look at the pics, you can tell who :p
Anyway, at the request of end users, Vltor has brought the sight back... and with improvements!
http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/2809/m4k1rx0.jpg
http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/2394/m4k2tr3.jpg
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2476/sightoldnnewtj8.jpg
Above is a mint condition original, shown with the newest offering... The subtle differences belie the improvements made in the decade between the two. One of the best designs made better... sort of gives new meaning to "raising the front sight"!
all better now ;)
Looks interesting.
So the original was pinned, and the new one is a screw-on?
Looks outstanding! Put me down for 20 of the clamp model and the taper pin model! :D
C4
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Huh?
:confused:
baffle Stack
01-06-07, 14:54
Is the flash suppressor new too?
K.L. Davis
01-06-07, 14:58
Huh?
:confused:
Ummm, double checking the photos for content ;)
Did somebody make an uh oh??
C4
Nice...I am no longer confused.
I like that a lot. Did you shoot those pictures in RAW, or as JPEG files?
Looks nice! I haven't seen the VLTOR FS before either. Thanks for the info and pics.
K.L. Davis
01-06-07, 16:00
The flash suppresor is new... it was purpose designed for that rifle, the M4K, but it seems that it is popular with all lengths of barrel :D
If you look, the barrel is between an M4 and a Mk18 -- the slightly longer barrel adds an important bit of length. The FS serves a few functions, it is a very efficient FS, intended to be used with a suppressor and even has the groove for the BFA :eek:
Stick: Funny man, I have an Aiptek DV3100+ camera... if I sold it, I could probably not get lunch for two at Subway, really -- given my well known prowess for taking pictures, I am sure that not a person alive suspects that I took those pictures... so sure, 220... 221... whatever it takes :p
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/7141/fs1as3.jpg
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/4586/ffs1fh4.jpg
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/4003/m4k4cleangr6.jpg
Did you mug a caveman for that camera?
How well does that FS work when compared to a standard A2?
I like the FS.
I like the idea of a folding front sight that doesn't have a round hood.
However, I'm not sure what you're supposed to gain with the rails?
Eric just keeps coming up with nice stuff :cool:
They should offer a pinned version with bayo lug . I know why the bayo lug! Does this sight lock in up position? If locking and be pinned with bayo lug I would buy some.
However, I'm not sure what you're supposed to gain with the rails?
You put your Troy BUIS on there, so then the VLTOR becomes a BUBUIS. ;)
I like the FS.
I like the idea of a folding front sight that doesn't have a round hood.
Yes, good point.
Mark
Interesting.
Does it lock up and down?
Is it spring loaded?
and as mentioned before whats with the rails?
What material is it made of?
Steel, aluminum?
Interesting... Looks like a good alternative to the similar looking unobtanium product.
This looks like an excellent alternative to the combination front sight/gas blocks out there in the market today.
Can we get some details on how it operates?
Thanks.
militarymoron
01-06-07, 18:15
eric took those pics i believe - i added them in a short preview here (colour corrected of course) :D :
http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/ar.uppers.html#m4k
i was told no plans for a pinned version, so no gunsmithing required. the cross bolts will have a hole in the threaded end and the hole in the gas block will have a slot. when the hole is 'punched', it'll drive material into the slot, locking the bolt and preventing it from loosening.
the front sight locks up with just a ball detent. no spring. if hit, it'll just fold, rather than damage a locking mechanism.
edited to add: ok, so there WILL be a pinned version as well. a lot can change in a day! :)
K.L. Davis
01-06-07, 18:23
Here goes... quick read through, so let me know if I missed anything.
* The FS works on par with any birdcage, from an informal "watch this" test method anyway -- they are still playing with the port/cut shapes and sizes and all of that, keep in mind this was designed to work with the HALO suppressor.
* The rail on top is at the request of an end user... and yes, if you need a rugged fixed sight, an attached sight "cap" will mount on it and then you would have really both.
* It is made from steel
* It is spring loaded, it has to arc over quite far before it closes... I know that some years ago, when I was working with the mid-length system M4, it was requested that any folding sights do not lock up. The rational is that in the field, if you break the lock (think jamming it into a door frame CQB or break it jumping) then the front sight is OOC.
* The front sight post is AK47 and adjust with an AK47 tool ;)
* There is a pinned version, or you can blind pin the clamp on.
* I bought the camera at a Freddy's in Oregon last year... it was the newest model they had in the case :p
* The rail on top is at the request of an end user... and yes, if you need a rugged fixed sight, an attached sight "cap" will mount on it and then you would have really both.
So basically it is an extended rail for when it is being used a a fixed sight. I figured it would be something like that. Can you divulge exactly what is was meant for? What specific accessory that is. Thanks.
K.L. Davis
01-06-07, 19:03
So basically it is an extended rail for when it is being used a a fixed sight. I figured it would be something like that. Can you divulge exactly what is was meant for? What specific accessory that is. Thanks.
To tell the truth I think it was more of a JIC thing... there were not many folks making this sort of stuff 10-12 years ago, so it may just have been to avoid someone coming along a year later and saying "this sight would be perfect, if it had a rail section on top of it" :(
Anyway, all I can say is that I know Eric has had many requests to bring the original sight back, so he did -- the rail may just be there because it was on the original and no one remembers why, but given that "field expedient" is truely an art, I guess it is better to have them and not need them.
I remember back about 10 years ago, we were testing a piece of specialized PPE and one of the guys says "it needs a patch of velcro right here" pointing to one of the only empty spots... of course I asked what for and without missing a beat he says "cause there's nothing there, which makes it a good place to put something in the future... and that way you will already have a velcro pad to attach it to"
In an odd way, these things make a lot of sense...
Makes sense. Better to have and not need than need and not have. It's not like it's a huge weight penalty or anything.
I personally love pinned, flip up front sights and the only option he have really had is the KAC (not available) and the GG&G (which doesn't do it for me). If the clamp model is as rigid as a pinned FSB, then great!
I think a good number of these will find their way onto Noveske, BCM and Sabre Defence barrels. :D
C4
Grendelizer
01-06-07, 20:30
. . . it was requested that any folding sights do not lock up. The rational is that in the field, if you break the lock (think jamming it into a door frame CQB or break it jumping) then the front sight is OOC.
I agree with that point. It seems to me that it's a fundamentally correct concept that all flip-up front sights should incorporate.
Another fundamentally correct concept, as far as I'm concerned, is that all flip-up front sights should fold to the rear. (Sorry, HK and FN! ;)) I haven't field tested this theory, but my guess is that frontward folders will catch on too much vegetation, wires, gear straps, and other crap.
Don't like the integral rails. If you mount something there, then your flip-up sight is useless! Leave them out and lessen the price. If you had to add them, I'd rather see them on the bottom for bipod mounting, but wouldn't that ruin any benefits from someone's free-floated barrel?
Another question: Is that hole for quick-detach sling mounts? Maybe they do have some confidence in the ability of the screw mounting system to take some weight.
My thoughts on gas-block flip-up front sights follow.
Why a flip-up front sight in the first place? For guys with 1x optics who don't like the clutter in their FOV. This makes your flip-up irons truly emergency backups only. And why on the gas block and not, for example, the front of the top rail? I would venture that it's so that your sight tracks with the barrel as it heats up and moves slightly.
They should:
1. Fold to the rear to minimize snagging.
2. Be simple. Truly only for emergency backups to your glass optics, not match shooting. Keeps the price-tag down.
3. Be rugged. The incident that broke your glass optics should NOT also have broken your backup iron sights.
4. Lock in the down position, but be easy to release with gloved hands.
5. NOT lock up, but only be held up by strong spring pressure. This prevents a sharp blow from shearing them (as mentioned above), they simply spring down and instantly spring back up. This is actually a ruggedness feature, when you think about it. This should also keep the price down.
6. Be pinned on, for rugged reliability; unless testing bears out that screws are just as rugged. See point 3 above.
7. Use the AK sight-post system, assuming it's cheaper than the AR. This still allows your elevation adjustments when zeroing, but keeps the price down.
8. Speaking of AKs, I hear what Larry Vickers is saying, but I'd still like an AK-style semi-hooded sight pin protectors. That's just me. . . .
9. Main riser bar of sight should be relatively thin (as Vltor's and YHM's are) to maximize target tracking and situational awareness.
10. Whole unit should aim for a retail price of $100. Not happy with current units costing $170.
John
K.L. Davis
01-06-07, 21:31
Just so folks don't get the wrong word out... there is a pinned version of the front sight, but naturally it is a "gunsmith install" type thing -- you need the jig, drill, taper bits and all of that.
But rest assured that the usual suspects will be able to buy undrilled, pin on versions for their builds :D
K.L. thanks for the explanation.
deadwood83
01-07-07, 18:22
Will there ever be a version that takes AR front sight posts?
It's good that they plan to make a taper pin version for those of us with taper pin drilled barrels.
Yes, it appears those are indeed front sling swivel mounting points.
I like the flash hider. Very neat looking.
I'll take one of each.
BravoCompanyUSA
01-07-07, 20:25
Wow ! Very nice, I can't wait to check out Vltor's booth this weekend!:D
I like the barrel as well. do they plan on selling it ?
I would guess only as an entire upper but maybe not. Check mm's site. He had quite a bit of info.
K.L. Davis
01-07-07, 22:01
*Doubtful on the AR sight pin version... it is a matter of how much room there is to work with.
*Yes QD sling swivels, just like the original... I know that some folks would never use the sight block for a sling swivel, but some would -- look at all of the after market doo-dads to put a sling swivel there.
*I am sure the flash suppressor will be available seperately... I will try to get some video of it firing posted, it works quite well really.
*The barrel is the M4K barrel, it is a short barrel and has a definite purpose (users seem to really like the 12.5" barrels)... I will find out if it will be available seperately.
I like the looks of the FS so much I think my first AR suppressor will have to be a HALO instead of a G5 or OPS can!
K.L. Davis
01-08-07, 20:28
How well does that FS work when compared to a standard A2?
Here is a short vid clip of the new FS firing... while not the dead of night, you can see that it is very effective. M4K_FS_SHOT.wmv (http://www.darkmountainresearch.com/images/M4K_FS_SHOT.wmv)
Hoplophile
02-18-07, 21:18
I can't get the FS video to load.
Any ETA on the front sight? I've got a barrel that -needs- this.
I can't get the FS video to load.
Any ETA on the front sight? I've got a barrel that -needs- this.
+1 on ETA, I need the pinned version.
So is this available yet? Soon? Ever? Price?
Robb Jensen
02-19-07, 06:26
It's a way cool sight and I got to mess with it at SHOT. The one thing I didn't like about it was that it doesn't lock in the up position. I also like the flash suppressor.
militarymoron
02-19-07, 09:39
The one thing I didn't like about it was that it doesn't lock in the up position.
there are a couple of reasons for that. one was operators' requests NOT to have the front sight lock up. the other is that a knock to the front sight when locked up can damage the locking mechanism - deform it enough to cause some play where it so that it no longer locks up all the way, or bend the sight itself. with a detent or spring loaded front sight, it's more likely to fold partially when impacted and suffer less permanent damage. of course, the con to that is you might not know it's been bumped and find out that it's halfway folded when you take a sight picture.
there are good arguments for either designs on both sides. i think a spring loaded, non-locking sight has the best of both worlds - it deflects when struck and will return by itself to the upright position.
Sooo... When & How Much??!!:D
The one thing I didn't like about it was that it doesn't lock in the up position. .
Ditto --
Like the ARMS #40 rear BIS - a sight that does not lock up can get grit and debris in it and then it flips up it is not fully engaged.
I'd much prefer a system like KAC's that allows for it to be left to the operator to lock it up or leave the spring by itself.
Posted by K.L.Davis:
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/4003/m4k4cleangr6.jpg
Oh my that's purdy . I like the suppressor as well .
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