PDA

View Full Version : Ed Brown Special Forces vs Wilson Combat CQB vs Yost-Bonitz 1* Springfield Armory GI



rob_s
01-06-07, 16:18
Ed Brown Special Forces (http://www.edbrown.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/00268.1.880802369229737049)
Wilson Combat CQB (http://wilsoncombat.com/p_cqb.asp)
Yost-Bonits 1* Enhanced (http://yost-bonitz.com/packages/1asterisk-enhanced/) Springfield Armory GI (http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=6)

I have been wanting to do a comparison of $1800 1911 pattern pistols for awhile. I was somewhat holding out until I got an Rock River Arms to go with these, but figured I could always add the RRA to the list later on. In fairness, I cheated a bit with regards to the CQB in that I bought it used. I am not letting the wear frm the used gun color my perception of these pistols, and I have handled plenty of brand new CQBs to know what issues with my gun are wear related.

I'm going to give each pistol a "score" for each aspect, with 3 being the best and 1 being the worst. This is totally arbitrary, and I have no idea what the outcome will be. In many cases one aspect should be weighted higher or lower than another, but I'm just going to stick to a simple scoring system. If you like it then use it, if you don't then ignore it. We don't, however, need to hijack the thread discussing it.

I finally got the pictures taken and thought I'd at least post a few of those. I'm going to put up a separate post in the thread for each aspect of the pistols, and say which of the 3 I like the best and why for each aspect. I'm going to start with the general photos in this post.

So, on with the general pics.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/PerspectiveBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/PerspectiveWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/PerspectiveYost.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/StarboardBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/StarboardWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/StarboardYost.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/StarboardBrownOpen.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/StarboardWilsonOpen.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/StarboardYostOpen.jpg

rob_s
01-06-07, 16:20
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/PortBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/PortWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/PortYost.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/PortBrownOpen.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/PortWilsonOpen.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/PortYostOpen.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/UndersideBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/UndersideWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/UndersideYost.jpg

rob_s
01-06-07, 16:29
The Yost is the "grittiest" feeling of the three. I do not believe that much was done as a part of the 1* package to address the slide-to-frame fit, and it feels in the way that the slide moves back and forth. It doesn't bind, but it's not exactly smooth either. The Brown, on the other hand, feels like it is on ball bearings. It is so smooth in the way that the slide moves that it's amazing. The Wilson feels on par with other Wilson's I've felt, and while close to the feel of the Brown, it's just a little bit rougher.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with function. Many people would say "as long as the gun shoots, who cares?" That is a good point, but I have to say that the Brown also feels like it recoils the smoothest as well. It does stand to reason that the gun that has the smoothest action when hand cycling would also have the smoothest action when firing.

So, for this portion:
Brown 3
Wilson 2
Yost 1

rob_s
01-06-07, 16:29
I will also say that the finish (or lack thereof) of the Yost gun is the most lacking. You will see in subsequent pictures that the matte stainless finish is rusting in places. I am not a big fan of excessive maintenance on firearms, and all three of these have been equally (mis)treated. The Yost by far is the least resistant to rust. Which isn't to say that you can't get the gun teflon finished, or finished in whatever hi-tec gun finish you like, but that would add $200+/- to the cost of the gun, and thereby take it out of the $1800 range of the other two. Of the other two, the Wilson has the most wear, but it's also the most outwardly abused. I am impressed at how the exposed metal under the worn finish does not rust. The Brown apears to display this same characteristic, but that finish appears to be wearing a bit fast for my tastes.

So for this portion:
Wilson 3
Brown 2
Yost 1

rob_s
01-06-07, 16:33
I prefer the overall look of the Brown to the other two. The basic black finish with the basic wood grips, lack of cocking serrations, lack of port-side slide markings, and the striking "chain mail" checkering make for a neat twist on an otherwise "classic" looking gun. My next preference would be for the Yost. The black grips on the stainless gun just looks damn functional. Last would be the Wilson. I know that you can order the Wilson in a variety of colors now, but when the CQB first came out it was introduced in black and green and that seems to be the color scheme most often associated with it. The slightly off black color of the stock grips just doesn't seem to fit either.

So for this portion:
Brown 3
Yost 2
Wilson 1

rob_s
01-06-07, 16:53
The overall profile of the slide stop on each of the pistols is identical. None of the three are recessed on the starboard side. As such, the only thing to judge them on is the surface treatment. The Yost is checkered while the Brown and Wilson are serrated. The Yost piece is, I think, one of their own so I don't believe it to be an issue of the stock Springfield piece just coming that way. I honestly don't have a preference either way; serrated or checkered. In theory the checkered part should cost more, so I'll call it advantage Yost. This leaves the Wilson and Brown tied. I think the Wilson part may be MIM (this is an older gun) which would make me prefer the Brown, but since the current CQB is de-MIMed I'll call it even.

Yost 3
Wilson 1
Brown 1

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/SlideStopBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/SlildeStopWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/SlideStopYost.jpg

rob_s
01-06-07, 17:04
None of the three come standard with the same front strap treatment. The Brown comes with a "chain link" pattern, the Wilson with standard 30 LPI checkering, and the Yost comes with standard 20 LPI serrations.

I was concerned with the Brown "chain link" when I ordered the pistol, but since receiving it and putting a couple thousand rounds through it, the pattern has really grown on me. It's grippy enough to help retain the pistol, but not so much so that it's uncomfortable.

My used Wilson has actually had some damage to the checkering. While I am not holding this against the Wilson (as it's not Wilson's fault someone abused the gun), I do think that it shows a bit of a weakness in the standard checkering. Wilson also checkers all the way down the front strap, which I dislike.

The Yost serrations feel good in the hand when I hold the pistol, but have proven to do little in retaining the pistol. The recoil force is up and back, and serrations that go in the same direction as the force are of little use. This particular example is also rather sharp as it came from Yost, making it even a bit uncomfortable. Additionally, this pattern appears to be the most inclined to trap debris (with the Brown being the least inclined) which aggrevates the rusting issue associated with the finish (see pic below). I think that I would prefer 20 LPI serrations to 30 LPI checkering if these issues were corrected (less sharp, better pistol finish), but as is it's the front strap I like the least.

Since each pistol has the same treatment on the MSH as they do on the front, the same critiques apply.

Brown 3
Wilson 2
Yost 1

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/FrontstrapBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/FrontstrapWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/FrontstrapYost.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/RearBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/RearWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/RearYost.jpg

rob_s
01-06-07, 17:08
Brown 12
Wilson 9
Yost 8

rob_s
01-06-07, 17:15
All three have a tritium vial front sight. Both the Yost and Brown are circled in white, while the Wilson is circled in silver. As a general sight, I much prefer those circled in white to those circled in silver, as the white is easier to pick up in the daytime. They all appear equal when viewed at night or in low-light.

All three are also beveled on the sides to match, to some degree, the curve of the slide top. I have heard, but have not checked to be sure, that the Wilson dovetail is not the same size as the others and is specific to Wilson. I dislike this as it makes it limits my ability to change the sight should I want to, or if the tritium were to become dull.

The Yost and Brown sights are so vitrually identical that it is impossible to tell them apart. The Yost sight does appear to be narrower, but in and of itself this is not an asset or a hinderance.

Front Sight
Brown 2
Yost 2
Wilson 1

Total
Brown 13
Wilson 10
Yost 10

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/FrontSightBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/FrontSightWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/FrontSightYost.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/FrontSight2Brown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/FrontSight2Wilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/FrontSight2Yost.jpg

rob_s
01-06-07, 17:25
Each pistol came with a different rear sight. The Brown uses a standard Novak, the Wilson uses their own design, as does the Yost.

I chose to skip the tritium rear on the Yost, but the Brown and Wilson both have two-dot tritium rears. They are outlined the same as the fronts; Brown white, Wilson silver (excuse the Brown pic, the flash came on). Had I opted for the tritium rear on the Yost it would have put it over the $1800 mark.

Viewed from the rear, I greatly prefer the serrations and non-busy sight picture of the Yost. I find it much less distracting than the weird recesses and angles of the other two. The Yost notch is also cut wider, which makes for quicker shots. I have heard some say that this affects long-range accuracy, but I'm not concerned with that kind of accuracy in a carry gun.

In profile (see the general pics in post one of the thread) I also prefer the Yost. The notch of the rear sight leaves a small shelf for use in one handed manipulation. The other two are so close in appearance in profile not to really matter.

Rear Sight
Brown 1
Wilson 1
Yost 3

Total
Brown 14
Wilson 11
Yost 13

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/RearSightBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/RearSightWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/RearSightYost.jpg

rob_s
01-06-07, 17:32
Each of the guns advertises a "beveled" mag well. I don't think that any of the three delivered what I was/am looking for. I would have liked to see the metal at the outside tapered to be much thinner, almost a knife edge. None of these has that, and I understand that it has to have some meat there otherwise it would become damaged. I am not a fan of extended mag wells, although adding one to any of these would be an option for others.

Of the three, the Wilson seems to be the best executed and the most functional. The Brown is too short and sharp, and the Yost is too long and gentle. The Wilson is also the only one of the three that addressed the rear. While it's no Chuck Rogers treatment (my absolute favorite that's out there), at least they broke the edge a bit.

Mag Well
Brown 1
Wilson 3
Yost 2

Totals
Brown 15
Wilson 14
Yost15

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MagwellBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MagwellWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MagwellYost.jpg

subzero
01-06-07, 20:11
Don't know if you're done yet, but I wanted to jump in and say this is a great thread, and a comparison that was long overdue. While the scoring is subjective, it's important for people shopping in this bracket of guns to see what each really has to offer.

For the section labeled slide stop, you may want to change that out to a more overall evaluation of all the fire control parts to include the magazine release, thumb safety, grip safety, hammer and trigger. I think it'd be good to consider the fire control parts as one package rather than pointing out the pluses and minues of one part and ignoring the rest of them.

I have to ask, why do you say you won't hold the frontstrap damage on the Wilson against it, but then turn right around and say it's a weakness?

cohiba
01-06-07, 21:17
Great review, even if you are done. Your price range seems to be the sweet spot for a good 1911. Not that it matters but I always liked Ed Brown pistols.

bullitt5172
01-06-07, 22:41
I have to say I'm glad your doing this. I have wanted a 1* for a while but after reading this and seeing the close-up photos I am not impressed. I have a new CQB and it's excellent. The fit and finish seems to be better than the 1* from what I have seen. Good review!

Oh ya, the new CQB's have a new design slide stop. It has a ledge, some like it and some don't. I really like the new design, much more user friendly.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l274/bglimpse/IMG_0499.jpg

rob_s
01-07-07, 06:58
You guys are right, I'm not done yet. I have alot more photos to get through.:D

rob_s
01-07-07, 07:00
I have to ask, why do you say you won't hold the frontstrap damage on the Wilson against it, but then turn right around and say it's a weakness?
What I meant was, I'm not grasping the Wilson and saying "oh wow, the grip on this is too slippery" when the only reason may be that there's a squashed section of checkering. I do think, however, that the fact that the checkering was able to be squashed indicates a weakness with that kind of treatment.

bullitt5172
01-07-07, 07:42
What I meant was, I'm not grasping the Wilson and saying "oh wow, the grip on this is too slippery" when the only reason may be that there's a squashed section of checkering. I do think, however, that the fact that the checkering was able to be squashed indicates a weakness with that kind of treatment.

While I see your point, without knowing what happened to the checkering there is no reason to think that the chainlink or serrations wouldn't suffer the same fate given the same abuse.

rob_s
01-07-07, 09:47
While I see your point, without knowing what happened to the checkering there is no reason to think that the chainlink or serrations wouldn't suffer the same fate given the same abuse.
I'm not really interested in debating the issue. It's just my impressions and thoughts on the three pistols. I do think, however, that the fine checkering is more prone to getting squashed because there's less material left behind. The "points" of the chain link and the serrations are beefier and would therefore be less prone to deformation. I think that even 25 or 20 LPI checkering would be more substantial. Quite frankly, the 30 LPI is so fine that it kind of seems pointless. I'd prefer that it was either smooth with no checkering or that the checkering had more bit. It just seems like 30 LPI is wasted effort and expense to me, but I know that alot of people really like it.

alias
01-07-07, 11:32
rob,
Great job! I know this must be time/effort intensive.
Will you continue for reliability ratings?
I'd love to see how they fare with difficult ammo.
:)

rob_s
01-07-07, 11:49
Will you continue for reliability ratings?

I was going to get to the reliability thing, as well as some other "intangibles" at the end. I am somewhat hampered by the fact that my Wilson is used though, so it's not really fair to compare it to the other two. I'm still kicking myself for going cheap at the last minute and buying this used one. I may yet break down and pick up a new one.

uranus
01-07-07, 17:10
Rob:

Should I send you one of my Les Baers to include in the comparison? (Please don't say yes, because I can't do it!) :D

BTW, thanks for the report. I have a WC CQB Compact. It's a nice pistol, but not my favorite. Looking forward to the comparison of a RRA with the others.

rob_s
01-08-07, 11:44
Unfortunately the picture of the Brown safety was taken after the other two, and was the only one engaged. Other than that the photos are essentially identical.

In general I prefer a blended thum safety. I have heard the argument in the past that this weakens the part, and it does. However for me it is a trade-off and it's worth the slight weakening to get a comfortable firing grip. With that said, I do think that it's possible to over-blend the safety and take away more material that is necessary.

The Wilson is the most contoured of the three, with the gentlest slope and the most material removed from the top of the safety. I would say that the Yost is second, with a little material removed from the top, and the Brown is last having virtually no material removed from the top. I find the Brown to be more than adequate in terms of comfort. In truth, they all feel about the same when I have a firing grip. Since I also think that the Brown is the strongest (having the most material), I prefer it to the other two. Following the same logic, the one with the most material removed, the Wilson, is last.

Thumb Safety
Brown 3
Wilson 1
Yost 2

Total
Brown 18
Wilson 15
Yost 17

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/SafetiesBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/SafetiesWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/SafetiesYost.jpg

rob_s
01-08-07, 11:53
See pics above and in "Front & Back Straps" post on page 1.

Grip safeties should be blended to the frame to make them as comfortable as possible when holding the pistol in a firing grip, and to ensure that they are engaged when one wishes to fire the pistol. Of the three, the Yost appears to have had the least blending. The pics above are of the grip safeties fully depressed, and you can see that the Yost part is blended the least of the three. There's also a pretty ugly gap between the safety and the tang.

The Brown piece, with it's "memory groove" bump feels the most solidly engaged of the three when firing. I don't know that the grooves provide any sort of tactile memory, but that's a non-issue for me.

This is really one of those parts that should be more heavily weighted. The gap in the Yost part, and the lesser amount of fitment REALLY bugs me. I don't know that either have any affect on function or not though.

Grip Safety
Brown 3
Wilson 2
Yost 1

Total
Brown 21
Wilson 17
Yost 18

rob_s
01-08-07, 12:00
I don't believe that extractors need to be "timed" (i.e. fit so tight that they can't rotate in the slide) for reliability and wouldn't want a gun that did require it, so the fact that all three show some degree of rotation in this part is a non-issue for me.

The only thing that really bears mentioning here is the large gap in the slide to ejector on the Yost gun. Like the gap in the grip safety, I do not know if this has any effect on reliability or function, but it bugs the hell out of me. I assume that when Y-B bought the Springfield (I didn't send them the gun) it came like that from the factory. The difference here is that I trusted them to go over the gun before they began work on it to check for things like this and they obviously didn't. Had I purchased the gun myself to send in I would have chosen another example, but Y-B proceeded to do $1300 +/- of work on a sub-standard gun.

The Brown and Wilson are even in my estimation.

This is another one that should be weighted more heavily, but again I do not know if it affect function and it does not appear to have done so to date.

Slide Rear
Brown 3
Wilson 3
Yost 1

Totals
Brown 21
Wilson 18
Yost 18

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/SlideRearBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/SlideRearWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/SlideRearYost.jpg

rob_s
01-08-07, 12:06
I tried to get a good picture of each with the slide on and the gun completely assembled because I don't think that the views below tell you much. The real test is how the two parts meet up when the gun is firing. I couldn't get the right amount of light down there the day I what photographing, so I may have to try again later. You're just going to have to make due with the pictures below and take my word for it.

When assembled, the Brown appears to have the smoothest fit of the three. Both the Yost and Wilson barrels appear to sit a little further forward when the gun is assembled than they do in the pictures below. If you went just off of the pictures below, I would say that the Yost appears to have the smoothest transition.

Barrel/Feedramp Fit
Brown 3
Wilson 2
Yost 1

Total
Brown 24
Wilson 20
Yost 19

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/RampBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/RampWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/RampYost.jpg

rob_s
01-08-07, 12:13
I don't know what the proper terminology for this part is, but I know that on stock Kimbers it pinches the hell out of me. It was a point (no pun intended) of concern for me when buying (sight unseen, mind you) each of these guns. In fairness, I got bit by the Brown shortly after buying it, and conveyed that to the Y-B folks and made sure they knew I wanted to be certain that these parts were relieved when I got their gun.

These pictures are probably not taken at the best angle for what I want to talk about, and one isn't even properly focused, but you can look at the front strap and mag well pictures also to get a better idea.

To put it bluntly, the Brown bit me so it loses on this one.:D In looking at all of the pictures, the Wilson is clearly the most rounded. The Yost has been relieved, and it hasn't bit me, but I think that the little bit of extra rounding on the Wilson is nice to have. Honestly, if I had my way, they would all be cut in a straight line like they are when an extended magwell is installed. It's distracting as hell when you catch the meat of your hand in there by mistake when performing a reload.

"Points" or "Horns"
Brown 1
Wilson 3
Yost 2

Total
Brown 25
Wilson 23
Yost 21

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/PointsBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/PointsWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/PointsYost.jpg

rob_s
01-08-07, 12:18
I prefer the crowning method of the Wilson barrel to that of the other two. I like the fact that it stops short of the outside of the barrel and leaves more meat there. The other two continue the crown all the way to the outside and I think that leaves it a bit weakened and prone to get dinged. Yost evidently at least makes an attempt to protect the barrel by what at first appears to be an almost recessed barrel crown. In fact, this is achieved by the thicker barrel bushing. I do like the fact that the bushing is beefed up, and I really couldn't care less if they achieve the near-recess by cutting down the barrel or extending the bushing.

The Brown bushing is the only one that appears to have been beveled at all, but I can't really figure out what this is supposed to accomplish so I didn't give it any consideration.

Muzzle & Bushing
Brown 1
Wilson 3
Yost 2

total
Brown 26
Wilson 26
Yost 23

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MuzzleBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MuzzleWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MuzzleYost.jpg

rob_s
01-08-07, 12:23
You can use the pictures below, as well as the ones above to judge the level of bevel for yourselves. I think that overall the Brown is the cleanest, most uniform, and most extensive, followed by the Wilson. The Yost is somewhat hit-or-miss when it comes the bevel, and is the shallowest of the three and the least consistent.

Bevel
Brown 3
Wilson 2
Yost 1

Total
Brown 29
Wilson 28
Yost 24

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/BevelBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/BevelWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/BevelYost.jpg

rob_s
01-08-07, 12:25
Brown and Wilson both use their own barrels, while the Yost maintains the stock Springfield part. This is pretty much a no-brainer to me. Brown vs. Wilson barrels is a debate I don't need to rehash.

Barrel
Brown 2
Wilson 2
Yost 1

Total
Brown 31
Wilson 30
Yost 25


http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/BarrelBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/BarrelWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/BarrelYost.jpg

rob_s
01-08-07, 12:32
Had you asked me before I got into 1911s, I would have told you that a lowered and flared ejection port was critical to the function of a good fighting 1911. Having now owned and fired these three, I'm not so sure. Both the Brown and Yost appear to function just fine with only the flare; the Wilson being the only one that's lowered. Because of this, I actually now prefer the non-lowered because (much like the thumb-safety post) I prefer more material when it's not necessary to remove it. Of the Yost and Brown, the "flare" on the Yost appears to be almost a tease. While it appears to be sufficient for function, it almost has that "why bother" look to it. It's so subtle, in fact, that I had to visit the Springfield Armory website (http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=15) to be certain that it wasn't a stock flare.

Ejection Port
Brown 3
Wilson 1
Yost 2

Total
Brown 34
Wilson 31
Yost 27

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/EjectionPortBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/EjectionPortWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/EjectionPortYost.jpg

rob_s
01-08-07, 12:36
Opposite to what happened with my belief in lowered ejection ports (which I did a 180 on), my belief in extended magazine release buttons has been confirmed. The Brown pistol has a standard GI profile button, and I dislike they way that I have to turn the gun in my hand just a little further to reach it. Of the two extended pieces, I find that the bevel of the Yost part is strangely easier to engage than that of the more square Wilson part.

Magazine Release
Brown 1
Wilson 2
Yost 3

Total
Brown 35
Wilson 33
Yost 30

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MagReleaseBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MagReleaseWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MagReleaseYost.jpg

Batt 57
01-08-07, 20:43
Rob,

Are all three of these yours??? If so,,,, WTF!!!

The last time I shot with you, you were ready to trash your 1911 and stick with the combat tupperware..... and now you have three 1911's??

I have always had a hard time reconciling a $1800 production 1911 when my Kimber has performed flawlessly ( and it was only $800). That being said, I have always lusted over a complete custom pistol like a Vickers or a Yam but could not see myself spending that kind of money.

rob_s
01-08-07, 21:17
I have always had a hard time reconciling a $1800 production 1911 when my Kimber has performed flawlessly ( and it was only $800). That being said, I have always lusted over a complete custom pistol like a Vickers or a Yam but could not see myself spending that kind of money.
I think that guns like the Wilson, Brown, Nighthawk, Baer, etc. fill a good niche in between the $3k+ true custom and the $500-$1k Kimber or Springfield. While they are production guns, they are higher end production guns and I believe there is a greater attention to detail with them. Anytime you want to shoot any of these just let me know.

rob_s
01-08-07, 21:18
Oh yeah, and yes they're all mine.:D Although when we get to the end of this review, at least one of them might not be mine for long.

bullitt5172
01-08-07, 22:34
Oh yeah, and yes they're all mine.:D Although when we get to the end of this review, at least one of them might not be mine for long.

Don't worry, that Yost should sell pretty easy :p

trio
01-09-07, 07:43
Not for nothing,

and I understand that these comparisons are your own subjective comparison, and i appreciate what you are doing......

but some of these things arent comparing apples to apples...

for example, the wilson and ed brown were both close to 2000 bucks (new at least)...whereas the yost is 1575 (per their website)....for an extra $255 you could have had a Kart NM barrel and bushing on the yobo...

this extra cost would have still brought the gun in cheaper than the other 2, and would have likely given it a better barrel than both....

just food for thought....

Akoni
01-09-07, 07:54
Instead of doing all this, knock off work & come meet us down at the Hmstd range this morning. Bring the 3 pistols and we'll do a bunch of drills with each. Call me if you're heading down.

rob_s
01-09-07, 08:29
Not for nothing,

and I understand that these comparisons are your own subjective comparison, and i appreciate what you are doing......

but some of these things arent comparing apples to apples...

for example, the wilson and ed brown were both close to 2000 bucks (new at least)...whereas the yost is 1575 (per their website)....for an extra $255 you could have had a Kart NM barrel and bushing on the yobo...

this extra cost would have still brought the gun in cheaper than the other 2, and would have likely given it a better barrel than both....

just food for thought....

Actually, no. I paid $1800 for the Brown NIB, Wilson CQBs can be had for $1800 NIB, and the Y-B gun as it sits in these pictures cost me $1800. I'll try to photograph the build sheet for the Y-B if you don't believe me.

trio
01-09-07, 12:36
Nope, I believe you, again I am not trying to be combative...i think what you are doing is really cool...

I know the "extras" on the yobos can add up...

I guess the thing that separated the semi-custom guns from the yobo for me was that I could take any number of characteristics I liked from those guns and combine them into a yost bonitz...

to use your example...I could take everything that the wilson scored a 3 for, and everything the ed brown scored a 3 for, and put them in one yost bonitz....

rob_s
01-09-07, 13:22
Nope, I believe you, again I am not trying to be combative...i think what you are doing is really cool...

I know the "extras" on the yobos can add up...

I guess the thing that separated the semi-custom guns from the yobo for me was that I could take any number of characteristics I liked from those guns and combine them into a yost bonitz...

to use your example...I could take everything that the wilson scored a 3 for, and everything the ed brown scored a 3 for, and put them in one yost bonitz....
Remind me to revisit this when I'm done with this monster. I don't want to reply until I'm done, but I do want to reply.:D

bullitt5172
01-09-07, 13:39
Nope, I believe you, again I am not trying to be combative...i think what you are doing is really cool...

I know the "extras" on the yobos can add up...

I guess the thing that separated the semi-custom guns from the yobo for me was that I could take any number of characteristics I liked from those guns and combine them into a yost bonitz...

to use your example...I could take everything that the wilson scored a 3 for, and everything the ed brown scored a 3 for, and put them in one yost bonitz....

But then it would cost considerably more and you still have the same basic pistol as the WC or EB or NHC or.....

Man, I don't know. After seeing the detailed photos and reading these posts I think I have lost a lot of faith in the Yost 1*. Seems to me they take a basic pistol and throw some parts at it. I guess I had my hopes up that even the base 1* was gonna be head and shoulders above the "semi-customs". I was expecting a lot more for the money when I began to research the 1*. I'm sure they are good pistols but after reading the review from Rob I am a lot more interested in the Ed Brown than I was.

I would like to see a future comparison with the RRA if Rob ends up getting one. Good job Rob, I'm waiting for the next segment :D

rob_s
01-09-07, 14:06
Good job Rob, I'm waiting for the next segment :D
Thank you, and me too!:D I'm off tonight to shoot the Wilson in a low-light match so it'll be tomorrow before I get another installment.

This whole process has been rather informative to me as well, as I'm writing it as I go, and using the pictures I took to help me to come to conclusions about the pistols. I know which one I prefer of the three, but I'll be interested to see if it "wins" in the scoring.

shark31
01-09-07, 16:00
I got to check out a Brown Special Forces today, and it felt like the action was rolling on microscopic teflon ball bearings, lol. Also, the overall fitment of the parts was hard to believe. I was going to send off my Colt to be Yobo'ed, but I think that I couldn't ask for more than what the Brown has to offer. I'm drooling just thinking about it. Rob, how's the reliability? Anyone want to buy a Colt for cheap???

STS
01-09-07, 21:54
The Yost is the "grittiest" feeling of the three. I do not believe that much was done as a part of the 1* package to address the slide-to-frame fit, and it feels in the way that the slide moves back and forth. It doesn't bind, but it's not exactly smooth either.

Unless you order the 1* Elite package, they do not do any frame fitting. You also have to remember that the gun was built up using a SA GI frame and slide, not on oversize frame and slide like the Bown or CQB. My old Yost and my Les Baer were totally different in feel. I think it would be more fair to compare the frame fit between the CQB and the Ed Brown.

I do know what you mean though when you say your Brown is super smooth. That is how my Les Baer feels. Granted it was so damn tight I could barely rack the slide when I got it - now it seems to be on ball bearings.

bullitt5172
01-10-07, 08:16
Unless you order the 1* Elite package, they do not do any frame fitting. You also have to remember that the gun was built up using a SA GI frame and slide, not on oversize frame and slide like the Bown or CQB. My old Yost and my Les Baer were totally different in feel. I think it would be more fair to compare the frame fit between the CQB and the Ed Brown.

I do know what you mean though when you say your Brown is super smooth. That is how my Les Baer feels. Granted it was so damn tight I could barely rack the slide when I got it - now it seems to be on ball bearings.

I would disagree with you and agree with Rob on this. They are all $1800ish pistols and should be compared on an even playing field. The Elite is more expensive and would be compared to more expensive EB's and WC's.

For the amount of money they charge for the 1* (base) package there should be more hand fitting done to the frame/slide.

rob_s
01-10-07, 08:32
bullit has it spot on. The issue here is what's available at a certain actual street price and how they stack up against each other. Nobody is giving out A's for effort or rewarding someone for starting down a tougher path. Yes, Y-B could have built the gun on a different frame and slide, but that would cost more than $1800 in almost every case.

I wanted, and still want, the best 1911 I can get for $1800; real world price. I don't know if one of these three is it or not, but I think that in comparing these three the photos speak for themselves in many cases. Hopefully in doing this photo-comparison and adding to it as time goes on, I can help other people make their own decisions about what is best for them.

I'm hoping to be able to sell-off the two "losers" in this comparison and pick up a couple examples from other manufactuers to add to it. RRA and Nighthawk being tops on my list of desired guns to work in here. I'm not sure that Nighthawk has anything that I can scrounge up for $1800 though.

bullitt5172
01-10-07, 08:37
bullit has it spot on. The issue here is what's available at a certain actual street price and how they stack up against each other. Nobody is giving out A's for effort or rewarding someone for starting down a tougher path. Yes, Y-B could have built the gun on a different frame and slide, but that would cost more than $1800 in almost every case.

I wanted, and still want, the best 1911 I can get for $1800; real world price. I don't know if one of these three is it or not, but I think that in comparing these three the photos speak for themselves in many cases. Hopefully in doing this photo-comparison and adding to it as time goes on, I can help other people make their own decisions about what is best for them.

I'm hoping to be able to sell-off the two "losers" in this comparison and pick up a couple examples from other manufactuers to add to it. RRA and Nighthawk being tops on my list of desired guns to work in here. I'm not sure that Nighthawk has anything that I can scrounge up for $1800 though.

NHC has been creeping up in price. When I bought the Talon I used to own, the Enforcer was comparable to a CQB but the street price was in the $1500 range. Now, the GRP (Enforcer replacement) goes for just over $2000 - minus the rail, laser grips etc that are available. I think that if you can find a RRA, they might be one of the better guns available in the price range. I would also consider the LB TRS as the best bang for the buck as well ;)

As always, waiting for more.......

M4Guru
01-10-07, 10:49
I'm a big Nighthawk fan, but the price is getting outrageous. They have crept up $500 in some cases, and I see the attention to detail slipping from the original guns (2 of my shooting partners own NH00026 and NH00057, I had NH00135) to some of the new ones folks have been bringing around. I hope they don't turn into another Wilson Combat.

I'd keep the YoBo, if for no other reason than where it came from.. You could always have the frame/slide fit tightened.

bullitt5172
01-10-07, 11:57
I'm a big Nighthawk fan, but the price is getting outrageous. They have crept up $500 in some cases, and I see the attention to detail slipping from the original guns (2 of my shooting partners own NH00026 and NH00057, I had NH00135) to some of the new ones folks have been bringing around. I hope they don't turn into another Wilson Combat.

I'd keep the YoBo, if for no other reason than where it came from.. You could always have the frame/slide fit tightened.

:confused:

I'm not seeing the point? Wilson makes a great 1911 with stellar customer service. So does Nighthawk so I guess I am missing something. I see no reason to keep the inferior 1911 (if that is the final verdict) because it says "Yost" on it.

M4Guru
01-10-07, 12:10
I've seen some piss-poor Wilsons. Two co-workers sent 1911s to Wilson to have them customized. The end result was apalling, it looked like some community-college gunsmithing students first project. Nasty checkering, nasty Armor-tuff coating, and they left in some of the stock parts that were paid to be replaced. On one of them, a Springfield 9mm, they didn't weld up the frame tangs, put on a grip safety, and left the gap. 1 gun was sold, the other headed to EGW for repair of the repairs:rolleyes: . FWIW, their production guns seem to have made a turn for the better, they had some rough times for a couple of years. There is a reason Nighthawk even exists.

A few days ago at the range, a teamate brings his shiney-new Scattergun 870 out, lets the first round fly....and right along with the round goes the rear ghost ring rear site. Not confidence inspiring. I'll pass on everything Wilson except mags. Spend your money where you wish.

I'd keep the Yost gun because on day there won't be any more Yost guns and it will be a good one for the collection, not so much based on the merits of it's performance. It's at least AS GOOD as any other out there for the price, and I like the fact that it's your custom gun, not an off-the-shelf 1911.

M4Guru
01-10-07, 12:38
For the record, I have a Wilson CQB somewhere in my stack of guns. I'm not anti-Wilson, but I won't put myself in the position that my buddies wound up in.

rob_s
01-10-07, 12:59
I should state that I am not in any way, shape, or form a collector and am not impressed by a name. If the Yost gun loses, it goes. I buy guns with a task in mind and either they fit that task or they don't. If they don't, they go.

rob_s
01-10-07, 13:00
Oh, and guys, please don't turn this into a pissing match. If ya'll want to fight about wilson, nighthawk, or whatever, please take it to PM or start another thread.

M4Guru
01-10-07, 16:49
I hope the Yost loses. Are you gonna sell it here?:D

rob_s
01-10-07, 19:32
alright, back on track...

I don't want a 1911 without a high cut front strap. I paid extra for it on the Yost as it's not standard with the 1* Enhanced. I found it interesting that all three guns have a distinctively different way that they cut the front strap. You can see it fron one angle in the pictures in the "Magazine Release" post and in profile below.

I have to say, I really don't know which one I like the best. Judging by the pictures alone, I like the Yost the best. It is nicely rounded and leaves the most material around the magazine release. It also feels VERY good in the hand. Second would be the Wilson, for having a similar rounding, and last would be the Brown.

High Cut Front Strap
Brown 1
Wilson 2
Yost 3

Total
Brown 36
Wilson 35
Yost 33

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/HighCutBrown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/HighCutWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/HighCutYost.jpg

rob_s
01-10-07, 19:43
I dislike wood on firearms, which gives the Yost an automatic advantage over the other two. I also dislike poorly done insets, which gives the Brown an edge over the Wilson. Also, as previously stated, the Yost does sit well in the hand and feels the thinnest of the three.

Interesting note. I pulled the grips on the Yost and the Brown to see if putting the grips of one made it feel like the other. It did. It appears that the Yost grips are not as wide as the Brown grips, but are very nearly identical in thickness. I would not have thought that the width of the grips would affect the feel of the overall thickness of the pistol, but it obviously does. I tried another set of polymer/micarta/whatever grips on the Brown as well and found that they felt the same. Sure enough, they were the same width as the Yost grips.

Another interesting note; none of the grip bushings are staked. I guess nobody does this anymore. In removing the Brown grips for the little experiment above, one of the bushings came out. Good thing I have spares. I think I'm going to invest in a bushing staking tool as well.

Grips
Brown 2
Wilson 1
Yost 3

Total
Brown 38
Wilson 36
Yost 36

(refer to pictures previously posted)

rob_s
01-10-07, 19:57
I would greatly prefer a pistol with no slide markings at all. I missed the boat on the Rock Rivers back before they marked their slides, so now I prefer minimal markings. This is entirely an aesthetic thing, but it's also a matter of not wanting to seem to "poseur"ish. I'm not "Special Forces", I don't engage in "CQB", and while I suppose I do only have "one-ass-to-risk", I don't do it on a daily basis and try to avoid doing so whenever possible. I don't know if these guys are naming these things to try to market them or what. Of course, "skinny-ass over-educated project manager" probably takes up too much room on the slide anyway.

So, who has the least markings? Brown, by far. While the name annoys me, the script is subtle, and it's only on one side of the slide, and that side is the ejection port side. Very well done. If you have to mark the slide, this is the way to do it. Also, I have been told that you can order the Special Forces without the name on the slide which is especially cool. Had I known that when I bought mine I would have gotten it that way.

Wilson is next, with a very subtle "CQB" on the ejection port side. Unfortunately they had to screw it up by puttin "Wilson Combat" in giant letters on the other side.

The Yost is the most marked, largely because Springfield made the gun and put their markings on it, and then Yost worked on the gun and put his markings on it. Yost would have omitted the markings if I wanted them to, but because of the following I'm kind of glad I kept them. Virtually every 1* pistol I've seen has been marked "Yost-Bonitz Custom" on the starboard side dust cover (see example here (http://yost-bonitz.com/bigphoto/photos/1asterisk-enhanced/enhanced1.jpg/large)). Mine is marked only "Yost Custom", and from what Jason Burton at Yost-Bonitz has told me, it's because Ted himself built it. More on that later.

The Yost also has all of the stock Springfield markings. I won't comment on them too much, except to say that Springfield marks their guns in way too many places and with way too little attention to detail. Yes, it's a production gun, but it would be nice if they could press the serial number in with an even pressure (see pics below).

Markings
Brown 3
Wilson 2
Yost 1

Total
Brown 41
Wilson 38
Yost 37

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MarkingsModel2Brown.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MarkingsSerialBrown.jpg


http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MarkingsModelWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MarkingsSerialWilson.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MarkingsMakerWilson.jpg


http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MarkingsMakerYost.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MarkingsSerialYost.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MarkingsMakerYostSmith.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MarkingsModelYost.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/1911%20Comparison/MarkingsModel1Yost.jpg

rob_s
01-10-07, 20:00
I'll save discussion of trigger pulls to the "intagibles" at the end. For now we're talking strictly hardware. For some reason, I dislike the "speed trigger" holes and am glad to see alot of the custom 'smiths going to the solid triggers. I just think that something could get caught in those holes, yet they don't serve any purpose. So with that in mind, the Yost wins hands down. The other two are similar enough to tie for 3rd.

Trigger Hardware
Brown 1
Wilson 1
Yost 3

Total
Brown 42
Wilson 39
Yost 39

rob_s
01-10-07, 20:05
And so that's pretty much it in terms of the hardware. While I realize that there are alot of other parts on the guns, at the end of the day most of them are so close to identical that they don't really even bear mentioning. If there's some part that you want to hear about in particular, please let me know and I'll try to take pics and/or give my thoughts.

What will follow from here are "intangibles". Things that are entirely personal and impossible to back up with pictures. This will include things like trigger pull, felt recoil, customer service impressions, magazines included with the gun, etc. I'm open to any questions regarding these issues as well as suggestions for specific "intagibles" to compare. I am going to have to put off this portion of the review until next week though as I have to get ready to leave town for SHOT. Hopefully none of the makers of these guns have been reading along and taken offense. If they have, I'll be the guy in the Tactical Yellow Visor, and they (or any of you for that matter) are welcome to come up and say hello.:D

I wonder if I can get banned from SHOT.....:eek:

STS
01-10-07, 22:59
Interesting review so far - thanks for taking the time and all the pictures.

SethB
01-11-07, 19:40
I don't care to read the whole thread, since I'm sitting on a pay terminal in Central America, but I will say that Yost guns have more hand fitting than the other two combined. What details are attended to are much better cared for than with semi customs. You may not get a slide fit for 1800, but at least the beavertail is done right.

Besides, I'd get a Nowlin barrel before I sprang for a slide fit.

Oh, wait--- I did. ;)

bullitt5172
01-11-07, 19:48
I don't care to read the whole thread, since I'm sitting on a pay terminal in Central America, but I will say that Yost guns have more hand fitting than the other two combined. What details are attended to are much better cared for than with semi customs. You may not get a slide fit for 1800, but at least the beavertail is done right.

Besides, I'd get a Nowlin barrel before I sprang for a slide fit.

Oh, wait--- I did. ;)

Maybe you should read it, Rob does a good job talking about the fit and your opinion isn't correct.

SethB
01-12-07, 15:06
Aight, I went through and read the thread. I'll point out that a lot of how the pistol is built is entirely subjective. The mag well, the rounding of the point at the front of the mag well and the bevel were all meant to be subtle. The barrels are retained when they are one piece barrel, and considered to be sufficiently accurate. In fact, this particular pistol is incredibly accurate; I've seen the test group.

As for the beavertail, the gap is something that comes with the parts, it can be tightened in some cases. That requires peening and refitting; getting that level of fit takes a lot of work.

As for the assertion that there was the least amount of blending? Ted fits the top of the tail in the up, for when there is no pressure on the grip safety, and the bottom down so there are no sharp edges when you are shooting. If you don't like it, don't buy a pistol from him. I don't like it, except for the fact that it is his style, and one of the easiest ways to tell his work from someone else's.

But I digress. Carry on.

John Fettes
01-12-07, 19:17
I have considered a higher (for me) end 1911 so I found the comments here very interesting and enlightening.

I wonder where the Springfield Professional would fit into this group?

John

trio
01-12-07, 20:47
ive owned a springfield professional, a rock river arms pro carry, a les baer stinger, a baer TRS, an ed brown Kobra, and an ed brown Kobra carry...


as well as a yost bonitz 1*


of that group, the only one i still have is the yobo


take from that what you will...

John Fettes
01-13-07, 10:57
...of that group, the only one i still have is the yobo...

Thanks. Is your gun on a par with the one shown here in re the work done?

John

trio
01-13-07, 11:09
I would say it is...there are some differences...

I like the more "retro" look on a 1911 so I went with the 1* package so I dont have a beavertail...

I went with the EGW match bushing...I think the lockup of the barrel is as tight as i have seen

I did not have the slide fitted to the frame...I did a lot of research, and found a lot of people in the know (like Larry Vickers) that espouse the idea that slide to frame fit is one of the least important factors in accuracy (less than 10%)...so I figured it wasnt worth the extra money for me...

I am not an expert shooter, certainly, but I was more accurate consistently with my Yost than with my ed brown kobra carry (granted, its a longer barrel) and it was easily on par with the others...

Please dont get me wrong, all of the others were fantastic guns...financially, though, it wasnt practical for me to own them all...so given the opportunity to keep just one, I decided on the yost bonitz

John Fettes
01-13-07, 11:42
...financially, though, it wasnt practical for me to own them all...so given the opportunity to keep just one, I decided on the yost bonitz

I understand, I think that I might only own one of them myself in this price range.

I have heard from several folks that the fit of the barrel to the slide and frame is the main key to accuracy.

Thanks to all for posting!

John

rob_s
01-16-07, 20:47
Well, now that SHOT is over, I can finish up my report I suppose. I think I'm pretty much done with the scoring, and all that's left to do is report on some general impressions.

I don't believe that I can fairly comment on the reliability of the Wilson as compared to the other two since I bought it used. I will say though that I have had no problems with it.

Of the other two, only the Brown has been 100% reliable since I received it. The Yost gun had quite a few malfunctions in the first 200 rounds. I have not made it back to the range to fire that much ammo in one sitting with it again, but it has made it through several IDPA matches since then. I have never had any malfunction of any kind with the Brown.

I spoke to Ted himself when I called to complain about the initial malfunctions. He appeared to be somewhat disbelieving at first, and said that I should use the ACT/Novak mags that they shipped with the gun. Eventually he did offer to pay for return shipping for me to send the pistol back, but I declined since I wanted to shoot it some more and see if it fixed itself. Time will tell as I shoot it more.

I have heard horror stories about dealing with Ed Brown's customer service, but since my gun runs 100% I have not had to deal with them. Personally, I'd rather have a gun that runs and crappy customer service than one that doesn't and the best customer service in the world.

On a positive note, the Wilson appears to both run great AND come with great customer service. I spoke with the guys from Wilson for quite awhile at SHOT and was very impressed with their attitude. When I told them about the used CQB I have, they told me to send it in for some warranty work on the safety and they would pick up the shipping. They suggested that while it was there I have them take a look at the crushed checkering and refinish the frame. They seemed to think that they could fix the checkering, or at least clean it up. Nice guys to talk to and great customer service. I'm not sure if I'll take them up on it, as I'm not sure I'm going to keep the gun, but it was a very good offer from them.

SethB
01-16-07, 21:34
I'm as surprised as Ted. Interesting.

Resq47
01-16-07, 21:52
I have heard horror stories about dealing with Ed Brown's customer service, but since my gun runs 100% I have not had to deal with them. Personally, I'd rather have a gun that runs and crappy customer service than one that doesn't and the best customer service in the world.


I'm with you there. I get leery of seeing a lot of feedback about great CS. For example, I assume Aimpoint has a CS department but I really wouldn't know ;)

rob_s
01-17-07, 05:24
What all of this ultimately comes down to for me is bang for the buck. Even if the Yost gun was just as reliable, just as accurate, just as comfortable in the hand, etc., it still has a gritty feel to the slide, gaps in the grip safety, a gap in the ejector, a much less durable finish, a lower quality barrel, etc. For my money, if I can get the same performance in a high-end production gun as I can get in a low-end semi-custom PLUS the production gun is just better put together and nicer looking, I'll take the production gun. I just don't see what the Yost gun has going for it that the other two don't, and I see a whole lot that the other two do have going for them that the Yost gun doesn't.

My personal favorite of the 3 is the Ed Brown. As you can tell from the review, it's not the absolute best in all categories, but I think it's the best "bang for the buck" of the three listed.

I got a chance at SHOT to check out Nighthawk, Rock River Arms, and Les Baer, and I am interested in adding a GRP, Basic Carry, and Thunder Ranch to the review.

Anyone want to buy a slightly dented Wilson or a slightly rusted Yost?:D

rob_s
01-17-07, 05:44
At the bottom of the Y-B info (http://yost-bonitz.com/info/) page is the following:

It seems popular these days to voice any dissatisfaction with a product or service in public internet forums. If you present a problem to us, and we are unable to satisfy you, have at it. If however, you post negatively on a public forum prior to advising us that you are dissatisfied, enjoy your 15 minutes of fame, as we will not speak again.

I do not know if this review puts me in that category. I do not know if anyone from Y-B has seen it yet. I will be posting this on the 191forum.com shortly though, and I believe that some of them read that forum.

I understand their policy, as every manufacturer and vendor makes mistakes, and every manufacturer and vendor deserves the chance to correct those mistakes before being publicly crucified. However the above quote comes across to me as a bit of an attempt to quell dissention and bad press. Someone may be dissatisfied but is afraid to voice that dissatisfaction because they're afraid that they will be SOL if they do.

Personally I do not believe that this review falls into the category of "posting negatively on a public forum". I have simply compared and contrasted 3 individual samples of 3 models from 3 makers. I have complained about each one at some points and praised each one at other points. If I had in fact sent the Y-B back to them and asked to see if they could address some of my concerns, that would be somewhat of an unfair advantage over the other two.

rob_s
01-17-07, 05:59
The Y-B "won" in the following categories:
Slide Stop
Front Sight (tie with Brown)
Rear Sight
Magazine Release
High Cut Front Strap
Grips
Trigger Hardware

The Wilson "won" in the following categories:
Finish
Magazine Well Bevel
Slide Rear (tie with Brown)
Front Strap "points"
Muzzle & Bushing
Barrel (tie with Brown)


The Brown "won" in the following categories:
Slide to Frame Fit
Overall Aesthetics
Front and Backstrap Treatment
Front Sight (tie with Yost)
Thumb Safety
Grip Safety
Slide Rear (tie with Wilson)
Barrel/Feedramp Fit
Bevel or "Dehorn"
Barrel (tie with Wilson)
Ejection Port
Markings

Obiwan
01-17-07, 07:10
"every manufacturer and vendor makes mistakes"

Truer words were never spoken.....and paying $2,000+ for the pistol does not change that

bullitt5172
01-17-07, 07:40
Great review Rob, and I believe it is just that. I don't think that Y-B would have a problem. They are talking about the blatent attacks on companies that so many jump right into.

I'm debating on one right now, do I get a Thunder Ranch, SA Professional or the Special Forces. After getting you input I went and looked at the EB last night. Great piece, very well executed. The one in the case has been handled so if I go that route I will order one, without the Special Forces as you reminded me via PM. I think in the end, I will get the LB TRS now and the EB at a later date.

Thanks for taking the time to write this.

Bryan

rob_s
01-17-07, 08:43
Too bad you don't live closer, bullit, as you could save me the trouble of buying a TRS to add to the review.

Once I sell off the two, I think I'll probably go with the TRS and RRA first and see what I can track down on good prices on those. Getting the Nighthawk down to the $1800 retail point is going to be very hard. The best I've been able to do so far is $1900 on a Talon III, and then I have to pay shipping to boot.

bullitt5172
01-17-07, 09:28
Too bad you don't live closer, bullit, as you could save me the trouble of buying a TRS to add to the review.

Once I sell off the two, I think I'll probably go with the TRS and RRA first and see what I can track down on good prices on those. Getting the Nighthawk down to the $1800 retail point is going to be very hard. The best I've been able to do so far is $1900 on a Talon III, and then I have to pay shipping to boot.

I have a local dealer with a TRS for $1669 and Sporting Arms has one for $1619 +$35 for shipping. Take the extra $200 from the TRS and put it in the NHC :D The TRS does seem to be best deal in the price range. Hard to beat at ~$1600. I can take the other $200 and put a decent rear sight and have it E-Treated.

rob_s
01-18-07, 20:45
Well, I fed it to the sharks, and right out of the gate one comes out to circle.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=163213

bullitt5172
01-18-07, 20:48
Well, I fed it to the sharks, and right out of the gate one comes out to circle.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=163213

That's why I am spending more time here :D

Greenbean
01-19-07, 08:03
Great review, You took a lot of time "during" and then "after" in the way of posting the pictures and stuff. I used to post a lot in a Honda/Acura forum and man the pictures were the most time consuming. And of course spelling for me though...lol...
I appreciate your work. And I haven't gotten a 1911 yet but have a chance at a SA TRP from a family member for a great deal. Less then 600 rounds through it and it was my first "Virgin" 1911 outing back on Thanksgiving of 2006.
Your review makes me really wish there was more of a market for nice 1911, "custom" I mean in the area I live in. I could drive to Charlotte but then again it's not like custom guns just sit in cases like Kimbers and such for month after month. Anyway...I apreciate your work and am looking forward to a Nighthawk/Rock River/LB review like this one. :)
Keep up the good work!

VA_Dinger
01-19-07, 08:13
Did anybody read the SWAT magazine article on the Ed Brown "Special Forces"?

How can you buy and then write an article on this particular pistol and THEN flame it for being named "Special Forces"? The author (Michael Tan) could have purchased any one of the other fifteen or so Ed Brown models an it would not have been an issue. I think it's silly anyways, but to complain about so many times in the article is a joke. It seems it’s getting fashionable to flame pistols nowadays. I guess they feel this makes them look more qualified when they find something to bitch about. Regardless if it’s a legitimate problem or not.

Greenbean
01-19-07, 08:28
Did anybody read the SWAT magazine article on the Ed Brown "Special Forces"?

I picked it up and thumbed through it and was going to get it b/c of that article and then started to read the article:( and put it down and walked away...

rob_s
01-19-07, 09:17
Did anybody read the SWAT magazine article on the Ed Brown "Special Forces"?

How can you buy and then write and article on this particular pistol and THEN flame it for being named "Special Forces"? The author (Michael Tan) could have purchased any one of the other fifteen or so Ed Brown models an it would not have been an issue. I think it's silly anyways, but to complain about so many times in the article is a joke. It seems it’s getting fashionable to flame pistols nowadays. I guess they feel this makes them look more qualified when they find something to bitch about. Regardless if it’s a legitimate problem or not.

I don't like the name. With that said, it doesn't keep me from buying it and shooting the hell out of it and enjoying it.

I drive a GTO. Alot of people don't like that this car is called a GTO. It doesn't keep me from buying it, driving the hell out of it, and enjoying it.

I always say, they could call it the "pink bunny slippers model" for all I care.

R Moran
01-21-07, 03:30
Well, I fed it to the sharks, and right out of the gate one comes out to circle.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=163213

You should see what I went thru, a few times, when I told them a Colt Ar was better the A,B,D,R, etc.

Pat, had to extract me once.

Bob

carshooter
01-21-07, 11:02
Rob,

Excellent review with great pictures to illustrate your points.

I will add that I have been conducting my own personal review of similar models over the last couple of years.

I've been around the block a couple of times with $2000 1911's. I currently own a Wilson Protector (it has enough range time that it's been refinished once), a Wilson CQB, an Ed Brown Cobra and a Les Baer Concept.

I've had several other similar guns, including a Thunder Ranch.

IMHO, on a high use gun the warantee and customer service does carry some serious weight. If the gun in question is going to be a safe queen, then service may not matter. However, if you intend to shoot it much, it will require maintenance and you'll avail yourself of the manufacturer's customer service eventually.

For instance, average barrel life of a match grade 1911 barrel is in the neighborhood of 25K rounds of hardball. (Plated bullet or cast lead loads are easier on the barrels and cause less wear and you'll probably acheive 3 times the life or so) I've been shooting primarily Rainier plated bullets and currently have about 35K through my Protector alone. I'd estimate that I'm a little better than half way through it's barrel life.

In my experience, service through Wilson is very reasonable and they often replace worn parts at their actual cost. I have a shooting buddy who had his CQB overhauled at 80K rounds. Wilson replaced the barrel, several other worn small parts and refinished the gun for a total cost of $250.

My 2 cents...........

jmart
01-21-07, 11:31
Did anybody read the SWAT magazine article on the Ed Brown "Special Forces"?

How can you buy and then write an article on this particular pistol and THEN flame it for being named "Special Forces"? The author (Michael Tan) could have purchased any one of the other fifteen or so Ed Brown models an it would not have been an issue. I think it's silly anyways, but to complain about so many times in the article is a joke. It seems it’s getting fashionable to flame pistols nowadays. I guess they feel this makes them look more qualified when they find something to bitch about. Regardless if it’s a legitimate problem or not.

Yes, I did, and the author was only commenting on the names used for pistols. Just like X-Treme labels, tactcial labels, etc.

Now here are the guts of his gripes with the weapon, none of which have anything to do with what name was stamped on to the slide.

"When it arrived it didn't work. The hammer wouldn't cock when the slide reciprocated and the trigger was depressed". Resolution: Sent back to EB who promptly replaced teh disconnector and everything was corrected.

Then when he went to shooting the pistol, it didn't work with a variety of mags -- brand new Chip McCormick Powermags, Wilson 47 (7 rounders), Wilson 47D (8 rounders) and new McCormick Powermag mag tubes fitted with Tripp Research springs and metal skirted followers. The problem noted was reliably chambering the last round in each of these mags. Also noted, with either Wilson mag, the slide would not lock back.

Resolution: The problem was corrected after sourcing additional Ed Brown mags which use the Metalform full metal-skirted follower. These can be had in either a removable or welded baseplate design (the author made the point that the gun was equipped with a single mag with a welded baseplate but along the way the welds popped and dumped the guts of the mag during firing).

I certainly know from the AR world that mags are a big component for reliability. But just about any new GI mag or C-Products or HK mag will run fine. I'm not 1911 savvy by any stretch, but are Chip McCormick and Wilson mags considered poor quality? I always assumed those folks were well repected within the 1911 community. With respect to mag sensitivity, does anyone consider this account to be a "hyper sensitive" issue or is this acceptable?

John Fettes
01-24-07, 21:25
The review here was heads & shoulders above any review I have read in any of the gunzines.

I too have almost purchased a magazine based on a story on a certain weapon but put it back after taking a closer look. Sad to say, I don't always take a close look before paying for the magazine. I need to do better.

John

Business_Casual
01-24-07, 22:14
I don't like the name.

Can you imagine what a dork I felt like when LAV asked to see my copy in a class? Talk about feeling like a poser.

M_P

TREE
01-26-07, 13:18
Can you imagine what a dork I felt like when LAV asked to see my copy in a class? Talk about feeling like a poser.

M_P

Yikes. I imagine I would have done a spontaneous Ralph Cramdon impression, "Hamana-hamana-hamana..."


I'm glad to see this write up. Hopefully this will lead to more comparison posts with pictures for emphasis.

Halvis
01-05-08, 20:52
I joined the site just to thank you Rob! Hate to bring up a very old thread, but I found it via search engine. I love 1911's, and had finally decided to buy a "custom high $" one. Was considering Brown, Wilson, Baer and Springfield custom. I had pretty much got to Wilson CQB vs. Brown SF before I found your review...

Your pictures are great, and I found myself agreeing with your take on the pistols on a point by point basis. About that time I came across an Ed Brown SF, pre-owned, unfired post factory, safequeen at a very reasonable price and snapped it up! If I was going to order one of the EB SF's, it would be no script on slide, 4.25 Commander length, bobtail, and no holes drilled in trigger... but thats besides the point. I LOVE my EB SF!

Again Rob S., Thank You for this review. Thanks to search engines, it remains "helpful" to this day.

Robb Jensen
01-05-08, 21:23
Can you imagine what a dork I felt like when LAV asked to see my copy in a class? Talk about feeling like a poser.

M_P

Eric, brother I thought you were SF.............

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/grywlf.jpg

SHIVAN
01-05-08, 22:30
Ed Brown now, or has always, offered the "Special Forces" model without the name on the slide.

shark31
01-05-08, 22:33
I have one without the script, the finest 1911 I have ever shot.

toddackerman
01-06-08, 10:47
At the bottom of the Y-B info (http://yost-bonitz.com/info/) page is the following:


I do not know if this review puts me in that category. I do not know if anyone from Y-B has seen it yet. I will be posting this on the 191forum.com shortly though, and I believe that some of them read that forum.

I understand their policy, as every manufacturer and vendor makes mistakes, and every manufacturer and vendor deserves the chance to correct those mistakes before being publicly crucified. However the above quote comes across to me as a bit of an attempt to quell dissention and bad press. Someone may be dissatisfied but is afraid to voice that dissatisfaction because they're afraid that they will be SOL if they do.

Well...if they'd put out a quality piece, they wouldn't have to have a disclaimer like this. Totally unacceptable in my mind. If I want to exercise my constitutional rights of speech and expression, I'll Damn well do it, and they will Damn well support their products... regardless even if it ends up in court. This alone will keep me from dealing with Yost.

Rob...Thanks for all the effort on this thread. I know it took a lot of hours, and I'm thankful to you.

rob_s
01-06-08, 10:57
Wow, this got dredged up from about a year ago.

In that time, I've not shot the Wilson at all (still trying to sell it actually), and devoted most of my shooting to the YB actually. This is due to a couple of factors.

1) The YB trigger, without the adjustment hole, is the easiest on the finger. The adjustment hole on standard 1911 triggers can be smoothed out, but it's a step that's unnecessary on a trigger without the hole. I have a 10-8 trigger to replace the stock EB with but haven't found anyone that I trust to work on it and that can do it quickly. No, I don't like monkeying with 1911 fire-control parts at home.

2) The sights are the easiest to pick up. I've since replaced the Ed Brown rear with a 10-8 rear and it's improved it tremendously. I would still prefer a white-outline tritium front over any other front sight.

3) And the biggest reason the YB gets shot more than the EB: I replaced the stock recoil spring with a lighter one for my reloads. The end result is that the YB has become my training/competing gun and the EB has become my carry gun. The EB finish also stands up better to neglect (meaning sitting in a holster for weeks on end) than the bead-blasted stainless of the YB. No, it's not a big deal to change out recoil springs, but if you have two guns you don't have to.

So, what would I do if I was starting today, after all I have learned monkeying with all these guns? Frankly I'd buy a pair of Wilson CQBs, with one being a compact aluminum frame and the other being a fullsize with light rail. Why? Because YB doesn't exist anymore and I don't believe that the new company is doing "budget" guns, EB seems to be populated by a huge contingency of pricks, and Wilson has the models/features I want with the customer service and longevity to back it up.

I still prefer the EB, with the two tweaks mentioned above, over the others (as well as over other makes/models I've had the opportunity to shoot in the past year), but there's more to buying a gun IMHO than the gun itself.

If Wilson will install a different rear sight for me I may well wind up going that route. That is, if I don't just scrap all this expensive steel for cheap plastic. :D

SCULLY
01-06-08, 11:26
Great write up, i see "BANNED" under your name on the 1911forum with the link to this write up (http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=163213 ) , hope it wasnt due to this comparison post. Thanks

rob_s
01-06-08, 12:49
No, I was banned under one name a couple of years ago, did the next logical thing and re-registered under a new name :D , and then was re-banned again. They're not happy over there unless they're banning people, and I'm happy to oblige. :D

SuicideHz
01-06-08, 14:07
No, I was banned under one name a couple of years ago, did the next logical thing and re-registered under a new name :D , and then was re-banned again. They're not happy over there unless they're banning people, and I'm happy to oblige. :D

Yeah, John ROCKS!

shark31
01-06-08, 15:13
Rob,
Did you have any POI shift when you replaced the rear sight? I've already replaced the EB trigger with the 10-8 and have the sight on the way.

rob_s
01-06-08, 16:40
Rob,
Did you have any POI shift when you replaced the rear sight? I've already replaced the EB trigger with the 10-8 and have the sight on the way.

Not that my sad attempt at pistol-shooting would reveal. :eek:

Ed L.
01-06-08, 20:03
Then when he went to shooting the pistol, it didn't work with a variety of mags -- brand new Chip McCormick Powermags, Wilson 47 (7 rounders), Wilson 47D (8 rounders) and new McCormick Powermag mag tubes fitted with Tripp Research springs and metal skirted followers. The problem noted was reliably chambering the last round in each of these mags. Also noted, with either Wilson mag, the slide would not lock back.

Resolution: The problem was corrected after sourcing additional Ed Brown mags which use the Metalform full metal-skirted follower. These can be had in either a removable or welded baseplate design (the author made the point that the gun was equipped with a single mag with a welded baseplate but along the way the welds popped and dumped the guts of the mag during firing).

Wow! I was considering selling a few guns and buying an Ed Brown Special Forces. However if the gun will only work reliably with one type of 1911 Mag, it is a no-go.

I have seen some 1911s that don't work reliably with one particular brand of magazine, but work fine with several brands. But a 1911 that will only work reliably with one brand? No way, for me, unless that is the only 1911 that you own and the only brand of magazines that you will be buying.

toddackerman
01-10-08, 22:03
Wow! I was considering selling a few guns and buying an Ed Brown Special Forces. However if the gun will only work reliably with one type of 1911 Mag, it is a no-go.

I have seen some 1911s that don't work reliably with one particular brand of magazine, but work fine with several brands. But a 1911 that will only work reliably with one brand? No way, for me, unless that is the only 1911 that you own and the only brand of magazines that you will be buying.

I would wager that the Tripp 8 Round Gen II Cobra Mag would work. Best spring, tube,and follower that I have ever seen in 30 years. I have shot the rest, and recently tested, and continue to test the Cobra Mag. YMMV

www.trippresearch.com

Ed L.
01-11-08, 01:56
From the passage I quoted Jmart said that he tried "new McCormick Powermag mag tubes fitted with Tripp Research springs and metal skirted followers." These have the same followers as the Tripp 8 Round Gen II Cobra Mag.

It sounds like the Ed Brown gun in question only worked with Brown mags.

rob_s
01-11-08, 07:25
FWIW, I haven't had any problems with mags in my Ed Brown that don't also cause problems in my 1* and my CQB. All of my problem mags have been Wilson 47Ds.

toddackerman
01-11-08, 07:55
From the passage I quoted Jmart said that he tried "new McCormick Powermag mag tubes fitted with Tripp Research springs and metal skirted followers." These have the same followers as the Tripp 8 Round Gen II Cobra Mag.

It sounds like the Ed Brown gun in question only worked with Brown mags.

My point being that the Tripp Cobra Mag has a different tube than the McCormick Mag, and hence is a different Mag., and not the Ed Brown Mag. So now you have 2 choices that might work.

shark31
01-11-08, 08:29
I had trouble with my 47Ds when I first started shooting my Special Forces. After 200 or so rounds the bearing surface between the slide stop and plunger tube detent smoothed out and the slide now locks back on 47Ds, Colt GI mags, Ed Brown mags, and the new Wilson ETM mags.

carshooter
01-11-08, 10:18
As a point of reference, I run Wilson 47D's in an Ed Brown Kobra with no issues.

STS
01-11-08, 15:02
Where are you at round count wise with the SF and Yost?

rob_s
01-11-08, 15:39
That's a good question, and frankly I have no idea. I gave up on round counting for any of my guns shortly after I wrote the original posts. I just lost interest in it. I know that some people have a round-count maintenance schedule for their guns but I don't anymore.

STS
01-11-08, 20:21
Fair enough. I kept track of my round counts on one 1911 untill a little past 11k, then I just stopped. I don't track any of them anymore, I'd rather just worry about training.

Steelshooter
01-17-08, 18:18
As much as I love 1911's and have been issued and owned them for 30+ years this article is a good example of why I don't bother with them anymore. I guess I don't love them enough.

mpardun
01-17-08, 22:26
I would wager that the Tripp 8 Round Gen II Cobra Mag would work. Best spring, tube,and follower that I have ever seen in 30 years. I have shot the rest, and recently tested, and continue to test the Cobra Mag. YMMV

www.trippresearch.com


...Have all functioned flawlessly in all 5 Ed Brown I have owned. Cobras are my current favorite, but Browns my Browns love them all!

Steelshooter
01-19-08, 12:35
I may have to eat my words. i just looked at a Wilson CQB the other day and Loved It. Haven't had a Wilson in quite a while. The price is out of control at $2249 though. I'm checking with Sporting Arms to see what they can offer me.


As much as I love 1911's and have been issued and owned them for 30+ years this article is a good example of why I don't bother with them anymore. I guess I don't love them enough.

bullitt5172
01-19-08, 12:52
I may have to eat my words. i just looked at a Wilson CQB the other day and Loved It. Haven't had a Wilson in quite a while. The price is out of control at $2249 though. I'm checking with Sporting Arms to see what they can offer me.

Seems high but Wilsons are priced pretty well for what you get. NHC's are a little more $$, Ed Browns and Les Baers are a little less $$. The $2000 range is the sweet spot for the 1911. You get the most for your money at this range.

rob_s
01-19-08, 12:53
I may have to eat my words. i just looked at a Wilson CQB the other day and Loved It. Haven't had a Wilson in quite a while. The price is out of control at $2249 though. I'm checking with Sporting Arms to see what they can offer me.

If I was buying new today, sight unseen, I'd choose the CQB. Many dealers can get you much better deals than "list".

Steelshooter
01-19-08, 13:01
I have a few (OK 4) Les Baer TRS' and have never paid more than $1699. The CQB is available at Bud's gun Shop for $1970. They also have the railed version for $100 more but I've lost interest in rails on 1911's. I'm also looking for prices on Nighthawk 10-8's although I think Nighthawks are even more overpriced than Wilson. I had a few CQB's 6 or seven years ago and they were problematic but i understand they are better now. The one I looked at sure is nice.