How would you spec out a dedicated AR for CQB?

[Hawkeye]

I'm just curious how you would set up or how have you set up a dedicated CQB AR. I have my own ideas, but I'm just curious how others would go about it given the various choice on the market now.
10.5/11.5/12" 5.56? 12" 6.8? Standard FS or fire breathing pig? etc..........

[rob_s]

My definition of CQB, for my purposes, is anything inside my house. I want it short (to easily maneuver) light (in case I need to hold it with one hand) and simple (so that it functions when I reach for it).

Right now I'm still building up one of my 6933s into a "house gun". It's more or less done, I just need to mount the DD 9.0 FSB. I haven't mounted it yet because I haven't yet chosen what, to me, is the most important piece of equipment for inside my house, the suppressor.

I also haven't chosen the light for it yet. I think I only need 6v for inside the house, and I think that 9v could prove to be too much bouncing off a white wall. Whatever I choose will be thumb activated with no wires etc.

Other than that it's pretty standard, TD grips, Vltor stock, Aimpoint sight in a Larue mount, etc.

I'll make my final choices on the can and light at SHOT next week... wow, THIS week... and then I'll be done.

[M4Guru]

Since "CQB" is a dynamic, changing environment (IE not just inside a house...urban movement, alleyways, houses, rooftops, etc) I would prefer:

1. A reliable carbine. HK416, LMT 10.5, BCM 10.5, or Noveske 12.5. I use a Colt M4 14.5 with a KAC MRE...cause it was free. I also have a Noveske 11.5 upper I use. I like the LMT buttstock as well, but thats really a personal preference.

2. Light. I use a Surefire M600 with a Larue throw lever. Some folks would rather have a bigger incandescent light, which is cool too. I don't like the weight.

3. Optics. There are a lot of options out there, but I would prefer a 1-4X variable. The Short Dot is the obvious answer, but the Nightforce is good as well as the Trijicon TR21R if you're on a budget. Larue mounts are the only option.

4. Sling. Blueforce VCAS is my choiceby far, but a Viking/larue sling is a good option a well if that's what you prefer. The two-point makes the best sense to me.

[Damon]

M4G,

Have you looked at the Leupold 1.5-5 variable that Larue sells as a scope/mount package on their website? I know Nightforce and S&B are top choices, but nobody discusses the Leupold. Does that mean they are out of the running?

[M4Guru]

Actually, I have one in a Larue SPR 1.93 on my personal gun. The SPR reticle is awesome. I got the MR/T model with the illuminated reticle and tactical adjustment turrets. I highly recommend it for a recce rifle or SPR, but for fighting inside a house the reticle is a little too busy and the 1.5 magnification is a little too much. It would work, but it's not the best option. Still, it's the best scope I think I ever bought. It just would be my first choice for CQB.

[Derek_Connor]

Since "CQB" is a dynamic, changing environment (IE not just inside a house...urban movement, alleyways, houses, rooftops, etc) I would prefer:

1. A reliable carbine. HK416, LMT 10.5, BCM 10.5, or Noveske 12.5. I use a Colt M4 14.5 with a KAC MRE...cause it was free. I also have a Noveske 11.5 upper I use. I like the LMT buttstock as well, but thats really a personal preference.

2. Light. I use a Surefire M600 with a Larue throw lever. Some folks would rather have a bigger incandescent light, which is cool too. I don't like the weight.

3. Optics. There are a lot of options out there, but I would prefer a 1-4X variable. The Short Dot is the obvious answer, but the Nightforce is good as well as the Trijicon TR21R if you're on a budget. Larue mounts are the only option.

4. Sling. Blueforce VCAS is my choiceby far, but a Viking/larue sling is a good option a well if that's what you prefer. The two-point makes the best sense to me.


That is exactly the route I went, almost word for word earlier this fall:

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/8425/receiptforconnorderek8ncr3.th.jpg (http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=receiptforconnorderek8ncr3.jpg)

Its a little on the heavy side, but throwing my aimpoint back on there instead of the K-Dot helps out considerably

[jmart]

Why the scope over an Aimpoint or EoTech? Seems to me the scope fills a more Generela Purpose role, with the ability to perfrom CQB, but not optimized for that role. Just seems to me the wide FOV dot optics are much better suited for that role.

[rob_s]

Why the scope over an Aimpoint or EoTech? Seems to me the scope fills a more Generela Purpose role, with the ability to perfrom CQB, but not optimized for that role. Just seems to me the wide FOV dot optics are much better suited for that role.
I agree. As I was reading the description I asked myself "what would I do with 4x in a 'CQB' situation?"

As usual, I think that everyone has to define what CQB means to them. As I said, CQB to me is inside my house. This means all shots would be inside of 50', and even if the need to shoot out from the house presented itself that would only require a shot up to 50 yards. I don't envision any house-to-house MOUT scenarios in my personal range of use. Even if I did, I am not really clear on what I would use 4x for.

[M4Guru]

The Short Dot was designed to address the issues with a fixed 1X optic such as an EOTech or Aimpoint that will arise in a military scenario. Holding a rooftop, moving down alleys, hitting a dry hole and having to move 3 blocks to the right target, etc. CQB begins with movement up to a target and ends when I get home. I have only one rifle to do this with for my purposes.

For civilian use or SWAT where the likelihood of moving from building to building are unlikely the EOTech or Aimpoint is more than adequate. There is no doubt in my mind that a 1x dot optic is better than a 1-4x scope on it's 1X setting, but I like the option of having the magnification and that outweighs the negatives for me.

[Dport]

To me CQB is inside a structure and is a subset of MOUT.

The problem with debates like this is the lack of a standardized definition of terms.

It's like "handgun stopping power."

[Paulinski]

My CQB

LMT 10.5 Upper with Noveske pig;) , Stag Lower DD 12.0 FSP rail, Magpul Maid, TD Vert Grip, Magpul CTR, Pentagon Light. Eotech 512 on Larue Mount

I still need a sling and BUIS

We are not allowed suppressors:rolleyes: in communist Kanada so I had to go for the next best thing the KX3.

Paul

[M4Guru]

I am thinking in terms of a completely hostile environment. For police, where the neighbors stay out of the fight for the most part or a civilian who is defending his home from an intruder most of what I said about optics would not apply.

If you use a 1X dot optic, I prefer the Aimpoint. I really like the Eotech, but I've blown up a lot of them. They don't like the extreme heat coming off of the barrel nut/delta ring after about 500 rounds fired in rapid succession. The Larue mount helps this issue alot, though.

[K.L. Davis]

This may be what M4Guru is saying, but CQB means different things to different folks... I mean there is MOUT, FISH, CQB...

If you are doing VBSS, close quarters takes on a whole new meaning and having to doff your gear to get through a scuttle or inspection plate sort of opens your eyes to how little room there may be.

I think the OP is talkng FISH?

If so, then I would lean towards a reduced cartridge gun (300 Whisper) with a very effective suppressor set up, aimpoint, white/IR illum and a fixed short stock.

[Dport]

If you are doing VBSS, close quarters takes on a whole new meaning and having to doff your gear to get through a scuttle or inspection plate sort of opens your eyes to how little room there may be.
A little story. I was on a cargo dhow somewhere in the Northern Arabian Gulf. I decided to accompany a USCG boarding team member while conducting an initial safety sweep, just to make sure the boat wouldn't sink as we were sitting there. Sure enough, because we stopped the damn thing it was leaking like a sieve. Pumps were keeping up, but barely. And there I was stuck between the diesel engine and hull unable to move thanks to the stupid vest the Navy dictated. Not a moment of panic, but a moment of concern for sure.

Anyway to answer Hawkeye's question, if you're talking about home defense, I'd get the shortest barrel I could, a collapsing stock, a flashlight and a reflex type sight of your choice. Keep it small, simple and reliable. JMHO.

[USMC03]

2. Light. I use a Surefire M600 with a Larue throw lever. Some folks would rather have a bigger incandescent light, which is cool too. I don't like the weight.

I couldn't agree with you more. I had Surefire Millinium 9 volt lights on a work gun that had the heavier profile Colt M4 SOCOM barrel and the Short Dot (which is a very heavy optic). This adversely effected the weight and balance of the gun. I replace the 9 volt Millinium with the Surefire Scout on a LaRue mount and it made a world of difference in both the weight and the balance.




I am thinking in terms of a completely hostile environment. For police, where the neighbors stay out of the fight for the most part or a civilian who is defending his home from an intruder most of what I said about optics would not apply.



M4Guru,



What you said about optics is spot on, even in a LEO enviornment. For LEO's a low powered variable optic is a very desireable tool. Bad guys are not static, they move. When dealing with criminals things change often and they change quickly.

Times where a low powered variable optic is beneficial to LEO: Often times we hit a house and end up chasing a guy (down alley ways, etc). A vehicle assault goes mobile. You need to identify what is in the hand of a barricaded gunman from 100+ yards away. Active shooter scenerio (take a look at distances in your loacal school, WalMart Supercenter, large parking lots, etc) Overwatch on a VIP detail, etc.

This is copied from a post that I wrote about 6 months ago on why I chose the S&B Short Dot:


Over the years I have been in search of the "perfect" optic.

In a SWAT setting 75% of the missions are CQB and the other 25% can range from permiter work, to overwatch on a VIP detail, to searching large warehouses or schools, etc.

SWAT missions can often be dynamic in nature. One minute you can find yourself on a permiter trying to see if the barricaded gunman standing in the window has a gun or a cell phone in his hand, and the next minute you're being picked up as part of the entry team. On other missions you may find yourself sitting across a large parking lot covering a buy / bust operation, the bad guy goes mobile and now your part of a vehicle take down.

In short there are times where an electronic red dot rules the day and other times where a magnified optic is more desirable.

I have tried magnifiers, a few variable powered optics, etc, etc, etc. I had issues with everything that I tried.

A couple requirements that I have in any optic that I use for duty:

-Lit reticle that can be seen in bright day light (this knocked out some optics like the MR/T M2 1.5-5)

-Very little distortion on the lowest power (this knocked out most optics that had the lowest setting at 1.25x and higher)

-Have close to the same speed with the optic as I did an Aimpoint.

I have tried most of what is on the market and after doing much research I settled on the S&B Short Dot and after training with it for the last month I'm very satisfied with it:

Not perfect, but damn close (pics of S&B Short Dot)






S/F
Jeff

[Hawkeye]

OK, let me re-ask, with some defined parameters.

How would you spec out/set up a carbine that would be primarily an indoor weapon, with a MAXIMUM, but probably rarely seen, range of 50 yards.
What would you go with between 5.56 and 6.8?
What barrel length?
Etc.....

[M4Guru]

Noveske 12.5 in 6.8 with fixed FSB an Larue rail, X200 or Scout light, Aimpoint ML3, and a Vickers sling, then.

[rob_s]

Noveske 12.5 in 6.8 with fixed FSB an Larue rail, X200 or Scout light, Aimpoint ML3, and a Vickers sling, then.
I'd do the same for the most part, but I'd stick with 5.56 and add a cut down carry handle rear sight. Oh, and I'd stick a suppressor, or at least the pig, on the end of the barrel.

[M4Guru]

My 11.5 (5.56) wears LMT fixed front and rear sights. I like a standard FSB best for it's durability, but I have the Vltor/Noveske pinned 17-4 block and it is sturdy as well.

I use a KAC can, cause it was free. It's a POS in my opinion...great technology 15 years ago but has been far surpassed now.

[Jay Cunningham]

I have a dedicated "home defense" carbine - I suppose an argument could be made that it's a subset of CQB...

Anyway, I envision the scenario as follows:

occuring at night or in low-light
events rapidly unfolding
groggy, possibly startled awake, adrenaline pumping
grab and go
engagement ranges would probably be quite short
target identification highest priority


I chose a stock Colt Sporter Lightweight because it is the simplest, lightest configuration which has the desirable features that I want. Lightweight "pencil" barrel with A2 flash hider and extended feed ramps with 1:7 twist, iron sights, mag release fence, very low weight.


I have modified it to suit my needs as follows:

fixed Sully Stock to replace the receiver extension and CAR stock
simple MI front sight tower pic rail
Surefire 200B on support side
XS Sights tritium stripe front and same plane aperture rear
straight 20 rd. magazines w/ 18 rds. 75 gr. Hornady TAP ammunition
Wilderness 2 pt. sling/carry strap

I feel that the home defense carbine must be as simple as possible, it must have a light which can fill a typical room, it must have tritum night sights (or a red dot optic), it must have a simple sling and it must be handy and maneuverable.

[jmart]

I have a dedicated "home defense" carbine - I suppose an argument could be made that it's a subset of CQB...

Anyway, I envision the scenario as follows:

occuring at night or in low-light
events rapidly unfolding
groggy, possibly startled awake, adrenaline pumping
grab and go
engagement ranges would probably be quite short
target identification highest priority


I chose a stock Colt Sporter Lightweight because it is the simplest, lightest configuration which has the desirable features that I want. Lightweight "pencil" barrel with A2 flash hider and extended feed ramps with 1:7 twist, iron sights, mag release fence, very low weight.


I have modified it to suit my needs as follows:

fixed Sully Stock to replace the receiver extension and CAR stock
simple MI front sight tower pic rail
Surefire 200B on support side
XS Sights tritium stripe front and same plane aperture rear
straight 20 rd. magazines w/ 18 rds. 75 gr. Hornady TAP ammunition
Wilderness 2 pt. sling/carry strap

I feel that the home defense carbine must be as simple as possible, it must have a light which can fill a typical room, it must have tritum night sights (or a red dot optic), it must have a simple sling and it must be handy and maneuverable.

This makes a lot of sense.