Soldiers in Iraq learning to use guns

[FJB]

Soldiers in Iraq learning to use guns... what seems for the first time.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ab60662ad6

This video clip is not even humorous, it is criminal. The leadership that permits soldiers to deploy with such piss poor firearms training should be held criminally negligent of their duties. I don't blame these soldiers per se, I blame their leadership. The excuse by some that say "well they'll never leave a FOB" or some such non-sense is also B.S. Every soldier, Marine, sailor, airman is a warrior and should be trained as a warrior to include how to properly fight with their firearms as it only contributes to a truly confident and disciplined fighting force vice a force of amaturers with inadequate training with false self-esteem pumped up their a$$.

Unfortunately those who do fight for proper training get labelled and marked for destruction by parochial a$$ clowns "protecting their turf." I hope they can sleep at night knowing good kids poorly trained probably died because of their actions.

S/F

[Hawkeye]

:eek: Did those two even go through Basic Training? That is beyond rediculous. My Drill Sgt's would have had a coronary. Of course, I had two older CIB tabbed ones that were like the Army version of Gunny Hartman....:D They made life hell, but I'd hug them now if I could.

[ST911]

With that, my worst shooters suddenly don't seem so bad after all.

[JBar]

That is the result of only sending your support soldiers to the range once a year to "qualify" with their weapon because you don't have the budget to purchase the overpriced ammo. When we deployed to Somalia this serious lack of training among support units was discovered and the level of training was intensified prior to follow-on troups being deployed. There is no excuse for this five years into a war. God's speed.

Jbar

[deadwood83]

Ouch... that is just sad. The one kneeling looked like the bolt was open most of the time... I can't figure out how he managed to do that. This is just... wow.

[FJB]

Both seemed to have problems with Type I malfunctions (failure to feed) and my guess is an under lubed rifle. Both Pat and Larry will tell you that underlubing is worse than over lubing. The right amount of lube applied at the right locations (ie. where you have metal to metal contact, shiney worn surfaces on your bolt carrier group is your first clue) is the correct answer.

Unfortunately these soldiers "don't know what they don't know" and their leadership is criminally negligent for "not wanting to know what they don't know" thus believing that whatever firearms training the Army (or pick your service) provides is good enough. Average/Amature training like this is not good enough. Good enough gets people killed. Only Excellent or Outstanding is acceptable. I have several friends who once belonged to a "unit" that is the best trained and funded org in the military and even they sought outside firearms training on their own time and dime.

Sadly there is OIF predeployment training funds available for COs to use to bring in top shelf trainers like Pat and Larry to properly prepare their lads and lasses, but very few do it. The rest are more concerned about how their stock options or golf handicap. I could continue on this rant but I better stop.

S/F

[KiloSierra]

That is the result of only sending your support soldiers to the range once a year to "qualify" with their weapon because you don't have the budget to purchase the overpriced ammo.

Jbar

Don't forget the "I know how to shoot and don't need to practice" attitude some have. When I was in college a guy in one of my classes was a sergeant in a reserve transport company and a Desert Storm vet. He once remarked that they taught him to shoot in basic and he really didn't see why they kept waisting money on ammo and having them practice and qualify regularly. That was in the summer of 2002, and his company deployed a few months later. I know he survived, but I wonder if he still thinks that.

[Alpha Sierra]

Wow................:confused:

[55Kingpin]

That is horrible.

There is NO excuse. Trigger finger discipline is something that should be ingrained in one's brain housing group.

Proper lubrication is simple and easy to learn.

I don't know who gets the blame, but somebody deserves a foot in their rectal cavity! Especially if there are funds available for training...

-55

[KevinB]

You see it everyday here -- its not a "only" occurance. The problem is outside of specialized units very few know there is a higher level (or in some cases a safe standard) of skill.

I think the avg US Infantry soldier is a wandering disaster with fireams -- and unofrtunately they are a shinning star when it comes to the service support folk. I feel badly for them - since the majority just dont know, and have no source for training. The Chain of Command is criminal negligent. IMHO at the very least Group 18B's should be farmed out to run predeployment weapons training.

Gone are the days of the American Rifleman I fear.

[Dport]

What is interesting is Navy personnel deploying to support the Army must complete safety and familiarization training prior to showing up to Army training centers, and then they must qualify on Army ranges before deploying. This is in addition to any Navy training, bootcamp, yearly firearms qualifications, semi-annual familiarizations they had in the Navy. And do you know what?

There are some that still look like monkeys ****ing a football. If I could send all my Sailors to train with Mr. Vickers and Mr. Rodgers, I would. However, there would still be a good number who wouldn't get it.

[Harv]

Originally Posted by JBar
That is the result of only sending your support soldiers to the range once a year to "qualify" with their weapon because you don't have the budget to purchase the overpriced ammo.

There is your answer right there... that and a big leadership gap at the NCO level.

The term Pouge was created for a reason... this is an example.

I Ran enough small arms ranges in my career to know that this does not shock me at all.
Anyone ever spent an afternoon on the M16 range trying to get a bunch of male and female Medics to qualify with there M16's???. And watch them struggle to do something basic like apply a BZO??? or confirm a BZO without using 500 rds each...



After watching this.. it should clearly explain how the whole Jessica Lynch Convoy debacle unfolded and how everyone raced to field a new Issued weapon that you don't need to clean.

Just goes to show you.. just cause someone served in the Mil does not make them a small arms expert ,except on the internet.....;)

[Treehopr]

There is your answer right there... that and a big leadership gap at the NCO level.

The term Pouge was created for a reason... this is an example.

I Ran enough small arms ranges in my career to know that this does not shock me at all.
Anyone ever spent an afternoon on the M16 range trying to get a bunch of male and female Medics to qualify with there M16's???. And watch them struggle to do something basic like apply a BZO??? or confirm a BZO without using 500 rds each...



After watching this.. it should clearly explain how the whole Jessica Lynch Convoy debacle unfolded and how everyone raced to field a new Issued weapon that you don't need to clean.

Just goes to show you.. just cause someone served in the Mil does not make them a small arms expert ,except on the internet.....;)

A few points:

Overpriced ammo? .gov and .mil customers probably get the best price of anybody- they get to buy in bulk and tax free :D

And not having enough in the budget is usually over the head of those attempting to implement the training. I know of no unit that has ever said they had too much ammo or too much money in their budget. I have been in units where they hoarded everything until the end of the fiscal year and sent everybody out in September to shoot it all off with no redeeming training value so they would get the same amount budgeted for the next year :rolleyes:

Re: Medics- yes I have. I've also had to load an M16 for an E6 because she couldn't figure out how to do it prior to our LD for a convoy to the green zone. Lack of training in weapons goes beyond just putting rounds on target- I'd be happy with muzzle discipline and keeping the finger off the trigger.

Part of it is the trainee but I think part of it is who conducts the training. This is not directed against anyone but the easiest thing for a poor instructor to do is blame the student. I've been on ranges where it was pretty obvious the person doing the training was there because somebody else had to get rid of them- so instead of screwing up a squad or platoon they get to screw up the whole battalion. I've never been to an M16 range where they didn't beat SPORTS to death. Why? Because it's all the instructor knows and it's the only thing in his lesson plan. If all you have is a hammer than all your problems look like nails...

Re: the convoy- I think a lot of people on the internet make an issue of the weapons maintenance as if perfectly cleaned and lubed weapons would've resulted in a different outcome. IMO- if the convoy commander had spent more time on route selection/land nav and made better decisions before being ambushed it would've done a lot more than any amount of CLP would have. Note that most of the WO/NCO's were taken out of the fight in the initial attack. I think any unit would have a hard time with a convoy ambush at night against a numerically superior force while behind enemy lines. IIRC- there were 2 silver stars awarded for that action. Clearly there were some soldiers in the convoy who were able to overcome their equipment/training shortcomings.

I agree with the other posts regarding the annual qualification. It would be better if the annual spent more time on such things as marsksmanship. Then add a predeployment prep class for non-standard weapons familiarization and tactics.

FJB- thanks for posting the link to the video- good discussion.

[METT-T]

There is no excuse for this five years into a war.

Jbar

I say that more and more lately.

Seems to me that the Army-and the rest of DoD-suffered greatly during the 1990's. You can knock the culture out of an Army real quick but it takes a good long while to build it back up.

Of course, what the hell do I know, it's probably always been this bad.