View Full Version : Steps to SBR with Trust?
Considering jumping into NFA by building an SBR. Been doing some reading and think I have the general idea. Still a little foggy on some of it.
When I make the trust do I enter the lower into the trust then apply for NFA stamp? Do I enter the serial number?
Is this correct:
1. Make trust and enter lower I want to build SBR with.
2. Get it singed by witnesses and notarized.
3. Fill out Form 1 and sent to ATF with $200 and copy of Trust.
4. Wait
5. While waiting might as well have lower engraved with trust name "Rojas NFA
Trust" or "Toys for BIG boys Trust" or whatever my trust name will be.
6. Once approved attach upper to lower and GRIN.
7. Keep Copy of approved form 1 with SBR at all time (heck make extra copies to keep in wallet, car, home... just in case).
8. All original paperwork such as Form one and Trust get put away in a safe place.
9. Enjoy and be safe!
sound about right?
One more thing, I was name the trust my "full name" NFA Trust. But "Johnny Doe NFA Trust" seem qiute long for engraving. But having you name in the Trust title my make it easier to prove you are allowed to poses the SBR in the trust. What did you guys do?
Thanks,
A. Rojas
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-17-09, 14:16
About at the same step, looking to do a suppressor first. Does the name of the trust have to include the word "NFA"?
About at the same step, looking to do a suppressor first. Does the name of the trust have to include the word "NFA"?
No, it doesn't. Not sure if you have to have the word "Trust" in the name though.
I found this useful, others may also:
http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=107341
RetreatHell
05-19-09, 01:51
Okay, I just recently got into the NFA world myself and just last week got my Form 4 back and also a Form 1... here is what I did from beginning to end, which you may find useful (or not):
1-I ordered a suppressor from my Class III FFL dealer/friend. Once it arrived, he helped me fill out the Form 4 (leaving a few spaces blank, where I needed to write in the name of my yet-to-be-created Living Trust).
2-I went to a lawyer who specializes, among many other things, in NFA law and routinely does Trusts just for guys wanting NFA items. He charged me $350, which is pretty damn steep for that service in my opinion, but I only need to do it ONCE and want it done flawlessly, so I feel that in the end it was money well spent.
ALSO NOTE that my lawyer STRONGLY ADVISED AGAINST naming my trust something like, "Paul's Gun Trust," or "Paul's Firearms Trust." He said that, while not "illegal" by ANY means, naming your Living Trust with "guns" or "NFA" or Machine Guns" or "Firearms" in the name will make it VERY obvious to both BATFE and the NFA Branch of BATFE, and all law enforcement agencies in general, that you are only creating the Living Trust strictly for the procurement of Class III/NFA Firearms, and nothing else. He said that if, God forbid, you ever went to court or were ever in a situation where you had to defend yourself in anything even remotely resembling the law, that it just wouldn't look too good for you or your character if your Living Trust was named in such a direct and obvious way.
But you can name it whatever you like. An exact example of the name of my trust, if my name was Bob Darrel Smith, is: "The B.D. Smith Trust." Which whenever you engrave your lower receiver you would engrave it like this: "The B.D. Smith Trust, Memphis, TN"
3-My lawyer helped me fill out my Form 1 and helped me finish filling out my Form 4 that I had already started, and then we put two signed copies of each, along with a copy of my newly-created and notarized Living Trust and also a check for $200, inside a large manilla envelope and I then went to the post office and mailed the two envelopes to the NFA branch using Certified Mail.
4-While I was waiting, I found an AWESOME NFA engraver just an hour away from my house in Houston and mailed off my partially stripped (meaning I only took off the furniture but not the internals) lower receiver. He had an amazing turn-around of only an hour and a half and I received my lower back in the mail (via UPS Ground) two days after I originally shipped it to him.
5-I waited for three months.
6-I received my Approved Form 4 and Form 1 last week. Now it's time to have some fun, as I deserve it after my "hard" work!!!
I think I included pretty much everything. Note that you have to have a serial number of the NFA item you are applying to own before you can mail off your Form 1 or 4, because you have to write it down on the Form 1 or 4 in the space that asks for the weapon's serial number. However, you do not need a serial number for the trust itself... I think that was one of your questions, if I remember correctly.
All in all it's pretty damn easy to do everything you need to do. Just take it one step at a time and before you know it you'll be shooting your new toy at the range and women will be throwing themselves at you just hoping that you'll sleep with them!! It's great being an NFA weapon owner, as the perks are awesome!!!!!
****Note that those last two things I said were a complete lie and WILL NOT happen. However, NFA items can cause nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, insomnia, melanoma, divorce, heartburn and erectile disfunction(ED). Use at your own risk****:D:D
-Paul
Thanks for the reply... That was helpful, thank you.
7. Keep Copy of approved form 1 with SBR at all time (heck make extra copies to keep in wallet, car, home... just in case).
I don't think there is any legal requirement to do so. Most people, however, do this to prevent prolonging any contact with anyone with the authority to ask you about your weapons.
Thanks for the information. I'm planning on setting up a trust this year and I've been researching what's necessary.
Between what RetreatHell posted above and this link:
http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=107341
I think most of us will be off to a good start.
Mr.Goodtimes
05-20-09, 13:41
However, NFA items can cause nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, insomnia, melanoma, divorce, heartburn and erectile disfunction(ED). Use at your own risk****:D:D
-Paul
NFA items always kinda make me pitch a tent? but then again, the local gun shop is full of beautiful women and im 20 so... mabey its not the nfa items.... mabey it is.... more then likely, its both.
im looking into setting up a trust with my father however, and were gonna go NFA shopping :)
Question for RetreatHell, you mentioned finding an engraver in the Houston area.
I live in Houston and would love to know who this engraver is if you don't mind PM'ing the info.
It would be greatly appreciated.
exkc135driver
05-22-09, 01:32
There have been many, many posts in this subforum along the lines of, “I don’t need no stinkin’ lawyer to form my NFA gun trust … I can make a trust with the $10 book I bought at an office supply store that is just a good as one made by one o’ them stinkin’ lawyers.”
For those of you who haven’t yet formed a trust (or a corporation, which may a better alternative in some jurisdictions), here is why you hire a stinkin’ lawyer:
ALSO NOTE that my lawyer STRONGLY ADVISED AGAINST naming my trust something like, "Paul's Gun Trust," or "Paul's Firearms Trust." He said that, while not "illegal" by ANY means, naming your Living Trust with "guns" or "NFA" or Machine Guns" or "Firearms" in the name will make it VERY obvious to both BATFE and the NFA Branch of BATFE, and all law enforcement agencies in general, that you are only creating the Living Trust strictly for the procurement of Class III/NFA Firearms, and nothing else. He said that if, God forbid, you ever went to court or were ever in a situation where you had to defend yourself in anything even remotely resembling the law, that it just wouldn't look too good for you or your character if your Living Trust was named in such a direct and obvious way.
Does the $10 book on how to form an el cheapo trust tell you this?
What else does the $10 book not tell you?
No, but the el cheapo NFA dealer that I purchased my suppressor had actually mentioned it.
There have been many, many posts in this subforum along the lines of, “I don’t need no stinkin’ lawyer to form my NFA gun trust … I can make a trust with the $10 book I bought at an office supply store that is just a good as one made by one o’ them stinkin’ lawyers.”
For those of you who haven’t yet formed a trust (or a corporation, which may a better alternative in some jurisdictions), here is why you hire a stinkin’ lawyer:
Does the $10 book on how to form an el cheapo trust tell you this?
What else does the $10 book not tell you?
2-I went to a lawyer who specializes, among many other things, in NFA law and routinely does Trusts just for guys wanting NFA items. He charged me $350, which is pretty damn steep for that service in my opinion, but I only need to do it ONCE and want it done flawlessly, so I feel that in the end it was money well spent.
Doesn't sound like an unreasonable fee to me.
ALSO NOTE that my lawyer STRONGLY ADVISED AGAINST naming my trust something like, "Paul's Gun Trust," or "Paul's Firearms Trust." He said that, while not "illegal" by ANY means, naming your Living Trust with "guns" or "NFA" or Machine Guns" or "Firearms" in the name will make it VERY obvious to both BATFE and the NFA Branch of BATFE, and all law enforcement agencies in general, that you are only creating the Living Trust strictly for the procurement of Class III/NFA Firearms, and nothing else. He said that if, God forbid, you ever went to court or were ever in a situation where you had to defend yourself in anything even remotely resembling the law, that it just wouldn't look too good for you or your character if your Living Trust was named in such a direct and obvious way.
I disagree that this matters at all. The entity is just as valid or invalid regardless of its name, and if somebody wants to go after you for using it "solely" for holding NFA items, there are much better ways for them to do that than the name. All they'd need is the property schedule that shows you have nothing but guns in it, regardless of what its called. It would also be much more effective, if you're concerned about this, to put some other assets into it (like $10 in cash) to show that it's not "just" guns.
I also see no reason why it's "wrong" or "suspicious" to create a trust solely to hold and direct the disposition of a particular class of assets. People do that all the time in other areas of estate planning.
I also see no reason why it's "wrong" or "suspicious" to create a trust solely to hold and direct the disposition of a particular class of assets. People do that all the time in other areas of estate planning.
Exactly. That concern belongs in the tin foil hat section of ARFcom.
Question: It may vary by locale, but are Trusts on file with the state somehow? Are they public info, that could be searched and looked for? If it I think it's a very, VERY minor concern -- but more legit than the other one -- that someone could search for "gun trusts" and attempt to use that info to plan robberies.
It may not work that way at all -- I work with right-of-way agents a lot and we often have to track down the landowners who hold property through a trust, but we find them through the land records and I don't know if there's a way to find the trusts otherwise.
Question: It may vary by locale, but are Trusts on file with the state somehow?
I think it depends on the state you live in. It's not the case in AZ.
I was told that the general rule is Trust information is not on file in most states which is one of the reasons that it was recommended over an LLC, Corp., etc.... In my situation the only people that know about mine is the dealer, BATFE and the person who notarized it.
Question: It may vary by locale, but are Trusts on file with the state somehow? Are they public info, that could be searched and looked for? If it I think it's a very, VERY minor concern -- but more legit than the other one -- that someone could search for "gun trusts" and attempt to use that info to plan robberies.
It may not work that way at all -- I work with right-of-way agents a lot and we often have to track down the landowners who hold property through a trust, but we find them through the land records and I don't know if there's a way to find the trusts otherwise.
These guys know gun trusts.
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/class-iii-nfa-sponsored-talon-arms/1442-copying-nfa-trust.html
Read post #7 ETA: in fact read the whole thread.
Question: It may vary by locale, but are Trusts on file with the state somehow? Are they public info, that could be searched and looked for? If it I think it's a very, VERY minor concern -- but more legit than the other one -- that someone could search for "gun trusts" and attempt to use that info to plan robberies.
I'm not aware of any state where a trust has to be filed with any court or state authority, though there may be a few. There may be reasons to do so in some unusual circumstances, or it could theoretically become part of a court file if it becomes part of discovery in a case, but that's pretty far-fetched - and you would know about it because you're the one who would have to produce it.
Corps and LLCs are a different story. They and certain information about them are filed with the state corporation commission and the records are publicly accessible, usually online. That sometimes includes your name, addresses, etc., so more caution may be warranted in naming one of those entities.
exkc135driver
05-22-09, 10:45
Corps and LLCs are a different story. They and certain information about them are filed with the state corporation commission and the records are publicly accessible, usually online. That sometimes includes your name, addresses, etc., so more caution may be warranted in naming one of those entities.
With regard to the naming of a corporation/LLC -- as I have said in other posts, if Mr. A forms "Machine Gunz R Me, Inc." for the purpose of owning an NFA item, and Mr. B forms "Sunny Breezes, Inc." for the same purpose: (1) who is more likely to get burgled?; (2) even though some info about Sunny Breezes is a matter of public record, who cares? What assets it holds is not a matter of public record.
It's time to set this "public record" thing straight. In most states, what is on public record is innocuous info such as the name of the corporation/LLC, its principal office address, the name and address of its registered agent, when it was formed, etc. The corporation's other office addresses need not be disclosed. So, even if Mr. A is stupid enough to form a corporation with a name as stated above, the corporation could keep its sensitive assets in another location.
With regard to the naming of a corporation/LLC -- as I have said in other posts, if Mr. A forms "Machine Gunz R Me, Inc." for the purpose of owning an NFA item, and Mr. B forms "Sunny Breezes, Inc." for the same purpose: (1) who is more likely to get burgled?; (2) even though some info about Sunny Breezes is a matter of public record, who cares? What assets it holds is not a matter of public record.
Right - I don't think we disagree. My point was that it makes sense to think about what you name a LLC or Corp, but it probably doesn't matter for a trust.
It's time to set this "public record" thing straight. In most states, what is on public record is innocuous info such as the name of the corporation/LLC, its principal office address, the name and address of its registered agent, when it was formed, etc. The corporation's other office addresses need not be disclosed. So, even if Mr. A is stupid enough to form a corporation with a name as stated above, the corporation could keep its sensitive assets in another location.
Unless you want to lease an office space to put down as your principal place of business, and pay someone else an annual fee to be your registered agent, what names and addresses are you going to put on there? Are you going to have multiple locations for a company that you form just to own NFA items? Seems more than a little ridiculous.
Bottom line is that if you're going the LLC/Corp route, name it something generic that doesn't hint at guns.
exkc135driver
05-22-09, 13:18
Right - I don't think we disagree. My point was that it makes sense to think about what you name a LLC or Corp, but it probably doesn't matter for a trust.
I don't think we do either, but -- if the entity is going to hold sensitive assets of any type, then I think a vanilla name is better, even if the entity is a trust. But that’s just me.
Unless you want to lease an office space to put down as your principal place of business, and pay someone else an annual fee to be your registered agent, what names and addresses are you going to put on there? Are you going to have multiple locations for a company that you form just to own NFA items? Seems more than a little ridiculous.
That’s one way to do it. But in most states, it’s OK for the principal office address to be a P.O. box or a PMB (private mail box, which you get at places like The UPS Store). As you know, the registered agent’s address has to be an actual place where the RA can be found (no P.O. boxes or PMBs), but it can be a friend … a relative … anybody you trust to promptly turn over anything that the corporation might receive or be served with. That is normally* just going to be either (a) a postcard from your state’s SecState telling you that your annual fees are due or (b) junk mail.
Or, for those with a slightly Byzantine mindset ... form your corps/LLCs using POBs/PMBs for the principal office address. Then form another corp, using a different POB/PMB as its principal office address, and have that corp be the RA for the other corps/LLCs using your home address. Of course that corp will also need an RA, which can be you or your wife/significant other at your home address. Or if you have your own business, use that business as the RA. Or just have the business own the items. More than one plumbing company owns some pipes that have rifling in them ...
Some people advise against a corporation or LLC because the annual fees are high. That is state-specific. They are high in some states, low in others. Your mileage will vary.
*”normally” is another way of saying “probably.” In another post on this subforum I railed against counting on bad things to “probably” not happen. So who was it that said that consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds? :D
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