View Full Version : Took A Stand Today, But At A Substantial Cost.
I have been in some bad situations, many in fact. But what happened today has affected me to an extent that I am not used to and I am feeling extremely uncomfortable right now. Any support would be appreciated.
I dropped my son off at his mother's apt this afternoon. After we split she moved to a less than desirable area here in Camden Co, NJ. I have always disliked taking my son there, but I do have him 5 days per week and live in a nice neighborhood, so he has it good most of the time.
When dropping him off today, I had a conversation outside with her 13 year old son, who was much like a son to me at one time. While talking, a black man accompanied by a white woman pulled up into a parking spot nearby. His profanity laced rap was so loud that I was having a hard time hearing the boy I was talking to. This with his windows UP. I tolerated it as long as I could, but then, after seeing the look of disdain and even fear in the boys face as well as others outside, I had enough.
I walk up to the car and the first thing I saw, my word, was a baby girl in the back seat. I rather passively knocked on the man's window prepared to ask him to lower the music. He immediately popped out of the car and promptly said "First off, mother****er, don't touch my ****ing car." It was all downhill after that.
I am 6'1" and weigh just over 200lbs. He was about 6'3" and an easy 250. He was hoodlum's hoodlum if there ever was one. An absolute disgrace of a human being from head to toe.
After some words were exchanged, he took his shot at me. He connected and I went back on one knee, but then I did the same and actually dropped the big bastard. He quickly got up and it was on. A real bad street fight, plain and simple.
Problem was, there were children outside and my 5 year old son was watching out the window. After about a dozen police arrived, it was over and we were both bloodied substantially. At one point he took his belt off and used it as a weapon, slicing my forehead open. I am pretty sure I broke his nose, but even if not he took his licks as well. No arrests were made, just an offer for both of us to press charges.
I just turned 40, and while this was something I would have just brushed off years ago, as a mature father I am haunted by my son crying in the window. I can't sleep or even come close to rest. My son was so upset, and I feel like I let him down in the worst way. After I left, the scumbag told my ex that "this ain't over, bitch", prompting my return. I called the police and told them of the threat and asked that they watch over things for the night. Her boyfriend came over as well, so I finally but half-heartedly left again. I also have numerous friends that make me look like a little fellow, and they have been put on stand-by in case things escalate.
But now I sit here literally sick and wonder if I should have just let it go. I basically know I did the right thing, but with so many little witnesses I am deeply disturbed by the event. A POS like that is capable of anything, and I feel like I will need to deal with him again one day soon. He is the type that would call his other friends that have also nothing to live for and have them firebomb her apt just to get back at me. My son is there now, and I feel like I have left him in harm's way. Another extremely uncomfortable feeling I am trying to endure right now.
Did I do the right thing?
AirTrafficControl
05-18-09, 22:51
Don't sweat it bro. Just keep your guard up next time you go around there. Trash like that will always need to be dealt with by someone, you did what you had to do.
First off, I probably would have done the same thing.
These kind of people really piss me off. Not necessarly the loud music but when people completely freak out when you didn't do anything to them. I have a neighbor that is the same way, probably worse(we are taking him to court and the entire neighbor hood is backing us)
It sounds like the guy was just looking for a fight, and you just happened to be there. If it wasn't you, it would have been the next guy.
Don't let it get to you. Do, however, keep in contact with the police.
Heavy Metal
05-18-09, 22:57
Pepper spray man, pepper spray.
Pepper spray man, pepper spray.
I think you mean Glock ( or any other gun for that matter)
Hard to say. It seemed ok for you to ask him to lower the music. And if he hit you first it is ok to react. I would say drop it now, don't press charges, and consider it settled.
On the other hand, some kids crashed into my wife's car and they were arrested for driving without a license, lied to the police and claimed she backed up into them, and then slashed her tires the next day. My wife was concerned enough that she bought a new car that week.
Don't sweat it bro. Just keep your guard up next time you go around there. Trash like that will always need to be dealt with by someone, you did what you had to do.
I think that was exactly what I needed to hear. Thank-you.
A few more shots of scotch and I should be ready for bed. My body hurts, but my soul aches for those kids. Especially my son. To leave him in the wake of such an incident is absolute torture. I would spend the night in the parking lot, but the police know my car now and would likely have issue with me hanging around the scene outside.
Just going to rest when I can and keep my phone ringer on maximum.
I will say it was good what you did because he called your son's mother a bitch in your presence. It was worth the cost, as long as nothing further happens. Chances are he won't do anything further.
I will say it was good what you did because he called your son's mother a bitch in your presence. It was worth the cost, as long as nothing further happens. Chances are he won't do anything further as he feels like he took action already.
Actually I had already left when he said that. He was talking with the maintenance man after all the comotion died down and she went out to walk the dog. I know he is pissed because I dropped him. I would bet a million it has been a long time since anyone did that to him. Still, he was one tough bastard and bounced up quick, too quick for me to go in and finish the job.
Thanks for your support, though.
That's rough...
Trying to think what i would do(now,that is).
Would your ex be responsive to staying at a hotel for a few nights with the kids?I know it might not be cheap.But a place with an indoor pool could make it sorta a "mini-vacation" for the kids.Might put you at ease a little while things can cool off?
After I left, the scumbag told my ex that "this ain't over, bitch", prompting my return.
I assume this means you're fairly close by?
I might think about getting my son a cell phone.For a 5 y/o you could get one of those that have 1-button dialing to you and possibly emergency numbers(locks out other numbers).Tell him to keep it at all times and call at the first sign of trouble(specifically the POS).
...Just throwing out what comes to mind that might make me feel more at ease.
Hope it all works out good for you. People with no respect for others make it hard to sit by and do nothing at times. I would have done the same.
My friend, doing the right thing sometimes is the hardest path to take. I'm sure your son will understand and be proud of his father. He was probably very upset at seeing his father, the man he loves, in harm's way. My wife and I spent four years in New Orleans, an absolute sh**hole, full of pieces of trash that think ghetto life is the only way of life. The type of people that think they can scare and back down, and/or beat down anyone. Once in a while a situation comes up where physical violence is the only way out with these types of trash. Thank goodness you know how to handle yourself in a fight.
I experienced similar situations twice while in NOLA. I have trained in jiu-jitsu and Muay-Thai for several years. Each time I managed to leave a good impression. However, it still was a nerve wracking and embarrassing scene. Fighting in the streets is for the pieces of trash that feel it makes them a man to act like a thug. Real men don't start trouble, they only deal with it when there is no other choice.
YOU DID THE RIGHT THING! Your son was scared but, in the long run, the lesson he learned will be invaluable. You are a good father; a bad father would not be worried about this.
Safetyhit -- first off, glad you're okay, could have went a lot further south than it did. Hopefully nothing further will come from this. I can only imagine the worry that that maggot might show back up...I wish I could offer more than a prayer for ya'll, but you've got that.
Sounds like you're pretty upset over your son and other kids seeing the fight, too, but don't let that get too far under your skin. Hopefully you got some time to talk to your son afterward, but I think you can use this as a learning opportunity. You tried to do the right thing and ask politely, and the animal escalated it. Sometimes you try to do the right thing, and you take your lumps for it -- but you try to do the right thing anyway because it's the right thing. And there are bad guys out there that you have to be prepared to deal with -- no matter how much you try to be peaceful, sometimes you can find yourself under attack. Spin it all however you want to teach the lesson you want, but this is a good opportunity to introduce or reinforce some very core life lessons with him.
That's rough...
Trying to think what i would do(now,that is).
Would your ex be responsive to staying at a hotel for a few nights with the kids?I know it might not be cheap.But a place with an indoor pool could make it sorta a "mini-vacation" for the kids.Might put you at ease a little while things can cool off?
I assume this means you're fairly close by?
I might think about getting my son a cell phone.For a 5 y/o you could get one of those that have 1-button dialing to you and possibly emergency numbers(locks out other numbers).Tell him to keep it at all times and call at the first sign of trouble(specifically the POS).
...Just throwing out what comes to mind that might make me feel more at ease.
Thanks for the good advice, buddy.
I am about a 20 minute drive from there, so it's not too far (although it seems like a million miles right now). The police could be there much faster than I, but I am ready as we speak nonetheless. In fact I have stopped at 3 shots of scotch in case I have to go.
Unfortunately my right hand is too swollen for a good fist, so my six cell mag-light will have to be the go to choice. No CCW option here in this state.
parishioner
05-18-09, 23:37
Try to remember that there are some things in life that you can't control and are unavoidable. That is just life. Sometimes you are left without any other options and you have to do what you have to do.
I think you did what any man with a good sense of right and wrong would do. I know you feel like you hurt your son pretty bad you didn't. He was upset because you were in danger but you came out ok. One day you can explain to him what happened and how it was just an unfortunate event. In a way you were standing up for him.
Keep in touch with the police and just try to avoid any more confrontation if at all possible.
While you can't change the past, take the time to reflect on the situation and apply those lessons to any future situations and rectify presently what you can.
Carl
....................Cause you asked.
Going up to him, while not the best idea, wasn't wrong. You have the right to your peace. I've done similar with smokers who insist on doing it near me and my family when they aren't supposed to. Did you start "hey, could you turn that down please, we have children here"? Or "He dickhead, turn that shit down"?
Perhaps disengaging after he got out and started talking shit would have been a better idea. You sound like you lost your temper and/or had some pride hurt when he was shit talking you. You gotta know when to holdem and foldem. Personally, in front of my family with my child near by I would have folded em and attacked another way via police amongst other things. My wife and child know me. I'm not going to be proving anything by putting them in danger unnecessarily. I'm going to be doing my best to avoid it as much as possible until it comes knocking on my door.
The real shame is, you didn't teach him anything. You emboldened him. Those sort of people see that as badge of honor. You feel shame, which is good. It's a virtue. He feels tremendous pride. You just fed his ego. The only shame he was going to feel is if you worked him over hardcore in front of his peers. Likely though, if it was in front of his peers, you would have had a more complicated issue such as getting jumped. So, lose lose really.
Were you armed? Disengaging after the initial conversation would have given you grounds to defend yourself via shooting, in my state at least, if he were to attack. Frankly, a strike to the face is deadly force so even if you didn't disengage and he just decided to swing on you, you'd probably still be good. Walking away though would have made it clear cut. Because you initiated the contact, even rightfully so, it would fall on you to make sure you CYA. Walking away would have CYA. Remember, LE knows shit when we arrive. All we have is bullshit (yes, 95% of the time, they are bullshit) eyewitness accounts. If we could get the common theme of "that guy walked away and the other guy attacked him" throughout all the other BS, you'd be gtg.
Take the threats he made seriously. Although they are probably not, don't make the mistake of not being vigilant.
You might have just bought yourself a big ass mess. Perhaps beyond what you are even considering right now.
Shame for your children. I would feel exactly the same you do. It's a good thing. It shows you have compassion and possess morals. As far as advice for dealing with what you children saw..... Be honest. "Daddy didn't want to fight (assuming you didn't) but you have to defend yourself. I have only ever been in x amount of fights in my life son, it's not something you are supposed to do". ???? Rough first pass at it I guess?
Now, I only have the version you gave us but if it's 100% accurate I'm surprised LE didn't take some action. An affray is one thing but.......... They didn't trespass either of you at the minimum? I wasn't there. Just thinking out loud.
I want to make one more point that I might have already covered but feel it's vitally important to others reading this. Your line "after words were exchanged"... Right there... Stop it. These aren't normal people. You will NEVER be able to reason with them. You WILL get into a fight if you "exchange words". This is how they operate. If you are going to do something, then do it. If you aren't WANTING TO FIGHT then don't talk to them. Because I'm familiar with these sorts of people, I can promise you this... You talked yourself into that fight.
Understand this. I'm not judging you. In the realm of right vs wrong pertaining to ethical and moral standards... You did the right thing IMO. The other stuff, family safety etc. You might have fouled on but that's a personal matter. I support you and your decision all the way up to the end. It might not have been smart, but it was the right thing. Those sort of people have gone unchecked for so long it's bred into them that they can behave like this and get away with it. Perhaps after a few ass kickings they might get the hint because what we are currently doing (being apathetic to it) surely ain't working. Heal fast and stay sharp.
SWATcop556
05-18-09, 23:42
First things first.......I'm glad you're ok.
Second thing........nice to know you can still drop 'em at 40. :cool:
I have always been back and forth on confronting people about this kind of thing. The father and husband side always says step in. The LEO side always says "is it really worth it if shit goes south."
Most of the time the husband/ father side wins out (for better or worse). I would be willing to bet that the piece of shit won't take it any further because he already knows you're willing to throw down with him and he doesn't know how far you're willing to go past that. The unknown can be your biggest weapon sometimes.
Again glad to hear your ok and I would use it as a teaching tool for your son that fighting doesn't always solve the problem, but sometimes you are not given the chance to solve things with words. Sometimes other will dictate your response.
Man, that is a tough one. I am glad you are alright and that the guy did not make it a gun fight. I am a father of 2 toddler boys myself so I know just how you feel. Sometimes you gotta walk away but sometimes you just can't. One day, I was taking the boys to the bank and a guy comes zooming up behind me blowing his horn and flipping me off, yelling out the window to hurry up as I waited to make my left turn across 3 lanes of traffic.
After I parked and unloaded the kids, I saw this guy waiting at the the ATM. He was bigger then me (I am 6'1" 200),he had dread locks and looked tough but I couldn't let it stand. I walked up and said "Hey man, I am not trying to slow you down but I have kids in the car and I gotta keep them safe". He gave me a strange look but said nothing and I walked into the bank and did my business.
We left the bank and I got the kid's in their car seats. The dude then drives up behind me and rolls down his window, I think "oh sh#t, he is going to shoot me down before I can get my pistol out of the car or even worse miss and hit my kid's" BUT he then says "sorry dude, you were right, it was my bad, I would take it slow with the kid's too" I couldn't believe it but it did make me realize that my calm approach to him (and getting lucky that he was apparently a decent guy after all) worked better then flipping him off or talking trash.
As for your situation, I would try to get your ex to leave Camden ASAP. It is a bad place and that guy may always be a threat. If not, it sounds like you have the right idea to recruit some pals for back up and watch things closely for awhile.
I feel for you about your son crying. I have a 5 year old and I know he would have been heartbroken to see me fighting and getting hurt. My advice is level with him, tell him why you did it, that it may or may not have been the best choice but that you did it for good reasons and to protect other kid's from a bad guy. Hell, tell him you are a hero because in a small way you are for sticking up for decency when most people look the other way.
Good luck man, I hope it all works out okay and that that a$$hole got a little sense knocked into him.
I am humbled by all these prompt comments. Thought I might get a reply or two tonight, but this wasn't expected. Thank-you all again. I was very hesitant to post this here, but I do feel better now so I guess it was worth it.
I pretty much know I did the right thing, but my son was clearly traumatized by the blood on my face after the fact as well as the initial fight. That is what I will see over and over as I try to sleep.
I am not the kind to stereotype, but this individual represented all that is wrong with that element of society.
Now, I only have the version you gave us but if it's 100% accurate I'm surprised LE didn't take some action. An affray is one thing but..........
Great overall analysis. Another thanks to you.
Where I live here in neighboring Burlington County, they would have found a reason to arrest someone (especially in my township). In Camden County, however, the rules are different. This is commonplace there, so as they do in Philly the police basically break it up and go on their way.
I am not going to press charges over this specific incident. That is not who I am. If the opportunity presents itself and/or something else happens, I will retaliate accordingly.
I hope it doesn't. I don't want or need this in my life right now. But I will do what I must regardless.
Gutshot John
05-19-09, 00:03
You live, you learn. A street fight is something where even the best outcome has consequences.
You're ok and you learned a lot from the situation. Your son will be fine but you might want to talk about it a bit from him so he takes the right lesson from it.
All told not something I would crucify yourself over.
I'm glad you're ok.
Well, it wasn't the smartest decision with your kid being right there, but it was probably the "morally" right thing to do. Sadly though (like someone else mentioned), you can't reason with "those" types of people.
Definitely use the event to help teach your kid about "conflicts" and to keep him on the right path so he doesn't turn out to be one of "those" types of people when he gets older...
My .02
Your son will be fine but you might want to talk about it a bit from him so he takes the right lesson from it.
Nice to hear from you, pal.
I will certainly do that when he comes back on Wednesday, no doubt. Really couldn't today, far too hectic.
Think I am ready for some one-eyed sleep now thanks to you guys. Just plain exhausted.
I really appreciate your kind words. Good evening to you all.
dookie1481
05-19-09, 00:22
Double-edged sword, man. Yeah fighting in front of your son wasn't the best thing to do, but the flip side is that he has to understand that there are things worth fighting for. It's a damn shame that there are people like that in this world. My father always taught me that there are people in this world that just can't be negotiated or reasoned with. Sometimes those people need to be dealt with in a less-than-gentlemanly way because superior force is all they understand.
You did the right thing. Your son will know that someday.
Jay
It is what it is now.
Morale, right from wrong, possiblities.
You could be dead after what you did today. Morally right, but what would your son do without you?
You could be in jail tonight.
Your child could have been injured or.....
We have a system of laws, not a system of justice. Life is not fair.
I would not approach this situation unless someone was in serious danger. You did the morally right thing, but think about what could have happened and don't put yourself in this situation again.
We read about this every night, "man shot on the street". "Child shot near home".
What witnesses were there? What if he had several witnesses and you had none?
These are things we/you should think of. I don't want to point these things out to you, but you must consider them.
I went to calls like this for twenty-three years and my goal was to go home alive at the end of my shift.
You made a hard call today, now learn from it.
Good luck and god bless you and your son.
Tipy
John_Wayne777
05-19-09, 01:15
Here's the thing:
The world is full of dumbasses. There's no getting around it. The kind of dumbasses that ride around with their stereo so loud they are shaking the windows of other cars in traffic with rap music are pretty high on the dumbass scale. Rap fans in particular are a special breed of dumbass who feed their brain on a bunch of felons talking about how many people they've shot, how many women they've screwed, and generally what kind of bad dudes that they are. This attitude leeches into the void that passes for a brain amongst these sorts, and that can result in them behaving in an irrational and hyper-violent manner should you attempt to correct any action they take...no matter how inappropriate it is.
The only way to win against these sorts of people is to avoid them. Avoid interaction with them whenever possible. Why? Because you have no idea how deep the rabbit hole goes with any individual specimen. There are people out there who will try to kill you for simply reaching around them in a convenience store line....and you don't have to take my word for that. There's actually video of it happening.
So if some idiot pulls into the parking lot blaring 50 cent's profanity laced garbage at ear splitting levels, you call the cops. There are noise ordinances. He's likely violating them. When the cops show up, should he decide to play Mr. Hardcore and fight with them, they will kick his ass...and they will get away with it. The courts recognize the need for cops to occasionally beat somebody up...but they are decidedly less enthusiastic about people who don't have a badge on their chest punching out others. Even if the "others" happen to be the aforementioned dumbasses. This is ESPECIALLY true in a state like New Jersey, where you can punch a felon who was trying to rob a little old lady and STILL end up barely avoiding an assault charge. (BTDT....dealing with the felon was the responsibility of the police, you see...)
There is precisely ZERO to be gained by attempting to approach the dumbass and trying to reason with him. He won't comply. If he was sensible enough to actually take a bit of well intentioned correction odds are he wouldn't be acting in a manner that prompts the urge to give him a good talking to in the first place. The only thing you can get out of the situation is TROUBLE. Call the cops. Let them deal with it.
Now I know that sentiment offends. It's not what we want to do. It flies in the fact of the John Wayne ideal....but we don't live in the old west. Modern society is much different and you cannot rely on the justice system to pound only the ignorant bastard who deserves it. Our system is a machine, and it's just as happy to chew up the lives of the good guys as it is the bad guys. It all depends on who is in charge of the machine. In fact, it's usually a hell of a lot easier to railroad a good guy because they don't know how to play the system like a professional scumbag does. The fact that the guy was behaving like a jackass won't stop his ability to press assault charges against you, and won't guarantee that you don't end up with the dumbest bastard on the department...the guy everybody else on the department would like to see caught on the take so they can be rid of his sorry self...using his legal authority on *you*.
"But he was blaring obscenities from his stereo!!"
"Then you should have called the police."
That's how that little story goes. In an ideal world the officer on scene would perform some amateur dentistry with his trusty PR-24 on the scumbag just because the bastard deserves it...but again, we don't live in that ideal world. People who deserve a beating can't catch one even from the cops unless very strict legal circumstances are met. If, for instance, you happen to kick some gangbanging parole violator who has just led you on a 30 minute high speed chase and has smashed into people after he's "surrendered" and the heli-cam catches it....well...your in it up to your neck. The guy could kill babies and rape their corpses to get his rocks off, but God forbid that you bruise the little darling or a bunch of "civil rights" groups will descend upon you like hyenas on a fresh kill.
...and that's what happens if you are wearing a badge. God help you if you don't have that level of protection, because in some localities it will be a competition between the thugs and some of the morons that have inexplicably worked their way into positions of authority to see who gets to beat the hell out of you more. You can experience the unique joy of gangbangers showing up outside your house making the gun-to-the-head motion with their fingers while the authorities simultaneously ponder what they are going to charge you with. Don't forget that these scumbags usually have no shortage of scumbag friends who will lie like the cheap whores that they are about what you did and what the original scumbag did. Scumbags travel in packs, and they are DAMN good at looking out for their own.
When you interact with a dumbass, you could be mildly inconvenienced...or you could be opening a portal into a world of suck worse than anything you've ever dreamed of. You never know which until you're in the middle of it, and by then you can't fix it.
Think about this really hard for a moment: The story starts off with some idiot playing his stereo too loud. The decision to go ask him to knock it off led to a fight, the possibility of facing criminal charges, and threats of future action. Now it could be that the scumbag is just talking tough...or the ignorant bastard could actually MEAN it. Again, you don't know which until he makes his move. This is actually a better outcome than some where you get a bunch of scumbags telling the cops that "what he had did, was" yell racist epithets while kicking the vehicle, and then attacking poor defenseless Bob when Bob got out of the vehicle to see what all the ruckus was about.
In other words, it went from annoying and rude to significant suck in no-time flat...and who says it's over?
The kid will get over seeing a fight. He'll see far worse on TV before he turns 10. That's not the real concern.
The big take-aways here are:
1. Don't interact with dumbasses unless absolutely forced to.
2. When you do interact with a dumbass, seek the path of least resistance and personal risk unless you are absolutely forced to take a more aggressive path.
3. Dumbasses can go from annoying to lethal faster than your car can go from 0 to 60.
4. Being the good guy doesn't buy you much in our system of "justice" these days....especially not in states with nutty laws like NJ.
5. Police officers as agents of the state have leeway and credibility that no ordinary citizen will ever have...they also have a department that indemnifies them. If somebody needs an attitude adjustment, let them handle it.
6. When something grates on you, ask yourself a simple question: Where will this lead? If you can't answer with an absolutely happy outcome no matter what the chain of events, odds are you should let it go. When the adrenaline and testosterone are flowing you have to be cold and rational enough to realize that this isn't a Clint Eastwood movie. We live in a world where Dirty Harry would be in the cell next to Scorpio. If you have the time to get really good and worked up about something, odds are that it is trouble you don't need. Leave it alone.
7. With any decision to involve yourself in something you aren't absolutely forced to deal with, you aren't just betting your butt. Your family's entire future is on the line as well, financially and in some extreme cases physically. Is it worth risking all of that?
8. None of this sounds particularly macho. It's not in keeping with what we believe is the grand American tradition. In fact, a good bit of it may be pretty f**king offensive.
So?
There is the world as we wish it was, and then there is the world as it is. I don't like the way the world is these days, but reality doesn't bend to my wishes. Good people who try to do the right thing often pay a bitter price for doing so. It's bad enough when you're trying to buy a Whopper and some assclown comes in waving a gun around. Having a bucket of suck dropped in your lap is one thing....don't go accepting buckets that fate gives you the option of passing up.
thopkins22
05-19-09, 01:23
If you're concerned about escalating the situation by pressing charges, you should still try and get something on the official record with the police department affirming your fear of said thug and his friends.
Should things escalate out of control and people get hurt, legally things will look much better for you if there's an official history of this guy threatening you/your concern for your safety and the safety of your family.
If not charges, maybe a restraining order or at least requests for extra patrols.
I believe Massad Ayoob did an article on what you should do when you believe an encounter is imminent.
HAMMERDROP
05-19-09, 01:37
That POS will run into someone who will eventually shoot him for his mouth or actions or even for laffs... simple as that then you have the last laugh, if anybodys death is laughable.
My Grandmother used to say "Just turn the other cheek, honey." As it swolled up like a grapefruit. Then I had to deal with Dad "Whats the other guy look like?" More embarrassing than a blackeye. "G-G-Gramma said to turn the other cheek.
My last name is George now I ask you how many cheeks does one have ?
"**** that other cheek shit!" Die with your boots on if your gonna die !
Fortunately I live in Missouri and we have 'Castle Laws' and I wont ever get out of my vehicle in pursuit of violence, my back wont let me dance anymore but reach inside my car and try to grab me or my wife and I will be contacting Masaad Ayoob shortly there after.
That program which aired a few weeks back 'If I'd only had a gun...' it would be rewritten for me 'If only I'd had more ammo'! **** with my wife and you die a thousand times.
But I feel someday soon your son will revel in the fact he saw 'Dad' kick some ass.
I moved from an area cupla years ago which sounds like where your ex resides and I moved because the males which hung around out front (we had the street light in front of our our house which attracted all kinds of insects) and my cross street neighbors had 4 girls and the young males were getting mouthier by the year, so we moved because it was just a matter of time.
But between me my two Dobermans and the .45 in my back pocket I was the
a-hole ...seems I forgot what it was to be young dumb and just plain stupid, but never forgot what respect for my elders is.
Your son is 5yrs old keep a ball bat in the back seat which could only escalate a sour situation but it may prevent him watching something worse than a fistfight.
Very glad you are okay ... have another on me. Get some sleep and admit it, you feel like your 17 again!
Michael
Safetyhit,
Glad that you are doing good. Having worked as a Bail Bondsman, Correctional Officer and Reserve Police Officer I have to agree with JW and a few others. The people that act like this assclown are not the kind that can be reasoned with. They are jack asses of the highest order and unpredictable.
One thing that I have learned is that unless they are invading your space it is best to stay away from them. I also wouldn't necessarily discount the threat that he made. Chances are that if he was in that area he more than likely had a reason. Family, friends or whatever and you may run into him again.
Safetyhit,
I know this will make me sound weak but I am going to disagree with what most people posted about confronting this guy. It was only music that he was playing loud. If he had been hitting his gf or the kid then a different response would be called for. What if the thug had pulled a gun and shot you when you approached his car? Your son could be without a father this evening and have that memory of seeing you get shot to deal with the rest of his life. Like JW said there are better ways in dealing with clowns like this. Use the system to your advantage to cause the clowns trouble and pain. I'm sure he had something on his car that did not apply with some state or local law. Since there was a kid in the car you could have called the cops or child protective services on them and those claims would have to be investigated to make sure the kid is not in harms way.
Best of luck in this situation and remember you can't be a dad if you aren't here.
ME
Thomas M-4
05-19-09, 02:59
John wayne77 and ZDL are giving you some pretty good advice. I live in one of the worst sh!t holes in Bham lots of experiences like you described some even worse.
Best thing I have learned with fu@ktards like that you cant reason with them they think they are allowed to anything they want best just to ignore them if you got a chance to do so. If they corner you and force your hand [knife,gun,or just physical violence] if your state has some kind of castle law BY ALL MEANS DROP HIS A$$ RIGHT WEAR HE STANDS then call the police and let them clean up the mess [well they dont clean it up the fire department comes by and hoses the mess off of the ground ask me how I know]. More than likely the guy going to talk a bunch of sh!t and not going to do a damn thing But always be vigil if he does decide to get even usually its down the road after he thinks you have forgotten about it or not thinking about it anymore. Do not worry to much about your son he got upset understandably so he doesn't want anything to happen to his father. Hell when I was his age I saw my father catch a crack head breaking in his truck to steal the radio Dad reached in the bed and pulled out 21oz claw hammer pummeled the hell out of that guys back [he hit him with the side of the hammer not the head or the claw] freaked me out a little when I saw that.. FREAKED THE CRACK HEAD OUT BIG TIME he started screaming like I have never heard before.
You can explain that you might not have done the best thing but you thought it was the right thing. Life has some screwed up twists just have to deal with it best as possible.And always watch your 6.
Alaskapopo
05-19-09, 03:22
I have been in some bad situations, many in fact. But what happened today has affected me to an extent that I am not used to and I am feeling extremely uncomfortable right now. Any support would be appreciated.
I dropped my son off at his mother's apt this afternoon. After we split she moved to a less than desirable area here in Camden Co, NJ. I have always disliked taking my son there, but I do have him 5 days per week and live in a nice neighborhood, so he has it good most of the time.
When dropping him off today, I had a conversation outside with her 13 year old son, who was much like a son to me at one time. While talking, a black man accompanied by a white woman pulled up into a parking spot nearby. His profanity laced rap was so loud that I was having a hard time hearing the boy I was talking to. This with his windows UP. I tolerated it as long as I could, but then, after seeing the look of disdain and even fear in the boys face as well as others outside, I had enough.
I walk up to the car and the first thing I saw, my word, was a baby girl in the back seat. I rather passively knocked on the man's window prepared to ask him to lower the music. He immediately popped out of the car and promptly said "First off, mother****er, don't touch my ****ing car." It was all downhill after that.
I am 6'1" and weigh just over 200lbs. He was about 6'3" and an easy 250. He was hoodlum's hoodlum if there ever was one. An absolute disgrace of a human being from head to toe.
After some words were exchanged, he took his shot at me. He connected and I went back on one knee, but then I did the same and actually dropped the big bastard. He quickly got up and it was on. A real bad street fight, plain and simple.
Problem was, there were children outside and my 5 year old son was watching out the window. After about a dozen police arrived, it was over and we were both bloodied substantially. At one point he took his belt off and used it as a weapon, slicing my forehead open. I am pretty sure I broke his nose, but even if not he took his licks as well. No arrests were made, just an offer for both of us to press charges.
I just turned 40, and while this was something I would have just brushed off years ago, as a mature father I am haunted by my son crying in the window. I can't sleep or even come close to rest. My son was so upset, and I feel like I let him down in the worst way. After I left, the scumbag told my ex that "this ain't over, bitch", prompting my return. I called the police and told them of the threat and asked that they watch over things for the night. Her boyfriend came over as well, so I finally but half-heartedly left again. I also have numerous friends that make me look like a little fellow, and they have been put on stand-by in case things escalate.
But now I sit here literally sick and wonder if I should have just let it go. I basically know I did the right thing, but with so many little witnesses I am deeply disturbed by the event. A POS like that is capable of anything, and I feel like I will need to deal with him again one day soon. He is the type that would call his other friends that have also nothing to live for and have them firebomb her apt just to get back at me. My son is there now, and I feel like I have left him in harm's way. Another extremely uncomfortable feeling I am trying to endure right now.
Did I do the right thing?
Its best to let the police handle noise complaints. This whole fight could have been avoided. Its always best to avoid a fight if you can. There are no winners just one loser hurts more than the other one. What if he had a weapon. Its not worth your child growing up without a father. Not picking on you. But the issue here was this guys music. Most people that like music like that like to fight. Just call the cops and let us deal with it.
Pat
QuickStrike
05-19-09, 03:24
The guy sounds like an asshole and deserves to eat a few. Glad you're okay.
Make sure to explain to your son about the situation. Like how conflicts are to be avoided but are sometimes inevitible. Make something positive out of this event.
Reminds me that I've been slacking in the art of flailing limbs. :p
montanadave
05-19-09, 07:41
When you interact with a dumbass, you could be mildly inconvenienced...or you could be opening a portal into a world of suck worse than anything you've ever dreamed of. You never know which until you're in the middle of it, and by then you can't fix it.
I think that pretty much sums it up.
Right or wrong, it's done now and you can only deal with the consequences. Talk with your son and, more importantly, talk to him about how you're feeling right now and the doubts and concerns you're having. Kids can understand a lot more than they let on at times and it can be comforting to a child to know that sometimes adults are as confused with life as they are. Your son doesn't need a super hero, he needs a dad he can relate to and feel comfortable talking to.
As for the POS, others have already given better advice than I can. Unless circumstances absolutely demand that you act to insure your or your family's immediate safety, let the cops handle it.
Glad you're OK, glad your kid is OK and I hope this situation is behind you.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-19-09, 09:10
Don't get down on yourself for the fight. God knows as young men we were prone to get into altercations. Now that I'm older, that drive as a young man pales in comparision to the envelope of actions I could open up on people I deem a danger to my children or my family. I tell my wife that the question is not what I'd do to defend them, but what wouldn't I do. Five year olds need to know that there are bad people out there, that they you need to stay away from them, but that sometimes you have to defend yourself.
He is either a bully or a monster. It sounds like you proved to him that you are more than willing and able to hit his reset switch, so if he is a bully he might mouth off but won't escalate things. He got you unprepared last time, he knows he won't have that advantage next time.
If he is a monster, you'll have a hard time hearing him coming. Act accordingly.
Littlelebowski
05-19-09, 09:36
It probably was best to avoid the fight but I don't think anyone here blames you for taking a stand. I don't.
Your wife and kids need to move to another apartment. Help them with the cost if you can. Hire movers, whatever is necessary. The ghetto rat will strike when you are not there. Good luck.
Sorry you had to go through that with your child present. That said you did the right thing... Punks are punks and should be dealt with accordingly.
Divorce sucks and this is the side that sucks the most, when your child is effected by the break up.
My advise is to get full custody, it will cost you some cash to prevail but it can be done. My children are my life and I fought for them in court for a year, they are now with me a majority of the time and I wouldn't have it any other way....
Keep your head up, things will get better with time. That said, get your son out of that environment. Camden is no place for an innocent child.
My son was crying (age 6 at the time) when he saw me brawling in my driveway. I didn't know he was watching from inside.
Kids are tough. I was able to calm him on the spot and let him know that sometimes shit happens and the fight was no biggie. The best thing I can recommend is for you to not appear impacted. If you come of as traumatized, it'll make things seem worse than they are.
John_Wayne777
05-19-09, 11:09
I think by this point it should be abundantly clear that there are MUCH better ways to handle something like this.
Hopefully that is the lesson people are taking away. Dumbasses surround us. Don't fight with dumbasses unless you have to.
Unfortunately my right hand is too swollen for a good fist, so my six cell mag-light will have to be the go to choice. No CCW option here in this state.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newjersey.pdf
Honestly, when he took his belt off he crossed the line. You would have had every right to use any force necessary to prevent him from using the belt. Plus he was larger then you in size.
Have you applied for your CCW permit?
Here's the thing:
The world is full of dumbasses. There's no getting around it. The kind of dumbasses that ride around with their stereo so loud they are shaking the windows of other cars in traffic with rap music are pretty high on the dumbass scale. Rap fans in particular are a special breed of dumbass who feed their brain on a bunch of felons talking about how many people they've shot, how many women they've screwed, and generally what kind of bad dudes that they are. This attitude leeches into the void that passes for a brain amongst these sorts, and that can result in them behaving in an irrational and hyper-violent manner should you attempt to correct any action they take...no matter how inappropriate it is.
The only way to win against these sorts of people is to avoid them. Avoid interaction with them whenever possible. Why? Because you have no idea how deep the rabbit hole goes with any individual specimen. There are people out there who will try to kill you for simply reaching around them in a convenience store line....and you don't have to take my word for that. There's actually video of it happening.
So if some idiot pulls into the parking lot blaring 50 cent's profanity laced garbage at ear splitting levels, you call the cops. There are noise ordinances. He's likely violating them. When the cops show up, should he decide to play Mr. Hardcore and fight with them, they will kick his ass...and they will get away with it. The courts recognize the need for cops to occasionally beat somebody up...but they are decidedly less enthusiastic about people who don't have a badge on their chest punching out others. Even if the "others" happen to be the aforementioned dumbasses. This is ESPECIALLY true in a state like New Jersey, where you can punch a felon who was trying to rob a little old lady and STILL end up barely avoiding an assault charge. (BTDT....dealing with the felon was the responsibility of the police, you see...)
There is precisely ZERO to be gained by attempting to approach the dumbass and trying to reason with him. He won't comply. If he was sensible enough to actually take a bit of well intentioned correction odds are he wouldn't be acting in a manner that prompts the urge to give him a good talking to in the first place. The only thing you can get out of the situation is TROUBLE. Call the cops. Let them deal with it.
Now I know that sentiment offends. It's not what we want to do. It flies in the fact of the John Wayne ideal....but we don't live in the old west. Modern society is much different and you cannot rely on the justice system to pound only the ignorant bastard who deserves it. Our system is a machine, and it's just as happy to chew up the lives of the good guys as it is the bad guys. It all depends on who is in charge of the machine. In fact, it's usually a hell of a lot easier to railroad a good guy because they don't know how to play the system like a professional scumbag does. The fact that the guy was behaving like a jackass won't stop his ability to press assault charges against you, and won't guarantee that you don't end up with the dumbest bastard on the department...the guy everybody else on the department would like to see caught on the take so they can be rid of his sorry self...using his legal authority on *you*.
"But he was blaring obscenities from his stereo!!"
"Then you should have called the police."
That's how that little story goes. In an ideal world the officer on scene would perform some amateur dentistry with his trusty PR-24 on the scumbag just because the bastard deserves it...but again, we don't live in that ideal world. People who deserve a beating can't catch one even from the cops unless very strict legal circumstances are met. If, for instance, you happen to kick some gangbanging parole violator who has just led you on a 30 minute high speed chase and has smashed into people after he's "surrendered" and the heli-cam catches it....well...your in it up to your neck. The guy could kill babies and rape their corpses to get his rocks off, but God forbid that you bruise the little darling or a bunch of "civil rights" groups will descend upon you like hyenas on a fresh kill.
...and that's what happens if you are wearing a badge. God help you if you don't have that level of protection, because in some localities it will be a competition between the thugs and some of the morons that have inexplicably worked their way into positions of authority to see who gets to beat the hell out of you more. You can experience the unique joy of gangbangers showing up outside your house making the gun-to-the-head motion with their fingers while the authorities simultaneously ponder what they are going to charge you with. Don't forget that these scumbags usually have no shortage of scumbag friends who will lie like the cheap whores that they are about what you did and what the original scumbag did. Scumbags travel in packs, and they are DAMN good at looking out for their own.
When you interact with a dumbass, you could be mildly inconvenienced...or you could be opening a portal into a world of suck worse than anything you've ever dreamed of. You never know which until you're in the middle of it, and by then you can't fix it.
Think about this really hard for a moment: The story starts off with some idiot playing his stereo too loud. The decision to go ask him to knock it off led to a fight, the possibility of facing criminal charges, and threats of future action. Now it could be that the scumbag is just talking tough...or the ignorant bastard could actually MEAN it. Again, you don't know which until he makes his move. This is actually a better outcome than some where you get a bunch of scumbags telling the cops that "what he had did, was" yell racist epithets while kicking the vehicle, and then attacking poor defenseless Bob when Bob got out of the vehicle to see what all the ruckus was about.
In other words, it went from annoying and rude to significant suck in no-time flat...and who says it's over?
The kid will get over seeing a fight. He'll see far worse on TV before he turns 10. That's not the real concern.
The big take-aways here are:
1. Don't interact with dumbasses unless absolutely forced to.
2. When you do interact with a dumbass, seek the path of least resistance and personal risk unless you are absolutely forced to take a more aggressive path.
3. Dumbasses can go from annoying to lethal faster than your car can go from 0 to 60.
4. Being the good guy doesn't buy you much in our system of "justice" these days....especially not in states with nutty laws like NJ.
5. Police officers as agents of the state have leeway and credibility that no ordinary citizen will ever have...they also have a department that indemnifies them. If somebody needs an attitude adjustment, let them handle it.
6. When something grates on you, ask yourself a simple question: Where will this lead? If you can't answer with an absolutely happy outcome no matter what the chain of events, odds are you should let it go. When the adrenaline and testosterone are flowing you have to be cold and rational enough to realize that this isn't a Clint Eastwood movie. We live in a world where Dirty Harry would be in the cell next to Scorpio. If you have the time to get really good and worked up about something, odds are that it is trouble you don't need. Leave it alone.
7. With any decision to involve yourself in something you aren't absolutely forced to deal with, you aren't just betting your butt. Your family's entire future is on the line as well, financially and in some extreme cases physically. Is it worth risking all of that?
8. None of this sounds particularly macho. It's not in keeping with what we believe is the grand American tradition. In fact, a good bit of it may be pretty f**king offensive.
So?
There is the world as we wish it was, and then there is the world as it is. I don't like the way the world is these days, but reality doesn't bend to my wishes. Good people who try to do the right thing often pay a bitter price for doing so. It's bad enough when you're trying to buy a Whopper and some assclown comes in waving a gun around. Having a bucket of suck dropped in your lap is one thing....don't go accepting buckets that fate gives you the option of passing up.
Outstanding Reply!
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newjersey.pdf
Honestly, when he took his belt off he crossed the line. You would have had every right to use any force necessary to prevent him from using the belt. Plus he was larger then you in size.
Have you applied for your CCW permit?
It would be MUCH better to run and only shoot if you are chased than to go up to a car, exchange words, and then shoot the guy when it fought you. It would go to trial to be sorted out, which is very expensive.
My knife instructor said he was once chased down when he was driving. The guy got out of his car, and approached his with a tire-iron. He considered drawing his gun but did not. The guy whacked the car with the iron and dented it. My instructor through to himself "If I shoot this guy, it will cost $50K in legal fees but I will probably win. Should I shoot him? Naw, he did not yet do $50,000 in damage to my car." The guy smashed the car again, and broke a window. My instructor thought "Is that $50,000 yet? Nope. Not yet." He did nothing, and I don't yet actually fear for my life. The attacker left, and he got the license number and reported it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-19-09, 12:23
It would be MUCH better to run and only shoot if you are chased than to go up to a car, exchange words, and then shoot the guy when it fought you. It would go to trial to be sorted out, which is very expensive.
My knife instructor said he was once chased down when he was driving. The guy got out of his car, and approached his with a tire-iron. He considered drawing his gun but did not. The guy whacked the car with the iron and dented it. My instructor through to himself "If I shoot this guy, it will cost $50K in legal fees but I will probably win. Should I shoot him? Naw, he did not yet do $50,000 in damage to my car." The guy smashed the car again, and broke a window. My instructor thought "Is that $50,000 yet? Nope. Not yet." He did nothing, and I don't yet actually fear for my life. The attacker left, and he got the license number and reported it.
Good thing he wasn't driving his Bentley.
Given this is in a firearms forum and many of us carry a weapon out in the world, I expected this story to end with someone being shot, especially seeing the title of the thread. After you mentioned he attacked first and reading about how the situation played out, my mind went immediately to Means / Opportunity / Intent and a green light came on. I'm glad to hear this wasn't the case and I hope all the best for you and for your family.
It made me think about carrying and approaching someone where a conflict could arise -- would I have gone over to talk to the person? When he attacked, would I have moved for my weapon? How would have it changed how the situation developed? Carrying a gun in public, I'm no less outgoing or affable when dealing with other folks but it does change how I approach situations and groups of folks with a demonstrated tendency to "go off" as I live in a town with a ton of violent wannabe thugs and "bangers" (but few real gangsters).
I respect you for standing up for your family and the community. It makes me sick to watch the slow, cancerous degeneration of people today. Buying a home made me re-think the value of strong defense skills / tools and helped me understand the value of developing a neighborhood relationship where folks respect one another. I'm sad to see situations like yours end in violence when you're simply trying to look out for your family and, like many others, I'm not sure I would have reacted much differently.
Sadly, this isn't one of those cases where you get to hug it out with a few rounds of beer after the fight -- time to be on point in that area... good luck.
Rmplstlskn
05-19-09, 12:29
Evolution, my a$$... De-evolution is more like it...
Sad you and your kid are in such a situation... It sucks...
What I would have done is irrelevant. What happened, happened. Rather, I try my best to never, ever be in such a situation in the first place, which means avoiding places that have thugs like that. But you can't, so crap happens. Thousands of hollywood movies have been made on the "good guy stands up for what is right. Bad guys feels dissed and seeks revenge. Carnage."
Stay safe...
Rmpl
John_Wayne777
05-19-09, 13:00
My knife instructor said he was once chased down when he was driving. The guy got out of his car, and approached his with a tire-iron. He considered drawing his gun but did not. The guy whacked the car with the iron and dented it. My instructor through to himself "If I shoot this guy, it will cost $50K in legal fees but I will probably win. Should I shoot him? Naw, he did not yet do $50,000 in damage to my car." The guy smashed the car again, and broke a window. My instructor thought "Is that $50,000 yet? Nope. Not yet." He did nothing, and I don't yet actually fear for my life. The attacker left, and he got the license number and reported it.
...and unfortunately that's the reality of the world we live in. You have to do a cost benefit analysis.
Sometimes life drops a big bucket of suck on your head...like that poor fellow in Florida who was trying to buy some fast food when a scumbag showed up waving a gun around and threatening people. That was an unavoidable dump truck of suck. Thankfully life sometimes gives us the option of whether or not we get hit with that dump truck.
Sometimes we have options. When we have the option to side step a big ball of trouble, it would be wise to do so. It doesn't feel good, but neither does a homicide investigation and a lawsuit. Even if the consequences don't rise to that level, it would still be best to avoid the conflict if at all possible. One day when you might end up facing that unavoidable dump truck of suck it would be better to be facing it with a clean slate.
You have to understand what you are risking and settle in your mind and heart what sorts of things are worth the risk. Look at your circumstances rationally and then draw your line in the sand where it makes sense for you. Then stick to it.
Everybody has to do it. EVERYBODY. There isn't a police officer, or high-speed elite military type guy who hasn't had to bite his lip and let some shit go because it would be counterproductive in the grand scheme to do what he really, really, REALLY wanted to do in the situation. It's part of the deal that comes with being a good guy as opposed to a scum-sucking dirtbag.
There have been several very intelligent and informative replies to your original post and I agree with much that's been written here. Honestly, more than likely I would've responded in a similar fashion and I feel that you had every right to do so but there are ramifications to your actions that you must consider. Your son will pull through and in no short time will probably think of you as a hero for defending what's right rather than being scared initially due to seeing you injured.
However, I would also caution you to try to think of how the other guy is feeling and what he's thinking in response to you standing up to him. He's already proven that he has no respect for other people, will not hesitate to break the law and will follow through with his threats of violence. You have emasculated and humiliated him and gave him a few lumps to think about for the next few days while he was probably very embarassed in front of his girlfriend/wife/bitch/whatever and whoever else was around, he will want revenge.
In my experience and in dealing with similar situations with unsavory characters I would take his threat very seriously and report it immediately. Any and all evidence you have showing that you're in fear of great bodily injury or death will help your defense if ever the need arises. Potentially you may be involved in an escalated incident, think gun and/or multiple assailants, following this and you'll want to be prepared mentally, physically, emotionally and legally.
I don't know about your laws there but if it's difficult to carry concealed or open carry for that matter I would invest in some good pepper spray as a deterrent. Be safe and think about the safety of your family and yourself when situations like this may present themselves in the future as you could just as easily be in a morgue right now.
Take care and be safe.
CarlosDJackal
05-19-09, 13:23
What has happened has happened and you can't change that. Just learn from it and take the appropriate measures to protect yourself legally, civilly and physically. While it was clearly self-defense, unless you have witnesses that are willing to back you up, the only thing you can do is to go into CYA mode.
Hindsight being what it is, you should have called the Police and reported that some POS is blasting music in a closed car with a baby in the back. Tell them that you fear for the amount of damage he is causing to the child's hearing and request that Social Services be called to the scene as well.
Other than that, it is a free country and anyone can play whatever music they want with as much vulgarity as loudly as they want. Good luck!!
PRGGodfather
05-19-09, 13:31
...Look at your circumstances rationally and then draw your line in the sand where it makes sense for you. Then stick to it.
Everybody has to do it. EVERYBODY. There isn't a police officer, or high-speed elite military type guy who hasn't had to bite his lip and let some shit go because it would be counterproductive in the grand scheme to do what he really, really, REALLY wanted to do in the situation. It's part of the deal that comes with being a good guy as opposed to a scum-sucking dirtbag.
Yup. True dat!
To paraphrase HK, "In a world of compromise, most do."
lonewolf21
05-19-09, 13:49
i am super glad to hear about this. its about damn time people start standing up for what the believe in. if i was the cop that showed up i would have thanked you for being a good american and not putting up with that crap. i see this world go down the drain more and more everyday, its time everyone stop relying on police and the judicial system to answer problems. i love to see citizens standing up for what the believe in. good job brother. thumbs up from me.
theJanitor
05-19-09, 14:06
your son can learn two things from this. you can be a real man for standing up for what's right, and you can also be a real man for avoiding confrontation. either path chosen won't alter how good a man YOU are, and how good a man HE can be. soon enough he will understand you and your actions.
it's done and i'm sure by today, you're already investigating an exit plan for your son and his mother. glad to hear you're OK.
Rmplstlskn
05-19-09, 14:39
...its time everyone stop relying on police and the judicial system to answer problems. i love to see citizens standing up for what the believe in. good job brother. thumbs up from me.
I would guess you have never been sucked into the grinding mill called our legal system...
Rmpl
lonewolf21
05-19-09, 14:52
everyday i put on my uniform. :D my point is that too many people simply rely on the judicial system to make them safe and protect them. and everyday i have to tell someone about how i cant help them like i should because of the laws that we are governed under. "there's right and wrong, then there's the law"
Pepper spray man, pepper spray.
Ed Zachary
John_Wayne777
05-19-09, 15:02
if i was the cop that showed up i would have thanked you for being a good american and not putting up with that crap.
Herein lies the problem:
All the people wearing badges don't see it that way, just as all the grand juries in the world aren't comprised of people who think my way on matters.
If it were up to me, when somebody ventilates an armed robber who shows up at Burger King, we wouldn't have a grand jury...we'd have a medal ceremony where the armed citizen is thanked for his contributions to society and the cost of the ammo he used doing a public service would be re-reimbursed.
Unfortunately, it's not up to me. It's often up to people with a very different perspective. We have to take that into account.
The law ties your hands as a police officer....well, the simple truth is that the non-sworn individual's hands are bound even tighter than yours.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-19-09, 15:22
Other than that, it is a free country and anyone can play whatever music they want with as much vulgarity as loudly as they want. Good luck!!
Funny, my first thought was to have some country music playing at high levels the next time he comes around.
CarlosDJackal
05-19-09, 16:11
Funny, my first thought was to have some country music playing at high levels the next time he comes around.
I was thinking some ABBA myself. :D
bravo sir. You have taught your son a valuable lesson. You stood up for what you believe in. I did find myself in a similar situation in college at a bar. A patron was harassing a female and no one stood up for her. I did and it left be bloodied but I broke his arm and dislocated his shoulder. Sadly my face looked worse than his though. But well done sir.
Hey Safety, Hope your son and you are both doing well today.
Not much else left to be said...
It's not something I would have done. Loud music isn't worth physical confrontation potentially leading to serious bodily injury or a lethal force event. It's annoying, but it isn't worth it.
Keep record of such variables in the visitation environment in case they're of use in future hearings.
As it stands, the ex could use it to paint you in a less flattering light.
Glad you're okay. Drive on.
Not much else left to be said...
Glad you're okay. Drive on.
Indeed.
As mentioned before, do not assume it is over. Take appropriate precautions and make every effort to move them to a new locale.
I commend your guts in confronting the guy. I would only add that I saw my dad tangle with a few people as a kid and I thought he was the Man. It's all how you sell it.
These people live their entire lives thinking minutes ahead. Their disregard of consequences makes them dangerous. I ignore the rap music. I even ignore the unsecured babies (natural selection at work - jacked but that is what I always think). The only thing I confront people over is profanity in movies and restraunts when my children are present.
I would address the issue with the youngster and keep on truckin'.
JediMindTricks
05-19-09, 19:49
Glad to hear you're ok. You should invest in some Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu if you haven't already. Once a moron like that is on the floor, a grappler with only 6 months experience can totally dictate the fight.
Right or wrong, you had to know going in that nothing good was going to come of that... Pick your battles dude.
Safetyhit,
I know this will make me sound weak but I am going to disagree with what most people posted about confronting this guy. It was only music that he was playing loud. If he had been hitting his gf or the kid then a different response would be called for. What if the thug had pulled a gun and shot you when you approached his car? Your son could be without a father this evening and have that memory of seeing you get shot to deal with the rest of his life. Like JW said there are better ways in dealing with clowns like this. Use the system to your advantage to cause the clowns trouble and pain. I'm sure he had something on his car that did not apply with some state or local law. Since there was a kid in the car you could have called the cops or child protective services on them and those claims would have to be investigated to make sure the kid is not in harms way.
Best of luck in this situation and remember you can't be a dad if you aren't here.
ME
I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask someone creating a disturbance to turn it down a little bit. Given the guy, was it smart? I can't say. But in the end IMO the other guy was totally in the wrong. Safetyhit was assaulted - you can't attack someone because they ask you to turn your music down.
The problem with today's society is there is no penalty for bad behavior. You could call the police, and if they even show up for something like this (obviously iy's not a high priority call) then the guy will probably be given at most a ticket that he'll never pay, most likely a warning if I had to venture a guess.
What we need is for EVERYONE to ALWAYS take a stand. I know, like others have said there is the world we want and the world we live in. And in the world we live in the good people are expected to put up with shit from scumbags.
To the OP - glad you're OK. As far as your kid - you did the right thing and were attacked. Maybe it would have been smarter to not say anything, but no one IMO can say you did the wrong thing morally.
Those sort of people have gone unchecked for so long it's bred into them that they can behave like this and get away with it. Perhaps after a few ass kickings they might get the hint because what we are currently doing (being apathetic to it) surely ain't working. Heal fast and stay sharp.
Pure truth in those words right there.
the1911fan
05-20-09, 07:11
But in the end IMO the other guy was totally in the wrong. Safetyhit was assaulted - you can't attack someone because they ask you to turn your music down.
.
The inner city prosecutors would rule this mutual combat and at best BOTH would be charged with disorderly conduct, most likely they would prefer no charges.
The best course of action is to call the police to deal with noise disturbances, most likely in Camden, NJ that would be a VERY low priority call and take hours to get a response. Cops without badges sometimes end up like Cops with badges ...dead over something stupid.
And the description that the thug was the thug of all thugs or something like that was inaccurate, if he was he would have shot the OP for merely knocking on his car window or even looking with disdain in his direction. I have responded to shootings in which all it took for the thug to shoot someone was a bad look or some "exchange of words"...no fight..no warning just a gun pulled and BANG..dead victim over some stupid ghetto bullshit.
The inner city prosecutors would rule this mutual combat and at best BOTH would be charged with disorderly conduct, most likely they would prefer no charges.
The best course of action is to call the police to deal with noise disturbances, most likely in Camden, NJ that would be a VERY low priority call and take hours to get a response. Cops without badges sometimes end up like Cops with badges ...dead over something stupid.
And the description that the thug was the thug of all thugs or something like that was inaccurate, if he was he would have shot the OP for merely knocking on his car window or even looking with disdain in his direction. I have responded to shootings in which all it took for the thug to shoot someone was a bad look or some "exchange of words"...no fight..no warning just a gun pulled and BANG..dead victim over some stupid ghetto bullshit.
And then they think they did a service by killin em. Its a vicious cycle but thats what this rap shit puts into their head. Their so THUG homie for shootin up the block yo. IMHO i support your decision whole heartedly man. Like its been said here 100+ times, turn this into a moral lesson for him. And for the record in some cases i think it would be worth it to call someone out for their filth ridden music played at ear peircing decibles. I wouldnt want a younger kid to be exposed to that because that very music is a major part of why these THUG wannabes are the way they are. Stay sharp and watch your back man.
Glad to hear you're ok. You should invest in some Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu if you haven't already. Once a moron like that is on the floor, a grappler with only 6 months experience can totally dictate the fight.
and while you're on the ground wrasslin' around with the guy, his chick with NO experience can put the point of her boot in your eye...
OldNavyGuy
05-20-09, 08:52
After some words were exchanged, he took his shot at me. He connected and I went back on one knee...
you didn't see it coming ?
"First off, mother****er, don't touch my ****ing car."
after that introduction :rolleyes: you should have been ready for anything !!
where i live a CCW is law, i am 71 y.o. and if a similar situation comes my way there will be 15, 9mm slugs for the autopsy folks to dig out, my legal defense..., "i am old, weak and was in fear of my life" (don't let that "weak" word fool you though ;) )
Submariner
05-20-09, 09:10
Back in 2001-2002, I took two classes from James Yeager (Tactical Response.) Other than the shoot house experience I carried away two things:
FAST
Fight
Assess
Scan
Tactical reload, and;
Words to live by:
Avoidance
Deterrence and
De-escalation
The first does not apply here. The second, however, may be food for thought as you war game the situation in which you found yourself to see if there might be a better solution next time.
Approaching the man at all was a very culturally sensitive, politically correct thing to do. Liberals everywhere should applaud it. Assuming the man was prone to violence simply because of his looks and the music he was listening to would have been stereotyping or profiling him, and that wouldn't have been fair.
I'm just sayin' :)
The_War_Wagon
05-20-09, 11:31
Children cry. I have 4, and they do it all the time. Feces is only going to get worse in this country - better they see you NOT back down from it, than to cower meekly, and teach them how to get EATEN. :eek:
Hope it doesn't come back to haunt you, LEGALLY-speaking, and being in the People's Democratic Republic of New Joisey doesn't help matters, but over here in da' 'Burgh, where one can CCW legally, I was ready to drop a Section 8 wannabee about a year ago myself. Whenever I was out in the yard, I was ALWAYS armed, as I was using every LEGAL MEANS to evict this lout from the neighborhood at the time. He'd frightened all the little old ladies on the block, but not me. If the sumbeech had ever said 'boo' to me, I'd of dropped him in a flash (he tried to have some staredowns, as if THAT might scare me... :rolleyes:), but he screwed up one TOO many times beating his girlfriend, and when the cops responded early one morning, they caught him with all his drugs and paraphenalia on the coffee table, and that was all she wrote. He discovered - most likely - why jail is called "the pokey," :eek: being a punk-azz 22 year old white-boy wannabee, and the slumlord (who I've lost no love for, either :mad:) finally had to toss him.
Your situation was a lot scarier, but TAKE the time to explain to your son, what happened, and why you did what you did. Might be a good entre to get him into karate or some such. I hope your son can understand. My sons have Autism, so I AM their protector - I have to be for a LONG time to come, because they're still not at a point where they CAN understand.
JediMindTricks
05-20-09, 14:54
and while you're on the ground wrasslin' around with the guy, his chick with NO experience can put the point of her boot in your eye...
I'd triangle choke him, and draw on her at the same time :D
Glad to hear you're ok. You should invest in some Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu if you haven't already. Once a moron like that is on the floor, a grappler with only 6 months experience can totally dictate the fight.
Not true. Most BJJ schools don't teach you how to move in and take down a good striker, much less get you good enough to do it after only 6 months of training. Most takedowns are done in isolated drills and not in sparring because there isn't enough room for the whole class to spar standing up at the same time. And training is against someone doing BJJ, not trying to take your head off with a punch.
Now back to the regularly scheduled topic.
I think a lot of people like John Wayne gave the original poster good advice. Almost any type of interaction with the guy in the incident is likely to result in the guy trying to escalate it into a fight.
QuickStrike
05-20-09, 16:18
I'd triangle choke him, and draw on her at the same time :D
What if he bites you in the balls? :p
Lots of BJJ techniques seem pretty risky to me, simply because of biting.
Better to stun/drop them and run. If you need more time to get away (child there), add a solid kick to the jaw/temple when they're down (best from the side). :o
I can only imagine your kid loves you to death and doesn't want to see you bleed. But those kids will remember that you stood up for what is right in their mind, that is what they will remember.
It's honestly hard to say anything and give someone advice especially when it made me mad as hell when I read what went on. But you need to know this dude has absolutely no respect for anyone, not even his own family (if that was his baby and girlfriend in the car?).
Know your surroundings, and don't show any affection to anyone in that fine place of a so called neighborhood, just don't give him any weakness. Make sure this dude doesn't try and jump you with some of his budies by bushwacking you from behind. It may be in your favor to have someone go with you next time. If for nothing else, to try and keep control of things. Take a camera with you to take pictures of the cars around the house and on the street. This way if it's your word against his that he wasn't there, why is his car there. Just watch out for your family and yourself.
Something I learned through the years is always know your own limitations, and be smart about what you do. Fear is what people like him are all about, but guys like this are no more or less fearless than any other person. He may honestly have a little fear of you because you stood your ground. Plus you lasted until the Police got there (something I'm sure he would have never figured). Hang your head high and don't do the ignore thing, but do stand your own ground. If he thinks you're afraid of him, he'll keep pushing.
Lets all hope this is done with.
Good Luck
Thats the cost we pay for eternal vigilance and just common damn courtesy!
Well my friends, it has been an interesting and extremely draining past couple of days. I have had about 5 hrs sleep (if that) the past two nights and ate my first meal since Monday at around 2pm today. I have been pushed to my physical and emotional limits, and maybe a bit beyond.
The animal has been at it for two days now. Been there twice with the police after he has continued to threaten and intimidate her and the kids. He does everything when the cops aren't around, so they are still content to do nothing but tell everyone to behave when they arrive. It is getting disgraceful. He told me yesterday, when the officer got in his car, that he wants me dead and will not rest until I am dead. She is getting a civil restraining order on him so he can't approach her window as he did yesterday. My son is due to be dropped off tonight, and he will not be going back there for a while. He is afraid in his own home now, and afraid to go outside. I am beyond sick and angry.
This is the worst individual I have ever dealt with in my life, and that's saying a lot.
Regardless, I will do what is best for my son and only what is best for him. That means staying away from the animal as long as possible. Unless necessary. I can not let him take either my life nor my freedom. Period. My son's future is far more important than my deeply desired revenge on the animal. I know this and will never lose sight of it. A rival will likey take him out soon or he will be in jail for something else eventually.
This incident has hurt me so very deeply. I need to have my son next to me. Him being there these past two nights has been hell. The one and only reason I have not already brought him here is this: I felt it wrong to go there, create a disaster, and then say "Well, I am taking my son now because it is too dangerous here. Good luck to you all." What a gut-wrenching dilemma. I have sucked it up for two days, hoping the animal will come to his senses, praying, and it has hurt bad. I have cried hard worrying tirelessly about them. I am tired.
I do have a support group, of sorts, based in south Philly that will be there for me if things get worse. This is a fact. That is all I will say in that regard, except that I am not taking this lying down. Nor will I put myself in a position to go to prison and disappear from my son's life. That is simply not an option.
Thank-you all for the incredible support. I haven't been able to read anything but the first night's replies until this evening, and I am once again humbled. JW777, what can I say. You are right, my friend. Thank-you and everyone for taking the time. What a superb collection of minds we have here.
For what it's worth, this is not happening in Camden. It is in Camden County, Gloucester Township to be exact. Camden city is at the northern end of the County. My son would never be allowed to stay there. Ever.
Any bigshot LEO's want to step in and help out, please let me know. I will not press charges for the fight, as I don't want the animal know what my address is. My son needs a safe haven, and they can all come to my home if need be for a while. But, I feel like the police have let us and that entire neighborhood down. Anyone can see what a belligerent bastard this co*ksucker is, yet they have not taken him away after 3 consecutive incidents, one with violence. I am deeply disappointed in this, and I see it as a shining example of how society is being allowed to degenerate. Horrible.
Thanks again, everyone.
Safetyhit,
I feel really badly for you going through this.
I'm sorry it turned out that way. In hindsight, as John Wayne and others pointed out, when you deal with someone like this, even to ask them nicely to do something, they will try to escalate it into a fight.
I think your ex-wife and son need to move. Make sure all of the movers do not disclose where your ex-wife is moving. All mail needs to be forwarded to a PO box or UPS store type places.
It is a shame that it has come to this, but now that it has, I don't see it as safe for your exwife to stay there. I know if I were her I would not want to live there.
If you are going to help with the moving, be sure to get a lot of extra friends or witnesses around. You ,ay even be able to hire an off-duty Police Officer. I know in Dalas it is possible to do such, not sure about elsewhere.
I think your ex-wife and son need to move. Make sure all of the movers do not disclose where your ex-wife is moving. All mail needs to be forwarded to a PO box or UPS store type places.
By the absolute grace of God she and her boyfriend (who is a nice but little guy) have a deposit on a home in Williamstown, a much nicer area. Not like where I am, but much better than Blackwood (Gloucester Twp).
They were supposed to move next month, but are now attempting to expedite.
I truly thank the lord. I can not take much more of this, I assure you.
Thomas M-4
05-20-09, 20:54
Sorry you going through that sh!t don't let him wear you down. Thats his tactics need to get a CCW if its allowed were you live. Can of pepper spray would be good to especially when he came up to you and said he wishes you were dead you could have sprayed him then. If you came at you with any kind of weapon in AL you would be justified in protecting your life with deadly force. Let him be the instigator not you thats your legal protection. Good luck
By the absolute grace of God she and her boyfriend (who is a nice but little guy) have a deposit on a home in Williamstown, a much nicer area. Not like where I am, but much better than Blackwood (Gloucester Twp).
Good to hear. See if your ex-wife & family can stay with someone else in the meantime.
Make absolutely certain that they maintain security during the move
--Let the movers know not to release the info.
--Make sure all mail is forwarded to a PO box or mail receiving place.
From the way this thing unfolded and what I have read of this guy here, he strikes me as a hothead who goes after targets of opportunity and will forget all about you and your family. Given the way he seems to go through life he will likely have other run ins with people to keep him busy. It should be out of sight, out of mind with you and your family.
I am going to say something unpopular. I don't think that a CCW for you is a good idea. I think you displayed incredibly poor judgement and a bit of a hot temper when you initiated this incident. Yes, you initiated it. Familiar with the ideas of "think before you act", "take responsibility for your actions", "set the example", "pick your battles", "you might win the battle but lose the war"? You charged up to the car to demand that he turn down the music because you were mad, plain and simple. Your anger got the best of you. Not only was it poor judgement, it was a poor example for your son. You didn't even consider the consequences of the moment, let alone the long term consequences, more on those later. Was the music loud? Probably was. Are you a code enforcement officer? Cop? Didn't think so. People with such short fuses shouldn't be carrying guns in public. You know what your kid learned from this? Dad is a hothead. Because of dad, we have to move. Because of dad, mommy is mad and cries. Pressing charges? don't think about it. The police will have as much cause to arrest him, as they will you and imagine it will be a two for one deal. Want a LEO to take interest in this from a forum? Never happen, that isn't how it works. This is what is called a biased personal involvement and your little self initiated problem isn't worth any LEO's job.
Here is what you have to look forward to. Your ex is going to document this incident. You want to bet that here lawyer isn't going to hear about it? Think about all the ammunition you just gave her for the next custody redetermination.
Think about this, think about what you did through the filter of long term consequences and the next time your anger is engaging before your brain has then put the brakes on and start thinking before you make an even bigger mistake with bigger consequences.
I am going to say something unpopular. I don't think that a CCW for you is a good idea. I think you displayed incredibly poor judgement and a bit of a hot temper when you initiated this incident. Yes, you initiated it. Familiar with the ideas of "think before you act", "take responsibility for your actions", "set the example", "pick your battles", "you might win the battle but lose the war"? You charged up to the car to demand that he turn down the music because you were mad, plain and simple. Your anger got the best of you. Not only was it poor judgement, it was a poor example for your son. You didn't even consider the consequences of the moment, let alone the long term consequences, more on those later. Was the music loud? Probably was. Are you a code enforcement officer? Cop? Didn't think so. People with such short fuses shouldn't be carrying guns in public. You know what your kid learned from this? Dad is a hothead. Because of dad, we have to move. Because of dad, mommy is mad and cries. Pressing charges? don't think about it. The police will have as much cause to arrest him, as they will you and imagine it will be a two for one deal. Want a LEO to take interest in this from a forum? Never happen, that isn't how it works. This is what is called a biased personal involvement and your little self initiated problem isn't worth any LEO's job.
Here is what you have to look forward to. Your ex is going to document this incident. You want to bet that here lawyer isn't going to hear about it? Think about all the ammunition you just gave her for the next custody redetermination.
Think about this, think about what you did through the filter of long term consequences and the next time your anger is engaging before your brain has then put the brakes on and start thinking before you make an even bigger mistake with bigger consequences.
I agree. Attempting to balance my agreement here with my opinion in my first post however. I find myself standing by what I said about your decision to go talk to him yet, agree completely with the above.
I am going to say something unpopular. I don't think that a CCW for you is a good idea. I think you displayed incredibly poor judgement and a bit of a hot temper when you initiated this incident. Yes, you initiated it. Familiar with the ideas of "think before you act", "take responsibility for your actions", "set the example", "pick your battles", "you might win the battle but lose the war"? You charged up to the car to demand that he turn down the music because you were mad, plain and simple. Your anger got the best of you.
After all I have been through, I will give this the brief reply it deserves.
You are wrong to assume I "charged up to the car" so I could accost a degenerate 250lb thug. I walked up to it and knocked gently. Was I angry, hell yes. Did I display it, no. Get your facts straight, assh*le.
Your overall response is so idiotic and falsely judgmental that I will ignore it and the rest of your posts.
Maybe I should call it a night here, will be banned if I have to deal with another fool like this.
I agree.
Thanks a lot.
Have a good evening folks.
Thanks a lot.
Have a good evening folks.
No need to take it personal. There are elements of what you did that I support and I pointed those out. You've had some other chest thumping stuff on here before, if I remember correctly (that I forgot about until I looked back, after I originally posted). I feel there might be a theme developed in your behavior that causes you to not filter things as effectively as I feel a 40 year old should. That's all. Don't hate you or think you're a ****wad, just feel you might have missed the boat on a few things. I think this might have gotten your attention though and that is a GREAT thing. You put it out here for opinions. We didn't pry it from you, ask you, or post it ourselves.
Take it and grow from it. All you can do at this point. I do wish you well and certainly hope your family stays safe. :cool:
PALADIN-hgwt
05-20-09, 21:50
Back when I lived in NE Philly there was an incident where a homeowner who confronted crack dealers in front of his home was shot and killed. When dealing with scumbags who have nothing to lose, the upright and honest person often will lose. Disengage as soon as possible. I worked in Camden for a while, and there is not enough gold in Ft. Knox to lure me back...
Paladin
You've had some other chest thumping stuff on here before, if I remember correctly...
Chest pounding incidents, or recollection of fact relevant to a specific thread?
Maybe I shouldn't ask, but how about you back this statement up and allow me to defend myself?
I am going to say something unpopular. I don't think that a CCW for you is a good idea. I think you displayed incredibly poor judgement and a bit of a hot temper when you initiated this incident. Yes, you initiated it. Familiar with the ideas of "think before you act", "take responsibility for your actions", "set the example", "pick your battles", "you might win the battle but lose the war"? You charged up to the car to demand that he turn down the music because you were mad, plain and simple. Your anger got the best of you. Not only was it poor judgement, it was a poor example for your son. You didn't even consider the consequences of the moment, let alone the long term consequences, more on those later. Was the music loud? Probably was. Are you a code enforcement officer? Cop? Didn't think so. People with such short fuses shouldn't be carrying guns in public. You know what your kid learned from this? Dad is a hothead. Because of dad, we have to move. Because of dad, mommy is mad and cries. Pressing charges? don't think about it. The police will have as much cause to arrest him, as they will you and imagine it will be a two for one deal. Want a LEO to take interest in this from a forum? Never happen, that isn't how it works. This is what is called a biased personal involvement and your little self initiated problem isn't worth any LEO's job.
Here is what you have to look forward to. Your ex is going to document this incident. You want to bet that here lawyer isn't going to hear about it? Think about all the ammunition you just gave her for the next custody redetermination.
Think about this, think about what you did through the filter of long term consequences and the next time your anger is engaging before your brain has then put the brakes on and start thinking before you make an even bigger mistake with bigger consequences.
You are the reason I logged back on. This ghastly reply stuck with me, as you are representative of all that is wrong with this situation. To think you would speak the words you did in a gun forum is an outright disgrace.
You would deny my right to a CCW that I am not even seeking because I at first mildly stood up to a man who is literally terrorizing a neighborhood? You would portray me as the aggressor despite the stated facts? Call the fu*king police department I mentioned and check on the deal.
You sound like someone who thinks he is an authority on something he know absolutely nothing about. You are an embarrassment and a discredit to gun owners.
John_Wayne777
05-20-09, 22:19
Alrighty then.....We've jumped the shark.
Everybody take a break from the thread for a little while.
Chest pounding incidents, or recollection of fact relevant to a specific thread?
Maybe I shouldn't ask, but how about you back this statement up and allow me to defend myself?
Defend yourself from/to who? No need from/to me. You're just a guy. I'm just a guy. We both like weapons. If it's a major concern and a point you desperately need proven search back your own posts. I'm headed out of town tomorrow and don't have the time but if you really want me too, I can oblige at a later date. However, it will be privately as it isn't a concern of the general populace.
I feel you are missing the point. I want to help. I have a child and understand the attachment/love level but I'm not going to get involved in demeaning discussion or an argument over it. PM if you want to discuss. Otherwise, I'll just take it as you want to leave it alone and move on. Both I am 100% ok with. :cool:
randyman_ar
05-20-09, 22:22
Did I do the right thing?
HELL YEAH YOU DID THE RIGHT THING!!!
My hats off to you for taking a stand. Too many of us (myself included) would have turned a deaf ear. Bravo Bravo Bravo!!! Job well done!
DangerMouse
05-20-09, 22:44
Yeah I don't know what the laws are where you live are like... but I open carry everywhere I go and if people start shit with me, it never goes far once they see I carry. They back off and usually just spout profanities as they leave the area. I don't say a word usually and never indicate my gun... I'm assuming they think I'm a cop since I definitely have that cop look... short hair, nicely trimmed moustache very broad shoulders and huge forearms... makes me look burly even if I am only 5'10''.
The good thing is that even when they get mouthy and stick around... I let them know that it would be a good idea to just let it be.
The trick is, never ever start anything when you carry... just finish it if necessary.
The trick is, never ever start anything when you carry... just finish it if necessary.
Thanks for the advice, but this is NJ and only a select few get to carry here. Maybe take that burly body of yours and keep it in fighting shape in case you get caught without your weapon.
Yeah I don't know what the laws are where you live are like... but I open carry everywhere I go and if people start shit with me, it never goes far once they see I carry. They back off and usually just spout profanities as they leave the area. I don't say a word usually and never indicate my gun... I'm assuming they think I'm a cop since I definitely have that cop look... short hair, nicely trimmed moustache very broad shoulders and huge forearms... makes me look burly even if I am only 5'10''.
The good thing is that even when they get mouthy and stick around... I let them know that it would be a good idea to just let it be.
The trick is, never ever start anything when you carry... just finish it if necessary.
LMAO... no no... NOW we've jumped the shark...................
Thomas M-4
05-20-09, 23:06
Alrighty then.....We've jumped the shark.
Everybody take a break from the thread for a little while.
John Wayne is right listen to him.
Safety hit as been under a lot of stress and loss of sleep not the 2 best combination's to carry out this thread right now.
Thomas M-4
05-20-09, 23:08
LMAO... no no... NOW we've jumped the shark...................
LMAO +2 :D
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