PDA

View Full Version : GPS System Close to Breakdown?



K.L. Davis
05-19-09, 20:09
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/may/19/gps-close-to-breakdown

tinman44
05-20-09, 00:22
guess i better polish up on my sense of direction, and perhaps a little navigation practice is in order

K.L. Davis
05-20-09, 13:42
My belief is that GPS is not a good choice for wilderness navigation... it works well for open water and flight nav, and in locations where the routing for roads has already been figured; but, off the beaten path, I'll take a good topo anytime, remember, the GPS will walk you off a cliff if you let it.

The_War_Wagon
05-24-09, 18:29
I never got into GPS personally - my old analog unit still works just fine. :D

http://www.publishyouropinion.com/Publish%20Your%20Opinion.jpg

Saginaw79
05-24-09, 22:18
Yep, Im still using a lensatic compass and even some pace counter beads

Wild Bill
06-08-09, 23:22
So training can overcome technology? :D

Wild Bill

riddlin
06-09-09, 01:02
So training can overcome technology? :D

Wild Bill

Say it aint so!!!

Saginaw79
06-09-09, 09:48
So training can overcome technology? :D

Wild Bill

Blasphemy! :eek:

RogerinTPA
06-09-09, 11:06
I never got into GPS personally - my old analog unit still works just fine. :D

http://www.publishyouropinion.com/Publish%20Your%20Opinion.jpg

Until the magnetic poles shift on Dec 21, 2012, then you'll be screwed!:p

http://www.december212012.com/

FMF_Doc
06-19-09, 14:15
I still use the the old compass and map, I never got into GPS and only recently got a cell phone because of work. The low tech way always worked before and didn't stop just because of some satellite gizmos becoming popular.

chadbag
06-23-09, 02:31
My belief is that GPS is not a good choice for wilderness navigation... it works well for open water and flight nav, and in locations where the routing for roads has already been figured; but, off the beaten path, I'll take a good topo anytime, remember, the GPS will walk you off a cliff if you let it.

I am not an expert on GPS. Having said that, I have friends who use GPS for wilderness hunting etc. They consider them invaluable. They do not necessarily replace the compass and topo, but augment them. We are not talking the auto navigation units, but hiking and outdoors ones that have topo maps built in that can be used to keep track of where you are going. You can get waymarks as you go that will remember your location so when you return you can use the GPS to help you get out on the same path you went in. Obviously, common sense needs to be used in combination with this sort of technology.

Smuckatelli
06-23-09, 09:54
Need to be the spoiler here.

Once they got all of the satelittes in orbit, problems in the wilderness or built up areas pretty much went away. You need 4 satelittes to get an accurate fix including elevation. 3 satelittes will give you an accurate horizontal position. There is a higher probability of walking off a cliff with a compass using dead reckoning at night or limited visibility than with a GPS receiver.

With a GPS, you get your fix and azimuth and go, it doesn't have to be turned on. You don't have to reshoot azimuths do resections or intersections, that is all done by the receiver.

In other words, you can focus on your mission at hand, you don't have distractors. Working as a team, it's good to go that one person is tagged as the navigator/compassman/paceman. As a team, others are covering sectors and keeping situational awareness of the "terrain." As an individual, running those duties will take away from you primary focus.

Navigating with a GPS is the same as navigating with a compass and map. Using defined terrain limited features (usually linear) helps take out the passman requirement, same goes with the GPS, terrain limiting features are used so that you don't have to keep the reciever in your hand where your weapon is, there is also a reason why the compassman usually his weapon when navigating.

In 21 years of service, I've owned more compasses than combat boots....I'm anal about navigation. I'm also leveraging technology whenever possible.

K.L. Davis
06-23-09, 15:07
Sure... GPS is cool, I have said many, many times that "I don't know how I lived without it" -- but I did, lived with OMEGA, LORAN, GNSS/GPS/DGPS and holding on for eLORAN.

Still, in every real field trial that I have seen... where experienced and well trained teams went up against each other; one team fitted with only hand held GPS and the other with only a Topo and a Compass... the later was always quicker and had less course deviation.

I agree completely with leveraging technology... I have spent a lot of time stomping my little combat boot and telling Uncle Sugar to cut loose with some cheddar and equip the troops -- but I am also the first to champion the idea that technology is not an inherent replacement for anything.

But like has already been said, most folks tend to use a handheld receiver as sort of a fancy compass, it does the hard part and points them in the right direction, then they usually reference a topo map, get a terrain reference, find some lateral features or guides, set a backstop and head off... when it is in your pocket, it could be a GPS, a Lensatic Compass or Schroedinger's Cat -- but given my druthers, if I can pick only one, it will still be the *old school* map and compass.

Smuckatelli
06-24-09, 07:12
I'll repost later, my 5 year old decided to hit the post button before I finished

Smuckatelli
06-24-09, 11:23
Sure... GPS is cool

It seems that many of the anti GPS crowd is anti because they don't fully understand the capabilities of the tech. This is pretty much the norm throughout history. From guns replacing the sword to automobiles replacing the horse. Some of the concerns that have been voiced here, were concerns back in 1990 when the first widespread use occurred during DS/DS in Kuwait. When I returned from DS, the first thing that I did was take out a small business loan and purchased a Magellan 1000 for $3500.00 USD. The reason for that expenditure was because for the first time in my life I did not have access to a map. The maps that they issued to us were a mix of roadmaps, tourist maps, and 1:100,000 DMA products. A lot of things happen between contour lines that even 1:10,000 maps don't pick up.


I have said many, many times that "I don't know how I lived without it" -- but I did, lived with OMEGA, LORAN, GNSS/GPS/DGPS and holding on for eLORAN.

The same can be said about anything and almost everything that we own. You could replace the nav aids that you liswith cars, boats, guns........



Still, in every real field trial that I have seen... where experienced and well trained teams went up against each other; one team fitted with only hand held GPS and the other with only a Topo and a Compass... the later was always quicker and had less course deviation.

The 'less deviation' leads me to think that this was a compass couse using the ole ammo can posts:D

If so than depending on the KSAs of the GPS operator, the compass and topo team will be quicker than the GPS bubbas. It's kinda like shooting 1000yds with a carbine, is it possible, yes for some but the chance of being successful increases with the length of the barrel.

There are somethings that a map and compass will never be faster at; location identification. Running a hip shoot with 81s while on the move, getting the initial location for the company once all boats have left the ship to begin your 20 mile run to the BLS. Running multiple fire missions with multiple platforms while on the move.



I agree completely with leveraging technology... I have spent a lot of time stomping my little combat boot and telling Uncle Sugar to cut loose with some cheddar and equip the troops -- but I am also the first to champion the idea that technology is not an inherent replacement for anything..

Me thinks you have the wrong idea about the GPS. It was never designed to replace the map and compass.



But like has already been said, most folks tend to use a handheld receiver as sort of a fancy compass, it does the hard part and points them in the right direction, then they usually reference a topo map, get a terrain reference, find some lateral features or guides, set a backstop and head off... when it is in your pocket, it could be a GPS, a Lensatic Compass or Schroedinger's Cat -- but given my druthers, if I can pick only one, it will still be the *old school* map and compass.

Here's an interesting result of the proliferation of GPS receivers; Topo maps are becoming way more accurate. The map makers are being held to a higher standard now because of how accurate these devces are.

Hell, even your location, you list the map datum.;)

K.L. Davis
06-24-09, 12:23
It seems that...
All very valid points, and given the situations that you present, I agree... I have called for fire using a topo and orientation, as well as ran an aiming circle; neither is a replacement for Aegis.

However, this forum is about survival and fieldcraft and it seems the discussion was about individual preparedness for navigation without GNSS...

insert some cliche "off course" pun here

Smuckatelli
06-24-09, 15:34
However, this forum is about survival and fieldcraft and it seems the discussion was about individual preparedness for navigation without GNSS...

insert some cliche "off course" pun here

I'm tracking brother;)

The initial post with a link and no thoughts/comment pretty much left the door open as to how GPS Systems impact could aid or hinder preparedness.

I only opened my suck because the wilderness LOS and leading off a cliff were accurate in the early 90s but the stuff out there now is a hell of a lot more capable.

FWIW; The first belt loop my 7 year old earned in cub Scouts was the Map & Compass.......my azimuth is okay, just didn't want the old school thoughts to limit people's choices.

I'm not a techno-geek.....I still have two stock Colts, no intent to put extra gear on them until the family becomes proficeint with the iron sights.

Smuckatelli
06-24-09, 16:52
I have called for fire using a topo and orientation, as well as ran an aiming circle; neither is a replacement for Aegis.

What's Aegis?

K.L. Davis
06-24-09, 20:38
Aegis Combat System (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/systems/aegis.htm)

Smuckatelli
06-24-09, 21:10
Aegis Combat System (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/systems/aegis.htm)

Okay...you threw me for a loop there. I don't see the segue between Aegis, aiming circles, topo maps, and orientation.:confused:

K.L. Davis
06-24-09, 22:26
Humor - Intentionally disproportionate comparison of an old practice to the newest technology; presented with the intention of injecting levity through a veiled, yet sardonic juxtaposition of the two wildly dissimilar technologies.

Or, I was trying to make a funny :D

Smuckatelli
06-27-09, 12:07
Humor - Intentionally disproportionate comparison of an old practice to the newest technology; presented with the intention of injecting levity through a veiled, yet sardonic juxtaposition of the two wildly dissimilar technologies.

Or, I was trying to make a funny :D

I'm part Polish, left handed, was an Infantryman for 21 years and Holiday Inn won't let me stay there.......

Takes a while for me to figure things out;)

ZDL
07-07-09, 19:53
***********

bkb0000
07-07-09, 20:23
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/may/19/gps-close-to-breakdown

hmm.. my magellon somethingerother recently started trying to tell me my location is 50 miles east of where i actually am... recalibrating does nothing, picking up more GSSs does nothing- only manually entering my actual coordinates fixes it.

kmrtnsn
07-07-09, 21:17
no problem with any of mine. The one in my car knows what lane I am in.

Smuckatelli
07-08-09, 08:58
hmm.. my magellon somethingerother recently started trying to tell me my location is 50 miles east of where i actually am... recalibrating does nothing, picking up more GSSs does nothing- only manually entering my actual coordinates fixes it.

What model # is it?

Check the Magellon site for software updates. Are you using it in conjunction with a map, if so, you may not have the right datum set on the receiver.

If no updates, try setting it back to default...final step is to take the battery out and short the connectors with a paper clip.

kennith13
07-31-09, 13:57
Need to be the spoiler here.

Once they got all of the satelittes in orbit, problems in the wilderness or built up areas pretty much went away. You need 4 satelittes to get an accurate fix including elevation. 3 satelittes will give you an accurate horizontal position. There is a higher probability of walking off a cliff with a compass using dead reckoning at night or limited visibility than with a GPS receiver.

With a GPS, you get your fix and azimuth and go, it doesn't have to be turned on. You don't have to reshoot azimuths do resections or intersections, that is all done by the receiver.

In other words, you can focus on your mission at hand, you don't have distractors. Working as a team, it's good to go that one person is tagged as the navigator/compassman/paceman. As a team, others are covering sectors and keeping situational awareness of the "terrain." As an individual, running those duties will take away from you primary focus.

Navigating with a GPS is the same as navigating with a compass and map. Using defined terrain limited features (usually linear) helps take out the passman requirement, same goes with the GPS, terrain limiting features are used so that you don't have to keep the reciever in your hand where your weapon is, there is also a reason why the compassman usually his weapon when navigating.

In 21 years of service, I've owned more compasses than combat boots....I'm anal about navigation. I'm also leveraging technology whenever possible.

That is precisely why GPS exists. Great post.

It is there to help augment your navigational capabilities. Used properly, it can make a massive difference in a unit's ability to navigate difficult terrain at a fast pace, with less error buildup along the way. In the end, like the compass and the map, it is only another weapon in the navigational arsenal. They are all to be used in concert.

The GPS allows one man to more readily accomplish what a team can accomplish. When fielded with a team, the GPS increases their effectiveness by a comparable degree. They are not meant to be used by themselves, but they can be in a pinch.

I love my GPS units. I loved them in the military, and I still love them in the civilian world. I use them with my other navigational tools to increase my positional awareness, and increase the speed and accuracy of my navigation.

Barron Fields
08-30-09, 15:16
1) You can get waymarks as you go that will remember your location so when you return you can use the GPS to help you get out on the same path you went in.

2) Obviously, common sense needs to be used in combination with this sort of technology.

1) Works real well for navigating the magrove islands on the gulf side of Florida.

2) Don't be zoomed out too far on return and always carry spare batteries.*




*:p

ra2bach
10-23-09, 09:49
Until the magnetic poles shift on Dec 21, 2012, then you'll be screwed!:p

http://www.december212012.com/


no, then he just has to walk backwards...

:p

Belmont31R
10-26-09, 05:57
They are just another tool in the toolbag. They don't replace anything.



They are especially handy if you are somewhat unfamiliar with the terrain, terrain lacks many features, at night, marking exact positions of things to come back to later, quicker which means less time figuring out where you are and where you need to go.


I also love my Garmin I put in my car. No more printing off google maps and trying to figure out which road to turn at...Just type in the address and go.

Trey73
12-03-09, 18:54
So I tattooed my cache co-ordinates on the bottom of my feet for nothing?:p

Gutshot John
12-04-09, 10:56
Technology is great but even if the GPS system doesn't break down you're still reliant on battery life.

I agree with others that it enhances capability, it doesn't replace it.

Learn how to land-nav the old fashioned way, definitely know how to use map/compass, measure distance and factor in terrain. It takes a lot of practice but your confidence in the field increases exponentially.

For myself I do the measurements the old fashioned way first and then I confirm with my Garmin if I'm not 100%. This definitely extends battery life.

BAC
12-09-09, 11:12
My belief is that GPS is not a good choice for wilderness navigation... it works well for open water and flight nav, and in locations where the routing for roads has already been figured; but, off the beaten path, I'll take a good topo anytime, remember, the GPS will walk you off a cliff if you let it.

Ed Stafford (the dude walking the Amazon from its beginning to end (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1233384/The-REAL-king-jungle.html)) disagrees pretty strongly about the usefulness of the GPS. He talks about it more here (http://www.livinginperu.com/travel-701-amazon-walking-amazon).


-B

Irish
12-09-09, 11:41
Ed Stafford (the dude walking the Amazon from its beginning to end (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1233384/The-REAL-king-jungle.html)) disagrees pretty strongly about the usefulness of the GPS. He talks about it more here (http://www.livinginperu.com/travel-701-amazon-walking-amazon).


-B

2 great articles, thank you. As someone who's spent a lot of time in Brazil, Peru & Argentina I can tell you this is no easy feat! I am extremely impressed by this man and his adventure and I hope he makes it home safe.

SteveS
06-10-10, 21:27
Good thing I learned navigation with a compass and a topo map from the Boy Scouts.

Abraxas
06-10-10, 21:38
My belief is that GPS is not a good choice for wilderness navigation... it works well for open water and flight nav, and in locations where the routing for roads has already been figured; but, off the beaten path, I'll take a good topo anytime, remember, the GPS will walk you off a cliff if you let it.

A Marine Corps buddy of mine told me stories of when he worked some sort of rescue in Washington state of going out to rescue people that were lost even though they had a working GPS with them.

Avenger29
06-11-10, 00:46
How about we go back to the subject of the original post...


I remember the original articles about the question of the future of GPS coming out. To tell you the truth, I was shocked. I thought that this was one of the items that would have been very high priority to keep working and keep satellites up for, considering the military use of GPS, not to mention the use by emergency services and taxpayers.

If you haven't heard by now, LORAN is shut down...I still think we should have kept it up as a GPS backup.

Been a long damn time since I've flown a course with an E6B and a compass...



A Marine Corps buddy of mine told me stories of when he worked some sort of rescue in Washington state of going out to rescue people that were lost even though they had a working GPS with them.

You're always going to have dumbasses. I know a person or two that would starve if they were in front of a McDonald's.

K.L. Davis
06-11-10, 10:07
Ed Stafford (the dude walking the Amazon from its beginning to end (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1233384/The-REAL-king-jungle.html)) disagrees pretty strongly about the usefulness of the GPS. He talks about it more here (http://www.livinginperu.com/travel-701-amazon-walking-amazon).
-B
I agree that GPS is wonderful... I have zero problem with using technology, I can still figure TDs for LORAN and have been using GPS since it was turned on - I still maintain, that if I had to make a choice between a GPS and Map & Compass, I will take the later.

One problem with folks using GPS, is that most of their units seem to run out of magic - Mr. Stafford made great preparations and is using GPS technology to assist with mapping and plotting, and quite honestly, there is no better choice. My GPS is loaded with all sorts of maps, waypoints, routes, tracks, aerial photos and even maps that I have made of the local area. At this point, it is really more a GPS enabled mapping device than anything, it is chocked-full of magic.

I seriously could not begin to count the number of people that I have had to go find who had a GPS with them, and they were able to ascertain exactly one thing from having that GPS device: their current location - but beyond that, it offered them nothing. Often times, all they had was a GPS receiver (one that can not load maps), but somehow expect it to be able to tell them how to get home?

A GPS device that has mapping and routing ability is without a doubt the most accurate and versatile tool of its kind... but certainly not without its flaws. I have probably six handheld and three vehicle GPS devices, plus a laptop based mapping system. I would not even think about getting rid of any of it; but I have to recognize that stuff for what it is, and the bottom line is that none of this stuff, map, GPS, compass, any of it, is any better than the person holding it.

In an emergency situation, I am not going to leave a handheld GPS behind, but I also have a rather well marked up set of topos for my area - and I can always use the GPS for barter ;)

As to the original intent of this thread: Solar Storms (http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2010/04jun_swef/)

peruna
06-11-10, 11:06
Augmentation...not substitution.

Even the boys in my son's Cub Scout den know this (cause that's what I taught them)........

RogerinTPA
06-11-10, 14:23
A Marine Corps buddy of mine told me stories of when he worked some sort of rescue in Washington state of going out to rescue people that were lost even though they had a working GPS with them.


I read about that a while back when Yuppie backpackers, with no outdoor experience, pushing the panic button on their GPSs when things got a little too uncomfortable for them. Costing S&R hundreds of thousands of dollars. Those states are starting to charge them for the full cost of the S&R effort.

RogerinTPA
06-11-10, 14:25
Augmentation...not substitution.

Even the boys in my son's Cub Scout den know this (cause that's what I taught them)........


Exactly. Anyone venturing out should be an expert on the HHM (Hand Held Map), lensetic compass, coupled with the Mk-1 Eyeball.

tracker722
06-11-10, 19:22
**********************

hatidua
06-12-10, 21:35
A GPS unit helped us find the restaurant for dinner tonight.....but I've entered more than one coastal inlet by boat when the GPS said we were going over land :eek:

rat31465
06-13-10, 08:36
As long as our Military is so heavily invested in weapons systems reliant upon GPS technology...I don't forsee GPS going away anytime in the near future.
I use a GPS daily on my job and in participating in the game of GeoCaching and love it.
However if I am heading out into the deep dark woods, I will always carry a magnetic compass and at least a rudimentary map anything less would be irresponsible in my opinion.

762xIan
06-20-10, 16:00
From the article:


"In recent years, the Air Force has struggled to successfully build GPS satellites within cost and schedule goals," said the report. "It encountered significant technical problems … [and] struggled with a different contractor."

The first replacement GPS satellite was due to launch at the beginning of 2007, but has been delayed several times and is now scheduled to go into orbit in November this year – almost three years late.

WTF? Of all the things that money gets spent on...this is just a little to important to screw up.

Either way, my son (he's 12) has had a good time learning orienteering with the scouts. He surprised me with how fast he learned how to read a map and use a compass.