View Full Version : 5 Bham cops fired video
Thomas M-4
05-22-09, 10:30
What do you guys think. http://www.bhamweekly.com/2009/05/20/five-bpd-cops-fired-after-brutal-video-surfaces/
John_Wayne777
05-22-09, 10:48
They messed up.
The jackass who nearly KILLED that officer with the spike strips deserves a hell of a lot worse than what he got, IMO.
There's a good chance that he was trying to avoid the spike strip more than trying to hit the cop. I would probably have wanted to inflict some pain to, but I would think that flipping the van and ejecting the guy would be enough.
John_Wayne777
05-22-09, 11:02
There's a good chance that he was trying to avoid the spike strip more than trying to hit the cop.
Looking at the video it appears to me that the driver of the white van goes around the dark import car and then makes a bee line right for the officer before the spike strip is even out...this despite the fact that there appeared to be open road directly in front of him.
Thomas M-4
05-22-09, 11:25
Looking at the video john wayne is right the road is open in front of him. I do belive he tried to run the cop over.
Looking at the video Its hard to tell but I can only make out 3 cops beating him.
the1911fan
05-22-09, 11:54
There's a good chance that he was trying to avoid the spike strip more than trying to hit the cop. I would probably have wanted to inflict some pain to, but I would think that flipping the van and ejecting the guy would be enough.
The BG is a career criminal and you're willing to go with the theory that he was only trying to avoid the spike strip and NOT attempting to hit the officer...have you ever been to prison or are you a lawyer?? That might explain your sympathetic reasoning. The BG had plenty of options besides driving directly at the officer with the spike strips.
In the end they should not have approached in that manner and instead completed the arrest in a controlled professional mannner. I've seen plenty of active resistors get arrested and taken into custody with the use of mildly violent techniques. In twenty years I've never seen a totally unconcious person get beat down. He might have it coming but it's not worth losing your job or getting charged and the worst part is MF'er did'nt even feel any of it.
MarshallDodge
05-22-09, 12:23
By law, what the officers did was wrong but these car chases need end NOW!
Enough of the spike strips and PIT maneuvers, I would like to see them use lethal force immediately to stop a vehicle. The moment the criminal behind the wheel decides to run, disobeying all laws, and endangering my family, it's time for deadly force.
Just create a good old fashioned road block setup and if the suspect does not stop then end the threat.
The BG is a career criminal and you're willing to go with the theory that he was only trying to avoid the spike strip and NOT attempting to hit the officer...have you ever been to prison or are you a lawyer?? That might explain your sympathetic reasoning.
I presume that you suggested the poster was a lawyer in the context of his potentially playing devil's advocate. If the suggestion is that lawyers are naturally sympathetic to crooks, you are on the road to insulting more than a few members of this board, myself included.
Thomas M-4
05-22-09, 12:34
I have looked at the video 4 times in full screen I can only make out 3 officers swinging on him. The officer wearing the tan shirt that pushed another officer out of the way just so that he can swing on the perps head that guy messed up BIG TIME! Funny thing is I am almost 99% sure thats a hoover uniform.The cop that he tried to run down was also a hoover cop.
The beating is 100% justified in my opinion.
But we live in a ****head nation.
the problem is not whether or not the cops "should" or "shouldn't" have hit the ****er... the problem is that EVERYTHING is on camera these days.
Thomas M-4
05-22-09, 13:05
The beating is 100% justified in my opinion.
But we live in a ****head nation.
I agree but he was knocked out and he didn't feel damn thing If he was still moving around crawling or standing I would total beat him down. The thing is I can only see 3 officers swinging on him why did they fire 5 and of the 3 one of them stoped when another officer grabbed his jacket to pull him back. The sad thing is At least 2 of the officers maybe a 3rd one got fired over what??
EzGoingKev
05-22-09, 13:13
The beating is 100% justified in my opinion.
But we live in a ****head nation.
And some some of the ****heads commit crimes while on camera.
The beating is 100% justified in my opinion.
I would agree it was understandable...but not justified.
They should be fired(any involved in striking him).
Whether or not he deserved it is irrelevant.If they arent able to control themselves better than that under stress.They have no business being law enforcement IMO.
Others manage to do similar takedowns all of the time without beating an unconscious"suspect".It served no purpose other than a little satisfaction at the total cost of professionalism.They did more damage to their fellow officers arround the nation(not to mention their own department) than they did to the perp.
I am sick of bad guys running in cars hurting others putting others lives in danger and worse etc...
I say for every car that is within 100 yards they get a attempted murder charge on each passenger !!
OR
they pull them out on the dash cam and put a round in the head !!!!! and show it on TV that night for all to see and say when you run this is what happens to you !!!!!!
sadly though the cops should not have beat him as this will just give the crooks and lefties more ammo to use against them
I say I wish they could :)
as said not justifiable but I am sure understandable like Jerm said above
I think I would have said whhhoooops I could not break in time that is why I accidentally ran him over
I am sick of people like this guy getting away
in my eyes it for sure looked like he wanted to hit the other cop !!!!
Thomas M-4
05-22-09, 13:55
[QUOTE=Jerm;374449]I would agree it was understandable...but not justified.
They should be fired(any involved in striking him).
I don't agree totally with that. I can only see 3 officers swinging on him. If i am in a chase and the adrenalin is pumping and you cant see every thing that is happening you run up to a suspect with 2 or 3 cops swinging on him and you take 1 MAYBE 2 swings and you notice the subject is not resisting and you stop and step back why should you be FIRED.
Am I messing something I only see 3 cops swinging on him and 1 of the 3 stops when his jacket is pulled.
Don Robison
05-22-09, 13:57
The beating is 100% justified in my opinion.
But we live in a ****head nation.
+1
Too bad the car didn't end up on the POS's head.
John_Wayne777
05-22-09, 13:58
By law, what the officers did was wrong but these car chases need end NOW!
Enough of the spike strips and PIT maneuvers, I would like to see them use lethal force immediately to stop a vehicle. The moment the criminal behind the wheel decides to run, disobeying all laws, and endangering my family, it's time for deadly force.
A PIT can be considered lethal force. Departmental policies vary, but in mostmost an officer has to get clearance to use it from his chain of command. During the chase I would imagine it's a lot easier to try and stop the suspect vehicle with the
cruiser than to try and engage with a handgun. Shooting out tires does happen, but trying to control a vehicle at high speed AND effectively engage a bad guy with a firearm is a pretty tall order.
John_Wayne777
05-22-09, 14:00
I agree but he was knocked out and he didn't feel damn thing If he was still moving around crawling or standing I would total beat him down. The thing is I can only see 3 officers swinging on him why did they fire 5 and of the 3 one of them stoped when another officer grabbed his jacket to pull him back. The sad thing is At least 2 of the officers maybe a 3rd one got fired over what??
Participating in the beating is one thing. If they attempted to cover up the beating by giving false statements about the incident during the investigation, that would be cause for termination as well. I don't know if that was the case or not, but covering a buddy's butt can land you in as much hot water as participating in the beatdown.
John_Wayne777
05-22-09, 14:02
they pull them out on the dash cam and put a round in the head !!!!! and show it on TV that night for all to see and say when you run this is what happens to you !!!!!!
While I don't really have much sympathy for the sorts of people who try to run down cops, I don't think summary executions on the side of the road is an acceptable solution to that problem.
I dont think that they should have been fired. Beating someone that is already unconscious is somewhat ridiculous, and a bit much. But I also understand the flip side. I think that only some sort of slap on the hand is all that was warranted for the officers. On a personal note I think that the only thing they did wrong was not wait. They should have waited for him to wake up, then kick his ass.;).
stanlyonjr
05-22-09, 14:11
Like others have said, its all on video. Nothing like a good ghetto stomping on a guy who's out cold. What I don't understand is these guys have seen enough fellow cops canned for the same thing, yet they do it anyway. It just makes people hate cops even more. I completely understand the cops being pumped up but... All the hack lawyers out there will be busting down this guys door to represent him for free on this one. They just made the cops job everywhere harder.
Shame on the suspect for not wearing his seatbelt...
Humans displaying human nature towards a sub-human.
woodandsteel
05-22-09, 14:43
There is no doubt in my mind that the driver tried to run down the officer with the spike strips. I do have to question the tactics that the officer was using with the strips. (Personally, I would have stayed behind the squad car and tossed them out) But, that looks like an attempted murder charge, in my opinion.
But, the arrest afterwards, does not look good.
And, take a look at the end of the video. Doesn't it look like the one officer looks back at his squad and sees that his video is running? Then he runs back to shut it off?
I just hope this doesn't result in a lawsuit that makes the life long criminal the richest guy in the cell block.
woodandsteel
05-22-09, 14:44
Shame on the suspect for not wearing his seatbelt...
I actually lol'd at that.
you run up to a suspect with 2 or 3 cops swinging on him and you take 1 MAYBE 2 swings and you notice the subject is not resisting and you stop and step back why should you be FIRED.
I dont have a problem with that being open to review.I'm not against LEO's doing whatever's needed to bring a dangerous individual into compliance/submission.If they're resisting(or believed to be)...swing away.
Even if their resistance seems feeble and they're getting worked over by half a dozen officers...Fine by me.Stop presenting a threat.
It's when a suspect/perp(whatever) is obviously subdued and/or in compliance(cuffed and laying on their face or ko'd for example) and guys feel the need to get some satisfaction...that crosses the line IMO.
Again,it's understandable.But it wouldnt be acceptable for me and it definately shouldnt be for LE.
Beating someone that is already unconscious is somewhat ridiculous,
Yet somehow appropriate and called for in my eyes. :p
Yet somehow appropriate and called for in my eyes. :p
Like I said they should have waited for him to wake up first:D
The beating was wrong, but John Waynes comment about summary execution, right there and then I agree with. The tape recording would be enough. Kind of like Judge Dred
Of course they should be fired, as should everyone involved in the cover up/ piss poor investigation. This incident occurred over a year ago and no action was taken until an investigator viewed the tape while prepairing for the POS's trail. Having said that, don't tell me that guy was not trying to kill the LEO that threw out the spike strips. Hopefully when the POS collects his financial judgement he'll have just enough time to sign it over to the LEO he hit.
Although the dude probably deserved a beating, I'd expect the officers involved to be remain professional. They deserved to get fired just as much as the turd deserves to rot in jail. Perhaps even more so, as they're held to a higher standard.
Thomas M-4
05-22-09, 16:03
Participating in the beating is one thing. If they attempted to cover up the beating by giving false statements about the incident during the investigation, that would be cause for termination as well. I don't know if that was the case or not, but covering a buddy's butt can land you in as much hot water as participating in the beatdown.
There has to be more to this. 3 of the cops most certainly did wrong just cant see what the other 2 did. The previous post says it happened over a year ago and the footage was just now found. Bad thing is you cant throw a rock in Bham with out it hitting 3 lawyers and then you will get sued by 4 lawyers.:rolleyes:
I understand wanting to beat the hell out of the guy but can not condone their behavior. I watched the video several times and maybe my eyes are better than other people's cause I do see 3 officers punching and swinging objects while 2 officers kick an unconscious man in the ribs, watch the right side of the screen. There are FIVE LEOs assaulting an unresponsive person, period.
What would happen if something similar had happened to Joe Citizen where somebody ran them off the road and they were knocking the snot out of some guy when LEO shows up? I guarantee they'd be whisked off to jail in no time.
When your job is to enforce laws it does not mean you are above them.
And YES I do understand wanting to stomp up and down on his head but I would've waited til he was awake so he could feel it.
SeriousStudent
05-22-09, 17:08
Prayers sent for the injured officer, that was trying to deploy the spikes. I hope he made a full and complete recovery.
the1911fan
05-22-09, 18:01
I presume that you suggested the poster was a lawyer in the context of his potentially playing devil's advocate. If the suggestion is that lawyers are naturally sympathetic to crooks, you are on the road to insulting more than a few members of this board, myself included.
Methinks Thou Doth Protest Too Much!!
Sympathy- the act or capacity of entering into or sharing the feelings or interests of another , tendency to favor or support.
Advocate- advocate is one who speaks on behalf of another person, especially in a legal context. A supporter or defender, One that pleads in another's behalf.
And they're not crooks...they're clients..until they are convicted, right?
Alternative theories, defense strategies;)
There are all kinds of attorneys, I was specifically referencing criminal defense attorneys.
What would happen if something similar had happened to Joe Citizen where somebody ran them off the road and they were knocking the snot out of some guy when LEO shows up? I guarantee they'd be whisked off to jail in no time.
When your job is to enforce laws it does not mean you are above them.
And YES I do understand wanting to stomp up and down on his head but I would've waited til he was awake so he could feel it.
Good points
LittleRedToyota
05-22-09, 18:11
There are all kinds of attorneys, I was specifically referencing criminal defense attorneys.
who, if you are ever falsely accused of a crime, you will probably grow to like very much...
who, if you are ever falsely accused of a crime, you will probably grow to like very much...
Exactly! Criminal defense attorneys get a bad rap until your the accused. Simply look at the wrongly convicted that have been released over the last 10 years due to DNA evidence.
A lot of times there are other angles of video which show aggressive movement from the suspect, but this video clearly showed that the driver was clearly not a threat. Obvioulsy, adreneline was a factor in this incident...however...the officer that continued to strike the suspect in the head after all other officers backed off, should certainly be charged further. And the other officers were negligent for not stepping in to stop him.
The department had terminated 50 years of combined service due to 10 seconds of injustice, birmingham officers and as many as a half-dozen supervisors saw the video over the past year, but none reported it, supervisors may face discipline, and the Alabama Bureau of Investigation will review possible criminal charges.
District Attorney said the tape of the beating surfaced unexpectedly as prosecutors were preparing to try Warren, prosecutors had a video of the chase but the beating was not on the copy we had.
Prosecutor wanted to play the video for the jury but, for technical reasons, she needed another copy and asked for the original, deliberately tampered with the evidence in their handling of the video prior to the criminal trial. As horrific as the beating is, the deliberate tampering of evidence is just as horrific.
I thought the officers showed incredible restraint. I'm surprised the beating was over so fast.
Exactly! Criminal defense attorneys get a bad rap until your the accused. Simply look at the wrongly convicted that have been released over the last 10 years due to DNA evidence.
I guess those criminal defense lawyers did those not guilty of those particular crimes a good job? If they were convicted anyway they were of little or no benefit.
Frequently what is legal is not just, and what is just is not legal. Sometimes there is a greater good. Too bad that tape didn't get lost or damaged many months ago.
GLOCKMASTER
05-22-09, 19:27
These guys were out of control and totally lost it. This guy was not a threat so why the beating? Punishment is for a judge to decide and they deserve what they get. These types make the rest look bad period and I get pissed when I see stupid shit like this. They are suppose to act more professional than this as that is what seperates us from the scum.
Controlling your post chase emotions is critical and will save your life and others. Going into a post chase high risk stop gives you an opportunity to slow down, breathe, take in what's going on, process it and get your emotions under control. With the post chase training that our members are receiving today they are better and safer.
I have no problem working under the eye of a camera as I had one for six years when I was assigned to the interdiction team. It saved me ten times more than it hurt me. The key is controlling yourself and your emotions. It's nothing personal, it's just business.
Of course the ejection through the window was nice a touch.;)
just my .02 and YMMV......
Frequently what is legal is not just, and what is just is not legal. Sometimes there is a greater good. Too bad that tape didn't get lost or damaged many months ago.
So are you personally advocating committing felonies just as long as it is done to cover up out of control LEOs. Perhaps it is just me but I kind of like the laws to apply equally to everyone across the board. I am continually amazed with how many supporters of the 2ND amendment want to disregard the rest of the Bill of Rights.
I guess those criminal defense lawyers did those not guilty of those particular crimes a good job? If they were convicted anyway they were of little or no benefit.
Totally ridiculous reply, the type of DNA testing that was needed to prove their innocence was not available at the time of their convictions. Just pray that you will never have the unchecked power of the state or federal government used against you for something you are not guilty of. But if you do be sure and call an accountant since you have such contempt for criminal defense attorneys.
Interestingly the officers would have been well justified in shooting the rampaging suspect during the moments while he almost hit the officer with the spike strips and if they had no one would have said much, but the beating of a suspect who was ejected from a MVA, unconscious face down in a ditch was over the top.
Had they just dog piled him and wrestled him into cuffs that too would have been fine.
They messed up, and yes I'm a cop and yes I've been in situations similar to that. Adrenaline can and will get to you, tunnel vision is what you are operating on mostly at that point, in your mind its all still a continuation of the chase.
Suxs to be them...
:(
So are you personally advocating committing felonies just as long as it is done to cover up out of control LEOs. Perhaps it is just me but I kind of like the laws to apply equally to everyone across the board. I am continually amazed with how many supporters of the 2ND amendment want to disregard the rest of the Bill of Rights
Totally ridiculous reply, the type of DNA testing that was needed to prove their innocence was not available at the time of their convictions. Just pray that you will never have the unchecked power of the state or federal government used against you for something you are not guilty of. But if you do be sure and call an accountant since you have such contempt for criminal defense attorneys.
Gary, Was your first sentence a statement or a question? If a question the answer is no. I am simply stating that at times we are so legalistic that we lose sight of justice. I can't and won't condone the cops actions as I do not agree with them. But I'm not going to get very excited about it. Scumbags don't rate very high with me.
My comment was directed to the posts about appreciating criminal defense attorneys if you needed one. Even if I needed one I still wouldn't have much use for them. My comments above about justice and legalism are a direct result of those same attorneys. The legal profession has contributed greatly towards our "tail wagging the dog" justice system we now enjoy. I know and like many attorneys. None of them are criminal defense attorneys.
the1911fan
05-22-09, 22:29
who, if you are ever falsely accused of a crime, you will probably grow to like very much...
Like needing a good oncologist...I don't ever want to need such a thing..they serve a purpose but you're in bad shape if you need them
The Dumb Gun Collector
05-22-09, 23:01
Well, it just so happens I am a criminal defense attorney. And I have run into many people who thought that they wouldn't need one.
One of my favorite examples is the cousin of a friend's wife. He was a minister and told her upon her graduation from law school that she should be ashamed for being a public defender. That he couldn't "do that, defend the guilty, etc." Less than a year later he was accused by his wife of molesting his daughter. Of course, there was an ugly divorce going on. He was absolutely ruined. It turned out, she made the whole thing up and eventually admitted it. Her excuse was that she was bi-polar, etc. That little incident gave him a whole knew perspective on criminal defense.
As for the incident. I don't think the cops should go to jail but they should be fired. If you can't act like a grown up, you don't need to be a cop.
Well, it just so happens I am a criminal defense attorney. And I have run into many people who thought that they wouldn't need one.
I have a lot of respect for defense attorneys and prosecutors as a whole, on an individual bases well that is a different story;). Both have a tough job and both are VERY necessary, but I despise the ambulance chasers.
There's a good chance that he was trying to avoid the spike strip more than trying to hit the cop. I would probably have wanted to inflict some pain to, but I would think that flipping the van and ejecting the guy would be enough.
It just doesn't seem too bright to step up and try to throw the spike strip directly under the tires of the van. The perp was left the with a split second decision to drive over the spikes or the cop. I wouldn't want to risk my life on the guy doing the right thing. Kind of like when cops sometimes dive into the window of a car taking off from a traffic stop. It's not necessary to put yourself in that situation. That's the same kind of action based on pure adrenaline that led to the beating. Looks like a lot of guys on that force could use a little more training.
And I'm not saying that the perp should ever see the light of day again but meet out punishment in court and not on the roadside. Everybody goes home alive and keeps his job.
Gary, Was your first sentence a statement or a question? If a question the answer is no. I am simply stating that at times we are so legalistic that we lose sight of justice. I can't and won't condone the cops actions as I do not agree with them. But I'm not going to get very excited about it. Scumbags don't rate very high with me.
Sorry about the improper punctuation, it was a question. As to to your statement above in bold, I can't really argue you with that. I just really worry about the average Joe or Sue that might have an encounter with a LEO that has been dealing with said scumbags all day and finally snaps at the wrong time.
My comment was directed to the posts about appreciating criminal defense attorneys if you needed one. Even if I needed one I still wouldn't have much use for them. My comments above about justice and legalism are a direct result of those same attorneys. The legal profession has contributed greatly towards our "tail wagging the dog" justice system we now enjoy. I know and like many attorneys. None of them are criminal defense attorneys.
Fair enough, and I also feel the frustration and hate scumbags
Sorry about the improper punctuation, it was a question. As to to your statement above in bold, I can't really argue you with that. I just really worry about the average Joe or Sue that might have an encounter with a LEO that has been dealing with said scumbags all day and finally snaps at the wrong time.
Fair enough, and I also feel the frustration and hate scumbags
Gary, no worries. I probably worded my first comments poorly. Your comments about some amendments being more important to some than others rings true. It's easy to get worked up and quickly post on an internet forum and not spend the proper amount of time making sure you put the nuances of thought or speech into writing. Of that I plead guilty!
While I don't really have much sympathy for the sorts of people who try to run down cops, I don't think summary executions on the side of the road is an acceptable solution to that problem.
in reality NOPE I agree but in some ways something is going to have to be done
cause when the punk gets out the next day and does this again and kills your child how will you feel ?
I think some peoples viewpoints change once they loose someone to one of these idiots !!!!
and to say well then they will be in jail is to late as your child is already gone !
these kind of thugs do no good in society
rightwingmaniac
05-23-09, 13:33
Like I said they should have waited for him to wake up first:D
yeah, i agree. this would have been my procedure:
1).they should of broke out the smelling salts and popped them under his nose until he wakes up
2). surround him so no one can see, or be a witness
3). yell out very loudly " stop resisting".
4). take turns beating the living shit out of this worthless scumbag.
5). repeat steps 1 and 4 until satisfied
6). go have a beer and celebrate that spike striper didnt get ran over and killed.
yeah, i agree. this would have been my procedure:
1).they should of broke out the smelling salts and popped them under his nose until he wakes up
2). surround him so no one can see, or be a witness
3). yell out very loudly " stop resisting".
4). take turns beating the living shit out of this worthless scumbag.
5). repeat steps 1 and 4 until satisfied
6). go have a beer and celebrate that spike striper didnt get ran over and killed.
So you're advocating brutal, gang like street justice? That's just what I want from people who are supposed to be protecting society from the exact kind of people you described.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-23-09, 14:13
These guys were out of control and totally lost it. This guy was not a threat so why the beating?
Interesting thought, but that has to be one of the shortest beatings on record. Hopefully the prosecutor will follow a line of 'out of control', which is pretty easy to prove wrong by how they walked away. I just watched it again and it is a 10second beating from the first cop slipping and hitting him with the baton, and the last blow. All the time the guy is laying there with his hands under him. There isn't any sound, but I assume they are yelling for him to show there hands. The defense should re-shoot the video and this time have the perp roll over with a gun after a 10 second beating.
If I were the cops, I'd tell the prosecutor he gets a ten second statement, that's it. Everytime they want to show the beating they should have to show at least that posted clip, if not the whole thing in court. My understanding from the Rodney King trial was that they ran just the beating and in slow motion so many times, everyone thinks the beating is far longer then it was in reality.
I would be more than happy if for chases they set a time, distance, or speed limit and rolled a helicopter in with a SAW after that. That would cut this nonsense out.
GLOCKMASTER
05-23-09, 15:10
Interesting thought, but that has to be one of the shortest beatings on record. Hopefully the prosecutor will follow a line of 'out of control', which is pretty easy to prove wrong by how they walked away. I just watched it again and it is a 10second beating from the first cop slipping and hitting him with the baton, and the last blow. All the time the guy is laying there with his hands under him. There isn't any sound, but I assume they are yelling for him to show there hands. The defense should re-shoot the video and this time have the perp roll over with a gun after a 10 second beating.
If I were the cops, I'd tell the prosecutor he gets a ten second statement, that's it. Everytime they want to show the beating they should have to show at least that posted clip, if not the whole thing in court. My understanding from the Rodney King trial was that they ran just the beating and in slow motion so many times, everyone thinks the beating is far longer then it was in reality.
I would be more than happy if for chases they set a time, distance, or speed limit and rolled a helicopter in with a SAW after that. That would cut this nonsense out.
Out of control is a pretty accurate statement. If they were concerned about what was in his hands, that were clearly under his body and out of view, they would have never approached him in that manner. Yes they were out of control, not one officer was making an attempt to get his hands out from under him and behind his back. Also the kicking and punches to the head show they were out of control. Also when the officer that made the first baton strike walked off and made no attempt to secure his hands clearly shows that he did not care what was in the suspects hands or his condition
...I would like to see them use lethal force immediately to stop a vehicle. The moment the criminal behind the wheel decides to run, disobeying all laws, and endangering my family, it's time for deadly force....
First, the beating was unnecessary. Second, lethal force will not solve the problem. It does not stop the vehicle, it merely creates an unguided missile once the driver is incapacitated.
JMHO
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-23-09, 16:15
Out of control is a pretty accurate statement. If they were concerned about what was in his hands, that were clearly under his body and out of view, they would have never approached him in that manner. Yes they were out of control, not one officer was making an attempt to get his hands out from under him and behind his back. Also the kicking and punches to the head show they were out of control. Also when the officer that made the first baton strike walked off and made no attempt to secure his hands clearly shows that he did not care what was in the suspects hands or his condition
Absolutely in control. Every strike landed exactly where they wanted them.
Also doesn't help that he is in the middle of a ditch and below the feet of the officers. Not a LEO, but in all these videos out there, I've never seen officers get down and pull the arms out, they are always above them trying to get them to comply.
I guess this hinges all on the fact that he was knocked out. If he were awake, it would have been kosher to do that to get him to comply?
What is more horrible than the obvious abuse of power is the number of otherwise "my kind of people" advocating Police State tactics - in total contradiction to our Republican form of government. This is also, when we look at the recent damage done to our Constitution & Bill of Rights by both Clinton and Bush in the last 16 years, very frightening... On one hand there is a general "fear Obama & the Democrats" yet here we are endorsing the potential high and heavy-handed response by Fed, State and Local gov'ts.
And it is said by wiser folk than myself that we always have the type of gov't we deserve...
We cannot have it both ways, guys.
SW-Shooter
05-23-09, 20:53
The bastard deserved every punch and kick in my biased opinion.
By law, what the officers did was wrong but these car chases need end NOW!
Enough of the spike strips and PIT maneuvers, I would like to see them use lethal force immediately to stop a vehicle. The moment the criminal behind the wheel decides to run, disobeying all laws, and endangering my family, it's time for deadly force.
Just create a good old fashioned road block setup and if the suspect does not stop then end the threat.
Reading the first line of your post, A giant "YOU'RE A PUSSY" welled up in the the back of my throat. The next second I realized that you had it right!
Every one who wears a badge should read the following federal statutes, if they aren't already familiar with them. We are accountable for our actions, and that accountability can be steep and expensive.
The first is Title 18, United States Code, Section 242.
Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
The other is Title 42, United States Code, Section 1983
Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.
Shadow1198
05-23-09, 23:56
Obviously the officers actions were wrong, and I'm not condoning them. However that was blatant attempted murder of a police officer, so goddamn if he didn't deserve every kick and punch and then some. Hopefully the maximum sentence will be handed down by the judge.
I would be more than happy if for chases they set a time, distance, or speed limit and rolled a helicopter in with a SAW after that. That would cut this nonsense out. Haha that would be hilarious. :D
Don' take this post the wrong way.... I am 100% 'pro-cop' but this was a little unnecessary.
Did the guy have it comin' ? Well, perhaps, but thats not the point. The fact is that at that time the unconscious individual presented no threat what-so-ever. Because he presented no threat and it was clear that he presented no threat, the beating should have never taken place.
The one guy I could see as being justified in his acts is the first guy that got to the criminal, the only reason for this is because at that moment the first cop doesn't know for sure that the criminal is indeed unconscious thereby he doesn't he know weather or not the criminal is still a threat.
Just my opinion.
There levels were too low. Take their badges and their certificates. Let the court decide if they deserve jail. We recently have had FAR worse and blatent attempts on a few of our deputies lives. We didn't do this shit.
I, like anyone, have a trigger that would cause me to go absolutely homicidal ape shit on someone so I can understand the reaction to the trigger. These guys triggers were set to light imo.
I can understand why civis feel the beating was justified but they're wrong. Can't just go berserk because a bad guy tried to kill you. If he's stopped trying to kill you and is now unconscious, you can't beat the shit of him and expect it all to be ok. F-ing babies is what they were.
It does suck he was unconscious. If he wasn't, he probably would have continued to fight. THEN they could have killed the turd stain and saved a bit of oxygen. It happens. Sometimes a guy rolls out his car with an AK and shoots 2 deputies cars disabling them both and grazing one their faces. Then takes off and hides his car at a friends house. Then calls his brother to pick him up. Then gets chased again only to be PIT and thrown out of the vehicle. Only to run into the woods and attempt to gain entry on a random house. Then give up as the helicopter, K9, and 3 deputies show up so he can't get what's coming to him..................... you know, sometimes things like that happen. We would have liked to have ended that one a different way but, the cards didn't flop for us. We have to play by the rules, the bad guys don't. Deal with it or get out of the profession. Christ, some people act like they didn't know this before they were sworn.
First, the beating was unnecessary. Second, lethal force will not solve the problem. It does not stop the vehicle, it merely creates an unguided missile once the driver is incapacitated.
JMHO
Not an entirely accurate statement. Not of consequence to this thread but, I'm sure you would take an unguided missile over one guided by someone trying to kill you.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-25-09, 13:31
What if the video were called:
Guy plays possum, rolls over and shoots four officers.
John_Wayne777
05-25-09, 14:49
With all due respect, that would be a completely different situation.
This fellow was in a wreck, was thrown clear of the vehicle with the whole rag-doll thing going on that at least the officer in the cruiser with the dashcam could probably see fairly well. Approaching with extreme caution in the aftermath of the chase is certainly warranted, but the response seen in the video was doomed to be a violation of policy because it doesn't appear that any attempt at assessment was made prior to using force.
GLOCKMASTER
05-25-09, 15:28
What if the video were called:
Guy plays possum, rolls over and shoots four officers.
It very easily could have been labled that however, luckily for the officers he was not in any condition to do that. All the more reason to approach a suspect like him in a more cautious manner instead of rushing in to get a punch or kick in.
Anyone who has ever been accused of something like this with that accusation taking them to fedral court for a civil rights suit knows better to act more professionally than what these officers did. But what would I know about that. ;) I guess you could say over twenty one years of good training and experience has taught me to know better and to act more professionally. I have found that it is a lot easier for people who have never been there to say things.
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