View Full Version : It's a mindset issue when ...
... A shooter shows up to a rifle class with two M1A's and an AK and they all go down hard in two days.
(Post your addition!)
Mindset because he fubar'd the rifles before the class by adding junk or just fumbled in every possible way during the class?
I had a new M1A and it worked fine until the Navy van had it. My understanding is if certain parts are changed out, like the op rod, bolt to what's considered mil spec, it works fine.
I understand there's a difference in the two. More than likely, they were dorked with until they were broke. Mine was one of two that didn't last long.
I don't have either one now.
My m1a is just as reliable as my AR15, which is zero failures. I can shoot the ar more before the barrel heats up to the point I don't want to fire any more and burn out the barrel.
Y'all's missing the point of the thread which is not the M1A or AK, but mindset.
His rifles - including the AK - all puked because they were not prepared or tested properly for the class, and he had dicked with them and added shit to them that caused them to fail.
Having one rifle go down in a class can be bad luck. Having your backup gun and your 2nd backup gun go down is a brain problem.
-z
baffle Stack
01-11-07, 02:22
Y'all's missing the point of the thread which is not the M1A or AK, but mindset.
His rifles - including the AK - all puked because they were not prepared or tested properly for the class, and he had dicked with them and added shit to them that caused them to fail.
Having one rifle go down in a class can be bad luck. Having your backup gun and your 2nd backup gun go down is a brain problem.
-z
That's quote worthy:p
More than likely, they were dorked with until they were broke
Usually the culprit. You see the guy with the Dremel set has more knowledge than the dozens of designers.
I've seen more than a few home "gunsmiths" dick with their 1911s until they don't function anymore and then declare all 1911s "unreliable".
This thread is exactly why for each AR I have that's all tricked out, I also have one that's 99% stock (save handguards and pistol grips changed out for M4 and A1 respectively) as a backup. I've taken to calling them A1 and A2, and B1 and B2.
I was in the same class with Zak and witnessed all 3 of this shooter's guns go down.
It is a mindset issue. Some students are more focused on "cool guy gear" and trying to look like a "superstar" than having the proper mindset to ensure that the gear they bring to class runs properly and coming to class to learn how to fight or a set of skills.
For some guys it's all about playing "dress up".
The mindset issue is shown in this thread:
Zak mentioned mindset and gave an example, and stated that the shooter came to class with (2) M1A rifles and they both choked along with an AK. Two of the three following responses were defending the M1A. It's not about the weapon's platform, it's about the SHOOTER. People are more focused on gear than on learning how to fight.
Mindset and gear selection for carbines:
Recently I have seen several posts on this an other boards discussing gear selection for students that are going to be attending a Carbine / Rifle course.
I think many students focus more on web gear selection and accessories for their rifles than on learning the skills taught in the class.
Students take classes for several reasons. Some students take classes because they are fun, others are interested in learning new skills, others to learn how to defend themselves with a firearm, and other students attend because the skills being taught will help them in the performance of their jobs (ie. Law Enforcement, Military, etc).
I have learned over the last decade and a half of training that gear for pistol training is fairly simple. A good gun, good sights, and a good holster.
When it comes to rifles, things become much more complex. Maybe this is because there is so much more selection when it comes to gear and accessories. Maybe it's because the defensive role of the rifle is not well defined with many civilians (ie. in what situations and how they will deploy the rifle).
The following are my experiences from using the carbine / rifle in training and on the job, and things I have observed while taking training classes:
Items you may find beneficial at a carbine / rifle training class
I have taken NUMEROUS tactical carbine and tactical pistol courses from many different traniners over the last 6 years. I have also taken a few Patrol Rifle and SWAT carbine courses (over the last 9+ years). What follows are some things that I have learned in those course.
-Use quality USA made ammo, such as Federal, Winchester, etc. Do not take surplus, Wolf, etc. to a class. One of the worst mistakes I see are shooters spending good money on training and then showing up with cheap ammo, and they have nothing but ammo realted malfunctions the entire class. An example of this is we had 4 guys that were shooting "Olympic" brand ammo, and their guns were jamming every couple of rounds the entire class, this slowed things down for the rest of us.
-MASTER YOUR IRON SIGHTS FIRST. No doubt that optics are benificial and much faster than irons. But before you go an buy an ACOG, Aimpoint, EO Tech, or any other optic, master your iron sights FIRST. Once you have mastered the iron sights then master the optic of your choice. If you are already good to go on irons then by all means, use an optic of your liking.
-Use quality USGI magazines with the GREEN or new Magpul followers. Another thing that I do to my magazines is use the Wolff Gunsprings 10%+ mag springs in my mags. If you have the time take the mags to the range and make sure they work good. Nothing worse then showing up to class with crappy mags and having your gun malfunction on a constant basis due to bad magazines.
-Learn to properly clean and maintain your gun properly. I always recommend the US Army or USMC M16A2 manual to new shooters, these manuals will show you how to properly maintain and clean your AR15. On the first day of class make sure you show up with a properly cleaned and lubed carbine. Everyday after class properly field strip, clean, and lube your carbine. In most Tactical Carbine Courses you will shoot approximately 500 per day, everyday. The guys that don't properly clean and lube their carbines will be easy to spot......Their guns usually go "TITS UP" the second day of class prior to lunch. A USGI cleaning kit has everything that you need in it to properly clean, maintain, and lube your gun.....and make sure to use the chamber brush.
-Buy a quality rifle / carbine and don't try to build one. In the classes that I have been to approximately 90%+ of the "built" guns have gone tit's up. Last year in a carbine course, the instructor took a poll. Of over 20 students, 12 or so had "built" rifles (all AR-15's) and of those 12 rifles 100% of them went tits up during the class. The rest of the guys had factory built guns and none of the factory built guns went tits up. That is not to say that I haven't seen a factory gun go tit's up, it just happens a lot less than with a gun that is built from parts from different manufacturers. .
-I always recommend having a gun that has 1,000 rounds through it prior to coming to class. If there are any problems (ie. loose gas key, etc) they will usually arise in the first 1,000 rounds. I have seen some guys show up to class with a brand new gun and put 1,000 rounds down range without a problem, and I have seen other brand new guns that have some teething problems the first day because they are brand new, but start settling down the second day. Along with this "break in" period, it also let's the shooter know what ammo and mags the gun does or doesn't like. If you shoot the first 1,000 rounds with Federal American Eagle .223 and 5 USGI mags with no problems, then take that same ammo and those same 5 magazines to the class.
-If you have access to a second AR, take it to the class. If carbine #1 goes tit's up, you've got a back up.
-If *you* are *new to AR's* get a SIMPLE carbine and shoot it in the class.....Many times I have seen shooters show up to a class with all kinds of crap hanging off of their guns and all those accessories give them nothing but problems. Start off with a simple carbine, attend the Carbine Course, learn how to operate your gun proficiently, then add accessories as you *need* them. When you do decide to buy accessories, buy quality gear. Buy cheap and buy twice, as the saying goes.
-Make sure you have a good sling, my personal preference now is the outstanding Vickers sling by Blue Force gear, but use what works best for you (single point, two point, or three point) because most likely you will be doing transition drills (transitioning from your carbine to your pistol)
-Remember keep it simple, take a good quality, factory made AR15 rifle or carbine (and use the IRON SIGHTS if you don't know how to already), good quality USA made ammo, good quality USGI mags, a quality sling, a USGI cleaning kit, knee pads, plenty of water, and an open mind!!!
Gear Selection for a Carbine / Rifle Class
I often hear guys say "Fight like you train" or "Train like you will fight". Most of the time these same guys don't take their own advise.
For example, a civilian that shows up to class with more nylon gear than most special operation forces wear. In a real world situation when is a civilian going to have the time to don all that gear and deploy his rifle?
Outside of a situation like the '93 L.A. Riots or a Hurricane Katrina situation, generally speaking if a civilian is going to deploy his carbine, it will most likely be within the confines of his own home (home invasion or a burglary while the homeowner is at home).
In defense of your home, when the suspect is INSIDE your house, you are not going to have time to don any web gear. You are going to grab your rifle and address the situation.
Keeping this in mind, why not train in a class in the same manner that you would deploy your carbine in real life.
In every training class and every match I have shot in I have learned at least one new lesson. So by wearing something to class that you would never wear in the real world, you are depriving yourself of lessons that you could have learned.
Here is some food for thought:
I am a big fan using the same gun / gear in training with what you will carry for a defensive situation (ie. CCW, SWAT Officer, Uniformed Patrol, Military, etc).
If you are not going to carry your gun around on a daily basis in a tactical thigh holster, then don't wear it to training. Wear in training what you will use in real life!!!
This also goes for carrying your spare magazines for your carbine. If you are going to carry an extra spare magazine or two in your rear support side pants pocket, or in the cargo pocket of your Old Navy cargo pants....then when you attend training, store your spare magazines in the same place.
Don't be one of those guys that has a $500 chest rig, and will never use it in real life. Use in training what you will use in real life.
An example of why you should train with the same gear that you will use in the real world:
A Narcotics Sgt. that works on my Dept. went to a 3 gun match and he was watching another shooter. The shooter's AR15 had been working fine all day, then came up to a stage that required a magazine change. The shooter shot the course of fire and retreived a magazine from his support side rear pocket, inserted it into the AR15, shot and the gun jammed. The shooter cleared the jam, fired another round and the gun jammed again. This happended for several rounds and the shooter had to stop and fix his gun. After examining the gun the shooter had realized that he had a gum wrapper in his pocket and this some how got attached to the feed lip of the magazine, when the shooter inserted the mag and the first round chambered, it carried the gum wrapper into the action of the AR15, thus causing his AR15 to malfunction.
The Sgt. told me that many times he and his crew run out of the office to go serve a small warrant and instead of wearing all his tactical gear he just wears his vest and puts an extra magazine or two in his back pocket. After seeing what happened at this match, the Sgt now makes sure that his pocket is free of any debris PRIOR to putting a magazine in his pants pocket. This is a great thing to learn in training, but would SUCK in a very bad way to have to learn when the bullets were flying both ways. In short train like you will fight.
This is the type of lesson that you could learn in a training class or a match if you use the same gear in the class that you will use in real life. Had this shooter taken a training class using a chest rig / belt mounted mag pouch / thigh mounted mag pouch / etc, he would have never learned this lesson.
Each piece of gear (weather it's a chest rig or a cargo pocket) has it's own specific learning curve. It's better to learn the pros and cons and the do's and don'ts in class than in a real world situaton.
The same thing goes for cops, military, etc. Use the same gear in training that you will use at work.
I always hear guys say "Train like you will fight", yadda, yadda, yadda. For most, it is nothing more than "lip service".
As my father always told me "Talk is cheap" and "Actions speak louder than words"
The reason I say this is many shooter's mindsets are in the wrong place. They show up to class with gear they would NEVER use in the real world. And most will admit that the gear they show up with, they will never use.
There is a time and a place for uber cool gear and accessories and there is a time an place to learn lessons in training so you don't have to learn if / them when bullets are flying both ways.
Many shooter are more worried about looking cool or justifying a purchase (guns, gear, etc) than learning to run their gun and gear in the same manner that they will use it in a real world defense situation.
Gear selection. Selection and placement of gear is the same for pistols and rifles:
Apply the same principals that you use for your CCW to your rifle training:
If your CCW rig is a kydex in the waist band (IBW) holster that you wear on your strong side (for arguments sake, let's say you are right handed). So your pistol is going to be on your right side in a IBW holster and your mags are going to be on your left side.
You take a 2 tactical pistol class where you will fire 1,500 to 2,000 rounds in two days and draw your pistol from the holster and access spare magazines from your mag pouch well in the excess of 100+ times.
Knowing that you are going to carry daily in a strong side (right side) IBW holster, does it make any sence to show up to class wearing a Miami Vice style shoulder holster? For 2 days and thousands of rounds and countless draws from the holster, you are going to draw your pistol from the area of your left armpit and you will access your mags from the area of your right armpit (remember for the class you are wearing a Miami Vice style shoulder holster).
There is an entirely different draw stroke, set of body mechanics, holster issues, clothing issues, reholstering, accessing magazines, etc. that go with a shoulder holster than with a strong side belt mounted IBW holster.
Now you have spent 2 days training, your "muscle memory" has gotten to the point that you (almost without thinking) go directly to your left armpit to draw your gun (because that is where the gun sits on your body when in a shoulder holster).
The class is finished and you put the Miami Vice sytle sholder holster in the closet and start carrying with your IBW belt mounted holster WITHOUT EVERY TRAINING WITH IT.
The following week you find yourself at the wrong end of a deadly force encounter with a man how is intent on killing you. You need your pistol and you need it now, your body and brain go into an auto pilot like mode, you grab for your pistol under your left arm, but it's not there (but that's where it was loacated for hundreds of draw stokes in training when you were wearing your Miami Vice style shoulder holster.....but today you are wearing a strong side belt holster).....
Then you realize "Oh shit, my pistol is located on my belt on my right side," you grab for the gun, start to draw the pistol gets caught up on your shirt (you are wearing a loose shirt because you liked the color, and because you never trained with your IBW holster you never realized that wearing loose fitting shirts could cause a problem when drawing from an IBW holster).
Now you have lost valuable seconds, you are even more upset and more stressed than you would have been if you could have located and easily drawn your pistol immedately and "gotten into the fight". Could a situation like this cost you your life? Something to think about.
And we all think "It can't happen to me". I was watching one of the new reality SWAT shows on TV a couple weeks ago, Texas SWAT, Dallas SWAT, or one of them. One of the SWAT cops was wearing a 6004 holster. He attempted to draw his pistol from the belt TWICE before realizing that he wasn't wearing his belt holster and his pistol was located further down on his thigh. I have admittedly made simular mistakes......It's something called a "training issue" and can happen to any of us.
I use the analogy with the pistol and different style holsters because students can relate to them much better for some unknown reason. Take the same lessons learned with different pistol holsters and apply those lessons to a carbine and carbine related gear.
If you are going to access your AR15 magazine from your rear left side pants pocket there is a certain learning curve involved in that (an example of this can be seen in my first post). So if you are training for self defense, doesn't it make sense to truely "Train like you will fight"?
When wearing a chest rig in a class you are teaching yourself to access extra ammo from your chest. Is this where you will carry ammo in a real world defensive situation? If not, maybe it's time to reevaluate your mindset and the way you do things.
If you are wearing a chest rig, it makes life easier for you in the class, but what are you teaching yourself?
Something I learned early on in the USMC is "Comfort will get you killed".
Don't do something just because it's easy or becasue it's comfortable. Take the phrase "Train like you will fight" to heart.
Every evolution I have every been on where we deviate from what we have done in training, and everything goes to shit, quickly. Training the way you will fight may save your life someday.
A gunfight is the wrong place to try to "unteach" yourself what you have already learned and attempt to replace it with a new set of skills.
Take care and stay safe,
Semper Fi,
Jeff
People are more focused on gear than on learning how to fight.
I agree, but I also think you have to have the gear squared away in order to learn how to fight. I've seen it in training and in competition, when someone's rifle goes down, 9 out of 10 times they completly stop what they're doing and all of their attention goes to the gun. All too often, in the case of cometitions, the first thing out of their mouth is "reshoot". There are no reshoots in real life.
With that said, you are also absolutely right that some people just want to play dress-up and, as Pat Rogers has said, attend an "Outward Bound with guns". I have no issue with these people, except to say that "that guy" in class is often from this group.
you have to have the gear squared away in order to learn how to fight.
Agreed. As men much smarter than I have said "Fight your enemy, not your gear".
When a guy shows up to class with 3 guns and all of them go tits up, he's probably more interested in "talking about cool guy gear" than learning how to efficiently run the gear that he has so he can fight more effectively.
Dang Jeff, really good info for a sticky?
Add these three simple things in
"Does it work"
"Is it neccessary"
"Can you duplicate it under stress"
I've lost count of the number of times cell phones, pagers and pepper spray have been used as spare mags--
Mark
Pat_Rogers
01-11-07, 08:55
Agreed. As men much smarter than I have said "Fight your enemy, not your gear".
When a guy shows up to class with 3 guns and all of them go tits up, he's probably more interested in "talking about cool guy gear" than learning how to efficiently run the gear that he has so he can fight more effectively.
That was from Jonny Laplume, a true national assest when it comes to gear, and the reason why shooters in some organizations have what they have.
I started quoting him several years ago in oder to emphasize a point.
Re 3 guns pooping the sheets.
There are- unfortunately- agreat number of people who have more money than common sense, and who should never ever be allowed to look at (never mind own- a gun.
I used to see these by the bushel when i worked at a place in the high desert. We sometimes would get 5-6 people who were "That Guy".
I don't see too many any more.
I used to be nice to them, but not any more. You have to be responsible for your actions (whatever they may be) and if you can't be trusted to bring one working gun to class, with working ammo, working magazines and the like (especially after you have been advised about this), there is no reason to destroy the entire class with your stupidity.
Guns break- they are wear items. But 3 not working at the same time?? That is a brain problem.
Note that i said nothing about ability. We can teach people to perform certain skill sets. But how do you teach people who show up with bad attitudes or common sense issues.
Dang Jeff, really good info for a sticky?
Add these three simple things in
"Does it work"
"Is it neccessary"
"Can you duplicate it under stress"
I've lost count of the number of times cell phones, pagers and pepper spray have been used as spare mags--
Mark
That is something I would pay to see.
When I compete with my AR, all I use are my irons, no co-witness, nothing else, just irons. Its the way I was taught by a PMI with the M16 platform in 1990.
I've lost count of the number of times cell phones, pagers and pepper spray have been used as spare mags--
Yep, as an IDPA SO I've seen the same thing. The quizical look on their face as they realize what's in their hand is priceless. Hopefully the generous ribbing by the rest of the squad also ensures they don't forget the lesson.:p
Jay Cunningham
01-11-07, 09:15
I think that common sense must strongly apply in all cases, including training.
"Train like you will fight" can be taken too literally and to an extreme. If you are standing on the line with just jeans and a T-shirt with a spare mag in your back pocket you will most likely hold up the class.
Will you really be wearing a ballcap, collared shirt, ear and eye pro in a real situation?
My opinion about training is to get the most out of it. If a dump pouch and other gear will help you focus on what you are being taught then I say GTG.
OTOH, gear for the sake of gear is just playing Barbie. Once again, common sense must always apply.
"Train like you will fight" can be taken too literally and to an extreme. If you are standing on the line with just jeans and a T-shirt with a spare mag in your back pocket you will most likely hold up the class.
I wore jeans and a t-shirt all through the Pat Rogers class. Is there a clothing issue that I'm missing?
Will you really be wearing a ballcap, collared shirt, ear and eye pro in a real situation?
There is a distinction between safety gear and muscle memory. From what I have read and heard relayed to me (having never been in a gunfight myself), you don't notice the brass burning you or the ringing in your ears until after the fight is over. What you would notice real quick is that the spare magazine you reached for on your chest is actually in your pocket.
My opinion about training is to get the most out of it. If a dump pouch and other gear will help you focus on what you are being taught then I say GTG.
I agree completely. I intended to go to the PR class and use the chest rig to feed the left-rear pocket, but I both just plain forgot AND was using a dump pouch in that location anyway. Between now and my next class I'll be looking for alternates to the dump pouch so that I can literally "train the way I would fight."
Jay Cunningham
01-11-07, 09:41
I wore jeans and a t-shirt all through the Pat Rogers class. Is there a clothing issue that I'm missing?
Nope.
For me, jeans are lacking because of the design of the pockets and the layout, size and number of belt loops.
I like a collared shirt to keep the sling from rubbing my neck raw. Standing on the line, shooting for long periods of time will wear on a guy. Same reason that I wear Mechanix gloves. There is safety gear and comfort gear and gear that makes it more convenient to keep your guns fed and focus on what the instructor is teaching.
Rob, I know that you are a squared-away shooter from second hand AAR's but I also know that you are a bit militant in your "anti-tactical" beliefs; hence the trademark visor and yellow shirt (or whatever).
That stuff works for you, so GTG. I do have a question for you, though: if your particular methods began to hold up a training class, would you change or would it be tough luck for the rest of the shooters?
I also know that you are a bit militant in your "anti-tactical" beliefs; hence the trademark visor and yellow shirt (or whatever).
It's not "anti-tactical" as much as it's intended to take the piss out of some of the guys that are "over-tactical". The first time I ever showed up at an IDPA match everyone was wearing 5.11s, photographer's vests, Oakleys, and hiking or "tactical" boots. I thought I was shooting with a bunch of cops until I started asking around and found out everyone there was a lawyer or accountant. Then I would see them off-range and they would be dressed completely differently. The yellow visor, tennis shoes, etc. are meant to poke fun at that mentality a little, and hopefully get people to think for themselves instead of follow the herd.
Which is kind of what this thread is about. The guy that can't get over his gear or weapon choice, or who's gear/weapon choice is not based on actual usage but perceived cool points.
That stuff works for you, so GTG. I do have a question for you, though: if your particular methods began to hold up a training class, would you change or would it be tough luck for the rest of the shooters?
This was my dilema before going to Pat's class. I really wanted to go there with my IWB holster, my spare AR mag in my back pocket, and my rifle on a sling. I knew, however, that this would hamper the class and is why I originally intended to feed the pocket from the chest rig. It wound up that there were so many other people holding up the line that I could have been feeding my rifle from a magazine stored in my left sock and still not been "that guy".:D
I would really like to see Pat or another instructor do a non-LEO, civilian oriented class where you only kept two or three mags on you total (2 spares plus one in the gun at most) as you might in real post-hurricane / urban-riot / intruder-in-the-night kind of scenario. The basics are still there in terms of trigger control, shooting positions, etc., but the tempo and organization of the class would need to be slightly different in order to keep the rifles fed.
John_Wayne777
01-11-07, 10:17
... A shooter shows up to a rifle class with two M1A's and an AK and they all go down hard in two days.
(Post your addition!)
Yup.
Before I attend a training class I test out all my weapons and gear to make sure it functions properly. The last thing I want to do is miss trigger time because of busted equipment.
Jay Cunningham
01-11-07, 10:28
I would really like to see Pat or another instructor to a non-LEO, civilian oriented class where you only kept two or three mags on you total (2 spares plus one in the gun at most) as you might in real post-hurricane / urban-riot / intruder-in-the-night kind of scenario. The basics are still there in terms of trigger control, shooting positions, etc., but the tempo and organization of the class would need to be slightly different in order to keep the rifles fed.
That would indeed be very cool. Perhaps we should start a new discussion thread on what the similarities and differences may be for "tactical" carbine training vs. civilian defensive carbine training.
I would really like to see Pat or another instructor do a non-LEO, civilian oriented class where you only kept two or three mags on you total (2 spares plus one in the gun at most) as you might in real post-hurricane / urban-riot / intruder-in-the-night kind of scenario.
That would work for you, and thats fine. Nothing wrong with that. However, even as a non-leo, I would handle those situations quite differently.
There are items that I train with, that I make sure to always have with my weapon. If that weapon is with me, so are those items.
I am very much in belief of training with what you intend to fight with. However, I also believe in fighting with what I train with. That takes a level of personal commitment that many dont have. As Zak was pointing out, Mindset is a huge part of the equation.
That would work for you, and thats fine. Nothing wrong with that. However, even as a non-leo, I would handle those situations quite differently.
I guess it depends on the situation. I'm thinking of a grab-and-go situation where donning a chest rig, gloves, belt, thigh holster, etc. would take time that you may not have. It takes virtually no additional time to stuff a spare mag in a pocket, or attach a clip-on kydex mag holder to a belt you're already wearing.
Frankly I think that even many LEOs could benefit from something similar. Unless they're SWAT, most LEOs are going to deploy the rifle while not already wearing a full get-up, and may need to do so in a hurry.
Pat_Rogers
01-11-07, 11:58
I would really like to see Pat or another instructor do a non-LEO, civilian oriented class where you only kept two or three mags on you total (2 spares plus one in the gun at most) as you might in real post-hurricane / urban-riot / intruder-in-the-night kind of scenario. The basics are still there in terms of trigger control, shooting positions, etc., but the tempo and organization of the class would need to be slightly different in order to keep the rifles fed.__________________
As a matter of fact, i am doing one on the 12th...
I guess it depends on the situation. I'm thinking of a grab-and-go situation where donning a chest rig, gloves, belt, thigh holster, etc. would take time that you may not have. It takes virtually no additional time to stuff a spare mag in a pocket, or attach a clip-on kydex mag holder to a belt you're already wearing.
Frankly I think that even many LEOs could benefit from something similar. Unless they're SWAT, most LEOs are going to deploy the rifle while not already wearing a full get-up, and may need to do so in a hurry.
Indeed it is situation dependent. With the post hurricane or riot situation, I'll definitely have more than a mag in the pocket. Those usually arent things that sneak up on you......at least not if your fairly aware. ;)
Looks like Pat answered your request. Now thats fast service. :D
Submariner
01-11-07, 12:11
The following quotes are from Cooper's Commentaries, Vol. 13, No. 7 July 2005. Bold is added for emphasis; italics are original text:
Considered carefully, the great marksmanship masters are now spread rather widely across the country, and no particular group of teachers is currently confined to any one school. There are several noteworthy shooting masters whom I have not personally taught, so I cannot speak for the entire group, but among the greats I would list John Gannaway, [ouis Awerbuck, John Pepper, Pat Rogers, Clint Smith, the Stock brothers, Larry Mudgett, Tom Russell, Marc Heim, and Michel Röthlisberger. There may be others, as I have suggested, but the foregoing names may be listed now as "Doctors of Practical Marksmanship." I guess I should get up a program of certification attesting to this.
****
We are steadily asked about the age at which to teach young people to shoot. The answer to this obviously depends upon the particular individual; not only his physical maturity but his desire. Apart from these considerations, however, I think it important to understand that it is the duty of the father to teach the son to shoot. Before the young man leaves home, there are certain things he should know and certain skills he should acquire, apart from any state-sponsored activity. Certainly the youngster should be taught to swim, strongly and safely, at distance. And young people of either sex should be taught to drive a motor vehicle, and if at all possible, how to fly a light airplane. I believe a youngster should be taught the rudiments of hand-to-hand combat, unarmed, together with basic survival skills. The list is long, but it is a parent's duty to make sure that the child does not go forth into the world helpless in the face of its perils. Shooting, of course, is our business, and shooting should not be left up to the state.
****
Marc Heim tells us that the novice should be started using telescope and bipod, so as to allow concentration on one thing at a time. I never thought of the matter quite this way, but the idea certainly seems to have merit. Once the apprentice learns about sight picture and trigger control, he can then study shooting position and successive matters.
I had never heard of Marc Heim; however, if he is on Lt. Col. Cooper's list, I suspect his opinion may have some merit. I take seriously the responsibility to teach my children to shoot. Until recently, we had neither telescopes nor bipods. We did, however, have carbines with Aimpoints and monopods (the ubiquitous 30-round magazine, recently replaced by a Grip-Pod).
An optic is a tool that can be used in learning (and performing) practical marksmanship, not simply a reward to be garnered for mastering iron sights. Shooting a red dot is a gross motor skill, easier to learn than iron sights (fine motor skill). With it the shooter learns sight picture. With the bipod, the shooter learns natural point of aim. Added is trigger control (with emphasis on the reset), breathing and follow through. Next the shooter learns manipulation of the carbine (also gross motor skills). Then comes positions, malfunction clearances and moving and shooting.
Once the shooter has a good handle on these "simple" things, he/she is taught iron sights. (I know, I know, the Marine Corps did not teach me this way...) Leave the red dot on, flip up the KAC 300m BUIS, and center the tip of the front sight and the red dot vertically and horizontally in the rear sight aperture to imprint in their minds proper sight alignment; then turn off the red dot and practice. It seems to have worked (just like taking off the training wheels from a bike). YMMV. We try to shoot one magazine out of ten with irons. Iron sights are, unfortunately, gear that must be fought while fighting (or learning to fight) the enemy.
If Lt. Col. cooper means gunfighting by his admonishment to fathers to teach sons to shoot, then that is where this father's ability ends. One thing I have learned since I started down this path is that National Match courses and KD range firing do not gunfighting make. As Pat wrote, "Not sure that having a race car driver teaching tactical driving would make any more sense then a lawyer teaching gunfighting (sorry, Paul, you get the drift..)"
Here in Indiana we have been blessed with the good offices of Sheriff Ken Campbell to bring Pat Rogers and Louis Awerbuck so that all of us can begin to learn "practical marksmanship": marksmanship, mindset and manipulation. Time and money, e.g. ammunition costs, drive most issues and there is only so much time and so many training dollars. I am convinced that the method outlined above has generated the best, most efficient return for the time and money spent on preparing the people whom I care about most for the next step in their training. It has demonstrably worked on two of my children and, most likely, will work on the other five as they cycle through classes at Boone County.
Will you really be wearing a ballcap, collared shirt, ear and eye pro in a real situation?
You don't wear eye's and ear's when you train? :confused:
Mace
Heck, I look at it this way:
Even though he had a mindset problem in relation to his gear, at least he ponied up the cash and showed up for training.
The internet is full of folks who don't even seek out training. He made the biggest step towards bettering himself, in my opinion. Seeing his 3 guns crap out should, with some guidance, help him to continue down the path.
Heck, I look at it this way:
Even though he had a mindset problem in relation to his gear, at least he ponied up the cash and showed up for training.
The internet is full of folks who don't even seek out training. He made the biggest step towards bettering himself, in my opinion. Seeing his 3 guns crap out should, with some guidance, help him to continue down the path.
Excellent point. Hopefully he treated it as a learning experience.
Pat_Rogers
01-11-07, 17:31
"Looks like Pat answered your request. Now thats fast service."
Sarcasm never translates well over the errornet.
The 12th is slang for "The 12th of never", meaning not just no, but hell no.
There are probably ant number of people that would like to teach something like that- i am not one of them.
I would be bored silly; we would get to shoot about 1/3 less then normal, and then not be able to teach what needs to be taught.
Wow. I hit the nail on the head on the first try!
"Looks like Pat answered your request. Now thats fast service."
Sarcasm never translates well over the errornet.
The 12th is slang for "The 12th of never", meaning not just no, but hell no.
There are probably ant number of people that would like to teach something like that- i am not one of them.
I would be bored silly; we would get to shoot about 1/3 less then normal, and then not be able to teach what needs to be taught.
Yup, that one went right by me. :o
Honestly, I was wondering in the back of my head... "Wonder why Pat is doing a class like that?", but figured you had a reason.
Pat Rogers
There are probably ant number of people that would like to teach something like that- i am not one of them.
I would be bored silly; we would get to shoot about 1/3 less then normal, and then not be able to teach what needs to be taught.
Ahh... You have restored my faith in you....;) You had me worried for a moment..
RobS
It's not "anti-tactical" as much as it's intended to take the piss out of some of the guys that are "over-tactical"
Ahh.. now I understand.. I did not know you felt obligated to take the piss out of us... thanks...:rolleyes:
I had know Idea that you were destined to police all the "over-Tactical" ones out there.. that explains alot......
Rob, while I have done most of my on duty AR work with a single spare mag in my back pocket, but this isn't how I want to run a class. Having lots of mags on the shooters from an instructor standpoint allows for more time on the line and more training. I hate having the whole process for an entire class held up by "that guy" weather its due to jacked up gear, jacked up brain, or trying too hard to be "realistic". I mean in all seriousness, you think that maybe Pat or many of the other highly qualified instructors out there have a clue or two about the best way to run an EFFICIENT class. The more time you can spend on hard wiring your skill set, the easier time you will have on implamenting the tool to solve problems later.
Now that is from a class standpoint. From a shooter and training standpoint, I like the idea of running some type of combat shoot where you are limited to grab and go gear and you work through problem solving scenarios that a relevant to the scenarios you are talking about. I used to do a ton of shooting with a very dedicated group of guys that did this kind of thing. Timers were used to EVALUATE what was being done to try to find "cleaner" ways to do things in conjunction with looking at tactics. Not a true competition with trophy's and gee whiz factor, but basically a test bed environment. To me this is the best way to supplament the formal training courses and keep your skills honed. It also allows you to gear your training to what your reality is.
Hoplophile
01-12-07, 00:16
The more time you can spend on hard wiring your skill set, the easier time you will have on implamenting the tool to solve problems later.
Exactly. If I need to train myself to pull the mag from a hip pocket instead of from my chest I can spend a half hour in front of the TV every night practicing speed reloads from my hip pocket. When I'm paying money for a class I want to do the shit that I can't do any other day of the week and I want to do as much of it as I can cram into the time I have available.
Ahh.. now I understand.. I did not know you felt obligated to take the piss out of us... thanks...:rolleyes:
I had know Idea that you were destined to police all the "over-Tactical" ones out there.. that explains alot......
I'm not policing anyone. Replies like yours, however, do make it all worthwhile.
I want to be clear that this has nothing do to with the professional shooters out there. I shot for 3 days next to one of my friends who is a civilian contractor home from Iraq due to injury. He was wearing soft body armor, plates, and carrying 13 AR mags plus other gear. I have no interest in "taking the piss" out of him as that's not the point (and he gets it).
I simply find it amusing that there are guys who are accountants, lawyers, and plumbers that show up with the same gear. Must be some high-risk accounting.:rolleyes: Other than a few comments on this site now and again, I've given up even commenting on it as it's no sweat off my balls if someone wants to play soldier for a day. The visor remains as a silent poke in the eye, however. So far I'm batting 1000 in not offending those who shouldn't be with the visor, and offending those who should. It's kind of like the emporer's new clothes.
It's becoming increasingly clear which group you fall in through your constant personal public sniping of me and your refusal to answer private messages to discuss and attempt to resolve the matter.
Now that is from a class standpoint. From a shooter and training standpoint, I like the idea of running some type of combat shoot where you are limited to grab and go gear and you work through problem solving scenarios that a relevant to the scenarios you are talking about. I used to do a ton of shooting with a very dedicated group of guys that did this kind of thing. Timers were used to EVALUATE what was being done to try to find "cleaner" ways to do things in conjunction with looking at tactics. Not a true competition with trophy's and gee whiz factor, but basically a test bed environment. To me this is the best way to supplament the formal training courses and keep your skills honed. It also allows you to gear your training to what your reality is.
This is basically what we do with the carbine matches that I run. I've tried to design the match and scoring format such that the guys that want to "game" can do so, and the guys that want to use it for training can do so. I'm starting to incorporate some of the things we learned in Pat's class in order to help out the latter group and reinforce good habits instead of bad. We basically have two groups, one that cares about their score in relation to everyone else, and those that only care about their score as a means of self-evaluation. I'm in the latter group, but we need the former group to help pay the range fees.:D
I'm not policing anyone. Replies like yours, however, do make it all worthwhile.
I want to be clear that this has nothing do to with the professional shooters out there. I shot for 3 days next to one of my friends who is a civilian contractor home from Iraq due to injury. He was wearing soft body armor, plates, and carrying 13 AR mags plus other gear. I have no interest in "taking the piss" out of him as that's not the point (and he gets it).
I simply find it amusing that there are guys who are accountants, lawyers, and plumbers that show up with the same gear. Must be some high-risk accounting.:rolleyes: Other than a few comments on this site now and again, I've given up even commenting on it as it's no sweat off my balls if someone wants to play soldier for a day. The visor remains as a silent poke in the eye, however. So far I'm batting 1000 in not offending those who shouldn't be with the visor, and offending those who should. It's kind of like the emporer's new clothes.
It's becoming increasingly clear which group you fall in through your constant personal public sniping of me and your refusal to answer private messages to discuss and attempt to resolve the matter.
Let's tone it down a little bit because I'd hate to see Zak's thread get locked. When I take classes I don't care what my line mates do for a living, what they're wearing or what reason(s) they're there. I only care if they're safe and enthusiastic about training.
If their profession was a criteria for getting into a class there would be VERY few classes and that would suck.
You are very kind for stating it like that...........
Pat_Rogers
01-12-07, 07:22
"If their profession was a criteria for getting into a class there would be VERY few classes and that would suck."
So true....
I prefer doing agency/ unit classes overall because the admin burden is less; and SOP is in place; and people are working off the same sheet of music.
The people have same/ similar weapons, support equipment and ammunition.
However, i enjoy the civilians in my open classes because i get to see/ experience a whole lot of gear/guns that i might not see (and fill my book with new and exciting images of guns/ gear failing...), and interact with some great and motivated people.
The other advantage in the open classes is that average earth people get to interact- on and off the range- with cops, military and others that they may not ordinarily deal with. It works the other way around as well.
Additionally, cops/ mil/ other real guys have the opportunity to interact with each other, which means solid info transfer and invaluable contacts down the line.
I have said this many times before. I don't care what you bring as long as it is serviceable.
There were people in the last class that wore vests and ran the mags out of pockets. It is a lot slower and there is a lot of fumbling involved, but that is your choice.
I believe that people need to be grounded in basics- especially in weapons handling. The Carbine Operator's Course is my basic course but i expect people to have a clear understanding as to basic safety, shooting and manipulative skills. The rest we can work on.
Any 3-5 day class is not sufficient to make you the gunfighter from hell- it is only an introduction, and regular sustainment training is necessary.
However, the gear part of this is not rocket science, and can be worked out at home during Dry Practice.
An example: attend a class and use a chest rig or subload and dump pouch. The lessons learned in loading/ reloading, positions, transitions and movement are a lot easier.
During your dry practice (after the class) you can experiment with your trousers/ vest de jour. Knowing where/ how magazines need to be manipulated will give you some direction as to how to sort your gear out so as to ensure maximum efficiency. You also need to ensure that what you have in those large pockets won't depart when you are moving or assuming positions.
At class it is just feeding the range chickens. For real, you have an empty gun...
Now a dose of reality. If you believe that in the middle of the night, when your home is being invaded, you will be able to grab a weapon, throw a ballistic vest over your head, run down the hallway, grab your child and shield her with your body while shouting orders to your spouse/ older kids etc, you are on crack.
Waking up sufficiently to do most anything is difficult for many, especially those that have never had to do it.
Grabbing extra ammo in a carrier etc may be a luxury only if time permits, and we all know how much time you have in a gunfight.
Realistically, the only ammunition that you are going to have with you in a middle of the night scenario is what you have in and on the gun- be this a Redi Mag or a stock pouch.
I can tell you that the experience of one is insufficient to make a spec on a statistical table. However, i was involved in exactly this type of situation a long time ago. I grabbed the only weapon i had available (an M1 Carbine) and the only ammunition i had was the 45 rds in/ on the gun. There was absolutely no time to access anything else.
Everyday you make choices based on priorities. That "How do we eat an elephant" thing. The first priority in a gunfight is to have a gun. Getting murdered while you are tring to put on your secret squirrel contingency vest may be counter productive.
During a natural disaster such as Katrina, or the next religious inspired calamity when smelly bearded men turn a population center into a smoking hole in the ground you may have sufficient warning (in the case of the former) and sufficient time after the event in the latter to prepare for the potential of follow on attacks by the turds of society. If you have that time, then the vest, ammo etc will be an issue.
The world is not- in most cases- black and white. It is shades of grey.
Get used to it.
Going to an IDPA match with all the tacticool gear is a not a bad thing. It's funny, but not bad.
It's when someone goes to a match with every cool guy piece of gear but no proficiency or skill set that is bad.
Wear what you want but let your shooting do the talking (if you can).
I am very interested to know what exactly that shooter did to those 3 weapons that made them each go down like that. So I have to pause for a minute before I call him a moron. Yes probably a very short pause.
http://img.printfection.com/14/106617/gd9au.jpg
HolyRoller
01-26-08, 23:21
How about this:
In class, wear what you work with if possible, but above all, use what you need to let you go with the flow and not hold everybody else up.
The other 355 days of the year when you're not in class, train with what you use. That's what class is really for anyway--giving you the tools to work toward perfection on your own.
In both LAV classes so far, I've worn my duty belt with the standard two pistol mag pouches, and a rifle mag pouch in place of the radio, and got along all right, although I had to jam mags at every opportunity. At the AK class I had my plate carrier complete with Level IV plates and three rifle mags and two more pistol mags ready to go, only to hear first thing that on such a blazing hot day, all that extra stuff was just inviting a heat casualty, so the carrier stayed in the trunk. Our top shooter in the AK class was an infantry officer who, if I recall correctly, said it was generally a good idea not to wear EVERYthing; instead, download all but what you need for the exercise, so you can concentrate on what you're learning. But he also said that when he suggested this to other Army guys, "it was like I'd said you should wipe your butt with a picture of the Virgin Mary," so others may think different.
Rmplstlskn
01-27-08, 15:58
Now a dose of reality. If you believe that in the middle of the night, when your home is being invaded, you will be able to grab a weapon, throw a ballistic vest over your head, run down the hallway, grab your child and shield her with your body while shouting orders to your spouse/ older kids etc, you are on crack.
Excellent post, excellent topic! It has slapped my "tacti-cool" tendencies back into check... :cool: These forums and all the cool gear here tend to do that to most any red-blooded, meat-eating male I assume... I'm guilty...
MY REALITY is that anything having to do with an AR (or any long gun) is in fact, ROLE PLAYING the improbable hypothetical. My LOADED AR's, FAL and other long guns are in a SAFE two rooms away from the bedroom. I have a quality PISTOL (.40 XD) with a mounted LIGHT and two extra mags to get me to my safe, if needed. But my home is small, hallways are tight, so this pistol is probably what I will live or die by IN THE REAL WORLD...
The Chest Rig and other gear for me is two-fold: First, it allows me to have QUALITY GEAR for those events randomly occurring throughout humanity's existence where being MARTIALLY PREPARED may be the difference between life or death (Katrina-type natural disaster, societal decay, terrorism, etc...). At a minimum, it adds a DETERRENT QUOTIENT by "looking like a bad-a$$" to the huddled masses, like that evil BAYONET. :D
Secondly, it allows me to have plenty of what I need (ammo, hydration bladder, dump pouch, etc...) during TRAINING without being in full-blown combat gear, of which I do not own, need, nor have the funds to acquire. It also allows me to hang out on the line and participate more fully, both during training or casual shoots with friends.
But I do admit the "tacti-cool" bug biting me on more than one occassion... even if what I acquire is top-notch, battle-proven gear (researched from sites like this one) and QUALITY weaponry from "Tier 1" manufacturers rather than AIRSOFT poser-wear or sub-par arms manufacturers (you know who they are... see chart :D ). It is still WANNA_BE gear for me... unless some kind of SHTF event occurs.
Again, excellent thread! One of the best in awhile...
BTW, I too would like to know what "add-ons" or mods caused TWO M1A's and the almost fool-proof AK to go down HARD...
As for MINDSET, I would penalize the "three guns down" guy more for NOT LEARNING from this experience rather than the initial "wake up call" he got from two weapon platforms KNOWN to be reliable battle-proven designs. We just don't have enough info on this guy and the class to just wipe him off as a ninja-buffoon... As one person said, "At least he was getting training..." What he does with it now is the true MINDSET question.
Rmpl
aloharover
01-28-08, 17:34
You see the guy with the Dremel set has more knowledge than the dozens of designers.
Now there is a quote :D
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.