View Full Version : The SIMP principal and how it applies to me
There is a term floating about on this site: "the SIMP principal". A very simple principal (put forth by the resident gotm4) simply states that the more varied you train(the more guns you use), the less proficient you will be. If you specialize (the less you use), that is, narrow your training, the more you will improve.
Now I am a recovering compulsive gun buyer. If it was on sale and was in decent condition, I would buy it. I have in the past owned (just brand names): Glock, Sig Sauer, HK, Smith and Wesson, Kel-Tec (terrible gun), Colt, Armalite, LMT and yes I even had one Taurus (much to my shame).
It got to the point where I would have 10 handguns or more. Range sessions included a bunch of pistols and mediocre results at best. There would be a time where I would line up 6 guns and go from left to right shooting one then the next.
Then a personal situation happened, and I was in need of cash. So away went the vast majority of my guns. The ones i really wanted to keep I pawned (a truly stupid thing to do as it can be more expensive than to just sell it). I was left with 2 pistols: my beloved Sig Sauer P228 and the very useful Glock 26. Of course I couldn't go shoot as much as I wanted, but I went as much as I could (if even to put 50 rounds of WWB downrange). I was surprised how much better I got!! Groups got smaller, I was more confident with the DA on the Sig and I wasn't anticipating as much as before. The answer was obvious: get rid of the excess crap. It's that simple. So I went ahead and took a really long look at my collection. I kept those that were similar in operation (Sig pistols with DA/SA triggers) and my Glocks (all 9mm). I kept only 2 others that are more curiosities than anything else (HK P2000 and P7) and the rest was sold or given away (I gave my brother my Sig Pro and the Sig P230 as he is very fond of both). About the only thing left I have is an HK USP 45 (shot once and wasn't impressed).
My rifle section was easy to fix as the only odd-balls were a Sig 556 and an Armalite AR180 (original from Sterling). My favorite has always been the AR system. the only weird one I kept is an MSAR and that's just because I shoot it well, though not as well as the AR ( mabe I should trade it? Somthing to think about).
While there are many who own many more guns than I have in the past, and can remain proficient (or they say anyway), I cannot do the same. Give me a Glock 19 a 26 and a 22 and I will shoot each just about the same (the difference is minimal to me). Some will point out some esoteric difference in weight and recoil and the overall "feel" of the gun. I am not so sensitive (my senses are not that keen apparently). For me the P228 and the P229 are similar enough so that I can shoot them almost the same, though some will tell me how can I not notice the stainless slide not being so very much heavier? Well I don't, at least not to the point that it affects my shooting. Ah well, better for me I suppose.
The SIMP principal also affected my "gear". I am currently waiting for my Eagle/SKD to compliment my CCW holsters. Honestly after getting ALICE gear and Enhanced load bearing gear and even the FLC ( and god knows how many MOLLE pouches) I tried a simple chest rig (on loan) and found it to be the best thing I could have. See? Keeping it simple really works.
Another point: Instead of getting all those guns I should have gotten a few, then some holsters, mags, spare parts and invested in serious TRAINING!!! This is my next step, I will need to find out when the nest class of pistol and/or carbine course will be in Texas and get my lazy ass over there.
One last clarification: I am not a LEO or Military or a gun guru or a gunsmith. I am a regular guy (civilian) who likes to shoot, my opinions are my own and are from my perspective and experience only. I am sure others have had different ones. I am also very opinionated and if I said anything that offends anyone, please accept my apologies.
Thanks for all the info and for keeping all the BS out of here guys!!
woodandsteel
05-25-09, 17:16
So, in other words, the SIMP principal is kind of like the old adage, "Beware the man with one gun, He will know ho to use it".;)
Seriously, you do bring up some valid points. Especially with holsters. It is very improtant to train with your gear. Practice holstering without looking at your holster.
I noticed that when I took my wife's HK USP out to the range to qualify with it as an off duty weapon, I had problems. I was so used to the short trigger reset of the Glock, that i was having difficutly firing the HK rapidly.
I have a safe full of guns that I do not shoot. I really wish I would have put that money to more magazines, ammo and training/shooting.
i carry a glock 19 and a glock 26. i feel very confident in my ability to place fast accurate shots with both. :cool: i definitely agree that trying to spread yourself too thin can be a bad idea. sure variety is the spice of life, but make sure to stay proficient with what you carry.
it's also great having 2 guns that share about 80% of their parts.
SO its KISS, though I hesitate to say that as some get butthurt when that term is used in proximity to what they perceive as a bash against their ARs...or whatever
The concept is that a person's skill generally has an inverse relationship to the number of guns he brings to the range.
A buddy of mine (and a very famous instructor whose name shall remain, um, nameless) sent me this a while back:
Power-SIMP
The guy who brings a .50 AE Desert Eagle, .44 Redhawk and .454 Casull revolvers all for the same range session. Can be observed firing and jerking the trigger wildly at paper plates 2 yards away or refrigerator boxes at 20 yards. Can be heard a mile away… "Holy shit…did you see the hole it made…heeeeeyuuuuk-yuk-yuk-yuk" Typically an archaic looking laser sight is mounted to the trigger guards.
Tactical-SIMP
The guy who brings his AR-15, SKS, M1A, AK and 870 w/pistol grip and 100 round bandoleer all for the same range session consisting of less than 60 rounds total, even though he has a Beta-C Mag. Shoots at Osama Bin Laden targets or gallon jugs filled with red dye.
Wuss-SIMP
The guy who has a dozen different handguns in the same session complete with the factory box and wrap. Wipes the fingerprints off each part before restocking in the case. Does not know the meaning of "IWB". Thinks IDPA is a Pennsylvania drivers license. Only shoots NRA targets with a black bullseye, "Shoot-N-See" targets, or balloons. Cries online about what to do about the scratch in his slide.
Carry-SIMP
The guy who brings at least 10 different mfg. handguns in the same session. Draws from shoulder holsters and fanny packs. Checks his "six" after every run, even though 2 poppers he shot at are still standing. Carry gear always made of nylon and was purchased at the range store.
Wonder-SIMP
A combination of all the above.
Squinting, cup and saucer grip, flinching and poor stance are all common traits as well. They must be reminded constantly to wear eye protection. Despite the grand investments made in their firearms, the SIMP will venture 600 miles out of the way to save 50 cents on a 20 round box of Gold Dot.
Jay Cunningham
05-25-09, 22:01
Tactical-SIMP
The guy who brings his AR-15, SKS, M1A, AK and 870 w/pistol grip and 100 round bandoleer all for the same range session consisting of less than 60 rounds total, even though he has a Beta-C Mag. Shoots at Osama Bin Laden targets or gallon jugs filled with red dye.
Is this the same guy who brings his hot little teenage girlfriend to the range and forces her to shoot his "assault rifles?"
Mr.Goodtimes
05-26-09, 00:22
I have several guns, however, i only shoot two. My M4 Carbine and my beretta 92.
all the guns i own except for my 92 and M4 were handed down through the family and are just safe queens.
Instead of building three different m4's at one time and buying multiple handguns, i bought the handgun i wanted for my purposes, and the rifle i wanted. I made my m4 just like i want it, and have my beretta tuned up nicely. now i spend 90% of my gun money on ammo.
when i first bought my beretta, i had been shooting a sig 226 (my dads) for years. and i shot this gun extremely well. i should punch out about a 3in ragged hole at 20 yards all night at the range messin around. when i got my beretta and started shooting it, my groups were about the size of a vollyball at the same distance, if you wanna call those groups...
after shooting the beretta now about twice a month for the past three months, ive noticed my groups shrink dramatically. i can now shoot my beretta as well as i used to shoot my dads old sig.
when i go to shoot, i only bring my 92 and my M4, and as a result ive become very comfortable with these two weapons.
Business_Casual
05-26-09, 07:53
HillbillySIMP - uses a wire hanger to secure the stock to the action instead of the proper screw. Made his own pistol magazines out of discarded cell phone batteries and elastic car parts. Has two XD40 pistols holstered on his belt and eight magazines, despite shooting 250 rounds has only hit the target 9 times.
M_P
This all ties back to my "why do guns attract so many retards?" thesis. :p
I figured out a few years ago that I'm not smart enough and don't shoot enough to be proficient (for me) with more than one platform at a time. I find that I can keep the same level of skill with two platforms if I alternate with them, but that I'll be at about 75% of proficient with either gun.
It took me all of 2008 and 4k+/- rounds with the AK to finally feel like I "get it" in an EAG class in December of that year. It took me at least two months and 500 rounds or so to get back to feeling up to speed with my "native" AR.
In a match setting, we have very few shooters that come out with more than one gun month to month that are also good at shooting any of them. I watch them snatch the trigger, forget how to chamber a round, bumble their reloads, etc.
Good point about the holster/carry locations too. I once worked with a guy that would carry on his ankle, in a pocket, strong side, cross draw, SOB, and in a shoulder holster, with the pistol in a different place on any given day. I always joked with him that he'd look like he was having a seizure if he ever really needed to draw the gun.
7GN, there's nothing wrong with collecting. I don't get it, but there's nothing wrong with it. If you don't need the cash to pay bills those old friends in the safe certainly aren't hurting anything.
Some of the guys I know that train/compete/carry with one gun will make sure they always end a range session with that gun but can be seen at the range from time to time plinking away with one of their old favorites. They just always go back to the carry gun before they leave and retrain the finger (or so the theory goes).
sigmundsauer
05-26-09, 16:47
Some of the guys I know that train/compete/carry with one gun will make sure they always end a range session with that gun but can be seen at the range from time to time plinking away with one of their old favorites. They just always go back to the carry gun before they leave and retrain the finger (or so the theory goes).
You have described me.
Back when I had the time to compete regularly in IDPA I would ensure that I spent extra time practicing with the gun I would compete with prior to a match (which is the same gun that I carry), but most of my range sessions included time with at least one or two other pistols that I simply enjoy shooting or am constantly evaluating their relative merits against my preferred weapon.
I shoot, first, because I enjoy it. Second, because it is a survival skill. And lastly, I compete because I feel that it reinforces conditions that I cannot replicate on the range....and I like to win from time to time.
I am exposed to a variety of weapons and feel that there is value in being proficient on all of them. Don't make the mistake of defining proficiency as having to be a master class competitor on any particular pistol. I feel that I am proficient on many different weapons as a result and can transition relatively seamlessly. I definitely have my favorites, though. I don't really have the luxury (or the resources) of only mastering one pistol at the exclusion of others.
So, what kind of SIMP is it when you shoot the piss out of one gun (say, 50-60,000 rounds) until it nearly self destructs and then change to something else every six months? :D T&E-SIMP?
Tim
So, what kind of SIMP is it when you shoot the piss out of one gun (say, 50-60,000 rounds) until it nearly self destructs and then change to something else every six months?
The kind everyone wishes they could be. :cool:
The kind everyone wishes they could be. :cool:
+1 :D
In the context of the SIMP principle, what do you think of utilizing different models within the same weapon system as well as different weapon systems that have the same basic manual of arms although different grip angles, triggers, etc? Specifically, I am thinking of a S&W M&P45 for use in cold Midwestern winters, a Glock 19 the majority of the rest of the time, and occasionally a Glock 26 when clothing/circumstances dictate?
John_Wayne777
05-26-09, 20:49
I'm at a bit of a crossroads though, because there are handguns I really like such as my S&W 686, or my Sig 228, but don't really have a need for...not quite sure what to do with them.
What I do...keep them, shoot them for fun occasionally. Spend most of your time (in the 95% range) on your carry guns. When I carried my 1911 I shot that more than any other handgun I had. Now that I don't carry it often, it spends most of it's time put away. I have to dig it out of mothballs (along with mags and other stuff) to get ready for the Vickers 1911 class in a couple of weeks.
Nothing wrong with having lots of guns...but I make a distinction between guns I own for serious social purposes and guns I own for collector's interest or fun. The vast majority of my trigger time is on the serious social purposes guns. The fun guns get pulled out every now and then when I head up to a buddy's farm for some R&R.
John_Wayne777
05-26-09, 20:54
In the context of the SIMP principle, what do you think of utilizing different models within the same weapon system as well as different weapon systems that have the same basic manual of arms although different grip angles, triggers, etc? Specifically, I am thinking of a S&W M&P45 for use in cold Midwestern winters, a Glock 19 the majority of the rest of the time, and occasionally a Glock 26 when clothing/circumstances dictate?
Keeping your carry guns within the same family is a good way to maximize the value of training you have on a particular platform. If, for instance, you have a lot of trigger time on say a G17 because it's an issue gun, a G26 as a BUG or CC piece will help take advantage of the Glock-fu you've learned by training with the G17. It's also a good way to save some money on carry equipment and accessories.
John_Wayne777
05-26-09, 20:59
So, what kind of SIMP is it when you shoot the piss out of one gun (say, 50-60,000 rounds) until it nearly self destructs and then change to something else every six months? :D T&E-SIMP?
Tim
Obsessive Compulsive Attention Deficit SIMP.
Gotta shoot the M&P. Yeah. Gotta shoot the M&P. Yeah. 60,000 rounds. Yeah. Definitely 60,000 rounds. Yeah. 2:00, time for more M&P forum. Yeah.
***Someone enters stage left and hands Rainman a new gun***
Gotta shoot the HK. Yeah. 50,000 rounds. Yeah. Definitely 50,000 rounds. Yeah. UPS driver outside with more ammo. Yeah. Gotta register at HKPro. Yeah.
***Someone enters stage left and hands Rainman a new gun***
If you spill a case of ammo on the ground, with just one glance I can tell you how long it will take me to shoot it all. :cool:
Kyle E. Coyote
05-26-09, 23:27
The concept is that a person's skill generally has an inverse relationship to the number of guns he brings to the range.
A buddy of mine (and a very famous instructor whose name shall remain, um, nameless) sent me this a while back:
Power-SIMP
The guy who brings a .50 AE Desert Eagle, .44 Redhawk and .454 Casull revolvers all for the same range session. Can be observed firing and jerking the trigger wildly at paper plates 2 yards away or refrigerator boxes at 20 yards. Can be heard a mile away… "Holy shit…did you see the hole it made…heeeeeyuuuuk-yuk-yuk-yuk" Typically an archaic looking laser sight is mounted to the trigger guards.
Tactical-SIMP
The guy who brings his AR-15, SKS, M1A, AK and 870 w/pistol grip and 100 round bandoleer all for the same range session consisting of less than 60 rounds total, even though he has a Beta-C Mag. Shoots at Osama Bin Laden targets or gallon jugs filled with red dye.
Wuss-SIMP
The guy who has a dozen different handguns in the same session complete with the factory box and wrap. Wipes the fingerprints off each part before restocking in the case. Does not know the meaning of "IWB". Thinks IDPA is a Pennsylvania drivers license. Only shoots NRA targets with a black bullseye, "Shoot-N-See" targets, or balloons. Cries online about what to do about the scratch in his slide.
Carry-SIMP
The guy who brings at least 10 different mfg. handguns in the same session. Draws from shoulder holsters and fanny packs. Checks his "six" after every run, even though 2 poppers he shot at are still standing. Carry gear always made of nylon and was purchased at the range store.
Wonder-SIMP
A combination of all the above.
Squinting, cup and saucer grip, flinching and poor stance are all common traits as well. They must be reminded constantly to wear eye protection. Despite the grand investments made in their firearms, the SIMP will venture 600 miles out of the way to save 50 cents on a 20 round box of Gold Dot.
That's genius, pure gold. Whoever wrote that deserves a big pat on the back.
That's genius, pure gold. Whoever wrote that deserves a big pat on the back.
Yes he does. :cool:
He also wanted me to make up some "Don't be a SIMP" t-shirts to sell at my site. :p
He also wanted me to make up some "Don't be a SIMP" t-shirts to sell at my site. :p
How about...
SIMPly the best! :cool:
sigmundsauer
05-28-09, 12:08
How about...
SIMPly the best! :cool:
...or worst. :D
Tim
Is this the same guy who brings his hot little teenage girlfriend to the range and forces her to shoot his "assault rifles?"
Yes, but he gets a pass for bringing a hot chick to the range.:D
This thread has summarized very well a lot of the same conclusions I've come to over the last few years. I still have a few "toys" and "plinkers" but the vast majority of my time and budget is spent with the G17/19/26 and AR carbine platforms, all with similar setups.
I can only shoot one gun at once. I don't need to practice with 10 different platforms with 10 different manuals of arms when they all sling the same round.
LittleRedToyota
05-28-09, 14:41
Made his own pistol magazines out of discarded cell phone batteries and elastic car parts.
i dunno...if they actually function, i gotta at least give the guy some macgyver points for that one. ;)
This really illustrates the difference between this site, and others. On another forum dedicated to a single handgun platform I posted something similar to this, and I was called everything from Rambo, a Keyboard Commando, to a Bob Munden wannabe.
This really illustrates the difference between this site, and others. On another forum dedicated to a single handgun platform I posted something similar to this, and I was called everything from Rambo, a Keyboard Commando, to a Bob Munden wannabe.
Now that I'm a member here I rarely venture out to other sites. :cool:
It does suck when you run into the mindset challenged individuals from other sites.
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