PDA

View Full Version : M193 in the leg.



cebuboy
05-26-09, 08:14
Pictures of a leg hit by M193 from an M16A1, about an across the road distance...

Bullet went in right inner thigh...

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/14042009091.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/DSC00108.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/14042009092.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/14042009093.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/DSC00022.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/DSC00023.jpg

Bullet did not hit bone, fracture caused by shock wave of the passing bullet.

El Mac
05-26-09, 08:18
I reckon that will leave a mark.

PlatoCATM
05-26-09, 08:57
what's the backstory?

Mr.Goodtimes
05-26-09, 09:01
yea id like to know what the story on this is? that looks like a lot of damage, especially from a round that has been proven to be an ineffective round. i recon this dude in the pic might tell you other wise.

cebuboy
05-26-09, 09:22
According to victim, drunk cop shot him after altercation.
According to cop, it was an accident.

Iraq Ninja
05-26-09, 09:47
Was this in the Philippines and this was after the doc did the exploratory cuts into the wound?

woodandsteel
05-26-09, 09:49
Is there a link to a news story about this incident?

Wayne Dobbs
05-26-09, 10:01
Looks like a classic M193 yaw and fragmentation wound. It's only ineffective if it remains point forward during the penetration and doesn't hit anything important. The big slam on the M193 was the lack of consistancy in when and where it would yaw and fragment. Looks like this one worked pretty well.

See the following:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26905

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/M193.jpg

Mr.Goodtimes
05-26-09, 10:24
did this guy get to keep his leg? that looks like a horrible wound.

also, is this what my hornady 75gr TAP will do on a regular basis?

cebuboy
05-26-09, 10:25
Yes it happened here in Cebu, Philippines, IIRC the pictures were taken after cleaning the wound, will ask if this was before or after the exploratory cuts.

Sorry no link for the news article.

bernieb90
05-26-09, 10:53
X-rays indicate that the Femur was hit. In this case the yaw/fragmentation cycle normally seen in tissue is irrelevant. A bulet that may not fragment in tissue may do so when hitting bone. Bone fragments will also act as secondary projectiles. If no bone was hit we may have been looking at a guy who walked out of the ER in a couple hours.

Failure2Stop
05-26-09, 11:31
Bullet did not hit bone, fracture caused by shock wave of the passing bullet.

How was this concluded?

bernieb90
05-26-09, 12:24
There seems to be some debate as to whether penetrating projectile wounds are capable of breaking bones in this manner without direct impact. Dr. Fackler seems to think that such injuries are not possible.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/shock_wave_myth.pdf

TiroFijo
05-26-09, 13:02
I've seen a few feral pigs and animals the size of small deer shot with this ammo...

Even considering a very early yaw and large, shallow temporary cavity in an extremity (not usual) and I don't think the M193 can break a large bone like the femur only due to shock wave... I'm pretty sure the bullet hit the bone in this case.

Cameron
05-26-09, 13:12
What they don't in the pics is that his head popped right off his body due to the massive hyrdoelectricstaticelectricityshocker force.

Cameron

Iraq Ninja
05-26-09, 13:41
did this guy get to keep his leg? that looks like a horrible wound.

also, is this what my hornady 75gr TAP will do on a regular basis?

Actually, it looks worse than it really was since this is after the docs cleaned the wound.

I am concerned people are looking at these pics and assuming that the bullet did all of this and getting a hard on at all the apparent damage from a 5.56.

Thomas M-4
05-26-09, 14:14
Actually, it looks worse than it really was since this is after the docs cleaned the wound.

I am concerned people are looking at these pics and assuming that the bullet did all of this and getting a hard on at all the apparent damage from a 5.56.

I agree what most people might be forgetting when you break a bone in the body you can have major swelling. Broke 2 bones in my hand years back it swelled so much it look like it was going to bust.+ the femur bone is the biggest bone in the body.

bkb0000
05-26-09, 14:15
while i'm sure its possible to snap bones with close rifle rounds, i would think that would be one of those 1 out of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kind of things. i'd really like to see something verifiable here

Thomas M-4
05-26-09, 15:06
In the X-ray shows fragments that look like bone fragments. I am by no means a doctor but in my teeny, tiny, experience in looking at x-rays bones and metals show up different and those fragments look the same as the bone. I don't believe that the bone was broke with hyd shock it looks like to me the bullet hit the bone.

decodeddiesel
05-26-09, 15:07
while i'm sure its possible to snap bones with close rifle rounds, i would think that would be one of those 1 out of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kind of things. i'd really like to see something verifiable here

Sounds like a perfect task for the Mythbusters lol.


What they don't in the pics is that his head popped right off his body due to the massive hyrdoelectricstaticelectricityshocker force.

Cameron

HAHA!!

Anyway a couple observations...

I am willing to bet this guy looses his leg over this.

Surprised the femoral artery was not damaged, and this guy didn't bleed out on the spot.

I am 100% sure that projectile hit the bone and the extensive trauma to the leg is a combination of the fragmentation but primarily the mechanical force from the shattered bone moving around in the leg.


I saw an Iraqi get shot in the top of his ass from behind with M855 at a range of about 20 feet. It hit and shattered his pelvis which in turn sent bone and bullet fragments into the kidneys and renal artery. He was running from us and the guy who shot him was trying to "wound him" to get him to stop. Didn't work out well...he died in minutes. Seeing this picture reminded me a lot of how that wound looked.

sjc3081
05-26-09, 15:18
I regularly shoot deer with 165gr 30 cal PSPBT bullets at 2,800fps. Rib bones adjacent to impact, remain intact. Ribs and leg bones stuck by the bullet shatter and send bone fragment and bullet fragments as secondary projectiles. I get 30cal entrance wounds and 1.5" exit wounds at contact distances less than 100 yards.

Iraqgunz
05-26-09, 15:44
That's what I was thinking as well. I'd be shocked if an M193 round did that much damage.


Actually, it looks worse than it really was since this is after the docs cleaned the wound.

I am concerned people are looking at these pics and assuming that the bullet did all of this and getting a hard on at all the apparent damage from a 5.56.

Shawn Dodson
05-26-09, 18:05
Dr. Fackler seems to think that such injuries are not possible. Fackler once remarked in one of his papers that, with a carefully placed thigh shot, he was able to predictably fracture swine femur just by the temporary cavity produced by M193. He also remarked that, although the potential existed for the temporary cavity to fracture large bones, in actual experience it was rare to happen.


In the X-ray shows fragments that look like bone fragments. They appear to be lead fragments to me as their white contrast suggests greater density than bone. Except for one large fragment I don't see any small bone fragments at all. I do, however, see what appears to be possible evidence of a grazing impact (missing bone in the shape of a half circle on the fragment {bottom pic} and the lower half of the femur {top pic}?) but I don't have much confidence in what think I see. The lack of small bone fragments shattered by an impacting bullet suggests to me that the femur wasn't hit.

Cheers!

DBR
05-26-09, 18:28
Fragments look like lead to me. Looks like the bullet might have grazed the bone and fragmented right next to it possibly causing the bone to fracture at the notch the grazing contact made.

Shawn Dodson
05-26-09, 18:30
I regularly shoot deer with 165gr 30 cal PSPBT bullets at 2,800fps. Rib bones adjacent to impact, remain intact. The location of maximum temporary cavity occurs at a penetration depth farther along the wound track than where the ribs are located.

Thomas M-4
05-26-09, 18:54
The location of maximum temporary cavity occurs at a penetration depth farther along the wound track than where the ribs are located.

I shot a deer broad side 7mm rem magnum 120 grain 3100-3200 fps
bullets entrance wound passed between 2 ribs no damage to the ribs.
Exit wound little smaller than a golf ball it did break 2 ribs but the bullet was fully expanded.

Derek_Connor
05-26-09, 19:03
not a radiologist or an MD, i do look at XRAYs every day.

Looks like fragments to me. It'd be nice to see the A/P scan a little more zoomed out..

prairiefire
05-28-09, 05:21
Hi guys! I'm the orthopedic surgeon who handled this case, and these are the facts:

Victim was shot with a 20-inch barreled M16A1 at 5-10 meters distance by cop. Victim claims a deliberate shot, cop claims an accident. Whatever.

Spent brass casing brought in by investigating cops show the headstamp "WCC 76".
Remaining 24 rounds of ammo in magazine showed all to be headstamped either "WCC 76" or "WCC 77".

Based on x-rays taken, IMHO the bullet did NOT hit the femur. These cases are fairly common here, since our cops use M16s and m193 ammo exclusively. Had the bullet hit the femur, the fracture pattern would be very different, would exhibit severe comminution usually for a length of up to 2 to 4 inches of the bone. Methinks the temporary cavitation was strong enough to break the femur by itself. We KNOW how a bone that is hit squarely by a high-velocity bullet looks like.

The fragments you see in the xrays are all metallic, as the whiteness is much greater than that of the bone. Bullet fragments could be seen ON the wound itself, as silvery specks. The xrays show fragments on one side only of the thigh, which makes me think that the bullet fragmented after @ 4 inches of penetration.

The pics you see of the wound shows it as it arrived in the E.R.. NO manipulation of the wound was done prior to the picture-taking. No probing, no extension of the wound. Wound is as seen when victim arrived.

On surgery, empty cavity in the anterior thigh was around 4x4 inches wide. Leg was saved, since the neurovascular structures were not hit, though thigh circumference was much narrower post-op, as alot of devitalized muscle had to be removed.

Wounds this severe on the extremities are seen fairly commonly here, and when we see one like this, we immediately thinks " ah, another m16 hit...", and invariably, we are correct. Torso hits usually result in victims dead as they arrive in the E.R., or die soon after. Autopsies invariably reveal large cavities when bullets fragmented, especially when the liver, intestines, and muscle are hit.

I was able to request one cartridge from the magazine involved, and chronographed it at the range. M.V. was 3227 fps 10 feet from the muzzle.

Our cops and soldiers have the highest regard for this ammo, be it headstamped WCC, RPA, and BMP ( the last two being the locally manufactured M193).
Even being more than 30 years old, those WCC ammo keeps on rockin'. Based on the cases I have seen, I am not surprised.

decodeddiesel
05-28-09, 09:12
Wow, thanks Doc. for coming here and posting that. Very interesting to see some light shed on this by a true professional/expert.

Oscar 319
05-28-09, 10:04
Wow, thanks Doc. for coming here and posting that. Very interesting to see some light shed on this by a true professional/expert.

No doubt. Very interesting.

prairiefire
05-28-09, 11:15
Naaah, not an expert. DocGKR here is the expert ;)

Thanks for the kind words.

Addendum: Bullet hit the ANTERIOR portion of the distal thigh, in front of the femur, right into the distal quadriceps femoris muscle complex. Thats why the entry and exit wounds are kinda close together. You could say it was a peripheral hit.

Seems that bullet was one of those that DocGKR here listed as the 10% or so of M193s that fragment within the first 4 inches of penetration.

You can bet I'm looking for some of that WCC 76-77 stuff now!:D

TiroFijo
05-29-09, 07:55
Very interesting... does somebody knows if this happens often or only if "all the planets are aligned"?

This very early yaw is related to ammo characteristics of a particular lot, random occurency due to minor defects in particular bullets, some minor defects in the rifle's barrel crown, or???

larry0071
05-29-09, 08:24
Very interesting... does somebody knows if this happens often or only if "all the planets are aligned"?

This very early yaw is related to ammo characteristics of a particular lot, random occurency due to minor defects in particular bullets, some minor defects in the rifle's barrel crown, or???

I'm just tossing in an observation based on the comments that you read here over time in regaurds to the 5.56 ammo and it's effect.... this is most likely going to happen when the moon and stars align. I have read many times over the last year about the 5.56 round from the guys that (at least claim) are in the military, and you don't hear much about dramatic damage and one-shot-stop hits from this round.

Just going by what I have gathered from doing a lot of trolling ;)

Failure2Stop
05-29-09, 09:01
Very interesting... does somebody knows if this happens often or only if "all the planets are aligned"?

This very early yaw is related to ammo characteristics of a particular lot, random occurency due to minor defects in particular bullets, some minor defects in the rifle's barrel crown, or???

This happens about 10% of the time. There is also about 10% that yaw very late in penetration. This has a lot to do with fleet yaw variability, which in very simple terms means that the angle of impact changes (sometimes dramatically) between barrel to barrel and even bullet to bullet.

The interesting thing about this is that the femur was broken by temporary cavity alone, as stated by the professional that personally treated the wound (by the way, thanks Doc). This is a "planets aligning" type of event, ok, not that special, more like winning $100 from a scratch-off lotto ticket.


I have read many times over the last year about the 5.56 round from the guys that (at least claim) are in the military, and you don't hear much about dramatic damage and one-shot-stop hits from this round.


I have personally seen and inflicted some pretty nasty 5.56 wounds, and one-shot stops with torso hits.

Bear in mind that a determined attacker can continue unabaited for 10 to 15 seconds even with a gaping hole in his heart due to the amount of blood and oxygen retained in the brain. One should never expect a one shot stop, whether shooting somebody with a 9mm or dropping precision electronics attached to 500 lbs of high explosives.

JimmyB62
05-29-09, 10:24
One should never expect a one shot stop, whether shooting somebody with a 9mm or dropping precision electronics attached to 500 lbs of high explosives.

This is definately Sig-worthy. It would probably help some folks to have it stamped across their forehead backwards, so they could read it from time to time in the mirror.

prairiefire
05-29-09, 10:54
IMHO, what must have made that m193 bullet fragment as it did was:

1) Close range, 5-10 meters distance, which means that the velocity has barely started to slow down from its 3200+ fps starting speed.

2) It hit one of the thickest muscles in the body, the quadriceps femoris complex ( the "quads" to you guys who work out ), in a short but husky, powerfully-built 47 y.o. manual laborer.

I understand that not all M193 bullets fragment as dramatically as this one did, but oh boy, when it does fragment, the results can be spectacular!

JimmyB62
05-29-09, 12:58
IMHO, what must have made that m193 bullet fragment as it did was:

1) Close range, 5-10 meters distance, which means that the velocity has barely started to slow down from its 3200+ fps starting speed.

2) It hit one of the thickest muscles in the body, the quadriceps femoris complex ( the "quads" to you guys who work out ), in a short but husky, powerfully-built 47 y.o. manual laborer.

I understand that not all M193 bullets fragment as dramatically as this one did, but oh boy, when it does fragment, the results can be spectacular!

FYI Doc,

My comment above wasn't directed at you. It was out of irritation from the countless times I've read from or heard from someone who believes his <insert favorite gun/caliber> is a death ray and it's mere presence is guaranteed to stop an attack.

prairiefire
05-29-09, 15:29
Ey, no offense insinuated or taken with your post, mr. Jim! I got the gist of your post, and I wholeheartedly agree with ya!:D;)

Just added that last post of mine as an afterthought.;)

Rampant Colt
05-29-09, 15:49
What they don't in the pics is that his head popped right off his body due to the massive hyrdoelectricstaticelectricityshocker force.

Cameron

Duhhh! It's called "Ballistic Pressure Wave® " :p

JHC
05-29-09, 18:09
Does anyone have a line on purchasing this ammo in bulk? I mean this exact lot! [edit - HellOOO? This is sarcasm! :rolleyes: ]

Several years ago I shot a large 8pt whitetail broadside at a range of 20 feet with a Federal 55 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. On field dressing and butchering I found two ribs broken around the entrance wound. FWIW. It was the rut. Maybe some other buck broke one or both of his ribs.

WS6
05-30-09, 01:08
I had a 55-gallon plastic drum. Pretty tough shit. Anyways, I fired some PPU M193 into it from about 5' up. Straight down into the water-filled drum. IT had about 30" of water in it or so. I hit it in the middle (aiming down, projectile went into it like a basketball entering a hoop. Did not hit or go near the sides. Did not exit the bottom. It ripped the drum open in several areas pretty severely.

I understand the dynamics of that are vastly different from a thigh, but there IS a LOT of energy dumped into surrounding areas.

bernieb90
05-30-09, 01:19
prairiefire,
My applologies for assuming the bone was hit if in fact it was not. It looks like this guy was ended up being the rare case when M193 yaws, and fragments early while passing close enough to bone to cause a fracture. He was lucky in the sense that the Femoral artery was not hit.

lanceriley
05-30-09, 07:08
I noticed that even the RP and BMP rounds do yaw very early.

I had a 1/12 barrel cut down to 11.5in

shot "fair game" about 20lbs. scrawny @40yards. entry wound was a little red dot. but exit was 3inches.

DocGKR
05-31-09, 18:00
Wayne Dobbs—Your points are 100% right on!

Shawn Dodson—Absolutely correct with your comments.

Failure2Stop—Good thoughts, as well.

Prairiefire—Thank you very much for your insight into this case, I certainly appreciate your input! Please continue to contribute to the forum here.

For all of the folks who seem to think this is unusual M193 terminal performance, I suggest you CAREFULLY re-read Dr. Fackler’s comments here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26905, as this looks like a pretty typical wound from a 5.56 mm M193 that had relatively early yaw in tissue, especially when fired at close range out of a 20” barrel. As Doc “Prairiefire” so cogently notes above, not all M193 bullets work as dramatically as this one did, but when M193 does have early upset the results can be spectacular! The problem with M193 is not that it does not work, but that it is inconsistent. As I have previously written:


”When fired from the M16A1, the U.S. M193 55 gr FMJ boat-tail bullet enters the tissue, leaving a small punctate entrance wound, and then travels point forward for 4.7" approximately 70% of the time. Keep in mind that approximately 15% of the time the M193 projectile may exhibit earlier initial yaw while 15% of the time the initial yaw point will be much deeper. If the bullet leaves tissue before yawing, it will leave a small punctate exit wound and will have caused minimal tissue disruption along the wound tract. If the projectile yaws in tissue, it will turn to 90 degrees, flatten, and fracture at the cannelure. The flattened bullet nose remains in one piece and retains 60% of the original bullet weight. The 40% of the bullet behind the cannelure shatters into many fragments that can spread up to 2.75" radially away from the wound tract. These fragment each cut their own path through the surrounding tissue, multiply perforating it. Temporary cavitation then exerts its stretch effects on this weakened tissue, synergistically increasing the permanent cavity by detaching tissue pieces. Wounds in body segments thicker than 4.7" show greatly enlarged permanent and temporary cavities and can create stellate exit wounds of 3.5 to 4.7" measured form the ends opposite the skin splits. The degree of bullet fragmentation is dependent on velocity. As the range to the target increases, the striking velocity decreases. At 80 to 180 meters, the bullet yaws, breaks at the cannelure into two large pieces, but does not fragment. Beyond 180 meters, the bullet remains intact and creates wounds by the same mechanism as the Soviet 5.45x39mm M74 bullet. Yaw variation can be a result of both AOA and/or fleet yaw issue.”

Angle-of-Attack (AOA) variations between different projectiles, even within the same lot of ammo, as well as Fleet Yaw variations between different rifles, were recently elucidated by the JSWB-IPT. These yaw issues were most noticeable at close ranges (usually under 25 m) and were more prevalent with certain calibers and bullet styles. Projectile impact angle-of-Attack (AOA) variability is caused by bullet to bullet variations at impact and can substantially alter wound severity; this factor is more prevalent with certain calibers and projectile types. Testing demonstrated that 5.56 mm is highly susceptible to AOA variations, particularly when using FMJ projectiles such as M193 & M855. For example, with 5.56 mm FMJ, at higher AOA’s, for example 2-3 degrees, bullets had a shorter neck length (NL) and upset rapidly, thus providing adequate terminal effects; at low AOA, like 0-1 degree, the projectiles penetrated deeper than ideal prior to initial upset (ie. long NL) with significantly reduced terminal effects. Note that other calibers were less susceptible to AOA variations than 5.56 mm, OTM’s tend to have less AOA issues than FMJ, while PT and JSP’s tend to not have major AOA induced terminal performance changes. Fleet Yaw is the terminal performance AOA variation caused by inherent variability in each rifle; Fleet Yaw is caused by weapon to weapon variations separate from projectile induced AOA issues. What this means is that two shooters firing the same lot of 5.56 mm FMJ from their M4’s with identical shot placement can have dramatically different terminal performance results: one shooter states that his ammo is working great and is effective at dropping bad guys, while the other complains his opponents are not being incapacitated because his 5.56 mm FMJ is zipping right through the targets without upsetting. Both shooters are telling the truth.

Anyone trying to search out the same lot of M193 ammo used in this shooting in a vain delusion that it somehow offers “better” terminal performance is willfully ignoring the above…

Odd Job
05-31-09, 18:35
Looks too distal # for a femoral nail.
Did you apply ex-fix, Prairie?

Edit: I recommend redacting two of the images as follows:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/14042009092.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/DSC00108.jpg

Jaws
05-31-09, 19:39
One more thing could contribute to this dramatic wound, beside the fragmenting bullet.
This was the femur that was shattered. While standing, there's quite a bit of pressure on this bone.
Once broken in two sharp pieces of bone, the only thing holding the weight of the man was the muscle between those sharp pieces of bone.
One of my friends broke his femur few years back and when he fell, the bone tore up a lot of muscle around the open fracture without the help of any bullets.:(

It took him months and few surgical interventions to recover. :(

prairiefire
06-01-09, 10:22
prairiefire,
My applologies for assuming the bone was hit if in fact it was not. It looks like this guy was ended up being the rare case when M193 yaws, and fragments early while passing close enough to bone to cause a fracture. He was lucky in the sense that the Femoral artery was not hit.


Hey, no need to apologize Mr. Berns :D. ALL others in the hospital where I work who are not familiar with these kinds of injuries also thought that the femur broke due to a direct hit, but....

Adult human bone in the area where this happened, the distal femur, is relatively brittle stuff. It can bend a little, but too much force and it snaps. Had the bone been hit, it would have shattered into many, many small pieces for a length of 2-4 inches, in other words a very distinctive fracture pattern, different from the one you see here in the X-Rays.

My mentors usually offhandedly blamed it on hydraulic shock wave/pressure wave/hydrostatic pressure wave/whatever. Nowadays, because of what I've learned here and the other good gun forums, I just tell my residents " it is caused by the temporary cavitation effects of the passing high velocity bullet". :D

prairiefire
06-01-09, 10:27
Looks too distal # for a femoral nail.
Did you apply ex-fix, Prairie?

Edit: I recommend redacting two of the images as follows:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/14042009092.jpg

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/DSC00108.jpg


Yessir, an external fixator was used here. The area affected ( too distal in the femur, as you noticed ), the condition of the wound, plus the amount of contamination present ( victim fell into a muddy street puddle after being shot ), precluded the use of nails or plates for repair.

Will ask cebuboy to help me post the latest pics of the patient as he is recovering.

lanceriley
06-01-09, 10:31
that's really hideous.

cebuboy
06-05-09, 09:00
Looks too distal # for a femoral nail.

Edit: I recommend redacting two of the images as follows:



Oops my bad, fixed the picture for ya...

cebuboy
06-06-09, 21:55
Updated pictures of the wound...

He got to keep his leg after all...

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/DSC00048.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/DSC00049.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/DSC00051.jpg

lanceriley
06-06-09, 22:39
wow! look at the missing piece! the bullet sure did take out a chunk out of his leg.

DocGKR
06-06-09, 23:11
Actually, a lot of the "missing" tissue is likely due to surgical debridement.

5pins
06-06-09, 23:45
How much use is he expected to get back? 80%, 90%, 50%?

lanceriley
06-07-09, 04:13
Actually, a lot of the "missing" tissue is likely due to surgical debridement.

just like I said... m193 took a big chunk outa his leg... even if it's due to surgery.
no m193 = no surgery

bill_d
06-07-09, 09:04
doc prariefire,
my compliments to you and your team on your outstanding efforts and results in this case.
thanks to you and cebu-boy we have a chance to see both the devastation of our weapons of war juxtaposed with the incredible ability of your medical skills and the human body to adapt and overcome . for the younger ones, a sobering teaching tool.

could you give a general time frame for the time elapsed in the healing process dipicted in the photos?
judging from the posting dates, i assume that more than a few days had elapsed.

prairiefire
06-09-09, 12:27
The latest pics are 1 1/2 months from the date of injury and initial surgery, about 45 days or so. The victim has undergone 4 surgeries, 3 for surgical debridement and redebridement, one for realigning his external fixators after a failed suicide attempt ( attempted to jump off the hospital corridor).

A lot of muscle had to debrided, i.e. removed, as they turned necrotic ( died) . This was expected, and the patient informed, so no surprise there. As can be seen, original distal thigh circumference has decreased over 50%. Most remaining viable muscle is now located at the inner side and back of the femur, as most of those in front lateral side died. If you can see the original x-rays, where the majority of the fragging happened, is where the muscles did not survive.

Doc GKR is right. Most of the muscles were removed during surgical debridement, as they were not viable anymore. But I guess Lance is right too. The bullet destroyed those muscles, so they had to be removed.

50% or less function is expected. Osteomyelitis ( bone infection ) has set in, since the victim was not able to consistently purchase the needed medications, as they are very poor. The hospital was able to help also only so much. He will walk again, no problem, but he will have to limp for the rest of his life.

Ah well, this much i can say: When M193 works, and frags well, its a surgeon's nightmare! ;)

lanceriley
06-09-09, 13:16
a very gruesome reminder of a round taken for granted.

Irish
06-09-09, 13:20
Thanks for sharing some valuable information and professional insight, I learned something new today.

bill_d
06-10-09, 16:44
thanks prairefire,
that information helps complete the picture.
many can learn from this.....reality.

parishioner
06-13-09, 01:35
Updated pictures of the wound...

He got to keep his leg after all...

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/DSC00048.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/DSC00049.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/DSC00051.jpg

Talk about atrophy. Yikes.

RWK
06-14-09, 16:38
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on or otherwise pointed out that the rifle used was an M16A1 - 20" bbl, 1/12 twist.

DRich
06-14-09, 16:44
I'm surprised that nobody picked up on or otherwise pointed out that the rifle used was an M16A1 - 20" bbl, 1/12 twist.

It has been mentioned several times in this thread. Even Dr. Roberts discusses this point in post #44.

RWK
06-14-09, 19:39
It has been mentioned several times in this thread. Even Dr. Roberts discusses this point in post #44.

He edited that in after my post! :o

Failure2Stop
06-14-09, 20:30
Ah well, this much i can say: When M193 works, and frags well, its a surgeon's nightmare! ;)

Quick question-
How much do you think the wound was exascerbated by the victim's weight pushing the broken bone through the wound during collapse?

No agenda or implication, just curious.

prairiefire
06-16-09, 05:09
In my assessment, not much. Human skin is very tough and very elastic, and any increase in wound size brought about by the femur punching through in a fall from a standing height would be very small, if at all, based on our experience here in cases of open femur fractures brought about by non-ballistic causes. Femoral fracture punch-outs due to falls from great heights can tear up muscles pretty badly, but not if the fall was from standing height only.

The stellate ( star-shaped ) lacerations that are seen on the exit wound are typical of exiting high velocity projectiles, only that they are way larger here. .308-caliber extremity injuries ( usually from M14s ) that we have seen also have stellate-shaped exit wounds, but are usually smaller unless the bone was directly hit.

On exposing the femur bone ends for debridement, it was noted that both ends did not show any evidence of foreign matter sticking to the bone, thought the surrounding muscle had mud specks on them, which may mean that the bone ends did not exit enough to have contact with the surrounding environment, which in turn leads me to believe that the proximal femoral bone did not go out the wound much.

What cannot be seen in the photos are the sprinkling of very small silvery fragments all around the exposed muscle, which no doubt are fragments of the bullet. In view of this, I am of the opinion that the wound was wholly caused by the fragments.

DocGKR
06-16-09, 19:47
Concur with Doctor Prairiefire--the wound exhibits all the common classic characteristics of an early yaw, fragmenting 5.56 mm projectile.

dookie1481
07-01-09, 04:29
Wow, great thread, thanks to all the pros who have given their input.

Jay

DacoRoman
07-04-09, 17:46
Just found this thread..amazing..I wouldn't have believed that a femur can be fractured by just the pressure wave effects alone, and I'm still dubious, but I guess a fully fragmenting M193 round can be quite.."explosive"...but perhaps the round hit a glancing blow on the femur before going on to violently yaw and fragment, that provided enough force to fracture the femur but not cause a significantly comminuted fracture?

Failure2Stop
07-04-09, 18:44
Just found this thread..amazing..I wouldn't have believed that a femur can be fractured by just the pressure wave effects alone, and I'm still dubious, but I guess a fully fragmenting M193 round can be quite.."explosive"...but perhaps the round hit a glancing blow on the femur before going on to violently yaw and fragment, that provided enough force to fracture the femur but not cause a significantly comminuted fracture?

No no no no no no no.
The fracture was cause by the TEMPORARY CAVITY, which is a repeatable and consistent aspect of high-velocity, yawing rifle impacts.

Pressure Wave Effects are magic beans sold by purveyors of such miracles as definable "stopping power" and the "incapacitation index".

The entering bullet exerted enough direct pressure into the surrounding tissue to induce sufficient pressure to the femur to cause it to break. Nothing more, nothing less.

Pasteur
07-04-09, 18:56
Just found this thread..amazing..I wouldn't have believed that a femur can be fractured by just the pressure wave effects alone, and I'm still dubious, but I guess a fully fragmenting M193 round can be quite.."explosive"...but perhaps the round hit a glancing blow on the femur before going on to violently yaw and fragment, that provided enough force to fracture the femur but not cause a significantly comminuted fracture?

The possibility of indirect ballistic fractures of bone has been known for a long time. Ronald Bellamy discusses it in his contributions to the Textbook of Military Medicine, which contains some informative references. See p 153-154 of:

http://www.bordeninstitute.army.mil/published_volumes/conventional_warfare/chapter4/Pages26-49.pdf

Other relevant references are:

http://www.ramcjournal.com/2001/wounds_of_conflict/clasper.pdf

and

INDIRECT FRACTURES TO BONES BY BALLISTIC INJURY
DC Sherman, P Dougherty, CA Bir - jbiomech.com
Journal of Biomechanics, Volume 40, Issue null, Pages S46,
2007, Authors:DC Sherman; P. Dougherty; CA Bir.

DacoRoman
07-04-09, 22:46
No no no no no no no.
The fracture was cause by the TEMPORARY CAVITY, which is a repeatable and consistent aspect of high-velocity, yawing rifle impacts.

Pressure Wave Effects are magic beans sold by purveyors of such miracles as definable "stopping power" and the "incapacitation index".

The entering bullet exerted enough direct pressure into the surrounding tissue to induce sufficient pressure to the femur to cause it to break. Nothing more, nothing less.

Oops, OK perhaps I am using the wrong terminology, but the temporary stretch cavity is caused by a pressure wave created by the bullet traveling through soft tissue which displays viscoelastic properties correct? Bone, however does not have viscoelastic properties, so rather than stretching, it can presumably break, if the force creating the temporary stretch is significant enough.

I am not a ballistics expert, and I'm sure that DocGKR can help here, but I would be very surprised if the force creating the temporary stretch would be significant enough to break a bone like the femur, unless this guy had osteopenia or was extremely thin or something. Perhaps I'm wrong . But I would more likely imagine the bullet striking a tangential, glancing, blow to the femur, fracturing it (and then going on to yaw and fragment perhaps) yet not hitting it full on and thereby causing an expected comminuted fracture as has been discussed earlier by the treating doctor.


The possibility of indirect ballistic fractures of bone has been known for a long time. Ronald Bellamy discusses it in his contributions to the Textbook of Military Medicine, which contains some informative references. See p 153-154 of:

http://www.bordeninstitute.army.mil/...Pages26-49.pdf

Other relevant references are:

http://www.ramcjournal.com/2001/woun...ct/clasper.pdf

and

INDIRECT FRACTURES TO BONES BY BALLISTIC INJURY
DC Sherman, P Dougherty, CA Bir - jbiomech.com
Journal of Biomechanics, Volume 40, Issue null, Pages S46,
2007, AuthorsC Sherman; P. Dougherty; CA Bir.

Thanks for the links I'll check those out in the near future

DrJSW
07-04-09, 23:27
Concur with Doctor Prairiefire--the wound exhibits all the common classic characteristics of an early yaw, fragmenting 5.56 mm projectile.

I concur.

prairiefire
07-07-09, 12:53
Dr. 'Prairiefire',

do you by chance have any idea when the maximum stretch threshold of elastic flexible human tissues is reached, e.g. in thigh, large intestine, etc. I've asked this already in the TC thread. It seems it is not really possible to quantifiy as of which size TC the elastic tissues will tear, hence an estimate would suffice. And I mean without fragmentation.

Great thread, people.


I do not recall anymore the hard numbers on that sir, only that human skin is one of the toughest, if not the toughest, of all the tissues/organs in the human body with regards to elastic / stretch properties. In other words, it is one tough tissue to tear.

To Son of Vlad Tepes:

As previously mentioned earlier, a direct or even glancing hit by a projectile going at 3000+ fps will show a distinct, characteristic fracture pattern, one of severe comminution, and a worse soft tissue wound profile, as a lot of those bone fragments now become secondary missiles, adding to the effects of the bullet fragments on soft tissue. As the fragments are big and only very slightly comminuted, IMHO the bullet did not hit the femur at all. Would blame the TC for that.

A bone morphologic density test was performed on the victim 4 days after the injury, and the results showed NORMAL with the numbers on the high side, meaning the bone density was a bit on the dense side. IOW, very good, strong bone. Considering that the victim is male, 47 years old, of short, stocky build, and was previously very healthy, this is actually as expected.

Failure2Stop
07-07-09, 16:52
I am not a ballistics expert, and I'm sure that DocGKR can help here, but I would be very surprised if the force creating the temporary stretch would be significant enough to break a bone like the femur, unless this guy had osteopenia or was extremely thin or something. Perhaps I'm wrong . But I would more likely imagine the bullet striking a tangential, glancing, blow to the femur, fracturing it (and then going on to yaw and fragment perhaps) yet not hitting it full on and thereby causing an expected comminuted fracture as has been discussed earlier by the treating doctor.


This has been brought up in this thread in reference to experiments by Dr. Fackler:


Fackler once remarked in one of his papers that, with a carefully placed thigh shot, he was able to predictably fracture swine femur just by the temporary cavity produced by M193. He also remarked that, although the potential existed for the temporary cavity to fracture large bones, in actual experience it was rare to happen.


There are a few easily found papers on this- one I dug up recently-
When the Bullet Hits the Bone: Patterns in Gunshot Trauma to the Infracranial Skeleton (http://ecommons.txstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1003&amp;context=anthroptad), by Katharine A Chapman from the Texas State University-San Marcos Dept of Anthropology. While I don't consider it the hallmark of ballistic testing it does show several examples of high velocity bullet impacts and their temporary cavities causing bone fractures.

Keep in mind that close-range high velocity early upset impacts deliver a decent amount of energy to a specific point and the outward radiating pressure of the temporary cavity "splash" in close proximity to bone can reliably exert enough pressure to cause a break in healthy bone.

5pins
07-08-09, 12:01
Link doesn't work for me...what about you guys?

Try this one.

http://ecommons.txstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1003&context=anthroptad

prairiefire
07-09-09, 12:35
> Dr. Prairiefire,
thank you for your answer! Coming back to my question, I was not referring to skin, but to the thigh muscle and large intestine, as both are very elastic and strong tissues. Do you know someone who could answer my question or literature regarding the stretch threshold of the above mentioned organs? I full well understand that there is no answer as each individual's morphology is different, but there are always estimates and experiments and investigations, etc... and my name is David, I should say sir to you, Dr! ;)

PS have you seen the Cebu inmates dancing 'Thriller'? LMAO.

I'm sorry David sir ;) , but do not have the exact numbers to compare thigh muscle and large intestine. I will have to do some more research on that. ;)

Now that you have mentioned it, that would be some nice numbers to know!

As for that prison-inmate Thriller video, ever since Jackson died, they have been redoing it all day long...:D

DacoRoman
07-09-09, 19:33
As previously mentioned earlier, a direct or even glancing hit by a projectile going at 3000+ fps will show a distinct, characteristic fracture pattern, one of severe comminution, and a worse soft tissue wound profile, as a lot of those bone fragments now become secondary missiles, adding to the effects of the bullet fragments on soft tissue. As the fragments are big and only very slightly comminuted, IMHO the bullet did not hit the femur at all. Would blame the TC for that.

A bone morphologic density test was performed on the victim 4 days after the injury, and the results showed NORMAL with the numbers on the high side, meaning the bone density was a bit on the dense side. IOW, very good, strong bone. Considering that the victim is male, 47 years old, of short, stocky build, and was previously very healthy, this is actually as expected.





This has been brought up in this thread in reference to experiments by Dr. Fackler:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Dodson View Post
Fackler once remarked in one of his papers that, with a carefully placed thigh shot, he was able to predictably fracture swine femur just by the temporary cavity produced by M193. He also remarked that, although the potential existed for the temporary cavity to fracture large bones, in actual experience it was rare to happen.
There are a few easily found papers on this- one I dug up recently-
When the Bullet Hits the Bone: Patterns in Gunshot Trauma to the Infracranial Skeleton, by Katharine A Chapman from the Texas State University-San Marcos Dept of Anthropology. While I don't consider it the hallmark of ballistic testing it does show several examples of high velocity bullet impacts and their temporary cavities causing bone fractures.

Keep in mind that close-range high velocity early upset impacts deliver a decent amount of energy to a specific point and the outward radiating pressure of the temporary cavity "splash" in close proximity to bone can reliably exert enough pressure to cause a break in healthy bone.

thank you for the responses Gentlemen, very interesting indeed

KCabbage
02-03-10, 17:05
I was under the STRONG impression this was a US border patrol issue. Suspect was shot while trying to throw a big rock at the driver of a border patrol vehicle. I recall seeing the video and after pictures. I will look into this further.

Luke_Y
02-06-10, 13:05
I was under the STRONG impression this was a US border patrol issue. Suspect was shot while trying to throw a big rock at the driver of a border patrol vehicle. I recall seeing the video and after pictures. I will look into this further.

Did you even read the thread or look closely at the photos? :confused:

lanceriley
02-06-10, 20:09
happened in the Philippines

goodoleboy
02-06-10, 21:43
this reminds me of a guy that shot himself in the leg holstering his M9, it was like this one in reverse. The bullet entered his thigh on the lateral side, shattered his femur, severed his femoral artery and exited the medial side around the knee. Unfortunately, he died from his wounds.

lanceriley
02-06-10, 22:36
this reminds me of a guy that shot himself in the leg holstering his M9, it was like this one in reverse. The bullet entered his thigh on the lateral side, shattered his femur, severed his femoral artery and exited the medial side around the knee. Unfortunately, he died from his wounds.

a few years back... a revolver shooter changed to a pistol shooter. tucked the 45 cal 1911 in his pants. mexican style. adjusted until it blew off.... hit his scrotum. upper leg and exited lower leg.

aside from the pain... embarassment.

TiroFijo
02-07-10, 10:34
this reminds me of a guy that shot himself in the leg holstering his M9, it was like this one in reverse. The bullet entered his thigh on the lateral side, shattered his femur, severed his femoral artery and exited the medial side around the knee. Unfortunately, he died from his wounds.

A friend did the same thing, 9 mm bullet entered his right thigh on the external lateral side, about 5" above the knee, hit the femur but did not shatter it, and run parallel to the knee and tibia bones, not inflicting much damage to bone structures, muscle, and not hitting any major arteries. The bullet was reloaded cast lead, about 135 PF, and fragmented.

He fell down mostly because of the scare, there was very little bleeding, we applied a bandage and took him to the nearest hospital about 45 min away, and he recovered fully in a few weeks.

TiroFijo
02-07-10, 10:38
a few years back... a revolver shooter changed to a pistol shooter. tucked the 45 cal 1911 in his pants. mexican style. adjusted until it blew off.... hit his scrotum. upper leg and exited lower leg.

aside from the pain... embarassment.

The same thing happened to another friend, but only the scrotum was involved, he even saved all the "jewels" almost without a scratch.

He drove himself to the hospital, but it was quite an embarassment... :D

decodeddiesel
02-07-10, 11:41
I was under the STRONG impression this was a US border patrol issue. Suspect was shot while trying to throw a big rock at the driver of a border patrol vehicle. I recall seeing the video and after pictures. I will look into this further.

WTF? :confused: Page 1 of the thread, read it.

cebupistol
09-22-10, 10:46
Doc Prairiefire asked me to post these photos.

Details will be posted in the next posts.

Updated with Imageshack pics.


http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5549/3baran23mbaclig1.jpg

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/cebupistol/m193/3Baran23MBaclig2.jpg

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/8436/3baran23mbaclig3.jpg

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/cebupistol/m193/3Baran23MBaclig4.jpg

prairiefire
09-22-10, 11:00
A stark example of an M193 bullet fragmenting immediately after a glancing hit to the tibia. 21 year-old male, an innocent bystander hit by a stray bullet in an encounter between police and alleged communist rebels. Picture shows the only wound present, which is both the ENTRANCE / EXIT wound, with bone bits visible.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/cebupistol/m193/3Baran23MBaclig1.jpg


Xray shows the bullet fragments at the upper right hand corner. This M193 bullet fragmented almost completely, IMHO. Pattern of shattered bone, while severe, indicates not a direct hit, but a glancing hit only.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/cebupistol/m193/3Baran23MBaclig2.jpg


Wound after 3 weeks of repeated debridements and reconstructive surgery. Deep cavity represents muscle mass lost in initial trauma as well as resulting muscle necrosis secondary to infection.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/cebupistol/m193/3Baran23MBaclig3.jpg

Xrays three weeks later.
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/cebupistol/m193/3Baran23MBaclig4.jpg

When M193 fragments, the wound effects never cease to impress!

Odd Job
09-22-10, 12:27
Would be interesting to see pre-op X-rays. With post-ops there is always the possibility of changed bony alignment and missing fragments.

Jake'sDad
09-22-10, 21:22
I regularly shoot deer with 165gr 30 cal PSPBT bullets at 2,800fps. Rib bones adjacent to impact, remain intact. Ribs and leg bones stuck by the bullet shatter and send bone fragment and bullet fragments as secondary projectiles. I get 30cal entrance wounds and 1.5" exit wounds at contact distances less than 100 yards.

This is an Elk I shot at 80 yards with a Barnes 160 grain TSX at an honest 3000 fps.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a216/elmer1/tn_IMG_0838.jpg

Although that 7 Mag bullet has no problem breaking the bones it hits, in all the game I've shot with it, I've never seen any broken just by the shock wave passing through.

Maybe the 5.56 is capable of more magical performance?

Hmac
09-22-10, 21:37
Nasty.

cebupistol
09-22-10, 23:53
It seems photobucket found the picture inapproriate. Any suggestion on other photo sharing sites that i could upload the pics?

Iraqgunz
09-23-10, 01:14
imageshack. Also you can upload a photo directly from your computer. That's how I do mine.


It seems photobucket found the picture inapproriate. Any suggestion on other photo sharing sites that i could upload the pics?

5pins
09-23-10, 07:47
If imageshack won’t do it let me know I may be able to host them for you.

cebuboy
09-29-10, 11:58
Doc Prairiefires missing pictures...

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/3Baran23MMercader1.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/3Baran23MMercader3.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/dsc00367.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/dsc00368.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk153/cebuboy/gunshot/dsc00370.jpg

lanceriley
09-29-10, 19:10
that's probably almost 2 lbs of meet gone!

prairiefire
09-30-10, 11:03
The first photo shows the injury as it looked when the victim arrived at the E.R.. The next two after 3weeks of repeated debridement. The last two photos show the wound as it was six weeks after the injury.

Debridement was done, but not too aggressively so, in order that not too much remaining viable tissue goes out with the nonviable ones. Initial operations removed the obviously dead tissue only. Any other tissue that dies are removed once they have demarcated clearly, especially if no infection occurs.

He can use this leg again, but only after we find a way to regenerate his lost bone ( thru the Ilizarov method hopefully ). Nevertheless, he is going to limp for the rest of his life.

Headstamp on spent cartridge case was BMP 03, the local government arsenal. Was not able to test the remaining ammo in the mag this time, but other BMP 03 tested shows full power specs, as in 3228 fps from a 20-inch barrel for an average of 5.

Still never fails to impress when it does fragment!

win&legend
10-24-15, 08:05
These are all close range wounds. One of the reasons M193 was abandoned by the military is poor performance at longer ranges. M193 is an excellent close quarters cartridge, at least if your not looking for higher priced SCHP or other higher end expanding ammunition. The issue is it's use in the majority of military applications. It has poor barrier penetration (nato plates, auto glass etc.) compared to M855 (which has yaw consistency issues just like M193) and has very poor performance at distance once the velocity drops for a military application. Below 2500 FPS and it will not fragment or yaw despite the angle of attach and punch clean through. The whole concept behind M855A1 is a mixture of the Russian 5.45 concept combined with fragmentation. Longer projectiles which are back heavy are inherently unstable and yaw early even with very shallow angles of attack. However, at close ranges M855A1 still retains it's fragmentation effect, which is more effective than just tumbling at leaving a large wound cavity (however the tumbling effect presents a surface area of twice that of a .308, so it's two cavity's are substantial). M855A1 also has similar penetration to the Russian standard service cartridge 7N10, which is rated for 5mm armor at 150m and 16mm of mild steel at 300m. I wouldn't want to get hit by any of them, failure to fragment or not, but despite all this one thing is clear, shot placement trumps projectile performance, even an M855 or M193 ice picking straight to the heart and into the spine will instantly stop any threat. There's no replacement for shot placement and that coincides with a law enforcement survey that polled our nations peace officers on ammunition performance. Their two top criteria for stopping a determined assailant was 1. shot placement and 2. penetration depth. Consistency is more important than impressive some times but sorely lacking there times and hence why the US Army developed M855A1, the Marines use MK318 and the Russians use 7N10. All of those designs provide consistent results, even if they do not produce occasionally spectacular and frightening results.

ggammell
10-24-15, 12:42
These are all close range wounds. One of the reasons M193 was abandoned by the military is poor performance at longer ranges. M193 is an excellent close quarters cartridge, at least if your not looking for higher priced SCHP or other higher end expanding ammunition. The issue is it's use in the majority of military applications. It has poor barrier penetration (nato plates, auto glass etc.) compared to M855 (which has yaw consistency issues just like M193) and has very poor performance at distance once the velocity drops for a military application. Below 2500 FPS and it will not fragment or yaw despite the angle of attach and punch clean through. The whole concept behind M855A1 is a mixture of the Russian 5.45 concept combined with fragmentation. Longer projectiles which are back heavy are inherently unstable and yaw early even with very shallow angles of attack. However, at close ranges M855A1 still retains it's fragmentation effect, which is more effective than just tumbling at leaving a large wound cavity (however the tumbling effect presents a surface area of twice that of a .308, so it's two cavity's are substantial). M855A1 also has similar penetration to the Russian standard service cartridge 7N10, which is rated for 5mm armor at 150m and 16mm of mild steel at 300m. I wouldn't want to get hit by any of them, failure to fragment or not, but despite all this one thing is clear, shot placement trumps projectile performance, even an M855 or M193 ice picking straight to the heart and into the spine will instantly stop any threat. There's no replacement for shot placement and that coincides with a law enforcement survey that polled our nations peace officers on ammunition performance. Their two top criteria for stopping a determined assailant was 1. shot placement and 2. penetration depth. Consistency is more important than impressive some times but sorely lacking there times and hence why the US Army developed M855A1, the Marines use MK318 and the Russians use 7N10. All of those designs provide consistent results, even if they do not produce occasionally spectacular and frightening results.

Literally 5 years late...

Airhasz
10-24-15, 15:15
Literally 5 years late...

Still plenty of good info since said ammo is still being sold.

strambo
10-24-15, 16:58
Fascinating thread, I'm glad it Zombie'd back since I missed it the 1st time!

win&legend
10-24-15, 19:36
Better late than never lol. But seriously, one of the studies even referenced called out the pronounced early yaw of 5.45 and the fact that it produced a significant permanent wound cavity. Fragmentation is not a reliable method of wounding at longer ranges as the velocity loss due to fluid resistance (in this case, air) ensures inadequate velocity upon impact to beak apart the projectile, thus another method was needed for military general purpose penetrator cartridges. The Russian's figured out the only method which isn't highly velocity dependent back in the 1970's. The US finally caught on with M855A1, if it doesn't fragment, it will still yaw due to it's long body and concentration of weight to the rear, hence it's much more effective at longer ranges where M855 and M193 have a significant loss of wounding potential (MK318 is highly effective at range on soft tissue being a heavy HP). Either that or use more traditional methods like hollow points in the aforementioned MK318, however they are still somewhat velocity dependent (but to a much lesser degree). Unfortunately for the military, hollow points don't fit the bill for a general purpose penetrator (all around cartridge) cartridge requirements however, but MK318 does do pretty well against common barriers like automotive glass, multiple layers of drywall, cinder blocks etc...it's just expensive being of match grade quality.

Page 33 of ADA183285 is what I'm referencing: "The bullet typically yaws at a shallower penetration depth than other military bullets. This results in a significant wound even in uncomplicated extremity hits."

Molon
10-24-15, 20:51
. . . but MK318 does do pretty well against common barriers like automotive glass, multiple layers of drywall, cinder blocks etc...it's just expensive being of match grade quality.




MK318 is hardly "match grade quality."



Accuracy Evaluation of MK318 Mod 0

An accuracy (technically, precision) evaluation of the MK318 Mod 0 ammunition was performed following my usual protocol. This accuracy evaluation used statistically significant shot-group sizes and every single shot in a fired group was included in the measurements. There was absolutely no use of any Group Reduction Techniques (e.g. fliers, target movement, Butterfly Shots).

The shooting set-up will be described in detail below. As many of the significant variables as was practicable were controlled for. Also, a "control group" was fired from each barrel used in the evaluation using match-grade, hand-loaded ammunition; in order to demonstrate the capability of the barrel. Pictures of shot-groups are posted for documentation.

All shooting was conducted from a concrete bench-rest from a distance of 100 yards (confirmed with a laser rangefinder.) The barrels used in the evaluation were free-floated. The free-float handguards of the rifles rested in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest, while the stock of the rifles rested in a Protektor bunny-ear rear bag. Sighting was accomplished via a Leupold VARI-X III set at 25X magnification and adjusted to be parallax-free at 100 yards. A mirage shade was attached to the objective-bell of the scope. Wind conditions on the shooting range were continuously monitored using a Wind Probe. The set-up was very similar to that pictured below.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/xo4duzdgtp.jpg


The Wind Probe.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/lkg47ptc04.jpg


In order to establish a working baseline for the intrinsic accuracy of the 62 grain SOST projectile itself, when fired from a semi-automatic AR-15, I worked-up a SAAMI pressure hand-load with pulled MK318 bullets and fired a 10-shot group of that load from a Krieger barreled AR-15 from a distance of 100 yards. The Krieger barrel has a 1:7.7” twist rate.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/goznv7cxck.jpg


Prior to firing the 62 grain SOST hand-load, I fired a 10-shot control group consisting of hand-loaded 62 grain Berger hollow points. The extreme spread for the control group measured 0.66”.


http://www.box.net/shared/static/3iyz43ukhj.jpg



The extreme spread of the 10-shot group of the 62 grain SOST hand-load measured 1.9”.


http://www.box.net/shared/static/sxyxlqq0el.jpg


http://www.box.net/shared/static/yhk5q7pgh9.jpg





Since MK318 Mod 0 is intended for use as a combat round, I used AR-15s with chrome-lined, NATO chambered barrels for this accuracy evaluation, as it most likely that these are the types of barrels that this ammunition will most commonly be fired from. It is possible to obtain better accuracy from mil-spec/NATO pressure loads by firing them from an AR-15 that has a stainless steel match-grade barrel with a hybrid chamber such as the Noveske NMmod0 chamber or the Wylde chamber for examples; but you're not going to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

As previously mentioned, it is reported that MK318 was “optimized” for a 14 inch barrel, so it seemed only fitting to evaluate MK318 from a similar length barrel. The first test vehicle used in this accuracy evaluation was a 14.5” Colt M4A1 barrel. The barrel was free-floated with a Daniel Defense Omega rail. (I was not able to use the mirage-shade with this barrel, due to the original standard front sight base on it.) A previous accuracy evaluation of this M4A1 barrel demonstrated that this barrel is capable of excellent accuracy for a chrome-lined, NATO chambered barrel. That evaluation can be viewed here:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=59364




http://www.box.net/shared/static/dq2orr4r7z.jpg



A control group fired from the M4A1 barrel using hand-loaded 62 grain Berger hollow-point projectiles had an extreme spread of 1.13”.


http://www.box.net/shared/static/v04nllk6h0.jpg


Three 10-shot groups of the MK318 were fired from the Colt M4A1 barrel from the previously described bench-rest set-up. The extreme spreads of those groups measured:

2.91”
3.22”
2.70”

for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 2.94”. The three 10-shot groups were over-layed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius of this composite group was 1.02”.


The smallest 10-shot group of MK318 fired from the Colt M4A1 barrel is shown below.


http://www.box.net/shared/static/oxkz225ct5.jpg



The next test vehicle was a 16” Colt HBAR with a 1:9” twist. This is the same barrel found on the Colt 6721 Tactical Carbine. This barrel is one of the most accurate “out of the box” chrome-lined, NATO chambered barrels that I’ve evaluated. The barrel was free-floated with a LaRue Tactical handguard.


http://www.box.net/shared/static/9jkbf66dd6.jpg



A 10-shot group from this barrel fired using hand-loaded Sierra 52 grain MatchKings had an extreme spread of 0.98”.


http://www.box.net/shared/static/uekfqe60h1.jpg


Three 10-shot groups of the MK318 fired from the Colt 6721 barrel produced the following extreme spreads:

2.98”
2.85”
2.89”

for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 2.91”. These three groups were also over-layed on each other to produce a 30-shot composite group with a mean radius of 0.82”.


The smallest 10-shot group of MK318 fired from the Colt 6721 barrel . . .


http://www.box.net/shared/static/euyka74pu0.jpg



The third barrel used to evaluate the accuracy of MK318 was a 20” Colt HBAR with a 1:7” twist, chrome-lining and a NATO chamber. The barrel is free-floated with a PRI handguard.


http://www.box.net/shared/static/knb2dg3c2f.jpg


A 10-shot group from this barrel fired using hand-loaded 55 grain Sierra BlitzKings had an extreme spread of 1.18”.


http://www.box.net/shared/static/ouyx1ql34o.jpg


Three 10-shot groups of the MK318 fired from the 20” HBAR had extreme spreads of:

2.70”
2.49”
3.24”

for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 2.81”. As before, the three 10-shot groups were over-layed on each other to form a 30-shot composite group that produced a mean radius of 0.91”.


The smallest 10-shot group of MK318 fired from the 20” HBAR . . .


http://www.box.net/shared/static/egirpleq8q.jpg


A summary of the results from this evaluation are shown below.


http://www.box.net/shared/static/5qc36vzi87.jpg




....




Lastly, for the Internet Commandos in our viewing audience, here’s a pic of a sub-MOA group of the MK318 fired from the 16” Colt HBAR from 100 yards; a cherry-picked 3-shot group that is.http://www.box.net/shared/static/mlmvft9uks.gif


http://www.box.net/shared/static/itivdlev4d.jpg


.....

MegademiC
10-24-15, 22:59
Molon, the depth, detail, and completeness of your posts is much appreciated. As a young engineer, I try to apply these aspects to my reports, and it's gaining me respect quickly. I just want you to know your impact extends beyond the forum.

Thank you

Btw, what I find most incredible is how it seems you have HOURSSSS of research data on hand at a moments notice.

win&legend
10-24-15, 23:27
According to an international ballistics report in which MK318 was referenced as a supposedly sub MOA cartridge (which was my source on this issue), but it was NATO source, so perhaps they mixed up MK318 with another military cartridge (MK 262?). The data speaks for itself, as an Engineer myself (electrical), I can't argue with the literal results. It would seem the real intent of MK318 is primarily better common barrier penetration and wounding at longer ranges over that of M855, given it's much higher mass (conservation of energy) and traditional expansive wounding mechanism, being a hollow point.

Molon
10-25-15, 09:00
Molon, the depth, detail, and completeness of your posts is much appreciated. As a young engineer, I try to apply these aspects to my reports, and it's gaining me respect quickly. I just want you to know your impact extends beyond the forum.

Thank you

Btw, what I find most incredible is how it seems you have HOURSSSS of research data on hand at a moments notice.



Da nada. https://app.box.com/shared/static/ig2mmpy7g3.gif


...

Molon
10-25-15, 09:11
According to an international ballistics report in which MK318 was referenced as a supposedly sub MOA cartridge . . .




Dude, just stop already. Try getting some actual experience on a subject matter before posting any more false information in our technical forums.


....

win&legend
10-25-15, 10:44
Molon, I'm not arguing with your results on MK318. You cherry picked a part of my reply without reading the context...the reason I thought MK318 was supposed to be a match cartridge was because of that international small arms report I referenced previously in which there were addressing the lethality and accuracy issues of M855. That's all that was meant, no need to be a smarty pants, I'm sure you've made mistakes as well ;-). Regardless, MK318 was intended to fill a role M855 and M193 could not, and that was at longer ranges, match grade or not.