July 2009 SWAT Magazine

[rob_s]

I have an article in this upcoming SWAT. If you subscribe you should already have it in fact. The article is about our carbine matches and is called "Build a Match from Scratch" and begins on Page 74.

Let me know what you think.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/Articles/0907%20SWAT/Cover.jpg

[Iraqgunz]

I'll have to get my wife to go to Barnes and Noble to get my monthly dose of gun porn.

[dirksterg30]

Just got it in the mail last week. I look forward to reading your article, Rob.

[rubberneck]

I look forward to reading it but after the last couple issues it is getting harder and harder to stomach buying it. I don't know what has happened to them lately but it used to be the best gun related mag. Now they have sunk to reviewing concealable swords and charter arms revolvers.

[MR.J]

I have an article in this upcoming SWAT. If you subscribe you should already have it in fact. The article is about our carbine matches and is called "Build a Match from Scratch" and begins on Page 74.

Let me know what you think.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/Articles/0907%20SWAT/Cover.jpg



Meh.....

[MR.J]

I look forward to reading it but after the last couple issues it is getting harder and harder to stomach buying it. I don't know what has happened to them lately but it used to be the best gun related mag. Now they have sunk to reviewing concealable swords and charter arms revolvers.



I wont renew my sub after it runs out.

[Boomer10]

I'm looking forward to reading the article. My local club puts on a monthly carbine match and the director has been looking for others to step up and run a few here and there so he can concentrate on competing in a match instead of running them. Hopefully this will help me come up with a few ideas to get a match up & running.

[Spooky130]

Sorely disappointed there was no tactical yellow visor to be seen...

[rob_s]

yeah. the only pic of me was from a match when I thought the visor was lost for all time!

[JSGlock34]

I very much liked the idea of the mandatory orientation and qualification; get shooters familiar with the match commands and rules (as well as give the RSOs a chance to observe the shooters). My group encourages new shooters to observe a match before participating, but the orientation is an excellent idea.

[SWATcop556]

Good article Rob. A "diamond in the rough" as of late with SWAT.

[VooDoo6Actual]

I guess some have not gotten the memo.

Until SQUAT Mag gets real factual articles I'll just read it occasionally when some decent articles are written at the stands.

They FAIL miserably to meet my standards for being honest and straight up.

Not into the some of the phonies and their Bravco Sierra claims. Free gear Whorriors imo.

I can get BS'ed anywhere for free w/o the insult of spending my money.

Too many frauds spoil the good ones there.

nuff said.

And yes, I have seen the DOCS etc...

Too bad the TRUTH is so difficult for some people these days..

To each their own...

[rob_s]

I very much liked the idea of the mandatory orientation and qualification; get shooters familiar with the match commands and rules (as well as give the RSOs a chance to observe the shooters). My group encourages new shooters to observe a match before participating, but the orientation is an excellent idea.

Interesting thing has come out of instituting the Q&O:
shooters that don't gripe, come out and run through the process, and go through their first match typically understand why we do the Q&O and thank us for it. shooters that bitch and moan, think they are above it, etc. typically are so unsafe that they don't even make it through the whole Q&O!

The single biggest reason we do the Q&O is to expose people to the 4 rules of safe gun handling. The second biggest reason is to get eyes on them when performing a transition to pistol to see if they can do so safely. The Q begins with a simple "load and make ready", progresses through emergency and tac-loads and getting in and out of basic positions, finishing up with the transition. We typically know if someone is going to be a problem before we ever get to the transition.

[TUNNEL RAT 33]

nice work ! i look forward to your future articles .

[CarlosDJackal]

So how are you guys mitigating the legal liability for something like this? Does your club have enough insurance to handle any kind of litigation in case of injury?

Kudos for requiring mandatory Q&O for all shooters. I started a "Tactical Shooters Group" at my club last year around a core group of experienced shooters. But the huge liability that comes with running any shooting event had convinced me to limit the event to club members only.

Our events aren't as much as competition but was meant to allow like-minded individuals to run through the drills we learned from attending Tactical Courses in order to maintain our skills and build cameradere. But after the announcement of the group was made (to club members) people started asking us questions that eventually led to our decision to disband the group and just hold informal shoots (like we did in celebration of Memorial Day).

I had people ask me if they could shoot their Class 3 firearms, rifle-caliber pistols (ie: AR pistol, AK pistol, etc), and one lady asked me if she could participate using a .22 rifle because she was scared of ARs!! :rolleyes:

After that, I started modifying our SOP to include Q&O to identify the skill level of the shooters and identify the Skill Level allowed into each event. I realized that by formalizing the group, I would have to allow any club member who met the skill-level criteria and had the minimum equipment to participate. I decided that it would take a lot of time and effort to be able to perform this evaluation which none of us had. So after one session we voted to disband (at least formally).

You guys keep up the good work!! :)

[azidpa]

I read the article this morning, enjoyed it. SWAT should publish more like it.

Especially liked the scoring (nuetralized or not), might have to borrow that for a local match, with your permission of course.

until that day
Mark

[rob_s]

I read the article this morning, enjoyed it. SWAT should publish more like it.

Especially liked the scoring (nuetralized or not), might have to borrow that for a local match, with your permission of course.

until that day
Mark

Thank you for returning this thread to the subject at hand. Glad you liked the article. Feel free to use whatever you can.

[yrac]

I read the article this morning, enjoyed it. SWAT should publish more like it.

Especially liked the scoring (nuetralized or not), might have to borrow that for a local match, with your permission of course.

until that day
Mark

Azidpa beat me to it...

Gents - this thread is related to the article Rob_s wrote for Swat Magazine - not a general discussion of the other material presented in Swat, and not a discussion of opinions on any given trainer - let's return to the original topic and stay focused. Thanks.

[RogerinTPA]

This pat rogers issue needs a new thread guys....

[ST911]

This pat rogers issue needs a new thread guys....

Nah. There already was one and it went nowhere. Too many participants with too much opinion and too little info. It's best left locked or dead where it is.

[rob_s]

So how are you guys mitigating the legal liability for something like this? Does your club have enough insurance to handle any kind of litigation in case of injury?


this is one of the reasons we operate under the umbrella of the parent club. Among other things, the facility we use REQUIRES insurance from the clubs that shoot there.

In all honesty, however, there is no such thing as enough insurance to handle any kind of litigation. It just doesn't exist. You either accept this as a risk or you stay home and wish that someone else would start a match.

Something that's not in the article is that we also do a monthly drills night. I run the carbine side, and a couple of other guys run the handgun side. We typically get about 20 shooters for each side. This gives those that aren't into competing an opportunity to get some practice in, and it gives us an environment to teach new shooters prior to them having to go through the Q&O.

Whenever someone emails me about getting on the Q&O notification list, I always direct them to the drills. Typically those that come out to the drills and get some shooting in while they can are the ones that sail through the Q with no trouble, while those that think the drills are beneath them tend to have problems at the Q.

we also don't score the Q for a lot of reasons, but the biggest of which is that it allows us to be completely subjective with our Pass/Fail decisions. What we're looking for is safe gun handling, and there's no way to score that. You're either safe or your not, and it has nothing to do with shooting ability (we've had some very good shooters that were downright dangerous that didn't pass the Q).

[UVvis]

Rob,

I liked the article. Especially having to invent an applicable scoring system.

How many shooters do you typically have come out for these matches, and how long do they take to run?

[RogerinTPA]

Nah. There already was one and it went nowhere. Too many participants with too much opinion and too little info. It's best left locked or dead where it is.

Agreed. What I meant was "that" discussion should be stopped and this thread should continue unmolested, without flying off on a tangent.

[rob_s]

We will generally see between 20 and 40 shooters at the matches. I think our typical is somewhere around 10 shooters per squad, 3 squads and 3 stages. The parent club typically sees 60 shooters over 4 squads at the Saturday IDPA matches.

Our official start time for the carbine matches is 18:30, which we don't often meet, and our official "must be 100% off the range" time is 22:00 so we call the last shooter at 21:45.

It really is amazing how much we get through in such a short time, which is a testament to the success of the scoring system and course of fire design, but also our shooters helping with the reset and our safety officers who play a HUGE role.

we have a separate class of safety officers within the club for Rifle Safety Officers, or RSOs. They are all hand picked by me, invitation only, and I owe these guys and gals a HUGE debt of gratitude. We try to have an RSO-appreciation match at least once a year, which is free for the RSOs, where we do some slightly edgier stuff. The picture on the first page of the article of the two shooters together is from one of those matches where we had two man teams moving around one another. This is something we would never do with the general membership. Virtually all of our RSOs are also either IDPA SOs or IPC ROs, or both or have shown themselves to be extremely competent and safety minded.

[DrMark]

Good article, Rob. I read it last night on a 3-hr flight home from Texas.

I appreciate articles that are concise "here's what worked for us" info on relevant subjects. This fit the bill.

[msstate56]

I enjoyed the article. It gives me several ideas to try to start an informal match with my coworkers. I truly appreciate people like Rob who are a wealth of knowledge, and are more than happly to share. I looked at your club's website, and it had lots of helpful information. The website expands on Rob's article if you want particulars on the Q&O.

[Sidewinder6]

Our official start time for the carbine matches is 18:30, which we don't often meet, and our official "must be 100% off the range" time is 20:00 so we call the last shooter at 19:45.

Clock Check.

[rob_s]

Clock Check.

Doh!

gotta fix that!

[HES]

Been on the road and just saw this. Congrats Rob. Thinking of giving up your day job yet? I'll pick it up in the next few days.

[Surf]

I wouldn't mind reading the article. Might have to mull it over while its on the stands, cause I sure ain't buying the magazine. ;)