View Full Version : The Dude's new long range rifle (preview)
Littlelebowski
05-27-09, 19:44
*After having personally witnessed ( I shot it too) a bone stock DPMS LR308 (.308 AR 24" barrel) shoot maybe a hair over 1MOA with surplus ammo (we were shooting clay pigeons at 100 yards and we hit the pieces until we couldn't see them in the 10x scope we were using), I bought me up one of dem bad boys.
*I had my talented gunsmith friend Rob cut the barrel to just under 21" so that it's lighter, shorter, has a stiffer barrel, and *still has the legs to go to 1000 yards. *He also installed a CMMG 2 stage trigger, an Armalite scope mount, and a Magpul PRS stock. *A Pride Fowler 3-9x scope finished her off. *He's checking the gun over to see if the gas port needs opened up and I should have it by next week. *So cue the Tom Petty "The Waiting is the Hardest Part" and tell me what you think.
*FYI, Rob built an AR15 that shots sub 3" groups at 600 yards. *The guy does exacting work to your specification and his work is safe. *
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/LR308-2.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/LR308-1.jpg
SeriousStudent
05-27-09, 20:21
LLB - pretty sweet!
And that is all the work you are doing to it? Pretty interesting.
Is there a particular load you have in mind for it? Or are you just going to shoot factory loads?
Congrats on the new stick!
Thomas M-4
05-27-09, 20:26
Trying to fight the urge for a .308 AR . I am trying to talk myself into a MK12 MOD1 clone it makes it hard to do when I see one nicely done as yours. Looks good with the barrel cut down to 21 inches and that PRS stock looks good to.
Nice Rifle..
MarshallDodge
05-27-09, 21:35
Nice.
The trigger should be the first to go on those things. I put an RRA two-stage in mine. Best upgrade I ever made.
One word of caution on the two-stage triggers. I don't know if the CMMG has this issue but the RRA setup can cause light primers strikes in the LR-308. This is not a big deal for me since I use Federal primers but may be an issue for those that are using military surplus, etc.
Beautiful rifle, 21" looks just about right. I have an LR308 that I'm setting up just about like that. Going to do the PRS stock, trigger should go out in a day or two to Springfield for his 3lb trigger job, then I just need glass and rings. I was thinking 20-22" should be about right, stiffen the barrel up a little, and move the center of gravity back a little. I don't want to go down to 18" as I want o have the velocity to shoot at 800-1000 if I should ever decide to shoot that far. The PRS probably helps balance it out a little? I was also considering having the barrel fluted for some additional minor weight savings and stiffening. Probably going to leave the free float tube alone, its a target rifle after all. Only thing I was considering was adding a small piece of rail at 6 o'clock to add a bipod. I know I can mount it on the stud, but I like the look of the rail mount and I think its a little more solid. My only problem is that all the add on rail I've found is for 2" handguards and the factory handguards are 2.25". I want the underside of the rail to closely follow the contour of the handguard so it bolts down real solid and doesn't make scuff marks at the edges. Anybody have thoughts on where to get rail machined with a 2.25" diameter radius on the mounting side? Anyway, great looking rifle, give us a range report ASAP-Norcal911
HiggsBoson
05-28-09, 08:19
Nice shooter, Dude! Mind if I ask how much $$ you have in it? I've been eying a build almost exactly like this for a while. Soooo ... when I build it, don't call me a copycat. :D
I hope you plan to follow up here with your AAR and pix!?
/subscribes thread
*After having personally witnessed ( I shot it too) a bone stock DPMS LR308 (.308 AR 24" barrel) shoot maybe a hair over 1MOA with surplus ammo (we were shooting clay pigeons at 100 yards and we hit the pieces until we couldn't see them in the 10x scope we were using), I bought me up one of dem bad boys.
*I had my talented gunsmith friend Rob cut the barrel to just under 21" so that it's lighter, shorter, has a stiffer barrel, and *still has the legs to go to 1000 yards. *He also installed a CMMG 2 stage trigger, an Armalite scope mount, and a Magpul PRS stock. *A Pride Fowler 3-9x scope finished her off. *He's checking the gun over to see if the gas port needs opened up and I should have it by next week. *So cue the Tom Petty "The Waiting is the Hardest Part" and tell me what you think.
*FYI, Rob built an AR15 that shots sub 3" groups at 600 yards. *The guy does exacting work to your specification and his work is safe. *
Littlelebowski
05-28-09, 08:30
Nice shooter, Dude! Mind if I ask how much $$ you have in it? I've been eying a build almost exactly like this for a while. Soooo ... when I build it, don't call me a copycat. :D
I hope you plan to follow up here with your AAR and pix!?
/subscribes thread
Will post results here. I've got about $1600 in it or so. Got it for $1100 a couple of months ago. Can't wait to stretch its legs.
Here's the contact info for the guy who did it.
Rob Bonacci
720-365-1038
ConceptGuns@yahoo.com
Located in Denver Colorado.
LL,
Why didn't you opt for some type of flash hider/ suppressor for it? BTW- Ammoman has some foreign mil contract match ammo on sale. Might be worth looking at.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/LR308-2.jpg
THE DUDE ABIDES
stanlyonjr
05-30-09, 21:41
LL,
Why didn't you opt for some type of flash hider/ suppressor for it? BTW- Ammoman has some foreign mil contract match ammo on sale. Might be worth looking at.
If your going to push anything past 600 yards, hand loads are a must. For my 600 yard loads I've been shooting JLK 80gr VLD just off the lands. Sub 3 inch in my service rifle. Only took about 500 rounds to find the sweet spot! That rifle should shoot better than 3 with a well setup hand load. Nice!!
Oh really? Why is that? Especially since I have seen snipers/DDM's make hits further than 600yds using factory match ammo. I guess they didn't get the memo.
If your going to push anything past 600 yards, hand loads are a must. For my 600 yard loads I've been shooting JLK 80gr VLD just off the lands. Sub 3 inch in my service rifle. Only took about 500 rounds to find the sweet spot! That rifle should shoot better than 3 with a well setup hand load. Nice!!
stanlyonjr
05-31-09, 08:14
Oh really? Why is that? Especially since I have seen snipers/DDM's make hits further than 600yds using factory match ammo. I guess they didn't get the memo.
Hey,
Thats what just works for me and is my experience. I'm sure if you want to start a pissing contest we can mention organizations using both and determine who's dick is bigger by the accuracy of our listings. The man got a new rifle. Your advice is just as valid as mine. I'm sure then he pulls up his big boy pants in the morning he will decide what information to use and which to disregard. This is a forum. Information is king.
Littlelebowski
05-31-09, 08:42
If your going to push anything past 600 yards, hand loads are a must. For my 600 yard loads I've been shooting JLK 80gr VLD just off the lands. Sub 3 inch in my service rifle. Only took about 500 rounds to find the sweet spot! That rifle should shoot better than 3 with a well setup hand load. Nice!!
Are you referring to a 5.56 weapon with your 80grain handloads? Because this is a .308
At my brother's shooting school, we had a bone stock Winchester 30.06 shooting factory loads run right out to 1K yards.
No need for dick measuring as I have a fairly small one. The fact is you stated that in order to push past 600 yards, handloads are a MUST. That is an absolute and it is completely untrue. In addition to all that. When I attended the SPR Course last October we were hitting targets in excess of 600 out to almost 900 yds. using 5.56 77gr. Match ammo from Black Hills. So explain that.
My ammo recommendation to LL was simply to let him know that there was some cheap match ammo out there for him to look at, nothing more.
Hey,
Thats what just works for me and is my experience. I'm sure if you want to start a pissing contest we can mention organizations using both and determine who's dick is bigger by the accuracy of our listings. The man got a new rifle. Your advice is just as valid as mine. I'm sure then he pulls up his big boy pants in the morning he will decide what information to use and which to disregard. This is a forum. Information is king.
LL,
Why no muzzle break/flash hider/ suppressor on the rifle? Was it not an option or did you determine that you really didn't need it?
Littlelebowski
05-31-09, 09:11
LL,
Why no muzzle break/flash hider/ suppressor on the rifle? Was it not an option or did you determine that you really didn't need it?
Shutup and stop calling attention to what I forgot about :D Actually, I just didn't think of it. I don't think I really need it though and if I get out to any matches, a brake would probably just piss the people off that are next to me. I might have it threaded. This beast is heavy enough that recoil is nothing to worry about anyway.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-31-09, 10:21
Shutup and stop calling attention to what I forgot about :D Actually, I just didn't think of it. I don't think I really need it though and if I get out to any matches, a brake would probably just piss the people off that are next to me. I might have it threaded. This beast is heavy enough that recoil is nothing to worry about anyway.
It sounds like the really only polite thing to do is add a can to it :D
Best way to get some elbow room at the range is to have a 7.62 AR with a muzzle break and a bunch of loaded mags out in plain sight.
To me a bolt-action with a flash hider, and an AR without a flash hider look funny.
Sounds like a real nice rifle, and less than going the KAC route. How would you compare DMPS 5.56 to 7.62 products?
Iraqgunz- Just tell women how long it is in millimeters, makes you sound foreign and huge.
stanlyonjr
05-31-09, 10:29
I can see comments are a waste of time on this thread. Everyone is taking them too personally. Nice rifle and good luck.
Gotcha. Was curious about that.
Shutup and stop calling attention to what I forgot about :D Actually, I just didn't think of it. I don't think I really need it though and if I get out to any matches, a brake would probably just piss the people off that are next to me. I might have it threaded. This beast is heavy enough that recoil is nothing to worry about anyway.
Littlelebowski
05-31-09, 10:47
I can see comments are a waste of time on this thread. Everyone is taking them too personally. Nice rifle and good luck.
No, they're not. We have plenty of room for an informed discussion on factory ammo versus hand loads past 600 though it does seem that you're referring to.223/5.56 and not .308 as I asked earlier.
When you say the factory ammo doesn't work for you at that distance, I assume you're referring to a self-set standard of accuracy or does it tumble/not hit the target at all?
stanlyonjr
05-31-09, 16:46
Factory ammo will work, its just that the accuracy is not what I'm looking for. That applies to 5.56 and 7.62 IMO. Every barrel is different even if its the same model, totally different bullet and powder. I have two match 5.56 service rifles. One like Berger 77gr with Varget powder and another like JLK 80gr VLD with Reloader 15. Same exact barrel. If I shoot the Berger in other rifle my groups open up a minute to a minute and a half. Makes no sense at all but thats how it works. Takes about two pounds of powder and 500 shots to figure out a good load for a barrel. More sometimes. Considering the barrel is good for 5000 rounds 7000 of what I would consider excellent accuracy if its well taken care of. Thats a good percentage of your barrel to develop a consistent load for your rifle. DMR's in rifle companies use factory ammo during battle, but the Marine corp and Army snipers I know load all there own ammo for combat.
Littlelebowski
05-31-09, 18:23
the Marine corp and Army snipers I know load all there own ammo for combat.
Whoever told you that is yanking your chain. Reloading components are not issued and choice of ammo is controlled by military regulation. Snipers do not handload before a battle or even a deployment.
What are your personal accuracy standards?
stanlyonjr
05-31-09, 18:38
I watched the SEAL's on our ship load shells but In either case I try for 2 in or better at 600 yards for service rifle matches.
Littlelebowski
05-31-09, 18:56
I can assure you that Marine Scout Snipers don't do so and that's out of complete and utter logic and common sense. What, are you going to adjust your zero when you get a battlefield resupply of M118? In the heat of battle? What if you need to make a long range shot with someone else's ammo/rifle mixed with your own?
When I read that I almost hoisted the Bravo Sierra flag but I had a feeling that it would just cause more of the above "penis measuring".
I can assure you that Marine Scout Snipers don't do so and that's out of complete and utter logic and common sense. What, are you going to adjust your zero when you get a battlefield resupply of M118? In the heat of battle? What if you need to make a long range shot with someone else's ammo/rifle mixed with your own?
stanlyonjr
06-01-09, 07:17
Just how many shots do you think Marine Corp scout snipers take during a mission and who's to say if they plan and need a re-supply there not re-supplied with there spec ammo. Just for the sake of argument of course. If I was a scout sniper I would have shot data for both hand loads and M118 ammo.
Littlelebowski
06-01-09, 07:24
It depends on the battle. My brother who's a former Scout Sniper/Scout Sniper Instructor and has two combat deployments as a Scout Sniper including Fallujah laughed out loud at the very notion that Scout Snipers handload. He wanted to know when they're supposed to work up load data and who's going to buy all of the loading equipment when they have a hard enough time getting the basic gear?
stanlyonjr
06-01-09, 07:26
No need for dick measuring as I have a fairly small one. The fact is you stated that in order to push past 600 yards, handloads are a MUST. That is an absolute and it is completely untrue. In addition to all that. When I attended the SPR Course last October we were hitting targets in excess of 600 out to almost 900 yds. using 5.56 77gr. Match ammo from Black Hills. So explain that.
My ammo recommendation to LL was simply to let him know that there was some cheap match ammo out there for him to look at, nothing more.
Never shot Black hills ammo so I'm not able to comment on its accuracy. I know its very expensive and it comes in to classes. New and 1st reload. Once again most if not all commercial gun courses require you to use factory ammo for safety reasons. You know that.
stanlyonjr
06-01-09, 07:36
It depends on the battle. My brother who's a former Scout Sniper/Scout Sniper Instructor and has two combat deployments as a Scout Sniper including Fallujah laughed out loud at the very notion that Scout Snipers handload. He wanted to know when they're supposed to work up load data and who's going to buy all of the loading equipment when they have a hard enough time getting the basic gear?
I'm glad your brother got a good laugh. I'm sorry the Marines are not supplying him with the tools and the time to work up a load. I know that back in the early 80's by best friend the I went through SERE school with had plenty of time, money and whatever tool he needed to the job. I'm sorry to here that. I knew the troops where doing without. Pretty sad. Thank your brother for his service to this country if you would.
Yes, it is expensive. The loads we used were the factory loads, not reloads. They didn't inspect the ammo ( I brought my own) so there is no way they would have known. The instructor told us they use the BH because it is consistent and is available. Obviously consistency is important when trying to shoot at those ranges. So no I don't know that it has anything to do with safety.
Never shot Black hills ammo so I'm not able to comment on its accuracy. I know its very expensive and it comes in to classes. New and 1st reload. Once again most if not all commercial gun courses require you to use factory ammo for safety reasons. You know that.
Factory ammo will work, its just that the accuracy is not what I'm looking for. That applies to 5.56 and 7.62 IMO. Every barrel is different even if its the same model, totally different bullet and powder. I have two match 5.56 service rifles. One like Berger 77gr with Varget powder and another like JLK 80gr VLD with Reloader 15. Same exact barrel. If I shoot the Berger in other rifle my groups open up a minute to a minute and a half. Makes no sense at all but thats how it works. Takes about two pounds of powder and 500 shots to figure out a good load for a barrel. More sometimes. Considering the barrel is good for 5000 rounds 7000 of what I would consider excellent accuracy if its well taken care of. Thats a good percentage of your barrel to develop a consistent load for your rifle. DMR's in rifle companies use factory ammo during battle, but the Marine corp and Army snipers I know load all there own ammo for combat.
You know USMC snipers that handloaded ammunition for the M40a1 or M40a3? I think you are full of shit and a liar.
Chad
HiggsBoson
06-01-09, 08:44
Littlelebowski:
Is that a RR600-1?
When are you going to take that beauty out to Quantico? :cool:
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2336/range4lg.jpg
They just had a match (http://longrangeshootersofva.com/Match_Rules.html) there this weekend that looked absolutely painful:
300 yds: 3 stationary/2 movers
500 yds: 3 stationary/2 movers
600 yds: 3 stationary/2 movers
700 yds: 3 stationary/2 stop & go's
800 yds: 3 stationary/2 bobbers
900 yds: 5 stationary
1000 yds: 5 stationary
All stationary shots are on 20" x 40" sillhoettes (which I have), all movers are on 12" x 40" sillouettes at 1-3 fps patrolling pace. Stop and go targets only stop for 5 seconds, and bobbing targets only expose themselves for 5 seconds. Moving targets are controlled by target pullers physically walking the targets on a cadence in the pits (yes they are on sticks, wear eye pro, dont be a girl when the stick shatters).
:eek:
I watched the SEAL's on our ship load shells but In either case I try for 2 in or better at 600 yards for service rifle matches.
the x-ring on the 600 yrd target is 6 inches.
edit: btw, nice rifle, lebowski!
stanlyonjr
06-01-09, 09:52
the x-ring on the 600 yrd target is 6 inches.
edit: btw, nice rifle, lebowski!
Yes it is.
stanlyonjr
06-01-09, 09:54
You know USMC snipers that handloaded ammunition for the M40a1 or M40a3? I think you are full of shit and a liar.
Chad
I thought I told you to stay in the car!
dookie1481
06-13-09, 22:07
but the Marine corp and Army snipers I know load all there own ammo for combat.
Horse shit, I went to Scout/Sniper School at Stone Bay, we shot M118LR right out of the box.
Jay
Loaded it from little brown cardboard boxes marked "Special Ball".
stanlyonjr
06-13-09, 23:15
Horse shit, I went to Scout/Sniper School at Stone Bay, we shot M118LR right out of the box.
Jay
Bullshit I don't think you went to SS school.
Bullshit I don't think you went to SS school.
..but the Marine corp and Army snipers I know load all there own ammo for combat.
And you, of all people, are an expert on the USMC Scout Sniper. Right?
What size dots are the dots in the reticle on a Mil-dot scope???
(at 100 meters, obviously they increase decrease with shorter range and longer range right?)
LB sorry for the hi-jack but since i have so many EXPERT SCOUT SNIPER'S here i figured I could get the correct answer here..
And just for the sake of argument, and to stir crap up.I was hitting a 18 inch body target at 600 meter with m855 consistently. granted not head shots but I'm sure it would have still stung like hell. Want call bs? Ask Tiger Valley rifle instructor TJ Pilling. I really need to go do another one of his classes.
Also someone correct me if I'm wrong, this is not a topic i know well at all......But doesn't the military do everything in meters not yards? if so you'd think a Sniper would be concerned with accuracy in meters not yards.
BTW beautiful rifle. I do envy it. A 7.62x51 AR is not something ive got into yet, but your post definatly made me reconsider it as my next purchase.
Littlelebowski
06-14-09, 06:26
stanley, read the below. Chad is an 8541.
86-92, 1/9, 0311/8541
Trying to fight the urge for a .308 AR . I am trying to talk myself into a MK12 MOD1 clone it makes it hard to do when I see one nicely done as yours. Looks good with the barrel cut down to 21 inches and that PRS stock looks good to.
Nice Rifle..
lol I'm with ya, and that urge is getting tougher and tougher! I've got every caliber upper thus far with the exception of the .308, and having read quite a few range reports with different .308 configurations lately, I'm likely going to be building myself Mk12 MOD1 clone as well.
The accuracy argument is one of those "good enough" discussions. I'd agree with the poster though in this regard, to obtain maximum possible accuracy, you'll probably have to handload. Now it just depends on what your accuracy requirements are.
I'm not up to speed on .308 chambers and reloading techniques, but in .223/5.56 match bullets, the VLD-type bullets (Hornady A-Max, Sierra 80 grain, JLK, many of the bergers) cannot be loaded to mag length. They are loaded long (2.450ish") and single loaded at a time. Rifle builders, knowing this, cut the throats to custom lengths to account for these bullet lengths and seating depths are tightly controlled during reloading. Seating depths are measured off of the jump to the lands, and are set at around .020 jump, sometimes less. The throats are cut short enough so the reloader can modify seating depth/cartridge OAL over time as the barrel wears (i.e., chase the lands), but long enough to maximize case capacity.
I'm not sure if any of those restrictions/constraints apply to .308 or if you can load any 175 HP to a mag-length and call it good. But reloading does allow tailoring different powders and powder weights, and with that experimentation, you ought to be able to come up with a very accurate load, assuming your barrel is decent.
Another good match bullet is a 155 grain Palma weight. They shouldn't recoil as much, but I doubt they'd group as tightly at long range as a 175. But that's the mandated weight for Palma competitioon, and competitors shoot them accurately out to 900/1,000 so they're a viable option if you elect to handload.
Someone mentioned Black Hills, I'm assuming from this they have some factory match loads using 155/168/175s. If so, you might want to try those and see if they meet your requirements/expectations. Outside of that though, I'm not sure if anyone else manufactures match ammo, maybe Federal???? Options are slim, and lacking any factory match ammo you are into hunting ammo using some ballistic tip-type bullet for your best possible accuracy loads. I've got to believe any of these would be more accurate than military ball loads, but I could be wrong.
Since you are the one who made the ridiculously outlandish statement that you know of snipers who handload their own duty ammo I don't think that you should be calling anyones' credentials into question. I know a fairly large cross section of snipers from all branches and units and your statement doesn't hold any water whatsoever. I have asked several of the ones I know and everyone called bullshit on your statement.
Bullshit I don't think you went to SS school.
Littlelebowski
06-14-09, 11:28
Shot the gun at 50 yards yesterday and it was boring. 10 rds into one hole. I know it wasn't 100 yards but that 50 yard range is the closest one I have and it's at least an idea of what it can do. Tried TAP, Federal Gold Medal Match, and cheap 150 grain rds all shot well.
Marine Corps snipers use yards. U.S Army (and I believe the Air Force) use meters. My guess is that SEAL snipers would also use yards as well.
What size dots are the dots in the reticle on a Mil-dot scope???
(at 100 meters, obviously they increase decrease with shorter range and longer range right?)
LB sorry for the hi-jack but since i have so many EXPERT SCOUT SNIPER'S here i figured I could get the correct answer here..
And just for the sake of argument, and to stir crap up.I was hitting a 18 inch body target at 600 meter with m855 consistently. granted not head shots but I'm sure it would have still stung like hell. Want call bs? Ask Tiger Valley rifle instructor TJ Pilling. I really need to go do another one of his classes.
Also someone correct me if I'm wrong, this is not a topic i know well at all......But doesn't the military do everything in meters not yards? if so you'd think a Sniper would be concerned with accuracy in meters not yards.
BTW beautiful rifle. I do envy it. A 7.62x51 AR is not something ive got into yet, but your post definatly made me reconsider it as my next purchase.
dookie1481
06-14-09, 12:16
What size dots are the dots in the reticle on a Mil-dot scope???
(at 100 meters, obviously they increase decrease with shorter range and longer range right?)
LB sorry for the hi-jack but since i have so many EXPERT SCOUT SNIPER'S here i figured I could get the correct answer here..
And just for the sake of argument, and to stir crap up.I was hitting a 18 inch body target at 600 meter with m855 consistently. granted not head shots but I'm sure it would have still stung like hell. Want call bs? Ask Tiger Valley rifle instructor TJ Pilling. I really need to go do another one of his classes.
Also someone correct me if I'm wrong, this is not a topic i know well at all......But doesn't the military do everything in meters not yards? if so you'd think a Sniper would be concerned with accuracy in meters not yards.
BTW beautiful rifle. I do envy it. A 7.62x51 AR is not something ive got into yet, but your post definatly made me reconsider it as my next purchase.
I never passed, never said I was a HOG. Depends on which scope, I went with an A1 and there were two different sizes. I think one was 1.4 mil and the other was 1 or something. That was over 7 years ago.
Jay
dookie1481
06-14-09, 12:19
Bullshit I don't think you went to SS school.
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r90/dookie1481/1244999131.jpg
And the slap has been heard.
Ooh Rah Jason and Semper Fi! Thank you for your service.
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