View Full Version : Is chrome moly ever worth it?
I've been kicking around the idea of building a retro sytle gun like an SP1 carbine. The one thing that has held me back is finding a lightweight barrel. I don't want to do anything with the project until I can secure a barrel. Well I found a double star (i can live with that) barrel in the profile I want. The problem is that it's chrome moly:mad:. Normally I try to stay with high or decent quality components so thinking about using a chrome moly barrel is a tough sell. Considering it's meant to be a retro rifle and not a combat arm, chrome moly wouldn't be such a big deal, however I'm sure I'll end up using it as a truck rifle since it would be much light than my current one. I'll bet that the gun won't see more than 300 rounds a year. Can anyone sway me one way or the other on this? Currently I'm kind of leaning towards waiting until bushmaster can get caught up on barrels and buy form them, but at the same time I wanted to have this project completed this summer before I go back to school and the chrome moly barrel is available right now.
What are you comparing it to? Chrome lined? or a stainless barrel? What are your negative perceptions of chromoly barrels? I believe bushmaster makes chrome line pencil barrels.
I guess I was comparing it to getting a chrome moly now or wait for a chrome lined one. I guess I figured chome moly was inferior since no one seems to use it on any serious use gun and the army went chrome lined. The only thing I guess chrome moly would be good for is extra accuracy, but since I want a pencil barrel and I am making an iron sighted gun, the accuracy gain wouldn't be noticed.
I guess I was comparing it to getting a chrome moly now or wait for a chrome lined one. I guess I figured chome moly was inferior since no one seems to use it on any serious use gun and the army went chrome lined. The only thing I guess chrome moly would be good for is extra accuracy, but since I want a pencil barrel and I am making an iron sighted gun, the accuracy gain wouldn't be noticed.
You can still have a an accurate pencil barrel, they just heat up faster at which point you would start to notice a loss in accuracy. The chrome lining comes from the maintenance aspect, ie corrosion resistance, easier to clean, and possible longer barrel life. There are some very accurate chrome lined barrels available my experience with LMT, colt, bushmaster and noveske all get about 1.5" groups at 100 yards...those are 10 shot groups with m855 ammo. I would agree that for a heavy use rifle that is going to see adverse conditions that chrome lined/chrome moly barrel is the way to go but for your firing schedule and and use i wouldn't have a hard time using a chrome moly barrel...how ever i am suspect of Double star products as they are the same company as J&T distributing . If you poke around a bit i think you could easily find a chrome lined barrel for your project.
Hope this rambling post helps.
edited to add; some of the best barrels made are chrome moly, they just might not be chrome lined ;-)
I thought doublestar was part of jt distributing.
I'll tell you, I've been looking for a chrome lined pencil barrel and I haven't had much luck with any distributors. Bushmaster seemed to have the best lead time and they were 14 to 16 weeks.
Yup, i was correcting the post as you replied. Hard to keep track of them all in my walnut sized brain.
chromoly isn't a BAD barrel, and for your uses, it'll outlast you. they tend to be more accurate than chrome-lined barrels, and inexpensive.
for 200-$225, maybe $250, the barrel will still send a projectile down-range accurately enough long after it's technically shot through. if you can't handle (because you actually notice) a 1-3 MOA loss of accuracy, after years of shooting and thousands of rounds, replace it- it was only 200-225 to begin with.
i'm not recommending the chromoly, just giving food for thought. if i was trying to build for as cheap as i could, i'd use chromoly. otherwise, place an order and keep looking while you wait out the 14-16 weeks.
Mil-spec barrels ARE chromoly steel. They are then either hard chrome lined or subjected to a salt bath nitrocarburization process.
Chrome moly and a chrome lined barrel are two different things. Chrome moly is a type of steel, usually used to build roll cages in cars because its strong and light. Chrome lining is a process done to coat the steel. I believe you could chrome line a chrome moly barrel.
lanceriley
05-29-09, 19:03
Didn't cmmg have a lightweight barrel?
Heavy Metal
05-29-09, 19:15
Didn't cmmg have a lightweight barrel?
This^
lanceriley
05-29-09, 19:22
I think they do have a cmmg chrome barrel although it will be 1/7 twist.
but cmmg has a long waiting list.
Chrome moly and a chrome lined barrel are two different things. Chrome moly is a type of steel, usually used to build roll cages in cars because its strong and light. Chrome lining is a process done to coat the steel. I believe you could chrome line a chrome moly barrel.
chromoly and chrome lined are not necessarily two different things- the terms are simply used to differentiate between chrome-lined and not chrome-lined. basically all non-stainless barrels are chromoly- the good ones, which are almost always chrome-lined, are 4150 chromoly and/or chromoly vandium. "chromoly," for our purposes, is generally not chrome-lined and is 4140 chromoly steel.
either can be chrome-lined, but one is more so than the other. the terms we're using are just simplifications for identification.
I'd just buy the CM barrel because if you can afford to shoot it out with todays ammo prices, you're doing better than most of us.
lanceriley
05-29-09, 23:18
id suggest the chrome bore. less maintenance. we don't have a lot of shooting time as we use to have. we're not wasting that on a lot of cleaning sessions.
I think they do have a cmmg chrome barrel although it will be 1/7 twist.
but cmmg has a long waiting list.
Their website lists either 1/7 or 1/12.
If its just a truck gun than I would take a chrome moly barrel. They are a little harder to clean but if you break it in right that will help cut down on fouling and make it easier to clean. It will probably be a little more accurate too. My friend is in special forces and I have sent him barrels and they are always chrome moly sticks. He does like stainless steel for his SPR stuff but as a everyday carry rifle he says chrome moly has always got the job done. Good enough for me. The military chrome lines their stuff to get longevity. Like you said if its going to be a replica our a truck gun I doubt you would be wearing a chrome moly barrel out anytime soon.
WyrTwister
05-31-09, 16:31
I've been kicking around the idea of building a retro sytle gun like an SP1 carbine. The one thing that has held me back is finding a lightweight barrel. I don't want to do anything with the project until I can secure a barrel. Well I found a double star (i can live with that) barrel in the profile I want. The problem is that it's chrome moly:mad:. Normally I try to stay with high or decent quality components so thinking about using a chrome moly barrel is a tough sell. Considering it's meant to be a retro rifle and not a combat arm, chrome moly wouldn't be such a big deal, however I'm sure I'll end up using it as a truck rifle since it would be much light than my current one. I'll bet that the gun won't see more than 300 rounds a year. Can anyone sway me one way or the other on this? Currently I'm kind of leaning towards waiting until bushmaster can get caught up on barrels and buy form them, but at the same time I wanted to have this project completed this summer before I go back to school and the chrome moly barrel is available right now.
I am not a newbie to the AR . But I am on my first build .
I have always read that CM is probably going to be more accurate ( or potentially more accurate ) than chrome lined ?
I briefly had a Bushy w/ chrome lined barrel . Was much easier to clean than CM or SS . But the Bushy was not as accurate as my A2 CM kit gun . So I sold it .
I guess it depends on what you want ?
God bless
Wyr
WyrTwister
05-31-09, 16:40
I guess I was comparing it to getting a chrome moly now or wait for a chrome lined one. I guess I figured chome moly was inferior since no one seems to use it on any serious use gun and the army went chrome lined. The only thing I guess chrome moly would be good for is extra accuracy, but since I want a pencil barrel and I am making an iron sighted gun, the accuracy gain wouldn't be noticed.
My understanding is the Army went Chrome lined after the Viet Nam experience ( lots of moisture , at least during part of the year ) , for corrosion protection . Also , since the chrome has a tendacy to be slick and hard , it may aid extraction and probably / does extend bore life ?
As far as accuracy , A person with good eyes and a sready rest ( sand bags ) can shoot just about as accurately at 100 yards with irons as with glass .
I have shot 1" - 2" , a few years ago , when my eyes were better . Not a world record , but as good or better than a lot of folks with fancy deer rifles and fancy optics .
Course , good hand loads help . :-)
I do not know , but if you can install a CMP FF hand guard to the light barreled AR you are thinking about ( do not know if that would work ? ) you might be surprised at the accuracy ?
Biggest thing may be that since the light barrel heats up quicker , POI may start to drift sooner , than a heavy barrel . But this applies whether it is chrome lined or not .
Lastly , I do not think the bench rest crowd used chrome lined barrels ?
But , have fun , it is your money .
God bless
Wyr
chrome lining is just about durability. it does reduce accuracy, but not in a way that effects combat shooting. for any kind of "precision" shooting, you go to stainless. chromoly doesn't really fill any purpose except cost. they might be a little more accurate on average than CL, but if you're looking for accuracy over durability, you're gonna get stainless- which is just as corrosion resistent as CL. and, a good stainless barrel from a good manufacturer is probably going to last longer than chromoly.
there's only two options, in my opinion, if you're serious about it- CL or stainless. but if cost/impatience are factors, then do whatever you want, and enjoy! in this instance, the OP will probably be served well by any barrel.
+1 to bkb000. Listen to this guy.
WyrTwister
06-01-09, 04:06
chrome lining is just about durability. it does reduce accuracy, but not in a way that effects combat shooting. for any kind of "precision" shooting, you go to stainless. chromoly doesn't really fill any purpose except cost. they might be a little more accurate on average than CL, but if you're looking for accuracy over durability, you're gonna get stainless- which is just as corrosion resistent as CL. and, a good stainless barrel from a good manufacturer is probably going to last longer than chromoly.
there's only two options, in my opinion, if you're serious about it- CL or stainless. but if cost/impatience are factors, then do whatever you want, and enjoy! in this instance, the OP will probably be served well by any barrel.
Isn't CM what is used in the average commercial civilian rifle barrel ? ( Rem ,Winny Savage , etc . )
My M1 Garands ?
FAL's ?
Not sure about CETME , H&K , Hakim .
Mausers , Mosin Nagants and a host of others do not have CL barrels .
Granted , SS may be/ probably / is better .
But most of us civilians are never going to be able to come up with the $$$ ( especially at todays prices ) to wear out a barrel , anyway .
Do not get me wrong , I have a target AR w/ a SS barrel .
I just can not see what is wrong with a CM barrel for us civilians ?
God bless
Wyr
Isn't CM what is used in the average commercial civilian rifle barrel ? ( Rem ,Winny Savage , etc . )
My M1 Garands ?
FAL's ?
Not sure about CETME , H&K , Hakim .
Mausers , Mosin Nagants and a host of others do not have CL barrels .
Granted , SS may be/ probably / is better .
But most of us civilians are never going to be able to come up with the $$$ ( especially at todays prices ) to wear out a barrel , anyway .
Do not get me wrong , I have a target AR w/ a SS barrel .
I just can not see what is wrong with a CM barrel for us civilians ?
God bless
Wyr
ARs are designed and intended to have a lot more rounds put through 'em. i've put in excess of 800 through an AR in a day... which is more than most will EVER put through their M1 or mauser.
as i said, if you know you wont be shooting much, get whatever fits your budget/schedule.
WyrTwister
06-01-09, 12:59
ARs are designed and intended to have a lot more rounds put through 'em. i've put in excess of 800 through an AR in a day... which is more than most will EVER put through their M1 or mauser.
as i said, if you know you wont be shooting much, get whatever fits your budget/schedule.
I respectfully beg to differ .
Uncle sugar put a Lot of rounds through Garands , during WWII and Korea . At that time , more barrels were " finished " by corrosive ammo , than wear .
Or worn out bores , from improper use of cleaning rods .
Same thing concerning the Germans and the Mausers .
Granted , I can not afford the ammo to wear any of them out .
God bless
Wyr
in a non-military setting, chrome molly can be the best choice.
Its more accurate than chrome lined and can be as accurate as stainless.
Realistically, the CroMo bbls are lower end products.
In that case you'll typically get something more accurate than a Chrome lined bbl and cheaper.
Heavy Metal
06-03-09, 23:14
There are very few people who will ever take advantage of the fraction of an MOA improvement a CM barrel will give them or a chrome lined barrel.
Some Chrome Lined barrels like the Noveske Cold Hammer Forged double-chrome barrels are more accurate than the best match barrels of a genetration ago and they will keep that level of accuracy long after even the best maintained chrome-moly bore has been shot out several times over.
Heavy Metal
06-03-09, 23:19
in a non-military setting, chrome molly can be the best choice.
Its more accurate than chrome lined and can be as accurate as stainless.
Realistically, the CroMo bbls are lower end products.
In that case you'll typically get something more accurate than a Chrome lined bbl and cheaper.
As I said, unless you are running a high-end optic on a a varmit or SPR set-up along with match ammo, you will never notice this theoretical advantage. There are many other factors that will limit your field grade accuracy before this slight manufacturing difference will come into effect. It is far from being the long pole in the tent.
Chrome lined barrels are also far more resistant to improper cleaning techniques and poor to non-existant maintaince.
Chrome moly barrels can start to rust in one night if the conditions are right. I have witnessed it myself.
Those are great points.
Let me put it another way. If you are on a budget and will be using your AR with american made ammo and clean it on a reasonable schedule, there's nothing wrong with chrome molly.
For most of us the theoretical accuracy advantage (all else being equal, but then when does that happen) would just be a bonus.
For some guys a savings of $50 here and $50 there makes a difference.
Don
WyrTwister
06-04-09, 12:20
Those are great points.
Let me put it another way. If you are on a budget and will be using your AR with american made ammo and clean it on a reasonable schedule, there's nothing wrong with chrome molly.
For most of us the theoretical accuracy advantage (all else being equal, but then when does that happen) would just be a bonus.
For some guys a savings of $50 here and $50 there makes a difference.
Don
Yep .
Plus , some of us do not want a chrome lined barrel , if we have a choice .
God bless
Wyr
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