View Full Version : Parts is not parts.
QuietShootr
05-30-09, 22:03
I am a quality parts snob, and I'm not ashamed of it. I have had great results from sticking with Colt or LMT parts for all my builds.
That being said, even I am getting a little weary of $250 Colt BCGs and LPKs.
Barrels are a whole separate topic that I don't wish to address in this thread - So...
Who makes the best quality non-Colt/LMT BCGs and LPKs? Why do you think so?
One problem is that the probability of getting a bad parts kit from any manufacturer is pretty low. A person who has built one rifle, two, or a dozen on XYZ's lower parts kit doesn't have enough sample size to make a definitive judgment on quality.
QuietShootr
05-30-09, 22:31
One problem is that the probability of getting a bad parts kit from any manufacturer is pretty low. A person who has built one rifle, two, or a dozen on XYZ's lower parts kit doesn't have enough sample size to make a definitive judgment on quality.
I'm not really asking the guy who has built six Mega lowers with M1S/Nesard/Sherluk LPKs and hasn't broken one yet...I'm more interested in guys like Iraqgunz who have a large pool of guns to look at and make some judgments.
In my personal experience, I've seen Bushhamster and DPMS hammers, triggers, and disconnectors that were too soft, and the engagement surfaces started looking chewed up under a thousand rounds. I've seen broken "Just as Good As" bolts, hammers, and extractors break when someone was dim enough to show up to a carbine class with a gun-show parts gun and expect it to run with 6920s.
I just keep one more LPK on hand then I need. That way, if something doesn't work, I've got an extra on hand.
Colt doesn't manufacture parts. And, judging from the recent backlog due to two parts (bolt catch and selector), it's probably a good guess that only one or two places actually manufactures them for everyone.
being an "LPK snob" is inside the border of Ridiculousville.. a completely wasted effort. stag, bushmaster, colt, LMT, whoever... if you can get reliable information that a particular manufacturer, who actually manufacturers their own LPKs, is using MIM parts in place of parts that should be machined, or some other dirty practice, then discriminate. otherwise, you're just not going to see a difference. except DPMS- their FCGs are ****in awful. i'd still use their springs, detends and pins though.
Razorhunter
05-30-09, 23:27
I just keep one more LPK on hand then I need. That way, if something doesn't work, I've got an extra on hand.
Colt doesn't manufacture parts. And, judging from the recent backlog due to two parts (bolt catch and selector), it's probably a good guess that only one or two places actually manufactures them for everyone.
August,
Are you saying that Colt currently is waiting on bolt catches and selectors, and cannot ship rifles because of this? That's what your post sounds like.
If so, I'd like to know where this info came from? Just curious.
Also, are you saying that Colt doesn't manufacture parts? I always thought they manufactured most of their parts. ?? I know their selector levers are unique, and unlike any others you see on the market.
Very interested in your answers.
Thanks.
QuietShootr
05-30-09, 23:36
Also interested in what the industry folks think of the possible penetration of Chinese AR parts into the supply chain. I examined some gas keys today that I'll eat my LaRue hat if they're US made.
It sometimes seems that unless parts came from SAW or Brownells, you're taking a chance on not getting what you ordered.
Bolts, carriers, and BCGs I expect we'll see some counterfeiting in very soon.
I just keep one more LPK on hand then I need. That way, if something doesn't work, I've got an extra on hand.
Colt doesn't manufacture parts. And, judging from the recent backlog due to two parts (bolt catch and selector), it's probably a good guess that only one or two places actually manufactures them for everyone.
Not true, Colt does manufacture most of their own parts including most of the lower parts.
Quietshootr,
The LPK issue does seem rather tricky. Over here I generally use Bushmaster LPK's since they are the OEM for our weapons and I can get the quantities needed. Having said that if I detect a part that looks like crap or is suspect I will toss it out. On my personal weapons I used GandR lower parts and Colt because they "appeared' to be better quality overall.
It would be nice to know who actually manufactures the LPK's for the various AR's on the market. I was under the impression that Colt made their stuff or in the even that it was subcontracted the subcontractor had to meet the MILSPEC.
Recently I ordered and received a Stag kit and based on the photos my wife sent me everything looked like it was GTG.
SWATcop556
05-31-09, 05:38
I tried to use Colt or LMT for my LPK's when I first started to build rifles for "social purposes" but it hurt to spend almost the same amount as a new Glock would cost on parts. I then gave Stag/ CMT a try and used one of their LPK's and I was impressed. I have shot the ever-living shit out of that gun and it is still ticking.
I still will only use a BCG from Colt, LMT, or BCM. Too many issues with anything else.
I have one of Grant's G&R BCG's in one of my builds and so far it has been GTG but I don't have enough rounds down the pipe to be definitive, but I like what I see (and Grant backs his stuff up 100%).
I also like the idea behind Grant's LPK as well. Take the best from all the options and sell it as a kit. Now if he could just get them in stock....
If you're looking for a LPK a little more on the sane side of the price spectrum I would go with Stag/ CMT.
Quietshootr,
Where did you see the suspect gas keys, and in what way did they appear to be subpar?
QuietShootr
05-31-09, 09:04
Colt doesn't manufacture parts.
Bzzzzt. Wrong. Colt makes almost ALL of their own parts, and the ones that they sub out have to pass Colt QC before they enter Colt's supply.
I'm thinking it's time for a new edition of "The Chart", only this time, for parts, and here's why: A high quality build can be as good as or better than a factory gun, PROVIDED A) it's assembled by someone who truly knows what they're doing, and B) the parts are high quality.
QuietShootr
05-31-09, 09:07
Quietshootr,
Where did you see the suspect gas keys, and in what way did they appear to be subpar?
Gun show. They appeared to be cold-blued (looks like a Norinco AK blue job) and had no chrome lining.
i will give a bit of advice.
and a clue, to those who are gnawing this question.
just from accessing this forum over say, the past few years, all the information
has been disseminated( by some of the top men in the industry) to answer your questions. not to spoon feed a "market" with a "product" or to even gain sales at all. just a group of men (often using their real names not some nickname) discussing the building of m4carbines and how the market is evolving. we often build many kinds of rifles, and have been doing so for many years. in the past we have often been relegated to using surplus parts from many different countries.
my advice is to adapt this, not at all new, strategy to the acquisition of ar15 type parts. Grant discussed this strategy when he first offered the G&R kit some time ago. the main difference i see is that the whole m4carbine/ar15 playing field is alive and active. not subject to governments releasing stores of parts when the weapons become obsolete. in my mind this is a big advantage. the wars have put the system through real tests and many things now are quite different from
the way they were when colt ran the show on the civillian and government sides.
no one "kit" will give the optimum results.
i am more likely to remove one's eyes with a sharpened spoon than to spoon feed the answers to a demanding public.(but that's just me)
WyrTwister
05-31-09, 16:52
being an "LPK snob" is inside the border of Ridiculousville.. a completely wasted effort. stag, bushmaster, colt, LMT, whoever... if you can get reliable information that a particular manufacturer, who actually manufacturers their own LPKs, is using MIM parts in place of parts that should be machined, or some other dirty practice, then discriminate. otherwise, you're just not going to see a difference. except DPMS- their FCGs are ****in awful. i'd still use their springs, detends and pins though.
What is MIM ?
FCG - Fire Control Group ?
Thanks ,
God bless
Wyr
hey wyr,
mim is the acronym for metal injection molded.
fcg is fire control group.
i think i saw a seam indicating the mim process on a colt type 1 hammer i just used.
with respect to that hammer i notice thick and uniform finish on all surfaces including the sear engagement surface.
the radius that contacts the sear upper surface is very well machined and finished.
an important/critical part is worth a bit more.
he heh,
wrt bkb,
wtf does a quad zero know?
hey wyr,
mim is the acronym for metal injection molded.
fcg is fire control group.
i think i saw a seam indicating the mim process on a colt type 1 hammer i just used.
with respect to that hammer i notice thick and uniform finish on all surfaces including the sear engagement surface.
the radius that contacts the sear upper surface is very well machined and finished.
an important/critical part is worth a bit more.
he heh,
wrt bkb,
wtf does a quad zero know?
a seam doesn't indicate MIM- forging and casting also produce seams, only billet leaves no seam.
QuietShootr
05-31-09, 20:08
i will give a bit of advice.
and a clue, to those who are gnawing this question.
just from accessing this forum over say, the past few years, all the information
has been disseminated( by some of the top men in the industry) to answer your questions. not to spoon feed a "market" with a "product" or to even gain sales at all. just a group of men (often using their real names not some nickname) discussing the building of m4carbines and how the market is evolving. we often build many kinds of rifles, and have been doing so for many years. in the past we have often been relegated to using surplus parts from many different countries.
my advice is to adapt this, not at all new, strategy to the acquisition of ar15 type parts. Grant discussed this strategy when he first offered the G&R kit some time ago. the main difference i see is that the whole m4carbine/ar15 playing field is alive and active. not subject to governments releasing stores of parts when the weapons become obsolete. in my mind this is a big advantage. the wars have put the system through real tests and many things now are quite different from
the way they were when colt ran the show on the civillian and government sides.
no one "kit" will give the optimum results.
i am more likely to remove one's eyes with a sharpened spoon than to spoon feed the answers to a demanding public.(but that's just me)
Huh???
Razorhunter
05-31-09, 23:00
Huh???
Yeah, what he said.
QuietShootr - I liked the rabbit w/pancake on top of his head better though... Should have left it...
hey wyr,
mim is the acronym for metal injection molded.
fcg is fire control group.
i think i saw a seam indicating the mim process on a colt type 1 hammer i just used.
with respect to that hammer i notice thick and uniform finish on all surfaces including the sear engagement surface.
the radius that contacts the sear upper surface is very well machined and finished.
an important/critical part is worth a bit more.
he heh,
wrt bkb,
wtf does a quad zero know?
The hammer is not MIM, and as noted before forging will leave a line.
WyrTwister
06-01-09, 03:55
hey wyr,
mim is the acronym for metal injection molded.
fcg is fire control group.
i think i saw a seam indicating the mim process on a colt type 1 hammer i just used.
with respect to that hammer i notice thick and uniform finish on all surfaces including the sear engagement surface.
the radius that contacts the sear upper surface is very well machined and finished.
an important/critical part is worth a bit more.
he heh,
wrt bkb,
wtf does a quad zero know?
So MIM is a form of casting ? Die casting ? As opposed to sand casting ?
God bless
Wyr
spamsammich
06-01-09, 05:08
http://www.gknsintermetals.com/technology/mimprocess.htm
about a minutes worth of google-fu.
WyrTwister
06-01-09, 06:35
http://www.gknsintermetals.com/technology/mimprocess.htm
about a minutes worth of google-fu.
So it is a metal particle process ? What I once herd referred to as sinstering (sp ) ?
God bless
Wyr
http://www.anvil-mfg.com may be worth a look. They are ramping up to produce BCGs this summer.
LPKs are hard to come by, from everything I read it probably will be months before supplies hit the streets.
i am not certain how the hammer in question was made
but i do approve of the finished product.
even better parts than these could be made.
though i doubt they would be less expensive.
QuietShootr
06-01-09, 19:09
http://www.anvil-mfg.com may be worth a look. They are ramping up to produce BCGs this summer.
LPKs are hard to come by, from everything I read it probably will be months before supplies hit the streets.
Hm. Those LOOK good.
I just got two Stag LPKs direct from Stag.
Hm. Those LOOK good.
I just got two Stag LPKs direct from Stag.
I spoke to Jon in person a couple of weeks ago for probably 30 minutes about his new BCGs, I'm interested to try one out.
Heavy Metal
06-01-09, 20:19
Mil-Spec Hammers and Triggers are castings. The disconnector is a stamping.
QuietShootr
06-01-09, 20:43
I spoke to Jon in person a couple of weeks ago for probably 30 minutes about his new BCGs, I'm interested to try one out.
I may get on the preorder list for one of the M16/Carpenter BCGs.
The more I think about this, the more I think a Parts Chart would be a good thing. I think with what's undoubtedly going to happen in the next year or two, parts are going to be more and more critical...and knowing what you are getting when trying to get repair parts will be very important.
http://www.anvil-mfg.com may be worth a look. They are ramping up to produce BCGs this summer.
LPKs are hard to come by, from everything I read it probably will be months before supplies hit the streets.
i'm i just a blind asshole, or is there no price listed anywhere?
i'm i just a blind asshole, or is there no price listed anywhere?
I don't know about the asshole part but blind would be accurate. :) $140.00 and $155.00 are the two prices shown for retail.
I may get on the preorder list for one of the M16/Carpenter BCGs.
The more I think about this, the more I think a Parts Chart would be a good thing. I think with what's undoubtedly going to happen in the next year or two, parts are going to be more and more critical...and knowing what you are getting when trying to get repair parts will be very important.
Well, I don't want to go blabbing about what he told me but I'm convinced he knows what he is talking about in terms of BCGs, so his new products should be top notch. Also, I'm interested to try out an LPK of his manufacture when they arrive.
Bzzzzt. Wrong. Colt makes almost ALL of their own parts, and the ones that they sub out have to pass Colt QC before they enter Colt's supply.
I'm thinking it's time for a new edition of "The Chart", only this time, for parts, and here's why: A high quality build can be as good as or better than a factory gun, PROVIDED A) it's assembled by someone who truly knows what they're doing, and B) the parts are high quality.
According to Ken Hackathorn, it is guestimated that Colt only makes about 6 parts in house now.
C4
Quality parts are VERY hard to get. We have kind of come up with mix and match system for LPK (some LMT, some Colt, some from .Mil contractor). The problem though is getting all the parts in at one time (in order to offer them).
Personally, I would only use LMT or Colt LPK's.
C4
nogoodnamesleft
06-02-09, 12:33
According to Ken Hackathorn, it is guestimated that Colt only makes about 6 parts in house now.
C4
You wouldn't happen to know (or want to guess at) which six, would you?
According to Ken Hackathorn, it is guestimated that Colt only makes about 6 parts in house now.
C4
I don't believe that is accurate, based on the reports of someone who toured the factory and also if you take into account the CEO of Colt testifying before Congress in the 1990s who told Congress almost all parts are made in house.
CaptainDooley
06-02-09, 12:52
According to Ken Hackathorn, it is guestimated that Colt only makes about 6 parts in house now.
C4
I don't believe that is accurate, based on the reports of someone who toured the factory and also if you take into account the CEO of Colt testifying before Congress in the 1990s who told Congress almost all parts are made in house.
The CEO of Colt testifying nearly 20 years ago may have been accurate then, but that hardly means that same testimony is accurate now... Just a thought.
You wouldn't happen to know (or want to guess at) which six, would you?
I have an idea, but am not interested in creating any more half truths than what is already on the errornet.
C4
I don't believe that is accurate, based on the reports of someone who toured the factory and also if you take into account the CEO of Colt testifying before Congress in the 1990s who told Congress almost all parts are made in house.
Colt used to make a lot to everything house (like in the 1990's). Ken's intel is generally VERY accurate.
C4
Heavy Metal
06-02-09, 16:33
I think with what's undoubtedly going to happen in the next year or two, parts are going to be more and more critical...and knowing what you are getting when trying to get repair parts will be very important.
I really don't see what is shaping up to be a near-certain shellacking of the congressional democrats in 10' is going to create an environment where your access to AR parts is in anyways more restricted than today.
Razorhunter
06-02-09, 23:58
I may get on the preorder list for one of the M16/Carpenter BCGs.
More info please. What the heck is a "Carpenter BCG" ?????
I wonder, just how many companies can there be actually mass producing AR barrels, 6? 8? 10? How about uppers and lowers? More? Less? About the same? BCG's? When I bought my lowers (YHM) a few months back I compared them to others that were available, CMMG, Territorial and another I can't remember. The finishes appeared identical, as did many of the small finishing details; from the same factory or just built to the same standard, my eyes couldn't tell the difference. To further muddy the waters, many of these AR manufacturers share parent companies. We all know that shareholder value drives manufacturing decisions, leading to consolidating of the supply stream. It makes one wonder just who is producing all of the components that make up all of these "uniquely" branded AR's. I would say that is probably much more likely that instead of raw billets of whatever material entering said manufacturer's loading dock that instead there are UPS boxes of half finished components bearing said manufacturer's name, all from the same factory, waiting for assembly.
spamsammich
06-03-09, 04:36
More info please. What the heck is a "Carpenter BCG" ?????
Did you go to the anvil sight? It's explained pretty well there.
I trust Anvil about as far as I can throw him (and he's a big boy). I'll wait to jump on that band wagon until someone I trust has a lot of rounds on them.
He posted on another forum that he isn't doing HPT because it would add $60 or something to the price of the bolt and that NOBODY is offering BCGs in the $130 range that have been HPT. Whoops, the LMTs are. He was basing all of this on the fact that he sees Colt BCGs command a $100 premium. :rolleyes:
On the original topic...
For most of us the issue comes down to trust. I defer to people that know more about this shit than I do, and on my own past experience with the vendor. Paul Buforni of Bravo Company, Grant from G&R, and LMT are some of the vendors that I both trust to sell me what they tell me they are and have good intel from others that I trust as to the quality and specs of the parts these guys are selling.
In the interest of "trust but verify", I've been looking into some destructive testing of a few parts just to see what's what. ;)
I do have to agree with Rob s.
Although I feel this is "drinking the kool aid" to an extent, how else can a person know? There certainly seems to be an abundance of vendors who popped out of the woodwork about the time this madness started.
Do these guys care what they sell? Are their parts tier 1, or just as good?
The last BCG I bought for a carbine build was a Bravo Company. After examining it and using it, I'll get another for a build. As long as Bravo's quality remains tier 1, these can go to $200, and they're worth it to me.
Mark15
I do have to agree with Rob s.
Although I feel this is "drinking the kool aid" to an extent, how else can a person know? There certainly seems to be an abundance of vendors who popped out of the woodwork about the time this madness started.
Do these guys care what they sell? Are their parts tier 1, or just as good?
The last BCG I bought for a carbine build was a Bravo Company. After examining it and using it, I'll get another for a build. As long as Bravo's quality remains tier 1, these can go to $200, and they're worth it to me.
Mark15
I guess I'm not seeing an abundance of LPK and BCG manufacturers jumping out of the woodwork.
I agree, we all should take a wait and see approach. But the same was said about LaRue, Geissele, etc. and we all know where they ended up.
Clearly the raw materials specified for these assemblies are a step in the right direction......
Clearly the raw materials specified for these assemblies are a step in the right direction......
I don't care if they're made out of diamonds and gold, if they have Anvil on them I'll be going somewhere else.
Which is part of what I'm talking about.
If Paul Bufoni posted tomorrow telling everyone that he was making a new... hell, a new car for chrissakes, and posted the specs and why his car was so great, I'd buy it. I would take his word for it and I would buy it (assuming I needed a new car). Sight unseen, I'd buy it. Paul has proven himself over and over again to know what he's talking about, take the time to learn what he doesn't know from the right people, and the integrity to stand behind ever single thing he sells. If he decided to make a new car I am confident that he would learn every single thing there is to learn about cars and he would produce the best goddamn car anyone anywhere could produce.
Anvil is, for me, the exact opposite. Until I see hundreds of people with thousands of trouble-free rounds on these new wonder bolts, I'm staying the hell away from them.
I trust Anvil about as far as I can throw him (and he's a big boy). I'll wait to jump on that band wagon until someone I trust has a lot of rounds on them.
He posted on another forum that he isn't doing HPT because it would add $60 or something to the price of the bolt and that NOBODY is offering BCGs in the $130 range that have been HPT. Whoops, the LMTs are. He was basing all of this on the fact that he sees Colt BCGs command a $100 premium. :rolleyes:
On the original topic...
For most of us the issue comes down to trust. I defer to people that know more about this shit than I do, and on my own past experience with the vendor. Paul Buforni of Bravo Company, Grant from G&R, and LMT are some of the vendors that I both trust to sell me what they tell me they are and have good intel from others that I trust as to the quality and specs of the parts these guys are selling.
In the interest of "trust but verify", I've been looking into some destructive testing of a few parts just to see what's what. ;)
Anvil knows little to anything about the market and what is quality and what is not. For instance, he ordered the majority of the BCG's in the AR15 flavor because he does not believe that anyone would want the M16 bolt carrier. :rolleyes:
C4
I don't care if they're made out of diamonds and gold, if they have Anvil on them I'll be going somewhere else.
Which is part of what I'm talking about.
If Paul Bufoni posted tomorrow telling everyone that he was making a new... hell, a new car for chrissakes, and posted the specs and why his car was so great, I'd buy it. I would take his word for it and I would buy it (assuming I needed a new car). Sight unseen, I'd buy it. Paul has proven himself over and over again to know what he's talking about, take the time to learn what he doesn't know from the right people, and the integrity to stand behind ever single thing he sells. If he decided to make a new car I am confident that he would learn every single thing there is to learn about cars and he would produce the best goddamn car anyone anywhere could produce.
Anvil is, for me, the exact opposite. Until I see hundreds of people with thousands of trouble-free rounds on these new wonder bolts, I'm staying the hell away from them.
Basically, anything that Paul at BCM says, does or sells is going to be quality and 100% accurate in its description. This is why we do business with him in large QTY and why he is one of the VERY few dealers we respect/trust in this industry.
C4
A lesson to be learned. I am sure that some people are going to flame rob and Grant for their positions. But, they have a valid point. If we settle for mediocre crap the market will continue to sell it. If what Anvil said is true about not HP testing their stuff because of the extra cost that's just ridiculous and as has been discussed here before doing an MPI without the HP is dumb.
Now the website does say that they will be offering an M16 version as well so we can be thankful. But, in the end if I were in the market for a new or another BCG I would either get an LMT, BCM or Colt. That's all there is to it. On the other hand I am sure that there will be plenty of other who don't care and they will buy them up.
SWATcop556
06-03-09, 13:54
Rob, Grant, and IG have said exactly what needs to be said. BCM, LMT, Colt, Noveske all have a proven track record of quality products and they do it all the time every time. They work hard to gather the knowledge so they can produce their "Tier 1" products. People who say we can be fanboys of these products have no need for the extensive testing done for quality parts because their guns will only see the shooting bench and the square range. That's fine.
Those of us who use our weapons every day and where we demand that they work need for these guys to do their job so we can do ours.
Anvil has a reputation for not gaining the knowledge or cutting certain corners. If his customers are ok with this then that's their choice. I choose to stick with companies who hold to the highest standard.
Rant off......:cool:
This site has always given the quality information I need about certain products/parts. I defer to the collective knowledge of the professionals who post here and the vendors they recommend.
jmart, You misquoted me. I said vendors, not manufacturers.
Try to keep things straight, please.
Mark15
Well, I do agree with you guys about quality. There is a reason my "go to" carbine is a 6920, though it will relegate its role to a 6940 in a couple of months. I also have a BCM BCG that is waiting for this month's release of the BCM midlength uppers. I have been very impressed with the quality of Paul's parts, down to his receiver extensions.
That being said, this bashing of Jon at Anvil over the bolts being MPI without HPT is not fair. Bravo bolts are MPI without HPT as well. Well, the last batch of BCGs (where I snagged mine) were HPT, but it is unclear if the HPT was before or after the MPI. Again, this is not a slight against Bravo in the least. I have one BCM upper already, will get another this month and my build plans for the future only include BCM, LaRue and maybe a Noveske. Really my biggest gripe is lower parts availability. Colt LPKs are ungodly expensive, LMT are impossible to find and the rest are shit.
Well, I do agree with you guys about quality. There is a reason my "go to" carbine is a 6920, though it will relegate its role to a 6940 in a couple of months. I also have a BCM BCG that is waiting for this month's release of the BCM midlength uppers. I have been very impressed with the quality of Paul's parts, down to his receiver extensions.
That being said, this bashing of Jon at Anvil over the bolts being MPI without HPT is not fair. Bravo bolts are MPI without HPT as well. Well, the last batch of BCGs (where I snagged mine) were HPT, but it is unclear if the HPT was before or after the MPI. Again, this is not a slight against Bravo in the least. I have one BCM upper already, will get another this month and my build plans for the future only include BCM, LaRue and maybe a Noveske. Really my biggest gripe is lower parts availability. Colt LPKs are ungodly expensive, LMT are impossible to find and the rest are shit.
Paul at BCM is so honest that he does not label his BCG's as HPT'd because a year ago he did not HPT a handful of bolt's.
There other quality LPK's out there other than the ones you mentioned.
C4
LMT are impossible to find and the rest are shit.
LMT no longer sells a complete LPK ( at least as of Nov 2008). I had a quote on them from LMT from last Spring and in Nov tried to order a few and they came back and told me they had been discontinued. Don't know if that has changed since. Theirs were also "ungodly" expensive, which is why they told me they stopped selling them -- did not sell well and their cost to assemble made it not worth it.
Chad
QuietShootr
06-03-09, 17:17
Anvil knows little to anything about the market and what is quality and what is not. For instance, he ordered the majority of the BCG's in the AR15 flavor because he does not believe that anyone would want the M16 bolt carrier. :rolleyes:
C4
Well there we go. If both you guys think it's likely shit, then I'm staying away from it.
QuietShootr
06-03-09, 17:19
A lesson to be learned. I am sure that some people are going to flame rob and Grant for their positions.
Not me. That sealed the deal for me on the anvil bolts.
Razorhunter
06-03-09, 19:05
Did you go to the anvil sight? It's explained pretty well there.
Ok, no, sorry, I had no idea "anvil" was the site. I must have missed it mentioned earlier. Thanks.
i'm not going to flame anyone for their positions, not until i know why you guys are so incredibly opposed to this guy's very existance. Think me ignorant, and maybe i missed something (been through this thread twice, now), but what makes the guy on par with sex offenders and traitors?
those BCGs dont look like crap to me. In fact, they look pretty ****in solid, if they're as advertised. But even if they are crap- why wouldn't you want people to buy them? the more people buying bushmasters and olyarms and crap BCGs, the less people buying Colts and LMTs and BCM BCGs. better availability for us. seriously. our favorite vendors and manufacturers aren't making any more money because they 6 months backordered than 4 months backordered.
so why's anvil so bad?
I see the cult of anvil has moved from TOs to this site. I never would have thought that selling people repackaged DPMS junk with a little cartoon of their choosing laser-engraved on the magwell would have clouded people's vision so thoroughly.
The issue isn't that he doesn't HPT his bolts. The issue, for me, is that his reasoning behind not doing so exposes his ignorance of the very subjects that so many claim he is knowledgeable in.
I spent a year dealing with Anvil on a "factory" SBR that I bought from them, and my experience in that year and the mentality that was exposed through the various correspondence during that process told me all I needed to know about that operation.
If the Anvil bolts turn out to be all that they claim then that's great. My experience leads me to believe that they will be less than advertised.
30 cal slut
06-04-09, 07:22
short answer on why DPMS FCG parts are crap?
Someone else making BCGs sounds like a pretty good thing to me. If you don't want to buy one, the answer is simple, and requires little effort on your part. Hell, I wouldn't buy one anytime soon either since I can get my hands on known quality BCGs for similar prices.
i'm not going to flame anyone for their positions, not until i know why you guys are so incredibly opposed to this guy's very existance. Think me ignorant, and maybe i missed something (been through this thread twice, now), but what makes the guy on par with sex offenders and traitors?
those BCGs dont look like crap to me. In fact, they look pretty ****in solid, if they're as advertised. But even if they are crap- why wouldn't you want people to buy them? the more people buying bushmasters and olyarms and crap BCGs, the less people buying Colts and LMTs and BCM BCGs. better availability for us. seriously. our favorite vendors and manufacturers aren't making any more money because they 6 months backordered than 4 months backordered.
so why's anvil so bad?
I do not know who you are responding to, but I have no issue with the owner of Anvil Arms at all. I just don't think he knows what the market is actually looking for. That's all.
C4
I do not know who you are responding to, but I have no issue with the owner of Anvil Arms at all. I just don't think he knows what the market is actually looking for. That's all.
C4
Sadly, I think he probably does know what the market as a whole is looking for. They want something flashy that looks and sounds cool at a good price point. I think people on this forum and in other small, knowledgable circles mistakenly believe that everyone else is aware of and cares about HPT, shot peening, proper gas key staking, materials selection, etc.
The reality is that most people don't and they'll buy the item from the coolest looking ad in the gun magazine as long as there are enough "tactical-sounding" features and (alleged) users listed in the ad.
People like us may be more frequent users and buyers, but in the aggregate market there are 1,000 first time buyers for every one of us. That is where people who sell 3rd rate products make their money.
I really don't see what is shaping up to be a near-certain shellacking of the congressional democrats in 10' is going to create an environment where your access to AR parts is in anyways more restricted than today.
I wish I had your confidence....
Sadly, I think he probably does know what the market as a whole is looking for. They want something flashy that looks and sounds cool at a good price point. I think people on this forum and in other small, knowledgable circles mistakenly believe that everyone else is aware of and cares about HPT, shot peening, proper gas key staking, materials selection, etc.
The reality is that most people don't and they'll buy the item from the coolest looking ad in the gun magazine as long as there are enough "tactical-sounding" features and (alleged) users listed in the ad.
People like us may be more frequent users and buyers, but in the aggregate market there are 1,000 first time buyers for every one of us. That is where people who sell 3rd rate products make their money.
All correct. As many know, G&R Tactical ONLY focuses on the high end/quality gear. This GREATLY limits our customer base. Our problem is that we use what we sell and if we do not like something (read wouldn't use it), I cannot sell it.
I have often catagorized the AR market into these groups:
1. Plinker (dirt shooter)
2. Varmint hunter (shoots 10rds a year)
3. Collector (safe queen)
4. Defensive minded shooter
All of the above are perfectly fine, but only the shooters in group 4 give a crap about the quality of their weapons. This market is VERY narrow and small, but is filled with the most people that "get it."
C4
I see the cult of anvil has moved from TOs to this site. I never would have thought that selling people repackaged DPMS junk with a little cartoon of their choosing laser-engraved on the magwell would have clouded people's vision so thoroughly.
The issue isn't that he doesn't HPT his bolts. The issue, for me, is that his reasoning behind not doing so exposes his ignorance of the very subjects that so many claim he is knowledgeable in.
I spent a year dealing with Anvil on a "factory" SBR that I bought from them, and my experience in that year and the mentality that was exposed through the various correspondence during that process told me all I needed to know about that operation.
If the Anvil bolts turn out to be all that they claim then that's great. My experience leads me to believe that they will be less than advertised.
You have me mistaken my friend, I'm of the Colt and more recently BCM cult persuasion. ;)
I'm just saying, I spent over 30 minutes talking to Jon at the shop and I believe he knows what he is talking about. He understands a Colt bolt is the top of the line and wants to create a bolt that is just as good if not better. Why he insists on 1/9 barrels, I don't know. He is not going to be selling DPMS parts, but instead his own. I would agree anyone selling re-branded DPMS is no good, but that's not the case here. He actually went into business with a machine shop, at a great expense, to start his own manufacturing company.
I of course will withhold judgment until the products are out, and I can see and test them. ;)
All correct. As many know, G&R Tactical ONLY focuses on the high end/quality gear. This GREATLY limits our customer base. Our problem is that we use what we sell and if we do not like something (read wouldn't use it), I cannot sell it.
I have often catagorized the AR market into these groups:
1. Plinker (dirt shooter)
2. Varmint hunter (shoots 10rds a year)
3. Collector (safe queen)
4. Defensive minded shooter
All of the above are perfectly fine, but only the shooters in group 4 give a crap about the quality of their weapons. This market is VERY narrow and small, but is filled with the most people that "get it."
C4
I don't know how you figured this. There are plenty of shooters in the first 3 groups who care about quality and also plenty of shooters in the forth group who are very proud of their bottom of the barrel AR all tacticooled out ready for SHTF. I suspect you mean a "defensive minded shooter" is one who takes several training classes and fires 10,000+ rounds a year. If that is the case, and they were the only ones wanting quality parts you would have seen BCM, Colt, LMT, etc piling up on shelves for years. No way all the high quality aftermarket guys making could make it either.
You have me mistaken my friend, I'm of the Colt and more recently BCM cult persuasion. ;)
I'm just saying, I spent over 30 minutes talking to Jon at the shop and I believe he knows what he is talking about. He understands a Colt bolt is the top of the line and wants to create a bolt that is just as good if not better. Why he insists on 1/9 barrels, I don't know. He is not going to be selling DPMS parts, but instead his own. I would agree anyone selling re-branded DPMS is no good, but that's not the case here. He actually went into business with a machine shop, at a great expense, to start his own manufacturing company.
I of course will withhold judgment until the products are out, and I can see and test them. ;)
The bolts he is having made (know the company) are not equal to Colt's (FYI). Also he is NOT making any parts himself, so he could very well be buying DPMS LPK's and re-badging them or buying parts from the same places that DPMS does (which is the same).
Anyone that advocates the 1/9 twist as the best choice, immediately get's the red flag.
C4
I don't know how you figured this. There are plenty of shooters in the first 3 groups who care about quality and also plenty of shooters in the forth group who are very proud of their bottom of the barrel AR all tacticooled out ready for SHTF. I suspect you mean a "defensive minded shooter" is one who takes several training classes and fires 10,000+ rounds a year. If that is the case, and they were the only ones wanting quality parts you would have seen BCM, Colt, LMT, etc piling up on shelves for years. No way all the high quality aftermarket guys making could make it either.
No, they generally care only about fit/finish and group size. Not reliability and longevity.
I "figured" this as I have been doing this for a living for a good many years. ;)
When I say "defensive minded shooters", I am talking about people that attend training classes. Yes, you can see some cheap AR's and parts, but they are often changed out after the first class (as they either broke or their realized their error).
Just because you say that you would use a weapon for home defense, does NOT make you a "defensive minded shooter."
People that do not know any better have been buying BCM and LMT because they are cheaper than a Colt and generally more available (until recently).
C4
People that do not know any better have been buying BCM and LMT because they are cheaper than a Colt and generally more available (until recently).
C4
People who don't know any better wouldn't be looking at Colt. And they wouldn't be buying $500 URGs when they could have gotten a complete AR from someone for $600-$700. Aside from some panicked shoppers recently who may have spent more than they wanting because something was in stock, people who paid the extra were generally after higher quality offered/promised by the more respected brands. Sure they may not know why, on each level, a BCM upper is better than a budget upper but that doesn't mean they don't care about quality.
People who don't know any better wouldn't be looking at Colt.
Sure they do. I get people in the store all the time with Colt's and HAVE ZERO idea about what they have. Remember that Colt's were not always as expensive as they are now.
And they wouldn't be buying $500 URGs when they could have gotten a complete AR from someone for $600-$700. Aside from some panicked shoppers recently who may have spent more than they wanting because something was in stock, people who paid the extra were generally after higher quality offered/promised by the more respected brands. Sure they may not know why, on each level, a BCM upper is better than a budget upper but that doesn't mean they don't care about quality.
People are generally drawn to LMT and BCM because you can buy the uppers and lowers seperate (avoiding the 11% FET). Couple that with that fact that they can break the sales up into several seperate purchases and still get a "complete" weapon from one manufacturer (which appeals to many). Granted many a dirt shooter that reads this forum will be swayed heavily towards a quality AR so that they can be on the "cool kids" even though they will NEVER attend a shooting school.
C4
militarymoron
06-04-09, 16:26
i just talked this morning to a friend who recently went on a tour of the colt factory - both the 'civvie' side and colt defense; and asked him what parts he saw being made in-house. if i had asked him before he went, he'd have paid more attention, but those that he remembered seeing on the CNC machines in various states of manufacture were lowers, uppers, bolts, carriers, and barrels. colt has investmented heavily in huge CNC machines that do large batches - something that is evident of their intention to stay in manufacturing instead of moving toward just being an assembler.
I agree with Grant. I have guys over here who argue with me as to why THEIR Rock River Arms or Bushmaster is the best thing since sliced bread and peanut butter. Then when I point out that they more than likely do not have a 5.56 chamber, they have a 1/9 twist barrel, use different barrel steel, no HP/ MPI testing they respond- "so what my gun shoots just fine". One guy told me that Colts are crap and they always jammed on him when he was in the Corps. Then I had to explain to him that maintenance usually not done until something breaks and that using good magazines goes a long way to eliminating many of those issues.
These are guys that carry guns over here daily for their job. Most of those guys don't have a clue. I spent a lot time trying to educate them and make them understand, but often times it falls on deaf ears. Sadly many of them are in a position that they can drop 1500-2000.00 on a rifle and not think twice about it.
People who don't know any better wouldn't be looking at Colt. And they wouldn't be buying $500 URGs when they could have gotten a complete AR from someone for $600-$700. Aside from some panicked shoppers recently who may have spent more than they wanting because something was in stock, people who paid the extra were generally after higher quality offered/promised by the more respected brands. Sure they may not know why, on each level, a BCM upper is better than a budget upper but that doesn't mean they don't care about quality.
CTBuilder1
06-04-09, 16:49
i just talked this morning to a friend who recently went on a tour of the colt factory - both the 'civvie' side and colt defense; and asked him what parts he saw being made in-house. if i had asked him before he went, he'd have paid more attention, but those that he remembered seeing on the CNC machines in various states of manufacture were lowers, uppers, bolts, carriers, and barrels. colt has investmented heavily in huge CNC machines that do large batches - something that is evident of their intention to stay in manufacturing instead of moving toward just being an assembler.
With all the machine capacity between Colt and Colt Canada it's hard to believe that they are only making 6 parts. I guess either they enjoy making payments on machines that aren't running or more likely they make all parts, minus a few pins and springs, in house.
i just talked this morning to a friend who recently went on a tour of the colt factory - both the 'civvie' side and colt defense; and asked him what parts he saw being made in-house. if i had asked him before he went, he'd have paid more attention, but those that he remembered seeing on the CNC machines in various states of manufacture were lowers, uppers, bolts, carriers, and barrels. colt has investmented heavily in huge CNC machines that do large batches - something that is evident of their intention to stay in manufacturing instead of moving toward just being an assembler.
Anybody can buy CNC machines and machine lots of parts. The reason Colt makes superior and consistent parts is that they also have the in-house ability to fire proof loads and MP inspect the appropriate parts and they have government contracts (and thus government inspectors crawling up their butts).
But you are correct that they do in fact make nearly everything in-house, contrary to all of the rumor and babble out there about Colt being "just like ______ and buying parts from X."
QuietShootr
06-04-09, 17:34
Sadly, I think he probably does know what the market as a whole is looking for. They want something flashy that looks and sounds cool at a good price point. I think people on this forum and in other small, knowledgable circles mistakenly believe that everyone else is aware of and cares about HPT, shot peening, proper gas key staking, materials selection, etc.
The reality is that most people don't and they'll buy the item from the coolest looking ad in the gun magazine as long as there are enough "tactical-sounding" features and (alleged) users listed in the ad.
People like us may be more frequent users and buyers, but in the aggregate market there are 1,000 first time buyers for every one of us. That is where people who sell 3rd rate products make their money.
Yup. The junk market is much larger than the market for premium stuff. How many DPMS rifles get sold vs. LMTs? How many Colt or LMT LPKs vs. gun show bin shit?
QuietShootr
06-04-09, 17:36
All correct. As many know, G&R Tactical ONLY focuses on the high end/quality gear. This GREATLY limits our customer base. Our problem is that we use what we sell and if we do not like something (read wouldn't use it), I cannot sell it.
I have often catagorized the AR market into these groups:
1. Plinker (dirt shooter)
2. Varmint hunter (shoots 10rds a year)
3. Collector (safe queen)
4. Defensive minded shooter
All of the above are perfectly fine, but only the shooters in group 4 give a crap about the quality of their weapons. This market is VERY narrow and small, but is filled with the most people that "get it."
C4
http://thatradio.podhoster.com/media/images/bigstockphoto_hammer_striking_nail_w_sparks_333329.jpg
I agree with Grant. I have guys over here who argue with me as to why THEIR Rock River Arms or Bushmaster is the best thing since sliced bread and peanut butter. Then when I point out that they more than likely do not have a 5.56 chamber, they have a 1/9 twist barrel, use different barrel steel, no HP/ MPI testing they respond- "so what my gun shoots just fine". One guy told me that Colts are crap and they always jammed on him when he was in the Corps. Then I had to explain to him that maintenance usually not done until something breaks and that using good magazines goes a long way to eliminating many of those issues.
These are guys that carry guns over here daily for their job. Most of those guys don't have a clue. I spent a lot time trying to educate them and make them understand, but often times it falls on deaf ears. Sadly many of them are in a position that they can drop 1500-2000.00 on a rifle and not think twice about it.
It doesn't sound like you agree with Grant. Grant's generalization is if you've had training you buy the best stuff and if not you only care to buy junk, although that group may buy good stuff if they're trying to be cool or if they do it by accident.
I not trying to be difficult, just pointing out that these generalizations have a lot of flaws. FUDDs may buy really good stuff and guys who should know better and need the best stuff may buy crap to get by.
I was taken out of context. :D
It doesn't sound like you agree with Grant. Grant's generalization is if you've had training you buy the best stuff and if not you only care to buy junk, although that group may buy good stuff if they're trying to be cool or if they do it by accident.
I not trying to be difficult, just pointing out that these generalizations have a lot of flaws. FUDDs may buy really good stuff and guys who should know better and need the best stuff may buy crap to get by.
I agree with Grant. I have guys over here who argue with me as to why THEIR Rock River Arms or Bushmaster is the best thing since sliced bread and peanut butter. Then when I point out that they more than likely do not have a 5.56 chamber, they have a 1/9 twist barrel, use different barrel steel, no HP/ MPI testing they respond- "so what my gun shoots just fine". One guy told me that Colts are crap and they always jammed on him when he was in the Corps. Then I had to explain to him that maintenance usually not done until something breaks and that using good magazines goes a long way to eliminating many of those issues.
There are so many of those guys on arf it is really becoming annoying. Really, really, really annoying. CTbuilder1, myself and a couple other posters have to dispel the bullshit day in and day out. There is one guy in particular that truly believes RRA builds the best AR-15 you can buy. :rolleyes:
Heavy Metal
06-04-09, 18:20
Thats because that type posts for validation, not information. And then you show them the facts (Rob's Chart) and they react like Dracula laid to rest on a crucifix-shaped silver tanning bed with a garlic-scented liner.
CTBuilder1
06-04-09, 19:17
Thats because that type posts for validation, not information. And then you show them the facts (Rob's Chart) and they react like Dracula laid to rest on a crucifix-shaped silver tanning bed with a garlic-scented liner.
The chart doesn't go over well in other places. I find it to be a pretty helpful tool though. But I find any time you try and make a logical point and use facts to explain why Colt, LMT, [insert T1 brand here] is better than Brand X you are dismissed as a kool-aid drinker.
militarymoron
06-04-09, 20:10
The reason Colt makes superior and consistent parts is that they also have the in-house ability to fire proof loads and MP inspect the appropriate parts and they have government contracts (and thus government inspectors crawling up their butts).
the firing range with several lanes was one of the things of interest that he mentioned, where rifles were being test fired. he shot the SCW (sub-compact weapon) and thought it was pretty cool.
hey guys,
you do realize that you could have some of the best parts available
in probably a week or so, often less, in fact.
don't you?
CTBuilder1
06-04-09, 21:27
hey guys,
you do realize that you could have some of the best parts available
in probably a week or so, often less, in fact.
don't you?
What?
The chart doesn't go over well in other places. I find it to be a pretty helpful tool though. But I find any time you try and make a logical point and use facts to explain why Colt, LMT, [insert T1 brand here] is better than Brand X you are dismissed as a kool-aid drinker.
It really is ridiculous. It amazes me how some people can look at the chart and then laugh it off, while calling us names.
CaptainDooley
06-05-09, 08:49
I just love how when you mention it other places - showing empirical evidence that a particular weapon is subpar you have guys crawling out of the wood work to tell you how awesome their statistical sample of one is. Or my current favorite response:
There is an add in my Guns & Ammo mag for DPMS that says, "Professional Shooters Trust DPMS." Then there are some names:
Tony Holmes
James Darst
Jim Clark Jr.
Dave Neth
Deb Cheek
Bruce Piatt
Tate Moots
Now I have no idea who these people are but if they are professional shooters and they choose DPMS how could the guns suck???? I want to like these guns cause they are made close to me and I think it would be cool to buy local and they are actually in stock at my local store. But it seems there is so much on the internet saying how these guns are crap...
hey guys,
you do realize that you could have some of the best parts available
in probably a week or so, often less, in fact.
don't you?
No, I was unaware of that.
C4
I just love how when you mention it other places - showing empirical evidence that a particular weapon is subpar you have guys crawling out of the wood work to tell you how awesome their statistical sample of one is. Or my current favorite response:
Holy shit, where in the bloody hell did you see that one posted?
No, I was unaware of that.
C4
You didn't know RRA and DPMS were the top of the line?
CaptainDooley
06-05-09, 09:21
Holy shit, where in the bloody hell did you see that one posted?
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-rifles-shotgun-discussion/77902-dpms-panther-15-5-56nato-sportical.html
I've just about quit posting in any rifle topics that mention ARs... I try to help a guy out before he buys and I just get jumped on by every low tier fanboy on there...
Jay Cunningham
06-05-09, 09:23
This thread is straying out of the realm of the technical; if it continues in that fashion I will close it.
i just talked this morning to a friend who recently went on a tour of the colt factory - both the 'civvie' side and colt defense; and asked him what parts he saw being made in-house. if i had asked him before he went, he'd have paid more attention, but those that he remembered seeing on the CNC machines in various states of manufacture were lowers, uppers, bolts, carriers, and barrels. colt has investmented heavily in huge CNC machines that do large batches - something that is evident of their intention to stay in manufacturing instead of moving toward just being an assembler.
That would be about 6-7 parts then.
C4
I agree with Grant. I have guys over here who argue with me as to why THEIR Rock River Arms or Bushmaster is the best thing since sliced bread and peanut butter. Then when I point out that they more than likely do not have a 5.56 chamber, they have a 1/9 twist barrel, use different barrel steel, no HP/ MPI testing they respond- "so what my gun shoots just fine". One guy told me that Colts are crap and they always jammed on him when he was in the Corps. Then I had to explain to him that maintenance usually not done until something breaks and that using good magazines goes a long way to eliminating many of those issues.
These are guys that carry guns over here daily for their job. Most of those guys don't have a clue. I spent a lot time trying to educate them and make them understand, but often times it falls on deaf ears. Sadly many of them are in a position that they can drop 1500-2000.00 on a rifle and not think twice about it.
Trigger pullers tend to know LITTLE to nothing about AR's (am talking about the HLSD types). There are exceptions and a good many of them are on this forum.
Heck, there are a lot of "famous" instructors out there that know nothing about how AR's are built, what quality is, etc.
C4
Anybody can buy CNC machines and machine lots of parts. The reason Colt makes superior and consistent parts is that they also have the in-house ability to fire proof loads and MP inspect the appropriate parts and they have government contracts (and thus government inspectors crawling up their butts).
But you are correct that they do in fact make nearly everything in-house, contrary to all of the rumor and babble out there about Colt being "just like ______ and buying parts from X."
We have seen the orders Colt has with outside sources. Colt does NOT make every part in house.
C4
It doesn't sound like you agree with Grant. Grant's generalization is if you've had training you buy the best stuff and if not you only care to buy junk, although that group may buy good stuff if they're trying to be cool or if they do it by accident.
I not trying to be difficult, just pointing out that these generalizations have a lot of flaws. FUDDs may buy really good stuff and guys who should know better and need the best stuff may buy crap to get by.
Actually, you have missed "Grant's" point. Just because someone "attends" a shooting school, does not mean that they AUTOMATICALLY know anything. It takes quite a few schools (taught by quality instructors) before people START to get a clue. The other reason that a new training student MIGHT buy quality is because the POS item went down in the school and they had to replace it.
Having attended a lot of basic 101 carbine schools, I can promise you that there is a lot of crap guns, gear and ammo in them.
The biggest group of people that "should know better, but buy junk" are cops. They do not make a lot of money and also get into the mentality that they will NEVER have to use a weapon while on duty. Couple these two things together and is why you see them with some of the worst AR's out there.
C4
hey joe,
your "double reverse" sarcasm is misplaced.
how did you come up with those two manufacturers?
i avoid sarcasm personally.
there is a boatload of precise accurate information here on m4carbine.net
i would like to thank C4 for sharing the parts he has available with us by listing them on his site. i never have to wait more than a week for them. of course, one doesn't ask a friend for something he doesn't have. much less demand it.
in my attempt to identify and assist the "thinkers" on board here i might seem a bit cryptic, but i can assure you , i avoid sarcasm.
you have sufficiently self identified
read every thread in the technical and general forums and you will find what i am talking about.
We have seen the orders Colt has with outside sources. Colt does NOT make every part in house.
I never claimed they made every part in house. They do (or have at one time or another) made just about every part, however. They were making complete guns long before the flooded market we have now.
I'm also not claiming that all of their guns are made exclusively from the in house part or that they don't get categories of parts - even ones they make themselves - from other vendors. They do, but those parts are put through the same QC as their in house parts before they are used. That is a big piece of where this "parts is parts" fallacy comes from. Many people will say that X "makes parts for Colt," and that may be true, but it doesn't mean that those pieces are scrutinized the same way that Colt scrutinizes them.
militarymoron
06-05-09, 14:31
That would be about 6-7 parts then.
C4
at the very least. that's what he saw from where he was. it should not be taken to imply that what he saw on that part of the manufacturing floor is all there was. he was taking in rows of machines vs. looking at what each individual one was making.
plastic parts are outsourced.
For me unless I purchased the parts new from the manufacturer or a reputable dealer then I do not trust them at all, no matter how good of a deal it seems.
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