View Full Version : DPMS accuracy
HelloMcFly
06-02-09, 18:16
Hi Guys. This is my first post (and first AR). I have a DPMS panther lite, 16" bbl A1 config. I got these groups at 50 yards using a 20 year old Aimpoint 3000 on top of the carry handle; PMC cheap practice ammo. The bottom right group was the best of the day. I think the red dot is actually about 2 MOA, which is bigger than the best group by a fair amount. Based on this, once I get some glass with magnification, should I expect sub MOA from this barrel? Tell me what you think!
Hey, welcome to the board.
This site is a fantastic place to learn about the M4/AR weapons system. Especially the "top tier" rifles. (See the chart located somewhere here)
There might not be a lot of guys here who know much about DPMS.
I know a good bit about DPMS, however I won't promise you that this is a good thing.
DPMS actualy has some very accurate barrels. However Accuracy is not always the same as quality. I have had two barrels personally that were out of spec. Every time they were fired I would get a bulge around the base of the bullet and many times it would stick and need to be extracted manually.
http://homepage.mac.com/kwelz/.Pictures/badbullet.jpg
Barrel are 1/9 twist and not Chrome lined by default. They often defend themselves saying that this is an option. I personally think it should be the norm, not the exception. Especially on M4 barrels.
In addition I worked for a good sized DPMS distributor. Normal orders for us were in the hundreds. We would often get complaints about things. Broken stocks, etc, etc. Most were minor things but it brings into question the overall level of QC they have.
It matters far less whose name is stamped on the side of the lower reciever as to what you can do with it. Good shooting!
HelloMcFly
06-04-09, 18:55
I sensed before posting that many members would have strong (low) opinions about the less expensive manufacturers. My next AR will be my own build, but this first time opportunity for an AR was the right deal at the right time. Possible shortcomings aside, I must say that...so far this rifle ROCKS...no malfunctions and great performance. I will eventually start swapping parts on it, too, 'cause I really don't care for that permanent carry handle. More to the point....whaddaya' think?...can I probably get some good groups at 100+ yards with decent glass on top of it, if 1/2" or less at 50 yards is now happening on a regular basis? Mathematically I think so, but I have not had to chance to try at that distance yet.
The problem lies in consistency. Some work, some don't.
"Do you feel lucky?"
Mark15
I had a similar experience with a brand new DPMS rifle in .308 two years ago. Extremely rough barrel. In fact, the first patch through the barrel required a mallet to drive it, and it and came out shredded. I kid you not. Best 10 shot group at 35 yards from a concrete benchrest using a Bald Eagle front rest + rear bag, 36x Leupold BR scope, and shooting Federal Gold Match ammo was 11". DPMS replaced the barrel, without comment, but only after I showed them irrefutable documented evidence. Friends with DPMS rifles have much better luck, but this inexcusable, serious QC screw-up has soured me on DPMS. :mad:
KYPD
I had a dpms which I paid $725 otd with a few spare mags to boot! It was accurate and reliable, though I only put about 3k rds tru it mostly wolf and brown bear. I sold it for a very handsome profit, not because there was anything wrong with the gun, financial reasons only. Picked up a Daniel Defense M4 when it first came out and even an inexperienced newcomer like me could notice the difference, I sold it also because my neighbor offerred me $500 more than what I paid for it so that was gone too...now all I have is a S&W mp15 and a colt 6920 but those I'm keeping :p !
HelloMcFly
06-04-09, 20:17
It would be nice if someone would just answer the original question, IMHO. Look, i know how everyone feels about the brand, that's painfully obvious... lets just pretend it's not about that and look at the picture in the first post, if that's not tooooo much to ask...
I guess I'll find out for myself at the range next week. Excuse me for being frustrated, but the whole DPMS/Oly/Crapbrand-of-the-Month bashing is tiresome. There are lots of threads dedicated to that, I was just asking a simple question.
"Arguing on the internet is like running a race in the special olympics (there's that @#$% OLY word again:p)...even if you win, you're still retarded!"
Accuracy expectations are tough to comment on, but I'll try.
Any weapon will have a few loads that it will prefer to others. I would try out a few different brands, as well as bullet weights, and make notes as to what works best in your particular rifle. If you want to get the most accuracy possible from your weapon you will likely want to hand load.
If you are capable of shooting sub MOA (not the rifle, but you). The rifle will probably not hold you back. DPMS has received its share of complaints, but there have also been some nice reviews on their products over the years.
Optics will be another concern you will want to consider. If you want to consistently shoot sub MOA groups at 100 yds you will probably want to invest in a good scope and mount. You don't have to spend $1K to get a decent scope, but you will want an optic that has a reticule that obscures less of the target that a 2, 4 or 8 MOA dot or donut reticule.
As for the DPMS, Oly stuff, just try to ignore it. Everyone has their favorites and as well as the brands they like to bash. Enjoy what you have and if you decide to try something different down the road that is OK too.
Happy shooting and congrats on the new rifle,
T
HelloMcFly
06-04-09, 20:43
Thanks. Nice to hear from someone sensible, who actually reads the posts and answers them. I have a Desert Eagle .50 10" bbl. with a Leupold 4X pistol scope on top. I absolutely love it and have taken numerous deer with it at 50 to 100 yards (never loses its zero either and that gun is PUNISHING to shoot), so I am leaning toward that brand for a rifle scope. Should be OK, I would think. Your thoughts?
Chrome lining does not improve accuracy in anyway. It is only there to help protect the barrel. For the most part it would actually decrease your accuracy.
DPMS uses quality barrels. One of the few things they do use that are quality. If you take care of it, it won't break. Seems like their newer BCG's are looking a lot better then the older ones.
MPI/Shot peening is useless in my opinion, but others will tell you different on here.
Leupy makes nice optics. The 4x would be fine or the new Mark AR 3-9x is around $300. My personal favorite for medium range optics is the Mueller TacII 3-10x. It's very durable, holds and returns to zero well, very crisp picture and can be found in the $250-$270 range. I believe they have a lifetime warranty, but I've never had one go bad.
T
HelloMcFly
06-04-09, 21:17
Very good. Thanks for the input. I will check into Mueller. I do want something fairly compact with magnification out to 9 or 10x....might go flattop first, though, before putting a real scope on it.
I should have re-read your original post "A1". My mistake. I was thinking flat-top when I replied. I'm sure what ever solution you come up with will work just fine.
Best of luck,
T
I have very minimal experience with the DPMS brand, therefore I will make no comments on it's reliability or build quality.
Based on your statements, I would think it reasonable to expect similar accuracy at 100yds, and possibly tighter groups with the aid of magnified optics.
I think Leupy makes very nice optics ans that you would be very well served by one of their scopes.
-RD62
I think Leupy makes very nice optics ans that you would be very well served by one of their scopes.
-RD62
I agree. And the prices aren't that steep.
My first AR was/is a DPMS. It ran nice tight groups with decent ammo. It probably has more than 3k rounds through it, no issues. If it runs, it runs, and if it is accurate, it is accurate. Don't sweat it. I would expect you will see some really good groups with some of the lighter Black Hills loadings. (52gr match HP, especially.)
Hi Guys. This is my first post (and first AR). I have a DPMS panther lite, 16" bbl A1 config. I got these groups at 50 yards using a 20 year old Aimpoint 3000 on top of the carry handle; PMC cheap practice ammo. The bottom right group was the best of the day. I think the red dot is actually about 2 MOA, which is bigger than the best group by a fair amount. Based on this, once I get some glass with magnification, should I expect sub MOA from this barrel? Tell me what you think!
For measuring groups, you generally want to use AT LEAST 5 shot's. Do that 4-5 times and take an average. Also, shoot groups at 100yds (50yds does not matter).
I would exect sub-moa performance.
C4
MPI/Shot peening is useless in my opinion, but others will tell you different on here.
What?
Chrome lining does not improve accuracy in anyway. It is only there to help protect the barrel. For the most part it would actually decrease your accuracy.
DPMS uses quality barrels. One of the few things they do use that are quality. If you take care of it, it won't break. Seems like their newer BCG's are looking a lot better then the older ones.
MPI/Shot peening is useless in my opinion, but others will tell you different on here.
What is the definition of "quality barrel?"
I am also not aware of how looks have anything to due with longevity/reliability (in regards to BCG quality).
HPT/MPI is far from useless and IS the current .gov standard.
C4
What?
What is the definition of "quality barrel?"
I am also not aware of how looks have anything to due with longevity/reliability (in regards to BCG quality).
HPT/MPI is far from useless and IS the current .gov standard.
C4
Looks? Their staking has been better. The last few I've seen didn't look like an idiot took a nice wack at a sharp solid object and called the indent it made staking.
A quality barrel would be one you don't hear people having much trouble with.
As for the HPT/MPI it is not useful in hardly anyway. Shot peening you could argue to be, but scientifically it is not. I've never seen physical proof that either are better. If you have it I would love to read it, and would greatly appreciate it! It would make me feel a bit better about the money I've spent on my parts. :)
Magnetic particle testing only find defects on the surface. It does so because steel is ferromagnetic and the "lines" of magnetization applied in the MT process will concentrate at ALL discontinunities on the SURFACE. This includes all holes, lug corners and any other edges. Such indications are NORMAL. MT's only value here is finding defects on the relatively flat surfaces like the cam pin hole web.
It cannot find defects located deep in the material. And that includes defects in the center of the cam pin hole web, a HIGHLY stressed area. Defects in other areas outside of the lugs and bolt face.
Now, specifications for the military are "written in blood". The MT specification (MT is the proper NDT term, Magnaflux is a trademark process and MPI is military) arose out of the early life of the M16, material science has progressed to make such testing unnecessary IF the proper material is utilized. But if the letter of the TDI is followed, lesser materials and specifically poor processing WILL make life short for any bolt.
ASNT is the most recognized authority in such matters. My experience dealing with ASNT level IIIs with regards to MT and UT is the basis of my judgement and I have had them run MT, PT, RT and UT on some bolts. Their judgements were PT is by far the best NDT for both bolts and carriers due to geometry.
Now for the materials engineering. Bolts with significant defects that are missed by NDT will fail in a very low cycle fatigue regime. That is 1-100 rounds. The failed part's fracture line will show the defect, usually just below the surface along with large areas of ductile faliure.
Bolts which fail in the 101-5000 round counts which fail do not do so from any INDICATABLE defect but from MATERIAL FATIGUE. These failures are noted by the absence of any ductile failure. This is typical low cycle fatigue in the hardened steels used in firearms.
The most common fracture point is the web of the cam pin hole. The most common problem is severity of quench. This is not anything that can be detected by MT/MPI. Buy quality, not specifications.
Now for the other section of materials engineering. Shot peening. This WILL help by turning the surfaces peened into a material having residual compressive stress. This MUST happen before the heat treatment but the process of heat treatment also involves carburizing the surface of the steel. When the steel is above the austentic point, its structure changes from face centered cubic to body centered cubic, slightly increasing the volume which "opens up" the surface to absorb carbon. When this happens, a slight increase in packing factor which when the metal cools, negates the compressive stress imparted by shot peening. The net effect? Nil.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=413742
Derek_Connor
06-05-09, 13:01
CkMark - while I tend to agree w/you on some points about MPI/HPT and I could careless if the Gov't requests it, quoting someone else on another board (unless that is yourself you are quoting?) is hardly first hand knowledge.
Have you had the time to verify those statements you quoted?
This link is in the thread on ar15.com
http://www.asnt.org/ndt/primer1.htm
Looks? Their staking has been better. The last few I've seen didn't look like an idiot took a nice wack at a sharp solid object and called the indent it made staking.
Better? Out of the handful you have seen? How bout they do it perfect EVERY TIME!
A quality barrel would be one you don't hear people having much trouble with.
Really? What is the definition of "trouble?" If it is sitting in the safe not bothering anyone would that be classified as not causing any trouble???? Of those people that do not have any "trouble", how many of them actually use their AR??
As for the HPT/MPI it is not useful in hardly anyway.
How would you know? Are you a manufacturer that has captured the data on how many bolts have failed MP (after being HPT'd)??? In case you were not aware, it is the current .Mil standard and until something better comes along, it is how bolts are to be done.
Shot peening you could argue to be, but scientifically it is not. I've never seen physical proof that either are better.
You have never seen it do any harm either, but just decided that it was not needed???? There is a purpose for shot peening and is called out in the TDP.
Please do not link info from BARFCOM. Argue YOUR OWN FIRST HAND INFORMATION about what you are talking about. Reciting what someone else said is of little use to us on this forum.
C4
You have no information to prove it otherwise. It would take a fairly decent chunk of change to gather scientific information on this subject anyways.
I've seen plenty of manufacturers say that MPI/HPT is not useful.
Just because its military standard doesn't make it good, they have plenty of ridiculous standards.
This is offtopic anyway. He asked about the barrel anyway, I stated my opinion. Everyone has their own.
You have no information to prove it otherwise. It would take a fairly decent chunk of change to gather scientific information on this subject anyways.
Yes I actually do. I know why shot peening is called out in the TDP (for instance).
I've seen plenty of manufacturers say that MPI/HPT is not useful.
So have I. These are companies that either do NOT understand the TDP or do not want the added expense of going through the process. ;)
I would suggest that you stop talking to companies that know nothing about the TDP and talk to ones that do (and have .Mil contracts).
Just because its military standard doesn't make it good, they have plenty of ridiculous standards.
This is where you are showing your lack of knowledge. The .Mil standard is NOT the highest quality there is. Quite the opposite. Having been in the Military and then worked procurement/awarding contracts, I can assure you that the Military does what it takes to just get by (read lowest quality that will still function).
So if what the TDP (.Mil spec) calls out is the ENTRY/BASIC quality standard that is acceptable, then what does that make stuff produced by DPMS, RRA, BM, Oly, etc that do NOT come anywhere near the .Mil Spec?????????
Just to make it clear for you, I DO NOT view the TDP as the end all be all standard. Unfortunately, only 1 or 2 companies are even trying to improve upon the TDP. So until companies start producing products that are ABOVE what the TDP calls out, the TDP will remain as the STANDARD!
You are entitled to your opinion, but please try and back it up with facts that are based on FIRST hand knowledge. We would also hope that you have had more than one or two experiences with something before trying to pass it off as fact (especially on this forum).
C4
thespyhunter
06-05-09, 14:07
ckmark -
I would stand down if I were you
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 16:23
Interesting how this discussion has mutated from its original intent and devolved, again.
Derek_Connor
06-05-09, 16:36
Interesting how this discussion has mutated from its original intent and devolved....once again, please refer to the quote below. Repeat as often as necessary.
:rolleyes:
I am sure people in this industry who have special needs children appreciate the reference.
How original, last bastion of the unimaginative.
Something reeks of trolling
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 16:51
Good point, I am dropping the reference now. Sorry, I just get really pissed at the way some people turn these discussions in their own private crusade against noobs, or the brands they like to denigrate.
Good point, I am dropping the reference now. Sorry, I just get really pissed at the way some people turn these discussions in their own private crusade against noobs, or the brands they like to denigrate.
The errornet is full of incorrect/mis-information. Some of it was posted in this thread. M4C is not one of those forums that will allow false information to be spread by people that really do not know what they are talking about.
If you find that offensive, then you might be on the wrong forum.
C4
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 17:26
I find elitism offensive, not facts. I see alot of both here, sometimes it's not so easy to tell the difference.
And arrogance is never convincing:p, imho...
These threads get to be annoying. First off, it has been pointed out that your method of gaging accuracy is flawed. DPMS is what it is. Spend some time reading around here rather than criticizing. Many of us take our weapons, ammo and gear seriously.
I am glad that you are happy with your DPMS, enjoy it. If you really wanted an accurate target rifle why didn't you just buy one, instead of expecting some miracle from a plain jane rifle?
I find elitism offensive, not facts. I see alot of both here, sometimes it's not so easy to tell the difference.
And arrogance is never convincing:p, imho...
I find elitism offensive, not facts. I see alot of both here, sometimes it's not so easy to tell the difference.
And arrogance is never convincing:p, imho...
Your safe then as there has been ZERO "elitism" here. Only the truth. For whatever reason, people often confuse the two.
I am also not here to convince you of anything. I am just here to make sure the truth is known.
For the record, I do not own and most likely will never own a Colt. ;)
C4
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 17:43
I think you missed my point...it started as a simple question and turned into another cluster f#$...I explained myself and my purchase, just wanted some friendly feedback...not a lecture from all the "experts" about why I made a bad choice, blah blah blah. I am sure I will have a target rifle at some point, but I just thought a few shared opinions on my experience thus far would be positive. If in doubt, actually read the posts before answering...
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 17:45
Iraq-guy:
I think you missed my point...it started as a simple question and turned into another cluster f#$...I explained myself and my purchase, just wanted some friendly feedback...not a lecture from all the "experts" about why I made a bad choice, blah blah blah. I am sure I will have a target rifle at some point, but I just thought a few shared opinions on my experience thus far would be positive. If in doubt, actually read the posts before answering...
Grant:
Thanks for that. You did come down kinda heavy, and I am not responsive to that.
I guess we are no longer discussing “DPMS Accuracy” and somehow made the change to “What is offensive for $500”. This started because a users signature line contained the word “retarded” and yet no effort has been made to get back to the original topic so here goes...
Softening the language does not somehow change the condition. It may make it easier for individuals to cope with their situation, but it doesn't change it. My father is in his 80's and is suffering from dementia, which is nothing more than a synonym for “insanity” and “madness”. I assure you that putting a softer label on his condition does not make it any easier for any of the family when it's time to change his diaper, remind him that year is 2009 and WWII has been over for quite some time or take the time to reintroduce yourself to your own parent.
As for "special needs" that is a cop out for people who find "retarded" distasteful or offensive, however accurate it may be. Merriam-Webster defines retarded as "slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development or academic progress". I have also seen the definition listed as "to be held back...". Race cars used to use a device called an "ignition retard switch", which allowed the ignition timing to be adjusted plus or minus some degree of top dead center for finer tuning of an engine in different operating conditions.
I find it far more harmful for a society to bastardize the language and turn the word "special" into into meaning something other than:
1: distinguished by some unusual quality ; especially : being in some way superior.
2: held in particular esteem.
If your child is "retarded" changing the description to "special needs" does not suddenly turn his "hockey helmet" into a "thinking cap" and as for the members of our society that have become reflexively offended by any word they do not view as a compliment I suggest you get your own hockey helmet, since you are obviously of "limited intellectual or emotional development", and struggling “intellectually” and “emotionally” to cope with the reality of your situation.
Instead of commenting on the authors signature, would your time not have been better spent addressing the content of hist post. Which if I read it correctly was trying to redirect the discussion back to the original subject of this topic “DPMS Accuracy”.
If anyone finds this post offensive, tough.
T
I think you missed my point...it started as a simple question and turned into another cluster f#$...I explained myself and my purchase, just wanted some friendly feedback...not a lecture from all the "experts" about why I made a bad choice, blah blah blah. I am sure I will have a target rifle at some point, but I just thought a few shared opinions on my experience thus far would be positive. If in doubt, actually read the posts before answering...
You also got your question answered fully. You are not shooting at the right distance to get an accurate idea and you are shooting too few rounds.
If you like your DPMS, then great. I am sure it will fit your needs perfectly.
C4
I didn't miss the point. Some of us actually try to educate others and stop them from buying garbage. If we can't stop them from doing so then we can at least point out the problems and hopefully they will get corrected.
If people stop buying crap weapons and dealers shelves start to pile up, just maybe the manufacturers who makes said crap will get the message and start producing worthy weapons.
Iraq-guy:
I think you missed my point...it started as a simple question and turned into another cluster f#$...I explained myself and my purchase, just wanted some friendly feedback...not a lecture from all the "experts" about why I made a bad choice, blah blah blah. I am sure I will have a target rifle at some point, but I just thought a few shared opinions on my experience thus far would be positive. If in doubt, actually read the posts before answering...
Grant:
Thanks for that. You did come down kinda heavy, and I am not responsive to that.
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 18:11
Since I do already own it, what do you suggest. Forget about it and dump it for something better?
I apologize for getting your thread off topic.
I will agree with Grant that you can NEVER trust DPMS's quality control. I've just seen a lot of their rifles that have been recently purchased by locals looking better built then older ones.
As for what you should do to your AR, it depends on how you want it. Everyone sets up theirs in certain ways that fit their needs. I would personally recommend making sure your BCG is correct, and even if it is you might want to go ahead and get a quality one. I said I don't think MPI/Shot peening is that useful, but I do know what good machining and quality control is and DPMS sure doesn't have that. But you don't need to dump it.
Other then that, get comfortable with your rifle, and spend some money on ammo when its available. Training course > Range time > *
Since I do already own it, what do you suggest. Forget about it and dump it for something better?
Never sell an AR (unless you have too). Understand what makes an AR reliable and go about upgrading some parts.
As things wear out (naturally) like springs, replace them with better ones. DPMS AR's tend to be over gased so run atleast and H buffer in it (or H2). Upgrade the extractor insert to a black one and maybe a Crane O-Ring (check out the BCM Bolt upgrade kits).
C4
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 18:35
I have no illusions about the rifle. Lets start there. T is the only one that seems to understand that.
It is what it is. But it will be the first of many (don't tell my wife I said that), and a good starting point. For all I knew when I bought it, I could have decided that I am not into it, but I am hooked...it was more of an experiment than anything else. And now I am here.
Even though I am a noob to this site, I have been shooting and gunsmithing for 36 years, so I smell BS from a lot of the so called heavies at this forum. If you want to give an opinion, do so politely and without arrogance. Or I won't take you seriously at all...ever. Otherwise...hmmmmmm..I better hold back (and STFU as one of them told me). I have better things to do than argue on the computer, and you should, too.
I apologize for getting your thread off topic.
I will agree with Grant that you can NEVER trust DPMS's quality control. I've just seen a lot of their rifles that have been recently purchased by locals looking better built then older ones.
As for what you should do to your AR, it depends on how you want it. Everyone sets up theirs in certain ways that fit their needs. I would personally recommend making sure your BCG is correct, and even if it is you might want to go ahead and get a quality one. I said I don't think MPI/Shot peening is that useful, but I do know what good machining and quality control is and DPMS sure doesn't have that. But you don't need to dump it.
Other then that, get comfortable with your rifle, and spend some money on ammo when its available. Training course > Range time > *
Manufacturers (like DPMS) have periods where they will do lots of things right. The main thing I look at when trying to decide if an AR is quality or not is the size of the gas port (as they will always become larger), how well the BCG is built and the chambering. Everything else is just bonus.
See we can agree on things. ;)
C4
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 18:38
And thanks, Grant, too. Sorry I jabbed at you in the other thread. Thought the original post was about a noob wanting a SW. I think they are high quality. But what the hell do I know? Everyone else jumped in and I was marginalized for entertainment.
If it were me, I would acquire another and then sell it. Chalk it up to a learning experience. If you don't want to do that then I would do what Grant suggested. Additionally I would get another barrel, and a good bolt. Or see if you can find a good upper (possibly Noveske N4 light upper from BCM) and then sell the one you have. I would also put a MILSPEC lower receiver extension on there as well.
I have no illusions about the rifle. Lets start there. T is the only one that seems to understand that.
It is what it is. But it will be the first of many (don't tell my wife I said that), and a good starting point. For all I knew when I bought it, I could have decided that I am not into it, but I am hooked...it was more of an experiment than anything else. And now I am here.
Even though I am a noob to this site, I have been shooting and gunsmithing for 36 years, so I smell BS from a lot of the so called heavies at this forum. If you want to give an opinion, do so politely and without arrogance. Or I won't take you seriously at all...ever. Otherwise...hmmmmmm..I better hold back (and STFU as one of them told me). I have better things to do than argue on the computer, and you should, too.
And thanks, Grant, too. Sorry I jabbed at you in the other thread. Thought the original post was about a noob wanting a SW. I think they are high quality. But what the hell do I know? Everyone else jumped in and I was marginalized for entertainment.
S&W's are a good AR, but they are not equal to Colt's.
Taking swings at me is not really good for your life span. :)
C4
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 18:47
OMG it is thick in here. Is this refusal of the peace pipe, or just playful banter?
OMG it is thick in here. Is this refusal of the peace pipe, or just playful banter?
I am not here to be your buddy, sell you anyting or get along. If you want to have a technical debate (without calling people "dickwad") then I am all for it. If you do not then that is just fine as well.
C4
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 19:00
What we have here is...failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So we get what we have here today.
spamsammich
06-05-09, 19:02
One of my all-time favorite movies.
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 19:03
BTW, what is Zippygaloo?:confused:
BTW, what is Zippygaloo?:confused:
A village idiot that behaved similar to you.
C4
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 20:25
You made this expurrence so much funs. I am glad we is pen pals now. Yuo ansred my question even though I wasn't talking to yuo. Yuo is so smart. Thank ewe!
You made this expurrence so much funs. I am glad we is pen pals now. Yuo ansred my question even though I wasn't talking to yuo. Yuo is so smart. Thank ewe!
These are technical forums and your posts are not. Stop wasting BW or you will find your time on here short.
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 20:37
staff, with respect...how about reading the way I have been treated by these so-called experts today. you might see the other side if you do. if not, please feel free to kick me, cause this ain't fun...
spamsammich
06-05-09, 20:42
There's always the option of walking away from the computer and turning instant email notifications off. There are other online resources for information too. This is only one of the many options out there. And they are guaranteed to be more fun.
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 20:43
good point. "bricks don't hit back"
staff, with respect...how about reading the way I have been treated by these so-called experts today. you might see the other side if you do. if not, please feel free to kick me, cause this ain't fun...
You are assuming that we have not read the entire thread. This would be a mistake.
You are not being picked on, but are hearing from people that do not share your point of view.
CaptainDooley
06-06-09, 00:01
I guess we are no longer discussing “DPMS Accuracy” and somehow made the change to “What is offensive for $500”. This started because a users signature line contained the word “retarded” and yet no effort has been made to get back to the original topic so here goes...
Softening the language does not somehow change the condition. It may make it easier for individuals to cope with their situation, but it doesn't change it. My father is in his 80's and is suffering from dementia, which is nothing more than a synonym for “insanity” and “madness”. I assure you that putting a softer label on his condition does not make it any easier for any of the family when it's time to change his diaper, remind him that year is 2009 and WWII has been over for quite some time or take the time to reintroduce yourself to your own parent.
As for "special needs" that is a cop out for people who find "retarded" distasteful or offensive, however accurate it may be. Merriam-Webster defines retarded as "slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development or academic progress". I have also seen the definition listed as "to be held back...". Race cars used to use a device called an "ignition retard switch", which allowed the ignition timing to be adjusted plus or minus some degree of top dead center for finer tuning of an engine in different operating conditions.
I find it far more harmful for a society to bastardize the language and turn the word "special" into into meaning something other than:
1: distinguished by some unusual quality ; especially : being in some way superior.
2: held in particular esteem.
If your child is "retarded" changing the description to "special needs" does not suddenly turn his "hockey helmet" into a "thinking cap" and as for the members of our society that have become reflexively offended by any word they do not view as a compliment I suggest you get your own hockey helmet, since you are obviously of "limited intellectual or emotional development", and struggling “intellectually” and “emotionally” to cope with the reality of your situation.
Instead of commenting on the authors signature, would your time not have been better spent addressing the content of hist post. Which if I read it correctly was trying to redirect the discussion back to the original subject of this topic “DPMS Accuracy”.
If anyone finds this post offensive, tough.
T
Tough? How 'bout this - some words have a particular meaning. Then society takes it and turns it into a derogatory term. Now you have a 2 year old that this formally normal word applies to, except you hear everyone and their mother calling each other this term pejoratively. Furthermore, in the time since this term was used in it's original form we have expanded our knowledge and have developed classifications that allow us to better treat people who are not as fully developed instead of lumping them all into one class (retarded) and treating them all the same, even if their needs are different. So, do you really want to call your 2 year old retarded?
There are some things that never change - language is not one of them., you would do well to know that. If language and usage didn't change, we'd all still be calling people of African descent by several names that are no longer in use (or at least shouldn't be) - one of which used to mean "ignorant" and could possibly be applied to a "retarded" child. So, you up for calling a 2 year old N***er?
Sorry about your dad, it's hell dealing with the failing health of a parent, but that doesn't mean you're right in this instance.
No one was called retarded. It was a word that appeared in a signature line of the person who started this thread. Yes we do have more terms to describe conditions that used to be blanketed by the term retarded, and while it provides a way to classify the origin and possible treatment of the condition, it doesn't change the condition. People tend to call each other names when they run out of other choices, giving them power by getting upset over their lack of choices certainly doesn't seem like a well thought out decision. The name caller will only feel more empowered and continue the usage of the word, because it has some power over the other person.
I agree that the usage of words within a language can change over time. Instead of getting offended or teaching someone else to be offended by the word, try teaching them all of the meanings of the word, how the word evolved and remind them that the person calling them that name may have a very limited vocabulary and simply be out of choices. Better yet, address the person who is calling someone a name and find out if they even know what the word means, if they don't teach them. Each of the fore mentioned examples is a much better solution than getting upset. The difference is that it puts the onus on the receiver of the word to accept responsibility for how they respond, instead rationalizing their indignation by thinking they have the right to choose the words other people use. To the best of my knowledge nobody has the right to not be offended and you will do well to learn this.
As for the 2 year old child example I've found a really simple formula that works across all age groups, races, religions and gender preferences. Simply address the person by using their name (ie. “Hello “ + <Insert Name Here>). There is one important piece to this. If someone doesn't address me by my name, whether they use a derogatory term or not, I don't get upset. Their opinion of me is not a driving force in my life and I base no part of my self-esteem on their vocabulary choices.
My fathers health was not the point. It was an example to illustrate that the word chosen to describe his condition did not change his condition or the impact it has on those around him. A friend of mine inquired about him last week and asked, “Is he still going mad?” and “has he had anymore nut-case outbursts lately?”. If had asked “Is his condition deteriorating?” and “has he had anymore delusional episodes lately?”, the answer would still have been “Yes” to both questions with no more or less thought about the issue.
It's easy to point fingers at another person and think they are the problem, because of how you responded to something they may have said. It is far more difficult to try to understand why you responded the way you did and address those issues. The former is a cop out that allows you to avoid any responsibility for you own reactions. They later will lead you on a far more interesting journey.
Derek_Connor
06-06-09, 08:47
Thank you for the long over-extended social science lesson.
The ONLY reason why I brought up the OP's signature line is because he went out of his way not only to have it, but to also refer back to it.
No one is perfect, Ive been guilty of laughing at a bad joke or using similar phrases.
But I know of 3 specific Industry members who post on this forum who do have Special Needs children, and I know we strive for a little more "professionalism" here on this forum, at least thats what i've been told.
I've worked with children suffering from Autism/Down syndrome/Cerebral palsy for several years, and regardless of your views on political correctness or how Americans label things, it is an accepted label across the board. Using the word "retarded" while not an direct insult, used in the phrase of the OPs signature line, it was. And using the term "Special Needs" encompasses the several million children who are working through the disorders above on top of many more.
I am surprised this thread has gone on as long as it has...
WyrTwister
06-06-09, 13:12
Thanks. Nice to hear from someone sensible, who actually reads the posts and answers them. I have a Desert Eagle .50 10" bbl. with a Leupold 4X pistol scope on top. I absolutely love it and have taken numerous deer with it at 50 to 100 yards (never loses its zero either and that gun is PUNISHING to shoot), so I am leaning toward that brand for a rifle scope. Should be OK, I would think. Your thoughts?
I have long been guilty of buying cheap scopes . :-(
Recently , I have tried to move up in quality ( and price ) , some what .
My biggest peoblem with cheap scopes is not so much the optics as the repeatability of the adjustments .
If I go 3 clicks up , I do not expect it to go up some unpredictable amount and also to the right or left . And so on .
So far , ( with limited testing ) I have been quite satisfied with a Burris Fullfield II and a Leupold I & a Leupold II .
But , seriously , a young person with good eyes can do just about as well at 100 yards with Irons as with glass . However , I do not fall into either category .
God bless
Wyr
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