View Full Version : Home defense concepts and equipment
Failure2Stop
06-04-09, 08:51
I am posting this due to another thread regarding equipment selection for training that brought up the concept of home defense. I am in no way an expert on civilian home defense (I don't even know what would make one qualified in this skill set anyway), so I have based this on my experience with defense of buildings in a military context.
I am not talking about defending your compound from marauding hordes of Chinese ATF Agent Zombies, but rather response to a "bump in the night", breaking glass, barking dog situation. There are of course circumstantial differences that will drive the individual in their response to a potential home invasion which will determine if the individual will be better off barricading themself, securing family members, or actively looking for invaders. I am interested in how different people envision themselves responding, the traning that supports this response, and the reasoning for their response method/equipment.
Here is my view-
When in my home I do not carry a firearm. This could be viewed as poor mindset I guess, but I don't. I usually have a loaded firearm within arm's reach or at least in the same room, but it is rarely attached to me unless I have just returned from the the outside world where I was carrying, before changing for exercise/shower/attention to the GF, etc. In the event of a suprise breach it will probably take me a few seconds to get a gun in hand. I will just have to hope the invader(s) will trip over my coffee table while I scramble for a weapon.
When I am sleeping I have the ubiquitous "pistol on the bed-stand" with a light attached as well as a hand-held light and my cell phone. The primary purpose of that pistol is to deal with something that has entered the room. It is the only firearm I will reasonably be able to bring to bear should the attacker be in extremely close proximity and allow me to fight with both hands and still deliver effective fire.
I keep a M4 clone in a "cruiser ready"/"condition 3"/"loaded but not made ready" state with the safety engaged. It's application is for anytime I have time/opportunity/need to grab it and charge it. It is kept in cond 3 for a few reasons, not the the least of which is impeding the immediate use of the weapon by someone that entered my bedroom.
I see an invasion worthy of immediate investigation. This is not to say that anyone else should do so, simply that in my general situation I reason that it would be better to do so than to barricade. The faster I respond to the invasion the more initiative and suprise are on my side. I want to make contact before the invader(s) have had time to orient themselves or gain deep placement inside the enclosure. Hopefully I will be able to catch them before thay have completed entry. This requires speed.
Due to my need for rapid action I will be limited to tools and equipment that I can hold or use while closing with the suspected breach point. Target identification and discrimination are critical to the success of home defense without endangering non-threatening individuals, so I will need to have a light, which are mounted on my go-to guns. I want to close with the breach point as quickly as tactically possible, so I will most likely not have the time to dress in anything more substantial than my bunny-slippers.
While I have armor available I think that speed of action is more important than protection level. Same with spare ammunition- I don't have anywhere in my boxers to retain a mag, so I will go with what is in my gun (another reason I like a Redi-Mag).
I have had a couple of times that I have responded to what seemed to be attempted break-ins as I have described and at no point did I think that I was doing the "wrong" thing (one was nothing, the other was a drunk guy that mistook my front door for his and kept trying to get his key to turn). I was able to quickly identify the location of the "breach" even when awaking from deep sleep and quickly move to that location.
When working alone you are exponentially more vulnerable than even working as a pair. Since you are more vulnerable from the rear I reckon that keeping your back to a know safe area while controlling deeper movement by the invader and minimizing frontal exposure to be the safest concept, while closing down the breach point as quickly as possible will resolve the incident the fastest. Situation and layout will play a large part in what concept will work better.
From the other thread I see that some are taking the time to put on armor and belts. While I decided against it, there may be merit in it, and I am curious as to how those items have worked in actual use, or how their absence would have made a difference.
F2S,
I see alot of common sense and thought in your plan. When I am home my scenario is as follows;
1. G19 or G22 on night stand with Surefire X300 attached. Next to night stand is an AR with a light, sling and one fully loaded PMAG. Chamber is empty, on fire.
2. Lots of factors involved assuming that one wakes up and is coherent. Basically if I hear a bump in the night I'll grab the pistol, do a look, listen and observe and go from there.
3. If the front door is kicked in and SHTF then I will go straight for the AR, take a position at the bedroom door which has a view to the pantry/garage and my sons room and a view down the hall towards the main part of the house. In this time my wife will be calling 911 and manning the Glock and heading towards the walk-in closet/ safe room.
4. As for armor and belts and all that jazz probably not. I would rather stop the threat immediately then be dicking around and get caught with my pants down.
Jay Cunningham
06-04-09, 10:39
This is an excellent topic for discussion.
Concerning civilian home defense, I can only speak for myself. I have heard every argument for or against this approach or that approach and this piece of gear or gun versus the other one... and they can all be valid with an understanding of the context.
For me:
My primary defensive weapon is a modified Glock 19 equipped with an SF x300 light loaded with Speer Golt Dot 124 gr. +P JHP's. This is my "nightstand gun" and is always ready to go. Quite frequently, I am armed with my other Glock 19 while in my dwelling, but I am not always carrying inside.
I have a modified Colt LE6920 in Condition 3 quickly accessible, but this is not what I'm going to grab if someone is inside - this is for a condition that I have at least a minute of advance warning. This weapon is equipped with a CCO, a quick-adjusting two point sling, and a weapon-mounted light.
I do have my "war belt" (which is my training class rig) hanging alongside my LE6920... is this something that I would realistically ever don? I could - it only takes throwing it around my waist and a click to secure it. It is loaded with everything I might ever need for an extended fight. The odds that I would ever need this (or could ever effectively use this) are extraordinarily low, but it doesn't cost me anything to maintain, so it's there as an option. Realistically, you are going to run with what you brung on your gun - which is why I also agree that something like a Redi-Mag is a great idea for a defensive carbine. I have pondered whether a sling is necessary in this scenario, and I can understand why someone might omit it.
I live in an apartment on the ground floor, so I don't really have much margin for error. If I ever experienced a "hot break-in" then I need to be instantly in the fight - I have no choice. Retreating to a bedroom is not really an option for me. I need to confront any intruder with extreme aggression. I know for a fact that I have the ability to be up and armed out of a deep sleep in mere seconds. My wife shook me awake once to whisper "there's someone jiggling the knob on our front door"... I was up and armed instantly, taking cover between an interior wall and the front door, developing the situation. Turns out it was a couple of drunk morons who thought they were somewhere else... all's well that ends well.
I think my wife knows to stay behind me and call 911 - but I have no idea what she'd actually do.
Thomas M-4
06-04-09, 10:51
Having dealt with a similar situation in the past that included said dirtbag trying to take a loved on as a hostage. You may not hear anything bump in the night you may only hear the voice of your loved one. As a pistol is put to there head I believe that immediate action is the best choice most of the time along with stealth if at all possible if stealth is not possible then speed and violence of action to throw said attacker to a confused and off balance position.
As far as firearms recommendations what ever you feel most confident using
M-4 good choice if set up for cqb [reddot or irons]
Pistol not my first choice but its because Iam not the greatest pistol shot and I like having as much stopping power with control as I can.
Shotgun most are big and a little unwieldy but that can be helped some it does have plenty of stopping power for room to room.
And if possible having firearms spread out the house in concealed locations is nice because not all home invasions take place in the night while you are asleep in you bed.
I had a situation a ways back where a guy crashed into the empty lot next to my house and got out and ran from the police. He was drunk and tried running up the hill next to my house. He ran into a wire fence (as it was dark and he couldn't see it) and tumbled down the hill. It was funny to watch him roll down the hill, but I realized that if he'd made a B-line for my sliding glass door (which was open), he'd have been there by the time I got up and looked outside (lazy response because wife and I were pondering what the ruckus might have been). That being said, I carry all the time, even at home. It usually ends up on the coffee table if we're parked in the couch watching a movie or something, but after that, I realized there's little time to actually arm yourself.
At night, my carry pistol goes on the nightstand with my mag pouch that I carry normally. Rifles are in the safe as the houses are pretty close together. If there was an obvious breach into my home, I'd hunker down in the bedroom with the wife on the phone because of the way the house is set up. From the bedroom, it allows me the ability to light up whatever comes thru the door with no worries of over penetration (there's a big hill behind whatever would come thru the bedroom door. If I left the confines of the bedroom, there's just too many other homes across the street and on the left side of the home for me to feel safe about firing. NOT to say I can't shoot, but all it would take is one miss in the dark to irrevokably change things for the innocent people nearby. Besides, the situation puts an agressor at a severe disadvantage being I'll know exactly when they reach the bedroom door (it's locked at night) and I have an off center view of the door. If it gets kicked open without notification, it ain't anyone I want or asked to be there.
If there's just a "scary noise" as my wife calls it, I have a system wired in my house to a central remote. I press a few buttons, and all the lights in the house and outside come on. If someone's coming in quiet, they probably don't want the attention and would bolt. If not, they'll face the same .45 a loud assaulting BG would.
I seriously doubted for a long time that this situation would ever arise in my little old town, but a year or so ago, there were people violently busting into homes for prescription drugs. (they figured out the BG's had a person directing them to homes with recent perscriptions and caught them) It is highly unlikely that this will happen, but it's better to have a plan than not.
As an aside, we charge our cell phones in the bedroom rather than somewhere else. It'd pay to have access to a phone that isn't wired into a wall.
I don't really have any interest in going looking for scumbags one or two floors down if my alarm goes off while I'm in bed. I definitely take the "Alamo" approach and would just wait for them to come to me. If you have kids/family elsewhere in floorplan then obviously your situation changes and you take the risks that you need to take. Every instructor I have ever asked has agreed that clearing any house, even your own, is a very bad idea if you're all alone.
One of my biggest fears - one that many people don't seen too worried about - is that a burglar will break in and get ahold of one of my guns and then either I or my girlfriend will walk in while he's there. I don't think people give enough thought to that kind of scenario when they "cleverly" hide guns around the house or in closets. There is not a single gun in my house that isn't secured, unless I am at home with it. Usually that means that my "nightstand" gun is just whatever I carried that day. In the morning it goes back on my belt, and everything else is in the safe.
I had different plans when I was single than I do now that I have a woman and her child that I'm responsible for as well. I've talked with them about what our plan is/would be and they know what to do. Whether they follow through or not is another story. As the kid get's older and turns into a teenager I'm sure I'll revisit the plan again to avoid having a tragedy when he sneaks out at night or returns well past curfew.
Same as most others, there's a pistol and a rifle that I can choose from, both with lights. I find that the Redimag has a lot of merit on the rifle for this purpose, negating the need for belts and other load carriage.
I recently purchased some soft armor and am looking to add plates to it, but I frankly never really gave it much thought at so something I might put on before retrieving the kid. Might make sense, depending on the circumstances.
Anyone taken the time to harden portions of their dwelling to make hunkering down or moving around safer? I've thought about hardening a couple of the drywall corners in the house to give myself vantage points to move between if need be. I'd pull the drywall and build up the wall underneath before replacing the drywall so that it wouldn't be obvious that the area was built up.
One of my biggest fears - one that many people don't seen too worried about - is that a burglar will break in and get ahold of one of my guns and then either I or my girlfriend will walk in while he's there.
I keep everything secured, even the bedroom rifle and pistol.
I had a scare a few years ago when my apartment was broken into. The one thing of value they took was my shotgun which was the one gun I left out of the safe thinking it was "hidden". It didn't dawn on me until later that if I had come home while they were there, they could have used my own gun against me.
I keep everything secured, even the bedroom rifle and pistol.
I had a scare a few years ago when my apartment was broken into. The one thing of value they took was my shotgun which was the one gun I left out of the safe thinking it was "hidden". It didn't dawn on me until later that if I had come home while they were there, they could have used my own gun against me.
I remember you posting about that before. I have always been paranoid about that, ever since I bought my first gun many moons ago. Maybe it's just my ego, but I'd really hate to go out being shot by my own damn gun.
As an aside, how do you secure your rifle? I've been looking at options to discreetly secure a rifle or shotgun in the bedroom without having to mangle walls or furniture. I've looked at Life Jacket type setups and a few other things.
Thomas M-4
06-04-09, 16:19
I don't really have any interest in going looking for scumbags one or two floors down if my alarm goes off while I'm in bed. I definitely take the "Alamo" approach and would just wait for them to come to me. If you have kids/family elsewhere in floorplan then obviously your situation changes and you take the risks that you need to take. Every instructor I have ever asked has agreed that clearing any house, even your own, is a very bad idea if you're all alone.
One of my biggest fears - one that many people don't seen too worried about - is that a burglar will break in and get ahold of one of my guns and then either I or my girlfriend will walk in while he's there. I don't think people give enough thought to that kind of scenario when they "cleverly" hide guns around the house or in closets. There is not a single gun in my house that isn't secured, unless I am at home with it. Usually that means that my "nightstand" gun is just whatever I carried that day. In the morning it goes back on my belt, and everything else is in the safe.
dbrowne you make a good point about how your floorplan can change your situation if you have a multi floor dwelling and the bedrooms are up stairs the alamo approach would make good sense if you knew that every one was upstairs [in that situation i would try to find some concealment/cover over watching the stairs]
Home invaders are typically armed before they enter the home some try to violently enter some try to sneak in and catch you off gaurd the ''cleverly'' hide guns scenario is so if you did get caught with out your ccw you still mite have a chance to turn the table on the intruder.[That being said it is not for everyone and if you carry your ccw on you in the house then there is no point]
If I am leaving the home for more than an hour I would and do lock up all firearms. [no reason to let a burglar get their hands on a weapon] But if they did thats what home owners insurance is for.
As an aside, how do you secure your rifle? I've been looking at options to discreetly secure a rifle or shotgun in the bedroom without having to mangle walls or furniture. I've looked at Life Jacket type setups and a few other things.
This is what I want, albeit not what I'm currently doing. I currently have vaults on keys.
http://www.gunvault.com/55005900.nxg
Failure2Stop
06-04-09, 16:30
Not to get too sidetracked, but I think the "hide guns all over the house game" is borderline criminal negligence. If you feel the need to be armed, be armed, or have a firearm in easy access close to you.
I think that we, as firearms owners and users, are responsible for taking appropriate and reasonable steps to avoid arming criminals with our weapons. Personally owned weapons are highly unlikely to be legally used against another person to preserve life, unfortunately, stolen guns are virtually guaranteed to be used against another person in a criminal manner. Do your part, lock up guns not in your immediate control.
. . . and knowing is half the battle! :rolleyes:
Thomas M-4
06-04-09, 16:32
I keep everything secured, even the bedroom rifle and pistol.
I had a scare a few years ago when my apartment was broken into. The one thing of value they took was my shotgun which was the one gun I left out of the safe thinking it was "hidden". It didn't dawn on me until later that if I had come home while they were there, they could have used my own gun against me.
rob_s when your aparment was broken into were you gone for hours or did you just go down the street. If iam gone just for an hour or less I leave the TVs on to give the impression that I am coming right back [in the hope that it will cause the robber to rush and look over stuff] Home was broken into a couple of years ago and they rushed right over a glock 17 that I had hidden under a bed pillow [ I know I was very lucky because robbers usually take pillow cases to hall lute in I havent hidden a pistol there since].
My gun locker has keys so its pertty quick to secure the fire arms up.
Not to get too sidetracked, but I think the "hide guns all over the house game" is borderline criminal negligence. If you feel the need to be armed, be armed, or have a firearm in easy access close to you.
+1
Not to mention, that there's virtually nowhere you can hide something in plain sight where a criminal won't look. I'm very much an advocate of "if it's not in my control, it's in the safe".
Seriously though, deterrence is a great ally. The home automation system I use is great. I've got motion sensitive lights outside, and I can activate any lights in the house individually or all at once. I think it ended up costing me about $500 overall, and I pieced it together over about 2 years.
robs, I like the idea of reinforcing corners, but you'd have to use some heavy duty stuff to stop rifle rounds, pistol wouldn't be all that hard to do. Expensive, but interesting idea.
Also keep in mind that those lifejacket type locks are great for stopping someone from using a weapon in short order, but they do very little to deter theft. A rifle with a lifejacket lock on it can be carried as easily as one without, then cut off at their leisure somewhere else. A good, big safe can be had for the price of just one of the rifles in many of our collections. It's far better to pay off that than try and replace everything, not including arming criminals as F2S stated.
Anyone taken the time to harden portions of their dwelling to make hunkering down or moving around safer? I've thought about hardening a couple of the drywall corners in the house to give myself vantage points to move between if need be. I'd pull the drywall and build up the wall underneath before replacing the drywall so that it wouldn't be obvious that the area was built up.
I think armoring walls in anticipation of your house turning into an IDPA stage is probably over the top and, in any case, would only be useful in a very select few scenarios of an already unlikely event.
I do think that if your main strategy is "the Alamo" in the bedroom, that having a reinforced door and doorframe and some heavy duty locks (deadbolts) on the bedroom door would be worthwhile. Sort of a "panic room" concept. Include a peep hole if you want in order to identify people outside if they claim to be police or other friendlies.
+1
Also keep in mind that those lifejacket type locks are great for stopping someone from using a weapon in short order, but they do very little to deter theft. A rifle with a lifejacket lock on it can be carried as easily as one without, then cut off at their leisure somewhere else. A good, big safe can be had for the price of just one of the rifles in many of our collections. It's far better to pay off that than try and replace everything, not including arming criminals as F2S stated.
My thinking with the life jacket was to bolt it to a wall stud or bed frame. Obviously if I'm out of town for a while I'd stick the gun back in the safe.
Littlelebowski
06-04-09, 17:31
I have a G17 with light attached in a safe attached to the bed and a Sabre middy in the closet. On perimeter outside of the bedroom is a German Shepherd who usually sleeps inside the house. I am of the firm belief that a good dog is a force multiplier.
If I'm wearing pants, I'm wearing a gun. Life is simpler that way. I choose carry modes that allow me to sit, lie on the couch, and generally lounge around the house.
If I'm not, I'm in bed and the same gun is sitting on the nightstand next to me.
All weapons are secure in the safe when no one is home. My wife isn't real comfortable with the AR, but the Glock is handy when she's home.
I keep everything secured, even the bedroom rifle and pistol.
I had a scare a few years ago when my apartment was broken into. The one thing of value they took was my shotgun which was the one gun I left out of the safe thinking it was "hidden". It didn't dawn on me until later that if I had come home while they were there, they could have used my own gun against me.
QuietShootr
06-04-09, 18:26
I
As an aside, we charge our cell phones in the bedroom rather than somewhere else. It'd pay to have access to a phone that isn't wired into a wall.
This is a big +1. Wife and I both have charging stands on each side of the bed.
Iraq Ninja
06-05-09, 00:26
I guess I am a big proponent of body armor and here is why. Most people think it is slow to put it on. It is all a matter of technique.
For us working in Iraq or Astan, rocket or mortar attacks can be common. You learn to get your armor on quickly. I found that putting on my full "work" vest to be slow since you normally have to use two hands due to the weight. In the dark it is even harder and things can get hung up as you are throwing it on. So, I went with a simple plate carrier with just a med kit on the front. I draped it over my night table with the rear plate flat on top of the table and the front plate hanging down in front. Since the rear plate has no kit on it, it lays flat. The inside portion of the carrier is facing up.
When I put it on, I simply grab the rear portion off the table and throw it over my head. This action can also be done with one hand if needed. Another way is to roll out of bed onto the floor (commonly done during attacks) and walk on all fours until your head goes goes into the plate carrier. I never sleep in a totally darkened room due to these constant threats. I want to see just enough to get to my kit. Oftentimes, this means nothing more than the glow from my laptop's screen.
People think putting on armor is slow because they only put it on for shooting courses and it is normally fastened. It is really a matter of a lack of training with the vest. You do not have to buckle the plate carrier right away. The weight will let it hang naturally over your chest.
Shadow1198
06-05-09, 01:18
I won't be surprised if there is at least one person here who's PJ's consist of boxers, hanes t-shirt or wife beater........a MICH helmet, plate carrier, thigh holster, and a slung carbine. ;) I kid, I kid.
Myself, within arms reach of my bed I have a large LED flashlight, my cell, glasses, P220 and two mags, belt with a holster and 2 more mags in a mag pouch on it that I can quickly throw on if the situation warrants, and lastly I have a Benelli Supernova about 5 feet away if things seem dire. 25rds of buckshot, slugs, and then 40rds of .45acp should be good enough, and if not I'll have an AR as well as soon as I get off my lazy butt and finish building it. I'm also thinking about maybe having a vest around of some sort (maybe IIIa soft armor, or maybe just a couple plates for my knock off plate carrier). Most of that stuff is velcro and only takes a sec to throw on anyways. Doesn't have to be perfectly cinched up, just needs to cover the vital areas.
Failure2Stop
06-05-09, 04:38
I never sleep in a totally darkened room due to these constant threats.
You heard it here first folks, Iraq Ninja sleeps with a nightlight :cool:.
I hear that DEVGRU is now issuing Spongebob nightlights for the same reason :D.
I guess I am a big proponent of body armor and here is why. -SNIP-
(this is not really a direct response to you, Iraq Ninja, but rather a discussion about the points you raised)
Absolutely agee about the technique issue. I have been to a few courses that had time limits for donning full kit, as well as more than a few real life "get it the f**k on NOW!" times. This is a big reason that my armor (and all of my kit really) is set up to permit rapid donning. There is no argument I can think of that would make me say that I would rather not have protection than to have it on.
Of course, knowing how fast you can get it on, and how "on" it needs to be to be worthwhile is a critical point. Once that is known, one can examine the time delay that grabbing the armor will impose. Everything an individual does takes a certain amount of time, and during that time the intruder will also be doing something. I think it comes to a fine line of balancing protection and support with speed of action.
If one is willing to accept a time delay and a few seconds of inability to act at full capacity and freedom of movement for the invader(s) in order to up protection levels, I have no real criticism. One thing that I will say is that a rapid, aggressive response will let you get away with some pretty audacious things if you are willing to be mean, fast, and naked.
Mr.Goodtimes
06-05-09, 06:43
if someone breaks in, ive decided i will be meeting them at somewhere in the house. my house is a two story house and my stairs are at the front of the house. and the way me home is set up, its very easy to clear the house from the stairs, starting at the front and moving towards the back. this is also ideal because 5 feet from my bedroom, is a balcony that overlooks the front door.
I can identify with this part "One thing that I will say is that a rapid, aggressive response will let you get away with some pretty audacious things if you are willing to be mean, fast, and naked" since I sleep in the buff. I often wonder what will be more effective. Me firing on them or them seeing my cack swinging in the breeze. :D
You heard it here first folks, Iraq Ninja sleeps with a nightlight :cool:.
I hear that DEVGRU is now issuing Spongebob nightlights for the same reason :D.
(this is not really a direct response to you, Iraq Ninja, but rather a discussion about the points you raised)
Absolutely agee about the technique issue. I have been to a few courses that had time limits for donning full kit, as well as more than a few real life "get it the f**k on NOW!" times. This is a big reason that my armor (and all of my kit really) is set up to permit rapid donning. There is no argument I can think of that would make me say that I would rather not have protection than to have it on.
Of course, knowing how fast you can get it on, and how "on" it needs to be to be worthwhile is a critical point. Once that is known, one can examine the time delay that grabbing the armor will impose. Everything an individual does takes a certain amount of time, and during that time the intruder will also be doing something. I think it comes to a fine line of balancing protection and support with speed of action.
If one is willing to accept a time delay and a few seconds of inability to act at full capacity and freedom of movement for the invader(s) in order to up protection levels, I have no real criticism. One thing that I will say is that a rapid, aggressive response will let you get away with some pretty audacious things if you are willing to be mean, fast, and naked.
QuietShootr
06-05-09, 08:20
Yup - I count on that as part of the shock and awe strategy :D Nekkid, hairy dude advancing on you with a carbine, and junk swinging in the breeze. How'd that be for a 'last thing you see before you die' image?:D:D
Naked, hairy and tattoos. :D :D :D I think "Cock and Awe" would be more appropriate.
Yup - I count on that as part of the shock and awe strategy :D Nekkid, hairy dude advancing on you with a carbine, and junk swinging in the breeze. How'd that be for a 'last thing you see before you die' image?:D:D
If I'm wearing pants, I'm wearing a gun. Life is simpler that way.
That's how I do it. If I don't have it on my belt, then I'm constantly doing a mental search for where I put it down. Can I get to it quickly, etc.
It's easier to just put it on and forget about it.
Naked, hairy and tattoos. :D :D :D I think "Cock and Awe" would be more appropriate.
Just don't take any naps when we hit the range next time. :eek:
...a rapid, aggressive response will let you get away with some pretty audacious things if you are willing to be mean, fast, and naked.
That's sig line material :D
Good discussion. I'm now wondering how I'm going to get my wife talked into putting the kitchen table next to the bed to use as a nightstand.
I think armoring walls in anticipation of your house turning into an IDPA stage is probably over the top and, in any case, would only be useful in a very select few scenarios of an already unlikely event.
I do think that if your main strategy is "the Alamo" in the bedroom, that having a reinforced door and doorframe and some heavy duty locks (deadbolts) on the bedroom door would be worthwhile. Sort of a "panic room" concept. Include a peep hole if you want in order to identify people outside if they claim to be police or other friendlies.
I'm not sure what IDPA has to do with anything....
Maybe it's situational. Our plan involves one of us covering the choke point and only avenue of access while the other retrieves the kid. I don't see a big deal with spending an hour or two to give the covering person a secure place from which to do so. I'm in construction so it's not a big hardship for me to do the work.
What would be ideal is if we could replace the bedroom door such that it could do double duty as the secure point for the cover-er and be used to secure the room once we're all safely in it.
I'm not sure what IDPA has to do with anything....
Maybe it's situational. Our plan involves one of us covering the choke point and only avenue of access while the other retrieves the kid. I don't see a big deal with spending an hour or two to give the covering person a secure place from which to do so. I'm in construction so it's not a big hardship for me to do the work.
If it's no skin off your back and it's a likely scenario, then absolutely - have at it. I guess my point is that putting up pre-staged "hard points" means that you are only planning for one scenario, rather than having a more comprehensive strategy to deal with situations you don't anticipate. What if you're in a different part of the house and the bad guy ends up between you and the hard point, for example?
What would be ideal is if we could replace the bedroom door such that it could do double duty as the secure point for the cover-er and be used to secure the room once we're all safely in it.
It's probably doable, though it might involve some creative work or creative shopping to get an armored door that doesn't look like an armored door.
It's probably doable, though it might involve some creative work or creative shopping to get an armored door that doesn't look like an armored door.
Not as hard as you might think (http://www.mastersecuritydoors.com/armored-doors.asp).
decodeddiesel
06-05-09, 16:20
To all of those folks that are talking about clearing their house to confront a possibly armed bad guy...
Please ask yourself, do you truly and honestly have the training and skill set necessary to "move to contact" by yourself, half-asleep, in the middle of the night, with a loaded deadly weapon? Maybe you do, probably you don't.
I personally have been trained on building entry and search. I have spent DAYS in live shoot houses. I have done dynamic entries in combat zones with real bullets and real consequences, and I have had to shoot people at close range in buildings. This was always with a team of highly trained guys, and always in an offensive role meaning we were the ones who breached the door and assaulted in force. No one was half asleep, or startled, or surprised. Not saying it always went well...it didn't...but we were trained to deal with it.
Even with all of this training and experience, there is no way in hell I would feel comfortable "clearing" my own house in the middle of the night, by myself, after being startled awake from a deep sleep knowing with reasonable certainty there is someone in my house. The most I could rationally see myself doing in response to a "bump in the night" is quickly peeking out of my bedroom door and "pie'ing the corner" to ensure the immediate hallway in front of my bedroom is clear, then looking/listening/observing until I make a decision there is no one in the house, or there is. If I am reasonably sure there is no one in my house (perhaps after 20 minutes of observation) then I will precede to investigate and "clear the house". If I believe someone is in my house, my wife is dialing 911 which I provide static security on the bedroom. Were my front door kicked in I would arm myself and move to a good firing position on the bedroom door, have my wife dial 911.
When my daughter is born I will have to re-think this, and when she gets to be a teenager (or even just walking out of her bedroom in the middle of the night by herself) I will REALLY have to rethink this.
Just wanted to splash some cold water on all of the folks that think that clearing a building by yourself is something that is trivial or easy, it is neither.
Even with all of this training and experience, there is no way in hell I would feel comfortable "clearing" my own house in the middle of the night, by myself, after being startled awake from a deep sleep knowing with reasonable certainty there is someone in my house.
Sissy. What's the worst that could happen? :cool:
I do have to admit, it's always funny to me how many people justify their gear by telling you they're getting ready for a team of trained, coordinated attackers to infiltrate the house while simultaneously justifying the one-man CQB Team concept by explaining that the threat isn't going to be serious enough to hole up in a position of strength and just kill things that come through the funnel.
To all of those folks that are talking about clearing their house to confront a possibly armed bad guy...
Please ask yourself, do you truly and honestly have the training and skill set necessary to "move to contact" by yourself, half-asleep, in the middle of the night, with a loaded deadly weapon? Maybe you do, probably you don't.
I personally have been trained on building entry and search. I have spent DAYS in live shoot houses. I have done dynamic entries in combat zones with real bullets and real consequences, and I have had to shoot people at close range in buildings. This was always with a team of highly trained guys, and always in an offensive role meaning we were the ones who breached the door and assaulted in force. No one was half asleep, or startled, or surprised. Not saying it always went well...it didn't...but we were trained to deal with it.
Even with all of this training and experience, there is no way in hell I would feel comfortable "clearing" my own house in the middle of the night, by myself, after being startled awake from a deep sleep knowing with reasonable certainty there is someone in my house. The most I could rationally see myself doing in response to a "bump in the night" is quickly peeking out of my bedroom door and "pie'ing the corner" to ensure the immediate hallway in front of my bedroom is clear, then looking/listening/observing until I make a decision there is no one in the house, or there is. If I am reasonably sure there is no one in my house (perhaps after 20 minutes of observation) then I will precede to investigate and "clear the house". If I believe someone is in my house, my wife is dialing 911 which I provide static security on the bedroom. Were my front door kicked in I would arm myself and move to a good firing position on the bedroom door, have my wife dial 911.
When my daughter is born I will have to re-think this, and when she gets to be a teenager (or even just walking out of her bedroom in the middle of the night by herself) I will REALLY have to rethink this.
Just wanted to splash some cold water on all of the folks that think that clearing a building by yourself is something that is trivial or easy, it is neither.
I come from the same background, and I have the same idea about this. THe only differences for me are that I have kids, luckily we all sleep on the same floor down the same hall, so you have to get through me to get to my kids. And I limit it to 10 minutes of waiting and listening for weird noises and then my wife takes my place in the doorway and I go check it out. She was a Marine too and has been through enough training for me to feel confident that she could do the job if I go down. One thing that we do I actually took from work and that is to tell her everytime before I come out of a room and have her respond.
I've done a few solo runs through a shoothouse (under the supervision of some very experienced folks) and that alone was enough to convince me that I never want to do it for real. There's just too much area and too many angles to cover and process by yourself.
I do have to admit, it's always funny to me how many people justify their gear by telling you they're getting ready for a team of trained, coordinated attackers to infiltrate the house while simultaneously justifying the one-man CQB Team concept by explaining that the threat isn't going to be serious enough to hole up in a position of strength and just kill things that come through the funnel.
It's a particularly odd strategy given that one would presumably be contacting the police, who would presumably send multiple officers to such a call. Let them come in from the ground up. They either catch the guy(s) or they flush them to your barricade position.
Some folks would rather sound cool that actually think these things through.
thopkins22
06-06-09, 11:11
I have issues with the barricade yourself and wait crowd. If you know for a fact that someone is in your house, then it's clearly the only smart decision. But things often go bump that have nothing to do with criminal activity. How many times do you plan to call the police to find that a raccoon knocked over your trash?
Also, try as I might, I can't figure out a viable way to safely stay in my bedroom should someone break in. I live in a small apartment and my bedroom has two doors...one goes directly to my entrance hallway(I can see the front door when it's open from my bed,) and the other goes into my kitchen(which opens to the living/dining space where there is another door to my backyard.)
Should someone come through my front door they can either turn left past my bathroom and into my bedroom or go straight into the living room. Hopefully they would go straight as that would give me time to respond, but then I'm forced into covering two directions by myself. I can't reasonably protect myself from two directions, so I think dictating the fight and moving to contact is my remaining option.
Any clues?
"Barricade yourself", at least for me, is something that would only happy if we KNOW that someone is in the house. There are lots of ways to know this, none of which I'm willing to share about my particular situation. I don't think anyone is saying that they don body armor, retrieve the carbine, secure the children, and dial 911 every time they hear the trash can fall over outside. :rolleyes:
As for your apartment, it sounds like you chose your living arrangements poorly. Security was my primary consideration when I rented my last place.
thopkins22
06-06-09, 11:31
I don't think anyone is saying that they don body armor, retrieve the carbine, secure the children, and dial 911 every time they hear the trash can fall over outside. :rolleyes:I realize that, but it's why I think the argument isn't valid that you should never learn to take a corner by yourself because doing it solo while scared and half asleep will likely lead to bad things. I agree that it's a stupid decision if you know you have an intruder. But we don't call the police for every little noise...we investigate. As I said, barricading makes perfect sense when you know that someone is in the house.
As for your apartment, it sounds like you chose your living arrangements poorly. Security was my primary consideration when I rented my last place.It is what it is though. I chose my apartment based on what I could afford in the neighborhood I wanted to live in.
Failure2Stop
06-06-09, 12:42
I think that training opens up some options while indicating that others are inapplicable. While I do not want to have to devise numerous home defense plans (execute "Blue Charle 2"!), I do reserve options based on the situation.
Of course, during offensive military operations we have the ability to push multiple trained shooters simultaneously through a door, so the concept of having a single shooter making solo entry is unnecessary and overly risky. We are also generally operating in an environment in which most of the actual layout of the enclosure is unknown and the number of hostile armed threats can be guessed at depending on the level of hastiness of which the clearance must be achieved. Really, comparing military offensive operations to checking you own home for ne'er-do-wells is almost (but not quite) apples to oranges. Even when bringing the comparison to a more equal level, comparing domestic SWAT clearing methods to military methods uncover some pretty drastic differences. These differences are primarily due to very different threat profiles.
If the invaders are as well armed and fanatically motivated as the people we kinetically pacify in current military campaigns, you can pretty much count on losing the fight unless you have a bunch of equally determined pipe-swingers at your side. I would venture to say that the dudes that are breaking in to steal your plasma screen TV and PlayStation are probably not going to fit that profile. However, there are several different kinds of people that may try to gain entry into your home for various reasons, each of which should be considered a lethal threat simply because you have no idea what their intentions are or what they are willing to do if given the opportunity. When the window breaks you have no idea if it is some kid that wants to steal some junk to pawn for pot or a psycho that wants to do some awful shit to your family. The more people that gain entry, the worse the outcome. The more time the invaders have unchallenged, the worse the outcome. Presence of females in the home- worse outcome. Unsuccessful defensive fight- worse outcome.
Barricading is a defensive measure, and is the only option for those that lack the will and training to effectively fight. Barricading buys time, exactly how much time is dependant on a lot of factors. I know that within my home/garage/work area there are numerous items that can be used to facilitate entry into any door in a residential structure and others that can be employed to make a room uninhabitable. All it takes is a little experience or creativity- I won't potentially provide details for those with ill intentions.
While I have given advice to some to barricade themselves and call 911, that is because those people will probably be worse off if they do anything else. Exactly what a "barricade" is also variable. You can create a strong point from many different locations. There is nothing to say that you can't leave your wife in the room with the door open for visual connection to you while you move to a more advantageous location to dominate and control more of the structure or entry points.
I want to deprive the intruder(s) of the initiative and force them into a reactive posture. I know the layout of my home, where high-risk items are located, vantage points, the location of light switches, what is under each window, the length of each room, which doors should be open or closed, what corners are empty, etc. There are simple things that one can do with their home to make 90% clearance possible from the door wihtout turning your back to a potential threat. It might **** up the FengShui of the room, but I have no fashion sense anyway, so who cares? I am going to use my knowledge, ability, aggression, and speed in conjunction with my home's layout against the intruder with as much speed and violence (if warranted) as possible. While I would like to have more training in single-man clearing techniques (and I highly recommend that everone that is serious about HD does so), it is simply to get more training in this aspect.
I am in no way whatsoever saying that anyone else in the world should do this. I am accepting much more risk initially in order to gain the initiative, and I am aware of that.
Have a plan. Have a backup plan. Keep your options open. While no plan survives first contact, at least you are working on familiar territory until it goes south. Don't be lazy or complacent, and don't try to create a plan that is so extravagent and intensive that you and the people you live with won't do it every time you investigate something abnormal. If you can't stand confrontation don't make a plan that involves hondo-rolling into every room and dispatching death squads of ninjas with your JackHawk2000. Remember that the cops only show up after they are called or somebody calls in after hearing shots fired. Remember that they take time to show up, and what you are going to do while waiting for them.
Have a fire extinguisher handy.
decodeddiesel
06-06-09, 13:07
A lot of good points you make F2S.
I think you are right in that the critical flaw in what I was saying was in understanding the threat level of the intruders. Odds are him/they will not be AK wielding insurgents looking to kill some Americans for Allah.
I am willing to bet Johnny the crackhead will stop dead in his tracks when confronted by a well armed home-owner with a 120 lumen light and weapon. Most home intruders are not looking for a fight, they are looking for and easy score.
I still think the look/listen/assess period is valid here for 2 reasons. Number one it gives you time to process your observations and continue to observe so as to decide what you next actions will be, and number two it gives you time to come to full consciousness before engaging in the task of clearing the house.
This is a great thread guys, there's a lot of accumulated wisdom in here to learn from. This really got me thinking of what my middle-of-the-night plan would be. I've include d a link to an image (rather than including it in the post, so it wasn't taking up too much of the page) with a quick, not quite to scale layout of the part of my house that would be involved in a break in situation. The image is pretty self explanatory, the engagement distances I've marked are the minimum distance, as though the bad guy were using a wall as cover, and then popped out as close as possible.
My thinking is that the "looking down the hall" position causes trouble in three ways, first you have to move TOWARDS the likely intruder, second, you are still left with the glass sliding door behind you, and three, any misses would send a bullet sailing straight for my neighbor's house.
The "behind the bed" position faces similar problems as the hallway position, also there is much less of a funnel there, once through the doorway someone could move to the left or right.
The third position is to take a position in the master bathroom. In here I have a slightly shorter minimum engagement distance, but I don't have the worry about there being a glass door at my back, and any missed shots would sail harmlessly into a dirt embankment well below my neighbor's house on that side. Also, with the furniture in the bedroom and the vanity in the bathroom there is an even more effective funnel.
One last thing I didn't even think of until this is the possibility of putting a mirror on the wall I'd be facing while in the bathroom. That would give me a view of the entire bedroom. An intruder could use it to see me as well, but he'd still have to move on my fortified position, so I'm guessing it's a bigger benefit to me.
Well guys, let me hear your thoughts. :)
CLICK HERE FOR PIC (http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m255/90Z51/Images%20For%20Postings/HouseDefenseLayout.jpg)
QuietShootr
06-06-09, 13:44
To all of those folks that are talking about clearing their house to confront a possibly armed bad guy...
Please ask yourself, do you truly and honestly have the training and skill set necessary to "move to contact" by yourself, half-asleep, in the middle of the night, with a loaded deadly weapon?
...Yes.
I have quickly-donnable armor. IMO, a fast vicious counterattack to disrupt the momentum of the intruders is the best option FOR ME. It may not be for you, and that's okay. I also don't mind having a carbine in arm's reach at all times, and since I don't have kids, it's not a problem.
If I hear a bump in the night, what exactly do I gain by venturing forth into the house? Either I'll need to turn lights on -- giving away my presence and the fact that I'm awake -- or I'll be flashing a handheld or weapon-mounted light, with the same effect.
There is a certain amount of risk vs. reward calculation that needs to go on here. Yes, there could be a team of ninjas who are building WMDs out of the stuff under my sink. Far more likely, though, it's the crackhead trying to steal my big screen plasma TV. Well, I've got insurance. He can have it if he can lift it. Odds are my dog is chewing on his liver before then, anyway.
Room clearing is dangerous specifically because the guy in a static prepared position inside the room has a huge advantage. I want to be that guy. Or perhaps more appropriate to the day, it's a lot more costly to take the beach than keep the beach.
If the "threat" never comes up my staircase, it's not really much of a threat. I can control the access up and down those stairs very well from a position of reasonable cover behind my heavy solid wood bed. If a threat does come up the stairs, then he's no longer a thief, he's an attempted murderer and will be dealt with as such.
Sure, a team of guys who know the layout of my house and have an assault plan would come and get me. But that same team is likely to be at an even bigger advantage if I go hunting them.
The reality is, most of us only go looking for that "bump in the night" when we think it's nothing.
Maybe my home is unusual, but it's full of furniture people can hide behind, hallways with multiple entrances, double blind corners, etc.
edited to add: Ideas of one-man house clearing are often best curtailed by a few force-on-force scenarios.
the rifle safe is partially recessed into the wall inside our master bedroom closet, mostly hidden by clothes. i keep my ARs in there in condition 3, and 1 AR outside hidden behind my hamper and clothes in condition 1. i used to keep the go-to AR in condition 3 as well, but after a few silent night house clearings i realized the sound of racking the weapon would be heard 5 houses down, and i want the element of surprise.
as far as clearing your house- you can't really maintain a policy that you shouldn't clear your house. i can be a little edgy to begin with, and in light of recent problems with new teenage neighbors renting a house down the street i'm more so. my wife has a cat, this is an older house, it's summertime when the house heats up during the day and rapidly cools at night so it pops and creaks and makes noises all on it's own, i have three little boys that talk in their sleep, sometimes walk in their sleep, etc, etc- if i hear noises, i go investigate. i investigate probably 3 or 4 times a week. this involves me alone with an AR... i can't hunker down in the bedroom while the wife calls 911 3 or 4 times a week. clear it and go to bed. for me, this includes crashes and bangs- if there's something that'll make a huge crash if it falls, the cat will find it.
armoring your house seems like a flippin great idea to me. i've thought about making a lot of modifications to my house- i'm also in construction, and my house is always under construction anyway. been remodelling it for almost 2 years. simply filling in a wall with 2x4 will give you a LOT more protection than the 1" total of sheetrock and 3.5" of air that a projectile will normally sail straight through. rip those 2x4s down to 3" and add 1/2" steel plate for even better cover. depending on the layout of your house, you could build up two or three corners pretty easily and have access to cover intruders dont know about.
I have two kids.Assuming it's the middle of the night,"clearing" at least to their rooms in order to secure them is inevitable(assuming they're in their beds).Fortunately they both have rooms off of the same hall as mine.After everyone was in my makeshift "safe room",aka the bathroom(also in the same hall between my room and theirs),i could then hunker down.
Best case scenerio(if you could call it that considering the topic).I would need to secure 4 rooms + the hall and 3 family members.I'm probably pretty lucky as far as those with families go.I can think of alot worse layouts and numbers to have to deal with.
My immediate access "go to" would be an M&P9 and G2L.My dedicated HD AR with an H1 and G2L mounted would be preferable if i have time to get it out/up of course.
My "safe room" is simply a single extrance room with a door that can be secured quickly.There's a row of several drawers that can be opened acting as extra locks/support.I also plan to add a heavier door and a small handgun safe in the near future.
I also keep an extra handgun locked up(w/quick access) on the opposite end of the house from my others.
...I carry(or am in arms reach of) about 1/2 the time when at home.
Edit-I'd add that thankfully the section of the house i would need to clear would be the least likely area to find an intruder.I'm sure that would be of no comfort at the time though.
Failure2Stop
06-06-09, 15:08
Something I forgot in the above post-
Regardless of whether I am working inside an enclosure with a bunch of motivated well trained girlscouts or my home when I hear a window break, I never enter a room in which I know there will be a gunfight unless I have a very good reason, that is to say- for something that I am willing to die for.
My goal is not to shoot-up whoever enters my house. My goal is the preservation of life, my families, my own, and yes, even whoever entered the home unless they pose a threat. Anyway, my goal is containment of the breach. If I have verified that I have identified the room into which entry was gained, I can contain them in that room, denying them access to the rest of the house. I do not need to enter that room, and I would highly recommend against it.
I am in no way advocating single man entries into a fight, and I do not mean to imply that assuming a barricade is left to incompetant wealking pussies. I just don't want my only option to be crouching behind the bed waiting for the door to swing open. There is a whole lot of space between hiding under your covers and diving through doorways, somewhere between the two you will find your band of applicable concepts, backed up by your training.
At least that's how I see it.
I just don't want my only option to be crouching behind the bed waiting for the door to swing open.
That's a great example of how tiny little differences in one person's imaginings vs. another can change things. My bedroom door isn't closed at night. If something moves up my stairs, I'll see it through the bedroom door and my bedroom is specifically "feng shui'd" for that arc of fire.
To throw a wrench in the works, here's another consideration. What if you're in room-X and your spouse/kid/visiting-favorite-rockstar starts screaming for help from another room? Hunkering down and waiting for the fun to find you just became a poor-odds option.
Failure2Stop
06-06-09, 15:35
That's a great example of how tiny little differences in one person's imaginings vs. another can change things.
This brings up a great point- what is your (the generic "your") method of barricading? I used the door-closed example just beacuse it is the worst way to do it and puts you on a bad reaction curve. Simply opening the door for line of sight may (depending on layout and circumstance) provide you with all you need.
What if you're in room-X and your spouse/kid/visiting-favorite-rockstar starts screaming for help from another room? Hunkering down and waiting for the fun to find you just became a poor-odds option.
Yup. That's why I think that there are bands of application. Times and situations to go mobile, times to gain depth and hold, and times to grab hold and go in.
Jay Cunningham
06-06-09, 15:41
Maybe the guy that broke in is a bit of an amateur arsonist, and is pouring gas on your dinner table and trying to get a match lit while you await 911 from your bedroom. No plan survives first contact with the enemy, so the ability to initiate a flexible response is important.
Sumthin to ponder...
My bedroom door isn't closed at night. If something moves up my stairs, I'll see it through the bedroom door and my bedroom is specifically "feng shui'd" for that arc of fire.
I think that's a good point. It's tough when an HGTV-infused wife is involved, but some logical forethought into the placement of stuff in the home can make a big difference. Relatively few of us have a lot of say in the building layout of our homes, but furniture placement and orientation could help a lot. As is, my bed is pretty well "gun-shui'd" to let me see down the hall towards the entryway and even towards the hall on the other side (kids rooms -- that is a big problem) and my living room (which I'd have to cross the entrance to on the way to the kids rooms) doesn't have furniture to hide behind (at least not easily and without making a heckuva lot of noise). My feng-shootit is strong in there until I'm attacked by 2-D invaders.
This brings up a great point- what is your (the generic "your") method of barricading? I used the door-closed example just beacuse it is the worst way to do it and puts you on a bad reaction curve. Simply opening the door for line of sight may (depending on layout and circumstance) provide you with all you need.
I mean it in a very loose sense. My "barricade" is the seventh step of my staircase. At that point, I can see someone's head. If that head doesn't look like it's attached to a body that is legally inside my home, it will be greeted with the glow from my flashlight followed immediately by the glow from my handgun. It's like being at Rogers Shooting Schoo, if you think about it. :cool:
Maybe the guy that broke in is a bit of an amateur arsonist, and is pouring gas on your dinner table and trying to get a match lit while you await 911 from your bedroom. No plan survives first contact with the enemy, so the ability to initiate a flexible response is important.
That's not a scenario I worry too much about. If someone wanted to burn my house down while I'm home, he'd be much more likely to do it from the outside. Breaking in past the layers of security and risking an armed confrontation seems like a low-probability approach to torching someone's home.
Jay Cunningham
06-06-09, 16:39
That's not a scenario I worry too much about.
I can't say that I worry about any scenario! :p
However, stranger things have happened and the one thing that I am confident in is that an armed confrontation will probably not go as I "planned" it.
I recently read something that stuck with me from Pete Blaber's book The Mission, The Men, and Me. The lesson is the difference between *planning* and *preparation.* They may seem like the same thing, but the main point conveyed by Blaber was that it is far more important to be prepared than to "have a plan". Not specifically directed at anyone in the thread, just a concept I wanted to share that left an impression on me - and made an awful lot of sense.
For some of us, calling 911 will get you a response by a part time officer who has had minimum state required training. Count them, one. Although the sight of red and blues in the driveway after a 20 min response time will be comforting, it ain't exactly Air Cav. If my daughter screams from the first floor, I will have to run down to the fight, that's just my job.
All I can do is prepare and hope it never happens.
QuietShootr
06-06-09, 22:45
Random thoughts:
The sergeant of the night shift (a good friend) around here has a key and code to my (detached) garage, where there's a refrigerator, Cokes, and coffee, and a standing invitation to go in there, bring the other guys, and get a free drink 24/7. Having randomly occurring cop cars in your driveway at all hours of the day and night is a help with deterrence.
That said - I don't count on them to save my ass, and conversely, they know to call first if they're going to approach the house.
Anyway, truth: there's a Condition 1 MK18 leaning against the coffee table my laptop is sitting on as I type this, and the perimeter sensors are armed, both four-legged and electronic. My wife is in the master bedroom on the other side of the house, armed with her P7 and three spare magazines.
I"m okay :-) At least, it would be difficult to breach my perimeter with stealth. A high-speed breach would be possible, but it would meet roadblocks unspecified to give me time to react to it.
This is a great thread , thanks.
One thing that I do is keep a house key attached to a chem light in the nightstand. The idea , among other things , is to toss it out the window so the responding LEO's have another option when they decide how to enter the home .
I've given this alot of thought over the years. Here's my take. In a home invasion scenario, you are at a disadvantage, even if you have a theoretical firepower advantage. In the above mentioned scenario, with the criminal kicking in the door. . Make entry catching the homeowner off guard, locating the homeowner rapidly, and then overwelm them physically.
Another possible scenario is a criminal who makes entry undetected and is first discovered with you lieing on your back in bed. Considering the criminal is choosing the time and method you're at a tremendous disadvantage. I think the most important thing is having a weapon at arms reach. Probably it is more realistic that your home will be burglarized when its onoccupied.
As far as an overall plan, generally I try to impede a would be intruder. Anything that serves as a deterent,makes him rethink, causes him to make considerable noise or slows him down benefits me. I don't live in a fortress, but have made considerable allowances for security. Another thing I'm considering is putting a re-inforced door with a heavy duty lock in my bedroom because I feel that is were I'm the most vulernable, and it is were I keep a considerable amount of my valuables.
Room clearing is dangerous specifically because the guy in a static prepared position inside the room has a huge advantage. I want to be that guy. Or perhaps more appropriate to the day, it's a lot more costly to take the beach than keep the beach.
If the "threat" never comes up my staircase, it's not really much of a threat. I can control the access up and down those stairs very well from a position of reasonable cover behind my heavy solid wood bed. If a threat does come up the stairs, then he's no longer a thief, he's an attempted murderer and will be dealt with as such.
Todd,
Well said.
That was one of the many nuggets of information my wife and I took away with us from a "Bump in the Night" training class we did a couple of weeks ago that was hosted by the folks from Tiger Valley (http://www.tigervalley.com/).
It became quickly apparent that our original plan of clearing the house was just not feasible or necessary. There is no reason what so ever that we would need to clear our living/dining/kitchen area, it is full of stuff. Stuff has insurance covering it.
Where my wife and I have a problem though is we need to gather our three kids up and retreat to our barricade positions. The problem we run into is clearing two bedrooms, a bathroom, and a linen closet, all while covering the hallway into the living room and the laundry room/door to the garage, and gathering three small kids, (7 and under). We've eased the task pretty considerably by carefully placing some mirrors in the kids bedrooms, we can see the blind spots from the doorway now.
We're also rethinking our barricade positions. My wife's is behind the safe door with her Surefire equipped 870 laid over the top of the door. My position is currently behind a couple of full bookcases looking down the hallway. I am giving serious consideration to adding another rifle safe between the book cases. I figure that should provide some nice armor as well as alleviate the overcrowding in our current safe.
Semper Fi
Were my wife and I have a problem though is we need to gather our three kids up and retreat to our barricade positions.
As I mentioned to F2S in a PM, one thing that has been proven beyond a doubt in this thread: children are totally untactical.
I think that training opens up some options while indicating that others are inapplicable. While I do not want to have to devise numerous home defense plans (execute "Blue Charle 2"!), I do reserve options based on the situation.
Of course, during offensive military operations we have the ability to push multiple trained shooters simultaneously through a door, so the concept of having a single shooter making solo entry is unnecessary and overly risky. We are also generally operating in an environment in which most of the actual layout of the enclosure is unknown and the number of hostile armed threats can be guessed at depending on the level of hastiness of which the clearance must be achieved. Really, comparing military offensive operations to checking you own home for ne'er-do-wells is almost (but not quite) apples to oranges. Even when bringing the comparison to a more equal level, comparing domestic SWAT clearing methods to military methods uncover some pretty drastic differences. These differences are primarily due to very different threat profiles.
If the invaders are as well armed and fanatically motivated as the people we kinetically pacify in current military campaigns, you can pretty much count on losing the fight unless you have a bunch of equally determined pipe-swingers at your side. I would venture to say that the dudes that are breaking in to steal your plasma screen TV and PlayStation are probably not going to fit that profile. However, there are several different kinds of people that may try to gain entry into your home for various reasons, each of which should be considered a lethal threat simply because you have no idea what their intentions are or what they are willing to do if given the opportunity. When the window breaks you have no idea if it is some kid that wants to steal some junk to pawn for pot or a psycho that wants to do some awful shit to your family. The more people that gain entry, the worse the outcome. The more time the invaders have unchallenged, the worse the outcome. Presence of females in the home- worse outcome. Unsuccessful defensive fight- worse outcome.
Barricading is a defensive measure, and is the only option for those that lack the will and training to effectively fight. Barricading buys time, exactly how much time is dependant on a lot of factors. I know that within my home/garage/work area there are numerous items that can be used to facilitate entry into any door in a residential structure and others that can be employed to make a room uninhabitable. All it takes is a little experience or creativity- I won't potentially provide details for those with ill intentions.
While I have given advice to some to barricade themselves and call 911, that is because those people will probably be worse off if they do anything else. Exactly what a "barricade" is also variable. You can create a strong point from many different locations. There is nothing to say that you can't leave your wife in the room with the door open for visual connection to you while you move to a more advantageous location to dominate and control more of the structure or entry points.
I want to deprive the intruder(s) of the initiative and force them into a reactive posture. I know the layout of my home, where high-risk items are located, vantage points, the location of light switches, what is under each window, the length of each room, which doors should be open or closed, what corners are empty, etc. There are simple things that one can do with their home to make 90% clearance possible from the door wihtout turning your back to a potential threat. It might **** up the FengShui of the room, but I have no fashion sense anyway, so who cares? I am going to use my knowledge, ability, aggression, and speed in conjunction with my home's layout against the intruder with as much speed and violence (if warranted) as possible. While I would like to have more training in single-man clearing techniques (and I highly recommend that everone that is serious about HD does so), it is simply to get more training in this aspect.
I am in no way whatsoever saying that anyone else in the world should do this. I am accepting much more risk initially in order to gain the initiative, and I am aware of that.
Have a plan. Have a backup plan. Keep your options open. While no plan survives first contact, at least you are working on familiar territory until it goes south. Don't be lazy or complacent, and don't try to create a plan that is so extravagent and intensive that you and the people you live with won't do it every time you investigate something abnormal. If you can't stand confrontation don't make a plan that involves hondo-rolling into every room and dispatching death squads of ninjas with your JackHawk2000. Remember that the cops only show up after they are called or somebody calls in after hearing shots fired. Remember that they take time to show up, and what you are going to do while waiting for them.
Have a fire extinguisher handy.
Well said
This is a great thread!
My 1st layer of defense is of the 4 legged Boxer kind, she alerts when people get anywhere near our house. The 2nd layer being our perimeter alarm system. 3rd layer is me being constantly armed while I'm at home, however, I usually have a pistol w/light beside me rather than on me.
I am of the school of armed, violent and naked approach to secure our upstairs where all the bedrooms are. After that it's 911 and waiting while securing the stairs against anyone who feels the need to venture up them.
What about using electronic ear pro, maybe on the nightstand? They will save your hearing in case there are shots fired and you will still need to listen to your surroundings after in case of multiple threats. If you are in a defensive position or clearing the house they can help amplify noises made by an intruder and may help in pinpointing his position. Food for thought...
NCPatrolAR
06-12-09, 19:47
Should someone come through my front door they can either turn left past my bathroom and into my bedroom or go straight into the living room. Hopefully they would go straight as that would give me time to respond, but then I'm forced into covering two directions by myself. I can't reasonably protect myself from two directions, so I think dictating the fight and moving to contact is my remaining option.
Any clues?
Block one of the two doors with heavy furniture and only use one door to move through the apartment.
Block one of the two doors with heavy furniture and only use one door to move through the apartment.
That's one of the smartest things I've ever wished I thought of on my own. Great point, NC!
Charlie in Texas
06-12-09, 21:38
Todd,
Well said.
That was one of the many nuggets of information my wife and I took away with us from a "Bump in the Night" training class we did a couple of weeks ago that was hosted by the folks from Tiger Valley (http://www.tigervalley.com/).
Good to see someone else from that class over here. That same class had me rethinking my previous plans and past actions where I've tried to clear the house on my own when something tripped the alarm at 3am.
With the layout of my house and the lack of children, my plan has also changed such that I'll barricade in the bedroom with cover and good line of sight to the stairs. From there I control that position and as you said, anyone coming up the stairs gets promoted from thief to attempted murderer. If I need to explore, I can clear 75% of my house from the upstairs loft and using my elevation for advantage.
This is a great thread!
.... ( Snip for brevity) ....
What about using electronic ear pro, maybe on the nightstand? They will save your hearing in case there are shots fired and you will still need to listen to your surroundings after in case of multiple threats. If you are in a defensive position or clearing the house they can help amplify noises made by an intruder and may help in pinpointing his position. Food for thought...
I have been keeping electronic muffs readily available for around 10 years now.
They are around 4th on the list of stuff to grab , time permiting. When I lived in another state , there was a large mirror carefully placed and part of the plan was break the mirror with a round --- scattering glass in the hallway.
Crunch ... crunch....
:eek:
MuzzleBreak
06-20-09, 08:09
As far as having your own weapons used against you, I have this to add:
Leave a twelve gauge shotgun and ten gauge shells lying in a place with other high value items like computers or jewelry. The burglar will see the shotgun and take it regardless of whether or not he himself is armed. He will try to load it. However, they won't fit, and he'll keep trying to load it, buying you precious time to find him and apprehend him. I mean, if he's going to be armed, I'd rather he be armed with my weapon that he cannot load.
Coming late to this, but one thing to keep in mind is that in a true home invasion robbery, you will have a MAX of 20 seconds before your house is taken over. If you're asleep in bed, how many of those seconds will it take you to become coherent enough to react and grab a pistol? IF, you wake up at all, because more than likely, you won't be awakened until the threats are on top of you screaming at you or shooting you.
Realistically, for home defense, or any other defense for that matter, if your weapon is not on your person, or within arm's reach, you're not going to have it when you need it.
The more realistic home defense scenarios are the drunk banging at the door or the teenage burglar entering your house to steal shit. In those scenarios, you may have time to go to the closet and grab a longarm to deal with any threats.
I think the best plan is the bunker down, wherever you are in the house, look & listen, then react how you feel most appropriate. That could be calling 911 or confronting the person(s) yourself. Always calling 911 is not the best answer and confronting the perpetrators may be suicide in some scenarios. Either way, nothing is 100%.
we have a plan and train towards that, using range time, in the house drills (using either cleared weapons or airsoft guns), being a former officer I train with my wife so she is proficient with OC, baton, and defensive tactics as well as weapons handling.
Being a veteran medic we also include medical scenarios in that as well.
My black lab that lives in the house and 12 ga are always ready to go.
We live in a semi remote location and help is at a minimum 30-45 away, so it is imperative we be able to defend in place and deal with the situation.
1.) Crawl to closet and retrieve G22 with M-3
2.) Get kids out of 2 rooms
3.) Tell said kids to shut up while crawling into bathtub
4.) Wife on phone to 911
5.) Tell kids to be quiet again
6.) Set up at top of steps and keep control of high ground while waiting for PD
7.) Tell kids to be quiet
Mr.Goodtimes
06-27-09, 09:22
we have a plan and train towards that, using range time, in the house drills (using either cleared weapons or airsoft guns), being a former officer I train with my wife so she is proficient with OC, baton, and defensive tactics as well as weapons handling.
Being a veteran medic we also include medical scenarios in that as well.
My black lab that lives in the house and 12 ga are always ready to go.
We live in a semi remote location and help is at a minimum 30-45 away, so it is imperative we be able to defend in place and deal with the situation.
doc, do you trust that you your black lab will actually do anything more then bark and then roll over for a belly rub in the case there is an intruder in the home?
I ask this because i love my black lab to death but, im almost certain that if anybody ever broke in she would bark initially but as soon as they closed within petting distance would just roll over on her back. Ive had friends walk in my front door that shes never met while i was out back and they said she barked and looked pretty vicious till they were like "hey puppy come here" and then she came, and rolled over.
for a defense dog i think id rather have a german shepherd.
MarshallDodge
06-27-09, 12:47
If an intruder came into our house, the first thing he should encounter is our dogs. They are not the attacking type but should alert us to something wrong. The home electronics are not far from the front door and I could use a new system so they are more than welcome to have them. If they decide to head to the bedroom end of the house, there is a narrow hallway that will have to be navigated with a husband and wife team waiting at the other end. This team is armed and is constantly training to be prepared for such a scenario.
Our boy's bedrooms are across from ours so the first thing I do is check to make sure that they are in bed. They are old enough to handle a firearm and have been trained on how to use them but I would only depend on them as a secondary line of defense in case things got totally out of hand. In this case they are pretty resourceful and know where to head in case they need to exit the area.
If I hear a bump in the night, what exactly do I gain by venturing forth into the house? Either I'll need to turn lights on -- giving away my presence and the fact that I'm awake -- or I'll be flashing a handheld or weapon-mounted light, with the same effect.
There is a certain amount of risk vs. reward calculation that needs to go on here. Yes, there could be a team of ninjas who are building WMDs out of the stuff under my sink. Far more likely, though, it's the crackhead trying to steal my big screen plasma TV. Well, I've got insurance. He can have it if he can lift it. Odds are my dog is chewing on his liver before then, anyway.
Room clearing is dangerous specifically because the guy in a static prepared position inside the room has a huge advantage. I want to be that guy. Or perhaps more appropriate to the day, it's a lot more costly to take the beach than keep the beach.
If the "threat" never comes up my staircase, it's not really much of a threat. I can control the access up and down those stairs very well from a position of reasonable cover behind my heavy solid wood bed. If a threat does come up the stairs, then he's no longer a thief, he's an attempted murderer and will be dealt with as such.
Sure, a team of guys who know the layout of my house and have an assault plan would come and get me. But that same team is likely to be at an even bigger advantage if I go hunting them.
The reality is, most of us only go looking for that "bump in the night" when we think it's nothing.
Maybe my home is unusual, but it's full of furniture people can hide behind, hallways with multiple entrances, double blind corners, etc.
edited to add: Ideas of one-man house clearing are often best curtailed by a few force-on-force scenarios.
There are some really good posts on here but I liked Todd's the best. So many good points.... Assesing risk, having a plan, knowing the layout of your residence and your capabilities, are all things that are different for each one of us.
Camera technology is becoming more and more affordable and I have started to research some systems that will allow me to monitor areas of the house, both interior and exterior. This will allow me to have a better view of what is going on from the bedroom.
Failure2Stop
06-27-09, 13:17
So far in this thread we have established two things-
1- Kids are problematic
2- Dogs can be very helpful
The amounts of influence 1 and 2, and exactly how helpful/detrimental they will be seems to lie in preparation.
Who has actually trained their dogs how to deal with an intruder?
I guess some don't need it as they are individually protective, but the thread kinda kicked in the question. Anybody have a good reference for training protective canines? Not looking for a written tranining plan to put in the thread, but I figure some references or links would be nice.
So far in this thread we have established two things-
1- Kids are problematic
2- Dogs can be very helpful
The amounts of influence 1 and 2, and exactly how helpful/detrimental they will be seems to lie in preparation.
Who has actually trained their dogs how to deal with an intruder?
I guess some don't need it as they are individually protective, but the thread kinda kicked in the question. Anybody have a good reference for training protective canines? Not looking for a written training plan to put in the thread, but I figure some references or links would be nice.
In most areas if one looks around hard enough, there is someone who trains dogs for a PD of some sort or as guard dogs. You just have to look, but almost every area will have someone that does. Obviously some will be better than others.
Goodtimes-
my dog is trained as a protection dog not a hunting dog, she will chew you up if you are a threat or one of us gets injured.
German Shepherd was the other breed we considered as well.
One of the most beneficial things that anyone of us could do has only been hit on a couple times. A Dog.
I have a good buddy who is a cop, and his "Baby" is a 200 lb Mastiff/Great Dane Mix. Unless he introduces you to the dog, you will not get out of your car in his yard. We are close friends, and I am one of about 3 people who can come to his house alone and this dog will not bother. I realize this type of dog is not for everyone, but the point is made that dogs are some of the best burglar alarms, burglar deterrents, and best friends that a man could own.
Even a lap dog will alert you of impending danger and buy you precious seconds, and according to my dogs groomer a small dogs bite is 10x's worse than a large breeds. My cop buddy is looking at getting a Fila next and I am thinking hard about one myself after reading up on them. This is an extremely loyal breed.
A true "thieve" has self preservation at the top of his list. He wants to gain the maximum take with the least amount of risk. Enter the dog. Still if he gains entry, he will be looking for loot and probably move slow and deliberate.
As any of you who are LE know, a major percentage of the home invasions involving multiple invaders are drug related crimes. The news will hardly ever say that the house that got invaded was a drug house or someone that owed a dealer money. I would imagine the actual percentage of home invasions where the home owner was completely innocent and caught off guard is very small. It happens, but not that often. Home invasions will most likely be fast and violent events and there may not be time to get out of the bedroom to counter force. A dog could turn them away or slow their progression.
Then you have this guy....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3zBo_My9RU
For my family, this is what I fear the most. The number of wacko people out there seems to get larger by the day. This guy is a true predator and willing to take risk for his objective. I feel that two + dogs are best for him. This is the type that all of your family need to know to always fight and never give up. As Pee Wee Gaskins said in his book, as long as I let them think I would let them live if they did what I said, victims would allow me to do all sorts of evil things to them up till the point that I killed them. There is a lot to be said for that thought process. We should spent as much time teaching our families to defend themselves as we do "prep'n" the house. Let them know that people like this exist, get them comfortable with firearms, get pictures of known sexual predators in your AO for your family to familiarize themselves with, read the local crime reports for events occurring in your AO, and get a couple bad ass dogs. A little prevention goes a long way.
according to my dogs groomer a small dogs bite is 10x's worse than a large breeds.
Me thinks your groomer has never been bitten by a large breed that was truly looking to do damage.
Not to get too sidetracked, but I think the "hide guns all over the house game" is borderline criminal negligence. If you feel the need to be armed, be armed, or have a firearm in easy access close to you.
I think that we, as firearms owners and users, are responsible for taking appropriate and reasonable steps to avoid arming criminals with our weapons. Personally owned weapons are highly unlikely to be legally used against another person to preserve life, unfortunately, stolen guns are virtually guaranteed to be used against another person in a criminal manner. Do your part, lock up guns not in your immediate control.
I agree if what you mean is that we should close our doors when we are home, and lock our doors when we sleep, so that anyone that might be inclined to steal guns has to make an effort (B&E). In some neighborhoods, this might require an alarm system and bars on the doors and windows.
But if you mean that we must keep our guns in a safe all the time because someone might steal them, and that we would be responsible for the crimes they might perpetrate using our guns, then I disagree. We can't frame our lives around what someone might do with something they steal from inside our homes, and which we are legally permitted to own. If you continue along that line of thought (and liberals all do, BTW), then you should not be permitted to own guns at all, they say, besides someone might steal them and cause harm (to a politician or Hollywood star). Right?
When a drug addict goes bump in the night, a gun in the hand is worth 2,000,000 guns in a safe, IMHO.
Me thinks your groomer has never been bitten by a large breed that was truly looking to do damage.
It is actually funny you say that, as she had a problematic ex-police german shepherd turn on her and caused her over 200 stiches. The dog ripped her butt cheek open from my recollection, and she was hospitalized.
She was saying that usually a large dog will just bite and let go; that small breeds have a habit of biting and not letting go, causing a more painful bite.
Ouch!:eek:
I'm pretty sure that would take my wifes Maltese a few days of study work at least.On the other hand...My Husky(i would call a medium sized breed) crushes the bones of small varmints like a bag of chips(NTM the much longer K9's).
...I'd let the little shits gnaw for awhile if given the choice.
Cascades236
07-07-09, 16:44
This is a great thread with a lot of good ideas shared.
Does the castle doctrine, or lack of, play a role in how any of you would respond? I live in a state which wants someone to initiate the imminent threat to my life or serious bodily harm before I address them with the same... IN MY OWN HOME.
Because of that I lean towards the barricade or position of advantage and hold approach. My car is parked out front and if they're coming into my bedroom, or even the hallway leading towards the bedrooms, then they aren't here for the 50" television in my living room and using deadly force is or should be articuable.
That said, these situations are going to be dynamic, and no plan survives first contact so have contingencies. If you take the fight to them use the basic principle of suprise speed and violence of action. Basically: Hit them fast and hit them hard.
Odds are the burglar wanting to make a quick $ will turn tail and run when addressed, will you shoot him...can you shoot him? If he complies with your "Get the F on the ground" directives, have you thought about what you'll do then. If he wants to bring the fight, that's easy.
Another thing to consider; where there is one there is two. It's a basic principal that essentially says that if one bad guy is in your house, there's probably a second (maybe even a third,fourth, etc)..either inside our standing watch outside. Stay sharp until the boys in blue arrive.
One thing that hasn't really been mentioned is using lighting to your advantage. I wish I had a fancy system as another poster who said he has the remote ability to turn on lights...that is highspeed. If you can create an environment that keeps you in the dark but backlights the badguys then you're one up. An example would be night lights in the living room type areas but long dark hallways leading to the bedroom. I read a great paper on this a few years back, I think by Frank Borelli... I'll try and find it.
Some things worth mentiong. I work in law enforcement and the vast majority of burglaries, I mean overwhelmingly, involve either open windows, unlocked doors or door breaching. I can remember ONE burglary that involed the bad guy breaking out a window to make entry. So... lock your doors and windows at night. If you can add some fortification to your door (metal door jams etc) a failed breach attempt is going to afford you some time and might even deter the badguy(s).
And as someone else mentioned. The armed takeover style home invasion robberies generally don't involve citizen good. The "victims" are usually involved in criminal activity themselves, mostly grow operations etc. That of course doesn't mean don't be ready for one because we're all prone to error and when the druggy brings his friends to steal your neighbors weed grow but hits your house instead.. it's go time.
Troutrunner
07-10-09, 00:33
My 2 cents.
I've got little kids and their rooms are on the other side of the house. If there's a problem, I've got to go towards my two little ones and my wife can "hold the beach" in our bedroom. When you have kids, you need a plan, but you'll find a way to get there. Nothings spurs more aggression in me than thoughts of bad people near my kids. We have two pistols in the bedside safe.
Dogs make noise...whether they bite or not, they buy time and make the house less desirable to criminals from all the racket.
From the real world bites I've seen, little dogs "nip" hands and legs. Big dogs bite the Sh*% out of people. Punctures and massive tears occur. Tendons, muscles and flesh easily gone or dangling in seconds.
My favorite quote from people who were bitten is "He/she is really a very good dog." I always ask what kind of dog....90% pit bull easy.
TR
My 2 cents.
I've got little kids and their rooms are on the other side of the house. If there's a problem, I've got to go towards my two little ones and my wife can "hold the beach" in our bedroom. When you have kids, you need a plan, but you'll find a way to get there. Nothings spurs more aggression in me than thoughts of bad people near my kids. We have two pistols in the bedside safe.
Dogs make noise...whether they bite or not, they buy time and make the house less desirable to criminals from all the racket.
TR
AMEN to all that! I don't want to clear my house, and I don't want to enter a room with a bad guy in it...BUT if he's in one of my kid's rooms? Oh man, at that point I AM going into that room, period!
My 2 cents.
I've got little kids and their rooms are on the other side of the house. If there's a problem, I've got to go towards my two little ones and my wife can "hold the beach" in our bedroom.
My wife and I's plan had been something similar till we took a home defense class put on by the folks at Tiger Valley.
One of the points that was stressed repeatedly and that we have incorporated is don't go running off playing Lone Ranger. Work with your wife as a team, cause your eyes can't be everywhere.
We've now reworked our idea to the point where we clear a hallway, bathroom, and the kids rooms together, she covers the likely threat avenues and covers my backside while I am clearing bedrooms and scooping up the kids.
We then retreat back down the hallway and bunker up in safe and secure positions. If the bad guys enter my hallway, they are there to commit harm to my wife and kids. At that point, they will cease being a threat to my family one way or the other.
Semper Fi
Mr.Goodtimes
07-11-09, 10:12
I go to a local college so, i still reap the benefits of living at home... stocked pantry, freezer full of red meat, chicken breast, and fish (every athletes dream), a nice place to live, my own bathroom, they let me come and go as i please, i couldnt ask for anything more.
My dad was a police officer for many years, and we've decided that if there is an intruder in the house, were going to meet him force on force, fast and hard.
with out getting into detail, our house is set up so that anybody comming in from any of the doors, is at a severe disadvantage. we have large open rooms with short hallways. we never realized this until we started going over our home defense plan, but, essentially, our house would be a nightmare to break into.
So essentially, if you open one door in any given room, both downstairs or up stairs, you can see most of that floor. As a result, there arent a lot of blind spots that cant be covered.
I live up stairs with my two sisters, and my dad lives down stairs. What ever he cant see from his bedroom, i can see from either the base of the stairs or the top of the stairs. So essentially, if you come in the front door/try and make it up the stairs, ill shoot you, if you come in the side door or a side window, my old man will shoot you. if you come in the back door/window, well now your really fcked cause we can both see that part of the house.
By Simply going down the base of the stairs, i can not only stop an intruder from making it up the stairs to my siblings, but i can also controll 2/3 of the bottom floor, all from one point.
As far as having your own weapons used against you, I have this to add:
Leave a twelve gauge shotgun and ten gauge shells lying in a place with other high value items like computers or jewelry. The burglar will see the shotgun and take it regardless of whether or not he himself is armed. He will try to load it. However, they won't fit, and he'll keep trying to load it, buying you precious time to find him and apprehend him. I mean, if he's going to be armed, I'd rather he be armed with my weapon that he cannot load.
Extremely bad idea. You've made the scenario much more likely to be lethal, and you will lose in court when they ask you why you left unsecured weapons and ammo that could be used against you around your home, thereby increasing the likelihood you'd have to use deadly force to defend yourself. Or, they don't try to load the weapon, but grab a few things and bug out. You're now out a shotgun, maybe ammo, and you've given a bad guy a weapon to find ammo for when he finds out yours doesn't work.
Bad freakin' idea.
-B
Cascades236
07-18-09, 00:19
Extremely bad idea. You've made the scenario much more likely to be lethal, and you will lose in court when they ask you why you left unsecured weapons and ammo that could be used against you around your home, thereby increasing the likelihood you'd have to use deadly force to defend yourself. Or, they don't try to load the weapon, but grab a few things and bug out. You're now out a shotgun, maybe ammo, and you've given a bad guy a weapon to find ammo for when he finds out yours doesn't work.
Bad freakin' idea.
-B
I don't agree.
It's his house, he is free to leave his firearms where he wants. If a bad guy wants to break into his house and arm himself with those weapons, it's a bad day for him...should have stayed home instead of commiting felonies.
I do however agree with it being bad in regards to giving bad guy a free shotgun should he come and go unscathed.
ColdDeadHands
07-28-09, 09:42
I live out in the country and police needs an average of one hour to respond around here. I have 3 German Shepherds around the house in Kennels - 1 to the left side of the House and 2 behind the house. My Doberman is running the place as he doesn't go after the horses or cats (he does like to kill the annoying possums tho...).
In the house I have a black lab mix that tries to go thru the window if somebody enters the property. There is also a pit bull in the house next to the main entrance in a cage during night. I know he would go completely nuts and tear his cage down if somebody enters the house.
All this gives me plenty of warning and I know by the way the dogs bark if it is a serious situation (somebody on my property trespassing) or not.
We have a pistol on each bedside and a shotgun in the bedroom. If the dogs go completely nuts I will go to the window and see what's going on and then go outside to check it out, most of the time armed with the 12 Gauge. I know I shouldn't but I love my dogs and will protect them, they will do the same for me. I need to get used to leave the house thru the back door as it will give me an advantage at night.
IF I would see 2 or more BG's in my front yard thru the window I would grab as many mags and ammo as I can and wait for them in the kitchen (as I can view both doors from there) and deal with the threats there.
My dogs will tell me a lot about potential positions of the BG's by the way they bark, where they look at & which window they try to get thru.
Sometimes when I forget to let the Doby out at night and something is going on I open the front door a bit to let the pit bull out. Anybody trespassing WILL RUN when they hear him come. I can't imagine a more frightening noise at night as him stomping the ground while he runs after something and growling at the same time. Even if they don't run it's enough of a diversion where I can gain advantage over them.
As you can tell I rely a lot on my dogs to keep my property safe and to help me in the situation of a Home Invasion. People have done so for centuries. I do need to invest in a surveillance system so I can see from the inside of the house what's going on outside.
I live in a tri- level house, and have decided withe my wife that we will defend the upper level of the house. this is where the kids are. I can replace a TV, I can't replace one of them. in order for any one to get at us they have to come up
stairs this is one of those fatal funnel situations and can be defended easily enough
until the police arrive.
I live in a tri- level house, and have decided withe my wife that we will defend the upper level of the house. this is where the kids are. I can replace a TV, I can't replace one of them. in order for any one to get at us they have to come up
stairs this is one of those fatal funnel situations and can be defended easily enough
until the police arrive.
I do hope you have a solid fire escape plan & equipment to get off the 3rd level in the event of a house fire.
yes we do have a fire evac plan, its out the window we go. in our case the third level of our home is not that high off the ground. I think you are thinking three levels stacked. its not like that. we have a meet up spot in the back yard for a quick head count and its out the back gate.
Oh good, clyde. Around here its all slab homes and so if you have 3 levels you don't want to jump out the 3rd level!
I do hope you have a solid fire escape plan & equipment to get off the 3rd level in the event of a house fire.
Thanks for bringing this up, That was a really good curve, I have a couple of different plans that have to roll into the defend the home stead idea. The fire
plan wasn't really part of my defense plan although in place for an emergency.
I'm going to have to start the what ifs again and do some rethinking, Thanks..
BLACK LION
08-03-09, 14:38
I have a "King" Doberman... if you have ever owned one that amounted to an outstanding protector you will know what I mean... I chose this breed for 2 main reasons...they are great with kids and being a protector is something you cannot teach them... it is natural. She has proven this on a few occassions.
If anyone fullfills the impossible and gets through either of the 2 deadbolted doors(only ways in or out) they have her to meet... she will not let them get on the porch without a loud and very distinct bark/howl so if they make it in the door she will really be pissed and in fact frothing at the mouth in anticipation....
From there they get 150 lumens blasted in thier face with a red laser indexed on thier chest... they have only one option at that time before thats the last man made white light they see... I will let the .45 XD give the orders from there with some 117gr IQ hollow points( Yeah I have read all the tests and reviews)...I use the roundds because I share a common all with my neighbor and I want the rounds to go in and stay in.
My daughter and woman remain under close guard by the dog and 12 guage in the back room while I sort the matter out....they will emerge when I say all clear.
Having cameras at the entrances is a good deterrent and useful for identification purposes... I dont rely on them to protect my house.
As mentioned by others I agree this is a great thread!
Reading early on and maybe on another thread on HD someone (and I forgot who) mentioned that they realized there was an intruder when awakened wth a hand over their mouth or around their neck. Fortunately, they fought them off and posted here. I continued reading and noticed many folks here mentioned sleeping with their handgun on the nightstand or the AR leaning against the wall next to the bed it started me thinking along the lines of What IF said weapon was in your face along with the hand around your throat? You know , because you left it in the open?
Seems to me leaving a loaded handgun or rifle nearby may not be such a tactically wise move especially if that happens to be the scenario the cards deal you? As I read further people mentioned their dogs and or gun safes near the bed. If you have neither a safe nor a dog perhaps it is best not to leave a loaded hand gun on the nightstand?
Just curious what you guys think about the loaded gun on the nightstand if you don't have a dog to warn you something is up?
I'm no expert in this area at all. I simply try to do my best to be prepared and I really enjoying reading this type of "what if / how to" type of thread.
Currently I keep my Mossberg 500 riot shotgun under the bed out of sight and loaded with 00 even with a great watch dog sleeping nearby.
What IF said weapon was in your face along with the hand around your throat? You know , because you left it in the open?
If someone is so stealthy that he has entered my home, climbed my stairs, entered my bedroom, and put his hand around my neck without waking me up ... whether or not he also has my pistol from the night stand is really not a particularly major concern.
If an intruder was to make it all the way to that point, my gun in my face with his hand around my throat there is only one option left , fight like hell and try to get to your back up.
Years back Jeff Cooper was on a tv program showing off his house and how it was built to have a defensive upperhand. All the bedrooms, rooms where there are valubles and guns are off of a main hallway. At the end of the hallway there is an iron gate stopping anyone from reaching the people in the house while sleeping. If they try to open the locked gate it will give the home owner more than enough time to take carefull aim and resolve the problem, oh and call the police.
Other things they suggested were inside locking bars for windows or heavy shutters.. Planting thorn bushes around and under windows, I'm doing this next year. Motion lights are great, I have them on all outside entries and my garage.
Of course as mentioned owning a good trained dog. I have a three pound chihuahua, she's small but she can wake the dead, not really what Col. Cooper had in mind though.
A big thing I have to work on is securing my doors. I just bought a house built in the 40's, the doors are big and strong and the frames are solid, then there's big windows in the doors. The nieghborhood has changed since he 40's, I have to put bars on the doors.
I want to make it real hard for someone to get in my house and get to me or my family. If they do get in they are fighting on my terms.
I think the bottom line is that you may not be able to superfortify your house; but there are measures you can take to improve your security and make it harder for a burglar to get in. I mean hardware measures like better locks, alarms, lighting, etc. and software measures like making sure that neither you nor anyone else in your house open a door for a stranger--which is typically how home invasions start.
As for locks, alarms and such--you don't have to buy them all in one day, you can replace things and buy improvements as paychecks allowed--as long as you have half decent locks.
I think the bottom line is that you may not be able to superfortify your house; but there are measures you can take to improve your security and make it harder for a burglar to get in. I mean hardware measures like better locks, alarms, lighting, etc. and software measures like making sure that neither you nor anyone else in your house open a door for a stranger--which is typically how home invasions start.
As for locks, alarms and such--you don't have to buy them all in one day, you can replace things and buy improvements as paychecks allowed--as long as you have half decent locks.
I have no choice but to improve my house when money permits, I'm not making a whole lot these days. I've put new locks on the doors, and improved the outside lighting.
I work third shift security and my gf is home alone with the dogs everynight, all night. We live in a nice area but the crappy part of the city is only a couple miles away. Just yesterday she called me at work because some guy was walking up and down our street and appeared to be up to no good. She called the police, grabbed her .357 and called me.
She may be a little paranoid as we used to live in the ghetto and had a couple things happen there to where we had to find a roomate, big Brad 6'5" ,350 lbs of I'm going to eat your family. We still moved out, crack houses and prostitutes don't make for good nieghbors.
NCPatrolAR
08-31-09, 12:44
When it comes to improving the lighting around your residence make sure you don't create a halo of light. This occurs when all the iluuimination is projected out, away from your residence. When this occurs it permits someone to hide in the shadows immediately beside the home. To combat this, make sure you have lighting that shines directly on the sides of the residence.
For locks, make sure you get a metal cup for the bolt to sit in. Also use screws longer than those provided by the factor to secure the cup and strike plate to the door frame. The longer screws will lock the cup and plate into the wood around the door frame and not the frame itself (which is often the failure pointwhen doors are forced open).
Even though we live in a nice area I'm constantly worried about my gf being home alone at night. I am going on 16 years of security in urban areas and deal with alot of crap all the time. So, I don't know if I'm a bit paranoid when it comes to protecting my own.
I like the bigger screws Idea, good thinkin'!
I have a couple windows I would like to find some kind of functional yet decorative shutters. Those windows are just way to easy to break into, I know I've had to do it already:rolleyes:.
I like this from the BCM catalog :p...
The art of war teaches us to rely not on the likelihood of the enemy's not coming, but on our own readiness to receive him; not on the chance of his not attacking, but rather on the fact that we have made our position unassailable.
-Sun Tzu
For locks, make sure you get a metal cup for the bolt to sit in.
The technical term is a high security or heavy duty box strike. Some door frames aren't wide enough or substantial enough to cut in a box strike. If not, a high security/heavy duty deadbolt strike may be a second-best option. http://magsecurity.com/productlist.aspx?mid=17&id=175
High security box and deadbolt strikes can also be picked up at Lowe's or Home Depot. They should come with longer-than-normal mounting screws. Box strikes usually come with and are best installed using four screws. It's wise to have a professional install any strikes to avoid damaging your door frames or binding up your locks.
NCPatrolAR
09-10-09, 09:08
The technical term is a high security or heavy duty box strike. Some door frames aren't wide enough or substantial enough to cut in a box strike. If not, a high security/heavy duty deadbolt strike may be a second-best option. http://magsecurity.com/productlist.aspx?mid=17&id=175
Someone always has to throw the technical terms out there dont they? ;)
Someone always has to throw the technical terms out there dont they? ;)
Yep, there's one of those jackasses in every crowd. The technical term for it escapes me at the moment... :p
Yeah be careful when adding over-long screws into the frame. I have personally seen frames pulled out of plumb enough that the door latch would no longer engage the plate.
Interesting thread. I haven’t read the previous 5 pages, so excuse me if I repeat some things already mentioned. A few simple things I do, or we do as a family to increase security of our home;
- Kids announce when they are leaving the house, so another family member can escort them to the door and lock it behind them as they leave. This prevents unwanted persons from entering.
- As mentioned, along with the addition of longer screws and beefier locks on main entrance doors, install additional security screen doors to all exterior doors. I call this “security in layers”. For someone to gain access to the main house door, they will first have to gain entry through the security screen door. This additional door robs time from the intruder and increases the chances of him being spotted or heard.
- Security lights mounted out of reach on the front and back of the house. My lights stay on all night, illuminating the exterior of the house along with the yards. To cut costs from the lights running all night, I use “energy saver” security light bulbs. Lights out of reach are harder to disable, and aimed properly, illuminate hiding spots in the yard or vehicles in the driveway, as well as illuminate the house itself.
- Following the “security in layers” concept, beef up security on interior doors that allow entry to your home after entry has been gained from a main exterior door. Many new homes built today have an exterior side door to gain entry to the garage. And in addition to this side garage door, a door in the garage that leads into the house. Increase the security of these doors as well. Add a security screen door to the garage exterior door, and beef up locks and screws to interior garage doors that allow access to the home. The more resistance an intruder has to overcome, to gain entry into your home, the more likely the chance is of them leaving, or at a minimum, it will give you more reaction time in the event of an entry.
- Have a plan for the evening, that the last adult up before going to bed, goes from room to room, double checking doors and windows for security.
- And of course, if possible, have a pet that can alert you of strangers. We have a German Shepherd for this, who will not let anyone approach or enter the house, and roams the house in the evenings. She is my first alert to trouble.
SGT D USMC
09-20-09, 23:34
I am a self made security expert, not that I'm real inteligent. My credentials are that I am a Marine Vietnam veteran With a VA ptsd disability rating of 100%,
or PARINOID . I spend most 0f my time thinking that someone may be sneaking up on me. I worry alot more about when something is coming than what it is acually coming.
After a series of divorces I now live alone In a 650 square foot house. The house has 2 entrances, one of them i have perminitly closed. The other had a glass window in the door. I covered the door with a !/2 inch sheet of plywood with a speakeasy slot where I can look through glass in the door.
The windows all have bars on them, so I don't mind leaving them open at night.
My main system of alarm is in motion alarms. some turn on lights, one in the main aprroch turns on a buzzer inside the house that can be hered outside and also turns on a strope light inside window that is seen outside. I have several security cameras also.
The security cameras and motion detectors are my hobby. they are not very complex but are not the toy security cameras found in most stores. If you want cameras and detectors look for used ones in ebay, get a knowledgeable friend to help you look. security stuff is expensive for new, but good used cameras that have been removed are dirt cheap. Look in ebay for CCTV cameras.
Weapons, I have various and assorted ones, But my hand has molded to fit a 1911 over the years so thats all I consider for in the home. also I have some outside lights that I can turn on manually.
He went into younder village and never returned
Failure2Stop
09-21-09, 11:40
SGT D USMC brings up the point of CCTV, which is a pretty interesting topic I think.
It seems that having a record of the shooting could go a long way in determining if it was or was not a "good shoot". Ex- outside cam records attempted entry by individual(s). Inside cams record actions of individuals and presence of weapons. Actions of homeowner recorded, use of light/target discrimination in evidence.
It makes me think that a CCTV system could be beneficial beyond simply having additional "eyes", should the owner have the ability to install such a system.
I am curious to hear what those familiar with law would have to say regarding use of the CCTV data in court, and those with depth of knowledge on the systems have to say regarding intallation/protection/data storage/power source isolation, etc.
I seem to recall an elderly white homeowner that shot a black teenager on his porch, and his own security video hung him. Anyone else remember that and/or have a link?
NCPatrolAR
09-22-09, 22:44
SGT D USMC brings up the point of CCTV, which is a pretty interesting topic I think.
It seems that having a record of the shooting could go a long way in determining if it was or was not a "good shoot". Ex- outside cam records attempted entry by individual(s). Inside cams record actions of individuals and presence of weapons. Actions of homeowner recorded, use of light/target discrimination in evidence.
It makes me think that a CCTV system could be beneficial beyond simply having additional "eyes", should the owner have the ability to install such a system.
I am curious to hear what those familiar with law would have to say regarding use of the CCTV data in court, and those with depth of knowledge on the systems have to say regarding intallation/protection/data storage/power source isolation, etc.
Speaking from the LE perspective; I've seen video help WAY more people than it harmed. The people that video did harm were typically in the wrong in the first place.
If going with cameras I would suggest having multiple angles working. Sometimes a single angle doesnt capture everything that is going on or gives a misrepresentation of the event.
Seems like the combination of multiple layers of delay ( barriers that must be broken ) and video would help to establish clear criminal activity & intent by the home invader. I believe that more evidience will usually favor the trained defender . The sooner the defender can be cleared of any wrong-doing , the better .
Romeo Foxtrot
09-24-09, 10:07
Assuming you had the equipment in your yard to detect someone before they actually entered your home; motion detectors, cameras etc.
How would it look if someone tripped a motion detector in your backyard that is surrounded by an 8 foot privacy fence and locked gates; you seem them on camera walking around trying to find an unlocked door/easy point of entry... they are armed. So you grab your gun and go outside to meet them and stop them before they gain entrance?
How would this appear in court? especially if you shot the guy/guys.
It seems like if you had the proper training that this would be an ideal way to confront a threat. You confront the threat at a point where he's not expecting anyone to be confronting him.. yet. When he comes through that door, hes probably expecting someone to possibly hear him/become aware of his presence... but not in a fenced back yard where hes made no noise yet...
If you moved in an aggressive (albeit defensive) manor to stop a threat from entering your home, would this be certain jail time? would one be viewed as some sort of gun toting nut job vigilante looking for a fight?
NCPatrolAR
09-24-09, 10:41
Assuming you had the equipment in your yard to detect someone before they actually entered your home; motion detectors, cameras etc.
How would it look if someone tripped a motion detector in your backyard that is surrounded by an 8 foot privacy fence and locked gates; you seem them on camera walking around trying to find an unlocked door/easy point of entry... they are armed. So you grab your gun and go outside to meet them and stop them before they gain entrance?
How would this appear in court? especially if you shot the guy/guys.
It seems like if you had the proper training that this would be an ideal way to confront a threat. You confront the threat at a point where he's not expecting anyone to be confronting him.. yet. When he comes through that door, hes probably expecting someone to possibly hear him/become aware of his presence... but not in a fenced back yard where hes made no noise yet...
If you moved in an aggressive (albeit defensive) manor to stop a threat from entering your home, would this be certain jail time? would one be viewed as some sort of gun toting nut job vigilante looking for a fight?
This is just my view, but I don't think it's wise to leave your residence to confront someone you know is armed. To me it would be better to dial 911 and get the police on the way and then prepare to stop an entry attempt to the residence. By leaving the residence you are giving up several key advantages.
So you grab your gun and go outside to meet them and stop them before they gain entrance?
Why?
Unless the guy has a can of kerosene and a torch, he's not a threat to you in your yard. That's what doors & locks are for, after all. Way too many possibilities that he isn't a deadly threat (or any threat at all). Call the police.
Risk to you is practically nil at this point. Why elevate the threat by chasing him around in the dark outside where you give up all the advantages you have (or should have) defending from a hardened position in your home?
Romeo Foxtrot
09-24-09, 13:20
This is just my view, but I don't think it's wise to leave your residence to confront someone you know is armed. To me it would be better to dial 911 and get the police on the way and then prepare to stop an entry attempt to the residence. By leaving the residence you are giving up several key advantages.
Why?
Unless the guy has a can of kerosene and a torch, he's not a threat to you in your yard. That's what doors & locks are for, after all. Way too many possibilities that he isn't a deadly threat (or any threat at all). Call the police.
Risk to you is practically nil at this point. Why elevate the threat by chasing him around in the dark outside where you give up all the advantages you have (or should have) defending from a hardened position in your home?
you guys both bring up good points. Something I didnt think of... If one has cameras and motion detectors outside... not only would that alert you but you would know right where he is at all times... If hes comming in youll know right where hes going to enter and can go from there.
As already stated, I think it would be both tactically and legally unwise to leave your residence to confront someone unless they were about to burn your house down or posing a threat to a family member or friend outside of your house.
It is hard to argue that you were in fear of your life when you left the safety of your locked home to confront someone.
SGT D USMC
09-24-09, 14:07
My cameras and motion detectors are to alert me so that I will be awake, armed and know what or who is coming. I don't cloud my mind with legality beyound the requirement for them to shoot from outside or to break in to my house. I don't worry about the type of ammunition I use, the number of times that I shoot or if carring a double action revolver if I happen to cock the hammer first. I also have ran out of wifes, my children are grown and gone and I have no one else to protect.
I belive that to servive you must have as few options to consider as posible before you fire. The shorter your rules of engagement are the sooner you get off the shot. that includes collateral damage , legal exposure and gadgets on your weapon.
I was a young Marine in Vietnam, I carried A m-14 My constant worry was that contact would be made at extreame short range. My only rule of engagement was identify take off safty shoot. yes we always carried the M-14 on safty unless there was a great chance of close contact, a negligent discharge shoots your buddies and warns your enemy. Then m -16's came along and it is one of the fastest rifles on target around. So people ruin it as they attach options and weight.
I think that time would be well spent to determine your shortest rules of engagement that enables you and your loved ones to servive and also prevents murder, then keep al the rest out of your mind.
Cascades236
09-24-09, 17:27
Assuming you had the equipment in your yard to detect someone before they actually entered your home; motion detectors, cameras etc.
How would it look if someone tripped a motion detector in your backyard that is surrounded by an 8 foot privacy fence and locked gates; you seem them on camera walking around trying to find an unlocked door/easy point of entry... they are armed. So you grab your gun and go outside to meet them and stop them before they gain entrance?
How would this appear in court? especially if you shot the guy/guys.
It seems like if you had the proper training that this would be an ideal way to confront a threat. You confront the threat at a point where he's not expecting anyone to be confronting him.. yet. When he comes through that door, hes probably expecting someone to possibly hear him/become aware of his presence... but not in a fenced back yard where hes made no noise yet...
If you moved in an aggressive (albeit defensive) manor to stop a threat from entering your home, would this be certain jail time? would one be viewed as some sort of gun toting nut job vigilante looking for a fight?
Too difficult of a question for any of us here to answer. A situation like this would most likely be investigated to death and then referred to the prosecutor for charges.
That said, if you want a legit answer, you'll have to talk to your local prosecutor. He has the ultimate decision in wether or not to pursue charges. Some regions have been notorious for pursuing anyone and everything and some have prosecutors that still remember that this world is a vicious place and that none of us should be victimized.
Armed guy outside of my house? I'm not giving up my positional advantage (cover/concealment) to go address for him. If he wants a gunfight, I'll wait to see if he comes in. If he does, well then he gets to see what my violence of action looks like. Then, it will be a shooting and not a gun fight :)
One last point, what if the guy outside is your neighbor looking for someone he just caught breaking into his car or something similar? What if the guy has a buddy you haven't seen? Where there is 1... there is 2.
Cincinnatus
09-25-09, 12:31
When my daughter is born I will have to re-think this, and when she gets to be a teenager (or even just walking out of her bedroom in the middle of the night by herself) I will REALLY have to rethink this.
Just wanted to splash some cold water on all of the folks that think that clearing a building by yourself is something that is trivial or easy, it is neither.
In my situation, I have a small son who sleeps in a room in the opposite side of the house, this changes my situation so that I must go and get him while my wife and daughter hole up in the safe room with a cell phone. I cannot afford to let my boy be left abroad with a thug stalking the house and him possibly running out in fright to cross a line of fire. Thus I must respond fast and mean and an alarm system, as someone else mentioned, is a great thing to have to scare and disorient the assailant as well as wake your own ass up. As far as being half asleep--this might be the case when you hear a bump outside the house, you could be groggy in your response, but when an alarm blares, which has happened to me, you'd be surprised how fast adrenaline clears out cobwebs.
For this situation (with loved ones sleeping in other parts of the house) target identification is priority 1. You must flash your white light to be sure its not someone else who lives with you up for a midnight snack, etc. Does that give the BG time to shoot you? Probably, but can you afford the alternative?
Great thread all. Let's keep it going.
ColdDeadHands
09-25-09, 16:06
As I mentioned before, get a good dog...it will let you know where the intruders are or where they are trying to get in. Whenever something goes "bump" at night I know for sure that it isn't in my house but outside...when my Doberman isn't running the place I let my totally sweet with me ,my wife and our other animals but obnoxious with anybody else he doesn't know Pit Bull out the door. He will find whatever it is that's outside in very short time. This will let me decide what action to take. I might go outside, if I do I'm armed and have white light available. Call me stupid for my plan of action but I live miles away from the closest Police Station and when I called them in the past they took over an hour to respond every time. When my wife and I moved onto our property the Sheriff told us to be prepared to take care of ourself.
btw; I keep a 5 hour energy on my bed stand...that shit will wake you up in seconds.
Romeo Foxtrot
09-25-09, 16:12
btw; I keep a 5 hour energy on my bed stand...that shit will wake you up in seconds.
I thought i was the only one who did this. I dont use 5hr energy though... I keep a redline by the bed.
Redline is somewhat like liquid, good tasting, Crystal Meth in a can. It will take you from "0" to "ready to kick some ass" in about a minute.
ColdDeadHands
09-25-09, 18:50
liquid, good tasting, Crystal Meth in a can. It will take you from "0" to "ready to kick some ass" in about a minute.
:D:D:D
NCPatrolAR
09-25-09, 19:08
As I mentioned before, get a good dog...it will let you know where the intruders are or where they are trying to get in. Whenever something goes "bump" at night I know for sure that it isn't in my house but outside...when my Doberman isn't running the place I let my totally sweet with me ,my wife and our other animals but obnoxious with anybody else he doesn't know Pit Bull out the door. He will find whatever it is that's outside in very short time. This will let me decide what action to take. I might go outside, if I do I'm armed and have white light available. Call me stupid for my plan of action but I live miles away from the closest Police Station and when I called them in the past they took over an hour to respond every time. When my wife and I moved onto our property the Sheriff told us to be prepared to take care of ourself.
btw; I keep a 5 hour energy on my bed stand...that shit will wake you up in seconds.
Question......... if you knew someone was outside, would you still go out to confront them?
ColdDeadHands
09-25-09, 19:55
Question......... if you knew someone was outside, would you still go out to confront them?
I guess it depends on the situation. If it was 1...probably, my dogs will let me know if there is 1 or more. Theft is increasing weekly in the area and we have some high $$ Arabians. But I'm not alone, my wife knows how to use any of the firearms we have in the house very well and she'd rather shoot someone then have one or more of her horses stolen. However, I like to think that the "victims of society" will pick a easier place to steal from and that I don't have to confront anybody.
btw; I keep a 5 hour energy on my bed stand...that shit will wake you up in seconds.
I never thought of this before. 5-hour-energy does shit for me, personally, but I understand the idea.
Question: aren't home invasions measured in seconds? Would an energy drink even be finished by the time you needed to be grabbing a gun?
-B
NCPatrolAR
09-25-09, 22:17
I guess it depends on the situation. If it was 1...probably, my dogs will let me know if there is 1 or more. Theft is increasing weekly in the area and we have some high $$ Arabians. But I'm not alone, my wife knows how to use any of the firearms we have in the house very well and she'd rather shoot someone then have one or more of her horses stolen. However, I like to think that the "victims of society" will pick a easier place to steal from and that I don't have to confront anybody.
Follow up
if you knew they were armed? And; at what point would you call the police?
ColdDeadHands
09-26-09, 08:23
I never thought of this before. 5-hour-energy does shit for me, personally, but I understand the idea.
Question: aren't home invasions measured in seconds? Would an energy drink even be finished by the time you needed to be grabbing a gun?
-B
Most of them might be. Not on my property tho...unless they make a lot of noise and kill the dogs.
First they need to deal with the gate at which point my dogs will go completely nuts, then they need to deal with the Doby or Shepherd outside, after that they need to go thru 2 locked Doors and....if they make it that far they need to deal with our 2 Dogs inside...a Pit Bull and a Lab Mix...both will bite.
I figure in a violent Home Invasion where they shoot the dogs and make a lot of noise in the process it will take them at least 2 - 3 minutes to get into the House.
If the intruders want to be quiet and sneaky...they'll pic a different house.
ColdDeadHands
09-26-09, 08:39
Follow up
if you knew they were armed? And; at what point would you call the police?
My wife will call 911 as soon as we know there's somebody outside. And yes, I would confront them outside the House if I saw a gun or a knife. Call me armchair commando or whatever you wish. But this is my property...I know where the lights and the shadows are and can use them to my advantage. A surprise confrontation will do me much better then waiting in the bedroom for them to come in and to give them lots of time to kill all my dogs. I have enough dogs in Kennels that I can let loose and they will distract the intruders which will give me another advantage.
I also don't think waiting in a designated room in case of a HI is the smartest thing to do...there are just as many risks as if you go hunt for the invaders.
What if you and your family wait in the bedroom, 2 intruders come in, you shoot them both...you figure the thread is gone...you go outside to check it out but you missed one of them. In my situation there there is no 'best' thing to do. So I'll do whatever I decide when something happens is best at the moment.
Romeo Foxtrot
09-26-09, 14:20
My wife will call 911 as soon as we know there's somebody outside. And yes, I would confront them outside the House if I saw a gun or a knife. Call me armchair commando or whatever you wish. But this is my property...I know where the lights and the shadows are and can use them to my advantage. A surprise confrontation will do me much better then waiting in the bedroom for them to come in and to give them lots of time to kill all my dogs. I have enough dogs in Kennels that I can let loose and they will distract the intruders which will give me another advantage.
I also don't think waiting in a designated room in case of a HI is the smartest thing to do...there are just as many risks as if you go hunt for the invaders.
What if you and your family wait in the bedroom, 2 intruders come in, you shoot them both...you figure the thread is gone...you go outside to check it out but you missed one of them. In my situation there there is no 'best' thing to do. So I'll do whatever I decide when something happens is best at the moment.
excellent post, I agree.
NCPatrolAR
09-27-09, 15:56
My wife will call 911 as soon as we know there's somebody outside. And yes, I would confront them outside the House if I saw a gun or a knife. Call me armchair commando or whatever you wish. But this is my property...I know where the lights and the shadows are and can use them to my advantage. A surprise confrontation will do me much better then waiting in the bedroom for them to come in and to give them lots of time to kill all my dogs. I have enough dogs in Kennels that I can let loose and they will distract the intruders which will give me another advantage.
Probably not what I would opt to do, but its your choice. I think, and this would vary state to state, that you could be causing legal problems for yourself by forcing a confrontation away from your residence. Also, as stated before you give up several advantages by going out of the residence.
I also don't think waiting in a designated room in case of a HI is the smartest thing to do...there are just as many risks as if you go hunt for the invaders.
What are the risks you see by going to a "safe room" and locking it down?
What if you and your family wait in the bedroom, 2 intruders come in, you shoot them both...you figure the thread is gone...you go outside to check it out but you missed one of them.
I wouldnt exit outside to "check things out" if I had just fired on two home invaders in the first place. I'd hold what I had inside the residence and wait for the arrival of first responders.
I believe that staying inside the house is usually ( OK , almost always ) the best action.
People have posted several significant issues connected with leaving the house to hunt the invaders. Another issue is an increased potential for fraticide.
But this is my property...I know where the lights and the shadows are and can use them to my advantage.
What if they have flashlights and are willing to use them?
What if there are just more of "them" than you originally thought when you slipped outside into the shadows? That's why LEOs call in trained teams to deal with barricaded subjects. Because being in a secured, thought out defensive position is a force multiplier.
A surprise confrontation will do me much better then waiting in the bedroom for them to come in and to give them lots of time to kill all my dogs.
While I wince at the idea of the dogs getting whacked, for "them" to take out four aggressive and territorial dogs is probably going to result in casualties. Why not let the dogs weaken your opponent, forcing "them" to fight hard (and make noise) on their way to your protected position?
What if you and your family wait in the bedroom, 2 intruders come in, you shoot them both...you figure the thread is gone...you go outside to check it out but you missed one of them.
Why would I go outside to poke around? Hell, why would I leave my protected position -- which just proved to be effective -- at all until reinforcements arrive?
Romeo Foxtrot
09-28-09, 08:19
What if they have flashlights and are willing to use them?
What if there are just more of "them" than you originally thought when you slipped outside into the shadows? That's why LEOs call in trained teams to deal with barricaded subjects. Because being in a secured, thought out defensive position is a force multiplier.
While I wince at the idea of the dogs getting whacked, for "them" to take out four aggressive and territorial dogs is probably going to result in casualties. Why not let the dogs weaken your opponent, forcing "them" to fight hard (and make noise) on their way to your protected position?
Why would I go outside to poke around? Hell, why would I leave my protected position -- which just proved to be effective -- at all until reinforcements arrive?
my big concern would be once they know where i am... what/will they possibly chuck into the room im in?
i dont know of any home invasion thats gone this far but.... what if they had some of those little mace grenades... what about stuff they really shouldnt have like flash bangs or stun grenades? maybe they know you have some nice guns and they are really, really determined to get them.
I think the above is pretty funny, and pretty damn ridiculous... but that would be my reasoning for moving, or not staying still.
Im sure a multiple threat shootem up home invasion involving multiple armed determined opponents wielding flash bangs and wearing ski masks would be a pure dirty wet dream for some people, fact of the matter is; short of being a high pimpin drug dealer or this country being invaded; it's not gonna happen.
It could happen though if your Jack Ryan... he got in a huge fight with ninjas once before.
A group of people with the forethought, access, and wherewithal to bring room-clearing equipment to a home invasion probably also has the forethought, access, and wherewithal to bring gear/training that would make them even more dangerous to deal with out in the open.
Having been next to a few flashbangs that popped in a wide open area, it's still not exactly something you ignore. While I've never been on the receiving end of an OC grenade, given their apparent effectiveness at outdoor venues against protesters, one must assume it's not something you'd ignore, either.
Again, this is all an argument in favor of having a secured, sealed safe room.
Now, if the team of highly trained attackers that is trying to steal your stereo and television has houligan tools in addition to their flashbangs, OC grenades, full-auto rifles, body armor, and encrypted comms ... it may be time for you to rethink your career.
A group of people with the forethought, access, and wherewithal to bring room-clearing equipment to a home invasion probably also has the forethought, access, and wherewithal to bring gear/training that would make them even more dangerous to deal with out in the open.
Having been next to a few flashbangs that popped in a wide open area, it's still not exactly something you ignore. While I've never been on the receiving end of an OC grenade, given their apparent effectiveness at outdoor venues against protesters, one must assume it's not something you'd ignore, either.
Again, this is all an argument in favor of having a secured, sealed safe room.
Now, if the team of highly trained attackers that is trying to steal your stereo and television has houligan tools in addition to their flashbangs, OC grenades, full-auto rifles, body armor, and encrypted comms ... it may be time for you to rethink your career.
Must be one bad ass stereo and TV
SGT D USMC
09-29-09, 01:02
You never know. I had a bunch of communist try to kill me.
Cincinnatus
09-29-09, 12:12
You never know. I had a bunch of communist try to kill me.
Here in the US? I mean, were they domestic commies attacking you in your home or foreign pinkos in a warzone? :confused:
Reminds me of a favorie running cadence: "How's a Russian commie Die? 556 round in his eye!"
SGT D USMC
09-29-09, 13:05
These commies were V.C. and sometimes NVA. ------------Gotcha!
___________________________________
he went into younder village and never returned
Dirk Williams
10-02-09, 13:58
Interesting thoughts. What interest's me is the specific weapons chosen by everybody. My concern is simple If I exit my bedroom with my chosen weapon say an M4/AK and have to actually shoot down the hallway, I'm shooting right into my neighbors bedroom.
Granted there's an outer wall, a fence, and then their wall but there's also a window directly across from my window. 15 yards. Until my grandson was born I kept an AK and a .1911 next to the bed with soft armor for the wife and me under the bed. I also have two gas masks on a shelf in the closet.
Both have had to go into the gun box. I struggled with this for along time, and Finally opted for a shotgun. "Super 90" with extra rounds on the stock and in the stock.
No lights just simple and effective. I also opted for heavy duck loads with the last two being #4 buck and 2 in the stock being slugs.
Many years ago my son's girlfriends father kicked the **** out of the his wife, both fled to my house for saftey. S/O was notified and I kept the doors locked and a couple of weapons handy.
Sure enough around midnight, daddy dumb **** shows up drunk with a model 39 tucked into his pants. Had two options take it to him, or stand by keep the peace and call the S/O.
I opted for the sheriff's office, who arrived really fast and spanked this turd.
In reviewing my actions I made two huge mistakes that could have been deadly. The turds wife and daughter were sleeping in the livingroom in front of the house adjcent to the front door, my wife and two children at the rear of the house.
I realized to late that I now potentially had to defend two rooms, rather then one. After his arrival I could not move his wife and daughter because of the plate glass windows, he would or could have seen or heard their movement.
I'm glad I made the choice I did regarding calling the SO and not engaging unless I had to. The guys wife returned and within a week I was the prick who was gonna shoot the love of her life for no good reason.
The laws these days are screwed. OUR world has changed, sadly I don't think it's for the better.
Dirk
decodeddiesel
10-02-09, 14:36
Interesting thoughts. What interest's me is the specific weapons chosen by everybody. My concern is simple If I exit my bedroom with my chosen weapon say an M4/AK and have to actually shoot down the hallway, I'm shooting right into my neighbors bedroom.
Granted there's an outer wall, a fence, and then their wall but there's also a window directly across from my window. 15 yards. Until my grandson was born I kept an AK and a .1911 next to the bed with soft armor for the wife and me under the bed. I also have two gas masks on a shelf in the closet.
Both have had to go into the gun box. I struggled with this for along time, and Finally opted for a shotgun. "Super 90" with extra rounds on the stock and in the stock.
No lights just simple and effective. I also opted for heavy duck loads with the last two being #4 buck and 2 in the stock being slugs.
Dirk
Don't take this as a flame, but given what you have stated in this post have you actually read this thread? There a lot of very dangerous misconceptions and misunderstandings which seem to have permeated your home defense plans.
Please allow me to rehash a few items:
5.56 (or .223) has far far less over penetration concerns than buckshot or pistol rounds. This has been scientifically proven time and time again by the FBI, the military, and numerous big city SWAT teams. This is also the reason why entry teams have forgone the 9mm MP5s in favor of short barreled ARs. If you are worried about over penetration then 5.56 is the answer, and shotgun slugs are about the worst thing imaginable.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881
http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/wall-penetration.htm
(NOTE: We don't see what those projectiles do to a target AFTER they hit the walls which is the whole point.)
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33935
Birdshot is for birds, PERIOD. I don't care if it's a duck load, or a goose load, or whatever. Would I want to get hit with it? Hell no. Has it proven to be ineffective in stopping bad guys time and time again? YES
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958
(NOTE: The FBI states in order to be most effective on a human target projectiles must through 12"-18" of 10% calibrated ballistic gel. #4 BUCKSHOT and above were the only loads to consistantly do this)
A white light either attached to your weapon, or near by so that you can carry it in your support hand is absolutely critical. Target identification is impossible without a white light and engaging something you thought was a threat and turns out to be a child getting a glass of milk is a mistake that will torment you your whole life.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=16114
Shotguns make OK home defense choices. The problems are lowered capacity and heavy recoil. A 5.56 round fragmenting in the chest cavity at close range will cause nearly as much damage as a '00 buskshot load.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34569
Give what I have posted a read, you might be surprised at what you learn.
Dirk Williams
10-02-09, 16:00
No worries, Thanks for the series of lessons. Ive read simular stuff over the years. I remember in the mid 80's when LASD and LAPD started to carry M4's in their stacks. Very contraversial, yet the right thing to do. There is no doubt that I made mistakes in the shared actual event.
I attempted to frankly share them for others consideration. Hopefully they won't make the same mistakes. The truth is I really didn't think the guy would actually come to a cops house armed. Silly me.
My initial instinct was to exit the residence and engage said shit head, I believe I made the right choice morally, ethically, and legally. That being said had the turd actually entered the residence, things would have been different. WE could play wooda shooda coulda all day long.
I'm not saying my choice of weapon is the only right answer, or that the M4 is the wrong choice of weapons. I can say that Ive seen my fair share of people shot with shotguns close up, Most were DRT, I don't know if it was buckshot or bird shot, some were hunters who had accidental discharges or their dogs somehow accidently engaged the trigger.
The most recent was a teenager who had upset a young man " His peers" who shot him with a pump gun. Your right he made it several yards before he to was DRT. Birdshot from 17 yards. "4 weeks ago"
Last year another group of kids shot a kid at a local hotel six times Yup bird shot, once again the vic was DRT. Maybe 20 yards Maybe that was two years ago, I try hard not to remember this shit.
If were talking about the issue in open dialog then were all learning from each other. I admit I made a mistake, By the grace of god I was able to learn from it.
I don't know anybody in the business or who is a serious student who hasn't made a tactical mistake. It happens.
Defending ones home takes on a whole new set of unique issues with family present. Just a thought, I think that if a professional gun fighter is put in this shitty situation they think differently.
More of an emotional based response, cuz they are fighting for everything that means anything to us, our families.
Doesn't matter if were carring a Shotgun, an M-4, a Glock or a 240G. What matters is that whatever weapon you have you have to make it work period.
Based on the info provided I am going to make a change. I am going to run 2 and 4 buckshot rather then lead #2's. Thank you again.
Dirk.
Dirk, people die from 22's and 25's as well. Does that mean they should be relied upon for defensive purposes? Use a Raven and a Ruger 10/22 as primary defensive arm?
The idea is to get the job done as efficiently as possible. Currently, 5.56 SP's or HP's are the means to do that. The examples you've provided are anecdotes, and not considered to be the standard that is observed when the whole picture of more results than that are shown. You aren't relaying how many cases where birdshot merely wounded the person instead of incapacitating them. . Those don't make as good a story.
Dirk Williams
10-03-09, 01:35
The story was not shared for personal gratification. The story was shared to assist in making others aware that it really doesn't take a sexy M4 with rails and auto bolt groups, and maxi mags and IR lighting a bayonet and a ****ing catchers mitt to hunker down, or take it to the turd.
I don't even know if I agree with your Optimum round statement. It's a bullet better then some and not as effective as some.
Like someone said what are YOU going to do if your gat's in the bedroom and your in the livingroom. Say it's dinner time and your at the table with the family right after evening prayer. Your carving a turkey with the electric knife and johnny junky comes thru the front door.
I do know that Ive got a carving knife and fork in my hands, I do know that it won't be pretty, and that I can close the distance very quickly, and that theirs lots of shit to throw at the guy/guys to shake him as I get jiggy with the tools I got.
I read one maybe two guys in this section say if they got pants on, they have there gun on. Hmmmm. Two out of how many?. Have a plan, any action is better then no action. A shotgun is better then nothing and I'd dam sure take that 22, 25, or 32 if that's all the **** I had.
I would find a way to make it work most ricky ticky, my families life may depend on it..
I read every post twice today" Home protection", I saw stuff that was right on, I saw stuff that was ok, and I laughed at some stuff. What I really saw was a bunch of guys who take life and family protection seriously and are trying to do the best they can.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and security plans. I learned alot today.
Good night John Boy.
Dirk
Dirk, You're right, you make do with the best that you have. A gun in the hand, be it, 22, 25, or a carving knife, is obviously better than the one in the other room when you are under an immediate threat. That wasn't the issue. The issue was what you were choosing to use as your primary weapon, choosing to use shotshell hunting loads versus available 5.56 weapons that you have. What I was mentioning to you, along with DDD, is your reasoning for that decision may not be what you think it is. My comment about the shooting anecdotes wasn't intended as a criticism, but as a caution in using stories as a basis for tried and true facts. The problem of Glock 40's is an example. The documentation of malfunctions in the Glock 40's is a large enough sample to show a problem. Someone with a single pistol hears about this and because his single pistol hasn't malfunctioned, he states his is fine and there are no problems with the Glock 40's. In this instance, an anecdote of a single gun is not truly representative of a demonstrated trend, or, as you may recognize better in the LE profession, "A clue." :p Your anecdotes of guys that fell over after being dusted with birdshot are not truly representative of what happens when shot with birdshot. How many persons shot by the loads you mentioned actually survive?
You've posted that you currently own 5.56 weapons. Why are these not pressed into service for your home defense purposes? Many of the ones you say you own are going to be shorter than your M90 (If it's the Benelli that I think it is.), which will be as long as a full size M16. Another question, and one that you as an LEO should strongly look at, is why do you prefer a weapon without a light? How do you plan to identify the threat? How do you know it isn't your son coming in late? Even if someone entered, how do you know if their hands hold a weapon or are empty? One allows deadly force, the other does not. What do you use at night on the job? A light, right? You need one on your home defense weapon as well.
When I say the 5.56 is optimal, that is based on penetration and lack of overpenetration. If you look at basically any scientific test from the likes of Dr Gary Roberts, the FBI tests, and any agency that has conducted, you 'll see how various rounds perform. These have been repeatable, and in the LE Community is known as a clue. :) The 5.56 in various loadings like soft points and hollowpoints has been shown to repeatedly NOT overpenetrate to the same degree that handgun nd shotgun rounds do. Look at it this way...why aren't we using birdshot and #4 shot for our work? Why ARE we using 5.56 for a lot of things?
If you have the choice, as an LEO, when you know you're going to be using deadly force, would you prefer to have your 5.56 weapon or your shotgun loaded with hunting pellets? My work longgun is a 10.5-inch AR, and is the one that is the go-to gun at home if I know I need to pull a trigger.
FYI, you now know 3 guys that carry if they have pants on. I've had too many LE experiences and training to know better to not do it.:p
QuietShootr
10-03-09, 07:28
FYI, you now know 3 guys that carry if they have pants on. I've had too many LE experiences and training to know better to not do it.:p\
4.
I use a 10.3" also, for the reasons stated.
Cincinnatus
10-03-09, 07:34
Here's a thought to consider, let me know what you guys think. How does the 5.56 compare to the .223 as a defensive round? It seems logical that, depending upon how frangible the bullet is and all other things being equal, a miss with a 5.56 round would penetrate walls more due to its higher pressure and velocity than would a .223. Does this make sense? Is this correct?
Obviously, if all rounds are on target and center mass, this is probably not an issue, but what if the guy has heavy clothing that conceals the exact center of his mass and your rounds pass through his coat and maybe miss his flesh or instead only pass through thinner points of tissue without hitting anything vital--say, it passes through the edge of the neck without striking a vein or it skims the inside of a bicep? I have shot an Elk through the neck with a .308 without hitting anything vital and the damn thing gave me a chase of several hours--obviously a man is NOT an Elk and an Elk with its greater body mass, weight, thick skin, etc. is apples to oranges here, but it still makes me wonder. What if the fight is one where the assailant ducks for concealment and you end up in the type of fight where you only get fleeting glipses of him as he ducks in and out to fire at you?
I may be thinking too hard, but in a fight as in combat, there are so many damn variables that change everything and give you SNAFU as your SOP.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.:cool:
decodeddiesel
10-03-09, 11:46
Here's a thought to consider, let me know what you guys think. How does the 5.56 compare to the .223 as a defensive round? It seems logical that, depending upon how frangible the bullet is and all other things being equal, a miss with a 5.56 round would penetrate walls more due to its higher pressure and velocity than would a .223. Does this make sense? Is this correct?
Obviously, if all rounds are on target and center mass, this is probably not an issue, but what if the guy has heavy clothing that conceals the exact center of his mass and your rounds pass through his coat and maybe miss his flesh or instead only pass through thinner points of tissue without hitting anything vital--say, it passes through the edge of the neck without striking a vein or it skims the inside of a bicep? I have shot an Elk through the neck with a .308 without hitting anything vital and the damn thing gave me a chase of several hours--obviously a man is NOT an Elk and an Elk with its greater body mass, weight, thick skin, etc. is apples to oranges here, but it still makes me wonder. What if the fight is one where the assailant ducks for concealment and you end up in the type of fight where you only get fleeting glipses of him as he ducks in and out to fire at you?
I may be thinking too hard, but in a fight as in combat, there are so many damn variables that change everything and give you SNAFU as your SOP.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.:cool:
From a basic physics standpoint it would seem you're right, increased pressure and velocity will equal high momentum. This would be true if we were discussing a perfectly inelastic collision where the round penetrated the medium with no deformation. If you're shooting something like Wolf then this would be the case as it's bi-meal construction means it's not going to deform that much.
When in actuality a real 5.56 round designed to "fragment" is going to be less of a risk because of it's extra velocity. Reason why is because it is going to deform more when it hits the dry wall and may shed it's jacket or some apart after traveling though a few panels. This is why they say "what does the projectile do after it hits a wall?"
Dirk Williams
10-03-09, 12:06
BC I think nobody is wrong here. I get your point and don't really disagree with the overall point. This site has what 1000/2000 people on it. All likley armed to the teeth. They don't represent the average citizen who may also cross this bridge.
We are all on this site and others sites like it so that we can continue to learn, to be better prepared for "That Moment", You know when time stands still and we find ourselves in a position that every motion is slow motion. Clarity and fine gross motor skills stuff
Rob's point Or Pat?. point is right on. We train so that our red flags our movement to cover, or mag changes, failure drills etc, etc become sub-conscious reaction. Sounds like your in the business, you have learned visual and verbal ques that trigger specific responses.
More importantly you have learned to read people, and have a highly tuned sense of awareness. That's second nature to cops and high speed military guys.
I have several 556's I like them alot, I practice with them weekly well my issued gun. I prefer the battle rifle over the carbines, Something about the 308 and when it goes bang. Love FN's
FYI we don't carry shotguns. The agency gives us either Colts M4's, some of us with better skills sets got G36's and everybody gets 10 30 round mags.
Regarding shotguns, or guns in general Ive learned that people are looking for the go fast shit, the latest greatest stuff on the market. It's cool it's fun to work with and gives us a sense of being high speed.
Brother Im 53 and there is nothing high speed about me these days. I remember when we only had shotguns in the units, and we were driving mopars!.
As for the other post, My training is to shoot until the threat is in fact no longer a threat. Get it right the first time and you won't have to cover the turd on the ground while your looking over your shoulder.
Light on Shotgun, Frankly not a bad idea. I had intended all along to get one but my other stuff 556's and my long range stuff keeps gettin priority projects or upgrades.
It's apparent to me that Ive ruffled some feathers with my posted thoughts and my way of doing things. Ive been frank and honest, if Ive offended you I'm sorry not my intent, I had asked a few questions on private channels regarding expertise and experience levels. WOW really fuzzed some folks. It's amazing how silence can be a very loud answer to the question s asked.
Gentleman thank you for the frank responses and sharing your views on how it should be. I believe it's always proper to ask Why. Why is it that way, why do we do it that way.
Dirk Williams
Cincinnatus
10-03-09, 14:09
BC WOW really fuzzed some folks. It's amazing how silence can be a very loud answer to the question s asked.
Dirk Williams
Sometimes folks are just busy and not trying to coldshoulder you when they don't give an answer. Give it a few weeks. ;)
Also, some people's PM inbox might be full.
Cincinnatus
10-03-09, 14:11
From a basic physics standpoint it would seem you're right, increased pressure and velocity will equal high momentum. This would be true if we were discussing a perfectly inelastic collision where the round penetrated the medium with no deformation. If you're shooting something like Wolf then this would be the case as it's bi-meal construction means it's not going to deform that much.
When in actuality a real 5.56 round designed to "fragment" is going to be less of a risk because of it's extra velocity. Reason why is because it is going to deform more when it hits the dry wall and may shed it's jacket or some apart after traveling though a few panels. This is why they say "what does the projectile do after it hits a wall?"
Thanks, Decoded Diesel. I appreciate the input.
So a .223 will generally penetrate farther through wall panels than the 5.56 because the increased velocity of the 5.56 breaks up the bullet more, whereas the slower moving .223 will not break up as much? Correct?
decodeddiesel
10-03-09, 14:27
It's apparent to me that Ive ruffled some feathers with my posted thoughts and my way of doing things. Ive been frank and honest, if Ive offended you I'm sorry not my intent, I had asked a few questions on private channels regarding expertise and experience levels. WOW really fuzzed some folks. It's amazing how silence can be a very loud answer to the question s asked.
If I was one of these folks who was supposed to receive a "private channel" message I did not.
It's apparent to me that Ive ruffled some feathers with my posted thoughts and my way of doing things. Ive been frank and honest, if Ive offended you I'm sorry not my intent, I had asked a few questions on private channels regarding expertise and experience levels. WOW really fuzzed some folks. It's amazing how silence can be a very loud answer to the question s asked.
Gentleman thank you for the frank responses and sharing your views on how it should be. I believe it's always proper to ask Why. Why is it that way, why do we do it that way.
Dirk Williams
No feathers ruffled...this is discussion, akin to sitting down over beer and hashing out ideas and thoughts at choir practice....
Guys with higher skill sets get G36's? Can you turn it in for the M4? There are reasons they're not held in high regard. Wandering zeros to start. I'd hate to be handicapped right out of the gate...
Dirk Williams
10-04-09, 08:02
Ive shot about 2000 rounds from the weapon maybe a few more or a few less. The number changes, I really don't pay that much attention to bullet counts except for my log guns in the log books.
Ive not experienced the wondering zero. In fact Ive found just the oppisite this weapon is very accurate out to 600m which has a dedicated set of hash makes specific to 300y and 600y on the integral scope.
There are things I don't like. The trigger is gross and it's heavy. I purchased the C stock which is shorter and a foregrip. Now the weapon handles much better and with plates on I don't screw up my cheek wield for choked up work" In tight" or extended work 100y plus.
Have you spent any time with the G-36 weapon, and did you actually experience this wandering zero. I ask cuz Ive heard about it alot, but nobody I know" Who has actual long term experience" with the platform has really experienced it. Kinda like " I have a friend who has a friend"stuff.
I could go back to the M4 colt, they are older with the upper handle permenatly attached. Actually I don't know if I can change out or not we drive 4x4 chevy pickups and had to tear them apart and manufacture new holders , mine being on the passanger side, up tight into my radios and light/siren box's, barrel down at a 45% angle.
Being a resident deputy 70 to100 miles away from the main office I literally live in my rig, lap tops printers sniper guns under the rear seat, night vision IR everything you want to keep semi dirt free has to ride within the cab. Most importantly is XM radio. Gotta have good music to make it thru the day.
This G36 would not be my choice of weapon for a home invasion gig. But then you know the rest of the story If it ain't an auto shotgun it aint next to the bed for home defense.
I'm a first time poster. I am truly intrigued with this topic because after two lengthy deployments to Iraq (13 mo. and 15 mo.) as an Infantry soldier, had made me a very prepared person. I say prepared because that is what I think I am and not paranoid like what mental health department says.
I’ve read and skimmed through the posts but I have not seen anyone post about bullet proof doors.
http://www.pacificbulletproof.com/products/bullet-resistant-doors/index.html
Also, we played a lot with trip flares during my deployment due to the austere environment we lived in. Eventually all the M49A1 were going off due to wild dogs, we opt for something else. With cheap house-hold items, we made DIY trip-wire to set off a small alarm that ran to our TOC. Using a clothes pin, fishing wires, foils, electrical wires, electrical tape, and small miscellaneous electronics. It's dependable audible trip but with anything, you must PCC/PCI (combat checks) the equipment everynight because it can be easily defeated. It great to use if your not financially ready to buy a home security system.
Basic design I found online.
http://www.instructables.com/id/5_Dollar_Burglar_Alarm/
I also have this part of my security system at home.
http://www.buddybardoorjammer.com/
And just a thought, if anyone train in light infantry - do you rememeber what SLLS is? To everyone else it's Stop, Listen, Look, and Smell. An intruder will have a different scent, so instead of rushing into a situation - creep around quietly until you PID (positively identified the enemy) then assess your situation from there if the enemy is not aggressive on his tactics.
and I love security cameras and motion sensor lights. I don't plan to kill someone out of spite, that's why I have flex cuffs and certain things in place for a take down instead of a kill, if situation warrant. I always lock my main entrance/gate, upstairs door, and my room. Atleast they're going have to bypass a few doors prior to me waking up.
From a Retired-CAG guy: "it takes 11 seconds from waking up to mentally/physically react from a dead sleep"
I don't know how he knows that information but I trust him with my life.
- Mike
SGT D USMC
10-04-09, 14:57
11b30, welcome to the forum. and most important, I'm glad that you made it back.
I appreciate your info about trip wire alarms you used. We used the empty C ration cans with rocks in them strung on comunication wire in vietnam. Like alot of other things we did were handed down from other wars through history.
The new breed (I use this title with respect) have brought a lot of new good Ideas to fighting A war. Some of this was brought forward by engineers, and inventors, but to me the most interesting changes are always from the troops as they adapt and overcome.
I do question a quote you cited, ("It takes 11 seconds from waking up to mentally/physcialy react from a dead sleep'") I left vietnam in 1967 and I still have a very elevated startel response. I am 100% disabled with PTSD and I know that it contributes to the startel. most vets do startel easy when something wakes them. I'm not sure that I know at what point a person is fully awake. I feel like I am awake in the first second. I do seek answers on this subject.
11b30 you stepped forward and served when so few do. In my opinion half of our govt and a much smaller part of Americian fought against you. I fought a war they would not let us win. Be proud of the war you fought for the real Americans. I took an oath to defend the Consitution. I often hear the phraise "I don't agree but i'll fight for thier right to say it" I changed my oath (in my own mind) To I will never defend those who claim to be Americans , but hate America
__________________________________
he went into younder village and never returned
the door jamb armor.
http://www.djarmor.com/Door-Jamb-Armor
lowspeed4u
10-05-09, 09:41
I really like this post, I like hearing how everyone would do something. I like how some have tons of military training and some LE training but the answer remains the same one of two options Attack to and through the threat, or barrcade in safe room till attacked.
I will say from my training be it a small amout, I would be attacking through the house, this being said and here is the reasoning, I have a wife I want to get any bullets that might start to fly away from her so that she might surive the incident. I don't grab my Kit just my gun, right now given where I live and the location as to where I sleep it would only be a pistol with white light attached. This reason is the layout of the house my front door and bed room door are right next to each other, a quick idea would be open my bed room window and stack up on the guy breaking into my from door, nice little L-shape ambush. If there was something in the upper portion of the house (I live in a basement that is 2000 square foot though) I would be grabing my AR with white light one mag and move up the stairs to protect the woman living up there. again no gear just my shorts and gun, if needed I could hear where someone was in the house because again I am in the basement.
Another idea if you could hear multiple people in the house I might grab the kit not for protection but for ammo capacity. If I'm grabing the AR the pistol stays with the wife and I just hope to god she doesn't shoot me (she has the idea of grab the "bang bang" and beat someone with it). I know alot of people are goinng to say that you can't identify that fast and think that fast, but I have been in sitituations where that was required, some here know of those times others don't.
Everything goes back to the training and your willingness to make the other person not breathe anymore. And back to a sticking point that F2S knows about when we were defining what prevailing and surviving was in a mindset class we taught. No matter what you decied to do the biggest thing is just do something, if you freze you are dead and so are your loved ones. Also like already stated, if you are going to do something make sure you know what, and who you are shooting so that you don't have to live with a very bad decssion that you made.
-Derrick
I will say from my training be it a small amout, I would be attacking through the house, this being said and here is the reasoning, I have a wife I want to get any bullets that might start to fly away from her so that she might surive the incident.
What happens to the wife when, after you've left your position of advantage and been cut down, the BGs descend on her?
What happens to the wife when, after you've left your position of advantage to deal with a threat, a different BG (or group of them) descends on her?
Thomas M-4
10-05-09, 11:59
What happens to the wife when, after you've left your position of advantage and been cut down, the BGs descend on her?
What happens to the wife when, after you've left your position of advantage to deal with a threat, a different BG (or group of them) descends on her?
Well for me I hope that if I get cut down 1st I hope that me leaving to go deal with the threat that the bullets that cut me down were not missing me and cutting down my family. 2nd Hopefully the time I bought my family my wife could either call for help or have time to escape or mentally prepare her self to actually take a life if she had to. 3rd this is just a maybe but maybe after the intruder has been in a fire fight he will say enough is enough and retreat. I do not like the Idea of exchanging gun fire with some intruder with me in the room with my family if I can help it.
lowspeed4u
10-05-09, 12:31
What happens to the wife when, after you've left your position of advantage and been cut down, the BGs descend on her?
What happens to the wife when, after you've left your position of advantage to deal with a threat, a different BG (or group of them) descends on her?
First off from the layout of my basement apartment, the position of advantage wouldn't be my bed room as I can touch the front door from my bedroom door. In my limited exposture to shooting inside an encluser a group of normal attackers aren't going to continue to attack through a house when shots have been fired. also by that time there is an exit my wife hopefully would have used to get out of the house and down to our barn to call for help. I could what if this all day long by in my mind the best thing would be that I'm moving out away from family members, all on my limited knowledge in tactics and high risk shootings.
Though very good points you do bring up, at that time I feel as though my wife would act as she should and either run or fight I can't speak for her as to what she would do. I can only rely on my tactical soundness to eniminate the threat before he gets me.
Cincinnatus
10-05-09, 13:11
I really like this post, I like hearing how everyone would do something. I like how some have tons of military training and some LE training but the answer remains the same one of two options Attack to and through the threat, or barrcade in safe room till attacked.
I will say from my training be it a small amout, I would be attacking through the house, this being said and here is the reasoning, I have a wife I want to get any bullets that might start to fly away from her so that she might surive the incident. I don't grab my Kit just my gun, right now given where I live and the location as to where I sleep it would only be a pistol with white light attached. This reason is the layout of the house my front door and bed room door are right next to each other, a quick idea would be open my bed room window and stack up on the guy breaking into my from door, nice little L-shape ambush. If there was something in the upper portion of the house (I live in a basement that is 2000 square foot though) I would be grabing my AR with white light one mag and move up the stairs to protect the woman living up there. again no gear just my shorts and gun, if needed I could hear where someone was in the house because again I am in the basement.
Another idea if you could hear multiple people in the house I might grab the kit not for protection but for ammo capacity. If I'm grabing the AR the pistol stays with the wife and I just hope to god she doesn't shoot me (she has the idea of grab the "bang bang" and beat someone with it). I know alot of people are goinng to say that you can't identify that fast and think that fast, but I have been in sitituations where that was required, some here know of those times others don't.
Everything goes back to the training and your willingness to make the other person not breathe anymore. And back to a sticking point that F2S knows about when we were defining what prevailing and surviving was in a mindset class we taught. No matter what you decied to do the biggest thing is just do something, if you freze you are dead and so are your loved ones. Also like already stated, if you are going to do something make sure you know what, and who you are shooting so that you don't have to live with a very bad decssion that you made.
-Derrick
If you have someone who lives upstairs be sure before you bounce in wielding a gun that whatever noises you hear aren't just a friend of hers visiting or a verbal argument or she bumped a piece of favorite china off the dresser. :D
no need to pray to god that she doesn't shoot you - because hoping for the best is not a course of action.
you need to get household-six into the game and drill with her with some of your own TTP/SOPs ;)
Failure2Stop
10-05-09, 19:32
Before everybody jumps up and down on lowspeed4u it should be known that I know him personally, he is a very solid shooter, and has been in very dangerous places and done very mean things to very bad people with extreme proficiency.
He is a skilled and trained large human.
He does know what is it to be in a gunfight alone in a room with other people trying to kill you with automatic rifles.
I will not not speculate as to whether that was a good decision or not :D, but the facts are these:
He is still here. They are not.
Cincinnatus
10-05-09, 21:37
Before everybody jumps up and down on lowspeed4u it should be known that I know him personally, he is a very solid shooter, and has been in very dangerous places and done very mean things to very bad people with extreme proficiency.
He is a skilled and trained large human.
He does know what is it to be in a gunfight alone in a room with other people trying to kill you with automatic rifles.
I will not not speculate as to whether that was a good decision or not :D, but the facts are these:
He is still here. They are not.
I'm glad to hear we have a man with skills aboard. My hat if off to you, lowspeed4u.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot18.htm
My house has three entrances, two of which are back sliding doors. One goes directly into a bedroom. While the person in there has no relation to me (she's the woman I rent from) her safety is still important to me. The other person in the house is a former S. Korean military sergeant, and he's pretty handy with my AR.
I am the only one armed in the house. I have my Sig 226 on a nightstand with cell phone and 3 flashlights (haven't bought my x300 yet). I have my AR within arms length, but I am between it and any entrance.
I have had two "bumps in the night" that the dogs (a shepherd and a boxer) have woken and alerted to. I cleared the house, sat in the dark for about thirty minutes (I could see/hear all three entrances) and then went back to sleep.
I don't know what, if anything, I could do different. If I need more than 60 AR rounds, or 60 pistol (all loaded and within arms length) then we're all ****ed anyway.
In my opinion, which isn't much, a pistol would be MY best home invasion defense. I'm proficient with it, well trained, and have cleared buildings with it, and only it. Shotgun/AR is too unweildly in our tight hallways (all three bedrooms are in very tight hallways), but if I had to set up to defend the other occupants, I have the option. I also have pepper spray and handcuffs, if a less lethal approach is needed.
One thing I will be doing is familiarizing the roommates with where I keep my weapons and ammo. I have left a key to my room with my roomate, in case I am at work (I work security for my neighborhood, anyhow... lucky me!) or otherwise absent.
Cincinnatus
11-01-09, 23:23
I don't know what, if anything, I could do different. If I need more than 60 AR rounds, or 60 pistol (all loaded and within arms length) then we're all ****ed anyway.
.
:D Don't be so optimistic!!!
Seriously, though, having more than you think you'll ever practically need on hand is not a bad idea. Especially if one mag ends up failing mechanically for some reason and you have to reach for another. :cool:
good old thread that is still going :)
I have a alarm system that is hooked up to responders ? suposedly ?? have to run tests again
we dont have a instant on like in the commercials ? but I wonder if it would be good to wake me up and maybe scare off anyone ? or since I do open the other doors once in a while would I freak out myself :)
our front door is getting a security outside mesh door soon along with the side door
installing a security camera system soon
one thing while most are against other drug dealers here it seems the home invasion guys are coming in wearing full body armor dresses as police !! and yelling POLICE also !
so body armor throws a new what to defend yourself with scenario ?
Face it, we all have visions of how a real home defense situation is likely to happen in our own homes. There are only three types of defense locations: home, transit, and other locations. We expect to sleep peaceably in our homes at night, safe and secure with our families. Hopefully, we have a strategy based on our particular environment and needs. The following are some points not often considered during home defense strategies.
During a recent class of about 10 people, I asked how many people had a pair of shoes next to their bed. Only one out of the ten did. So, in the middle of the night you hear a crash downstairs, you hop out of bed and grab a pistol or long gun and decide to investigate. Imagine if you -
Get to the top of the steps and step on a Lego or dog toy causing you to fall down the steps with a loaded firearm in your hand. This is especially an issue with a long gun, or if you have a light in one hand and a gun in the other.
After making it down the steps, you detect movement and step forward. The crash you heard was a glass that the intruder had knocked off your kitchen counter after jimmying the door. The small shards of the drinking glass cut into the bottom of your bare foot.
Do you sleep without a shirt on? Do you put one on when you get up? Do you prefer a long gun for home defense? Have you ever fired that gun bare chested? Do you think it will effect your response?
More about your strategy, a little about the use of tell tales. Tell tales are very useful in many situations. I break them into three categories: security seals, placement, and lighting. They are a great tool for a layered defense.
Security seals- usually done with sewing thread or scotch tapes depending on the situation. These are most often used when out of your home but can be used when leaving your home for a period of time. Say you are leaving on vacation for a week and do not expect anyone coming to your home. Some gray or tan thread can be used to string across the entrance to your back yard, about waist high so as not to be disturbed by animals. You can also take a few pieces of tape and put them in the lower corners of all exterior doors. Now if you come home and the string across the entrance to the back yard is broken it should make you suspicious, then you walk around to the back door and find that the tape you put in place is ripped. Act accordingly. The tape also works well with your vehicle when leaving it say in an airport parking lot. Doing the hood, trunk, and doors only takes a minute but can give you a huge piece of mind when you return.
Placement- when I go to bed at night I button up by closing all doors, pushing all chairs in, locking all doors and windows. Now if I come downstairs and anything is out of place it draws my attention. You can do this with any items, even say on a desk.
Lighting- my strategy is to work from the darkness whenever possible. In my own home, I am better at negotiating my house in the dark than an intruder is. When I go to bed, the only lights left on are exterior lights. The house is completely dark. When leaving your house, it is your choice to leave a light on or not. Leaving a light on allows you to see silhouettes inside the house.
There is more to home defense strategy than tools and tactics. Consider all things.- George
This is all great reading and insight from some really knowledgeable people, and a prime example of the reason I joined this forum.
I'm in the process for developing a formal home defense plan along with my wife (who is also learning some tactical gun handling skills despite the fact that she isn't into guns - about all I can ever hope for it seems). I live in a 100 year old single story Craftsman style bungalow. Its design is far from what I would consider ideally defensable so I'm working within the limitations of layout. The bed rooms are located away from the hall so really the only "kill zone" or funnel as you guys refer to it as, is the bed room door way. We are planning kids, and the nursery will be attached to the master bedroom via a bathroom so at least we will have an alternate and more secured route to the nursery. My biggest concern is that I am hundreds of miles away from home 60-70% of the time due to my job and the odds are that my wife will have to handle things on her own (and since the state of Kalifornia seems hell bent on releasing several thousand criminals early, the odds just went up :mad:). With that in mind, the defense plan needs to rely heavily on the KISS principle. We have a Collie who is very good at barking but I doubt he would take a chunk of flesh out of an intruder despite the fact that at 100lbs, he could if he wanted. We do have creaky floors so hopefully between the dog's barking and the floors creaking, we/she will have a little prior warning.
We live in a good neighborhood with a good police force and response times (first hand knowledge from medical emergencies with elderly relatives) has been 5 minutes or less. Of course as all of you know, 5 minutes is an eternity. My plan for her is to keep her alive or unharmed for that 5 minutes before the cops show up. They can then have all the fun they want clearing rooms.
One thing I have not seen mentioned much is the Verbal Challenge? What are your opinions on a verbal challenge? It seems to me that it would be a double edge sword, it might scare someone off, but then again it will alert an intruder hell bent on harm to your location. In you guys experience, do verbal challenges do more harm than good? What would be a good verbal challenge to use (especailly given the fact that the intruder may not hobla eglis very well)? Will the fact that you issued a verbal challenge and it was heard by neighbors or the 911 operator help you in court?
In regards to the verbal challenge... Law Enforcement training drills it into our heads (not a cop, but I've been trained by a few, and did enforcement for a number of years) that we MUST issue verbal commands before we shoot. For me, in a home defense scenario, I would probably do the same. Hell, if you aren't yelling "GET THE **** OUTTA MY DAMN HOUSE BEFORE I SHOOT YOUR SORRY ASS!" then you're probably way too calm. That being said, I do not believe it should be a requirement when training for home defense. It's smart, from a legal defense standpoint, but I do not believe it will make or break you if the rest of the shoot is clean.
The one thing a verbal command MAY help you with, is more clearly identifying whether the intruder is a clearly defined threat. If it's just some theif pawing through your belongings, a simple "HEY!" while engaging will cause anyone to turn around. You can quickly determine if the threat is present, and avoid shooting the suspect in the back. This is not to advocate any sort of clear cut home defense technique, as each encounter will be fluid and ever changing. If we remain dynamic, we can handle any threat presented to us.
Each user may find it acceptable or unacceptable depending on the given situation. In a 2 story house, for example, with a clear view of the ground level, is it safer to remain at a "secure" vantage point until the threat leaves or presents itself as imminently hostile? For me, in most situations, yes. In my family home, all bedrooms are up stairs, and upstairs I have the clear advantage. Stealing what is downstairs is not worth putting my family in danger. At this point, I would gain a clear vantage point and call 911, and then issue my commands. Something along the lines of "I have a firearm and the police are on their way. Please leave now and avoid the consequences." In that house, I could do this with little or no risk to myself, as I have a very clear and HIDDEN vantage point in which to observe ingress and egress of the house. If they made it past my 70lb Pit Bull, then they are probably a threat worth shooting ;)
In the house I am in now, the perp really has the upper hand. We have three ways in and out, and one is directly into a bedroom. Yes, there is a 75lb German Shepherd and a 60 pound Boxer in there, but still. My job, as the sole gun owner/shooter in the house (my Korean roommate can shoot, but owns no firearms). is to protect everyone. I still have not figured out my best base course of action for this house.
Cincinnatus
11-16-09, 03:04
In regards to the verbal challenge... Law Enforcement training drills it into our heads (not a cop, but I've been trained by a few, and did enforcement for a number of years) that we MUST issue verbal commands before we shoot. For me, in a home defense scenario, I would probably do the same. Hell, if you aren't yelling "GET THE **** OUTTA MY DAMN HOUSE BEFORE I SHOOT YOUR SORRY ASS!" then you're probably way too calm. That being said, I do not believe it should be a requirement when training for home defense. It's smart, from a legal defense standpoint, but I do not believe it will make or break you if the rest of the shoot is clean.
The one thing a verbal command MAY help you with, is more clearly identifying whether the intruder is a clearly defined threat. If it's just some theif pawing through your belongings, a simple "HEY!" while engaging will cause anyone to turn around. You can quickly determine if the threat is present, and avoid shooting the suspect in the back. This is not to advocate any sort of clear cut home defense technique, as each encounter will be fluid and ever changing. If we remain dynamic, we can handle any threat presented to us.
Each user may find it acceptable or unacceptable depending on the given situation. In a 2 story house, for example, with a clear view of the ground level, is it safer to remain at a "secure" vantage point until the threat leaves or presents itself as imminently hostile? For me, in most situations, yes. In my family home, all bedrooms are up stairs, and upstairs I have the clear advantage. Stealing what is downstairs is not worth putting my family in danger. At this point, I would gain a clear vantage point and call 911, and then issue my commands. Something along the lines of "I have a firearm and the police are on their way. Please leave now and avoid the consequences." In that house, I could do this with little or no risk to myself, as I have a very clear and HIDDEN vantage point in which to observe ingress and egress of the house. If they made it past my 70lb Pit Bull, then they are probably a threat worth shooting ;)
In the house I am in now, the perp really has the upper hand. We have three ways in and out, and one is directly into a bedroom. Yes, there is a 75lb German Shepherd and a 60 pound Boxer in there, but still. My job, as the sole gun owner/shooter in the house (my Korean roommate can shoot, but owns no firearms). is to protect everyone. I still have not figured out my best base course of action for this house.
With others in the house, target ID is a priority for you so a white light is a must. I am sure you probably realize that, but as for the verbal commands thing, it depends on what state you live in. In a state with the castle doctrine, you're right, you're fine, but in others where you have to retreat and be cornered BS, then you should definitely yell something/ Also, in your house with others, a yell and the light can both aide in target ID before you light up the wrong bloke.
There's me assuming again :) I have 4 lights on my nighstand, and my next firearm related purchase will be an x3/400 for my Sig 226, and a mount for the AR. I am familiar with the different light holds while using a firearm. Always a good reminder though :) Thanks.
I have to second the white light thing. Just a day or two after I read about the FL guy that shot his fiancee I had to get up to answer the door. I thought my wife was next to me, she got up to take the dog out got locked out and I did not hear her leave. Had I not double checked....well not something I wish to think about. So, now there are two mag lights on the side of my bed. Also made me rethink clearing the house....
NCPatrolAR
11-19-09, 12:01
In regards to the verbal challenge... Law Enforcement training drills it into our heads (not a cop, but I've been trained by a few, and did enforcement for a number of years) that we MUST issue verbal commands before we shoot
thankfully my agency doesn't have such an assinine requirement. While a verbal challenge can work; sometimes it's better to be felt before being heard
A verbal challenge, being a requirement or not, is a good idea IF THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO SO. You never know who may be watching or could be around to hear you say Stop or I'll shoot or Police, Drop the gun, or whatever the proper terminology for the moment will be. If you should end up in court after an encounter, how much better would it go if there was an unbiased witness to testify that they heard you challenge the subject before the SHTF? If there is not an opportunity, don't risk you life by wasting time trying to yell a command to someone who is obviously not going to comply.
NCPatrolAR
11-19-09, 14:44
Keep in mind a verbal command doesn't have to always be given prior to a shooting. Remember there are times where it doesn't pay to invite someone to your gunfight
QuietShootr
11-19-09, 15:18
This is all great reading and insight from some really knowledgeable people, and a prime example of the reason I joined this forum.
I'm in the process for developing a formal home defense plan along with my wife (who is also learning some tactical gun handling skills despite the fact that she isn't into guns - about all I can ever hope for it seems). I live in a 100 year old single story Craftsman style bungalow. Its design is far from what I would consider ideally defensable so I'm working within the limitations of layout. The bed rooms are located away from the hall so really the only "kill zone" or funnel as you guys refer to it as, is the bed room door way. We are planning kids, and the nursery will be attached to the master bedroom via a bathroom so at least we will have an alternate and more secured route to the nursery. My biggest concern is that I am hundreds of miles away from home 60-70% of the time due to my job and the odds are that my wife will have to handle things on her own (and since the state of Kalifornia seems hell bent on releasing several thousand criminals early, the odds just went up :mad:). With that in mind, the defense plan needs to rely heavily on the KISS principle. We have a Collie who is very good at barking but I doubt he would take a chunk of flesh out of an intruder despite the fact that at 100lbs, he could if he wanted. We do have creaky floors so hopefully between the dog's barking and the floors creaking, we/she will have a little prior warning.
We live in a good neighborhood with a good police force and response times (first hand knowledge from medical emergencies with elderly relatives) has been 5 minutes or less. Of course as all of you know, 5 minutes is an eternity. My plan for her is to keep her alive or unharmed for that 5 minutes before the cops show up. They can then have all the fun they want clearing rooms.
One thing I have not seen mentioned much is the Verbal Challenge? What are your opinions on a verbal challenge? It seems to me that it would be a double edge sword, it might scare someone off, but then again it will alert an intruder hell bent on harm to your location. In you guys experience, do verbal challenges do more harm than good? What would be a good verbal challenge to use (especailly given the fact that the intruder may not hobla eglis very well)? Will the fact that you issued a verbal challenge and it was heard by neighbors or the 911 operator help you in court?
I think that would depend on your state, and whether or not you are on the phone with 911 when you make contact with the intruder(s). In my state we have both a stand-your-ground and castle doctrine law in place, and I live in a very conservative county...plus the 3rd shift sergeant on the PD in my town is one of my best friends. In MY situation, I'm not giving a warning in my house. As lowspeed4u said, I'm assaulting through the objective and leaving my wife to deny entrance to the master bedroom with her 20ga.
Plus, my house is too small for me to **** around with verbal challenges - if the dude in question decides he wants to fight, and he can see me, he's well inside Tueller range.
QuietShootr
11-19-09, 15:21
Keep in mind a verbal command doesn't have to always be given prior to a shooting. Remember there are times where it doesn't pay to invite someone to your gunfight
Exactly. I don't want a gunfight in my house, I want to be the Cho in a roomful of college students.
Is that a bad metaphor? :D
I want to be the Cho in a roomful of college students.
Is that a bad metaphor? :D
Yes, it is.
thopkins22
11-21-09, 23:45
One thing I have not seen mentioned much is the Verbal Challenge? What are your opinions on a verbal challenge? It seems to me that it would be a double edge sword, it might scare someone off, but then again it will alert an intruder hell bent on harm to your location. In you guys experience, do verbal challenges do more harm than good? What would be a good verbal challenge to use (especailly given the fact that the intruder may not hobla eglis very well)? Will the fact that you issued a verbal challenge and it was heard by neighbors or the 911 operator help you in court?
I think it would help you in court. But I wouldn't risk my life or the life of an innocent just to yell something and invite the SOB to a gunfight.
There's an article by SouthNarc floating around that includes a little bit on verbal challenges, and which ones will be most effective on the criminal mind.
I don't recall the specifics, and the article was based around threat identification in a public place like a parking lot. Anyway his suggestion was to use profanity, but in a smart manner.
"Back up motherfu^$er!"--Probably not a good idea to say to a hardened criminal, especially one who has been to jail.
"Back the f#$k up!"--More effective without "calling him out."
ETA: Couldn't remember what the policy was on gratuitous swearing...I think this would have been fine, but probably not necessary.
got our nice custom security door for the front main door this last week :)
nice and going to be impossible to kick and run in ? they can still get in through windows but the surprise of kick and run in is gone :)
plus its nice knowing my wife or I can answer the door and have something between us and whoever ?
also having fresh air all day is very very nice
also for the most part the way the house is for most of the day its hard to see in since the inside is in shade and sun hits the door making it so you have to walk up and put your hands on it to shield to view in !
In relation to alarms; how are your's set up? I'm L.E.O. and when at home I set for stay (I have sensors on all doors and windows and no motion sensors.) The alarm will beep for 30 sec. before going off.
I know are alarm can be setup for dif times ?
would you ever want a instant on ? I had the thought at night to have a instant on or say within 10 seconds or something ? rather than the longer time we use when we are gone so we have enough time to turn it off
a few times I have forgot and opened the back door though so a true instant might not be good :)
Cincinnatus
11-22-09, 20:51
Well I only have her do instant when she is home alone. She never goes outside at night; and believe me, you want all the time advantage you can have. I have told her that if the alarm goes off; grab our son and huddle in the bedroom closet with the bedroom door locked and hold a firearm and flashlight on the door. Then she is to call me on the cell phone. I can start en route and any closer units. Typically when an alarm goes off, it will not be set to instant. So someone kicks in your door. They have 30 sec. before anything happens. Alarm sounds and alarm company is notified. Alarm company calls 1 number (usually the home) and if no answer possibly a 2nd. Let's just say your wife answers screaming for help. At least another 30 sec. to 1 min. has gone by. Alarm company calls your area 911. 911 creates a screen and transfers it to your dispatch. This takes another min. or so. If your 911 is like ours, our dispatch will have to call back and get more info (but we'll say it's not). Then (if units are available) the call is dispatched and units assigned. This will take at least 30 sec. Then depending on where the units are in the city; it could take 2-20 min. to arrive. So it looks like anywhere from 5-23 min. A lot can happen in that time. I'm sure that there are other perspectives on this. In fact, when I'm on nights my wife won't always set it to instant because she hates to get up and turn it off when i come home.
Does your alarm have window breaks? I have a similar set-up to yours and a similar plan, but you better make sure you have a code word or yell like hell to say it's you coming when going back to that closet--so your wife knows it's you coming. :D
Thomas M-4
11-22-09, 21:09
I think it would help you in court. But I wouldn't risk my life or the life of an innocent just to yell something and invite the SOB to a gunfight.
There's an article by SouthNarc floating around that includes a little bit on verbal challenges, and which ones will be most effective on the criminal mind.
I don't recall the specifics, and the article was based around threat identification in a public place like a parking lot. Anyway his suggestion was to use profanity, but in a smart manner.
"Back up motherfu^$er!"--Probably not a good idea to say to a hardened criminal, especially one who has been to jail.
"Back the f#$k up!"--More effective without "calling him out."
ETA: Couldn't remember what the policy was on gratuitous swearing...I think this would have been fine, but probably not necessary.
How about DIE FU@%ER for a verbal challenge;)
Army and Marine guys know the drill same as it was on the bayonet course;):p.
QuietShootr
11-22-09, 21:42
Does your alarm have window breaks? I have a similar set-up to yours and a similar plan, but you better make sure you have a code word or yell like hell to say it's you coming when going back to that closet--so your wife knows it's you coming. :D
Yep :-)
And in re instant on: have your alarm company program your system so there is a Perimeter/Instant mode available to you that also keeps your glassbreaks armed. When in the house, P/I is the mode to use - if someone tries to enter by stealth, the alarm goes off and gets the PD rolling before they're even completely inside the window/door.
I have a G17 with light attached in a safe attached to the bed and a Sabre middy in the closet. On perimeter outside of the bedroom is a German Shepherd who usually sleeps inside the house. I am of the firm belief that a good dog is a force multiplier.
I agree dogs are a great addition to you HD plan. Even my little springer sounds big and nasty when she barks / Beyond the bark she'd be useless. She is a good early warning and and deterence.
I love dogs and will get one or more when my son gets a little older. However, I was raised to keep dogs outside. I guess that is one reason why I am so ocd about keeping things clean. I would love for a dog to be inside to protect the family when I am gone. However, is there any way to ABSOLUTELY keep them from shedding in, using the restroom in, and stinking up my house? I love dogs, but every friend that I have that has dogs; their house stinks. I don't feel comfortable sitting on their furniture. I thought about a doggy door that could let an outside dog in if she called it, but I don't know how practical it would be.
It is possible to keep your home from smelling if you have a dog inside. The trade off is that you have to clean your home every day or maybe two if you can keep the dog clean, but you will have to clean the dog about once or twice a week. As for the shedding, only certain breeds don't shed, and the ones that don,t make for alarm dogs not guard dogs.
QuietShootr
11-27-09, 16:24
I love dogs and will get one or more when my son gets a little older. However, I was raised to keep dogs outside. I guess that is one reason why I am so ocd about keeping things clean. I would love for a dog to be inside to protect the family when I am gone. However, is there any way to ABSOLUTELY keep them from shedding in, using the restroom in, and stinking up my house? I love dogs, but every friend that I have that has dogs; their house stinks. I don't feel comfortable sitting on their furniture. I thought about a doggy door that could let an outside dog in if she called it, but I don't know how practical it would be.
A dog is not for you.
QuietShootr
11-27-09, 16:27
I am assuming you have motion sensors? Further detail please.
Yes. I have my sensors set up in zones so I can arm in stages - i.e. I can arm some of the interior motions and perimeter so that I can use some rooms in the house but still have instant alarm protection.
This is what I want, albeit not what I'm currently doing. I currently have vaults on keys.
http://www.gunvault.com/55005900.nxg
I had a scare when my 3 year old came into my bed room as I was deep asleep. She didn't make any noise that I was aware of and I awoke with my 1911 in my hand.
Make sure and test the gunvault weekly and change the batteries out twice a year. Mine eats batteries quickly.
SGT D USMC
01-02-10, 13:02
I am lucky that I live in a small house by myself. I have motion sensors outside of the house that begin with someone entering the driveway. this sensor also sets off a buzzer and strobe that they can see and hear (but not loud enough to distrub nabors) Other sensors are located in other places outside. From inside I can see with security cameras most approches. I don't have to monitor the monitors unless i hear a buzzer. I also can turn on various outside lights. my house is only 650 sq ft so I have blocked one intrance door and the other one is reinforced.
This was all done on the cheap. Look on ebay under motion detectors for "reporter" This is a outdoor sensor that runs on AA bateries for over a year. The sensor has a range of dection of about 30 to 40 ft. It then sends a signial up to several hundred yards and easily through a building to the receiver. The reciever can operate on a battery ( only for several hours) but also plugs into house current.
the receiver has a small buzer and light that go on when a signal is received. Now the good part. The receiver also has a sperate switch that is activated when the alarm goes off. This is only a switch and provides no power. now you can make lights or buzzers that are as big as you want. you provide a 12 volt source and wire the items to it with one wire going to the swich on the receiver.
I did this with an additional switch that lets me disarm the big buzzer except when I am asleep.
the reporter usually sells around $70 with one receiver and one sensor. additional sensors are available for about $30 - $30 each.
For security cameras look on e-bay under cctv. If you like to play with electronics you can buy used expenseive camers very cheap. you will have to wire them up, usually 12vdc or 24vac and purchase lens for them, but they will be much better than what I call toy cameras that usually come with a monitor and 4 cammeras for several hundred $ Infared illumanitors are rather inexpenseive and will add night vision to your camerias all of this is under CCTV.
hoped I helped more than confused.
Pathfinder Ops
01-14-10, 16:23
If I'm wearing pants, I'm wearing a gun. Life is simpler that way. I choose carry modes that allow me to sit, lie on the couch, and generally lounge around the house.
If I'm not, I'm in bed and the same gun is sitting on the nightstand next to me.
Agreed.
Carrying is a lifestyle choice in my mind.
When I get dressed in the morning I put on my firearm. At this point I've been doing this for so long that if I didn't it would be akin to walking out without my pants on or something graphically obvious like that.
It doesn't matter the weather or garments being worn. I have a combination of handguns/ holsters that work regardless of the fashion of the day.
My warrior mindset requires that having a gun in the house with me may not mean that it's accessible at all times and I agree that having guns stashed all over the house has the potential to be problematic.
All of my firearms are in my safe except the handgun I happen to be wearing at the time and my long gun of choice for home defense, kept in my bedroom.
+1 to the poster who suggested the "Alamo approach" to that after hours invasion.
Let them come to you on your terms. This puts you in the superior position. Round up the family and dig in and get and maintain comms with law enforcement until said crisis is resolved (one way or the other).
HiggsBoson
01-14-10, 21:07
Make sure and test the gunvault weekly and change the batteries out twice a year. Mine eats batteries quickly.
GunVaults do eat batteries quickly, but it is worth noting that they sell a "deluxe" model that provides an AC adapter. The upgrade to deluxe pays for itself after a couple of years of not having to buy (and replace) batteries. :cool:
El Vaquero
03-08-10, 18:04
Here's my two cents:
Definitely have an alarm system or dogs. Also know how your alarm system works. I know if someone enters through the front door or the side garage door its going to give the 30 second beep to enter the alarm code. My back door and windows are set up for instant alarm. So if the alarm is instantly going off, I know entry is made through the windows or back door.
Be aware of daytime burglaries. My city recently had a string of daytime burglaries where the bad guys cut the power on the outside of the house, thereby defeating most house alarm systems (it should be noted ALL of these homes had the little alarm stickers or signs on the outside of their home, advertising their home had an alarm).
Takeover type home invasion are generally not random. They usually involve drugs or people who keep large amounts of money or valuables in their home and it is KNOWN that they do. An example again, is my city had a number of well coordinated home invasions that targeted Korean business owners. This was because they knew the Koreans did not deposit the money in banks(to avoid reporting income and paying Federal taxes, thats another story), they took and kept large amounts of cash in their home.
The person or persons that typically break into your home are going to be: the neighborhood teenager looking to steal stuff real quick (generally go through unlocked doors). Your people that are high on drugs (these are usually random). These people WILL cause harm to you. Or the neighborhood psycho that breaks in to rape or kill you.
I do believe in keeping cell phones nearby(in case power is cut), also know what you are going to say after you dial 911. For example where I live (a municipality, but with County nearby), if I dial 911 from my cell phone, I may get County dispatch where they are going to have to transfer me to my local PD dispatch. And remember you are calling from a cell phone where dispatch does not know your exact location. So be ready to say your address quickly and coherently.
The layout of my house is tricky, but I have a plan with my wife to grab our kids and retreat to a room upstairs (and yes I do have a roll out fire ladder :)). I keep a .40 cal pistol nearby loaded ready to go, it also has a taclight on the rail. The rest of my guns are locked up. Rifles are great, but use what your are most comfortable shooting especially if you have loved ones in the house. I believe in keeping the house dark. This is to your advantage as you know the layout of the house and the bad guy does not. You will also be able to use your light more effectively if you shine it in bad guys eyes. I do not believe in announcing your presence (you give your location away) and I see no advantage in doing so.
Here in Texas, sometimes homeowners shoot people while they are still outside on the porch possibly attempting to break in. I would recommend waiting till you know FOR SURE they are about to break in. Sometimes it really is just some drunk guy who went to the wrong house not knowing where the heck he is.
These are all based on my experiences in law enforcement.
30 cal slut
03-15-10, 22:27
i'm gonna stick my neck out and say that at some point when things go bump in the night, i'm going to be inevitably exposing myself to a threat while gathering my family to "safety." whatever that is.
this is due to the layout of my digs (very open).
i will likely have no choice but to engage a perp in the process of gathering up family members located in different rooms... if i'm lucky enough to wake up in time.
given the relatively flimsy construction of homes nowadays, hiding behind a door barricaded with furniture ... won't do jack other than buy a little bit of time.
it really doesn't take that much effort for an adult to kick down a door or even through sheetrock.
if the perp is armed, sheetrock won't do much to stop projectiles.
realistically, i am mentally resigned to a fight.
it may not help all that much, but i know the layout of my home better than anyone else, including the cops.
secondly, i think it somewhat unlikely that i'll be dealing with trained adversaries.
my procedure is if i have time, reach for the carbine w/ white light and a mag loaded with Hornady TAP 55 gr.
if not, then 9mm pistol (w/ surefire X series) with the one mag in the pistol (winchester ranger +P).
all options are locked away in mechanical simplex button gun vaults, in condition three.
alarm system always on.
charged or charging cell phone always within reach.
constant observation and lookout for suspicious vehicles and persons.
I keep a fanny pack next to the bed with a spare pistol mag in it. A SureFire light and my charging cell phone sit on the nightstand. The fanny pack acts as a holster, mag pouch and dump pouch that needs no clothes. I can just clip it around my waist and I'm good to go. I'd rather have my shotgun or carbine, as well as armor and a proper war belt, but there's no way I'd get any of that stuff buckled on in time, so I plan for the pistol and the fanny pack with supplies. One thing I'm pondering is adding a blow-out kit to the fanny pack.
First post here, great thread. Learning lots of stuff and see that our own home defense needs some revision.
We live on a small 16 acre hobby farm (meaning that we don't farm for a living, it's for our own pleasure). My day job allows me to work from home most of the time and when I'm home, I'm always armed. There are just too many times I have to go outside and tend to a horse or a cow or whatever and it's just to risky to leave a gun around with my kids here, even though they ALL have been thoroughly indoctrinacted on the rules...
If our dogs start alerting us at night that somethings up, as much as I'd like to hole up inside and ensure the safety of the family, since the barking could indicate coyotes or some other predator going after livestock, I go outside to investigate w/ the AR which always has 240 lumens of goodness shining the way. Of course I always make sure it isn't something or someone inside first, or someone WANTING to get inside, and before I go outside the XD40 gets handed to the wife so she can be ready too.
Thankfully, it's very peaceful out here in the country and crime is very low. However we have to be ever vigilant. You can't ever be lulled into a false sense of "aw, it's never gonna happen out HERE!" I can't tell you the # of people who never lock their doors to houses or cars out here. Hell, I've been guilty of it too...
Nice to be here, lots of good food for my brain. Thanks...
I keep a fanny pack next to the bed with a spare pistol mag in it. A SureFire light and my charging cell phone sit on the nightstand. The fanny pack acts as a holster, mag pouch and dump pouch that needs no clothes. I can just clip it around my waist and I'm good to go. I'd rather have my shotgun or carbine, as well as armor and a proper war belt, but there's no way I'd get any of that stuff buckled on in time, so I plan for the pistol and the fanny pack with supplies. One thing I'm pondering is adding a blow-out kit to the fanny pack.
I have an article coming out in SWAT in the next couple of months on this concept. I have BOK supplies in mine. Pistol w/ X200, flashlight, spare mag, knife, and med supplies.
Why don't use a plate carrier in that role? Get a used one (even airsoft will do as quality tends to show only with prolonged use) with old
body armor/plates and you are having a far more versatile and ergonomic system to carry magazines, pepper spray grenades, flashlight,
first aid stuff and cell phone while bullet proofing you at least against handgun threats.
Is there a legal issue with handcuffing someone who invades your home illegally?
Like, having a set of flex cuffs to use to restrain someone until the cops arrive if you live in a rural area where first responders are 30 minutes or more away?
There's a safety issue with handcuffing them--your safety.
Criminals train to turn the tables on handcuffing officers. There are correct ways to do it, but unless you are well trained and well practiced in the correct methods, you don't want your first experience handcuffing someone for real to be in your own house.
There's a safety issue with handcuffing them--your safety.
Criminals train to turn the tables on handcuffing officers. There are correct ways to do it, but unless you are well trained and well practiced in the correct methods, you don't want your first experience handcuffing someone for real to be in your own house.
Gotcha. Thanks.
Is there a legal issue with handcuffing someone who invades your home illegally?
Like, having a set of flex cuffs to use to restrain someone until the cops arrive if you live in a rural area where first responders are 30 minutes or more away?
No and I suggest everyone have a set of them.
C4
Why don't use a plate carrier in that role? Get a used one (even airsoft will do as quality tends to show only with prolonged use) with old
body armor/plates and you are having a far more versatile and ergonomic system to carry magazines, pepper spray grenades, flashlight,
first aid stuff and cell phone while bullet proofing you at least against handgun threats.
A few reasons.
As compared to the fag bag, it's not very low-profile.
As compared to the "battle belt" and the fag bag it's slower to put on for most people. Bag and belt just require a simple *click* to put on.
I understand that some people do keep armor handy, and that's a viable option, but there are pros and cons to ever setup.
Cincinnatus
04-22-10, 11:50
Why don't use a plate carrier in that role? Get a used one (even airsoft will do as quality tends to show only with prolonged use) with old
body armor/plates and you are having a far more versatile and ergonomic system to carry magazines, pepper spray grenades, flashlight,
first aid stuff and cell phone while bullet proofing you at least against handgun threats.
Is there any Federal prohibition to civilians owning body armor or ceramic plates? I know some states regulate this, but not sure about Feds.
BLACK LION
04-22-10, 12:33
No and I suggest everyone have a set of them.
C4
GTG...
I own a set of cuffs for restraining a threat but only after they are completely incapacitated.
I have to say I like zip ties more since they can be pre threaded and and stoed in a looped status....easier to just put over someones appendages and pull.
GTG...
I own a set of cuffs for restraining a threat but only after they are completely incapacitated.
I have to say I like zip ties more since they can be pre threaded and and stoed in a looped status....easier to just put over someones appendages and pull.
Understand. I carry a set of handcuffs either on me or in my man purse (murse) so zip ties really doesn't work for me and my situation.
C4
I too am coming in late to this conversation and I really appreciate all of the knowledge and input I have read on this thread so far. This topic has occupied too much of my time for too many years.
Basically what I have settled for for now is two handguns in a bedside safe with lights, a belt that I can just throw over my shoulder if needed with 2 reloads, one streamlight scorpion, old cell phone which is charged regularly (since even disconnected/canceled cell phones will dial 911), handcuffs, fixed blade knife and pepper spray and a holster. I also have body armor that I have practiced and practiced donning quickly. We do have a monitored alarm system with battery backup that we put on every time we leave and at night. It also has panic buttons in our master bedroom.
I don't plan on handcuffing an intruder myself. I have multiple LEO friends I have discussed this with and as of right now I plan to toss the cuffs to the intruder instructing them to put them on with their hands behind their back then lay facedown on the floor with their legs crossed. Lack of compliance will be met with deadly force as allowed by law. Once they are facedown only then will I approach to tighten the cuffs with my handgun drawn, safety off with finger on the trigger warning the intruder that any sudden movement will result in their being shot.
The unfortunate part (tactically speaking only) is I have 4 small children who's bedrooms are on the other side of the house from our master. My home is also a tactical nightmare to clear. It has a very open floor plan with multiple blind corners and openings to several rooms from any one position at odd angles of opening. So basically in order to secure my children I must leave my wife in our room (armed of course) and run as fast as I can through the gauntlet to their hallway to get them.
I also know that when one of them starts crying at night, my wife or I don't bother arming ourselves we just run to check on them. Probably tactically stupid but my home has never been invaded and at least one child wakes up crying at least once a week.
Now if the alarm goes off that is another deal. Then at least, I will grab the gun and now the belt and hope to remember the body armor. I do go to investigate simply because I will protect my family.
I do have other handguns hidden throughout the house in handgun safes which I realize is a compromise but given the children safes are needed unless I can train myself to carry constantly at home. I do live in a very safe (so far), small neighborhood and know every one of my neighbors personally. We do look out for each other and will let each other know if we have seen something suspicious. Like a suspicious person or vehicle seen in the neighborhood. At those few times when an alert like that has gone out I do carry constantly for a while.
Dirk Williams
04-26-10, 13:16
Huntindoc,
I'd like to ask you to re-think throwing the cuff's to the turd to cuff himself. Hand cuffs can be a deadly weapon when swung in any direction. If hit in the head by a set of handcuffs your going down for the count.
I realize you will get 4800 different answers here, mine is just re-think your stradegy. Do not throw the turd the cuffs, don't get near him or them.
If they don't comply and their in your casa exercise your rights to protect your family. There's some luggage that will come with it That's all post shooting related shit.
The important issue is your still alive as is your family.
Good luck
D Williams
Huntindoc,
I'd like to ask you to re-think throwing the cuff's to the turd to cuff himself. Hand cuffs can be a deadly weapon when swung in any direction. If hit in the head by a set of handcuffs your going down for the count.
I realize you will get 4800 different answers here, mine is just re-think your stradegy. Do not throw the turd the cuffs, don't get near him or them.
If they don't comply and their in your casa exercise your rights to protect your family. There's some luggage that will come with it That's all post shooting related shit.
The important issue is your still alive as is your family.
Good luck
D Williams
Plus if you do shoot the BG who is cuffed and on the floor I would not want to explain that to a jury.
Buckaroo
FTS, Great thread as always. I have responded to odd sounds in the night many times. Sometimes its just people with a broke down car, or people walking down the street talking loud. In the past prior to be a gun owner I have had people attempt to break in to our home. Sadly they managed to do so while we were gone. Outside dogs are a good thing to keep people away & work for an early alarm.
Like you I keep the pistol on the nightstand with a hand held light. I do not however have a weapon mounted light. Reasons for this are that my pistol is my everyday carry & I do not have a holster for ccw that allows a light.
When you have a child in your home placement & readiness of firearms are somewhat dictated by your child. I do not want to leave a loaded & ready weapon lying around for her or her friends if they come over. Now I have taught my daughter about firearm safety, but I still don't trust kids to not do something stupid.
Anyway thanks for the info.
I live in a cul-de-sac....
1. .308 rifle in the bedroom closet for distance threats. "Don’t worry about what those wooden sticks are in the ground with the colored tips.... that’s for me to know!" <-----not kidding
2. Ar in the bed room closet, running light system and red dot optic.
3. Loaded p226 .40 cal in the night stand.
4. loaded Glock 26 in the bedroom bathroom. (you never know when the shi**ter may become a hide)
5. Remington 870 in the kitchen (I'm not telling where.)
6. Ar in the garage loaded, same optic and lighting system ready to go.
Yes, I shoot all of them VERY often, and clean them regularly.
****except the .308, I liked that fouled****
dancinzen@hotmail.com
06-08-10, 19:33
shotgun by the bed is my option! but in the case of not wanting my spray to hit anything beyond my house i have a g19 there as well...
I have a Glock 22 & Glock 27 in the bedroom. My long guns are usually in my safe.
I've thought about this quite a bit and this is the best plan I have (for now) for our situation.
We have a two story typical suburban home. The front door opens to the entry with the stairs right there. All bedrooms are upstairs with the master split from the kids' rooms.
We have two dogs; a 9 year old female mixed breed that is good for barking but not much more and a 6 year old GSD (imported with some Schutzhund and Ring training) that is happy to bark. I don't count on the dogs for anything but deterrence and warning.
Our plan for an intrusion is for my wife to take the XD and get 9-1-1 on the cell phone. I used to rely on a Mossberg 12g with #4 in the magazine and 00B and 1oz slugs in the side saddle.
Now that I have the AR with a red dot, I'll take it.
If said intruder continues entry through the dogs, I will cover the stairs from the master bedroom door as I have a clear view/shot down the stairs and the access area to the stairs. Also, as the kids rooms are across the house, my field of fire is down and away from them.
No one gets upstairs without me seeing them or being able to confront.
Now if I can't get moving before they get upstairs, everything gets much more risky and necessary.
RancidSumo
06-10-10, 18:45
I keep my BCM within reach of my bed with a surefire light and 30rds of 75gr TAP. I'm in the basement but have family on both the middle and top floors.
I do have a dog that likes to bark at everything that moves and the door is right above my bedroom window so anything that comes near it, I know. Even people walking on the deck when I'm asleep wake me up. Add to that, I'm a night owl and always up very late so odds are I'm going to hear the threat coming.
My plan, in order to protect myself and family, is to grab the rifle and head up the first flight of stairs and wait at the bottom of the second. This provides a clear view of the door and middle floor of the house.
4. As for armor and belts and all that jazz probably not. I would rather stop the threat immediately then be dicking around and get caught with my pants down.
First I reach for an AR that is in condition 1 with 225 lumen surefire on it. Sig 220R there too, also condition 1. The last thing I want to do when waking up surprised/with adrenaline is to have to chamber a round. For me, no delay, no risk of jam, no risk of getting a bedsheet stuck in the chamber, etc.
There is an OTV all rigged up in the closet if the situation were to require it (ACORN riots in my front yard?? ).
1) 590 A1 mounted on the wall with quick release mounts above my bed. Ranger LE low-recoil 9 pellet "00" loaded.
2) Ruger Security Six in the nightstand next to the bed with low-flash/low-recoil rounds.
3) DD M4 in the main room in a very custom "light stand" gun hiding case (I built it to my persoanl spec, I put my DD M4 inside and close a small door that conceals it, to open the door, you push in on a hidden button. Not even my wife; who knows how much of a sneaky ass fox I am, considered it a hiding place (And she knows how I like to hide guns around the house), she just though I built a new light stand for her to go in our living room)
4) Ruger P95 in the bathroom in a flase panel in the wall
5) S&W chiefs special in the kitchen in the "utility drawer" I built with a flase bottom.
6) Ruger P95 in a false drawer in my coffee table in the main room.
7) Ruger P95 in the basement; in a quick-open biometric wall safe.
8) Ruger 10/22 in the garage in fasle wall.
PLenty of others in the gun safe locked up ready to go, and plenty of others hidden I don't care to mention here or elsewhere.
I keep all with a round chambered, cocked ready to go, nothing worse than dying becuase you have too much adrenaline and you cannot grip your slide enough to pull it back, or a round doesn't feed properly. My M4 is kept with (1) Pmag-30 with only (20) rounds in.
My eyes are so good at night I would be giving the BG a heads up with a flashlight; where as I could see him in pitch black, in MOST cases, and not be seen myself.
I do agree hiding guns around the house in places that are accessible to potential intruders/BG's is just ignorant. But creating and defining a well rounded hiding place is much differen't. IN order to hide a gun properly, ou have to get into the mind-set of a criminal and think of where they might potentially look to find a weapon to either use against you or to sell or use in another crime. If you take the time to put yourslef in that mindset,m you can eliminate poorly hidden guns, and have plenty of options all around the house for whatever scenario arises.
Build your own hiding places so no one can see an obvious manufactured hiding spot (EG- Those stupid back up key holders that are supposed to look like rocks; making you think you are concealing a key to your home in your front yard).
Take the time to observe your own habits and realize where a SD/HD gun might best be located for what you do in your own home (IE: WHy put a gun in the guest bedroom if you never find yourself there?).
Of course, no amount of guns or ammo will save you if you don't train yourself and have a plan. Before we practiced so much the wife was all shacky in these "practice runs". SHe was anxious, shacky and downright confused for a while, but as we kept up with the training/routine, she became a badass with hardened nerves. The wife knows exactly what to do now since we practiced every ****ing day for the last 5 years; if a BG comes into my house, we will be like robots, following the protocal we have programmed ourselves to.
One of my instructors at work told us something that he heard from a class that he took that has etched itself in my brain. It seems that this person teaching this class that my instructor was attending was a retired officer who worked some sort of bank robbery detail in the 80's-90's. Here is what I remembered that he said,
"I've used pretty much every type of gun/caliber gun out there while I was on this task force. And while on this task force, Ive been involved in a lot of shootings. And this is what I have taken from them. When you get into a shooting..and you shoot someone. Do you know what the guys usually does right after you shoot him? THE SAME GYAT DAMN THING HE WAS DOING BEFORE YOU SHOT HIM! HES STILL SHOOTING AT YOU!!" I take those words to heart. No warning shots..no breaks...No thinking about it twice...
Sounds like something Jim Cirillo would say. He was a member of the NYPD stake out squad.
Wow eight plus loaded guns hidden in the house! I woul like to build a hidden storage case for a pistol.
Something I heard a former Drill Sgt say, "you don't stop shooting at the enemy when you think that the enemy is dead, you stop shooting when he think he is dead.":haha:
Jay Cunningham
07-31-10, 01:33
I think it's a bit more simple (and more secure) to keep a gun *on you* as much as practically possible vs. stashing loaded guns all over the house.
Every one is different. For me eight listed with more not listed is too many guns. It is not wrong it is just not for me.
I have three kids, 2, 4 & 7 and they get into everything. My daily carry gun a G27 and G22 duty gun are always loaded and fairly accessible while fairly secure. I grew up in Massachusetts an think they have taken things way to far. There is a trigger lock on a flintlock that hangs in the state house.
I have more guns in my safe which are not readily avalible.
We all need to strike a balance. Carrying on your person is probabaly the best answer. I am willing to do that when I go out but not willing to at home 100% of the time.
Von Rheydt
07-31-10, 11:51
Ok, so I am a Brit and we have a different approach. However, I think in this case and in consideration of what I have read from some folks that our approach is a tad better.
Some of you go on about preparing for firefights in the home and others go on about having had the training and being cautious. I had the training and the training and the training, we used to say "You are only as good as your last training day" ....... you don't train you don't go home.
Think to the Tueller Drill (for those who don't know: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill ). Now go stand by your front door and see how far you can storm into your house inside 1.5 seconds. Now when I get woken up in the night it takes me a good 10 - 20 seconds to even consider being coherent (I don't drink, smoke or take pills) and probably 40 seconds before I could react. So, do the Tueller Drill again for 10 - 20 seconds this time, with a rolled up newspaper, see if you can stick the pillow on your bed........go on, I dare you.
Your yawning now, but stick with it. I did used to be a UK LEO and I did have some experience of home security planning.........in the UK we ain't allowed to own guns for self defence. Your problems start big time once a bad guy gets in the house..........so keep the phuqers out.
Doors and windows need to be secure:
Doors need decent locking mechanisms and security features such as bolts and chains. An armoured door is nice - there are plenty of companies making doors out there that will put a steel plate or kevlar in their product along with the normal foam that is put in. If you have glass at the side of the door get it covered in security film so they can't just reach in and open the door after breaking the glass.
Windows, preferably double glazed with security glass as one layer. Or, security film over the glass and fit extra locking locks to windows - again so that the bad guys can't quietly break one piece of glass and reach in to open the window.
Active security lighting works a treat. Not the stuff that stays on all the time so that the bad guy can see what he is doing. The best ones are the ones that come on and flash and are connected to a wireless alarm. When you are placing the lights put yourself in the head of a sneaky bad guy. I particularly like the lights wired to discretely placed PIR units.
Infra red beams are good if you have a big perimeter. I know a lot of farmers that used to put them up to act as early warning systems. Placed at around waist height with a hood to hide the glow small animals will not activate them and two legged game will not expect them. With thought you can zone a property with these to give plenty of eaqrly warning and alson know the direction of trouble.
The rubber tube thing connected to a bell that garages used to put out on the forecourt works well if you have a long driveway. I have seen a few of these on bigger houses. The thing is that most scrotes are lazy and will drive as far as possible.
TV cameras are a big thing in the UK, much bigger than here in the USA. I know many people back home that have a multiple camera system set up outside and inside their homes. This is then fed thru the TV in the family room and the master bedroom.
From what I have seen of many single story houses here they would allow the fitting of an ornate style gate a few feet into the house. Lock this at night and when they kick in the front door "Oh look a gate, lets go home". UK homes, do not in the main, open directly into the home rather they have a vestibule area that can be locked giving an extra layer of security.
Two storey homes can have a gate fitted on the stairs. We had a child gate to stop our little one from walking downstairs at night. It was locked with a latch and easy to open if you knew how. But, if a burglar got in and did the Tueller Drill in my house he would have been flumoxed by the gate with me standing over him on the upstairs landing.
Fit a small independent light circuit in the house that turns on from your bedroom. Speak to an electrician. Get a flashing blue light and siren added to this circuit...........good for parties and impressing the neighbours.
No houses do not look like Fort Knox if they are well protected. Europe has been doing it like this for years. Sort out your first line protection and it gives you plenty of warning to prepare for unexpected visitors. Then when you are informed of the situation and coherent of thought you can run around with your tackle swinging in the wind wielding firearms scaring away bad guys.
Most bad guys are lazy and shit scared. If they were going to work hard they would'nt be robbing folks. They always go for the easiest target or option....... so make it harder for them. Yes, they are shit scared when committing the act ask any cop. I have visited the scene of many burglaries where the perpetrator was so scared they have pissed and/or shit in the corner of a room in the house they were burglarising.
There we go a few options for your consideration. Theres a lot of paperwork if you shoot someone, I know.
Excellent information. A hard target is much easier to defend. Thanks fo sharing a different point of view.
Failure2Stop
07-31-10, 14:46
Good info there Von.
Cheers.
jasonhgross
08-06-10, 11:49
Von makes excellent points. I think your best option is go get an early warning system, good locks on doors and windows, think about your perimiter, get good lighting, and a security system (if you arent renting), think about your neighborhood where you choose to live. After all that, finally, think about guns. I think as gun guys we all like to think about armaments first, but really, this should be the final consideration because without hardened entry points and early warning systems of some sort, the guns are much usable.
I'd like to hear from other members here. Please don't start pissing contests or penis measuring which makes the thread get locked. This could happen to just about anyone. How will or would you respond?
I wanted to touch on this since we just had a situation tonight. I am sure that many of you have some type of HD plan, and you have probably talked it over once or twice. But, is everyone listening? Are you complacent?
This evening around 800 PM everyone was in their mode. Dinner was over, my son was playing Modern Warfare 2 online and the wife was reading her ebook thing. I was on the computer doing my usual.
Then there was a knock at the door. She got up, looked through the peephole and saw a young male. She automatically assumed that it was one of our sons friends and opened the door. I started walking to the door when I heard her say that he had blood on his shirt and he was asking for help. I told her to shut the door and lock it now! Of course motherly instincts took over and she didn't. I went to the room grabbed my pistol and was back out within seconds.
Apparently he had been in an altercation with some other "kids" in the neighboorhood and had been stuck or stabbed with something (it wasn't very serious).
I then called 911 on my cell and stood by. My wife handed him the home phone so he could call his mother. My immediate thought was that this was a potential home invasion (a similar situation happened not far from here) or that the other party he had been involved with was nearby and might show up.
While he talked with his mother I told the police dispatcher what was happening and gave them a full description.
By the time I finished with 911, he had finished his call and said he would wait outside for his mother to show up. My wife closed and locked the door (finally).
The kid then disappeared around the corner. As I looked through the window I saw the first unit approaching. I advised the officer that he had left as well as his last direction of travel. He was located just down the street. (Their response time was very fast!)
The officer came back and took a brief statement and then began to lecture my wife about opening doors. I am glad he did that way I wasn't the only one.
So what are some the lessons learned?
1. If you have a plan talk it over more often than just once or twice. We did it again and plan on more in the future.
2. What do you do if someone knocks on the door? It wasn't obscenely late and the person was a juvenile? My guidance has been ask how or what they need before hand. If our son is home he should look and see if he knows the person.
3. Just because the person is a teenager or child don't assume there is no threat.
4. In my case I will make sure that my firearm is in the kitchen/ great room area whenever I am here.
5. Install a security door. We considered it before but it isn't easy due to the porch light that was installed in a stupid location.
ColdDeadHands
08-12-10, 07:03
I'm glad everything worked out ok for you and your family!
We have fencing around the property and a Doberman running the place. I know that he will bite because the stupid UPS man while delivering a package asked me if the dog will bite...he stuck his hand thru the gate before I could answer and my trusty Doberman bit him. So I'm pretty sure nobody will be knocking at my door...if somebody knocks I know they mean harm because they must have harmed my dog before getting to the door. Inside the house I have a Pit Bull and a Lab Mix and they go absolutely nuts if somebody they don't know comes in...I have to put them in another room before we get visitors and even then they hit the door trying to get out. They are a pain in the ass when we have guests but I would not want to enter the house if I was a crook.
I highly recommend to anybody to fence their place and put a decent dog in it.
3. Just because the person is a teenager or child don't assume there is no threat.
That is one simple and free thing that could save a lot of people from becoming victims. The number of violent crimes being committed by teenagers is alarming. I've also noticed that at least around here, the more senseless and violent the crime is, the younger the criminal usually is. Sadly, they all too often use someone's good nature against them, and with women, their motherly instincts.
I'm lucky in that my fiancee understands that, so it's not something I have to worry about much with her. I think if someone has a significant other or anyone else in the family who is too often over-trusting, it's a good idea to start pointing out crimes that have happened in the area, and the suspects' ages if they are young. A lot of people don't regularly watch the local news, read the police blotter, etc, so they don't have a clue just how dangerous their area has become. You can't convince someone to prepare for a threat if they don't believe a threat exists.
ETA: Listening to a scanner is a great way to know more about what is going on in your neighborhood. With http://www.radioreference.com/ people in a lot of areas don't even need to buy one. The police respond to a ton of calls that don't make the news, and it's a good way to find out what kinds of crimes are being committed in your area, suspect descriptions, vehicle descriptions, etc. I just run it in the background, and don't really actively listen to it. You just kind of automatically tune in when your ear hears a location that you know well or when something really alarming comes across the radio.
Great points, Iraqgunz.
Many home invasions begin as some ruse to get someone to open the door. Often it is someone unlikely looking. It could even be a woman with a story like someone out there is after her or she needs to get in to use your phone to report an accident or that her kid is lost, or that they accidentally hit your car parked in front.
VERY good points.
My wife needs to read Iraqgunz's experience as she is all too forthcoming on opening up the front door whenever someone rings or knocks on it.
If you have glass at the side of the door get it covered in security film so they can't just reach in and open the door after breaking the glass.
Lots of good info but I really liked this part and did some research. Looks like these guys are pretty shit hot, http://www.acesecuritylaminates.com/index.htm, after watching a few comparison videos to 3M. Google: window security film and check out the videos.
Also the box strike, as was previously mentioned, is a great idea along with a high security deadbolt. Regular do it yourself home improvement store deadbolts are easily defeated through picking, kicking and bump keys (Google it). After quite a bit of reading these guys seem to be at or near the top of the list http://www.medeco.com/.
The laminate, box strike and high security deadbolt will be the first additions to the new house before moving in in a couple of weeks, fingers crossed. Along with that I'll be getting an alarm system installed. ADT installed our current one for free along with a contract but I'm wondering if there are better options out there? Anybody have any advice or would it be better to start a new thread on electronic house security options?
I think it's a bit more simple (and more secure) to keep a gun *on you* as much as practically possible vs. stashing loaded guns all over the house.
What we are currently doing - got tired of putting several guns back in the safe in the AM and taking them out of the safe when we got home.
CCW M&P9 is also the night stand home defense weapon.
:D
Maritime Enf Spec.
09-13-10, 13:36
I keep a Springfield 1911 ready to go, saftey on next to bed as well as a S&W MP15 with light full PMAG also ready to go, and my roomates have a SKS and PPK in case things get real hairy.
My family lives in a two story house and everyone sleeps on the second story. If an intruder broke in, we could probably seal off the stairs and call for the police. I usually keep a glock 9mm and a shotgun ready with a surefire G2 on the shelf nearby.
Dogs make noise...whether they bite or not, they buy time and make the house less desirable to criminals from all the racket.
From the real world bites I've seen, little dogs "nip" hands and legs. Big dogs bite the Sh*% out of people. Punctures and massive tears occur. Tendons, muscles and flesh easily gone or dangling in seconds.
My favorite quote from people who were bitten is "He/she is really a very good dog." I always ask what kind of dog....90% pit bull easy.
TR
I was with you until the last sentence. Dogs are like people, they usually act in accordance with their raising. I know there are exceptions but I have found, and reasearch shows, that this is usually the case. The American Temperment Test Society found that pit bulls usually rank higher (being better) on their temperment tests than German Shepherds, Golden Retrievers and Doberman Pinschers. (http://www.atts.org/stats1.html)
Personally, I have an American Pit Bull Terrier that is and always has been a great dog. She loves kids and people she is familiar with in general but will not let a stranger close to the house.
Anyway, the whole reason for my post was to say that many criminals will admit that they usually stay away from homes that have dogs, specifically homes with more than one dog. Regardless of the breed someone chooses, I recommend they get more than one.
I'm new here but I have a few things I'd like to share. While I won't divulge all of my protocols for home security I will share a few key points.
I keep a USPC 9mm, E2D LED, and cell phone right next to the bed with a 870P next to my bedroom door. I can get to the pistol in seconds and within three steps to the shotgun. At the first sign of noise/trouble my girlfriend calls 911 while I get to my guns. I take a position at the top of the steps and wait for help.
In order to better hear an attack coming, at all major entry points I have a baby monitor stationed very close by. One by the front door, sliding glass door and garage door leading into the house. They are very effective for picking up the slightest sound and give me a chance to here what's going on. I color coded the antennas of the receivers so I know exactly where the noise is coming from.
I have a front door key on a glow in the dark key chain that I can throw out of the window and direct the police to, to enter my home if need be.
I also keep a two way radio with extra batteries in the night stand in case the cell/land line doesn't work.
I'm new here but I have a few things I'd like to share. While I won't divulge all of my protocols for home security I will share a few key points.
I keep a USPC 9mm, E2D LED, and cell phone right next to the bed with a 870P next to my bedroom door. I can get to the pistol in seconds and within three steps to the shotgun. At the first sign of noise/trouble my girlfriend calls 911 while I get to my guns. I take a position at the top of the steps and wait for help.
In order to better hear an attack coming, at all major entry points I have a baby monitor stationed very close by. One by the front door, sliding glass door and garage door leading into the house. They are very effective for picking up the slightest sound and give me a chance to here what's going on. I color coded the antennas of the receivers so I know exactly where the noise is coming from.
I have a front door key on a glow in the dark key chain that I can throw out of the window and direct the police to, to enter my home if need be.
I also keep a two way radio with extra batteries in the night stand in case the cell/land line doesn't work.
Thats funny about the baby monitor's...I kinda do the same thing. My monitor is pretty sensitive so I have one on each level.
Lots of good info but I really liked this part and did some research. Looks like these guys are pretty shit hot, http://www.acesecuritylaminates.com/index.htm, after watching a few comparison videos to 3M. Google: window security film and check out the videos.
Also the box strike, as was previously mentioned, is a great idea along with a high security deadbolt. Regular do it yourself home improvement store deadbolts are easily defeated through picking, kicking and bump keys (Google it). After quite a bit of reading these guys seem to be at or near the top of the list http://www.medeco.com/.
The laminate, box strike and high security deadbolt will be the first additions to the new house before moving in in a couple of weeks, fingers crossed. Along with that I'll be getting an alarm system installed. ADT installed our current one for free along with a contract but I'm wondering if there are better options out there? Anybody have any advice or would it be better to start a new thread on electronic house security options?
I just changed the lock on my door but it actually got me thinking. Ive kicked in my fare share of doors during search warrants and it's not the lock that usually gives - its the door frame thats thin and flimsy. Have any of you strenthened your frames at all? My area was plagued by a burglar who basically kicked the front door i, ran and grabbed whatever he saw and he was out..
$CashMoney$
11-22-10, 09:02
I have a front door key on a glow in the dark key chain that I can throw out of the window and direct the police to, to enter my home if need be.
I also keep a two way radio with extra batteries in the night stand in case the cell/land line doesn't work.
These are two VERY good ideas that I haven't thought of. I'm getting it done today.
I don't carry all the time in the house, but I almost always have my M9 (still in the military so I like to train with what I use for real) loaded and nearby. My wife has a M&P 9mm that she's used in Kay Miculek's course and she shoots IPSC a few times a year, so she's handy enough with it.
We have two dogs who love people so much that they bark like crazy whenever someone comes to the door. The barks sound VERY aggressive and most people won't come into the house until we secure the dogs. Funny, because they're both big babies, but no burglar would probably know that.
We also have a good house alarm. Every opening is on the alarm, and it's always armed to instant when we're home. There are also two motion detectors in case somehow the alarm didn't go off. I don't know how that would happen. The alarm works over a cell phone, so there's no cutting a phone line, and it has a 96 hour backup battery.
Outside the house, there are motion sensor lights covering the entire perimeter. Not a big deterrent, but they're a force multiplier.
If/when we do hear the big bump in the night, I grab my beretta with light and go straight to the potential threat, always trailing the dogs by at least one corner. The wife grabs her cell phone and her pistol, chambers a round, and moves to the room with the gun safe as soon as I leave the bedroom. Our floor plan allows her to do this; there is no outside access to this room. She dials 911, ready to press send on the first crack or scream. Then she goes through the entire combination on the safe before the last number, so if she needs her (or my) AR or more ammo, it's right there. We rehearse this regularly, which I think is very important to ensure success.
We also have a good trauma first aid kit ready with tourniquettes, quick clot combat gauze, regular gauze, and semi occlusive and occlusive dressings. My wife is in nursing school, and I've done a lot of combat first aid training, including live tissue, so we're both pretty good with this.
Aside for the pistols, all guns are locked in a safe. The pistols are locked up if we're gone. It's impossible to get a CCW in my state, so we both carry and practice with good folding knives (we have trainers for them too.) Occasionally I'll borrow one of the Tony Blauer High Gear suits from work and "attack" my wife and let her defend herself in and out of the house. She uses her training knife and her ASP "red gun" in realistic scenarios.
I hope we never have to use any of this, but if we do, I think the rehearsals will pay off.
I guess I am a big proponent of body armor and here is why. Most people think it is slow to put it on. It is all a matter of technique.
For us working in Iraq or Astan, rocket or mortar attacks can be common. You learn to get your armor on quickly. I found that putting on my full "work" vest to be slow since you normally have to use two hands due to the weight. In the dark it is even harder and things can get hung up as you are throwing it on. So, I went with a simple plate carrier with just a med kit on the front. I draped it over my night table with the rear plate flat on top of the table and the front plate hanging down in front. Since the rear plate has no kit on it, it lays flat. The inside portion of the carrier is facing up.
When I put it on, I simply grab the rear portion off the table and throw it over my head. This action can also be done with one hand if needed. Another way is to roll out of bed onto the floor (commonly done during attacks) and walk on all fours until your head goes goes into the plate carrier. I never sleep in a totally darkened room due to these constant threats. I want to see just enough to get to my kit. Oftentimes, this means nothing more than the glow from my laptop's screen.
People think putting on armor is slow because they only put it on for shooting courses and it is normally fastened. It is really a matter of a lack of training with the vest. You do not have to buckle the plate carrier right away. The weight will let it hang naturally over your chest.
I was really thinking about getting some sort of armor for home protection. I am looking at the Interceptor soft armor system with no plates, just a plate carrier with stand alones, or a police style concealed vest. Which would be quickest to put on? Would I be better served by a small plate or a large soft armor system. I dont think I Would have home invaders armed with rifles but better to have and not need in todays world.
If I went with the plate carrier or interceptor, could I add an IFAK, quick single rifle reload (for a double feed), serpa platemounted speed pistol holster, some sort of knife and a spare surefire?
I was thinking keep a pistol and light next to my bed. Does the surefire x300 switch from glock to sig to pic rail without changing the little plastic piece or is it a pain like the stream light slr?
I dont want to clear my house but I have to get the youngsters out of their and into my room. Luckly we are all on the second floor.
Can you guys reccomend any tactics for having to clear my second floor? Our room is on the right side far end of the hall. We have a stairway next to it that leads down to the first. Its a long hall with the kids at the other hall which has another stair way. Maybe have the other half cover the stair way by our room and lock the one by the kids at night.
I carry 24/7 and never leave unsecure guns lay around my house. I keep a rifle in my room for her and one for me. I really need a light that I cant throw on before bed for my carry gun.
Thinking about hiding a baby monitor that will wake me up if there is sound down stairs and one of these dog alarms.
http://www.dutchguard.com/rex-p-persec.html
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