View Full Version : M&P 15 tactical
Hello all. Noob here, both to the forum and to the AR platform, let me say it outright. Im looking for an entry level complete kit from a reputable brand. Ive researched RRA, Bushy, and M&P among others. Lately, the M&P 15T has caught my eye. It has Troy Ind railing, and Troy flip up front and back, chrome lined free floated barrel, etc. Seems to be a good $500 worth of accessories that I will undoubtedly spring for anyway. Anyone with any experience with this model? Again, it need only be an entry level canvas I can accessorize and have fun with.
Hello all. Noob here, both to the forum and to the AR platform, let me say it outright. Im looking for an entry level complete kit from a reputable brand. Ive researched RRA, Bushy, and M&P among others. Lately, the M&P 15T has caught my eye. It has Troy Ind railing, and Troy flip up front and back, chrome lined free floated barrel, etc. Seems to be a good $500 worth of accessories that I will undoubtedly spring for anyway. Anyone with any experience with this model? Again, it need only be an entry level canvas I can accessorize and have fun with.
Then get a Colt 6920 and outfit it to your liking.
How much total would you be paying for the MP15T? They seem to be going for 1300-1400 around here. For around the same price you can get a Colt or for just a bit more you can get a DDM4.
How much total would you be paying for the MP15T? They seem to be going for 1300-1400 around here. For around the same price you can get a Colt or for just a bit more you can get a DDM4.
Im seeing the same, $1399 or so. If you dont mind, humor me a bit further; Is this to say you feel I would be much better off with the colt? What model Colt would be comparable? (Quad Rail Ready, Flip up front and backs, etc)
Is there anything in particular you dont like about the M&P?
Im seeing the same, $1399 or so. If you dont mind, humor me a bit further; Is this to say you feel I would be much better off with the colt? What model Colt would be comparable? (Quad Rail Ready, Flip up front and backs, etc)
Is there anything in particular you dont like about the M&P?
I own two M&P's and a DDM4. To get a Colt that would be comparable to the MP15T(in features, not build quality, the Colt wins build quality hands down) you would have find a 6940 which has the free float quad rail. If you can find one they are gonna cost quite a bit more than the MP15T.
For 1500 you can get the DDM4 which is a better gun than the MP15T. The DDM4 has free float quad rail, 1-7 twist barrel(MP has 1-9), Magpul stock, auto BCG(MP has semi BCG), slightly better trigger than the MP(everything I can tell they look identical, but the DDM4 feels better), and probably a few other things I am forgetting. I like my DDM4 better than either of my MP's. I tend to loan my MP's to my friends, but I do not loan my DDM4.
Go with the Colt. It will not let you down.
Failure2Stop
06-05-09, 14:42
I'll put it in n00b terms-
Smith and Wesson is the C+ student of the AR world.
Stag cheats off S&W in math class.
Colt is the HS quarterback and most popular kid in school.
LMT and BCM are fraternal twins raised by a former enlisted Marine.
Daniel Defense is on the honor role and spends the day shoving BM, DPMS, and RRA into their lockers.
Noveske is the valedictorian and can bench-press 350 lbs.
:p
Spurholder
06-05-09, 15:09
^ :D
How much total would you be paying for the MP15T? They seem to be going for 1300-1400 around here. For around the same price you can get a Colt or for just a bit more you can get a DDM4.
We sell them for $1200 and have them in stock.
C4
[QUOTE=C4IGrant;383160]We sell them for $1200 and have them in stock.
I linked to your site and used the search feature, no results for M&P15t
Are they not listed online?
[QUOTE=C4IGrant;383160]We sell them for $1200 and have them in stock.
I linked to your site and used the search feature, no results for M&P15t :confused:
They are not up on our site.
You would have to call to order.
C4
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 16:35
Although I have never owned a Colt AR, I have had several of their pistols (Gold Cup National Match .45, 2 Pythons). I have to give them a middle-of-the-road review: they were the best shooting guns I ever had, but also the most high maintenance. I am probably inviting more brand bashing, as it is common here, but I think the Smith would do fine for you. I have two friends who own and thoroughly enjoy them. Around here the average price for them is about 1200 clams, and Colts are 1600 or more. I don't see any justification for the difference, other than personal preference. I would be happy with either, and I think you would have a positive experience no matter which you selected.
My two cents.
Now, let the elitist brand bashing begin. Drumroll, please...OK guys, don't disappoint....wait for it, here it comes:cool:
Although I have never owned a Colt AR, I have had several of their pistols (Gold Cup National Match .45, 2 Pythons). I have to give them a middle-of-the-road review: they were the best shooting guns I ever had, but also the most high maintenance. I am probably inviting more brand bashing, as it is common here, but I think the Smith would do fine for you. I have two friends who own and thoroughly enjoy them. Around here the average price for them is about 1200 clams, and Colts are 1600 or more. I don't see any justification for the difference, other than personal preference. I would be happy with either, and I think you would have a positive experience no matter which you selected.
My two cents.
Now, let the elitist brand bashing begin. Drumroll, please...OK guys, don't disappoint....wait for it, here it comes:cool:
Comparing Colt pistols to their LE AR's is of no value.
As a S&W LE dealer, I can assure you that neither I or S&W believe that their AR's are equal to Colt's.
Can people find enjoyment w/ a S&W AR? They sure can.
C4
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 16:56
Nice. Here we go!
Nice. Here we go!
No bashing at all. As I said, I am a S&W LE Dealer (which means that I should be telling you that S&W is the greatest AR maker in the world).
So if you cannot take a real opinion from someone that knows the S&W AR program inside and out, then continue to live in your own little world.
C4
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 17:10
Ok, so what exactly do you get for the extra 400 dollars? Is it made of adamantium? I really would like to know. Especially since their pistols have been declared "of no importance" in this discussion.
Thrill me.
I don't mean to interrupt, but in reading Grant's comment, I didn't get the feeling that he thought Colt's pistols were of no importance - only that comparing their pistols with their rifles is pointless. The comparison is of no value, not the pistols.
As far as your other point goes, for $400 you get a few more blue boxes on the chart and a pony on the side. Is it worth it? Only you can answer that question.
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 17:21
Thank you. I believe the pistol experience is helpful, because I really enjoyed owning and shooting those guns, but had to have them serviced more that any others I have owned. The rifles are made by the same company, no? That colors my judgment somewhat, but what do I know, I am in my own little world...:rolleyes:
Ok, so what exactly do you get for the extra 400 dollars? Is it made of adamantium? I really would like to know. Especially since their pistols have been declared "of no importance" in this discussion.
Thrill me.
How about known quality and specs to match the TDP? For some people this isn't important, especially those types who only seem to care about how small of a hole they produce in paper with a known manufacturer of unreliable rifles. How about you drop the insolent tone and read the stickied threads before you post another inane response/question. You're going up against some big boys of the industry (not to mention the knowledge base of this forum), so STFU and learn like the rest of the humble souls here.
Ok, so what exactly do you get for the extra 400 dollars? Is it made of adamantium? I really would like to know. Especially since their pistols have been declared "of no importance" in this discussion.
Thrill me.
My job is not to "thrill" you (sorry).
Have you read Rob_S's chart yet?? If not, read that before posting any other questions.
C4
Ok, so what exactly do you get for the extra 400 dollars? Is it made of adamantium? I really would like to know. Especially since their pistols have been declared "of no importance" in this discussion.
Thrill me.
Not of no importance. Of no relevance. Regardless of whether or not the pistols are of the same manufacturer.
It's like comparing a Yukon to a Corvette. Same manufacturer, and both have engines, but they're made to do different things in different ways, and therefore are not comparable.
BTW, Grant, do you sell Tactical Chips-on-Shoulders, and do they come in different sizes? Are they made of bruised feelings and a casual disdain for subject matter expertise? I would really like to know.
Thrill me.
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 17:29
I am not "up against" anyone here. Insane! Take a pill...
As for the pistols...the Python and the Gold Cup ARE the corvettes in Colt's array of products. As I said, they were fun, but alas they are gone.
Not of no importance. Of no relevance. Regardless of whether or not the pistols are of the same manufacturer.
It's like comparing a Yukon to a Corvette. Same manufacturer, and both have engines, but they're made to do different things in different ways, and therefore are not comparable.
BTW, Grant, do you sell Tactical Chips-on-Shoulders, and do they come in different sizes? Are they made of bruised feelings and a casual disdain for subject matter expertise? I would really like to know.
Thrill me.
Why yes I do (and hope that I have thrilled you)! :-)
C4
Thank you. I believe the pistol experience is helpful, because I really enjoyed owning and shooting those guns, but had to have them serviced more that any others I have owned. The rifles are made by the same company, no? That colors my judgment somewhat, but what do I know, I am in my own little world...:rolleyes:
What you are not realizing is that Colt has a TDP to follow for their AR's. They do not have one for their pistols. Understand the difference???
So again, owning a Colt pistol has ZERO to do with their LE AR's.
C4
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 17:38
I buy that. I'll stop posting in this thread if you will; I really don't want to continue a pissing contest.
I think alot of folks here need to tone it down.
I buy that. I'll stop posting in this thread if you will; I really don't want to continue a pissing contest.
I think alot of folks here need to tone it down.
I never stop posting and really do not care if we go back and fourth for days.
You have stumbled onto a serious, professional forum full of HSLD types, LE and Civy's that take training, guns and gear VERY seriously.
The words "as good as" and "good enough" don't work around here. If you are looking for a more "Hobbyist" based forum, try this one: www.ar15.com
C4
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 17:55
OK, I have changed my mind. For a moment I thought that you were OK.
SWATcop556
06-05-09, 17:55
Although I have never owned a Colt AR, I have had several of their pistols (Gold Cup National Match .45, 2 Pythons). I have to give them a middle-of-the-road review: they were the best shooting guns I ever had, but also the most high maintenance. I am probably inviting more brand bashing, as it is common here, but I think the Smith would do fine for you. I have two friends who own and thoroughly enjoy them. Around here the average price for them is about 1200 clams, and Colts are 1600 or more. I don't see any justification for the difference, other than personal preference. I would be happy with either, and I think you would have a positive experience no matter which you selected.
My two cents.
Now, let the elitist brand bashing begin. Drumroll, please...OK guys, don't disappoint....wait for it, here it comes:cool:
For someone who has only been here for a short time and has yet to establish any credibility or credentials you seem to love stirring the pot. What is constructive criticism, you view as "brand-bashing." You ask questions and when someone with (I would bet cash money) more experience with firearms comes along and offers their advice and personal experience, you piss and moan about brand bashing since you purchased said "lower tier" rifle. If their experience or opinion is different than yours, it is an elitist attitude. I never claim to know everything and learn from our Industry Professionals, Subject Matter Experts, and even seasoned shooters and fighters who are regular member every day. I add what I can and if it is not the popular or wisest choice, I either go with what I already know or research why someone else feels differently.
If you coming across as "bitching and complaining" is not your intent then you might need to re-evaluate your approach. If this is your intent then you will not last long here. We try to keep the no bullshit approach here so that this site does not become TOS. If you like (enter selected brand name of rifle here) that's great. You will even be encouraged to post about it. Just don't be offended and point the finger at others when they post a differing opinion.
Sorry for the off-topic post.
SWATcop556
06-05-09, 17:56
OK, I have changed my mind. For a moment I thought that you were OK, but now you're just being an a-hole. Go have a ministroke, dickwad.
:p
And in the short time it took me to type a response you proved my point. I'm impressed.
Failure2Stop
06-05-09, 17:57
OK, I have changed my mind. For a moment I thought that you were OK, but now you're just being an a-hole. Go have a ministroke, dickwad.
:p
buh-bye
I suggest - and this is only a suggestion - that you step back from the computer and take some time to think before continuing to post. This is not a forum populated by 14-year-olds in their parents' basements, and while it may be fun to pretend it is so, it will not lead to a productive stay.
Take the chip off of your shoulder and read. I read a ton of posts here before even registering, starting about 6 months ago, and believe me when I say your attitude will determine the quality of your experience (on m4carbine and in life in general.)
SWATcop556
06-05-09, 18:05
To the OP (in an attempt to get this thread back on track) I would recommend a strong look at the DDM4. It has everything you are looking for and is a high quality rifle for very little increase in the S&W price point. They really put forth a lot of effort and research behind the rifle before it was introduced. I do not own one but intend to add one to the collection ASAP.
I have had quite a bit of trigger time on one (belongs to a team member) with just the included iron sights and have to say that I was very impressed.
That being said, the S&W is not a bad choice and is a serviceable rifle depending on the applications. It would more than likely meet 90% of all shooters requirements.
To the OP (in an attempt to get this thread back on track) I would recommend a strong look at the DDM4. It has everything you are looking for and is a high quality rifle for very little increase in the S&W price point. They really put forth a lot of effort and research behind the rifle before it was introduced. I do not own one but intend to add one to the collection ASAP.
I have had quite a bit of trigger time on one (belongs to a team member) with just the included iron sights and have to say that I was very impressed.
That being said, the S&W is not a bad choice and is a serviceable rifle depending on the applications. It would more than likely meet 90% of all shooters requirements.
Whew! Didnt mean to stir up the hornets nest. I am grateful for any and ALL reasonable feedback. I should clarify; I am a noob in that I dont own an AR, but this is by no means my first rodeo. I feel like the gentlemen, before he was wiped off the face of the earth, was being reasonable. If he sees that his colt pistols were high maintenance and this leaves a bitter taste in his mouth about their rifles, I dont see a problem with that. I thank SWATCOP for bringing this thread back on track. I hear MANY great things about the colt AR. My question is this: for an entry level AR that I can accessorize, have fun on our ranch, hog hunt, home defense, and range use, it seems that the 15t is a viable option. The only reason why I bring it up specifically, is that for its price, it seems to offer some nice upgrades. (Aforementioned quad rail, troy buis, chrome lined free floater, etc) It caught my eye. Seems like alot of rifle for $1200. I am really digging the discussion, and want to hear all sides, lets just chill out. I have lurked here for over a year, but I joined for a reason. Tell me what I need to know about the 15t, gentlemen
Whew! Didnt mean to stir up the hornets nest. I am grateful for any and ALL reasonable feedback. I should clarify; I am a noob in that I dont own an AR, but this is by no means my first rodeo. I feel like the gentlemen, before he was wiped off the face of the earth, was being reasonable. If he sees that his colt pistols were high maintenance and this leaves a bitter taste in his mouth about their rifles, I dont see a problem with that. I thank SWATCOP for bringing this thread back on track. I hear MANY great things about the colt AR. My question is this: for an entry level AR that I can accessorize, have fun on our ranch, hog hunt, home defense, and range use, it seems that the 15t is a viable option. The only reason why I bring it up specifically, is that for its price, it seems to offer some nice upgrades. (Aforementioned quad rail, troy buis, chrome lined free floater, etc) It caught my eye. Seems like alot of rifle for $1200. I am really digging the discussion, and want to hear all sides, lets just chill out. I have lurked here for over a year, but I joined for a reason. Tell me what I need to know about the 15t, gentlemen
If the T catches your eye, then go for it.
C4
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 18:49
Still here!:D
spamsammich
06-05-09, 18:52
How was your vacation Zippygaloo?
Is it your mission in life to just be silly or what? THERE IS NO CORRELATION BETWEEN COLT PISTOLS AND THEIR AR's. You also admit that you have never owned one of their AR's which basically means you have no clue what you are talking about.
I think you should post alot less and read more. For someone who purports to have 30 something years of shooting and "gunsmithing" experience you really seem rather clueless.
Thank you. I believe the pistol experience is helpful, because I really enjoyed owning and shooting those guns, but had to have them serviced more that any others I have owned. The rifles are made by the same company, no? That colors my judgment somewhat, but what do I know, I am in my own little world...:rolleyes:
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 19:44
Irawk"guy", leave it be. They are the same company, after all. (It's just a pony on the side) I do "acknowledge" the "difference" between "pistols" and "rifles", but I am through name calling, and regret that I resorted to it. But you have no reason to "belittle" me, do you?
Call me clueless if you want, but you won't change my opinion or raise anyone else's awareness that way.
I am not really impressed with this forum right now.
McFly,
First off my screen name is IRAQGUNZ. If you want to show your ass by playing spelling games that's on you. YAAFI! I don't know how you reached the conclusion that I am belittling you. You have no clue what you are talking about- that's the bottomline and you have proven it with your moronic posts.
I don't want to change your opinion, because it is pointless. Buy what you want and do what you want. Like my old Doc used to say;
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't suck its' ass to make it drink. Enough said.
Irawk"guy", leave it be. They are the same company, after all. (It's just a pony on the side) I do "acknowledge" the "difference" between "pistols" and "rifles", but I am through name calling, and regret that I resorted to it. But you have no reason to "belittle" me, do you?
Call me clueless if you want, but you won't change my opinion or raise anyone else's awareness that way.
I am not really impressed with this forum right now.
Then do us all a favor and stay in your lane or get lost.
It would better serve you to just let this one hash out quietly and read up a little bit more on things and then make your own opinion of the site and how you want to contribute, but the tirades are getting old to many of us here and do not benefit the community here.
In the end it's your decision, but I think you'll find a great wealth of knowledge and people that really care about these topics and will also go to great lengths to help others out in a civil manner.
i have two smith's, two noveske n-4 light recce's, and two daniel defence, plus another half-dozen,,, so i can compare. i carry a smith around with me in my truck for defensive purposes, have a sabre beside my bed, the bottom line is the smith is a fine carbine for someone that doesn;t shoot 20,000 rds. a year through it. if i had to take one and run for it,,, i'd take a noveske,,,, wouldn't get paranoid if i had a smith. i personally think smith makes a fine ar,,,,especially for the money. let's get down to the nut-cutting, my first m4 was a smith, after several A2's,,,reasoning was rifle, ammo, and mags for the same price as a colt. THEN i decided i had TO HAVE something better, so i ordered a noveske [my first]. guess what???? the smith shoots as good as the noveske, 75 gr hornandy and all, never a bobble. admittably i've never been to any "classes" [not too many in the ms. woods] but have shot so many high-power matches i consider myself a decent "country" shot.. can keep the flies off someone's ass, if need be. buy what you like,, a smith is not a colt,,,costs 400-500$ less,,though.---- here comes a shit-storm--i like the smith better that the daniel defence, myself....to each their own.
:eek:
3 pages and only 4 posts about the topic I presented. McFly, since you are the center of attention, will you kindly ask about the M&P 15t? ;)
Just kidding gentlemen. This is rather entertaintaining
We sell them for $1200 and have them in stock.
C4
That is a VERY good price.
I had the MP15T and like an idiot sold it. It shot Wolf 55gr & 75gr under 1.5" @ 100yds ( Millet DMS in an ADM ReconX mount ). Also function was 100% even with Wolf.
SWATcop556
06-05-09, 20:11
If the T catches your eye, then go for it.
C4
Agreed. If the T is what you are looking for and it fits your needs then get after it. From what you described for your intended uses, it should serve you well.
IMHO if you saved or applied just a little more money, you would be able to pick up a DDM4. It may not be your thing and you may not want to throw down the extra coin, but I do believe that its more bang for your buck (pun intended). :cool:
Let us know which one you decide on and we'll expect a range report. Also photos will be necessary or it didn't happen! :D
HelloMcFly
06-05-09, 20:12
got that right...I brought one big storm down earlier in this thread, and people are still jumping up and down over it. It's awesome being here.
BTW...I don't like being the center of attention here, but somebody has to get these yahoos off their high horses. Seems like they are a little sensitive.
The 15T in my closet actually belongs to my nephew (long story, he is 26 and doesn't want to have to explain it to his folks, so it lives here)...I think it's pretty much the cat's @$$. Ok, go ahead and bash me some more.
i have two smith's, two noveske n-4 light recce's, and two daniel defence, plus another half-dozen,,, so i can compare. i carry a smith around with me in my truck for defensive purposes, have a sabre beside my bed, the bottom line is the smith is a fine carbine for someone that doesn;t shoot 20,000 rds. a year through it. if i had to take one and run for it,,, i'd take a noveske,,,, wouldn't get paranoid if i had a smith. i personally think smith makes a fine ar,,,,especially for the money. let's get down to the nut-cutting, my first m4 was a smith, after several A2's,,,reasoning was rifle, ammo, and mags for the same price as a colt. THEN i decided i had TO HAVE something better, so i ordered a noveske [my first]. guess what???? the smith shoots as good as the noveske, 75 gr hornandy and all, never a bobble. admittably i've never been to any "classes" [not too many in the ms. woods] but have shot so many high-power matches i consider myself a decent "country" shot.. can keep the flies off someone's ass, if need be. buy what you like,, a smith is not a colt,,,costs 400-500$ less,,though.---- here comes a shit-storm--i like the smith better that the daniel defence, myself....to each their own.
Bullseye, Many thanks. Now were cookin'.
Thanks for all the help, gentlemen. As I said, ive been lurking here for about a year. Lotsa great things to be learned here, and I have enjoyed it. I think I am ready to join the ranks. I look forward to many great days amongst you all. This thread is by no means closed though, please continue to sound off.
nogoodnamesleft
06-05-09, 20:58
YAAFI!
Yet Another Application Framwork Implementation! Really?
I have the M&P15x model of the Smith and have only put a little over 500 rounds through it so far and it has been flawless. The rifle shoots and handles great and I considered it an entry level weapon when I bought it. But as always once you get bit by the BRD you will want to upgrade and the Tier One rifles are Colt, Noveske, LMT, and LWRC with the DD M4 close behind.
There are many quality rifles to be had at many different price points but with the recent drop in prices to a more sane level why not pay just a little extra and get a rifle that will hold its value and has been proven in action by people who use these weapons as tools and see what breaks and which brands stand the test of time and use. just my $.015 (being so new to the BRD I can't honestly give you a full $.02). :D
I have the M&P15x model of the Smith and have only put a little over 500 rounds through it so far and it has been flawless. The rifle shoots and handles great and I considered it an entry level weapon when I bought it. But as always once you get bit by the BRD you will want to upgrade and the Tier One rifles are Colt, Noveske, LMT, and LWRC with the DD M4 close behind.
There are many quality rifles to be had at many different price points but with the recent drop in prices to a more sane level why not pay just a little extra and get a rifle that will hold its value and has been proven in action by people who use these weapons as tools and see what breaks and which brands stand the test of time and use. just my $.015 (being so new to the BRD I can't honestly give you a full $.02). :D
Agreed. My first ar was a Stag Model 1, which I still have and has also been flawless. Definitely a nice rifle, and I like it alot. But after finding this site, and learning alot from the fine crew here at m4carbine.net, I too have come down with the BRD. So now I also own a 6920. Read the stickies, and learn as much as you can, then make a descision. While I don't really regret buying the Stag, afterwards I found myself longing for a tier 1 carbine.(guess that makes me an elitist:rolleyes:) That said, the S&W is also a very nice rifle, and I'm sure will serve you just fine. If that's the rifle you want, and you don't think you'll suffer from any buyers remorse, go for it. Either way, I'm sure you'll end up having some fun. Good luck!:)
I own a M&P15 and havent had a problem with it yet so i dont see how colt could be better as long as the gun goes bang everytime what more do you need no matter if it is a colt smith bushmaster cc stag and so on. If your rifle is dependable and reliable thats all i need.
got that right...I brought one big storm down earlier in this thread, and people are still jumping up and down over it. It's awesome being here.
BTW...I don't like being the center of attention here, but somebody has to get these yahoos off their high horses. Seems like they are a little sensitive.
The 15T in my closet actually belongs to my nephew (long story, he is 26 and doesn't want to have to explain it to his folks, so it lives here)...I think it's pretty much the cat's @$$. Ok, go ahead and bash me some more.
Seems like you may not understand the purpose of this forum.
The purpose of M4Carbine.net is to provide a forum to share professional and technical information to the shooting community. The forum is open to military, law enforcement, and recreational shooters.
I don't find stirring the pot for one's own amusement anywhere in the mission statement.
Have you considered TOS?
I have no doubt that all of what you gentlemen are saying is true. But could you elaborate? What about the Colt, LMT, DD, etc is head and shoulders above the others? Maybe a combination of things. Cost is a concern, but not a deal breaker. But with a 15t at 1200 and a Colt at 1600, where is the gap coming from. The fit and finish, tightness, reliability, resale, what?
At this stage in the game, Im not taking myself too serious. I hope Im not sounding like Im stuck on the 15t, I just want to cover all bases, just as Im sure each and everyone of you did during your education. Some rifles, like the colt, to my untrained eye seem to have less features, and cost much more.
I have no doubt that all of what you gentlemen are saying is true. But could you elaborate? What about the Colt, LMT, DD, etc is head and shoulders above the others? Maybe a combination of things. Cost is a concern, but not a deal breaker. But with a 15t at 1200 and a Colt at 1600, where is the gap coming from. The fit and finish, tightness, reliability, resale, what?
At this stage in the game, Im not taking myself too serious. I hope Im not sounding like Im stuck on the 15t, I just want to cover all bases, just as Im sure each and everyone of you did during your education. Some rifles, like the colt, to my untrained eye seem to have less features, and cost much more.
Colt and the other Tier One manufacturers use higher quality parts and build to a more exact standard with emphasis on QC. Better steel in barrels, finer machining of parts, better BCG (proper staking), and MP testing of critical parts are just some of the things that seperate them from others. $1200 for a S&W or a little over $1300 for a Colt 6920, not a tough choice. And if you want more bells and whistles the new Colt 6940 ($1625) will fill that bill. IMO
Just make sure the Colt has the new .154 pins and not the older .170 pins for better compatibility for trigger replacements and upgrades.
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/semi4sale.cgi?read=215887
I just got my MP15FT Last week... My first AR that I own, although I have been issued the M16A2, A3, and M4 during my time with the U.S. Army...
I'm no expert on AR's, but I put 40 rounds through it shooting at distances from 7-50 yards, single shots and strings of fire, ALL were flawless...
I only had a half hour, so I did not even sight in the TROY BUIS. All my shots made it onto a 6" paper pie plate...
The 6" Paper Pie Plate is my combat appropriate standard.
While I may never sling thousands of rounds down range except maybe when I take a carbine course, I see no real issue with being able to trust this AR as a casual shooter or SHTF gun...
I'm already planning my next AR...lol Not a S&W, a self build... :D
I can't comment on the cost factor though, since it cost me significantly less then any public price posted/advertised through a special offer.
OK Let's try a rookies take at this.
I looked long and hard at the M&P15T Nice rifle on the surface, and I came close to getting one.
I ended up with a DDM4 instead.
Model: M&P15
Caliber: 5.56 mm NATO / .223
Fine assuming it's really chambered for 5.56, not all rifles marked as such are. The DDM4 is chambered properly for sure.
Action: Gas Operated Semi Automatic
Capacity: 30 Rounds, 5.56 mm or .223
Overall Length: 35" Extended / 32" Compacted
Stock: 6-Position Telescopic
Cheap stock, rattles doesn't lock down tight, probably commercial tube, probably has a carbine buffer vs the DDM4's H buffer. The DDM4 probably provides at least $50 more value in this area
Forend: Troy 4-Sided, 10" Free-Float Modular Rail Forend (MRF)
Decent free float fore end Upper midrange part vs the DD's high end part. difference in value say 50 bux or so more for the DD part.
Sight Length: 15"
Barrel Length: 16"
Barrel Twist: 1 in 9"
not the optimal twist rate would add cost to swap barrel
Weight (No Mag): 6.85 lbs.
Pretty light, nice
Trigger Pull: 7 lbs. (approx.)
not the best trigger out of the box but not horrible by any means
Upper/Lower Material: 7075 T6 Aluminum
good parts
Barrel Material: 4140 Steel
lower grade steel barrel 2 to 3 steps down from what you would find in the DD again value here, I'd estimate abut 100 difference in parts cost compared to the DD.
Chromed Components: Barrel Bore, Gas Key, Bolt Carrier
Proper specs but I don't know if they are up to the same standard as the DD. Bolt carrier is lower quality but decent any good dealer would make sure the gas key is properly staked, I'd recommend Grant.
Receiver and Barrel Finish: Hard Coat Black Anodized
Front Sight: Troy Adjustable, Folding Battle Sight
Good solid parts here if you want flip sights on the DD you would have to buy them or trade up, I'd estimate +60 for S&W on the front sight.
Rear Sight: Troy Adjustable, Folding Battle Sight
Good solid parts here if you want flip sights on the DD you would have to buy them or trade up, I'd estimate +60 for S&W on the rear sight.
So the DD comes with higher quality barrel but a pretty noticible margin.
DD's rail is higher quality but the S&W one is pretty good.
Better stock (Magpul MOE) and buffer on the DD.
Better sights if you want flip sights on the S&W.
The DD's bolt and bolt carrier group are higher quality and are known good to go.
The DD's trigger is better and the lower parts are probably higher quality, There are a few other little touches on the DD that are nicer like the radiused trigger guard, endplate with quick detach sling mount, enhanced magwell.
The Colt 6920 will be much plainer, basic plastic handguards, etc but will have top shelf components and no questionable parts, I'm not sure how nice the stock is but everything else on it is solid and good to go for a long time.
HTH
If I mentioned things here that you don't understand you may want to dig into the forum so that you do and then you can make up your mind where the value lies. It's worth the time and effort to understand so that you can place your own value on the features rather than taking someone else's opinion and hoping they steered you right.
Here are the DD specs
Lower Receiver: Mil-Spec with Enhanced Flared Magazine Well
Upper Receiver: Mil-Spec with Indexing Marks and M4 Feed Ramps
Barrel: 16″ Ordanance Grade 4150 MP Tested, Chrome Lined, 1:7 Twist, M4 Profile
Chamber: 5.56 NATO
Flash Hider: A2 Birdcage Flash Hider
Bolt Carrier Group: Mil-Spec MP Tested, Properly Staked Gas Key
Sights: Daniel Defense A1.5 Fixed Rear Sight; Pinned “F” Marked Front Sight Base
Rail System: Daniel Defense Omega X 12.0 FSP
Buttstock: MAGPUL MOE Buttstock & Mil-Spec 5 Position Receiver Extension
Magazine: MAGPUL 30 round PMag in Black
Vertical Grip: Daniel Defense A2 Styling Vertical Grip
PRGGodfather
06-05-09, 23:39
To answer your question -- you may consider checking the sticky in the Technical Discussion Forum. It may help you understand what reliability features are most important from a technical perspective.
At the end of the day, one should to try to understand the principles that drive the preferences. The "good enough" concept and its attendant preferences are not held in high regard at the community that is M4C. That's just the way it is. Just like how the TV comes with an ON/OFF switch.
Yes, we all understand, for the most part, any rifle is better than NO rifle.
Yet, when it comes to interpreting the answers to the question at hand -- many have repeatedly stated it is all about the TDP.
By that, it is about the high regard many have for the amount of effort only a select few manufacturers put into CRAFTING the rifle when building it BEFORE it is sold: Complying with torque specs, materials specs, dimensions, measurements, staking and other important reliability and performance driven details -- as opposed to merely slapping parts together. Few people are detail-oriented -- and many more are not.
As some have mentioned, the TDP is actually considered the minimum standard for military use. Those with a lesser use likely do not appreciate the TDP as much -- and unfortunately, M4C, as a community, is comprised largely of those who DO.
After all, at M4C, as well as other arenas: The devil is in the details.
And yes, sometimes, beggars cannot be choosers. For some of us, we are limited by availability and budget. For many, going "BANG" is good enough.
That's a distinct difference in principles.
Spending my own money for a completed rifle: It's all about Colt, LMT and Noveske first, with the DDM4 next -- based on the technical considerations as noted on the chart from Rob S. That's the "Buy once and cry once" principle.
Still, I DO have colleagues who, needing a rifle when the wait for Colt 6920's was over a year (the last time I checked, even Noveske uppers were "vaporware" in most places) -- felt the imminent need to purchase M&P15A4's, 15T's, RRA's and Bushies. Some were purchased by their agencies, and some individually.
That was the "I need it NOW" principle.
Some of us trashed talked their purchases, to be sure. Cops are pretty ruthless when it comes to talking smack.
Yet instead, some of us chose to assist as much as we could by restaking all the carrier keys with Ned's awesome MOACKS; replacing the blue extractor buffers with black ones; installing Crane o-rings on the mushy extractor springs; and staking the castle nuts in two places. That was our best attempt at making lemonade on rifles that are offered as hard use -- but in reality, had not been crafted with same attention to detail.
Should we have to do those things? I cannot speak for everyone, but I imagine many of us here believe such reliability details should be done at the factory before they are sold to anyone and touted as reliable.
IMHO, this is what the "good enough" controversy is all about.
M4C positions itself as a place where one can find first-rate, first-hand, top-tier technical information from people who study this subject seriously and passionately.
Good luck. It's your money, your choice, your rifle and your life.
flyboy1788
06-05-09, 23:43
Colt and the other Tier One manufacturers use higher quality parts and build to a more exact standard with emphasis on QC. Better steel in barrels, finer machining of parts, better BCG (proper staking), and MP testing of critical parts are just some of the things that seperate them from others. $1200 for a S&W or a little over $1300 for a Colt 6920, not a tough choice. And if you want more bells and whistles the new Colt 6940 ($1625) will fill that bill. IMO
Just make sure the Colt has the new .154 pins and not the older .170 pins for better compatibility for trigger replacements and upgrades.
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/semi4sale.cgi?read=215887
Perhaps do a little more research... The smiths come with mp inspected bolts. And "finer machining of parts"?? can you specify please? The smiths BCG is staked "properly" at least the ones ive seen are comparable to colt staking(for a while they were even using LMT bcgs), and according to rob_s's chart, it is considered properly staked. So, basically it is the barrel that is "better" because it is tested, which I cannot argue. Also, the T model comes with a troy rear sight and a nice rail and a troy front sight. The colt does not come with the troy rear sight, does not come with the rail, nor does it come with the troy front sight. It does however come with an mp tested barrel, and a better buffer(h buffer) which the smith does not .
It is hard not to take the T model seriously especially at the 1200 dollar price. an H2 buffer can be put into the smith for around 40 dollars, and now you have a rifle where the only "significant" difference would be an mp tested barrel. keep in mind all of this is still under 1300. Now take the colt, add a troy front sight, troy rear sight, and troy rail and now you are WELL past the 1800 dollar mark. So now this little comparison between the M&P 15T and the 6920 are not quite fair. You get much more for your money in this instance, and can easily upgrade the parts that are less desireable (the buffer, maybe even throw a nice geissele SSA in there) and have a rifle that can be taken seriously for a price that is still comparable to the stock 6920.
Now if we were comparing a smith and wesson m&p15 standard model at 1000 dollars and a 6920 at 1300, I might be more inclined to tell you to get the colt. But I am truly surprised at the amount of people who do not find 1200 very enticing. IF one is going to spend more than 1200 and go to 1300 for a BONE stock rifle, why not just spend a little bit more and check out the DDM4 like some others mentioned. Im sorry, i personally could not justify spending 100 more on a rifle to get a better barrel, and then have live with the fact that it would cost me around 500 more dollars to get the accessories that are already found on the T model. That brings the price to around 1800 dollars. Shit for that price, look at an LMT MRP. I dont mean to start a flame fest, Im not bashing colt(god forbid:D), I am just putting in my .02
Perhaps do a little more research... The smiths come with mp inspected bolts. And "finer machining of parts"?? can you specify please? The smiths BCG is staked "properly" at least the ones ive seen are comparable to colt staking(for a while they were even using LMT bcgs), and according to rob_s's chart, it is considered properly staked. So, basically it is the barrel that is "better" because it is tested, which I cannot argue. Also, the T model comes with a troy rear sight and a nice rail and a troy front sight. The colt does not come with the troy rear sight, does not come with the rail, nor does it come with the troy front sight. It does however come with an mp tested barrel, and a better buffer(h buffer) which the smith does not .
It is hard not to take the T model seriously especially at the 1200 dollar price. an H2 buffer can be put into the smith for around 40 dollars, and now you have a rifle where the only "significant" difference would be an mp tested barrel. keep in mind all of this is still under 1300. Now take the colt, add a troy front sight, troy rear sight, and troy rail and now you are WELL past the 1800 dollar mark. So now this little comparison between the M&P 15T and the 6920 are not quite fair. You get much more for your money in this instance, and can easily upgrade the parts that are less desireable (the buffer, maybe even throw a nice geissele SSA in there) and have a rifle that can be taken seriously for a price that is still comparable to the stock 6920.
Now if we were comparing a smith and wesson m&p15 standard model at 1000 dollars and a 6920 at 1300, I might be more inclined to tell you to get the colt. But I am truly surprised at the amount of people who do not find 1200 very enticing. IF one is going to spend more than 1200 and go to 1300 for a BONE stock rifle, why not just spend a little bit more and check out the DDM4 like some others mentioned. Im sorry, i personally could not justify spending 100 more on a rifle to get a better barrel, and then have live with the fact that it would cost me around 500 more dollars to get the accessories that are already found on the T model. That brings the price to around 1800 dollars. Shit for that price, look at an LMT MRP. I dont mean to start a flame fest, Im not bashing colt(god forbid:D), I am just putting in my .02
The smith I looked at about a month ago had a blue extractor buffer, marginal staking similar to my RRA (an easy fix), a semi auto BCG and a 4140 steel barrel. I believe the buffer tube was commercial and the stock was the basic cheapy but did have the S&W Logo.
I think anytime you go below the standard set by Colt or Noveske (assuming it's a factory gun and not assembled by a shaky dealer) you are looking at compromises and it makes sense to understand what those are so you avoid that aw shit moment later. I also believe it makes sense to but from a good dealer that will work with you before the sale and who will stand behind you after.
Good luck in your selection.
Truthfully guys, I am blown away. This forum is on a whole different level. My sincerest thanks.
flyboy1788
06-06-09, 00:13
The smith I looked at about a month ago had a blue extractor buffer, marginal staking similar to my RRA (an easy fix), a semi auto BCG and a 4140 steel barrel. I believe the buffer tube was commercial and the stock was the basic cheapy but did have the S&W Logo.
I think anytime you go below the standard set by Colt or Noveske (assuming it's a factory gun and not assembled by a shaky dealer) you are looking at compromises and it makes sense to understand what those are so you avoid that aw shit moment later. I also believe it makes sense to but from a good dealer that will work with you before the sale and who will stand behind you after.
Good luck in your selection.
That is the first I have heard of smith using blue extractor insert.(mine has the black one) Also, the staking on the post stag ones seemed excellent, and my buffer tube is mil-spec(I have a mil-spec ctr on there) It would be unfortunate if smith is in fact dropping the ball by doing what you said they were (I don't doubt you are being honest), but it seemed mine was good to go as were many others. I had the LMT bcg in mine, but I still even went so far as to put a bcm bolt in there and use the LMT as my back up. I put a geissele ssa in there and might put an h2 buffer in there as my last modification. That isnt a whole lot. The 1/9 twist I dont mind, in fact I opted for it. Anyways, I am getting off topic, but it sucks if all smiths are coming with the crappy stake jobs as well as blue extractor inserts, etc, etc, and I stand corrected about them currently being "respectable" if what you say is true and consistent with all new smiths. Oh well, mine is set up nice with enough desirable features to make it a serious HD/SHTF/range gun. I guess I am glad for websites like these to keep me updated because as Pat rogers once said, the parts that a company uses on wednesday might not be the ones they use on thursday of friday(it went something like that anyways). That seems to be the case here. :(
Uh, no.
Yet Another Application Framwork Implementation! Really?
Pretty good argument. Just a few things.
1. Why would you want a Troy front sight when the 6920 has a fixed FSB?
2. Do you know for a fact that S&W HP/ MPI tests the barrels and bolts on all weapons or is it done in batches?
3. 1/9 twist is still 1/9 twist. Though some of them may shoot the 75/77gr. bullets well across the board that isn't the case.
I could care less if you bash Colt as I don't own one. But, they do build the weapon right from the start. Here is the most important part of the whole equation. CONSISTENCY
Perhaps do a little more research... The smiths come with mp inspected bolts. And "finer machining of parts"?? can you specify please? The smiths BCG is staked "properly" at least the ones ive seen are comparable to colt staking(for a while they were even using LMT bcgs), and according to rob_s's chart, it is considered properly staked. So, basically it is the barrel that is "better" because it is tested, which I cannot argue. Also, the T model comes with a troy rear sight and a nice rail and a troy front sight. The colt does not come with the troy rear sight, does not come with the rail, nor does it come with the troy front sight. It does however come with an mp tested barrel, and a better buffer(h buffer) which the smith does not .
It is hard not to take the T model seriously especially at the 1200 dollar price. an H2 buffer can be put into the smith for around 40 dollars, and now you have a rifle where the only "significant" difference would be an mp tested barrel. keep in mind all of this is still under 1300. Now take the colt, add a troy front sight, troy rear sight, and troy rail and now you are WELL past the 1800 dollar mark. So now this little comparison between the M&P 15T and the 6920 are not quite fair. You get much more for your money in this instance, and can easily upgrade the parts that are less desireable (the buffer, maybe even throw a nice geissele SSA in there) and have a rifle that can be taken seriously for a price that is still comparable to the stock 6920.
Now if we were comparing a smith and wesson m&p15 standard model at 1000 dollars and a 6920 at 1300, I might be more inclined to tell you to get the colt. But I am truly surprised at the amount of people who do not find 1200 very enticing. IF one is going to spend more than 1200 and go to 1300 for a BONE stock rifle, why not just spend a little bit more and check out the DDM4 like some others mentioned. Im sorry, i personally could not justify spending 100 more on a rifle to get a better barrel, and then have live with the fact that it would cost me around 500 more dollars to get the accessories that are already found on the T model. That brings the price to around 1800 dollars. Shit for that price, look at an LMT MRP. I dont mean to start a flame fest, Im not bashing colt(god forbid:D), I am just putting in my .02
That is the first I have heard of smith using blue extractor insert.(mine has the black one) Also, the staking on the post stag ones seemed excellent, and my buffer tube is mil-spec(I have a mil-spec ctr on there) It would be unfortunate if smith is in fact dropping the ball by doing what you said they were (I don't doubt you are being honest), but it seemed mine was good to go as were many others. I had the LMT bcg in mine, but I still even went so far as to put a bcm bolt in there and use the LMT as my back up. I put a geissele ssa in there and might put an h2 buffer in there as my last modification. That isnt a whole lot. The 1/9 twist I dont mind, in fact I opted for it. Anyways, I am getting off topic, but it sucks if all smiths are coming with the crappy stake jobs as well as blue extractor inserts, etc, etc, and I stand corrected about them currently being "respectable" if what you say is true and consistent with all new smiths. Oh well, mine is set up nice with enough desirable features to make it a serious HD/SHTF/range gun. I guess I am glad for websites like these to keep me updated because as Pat rogers once said, the parts that a company uses on wednesday might not be the ones they use on thursday of friday(it went something like that anyways). That seems to be the case here. :(
I'm not sure what the vintage of the one I looked at was. That dealer (local) really holds out for top dollar.
I'm certain that someone buying one from the quality dealers that frequent this board would be able to either find out if there were any "short comings" and that if they were they would be squared away before the delivery the of the rifle.
The smith is mil spec i own one. And a great rifle. I wouldnt never trade it for a colt.
The smith is mil spec i own one. And a great rifle. I wouldnt never trade it for a colt.
Nothing wrong with S&W15 at all, but I would trade a similarly configured S&W evenup for a Colt in a heartbeat based on resale alone.
BTW the S&W is not fully milspec - the barrel steel and twist are not, and maybe a few other things. But the buffer tube is. Maybe that is what the previous poster was trying to say?
Edited to add: To the original poster - if the rifle will be used for mainly for light range use and to sit in a closet, get the 15T from Grant for $1,200 and save yourself some $. It it well equiped and it works or Grant wouldn't sell it. Plus he will make sure everything is right with it before it leaves his store.
Perhaps do a little more research... The smiths come with mp inspected bolts. And "finer machining of parts"?? can you specify please? The smiths BCG is staked "properly" at least the ones ive seen are comparable to colt staking(for a while they were even using LMT bcgs), and according to rob_s's chart, it is considered properly staked. So, basically it is the barrel that is "better" because it is tested, which I cannot argue. Also, the T model comes with a troy rear sight and a nice rail and a troy front sight. The colt does not come with the troy rear sight, does not come with the rail, nor does it come with the troy front sight. It does however come with an mp tested barrel, and a better buffer(h buffer) which the smith does not .
It is hard not to take the T model seriously especially at the 1200 dollar price. an H2 buffer can be put into the smith for around 40 dollars, and now you have a rifle where the only "significant" difference would be an mp tested barrel. keep in mind all of this is still under 1300. Now take the colt, add a troy front sight, troy rear sight, and troy rail and now you are WELL past the 1800 dollar mark. So now this little comparison between the M&P 15T and the 6920 are not quite fair. You get much more for your money in this instance, and can easily upgrade the parts that are less desireable (the buffer, maybe even throw a nice geissele SSA in there) and have a rifle that can be taken seriously for a price that is still comparable to the stock 6920.
Now if we were comparing a smith and wesson m&p15 standard model at 1000 dollars and a 6920 at 1300, I might be more inclined to tell you to get the colt. But I am truly surprised at the amount of people who do not find 1200 very enticing. IF one is going to spend more than 1200 and go to 1300 for a BONE stock rifle, why not just spend a little bit more and check out the DDM4 like some others mentioned. Im sorry, i personally could not justify spending 100 more on a rifle to get a better barrel, and then have live with the fact that it would cost me around 500 more dollars to get the accessories that are already found on the T model. That brings the price to around 1800 dollars. Shit for that price, look at an LMT MRP. I dont mean to start a flame fest, Im not bashing colt(god forbid:D), I am just putting in my .02
I know that MY M&P15X has a MP test bolt, but not barrel. My BCG had to be sent to gotm4 for a proper staking, ask him, hell I posted pictures of it. I was talking about Tier2 and lower rifles also in my comparisons not just Smith.
The OP also talked about a rifle that he could put accessories on as he chose to, please re-read his original post. We all make choices in life, some good, some bad and from my experience buyer's remorse is like a disease eating at you until you take care of it. Not saying he WILL have buyer's remorse but when a Colt or LMT can be had for a few hundred dollars more and then you can add the furniture that best suits your needs, why not? YMMV
Failure2Stop
06-06-09, 08:58
Excellent post by PRG Godfather.
The S&W M&P 15T is a caipable, decent carbine. I don't think that anyone is arguing that, and if they are, they are wrong. One aspect where the 15T falls down hard is the 1/9 barrel. The 5.56/.223 ammunition that is the most effective and precise is not compatable with the barrel. Accepting a 1/9 barrel limits you to lower weight bullets that are more oriented toward plinking or varminting. While there are a few rounds that are ok performers that are 1/9 compatable, they are not in the same league as the 75 to 77 gr high-performance projectiles.
The rifle should be bought with a purpose in mind. What do you want this gun to do? If the honest answer is "blast dirt clods and play at the range" (which is a fully acceptable answer), then the 15T will exceed you wildest dreams. If the answer is "shove it in the closet and wait for TEOTWAWKI", it will fully live up to your expectations.
If you want to get it out and warm it up in a high volume training course it will probably do allright. Pat Rogers took a few and shot the piss out of them for many thoudsands of rounds each (and is contimuing to do so IIRC) and documented it in SWAT mag. From what I remember, they did (and are doing) ok, better than would have been expected from BM, DPMS, Armalite, etc.
If you want to put legs on the gun and reach out to mid/long range with precision you would really benefit from being able to use the heavier projectiles.
If you want to ensure terminal performance, you would really benefit from being able to use heavier projectiles.
The problem is that my application may not be yours, so I am giving advice based on my success criteria. I own guns to direct high velocity bits of metal with great speed and precision as efficiently as I can in defense of my nation, my team-mates, my loved ones, and my self. A whole lot of other people own guns "'cuz dey look perdy".
Why do you need a rail system? You can easily mount lights without a rail system, and a vertical grip is an unnecessary addition until you understand how to really run the gun first, and most people that know how to run the gun and do not need a VGF for consistent hand placement tend not to use them.
Now, I said all that so I can say this-
I could take that 1,400 bucks and roll it into a better gun for similar cake.
The problem is that you are going to have to watch the relevant sites like a hawk though since people are buying them up like Girl Scout Cookies in a Weight Watcher's meeting.
LMT lower receiver with collapsing buttstock (M4 style) and standard trigger- $405. With shipping and transfer fees, let's call it $440 (high est).
BCM 16" Mid-length upper- $475
9" DD Omega rail- $275
Charging handle- $23
BCM Auto Bolt Carrier Group- $160
Troy Rear BUIS- $140
Shipping from Bravo Co. (approx) for Upper, CH, BCG, and BUIS- $20
Total, shipped- $1517, and I can tell you exactly what you are getting over the S&W.
-A marginally better buttstock (LMT M4)
-A higher quality LPK
-An Ergo Grip (I don't really like them, but they are better than the A2 grip).
-A better rail
-Better barrel
-Heavy-weight compatable twist rate
-Smoother functioning (mid-length operating system)
-The industry's top "combat" BCG
Now don't forget magazines, slings, sling swivels, rail covers, lights, optics, ammo, cleaning kit and lube. Expect to pay another few hundred bucks on all that crap in sufficient quantity to be useful.
The smith is mil spec i own one. And a great rifle. I wouldnt never trade it for a colt.
The S&W AR does NOT follow the TDP (exactly) so would not be classified as "Mil-Spec".
C4
flyboy1788
06-06-09, 11:15
Pretty good argument. Just a few things.
1. Why would you want a Troy front sight when the 6920 has a fixed FSB?
2. Do you know for a fact that S&W HP/ MPI tests the barrels and bolts on all weapons or is it done in batches?
3. 1/9 twist is still 1/9 twist. Though some of them may shoot the 75/77gr. bullets well across the board that isn't the case.
I could care less if you bash Colt as I don't own one. But, they do build the weapon right from the start. Here is the most important part of the whole equation. CONSISTENCY
AFAIK they test the barrels in batches, but I do believe the bolts are tested individually. No I do not know this for a fact, but this seems to be the case going by what I have seen and read.
Excellent post by PRG Godfather.
The S&W M&P 15T is a caipable, decent carbine. I don't think that anyone is arguing that, and if they are, they are wrong. One aspect where the 15T falls down hard is the 1/9 barrel. The 5.56/.223 ammunition that is the most effective and precise is not compatable with the barrel. Accepting a 1/9 barrel limits you to lower weight bullets that are more oriented toward plinking or varminting. While there are a few rounds that are ok performers that are 1/9 compatable, they are not in the same league as the 75 to 77 gr high-performance projectiles.
The rifle should be bought with a purpose in mind. What do you want this gun to do? If the honest answer is "blast dirt clods and play at the range" (which is a fully acceptable answer), then the 15T will exceed you wildest dreams. If the answer is "shove it in the closet and wait for TEOTWAWKI", it will fully live up to your expectations.
If you want to get it out and warm it up in a high volume training course it will probably do allright. Pat Rogers took a few and shot the piss out of them for many thoudsands of rounds each (and is contimuing to do so IIRC) and documented it in SWAT mag. From what I remember, they did (and are doing) ok, better than would have been expected from BM, DPMS, Armalite, etc.
If you want to put legs on the gun and reach out to mid/long range with precision you would really benefit from being able to use the heavier projectiles.
If you want to ensure terminal performance, you would really benefit from being able to use heavier projectiles.
The problem is that my application may not be yours, so I am giving advice based on my success criteria. I own guns to direct high velocity bits of metal with great speed and precision as efficiently as I can in defense of my nation, my team-mates, my loved ones, and my self. A whole lot of other people own guns "'cuz dey look perdy".
Why do you need a rail system? You can easily mount lights without a rail system, and a vertical grip is an unnecessary addition until you understand how to really run the gun first, and most people that know how to run the gun and do not need a VGF for consistent hand placement tend not to use them.
Now, I said all that so I can say this-
I could take that 1,400 bucks and roll it into a better gun for similar cake.
The problem is that you are going to have to watch the relevant sites like a hawk though since people are buying them up like Girl Scout Cookies in a Weight Watcher's meeting.
LMT lower receiver with collapsing buttstock (M4 style) and standard trigger- $405. With shipping and transfer fees, let's call it $440 (high est).
BCM 16" Mid-length upper- $475
9" DD Omega rail- $275
Charging handle- $23
BCM Auto Bolt Carrier Group- $160
Troy Rear BUIS- $140
Shipping from Bravo Co. (approx) for Upper, CH, BCG, and BUIS- $20
Total, shipped- $1517, and I can tell you exactly what you are getting over the S&W.
-A marginally better buttstock (LMT M4)
-A higher quality LPK
-An Ergo Grip (I don't really like them, but they are better than the A2 grip).
-A better rail
-Better barrel
-Heavy-weight compatable twist rate
-Smoother functioning (mid-length operating system)
-The industry's top "combat" BCG
Now don't forget magazines, slings, sling swivels, rail covers, lights, optics, ammo, cleaning kit and lube. Expect to pay another few hundred bucks on all that crap in sufficient quantity to be useful.
Failure2stop, For the Win!!!!!!!!
Bump for the weekend crowd
spamsammich
06-07-09, 01:46
Doesn't it seem like your question has been answered already? There's a lot of good info.
What about the Colt, LMT, DD, etc is head and shoulders above the others?
Ibassham, have you read the Chart that Rob S made,it should be stickied in the AR Technical forum. The Colt has a history, and is a military specification weapon, they MPI bolts, MPI Barrels, quality barrel steel, they are properly assembled consistantly with staked castle nuts and gas keys. I could go on just read the chart. If I read it correct S&W is in the top 4 but colt is in the top 2. So it depends on you, I am getting one of each S&W VTAC which comes with a 1:7 twist barrel and other high end goodies, and Colt 6920. I am getting each for different reasons/ But you cant go wrong both are quality firearms, Colt is just a bit better overall IMHO. BTW the link to the chart is below.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642
Doesn't it seem like your question has been answered already? There's a lot of good info.
LOL, yes LOTS of good info, and Im thankful. But just making sure everyone gets a chance to say their peace. :D
rubberneck
06-07-09, 12:08
The smith is mil spec i own one. And a great rifle. I wouldnt never trade it for a colt.
At the risk of sounding like an a-hole but didn't you join this forum several months ago asking for advice because you were new to the AR?
Rubberneck,
Well since I have been called an "elitist" and an asshole you would be correct. As posted by ROADKING.
just bought a smith m&p15 and love it. So far i have 500 rounds through it and shoots flawlessly. I just put on an aimpoint comp c3 and added the quad rail and surefire light and cca cheek rest and grip and cant complain a bit. Shoots dead on right out of the box.
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Last edited by ROADKING; 02-12-2009 at 02:39 AM.
At the risk of sounding like an a-hole but didn't you join this forum several months ago asking for advice because you were new to the AR?
Ibassham, have you read the Chart that Rob S made,it should be stickied in the AR Technical forum. The Colt has a history, and is a military specification weapon, they MPI bolts, MPI Barrels, quality barrel steel, they are properly assembled consistantly with staked castle nuts and gas keys. I could go on just read the chart. If I read it correct S&W is in the top 4 but colt is in the top 2. So it depends on you, I am getting one of each S&W VTAC, and Colt 6920. For different reasons/ But you cant go wrong both are quality firearms, Colt is just a bit better overall IMHO. BTW the link to the chart is below.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642
Its......Its.....Beautiful.
Failure2Stop
06-07-09, 15:10
I want a gun
*Paraphrasing here, of course ;)*
Go HERE (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm), now.
If you really want a good gun for a good price and aren't just blowing smoke up our skirts you will buy one immediately, before they sell out in about 30 minutes.
I am not sure that this the best option for him. He will still need to get a lower, BCG and handguards or a rail system.
Go HERE (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm), now.
If you really want a good gun for a good price and aren't just blowing smoke up our skirts you will buy one immediately, before they sell out in about 30 minutes.
SWATcop556
06-07-09, 18:59
I am not sure that this the best option for him. He will still need to get a lower, BCG and handguards or a rail system.
Agreed, but there is also nothing wrong with having a second upper for when he will eventually want another lower for it to go on!! :D
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