View Full Version : DPMS question: Pros and Cons
my buddy is in the police academy right now and is very much interested of buying a personal AR for home defense and maybe a trunk gun in the future . He was asking me of the quality of the DPMS. Never own one or have no experience with one so my opinion is not an option.:D
The look very solid but is it mission ready? :D
your thoughts please.. thanks..:cool:
This (http://www.expressguns.com/expressguns/index.asp?ItemNo=RF066) is the answer.
No, not for a serious defensive weapon. If you poke around a bit here you will see why. DPMS does not build their rifles anywhere near the TDP.;)
if walmart sold ARs, they'd carry DPMS.
Their receivers are decent mil-spec forgings. Other than that, there seem to be better choices out there.
SWATcop556
06-07-09, 22:40
If I was given a DPMS for free I would defend my household with my 1911. But then again I'm a Tier 1 fanboy with an elitist attitude. :D
DPMS is not very well regarded around here due to them cutting corners and using lower quality parts. Their BCG are not properly tested and improperly staked (if at all). They come with the incorrect blue insert and shorter extractor spring. Barrels are almost certain to be .223 instead of the advertised and marked 5.56 and are the inferior 1/9 twist. Lowers have been known to be out of spec. FCG are low quality.
If you just want a range toy and will not put it to serious use then DPMS is ok I guess. I still wouldn't take one if it was given to me unless I was going to sell it to fund a different rifle.
Have your friend buy LMT or DDM4 and get twice the gun for a few hundred $$ more. It is well worth it and it will be a quality weapon that will serve his needs.
Buy cheap....buy twice. And friends don't let friends buy DPMS. :cool:
Smuckatelli
06-07-09, 22:49
are the inferior 1/9 twist.
Is there a difference between DPMS 1/9 and others or are you talking about 1/9 in general?
SWATcop556
06-07-09, 22:53
Is there a difference between DPMS 1/9 and others or are you talking about 1/9 in general?
1/9 in general. You are limited in the rounds you can shoot through the 1/9 vs. the 1/7.
While there are 1/9 that seem to do ok with the heavier grn bullet (ie. 69, 75, or 77 grns) all of the ones I have personally seen (quite a few) have had accuracy and out right key-hole issues.
A 1/7 can shoot anything you want to throw at it.
IMO DPMS is not a good choice for a defensive weapon. I would suggest telling your buddy to troll around this site and read all the stickies, and of course, Robs' chart. There is so much good information on this site. Along with alot of people with tons of real world experience with these rifles. I myself am a relative newbe to the world of the black rifle. I can't even begin to tell you how helpfull M4C and its members have been in guiding me in the right direction. I think if your buddy comes here and does some research, he'll see what features make up a quality carbine, and be able to make an educated descision as to what will fit his needs. Good luck and stay safe!
Their receivers are decent mil-spec forgings. Other than that, there seem to be better choices out there.
Yeah no kidding. I have an LMT upper on a DPMS lower (the receiver being the only DPMS part). I was at a match today and someone brought up DPMS, and said something to the tune of, "Doesn't Pass Mil-Spec" and he said, "Well you are running one!". I had a good laugh over that and told him basically the same thing you just posted.
As a side note, you wouldn't believe the number of guys that run 3-gun shoots with AR's that don't know what carrier key staking is (or maybe you would) :p
Swat,
I don't disagree with most of what you said. But you're sadly mis-informed about the "inferior" 1 in 9 twist.
In fact, for the rounds that most of us shoot the most of, a 1 in 9 twist is superior to a 1 in 7.
Don
Swat,
I don't disagree with most of what you said. But you're sadly mis-informed about the "inferior" 1 in 9 twist.
In fact, for the rounds that most of us shoot the most of, a 1 in 9 twist is superior to a 1 in 7.
Don
Obviously, this depends on use. However...
Personally speaking I buy guns with specifications geared towards my most critical use, not my least critical. Critical may not be the same thing as most common. I buy my guns with priorities in the following order:
self defense
hunting
precision shooting
training
competing
plinking
Hence, my top three benefit from heavier bullets in the 75-77 grain range and I buy my rifles with the 1:7 twist accordingly. Fortunately I can shoot the 55-62 grain ammo that I typically use for the last three just fine in my 1:7 barrels. POI shift between ammo types at typical ranges is minimal. My experience shooting the heavier bullets in 1:9 barrels years ago didn't impress me much.
(can't believe I get to use this picture twice in one day)
various ammo shot through a Colt 6933 at 50 yards (sorry for the shitty groups)
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/ops%2015th/DAY-TWO-SUPPRESSED.jpg
chavez_e_chavez
06-08-09, 08:42
if walmart sold ARs, they'd carry DPMS.
+1:D
very well said
Swat,
I don't disagree with most of what you said. But you're sadly mis-informed about the "inferior" 1 in 9 twist.
In fact, for the rounds that most of us shoot the most of, a 1 in 9 twist is superior to a 1 in 7.
Don
Uhm why? 55gr runs perfectly in my 1/7. And the "rounds that I am most" likely to use in a defensive situation are 75-77. These rounds not only give me greater range, but also are superior at close distances (read house).
C4
Pass on anything with the name DPMS for serious use.
If he wants to shoot dirt with it, then it will fit his needs perfectly.
C4
chavez_e_chavez
06-08-09, 09:19
I always say buy what you can afford and what is available...
I always say buy what you can afford and what is available...
And I always say, buy used quality (as they are often better than new junk).
Or better yet, save your money (strange concept in America) and buy quality (once).
C4
SWATcop556
06-08-09, 13:53
Swat,
I don't disagree with most of what you said. But you're sadly mis-informed about the "inferior" 1 in 9 twist.
In fact, for the rounds that most of us shoot the most of, a 1 in 9 twist is superior to a 1 in 7.
Don
Grant and Rob took care of this one for me. Thanks guys.
Grant and Rob took care of this one for me. Thanks guys.
No problem.
C4
Crap - I guess my Larue 1:8 twist is only half as good - Darn...
decodeddiesel
06-08-09, 15:50
Crap - I guess my Larue 1:8 twist is only half as good - Darn...
Why even post that? No one is ripping on 1 in 8" barrels. No one is ripping on you.
LaRue makes an awesome product and all of the ones I have seen are accurate as hell but it's hardly at hand with the topic being discussed.
Well it is perfectly in line with where this discussion has gone. 1:8 has a lighter sweet spot than 1:7.
I don't shoot well enough to notice the difference between my 1:9 and 1:7 rifles. Also. I (like 90% of the people here) don't use 77 gr bullets.
My point is that to call a 1:9 inferior is flat wrong. It may be inferior for a specific use, but it is not generally inferior.
A varmint hunter shooting light bullets at 4000 fps might be better served by a 1:12 for that matter. (exaggerating to make a point.)
Don
Well it is perfectly in line with where this discussion has gone. 1:8 has a lighter sweet spot than 1:7.
I don't shoot well enough to notice the difference between my 1:9 and 1:7 rifles. Also. I (like 90% of the people here) don't use 77 gr bullets.
My point is that to call a 1:9 inferior is flat wrong. It may be inferior for a specific use, but it is not generally inferior.
A varmint hunter shooting light bullets at 4000 fps might be better served by a 1:12 for that matter. (exaggerating to make a point.)
Don
I don't think anyone said that there is an "accuracy" difference between 1/9 and 1/7 (so not sure why you posted that).
I personally use 69gr, 75gr and 77gr. I imagine that a lot people use this ammo for home defense and training.
1/9 twist is not "inferior", but 1/7 will do everything a 1/9 twist PLUS 1/7 gives you the ability to use a much better bullets.
C4
I would think that a 1:9 bbl would fail to stabilize a very heavy bullet. In theory anyway.
I've never fired 77 gr mk262 ammo in any of my guns other than a CMP Bushmaster. (and even then, it was not necessary. It was a 200 yard match and the gun is far more accurate than I am)
Most of what I use is either 193 (55gr) or 855(62gr)
Some people speculate (I realize that its speculation) that the 855's bad terminal performance in that if fails to yaw and fragment has something to do with its use in fast twist bbls. Others believe it has to do with the lower velocities from the 14.5" bbls.
Either way. For the 55 and 62 gr rounds that 95% of AR shooters shoot 95% of the time, the 1:9 twist is fine, and for lighter bullets it is actually superior.
Again. They have different sweet spots as far as bullet weight. (length actually, but if you hold the cross secitonal area constant, as weight goes up, length goes up)
Don
Smuckatelli
06-08-09, 17:01
My unqualified advise to the OP is to buy the 'twist' for the type of ammo that you will have access to. If you are not reloading and ammo cost is an issue, you may be better off with a 1/9.
I bought my first rifle in March (1/9) and my second one last week (1/7), with the ammount of money that my daughter and I have sent down range since March......I could have purchased another Colt...I'm not bitching....just something to keep in mind.
I would think that a 1:9 bbl would fail to stabilize a very heavy bullet. In theory anyway.
Correct. Some 1/9's can shoot a 75gr pretty well, but it is a case by case type thing.
I've never fired 77 gr mk262 ammo in any of my guns other than a CMP Bushmaster.
Most of what I use is either 193 (55gr) or 855(62gr)
I mostly train with 55gr or 75gr Hornady TAP Practice. For defense, shoot distance or testing accuracy, I shoot 69gr and up.
Some people speculate (I realize that its speculation) that the 855's bad terminal performance in that if fails to yaw and fragment has something to do with its use in fast twist bbls. Others believe it has to do with the lower velocities from the 14.5" bbls.
M855 has a steel core. Great if you want to shoot through a door and kill somebody, but not good for shooting directly at someone (think pencil).
Either way. For the 55 and 62 gr rounds that 95% of AR shooters shoot 95% of the time, the 1:9 twist is fine, and for lighter bullets it is actually superior.
Again. They have different sweet spots as far as bullet weight. (length actually, but if you hold the cross secitonal area constant, as weight goes up, length goes up)
Don
So is 1/7 twist (FYI). That is the point we are trying to make to you. You DO NOT have to have a 1/9 twist gun in order to shoot 55gr ammo.
Heavier bullets gives the AR MUCH greater range than 55gr ammo. This IS why we like the 1/7 (or even 1/8) twist rate.
There is also another problem with a 1/9 twist barrel. Typically this twist rate is used by companies that make tier 2, 3 and 4 AR's. Commonly, a chamber that is NOT 556 NATO is also used. So when I see 1/9 twist on the barrel, I am immediately concerned about what the chamber actually is.
C4
If I was given a DPMS for free I would defend my household with my 1911. But then again I'm a Tier 1 fanboy with an elitist attitude. :D
LMAO. :D
Jeez. All the guy wanted to know was about the quality of DPMS. Or lack there of I should say.
HiggsBoson
06-08-09, 18:37
Jeez. All the guy wanted to know was about the quality of DPMS. Or lack there of I should say.
Since you brought it up... he could easily have used the "Search" function, or even just read some of the stickied threads in the Technical Forum here. A mere 30 minutes of reading will get you a good start on an education here, as well as several carbon copies of this thread... If he actually wanted people's opinions, they're already out there for everyone to read. No need for yet another thread of "Is my (insert Tier 2 or 3 manufacturer) AR good to go?" < WASH, RINSE, REPEAT> It gets really really repetitive, and I've only been here 6 months. I can only imagine how the long-time M4C members must feel about this. The mods and professionals here have the patience of Job, as far as I am concerned.
Either way. For the 55 and 62 gr rounds that 95% of AR shooters shoot 95% of the time, the 1:9 twist is fine, and for lighter bullets it is actually superior.
and again, I'm not buying my guns, or barrels, for what I shoot most of the time. If you are, that's fine, but I think you'll find that most members of this site do not. Grant and I can't be the only ones.
Fortunately I have something on the order of 7k rounds of 75 grain Wolf that cost me exactly what the 55 or 62 grain would have cost at the time. ;)
Since you brought it up... he could easily have used the "Search" function, or even just read some of the stickied threads in the Technical Forum here. A mere 30 minutes of reading will get you a good start on an education here, as well as several carbon copies of this thread... If he actually wanted people's opinions, they're already out there for everyone to read. No need for yet another thread of "Is my (insert Tier 2 or 3 manufacturer) AR good to go?" < WASH, RINSE, REPEAT> It gets really really repetitive, and I've only been here 6 months. I can only imagine how the long-time M4C members must feel about this. The mods and professionals here have the patience of Job, as far as I am concerned.
Relax dude, it was a joke. I will say my bad though. I should have put one of these after:rolleyes:so everyone could tell. For the record I completely agree with you.
SWATcop556
06-08-09, 20:51
Either way. For the 55 and 62 gr rounds that 95% of AR shooters shoot 95% of the time, the 1:9 twist is fine, and for lighter bullets it is actually superior.
And the documentation for this statement is............
If the shooter is only going to use it for range use and to kill paper then the 1/9 is fine with the 55 or 62 gr rounds. I seem to remember the OP asking about a LEO trainee who wants to use this for a DUTY rifle. Having just a little bit of experience in this application I can not recommend a rifle with suspect parts, suspect chambers, suspect barrel twists, etc.
The advantages of a 1/7 over a 1/9 are very well documented (here and elsewhere). The advantages of 69 gr and up for a DEFENSIVE round are also just as well documented and easily accessible. I was answering the OP regarding the use of a DPMS as a DUTY weapon and gave reasons why this was a poor choice and then explained why as opposed to just saying "DPMS blows" and then attached the appropriate smilie (ie :p)
For the casual range plinker and paper zombie killer DPMS will fit those needs. If a 1/7 (or 1/8) will do everything a 1/9 will do and then some, why not go with the 1/7. Better to have and never need, than need and be f**ked.
Smuckatelli
06-08-09, 22:28
1/9 in general. You are limited in the rounds you can shoot through the 1/9 vs. the 1/7.
While there are 1/9 that seem to do ok with the heavier grn bullet (ie. 69, 75, or 77 grns) all of the ones I have personally seen (quite a few) have had accuracy and out right key-hole issues.
A 1/7 can shoot anything you want to throw at it.
I understand from your last post that you are focused on the DPMS, that is why i asked if it was 1/9 specific to DPMS. Your in general leaves it open in relation to your last post.
I'm guessing that a 1/9 is okay, not the best but okay in some AR brands, is this accurate guess on my part?
I'm sorry, but I was just looking at some of the picture threads on here, and noticed a few by the OP of this thread. According to him and his pics, he owns at least 5 high end rifles. Including a DDM4 and a couple Noveskes. That said, I would love to know what the purpose of asking a stupid, repetative question like, "Is this POS as good as a Colt", is when you obviously know the answer?You sir are a douche. From now on when I see a stupid question like this, I'll check out some of the OPs other posts before trying to help him out. Well, at least we all learned some good info about 1/7 vs 1/9 twist.
Since the question has been answered and I have learned alot from side tracked threads...
A couple of weeks ago I was of the opinion my Colt 1/9 gun would shoot 77 gr SMK's as it grouped em in a tight little cluster, I was informed tempature and air density plays a part in what stabilizes and what doesn't and that it would most likely not stabilize them at colder temps. I was shooting in 90 degree weather and will try again in colder temps later, not that I don't beleive it, I just gotta see it. Anyway the 77 gr. ammo was loaded for a 1/8 twist gun I had and I have 1/7 twist guns that will digest it fine.
While on the other side (hunters/target shooters), some say the 1/7 twist will over rotate (?) a light jacketed bullet and the bullet will seperate or blow up in mid air. That's one reason some suggest a 1/9 twist is a better selection for lighter bullets. I can tell you from experience with Nosler Ballistic Tips and Federal HP's in 50 gr, that it ain't happened yet with my 1/7 twist guns. And of course the 1/7 guns will handle the heavies as well. So even to my Fudd mind, the 1/7 is a better option.
SWATcop556
06-08-09, 22:48
I understand from your last post that you are focused on the DPMS, that is why i asked if it was 1/9 specific to DPMS. Your in general leaves it open in relation to your last post.
I'm guessing that a 1/9 is okay, not the best but okay in some AR brands, is this accurate guess on my part?
Sorry about the confusion. My initial response about the 1/9 that you quoted was directed at all 1/9 barrels.
My DPMS specific post was in response to this turning into a 1/7 vs 1/9 thread and I was trying to show how my response was directed at the OP who asked about a DPMS rifle for duty use.
My preference is for a 1/7 barrel. Yes there are 1/9 that are ok, but NOT for any type of two-way range shooting. The ballistics of a heavier bullet out of a 1/7 barrel are the deciding factor for me, regardless if I will mostly shoot 55 gr rounds in training. Use a barrel that will do everything you want it to instead of buying one that will do 95% for 90% of the shooters.
The 1/9 is ok for a gun that will not be used in social setting, ie. shooting range, plinking, target practice. etc....
In a fighting rifle, to not take full advantage of a heavier bullet and therefore using the appropriate barrel for that round, is unwise.
Hope that helps a little.
geez.. some of you guys turned it into a war between 1/9 vs. 1/7 :D
got a lot infos and told my buddy about it and he will go to the noveske route instead. DPMS is no longer an option...
thanks again for the help everyone..:cool:
SWATcop556
06-08-09, 22:54
I'm sorry, but I was just looking at some of the picture threads on here, and noticed a few by the OP of this thread. According to him and his pics, he owns at least 5 high end rifles. Including a DDM4 and a couple Noveskes. That said, I would love to know what the purpose of asking a stupid, repetative question like, "Is this POS as good as a Colt", is when you obviously know the answer?You sir are a douche. From now on when I see a stupid question like this, I'll check out some of the OPs other posts before trying to help him out. Well, at least we all learned some good info about 1/7 vs 1/9 twist.
In his original post he stated he was asking for a friend who was considering a DPMS for duty use and stated clearly that he had absolutely NO experience with the rifle so he did not want to post his opinion on something he did not have FIRST HAND knowledge of.
I personally think that his question was a valid one if he was not sure regardless of his personal choices in rifles to purchase. I do believe the search function would have helped this situation quite a bit but calling someone a douche is a little much. :cool:
But I digress....
SWATcop556
06-08-09, 22:57
geez.. some of you guys turned it into a war between 1/9 vs. 1/7 :D
got a lot infos and told my buddy about it and he will go to the noveske route instead. DPMS is no longer an option...
thanks again for the help everyone..:cool:
You should have just punched him in his baby nuts from the start for even mentioning DPMS and starting this shit storm.
Glad to hear he's ging with a Tier 1 weapon!! :cool:
You should have just punched him in his baby nuts from the start for even mentioning DPMS and starting this shit storm.
Glad to hear he's ging with a Tier 1 weapon!! :cool:
he is on a budget.. besides he needs an approval from his commander in chief (wifey) before purchasing any type of weaponry.. LOL
on flip side.. the thread keeps me entertained for the whole day of debate..:D
Your right. Shouldn't have stooped to name calling. But it seems to me anyone with any experience with the AR15 platform, and who's been on this site for more than 5 minutes should already have a pretty good idea as to the quality of a DPMS rifle. Anyway, I know I've contributed nothing to this thread, so I'll shut up now.
Your right. Shouldn't have stooped to name calling. But it seems to me anyone with any experience with the AR15 platform, and who's been on this site for more than 5 minutes should already have a pretty good idea as to the quality of a DPMS rifle. Anyway, I know I've contributed nothing to this thread, so I'll shut up now.
no offense taken. :D
i just wanted m4c members take on the DPMS since i don't have any experience with it. :cool:
i just forgot to mention he is on budget.. academy and other stuff..;)
that's all folks.. thanls again..
SWATcop556
06-08-09, 23:20
he is on a budget.. besides he needs an approval from his commander in chief (wifey) before purchasing any type of weaponry.. LOL
on flip side.. the thread keeps me entertained for the whole day of debate..:D
I read ya on the approval for weapons purchase. I'm fortunate enough that my wife tolerates my BRD and understands.
SWATcop556
06-08-09, 23:21
Your right. Shouldn't have stooped to name calling. But it seems to me anyone with any experience with the AR15 platform, and who's been on this site for more than 5 minutes should already have a pretty good idea as to the quality of a DPMS rifle. Anyway, I know I've contributed nothing to this thread, so I'll shut up now.
No worries. ;)
Smuckatelli
06-08-09, 23:27
Hope that helps a little.
It does.
This thread just went into the toilet rapidly and no body seemed to be able to flush the turd.
I picked the 6721 because at the time of ordering, rounds were extremely hard to get in 55 gr and above and I didn't see a need to reach out past 300 meters. My thinking was that the 55 gr matched what we were shooting with the A1 with a slower twist and there was a high probability that I would be stuck with lighter rounds.
Once the requirement was identified for 600 yards, I had no choice but to get the 6920. Ammo (62-75gr) started to show up on the shelves about the same time.
Smuckatelli
06-08-09, 23:32
I read ya on the approval for weapons purchase. I'm fortunate enough that my wife tolerates my BRD and understands.
Probably many of us are in the same boat. My wife wanted the daughter to go to summer camp......I found a summer camp that requires her to shoot 600 yards, 2nd rifle purchased with no issues.
Now I need to figure out a way to get an M-40 authorization from the boss.:D
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