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View Full Version : AAR: Vickers Tactical 1911 Operator's Course 6/6-6/7 2009



John_Wayne777
06-07-09, 22:33
Training Day 1

We began day 1 with an explanation of the range content as drills designed to showcase the particulars of running the 1911 platform. Proper lubrication for the 1911 was discussed as the first teaching point. The 1911 is not a weapon that can be run with three drops of lube. Much like the M4, if you want it to run reliably, it must be generously lubricated. Mr. Vickers demonstrated his lubrication process which involved generously lubricating the slide rails, the front of the barrel, and the face of the hammer, which then runs into the internal fire control components lubricating them as well. As I have heard him say in other courses, here Mr. Vickers related that if you are down to your last drop of lubrication and you're wondering where it should go, the answer is the barrel hood. The barrel hood is the highest friction point on the weapon, as the slide has to slide over the top of it every time the weapon cycles. The action should then be cycled several times (including dryfires) to work the lube into all the appropriate nooks and crannies.

Range work began with the case on the front sight dryfire drill, which then led to ball and dummy, then command ball and dummy. Then moved to trigger reset drills. Then moved to 1-2-3 shot drills from the low ready. Then moved to drills done from the draw. Then competition requiring two shots kept in the 6" white circle on the target, moving progressively back until you dropped rounds out of the white. Last man standing wins.

The round count prior to breaking for lunch was very low, but even with this relatively low round count there were plenty of malfunctions. The strangest was probably one I experienced. I was carrying some spare magazines in a pocket (Leaving my double mag pouch on the belt for emergency reloads...when you're shooting a single stack you keep lots of spares handy) where apparently there was a shred of a gum wrapper. This wrapper somehow worked it's way down into one of my magazines and wrapped around the nose of one of the rounds in the middle of the magazine. As the weapon tried to feed that round the wrapper went into the chamber first, which prevented the round from feeding. That was a first for me. I always use a mag carrier to carry my spare magazines in or if I'm forced to use a pocket I use a pocket holder for the magazine to avoid getting crud in the magazine for exactly this reason. I see lots of guys who just carry the spare in the pocket and when I bring up the possibility of some crud getting in the magazine and causing a malfunction the usual response I get is "What are the odds of that actually happening?"

Ummm....pretty good, apparently.

Other malfunctions were the result of more common 1911 issues. There are a lot of little things involved in making a semi-auto pistol cycle reliably. There are even more little things involved in making an older design like a 1911 cycle reliably, largely due to how far the next round has to travel from the magazine into the chamber. Mr. Vickers explained how everything from the condition of the magazine spring and recoil spring to the shape of a bullet and even the crimp used on a round impacts the function of the 1911. He also explained how the 1911's rather delicate feeding cycle is made even more fragile by attempts to make the weapon smaller than the original 5" gun. The smaller the 1911 the smaller the margin of error for each and every part of the cycling equation becomes. This is why many attempts at compact 1911's fail miserably in the reliability department.

If you think of a 5" 1911's function like riding a unicycle, shrinking the 1911 to a 3" design is like trying to ride a unicycle on a tightrope while juggling porcupines and running chainsaws.

The general gist of the discussions held today on the 1911 can be boiled down into these points:

- Stick to 5" 1911's in .45 ACP with the traditional barrel bushing design.

- Use quality magazines.

- What most 1911 makers ship in their guns from the factory does not qualify as quality magazines. They are generally crap. For those looking for a good magazine to standardize on, the Wilson 7 round magazines should get the nod.

- Note that there is a marked difference between the lifespan of Wilson 7 round magazine springs and the 8 round magazine springs. The 8 round magazine springs are thinner and set much easier than the 7 round magazines. I've run the 8 round magazines for a long time and the difference between a brand new spring and one you've kept in a loaded magazine for a while is DRAMATIC.

- Regularly replace the recoil spring. The standard weight spring (16 pounds) is pretty much done after 1,000 rounds. The 18/18.5 pound springs last considerably longer.

- Again, the combination of magazine spring, recoil spring, bullet shape, overall length of the cartridge, etc is crucial to how a 1911 functions. Many 1911 makers do not use factory ammo to test their guns. They often use custom loaded ammo that presents the best case feeding scenario for the 1911. Most end users do not. This is a source of considerable pain and frustration.

After our little rap session on the 1911, Mr. Vickers went over reloads with the 1911. Mr. Vickers teaches using the weak hand thumb to manipulate the slide release, which tends to be the most efficient way to drop the slide from lock. The 1911's slide release is generally beyond the reach of most people's strong hand thumb, requiring either a shift in the grip to activate or use of the weak hand thumb.


Day 2 --

Training day 2 began in the classroom as Mr. Vickers took everyone through a complete detail strip of the 1911. This didn't exactly go smoothly.

- Hex head grip screws: These are a terrible idea. One individual in the class found out why firsthand as one of his hex-head grip screws broke from over-torquing, which prevented him from removing the right side grip on his pistol. If you have an ambidexterous safety, this sort of problem essentially leaves you unable to detail strip the weapon.

- Grip screws in general: Apparently a lot of people on the internet tell others to lock-tite grip screws. This is fruiter than Elton John in a strawberry patch. This can basically turn the grip screw bushings into the grip screws by locking them into place.

It should be noted here that we spent probably 15-20 minutes just getting grip screw issues dealt with...and this wasn't just happening on el-cheapo 1911's. Mr. Vickers referred to this as a "clue" about the 1911's overall suitability as a go-to platform for many people.

After finally getting through the detail strip, Mr. Vickers went through major points of concern on the 1911 platform.

- Extractor hook length: Mr. Vickers showed us the proper fit between the rim of the case and the hook of the extractor. Several students had weapons that were in dire need of proper fitting, including my pistol. I'd never had any issues with it, but my extractor hook was way out of spec. Mr. Vickers fixed this with a little filing.

- Extractor tension: The procedure for checking the tension on the extractor and for adjusting the tension on the extractor was covered. Here again several students had extractor tension issues. My pistol was probably the worst of the bunch as there was hardly any tension to speak of.

- Extractor hole spec: The way the hole for an extractor is drilled into the slide can make all the difference in how well the weapon can work. If the hole isn't to proper spec it can hamstring the extractor's performance.

- Extractor fitting pad: The fitting pad of the extractor has to be properly fitted to allow the extractor to operate properly. If you try to increase the tension on the extractor but are unable to improve it you may need to remove some of the material from the fitting pad area.

- Trigger: The trigger should move freely to the point of the trigger stop (if there is one) and when the frame is pointed in a muzzle down orientation the trigger should "reset" under it's own weight.

- Trigger bow: The rear of the trigger bow should be relieved at the top edge to clear the sear legs and beveled on the bottom edge to avoid premature engagement of the sear spring.

- Recoil spring guide: If you want to use shok-buffs the edges of the spring guide need to be slightly radiused to prevent chewing them up. It should also be relieved in the back to prevent peening that can interfere with the movement of the barrel link.

- Full length guide rods: Make for the illusion of a better slide to frame fit on many weapons. Serves no useful purpose on a 1911 meant for serious social purposes.

- Hammer: The hammer strut should move freely. The strut pin should be staked or "mushroomed" to stay inside the hammer.

- Hammer strut: If you see evidence of rubbing on the leaf spring, the area of the bend in the hammer strut may need to be relieved.

- Feed ramp & barrel throat: This is an area that often falls prey to well intentioned individuals with dremel tools. By design there is supposed to be a slight shelf between the feed ramp in the frame and the throat of the barrel. People often see this edge and assume it shouldn't be there since most other guns they have dealt with have a perfectly smooth feed ramp. 1911's are an entirely different animal.

- Ejectors: Should not be loose and should not protrude into the mag well. Here again, my pistol had an issue. My ejector was extended into the mag well and it showed evidence of peening on the underside of the ejector. Mr. Vickers corrected that with the sander.

It should be noted that the 1911's in the class ranged from 300 dollar Auto Ordanance guns to the most expensive custom makers you can hope to name, and to the best of my remembrance ALL of them required some tweaking and fixing. This is another "clue" about the 1911. Lots of people build them...but there aren't a lot of people who have the knowledge (or frankly the desire) to get all of the details right. My pistol was a semi-custom typical of what a lot of 1911 guys out there use and it had multiple issues. It probably only ran because it was a 5" gun that I went through great pains to keep it fed with decent ammo (Although in this course I used Blazer aluminum cased ammo with excellent results) in good magazines and I kept the recoil spring changed regularly. This again goes back to the margin of error issue discussed earlier in relation to attempts to make compact 1911's.

After lunch we hit the range where Mr. Vickers showed us some diagnostic drills to help check for proper function of the weapon. Then we finished up with a walkback drill and a few competitions for cash and fabulous prizes! Well...a fabulous prize, anyway.

The overall round count was low for this class, which given the price of .45 ACP ammo these days is probably a good thing. Some people hear "low round count" and think that the course can't be very good. That would be a mistake. As any of the students at this 1911 class can tell you, a couple of hundred rounds fired to Mr. Vickers' accuracy standards is extremely demanding. All of that being said, the main focus of the course was the opportunity to have armorer level instruction on the 1911 platform from someone who qualifies as a genuine expert on it. Mr. Vickers' experience is unique as he's been involved in some of the heaviest operational use of the 1911 platform anyone has ever seen both as an end user of the weapon and one of the guys trying to keep the weapons up and running for an elite unit.

It was said repeatedly in this course that the 1911 isn't for everyone. Mr. Vickers has famously called the 1911 an "enthusiast's" handgun, meaning a handgun suitable for those who are really dedicated to the platform. To run the 1911 with acceptable reliability you have to have a good understanding of how the weapon works, how all the individual pieces and the tolerances on those pieces relate to each other and impact function, how to solve a number of issues on your own, and how to maintain the weapon to ensure maximum reliability. You have to essentially become your own armorer. This is true no matter what brand of 1911 you buy, what wunder-smith you have work it over, or how much money you spent on it. Some people are happy to do this....

I'm not one of them. I carried a 1911 as my primary for a number of years primarily because of how easy they are to shoot under stress. The trigger and ergonomics of the 1911 are great, but the expense of a good one and the effort required to keep it in peak working order made me seek out other options. A couple of years ago I transitioned to polymer guns that are cheaper to buy and easier to maintain. With training and practice I've learned to shoot the plastic guns as well as I could shoot my 1911 at my peak with it. I could have shot any of the drills we did this weekend with my M&P or Glock 17 with equal or better performance than I turned in with my 1911.

Now don't get me wrong here...I like 1911s. When Templar pulled out the 40's vintage commercial Colt .38 super he rescued at a reasonable price recently I drooled over it just like any good 1911 fan would. I took a couple of really beat up Sistema pistols from Lipseys and I enjoyed refinishing them and getting them back into working order. One of the students at the course had a Swenson customized Colt Commander which I think is 9 kinds of cool...

...but that's all hobby stuff. Firearms as a hobby are one thing....but as tools for serious social purposes I'd rather that they just work without requiring so much TLC. Guns are inherently neat and I'm as much of a fan of neat guns as anybody...but if the day comes where I have to use a firearm to stop some jerk from killing me I'm not interested in doing it with a neat gun.

Everyone who carries or uses the 1911 should be REQUIRED to go through this course. Everyone who is pondering the purchase of a 191 for serious social purposes should be REQUIRED to go through this course. It is exceedingly rare to find a setting where you are FORCED to do an honest evaluation of the 1911 as a platform, warts and all. Often discussions of the 1911 take place more in the realm of myth and legend than in the cold hard realities of living with them day to day as a go-to platform. If you're considering dropping 3K on a custom or semi-custom 1911 you OWE IT TO YOURSELF to spend the 400 bucks on this course first. Nothing in the world sucks more than spending X thousand bucks on a 1911 only to discover that you aren't a 1911 guy. Even if you already know quite a bit about the 1911 and making it run, I GUARANTEE you will come away from this course having learned a great deal. Hell, before this course I thought I knew quite a bit about the 1911. Compared to some people I did, but that's sort of like being the tallest midget in the room.

Thanks to Mr. Vickers for his willingness to share this information and to take the time helping to correct some of the issues with our guns, to the AI for putting up with all the headaches of hosting a class, to Templar for bringing a couple of SMG's and some ammo to play with, and to my fellow students for making it a great class.

ErikL
06-07-09, 23:15
Great write up as usual, wish i could have made it.

BiggLee71
06-07-09, 23:35
very good class.(actually,it was freakin awesome!) j.w nailed it with his description.great group of students and well,what can i say about larry that probably hasn't been said ten thousand times.not only is the man amazing with his weapons but he is also an outstanding instructor.he was patient and humorous even when some of us had the deer in the headlights look.looking foward to the next class i can take!

JiMfraRED1911
06-07-09, 23:43
Best 400 bones I've spent. This class WILL straighten your ass out if you're thinking of running a 1911 in its intended role. Thanks a million to Larry, Dave, the two Tims and the others for the tips and wonderful memories.

Going thru my pics nao...I'll post them 2morrow.

TOrrock
06-08-09, 01:00
TD1

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TOrrock
06-08-09, 01:02
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TOrrock
06-08-09, 01:09
TD2

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After class subgun time...

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Mark71
06-08-09, 04:25
Thanks for the great write up. It looked like it was a great class and I wish I could have made it. Hopefully next year.

John_Wayne777
06-08-09, 05:25
This class really is one of those that everybody who owns a gun should be forced to take. This two days of training will give you more GOOD information on the 1911 than YEARS of research and trial and error on your own would provide. While it's true that in general training from a competent instructor is a shortcut to good results, it is especially true in the case of this class.

glockem
06-08-09, 06:40
This class really is one of those that everybody who owns a gun should be forced to take. This two days of training will give you more GOOD information on the 1911 than YEARS of research and trial and error on your own would provide. While it's true that in general training from a competent instructor is a shortcut to good results, it is especially true in the case of this class.

I wholehardedly agree. The amount of 1911 specific information shared in this class would take someone thousands of rounds through multiple guns over several years to learn. If you are even thinking about running a 1911 style gun for personal protection, then this course is a must. It was absolutely great.

Littlelebowski
06-08-09, 07:47
Sounds like some myths about the 1911 were shattered. Care to elaborate? Great review by the way.

Robb Jensen
06-08-09, 08:00
Good AAR Tim.

So many people believe in so many of the gun myths that I sometimes go crazy at the store trying to explain that somethings just aren't true.

d90king
06-08-09, 09:56
Looks like a great class! I wish I could have made it, but back to back classes are hard to pull off with the family this time of year... Great write up JW and great pics as usual Templar...


CHECK FOR TICKS!;)

TOrrock
06-08-09, 10:06
Good AAR Tim.

So many people believe in so many of the gun myths that I sometimes go crazy at the store trying to explain that somethings just aren't true.


Yup. Sometimes I would start bleeding from my eyes trying to set people right when I was behind the counter....:D

Great write up JW.

The team drills on TD2 were a lot of fun and were very effective on bringing to light what people need to work on, whether is was sight alignment/living in the wobble zone, or trigger control. Go Team T.I.P.! :D

John_Wayne777 made it back to approximately 110 yards on the walk back drill on TD2.....that's with a 1911 in .45 ACP with irons.....

Great class, good group of guys too. I was very happy with my Springfield Armory MC Operator. It had already been through two Vickers classes and one of Dave Pennington's high volume concealed carry class, it hasn't bobbled yet, but I don't treat it like a Glock 19 either.

I highly recommend this class for any 1911 shooter.

John_Wayne777
06-08-09, 10:46
Sounds like some myths about the 1911 were shattered. Care to elaborate? Great review by the way.

The 1911 itself is the subject of a lot of myth and legend because of it's history. As often happens in the gun world grains of truth get surrounded by layers of BS and the whole package becomes accepted as gospel. In WWII there was a set of standards laid down for the 1911 that all manufacturers had to observe. A committee from the DOD assured compliance with those standards. The GI ball ammo used was taper crimped and designed for reliability. It was produced with enormous amounts of skilled labor and rigid QC and specs designed to make it function as a combat weapon.

That's not the case today. There's no standard for producing the 1911 that all makers observe. The careful and competent hand fitting crucial to making a 1911 run reliably isn't done partially because it's insanely expensive in the era of CNC machines and partly because so much of the 1911 world has evolved around insane accuracy standards and competition parts to the point that few people seem to understand what a combat sidearm is supposed to do. People use a wide range of ammo that wasn't even contemplated by ammo or weapon designers in 1942.

It's often been argued that the 1911's were "inaccurate" because of loose tolerances to make them function reliably in combat. In reality the major fault with the accuracy of the 1911's used in the US military was the shooter. The US military as a whole dedicates PITIFULLY few resources to teaching people how to use a handgun. I've got two Sistema 1911's that I bought on my C&R license for 200 bucks a piece. To say they were in bad shape when I got them would be a charitable description. One has a badly pitted bore and worn rifling and in the other you can barely see any rifling left at all....and yet BOTH will shot big ragged one hole groups if I do my part on the trigger. Even though they are old and were hideously abused, they are STILL more accurate than I am. I'm certainly not an exceptional shooter. I'd rate myself as barely mediocre...but I am certainly better than most. If *I* can't out-shoot a beat up war horse I sincerely doubt most shooters can.

...and yet on the flip side of that coin we have lots of super-expensive 1911's that have accuracy guarantees. Now having a gun that is guaranteed to shoot 1.5" at 25 yards with the right ammo certainly isn't a bad thing, but most who buy such a gun would be much better off spending the X thousand dollars used for that pistol on training. The weapon itself isn't going to make you accurate...trigger control does. Trigger control comes through training and practice. Here again I'm not bashing anyone's choice to buy a nice custom 1911. If you want one, more power to you. I do think, however, people take the inherent mechanical accuracy of a potential purchase and blow it way the hell out of proportion. I think that energy would be better spent worrying about getting a 1911 that will run with defensive ammo fed from quality magazines, at least for weapons meant for serious social purposes.

If you picture the gun magazine mystique of the 1911 as a beautiful bird on the wing, this course is a load of birdshot knocking it right out of the sky. One of the folks in the classroom during the armorer portion was discussing the 1911 with LAV as we were working on our guns and remarked something to the effect of "After using Glocks for a while and looking at all of this now, I wonder why in the hell I ever put up with all this nonsense in the first place."

A good question. I've personally held the opinion that 1911's aren't for everyone ever since I first started living with them (by choice, mind you) as a primary carry gun. Before ever knowing about the existence of this course I was looking to replace my 1911 with something that was cheaper and easier to maintain. Taking this course brought back every memory of my time with the 1911 (good and bad) and underscored the reasons why I decided to go another way.

Invariably some will read what I have written and take away from it that the course was a 1911 bash fest. That's not the case. The course itself just presents the raw, unvarnished truth about the 1911 as a go-to platform. Exactly what you take away from it is totally dependent upon the perspective you have going into it. I'm sure there are some guys who walked away from the course more jazzed about 1911's than they've ever been because NOW they know what to look for and how to solve some common problems. I personally walked away thinking that my decision to shelve my 1911's was a good one, and that unless God sees fit to drop vast sums of money in my lap out of the blue that I won't be buying any more expensive 1911s. If I see an old Colt at a good price I'll snatch it up, but I won't be carrying it as a go-to platform any more than I will carry my nickel plated S&W model 27.

Reasonable people can look at the same set of objective facts and reach different conclusions about their personal situation based on those facts. Personally I have neither the time, money, or interest to use the 1911 as my go-to platform. Were I in a position to decide for an agency or team I wouldn't select the 1911 because of the huge support nightmare that accompanies them. They just aren't for me.

I say this as a guy who:

- has carried one for years
- has spent thousands of dollars training and practicing with the 1911
- has had largely reliable service from the specimens that I've owned

That's just my perspective based on personal experience which was reinforced by the content of this class. My gun worked reliably in the class even with aluminum cased ammo, and it's worked reliably for many thousands of rounds prior to this course. I didn't have any trouble getting my gun apart or getting it put back together. I wasn't effected by a particularly troublesome specimen of 1911 that turned me sour on the whole concept. It's just the logical end to a trajectory I was already on for quite a while.

Others may have an entirely different perspective based on the factors unique to their situations. That's cool too.

Sigmax
06-08-09, 11:46
Another great experience with Larry's class. Each time you come away with such an abundance of information that you could literally take the same class 2 or 3 times and learn something new each time.

This class was no exception and learned things, both good and bad, about the 1911 that we really could not have learned from anyone else as detailed in the AAR by John_Wayne777. If you are even thinking about seriously running a 1911 this is a must take course. You learn the good, the bad, and the ugly of this platform. And you come away with a true appreciation of the skills & information needed to properly run this gun. Information you certainly will not get from any gun magazine or builder.

And as always as a bonus you get information on a wide range of topics from across the industry. LAV is extremely forth right with his opinions and experiences & always communicates them with an entertaining amount of color.

A special thanks, as always to Dave P for his hard work & instruction and to Templar and John_Wayne777 for their hospitality and willingness to pitch in and help dig me out of a hole I dug for myself detail stripping my 1911. They both went out of their way to help out everyone in the class. Well worth the 19 hours I spent traveling to and from South Hill this weekend.

EDIT: DITTO everything John_Wayne777 said, as he summed it up the best. How many guns choked with in the first 50 rounds of class? Several. I won't be selling all my 1911's but I will be more dedicated to maintaining them correctly certainly & have more realistic expectations about their performance.

And as always, GO TEAM TIP!!

John_Wayne777
06-08-09, 13:20
Another thing worth mentioning from this course:

Even though the course was basically intended to teach you how to run a 1911 and keep it running, the instruction on the basics of shooting accurately were incredibly valuable and are a shortcut to success. Learning to properly control the trigger and how to see the sights early on in your life will make all the difference in the world.

I've been asked in the past why LAV bothers with the walkback drill. It's very simple: That drill is a 100% fundamentals drill. When you are shooting at a 12" steel plate at 110-115 yards with an open sighted handgun, you have to exercise proper trigger control. You have to learn to live with your "wobble zone". In this course EVERY walkback drill went to at least 100 yards. Think about what that means. In every drill we had at least a few people who were making hits on a 12" steel plate with open sighted handguns at 50, 60, 75, 90, and 100 yards.

With the 1911 shooting 230 grain hardball (I think most of us were shooting 230 grain hardball) this required compensation for bullet drop. On the last walkback drill I was actually aiming at a line in the berm above the white plate. In the first two walkbacks I ended up striking out at around 100 yards, always hitting low. I was firmly convinced this was because of the bullet drop. I heard LAV and the AI discussing their holdover and I adopted their aiming point to see if I could lob the round in there. When I broke the shot my sights were actually slightly below that line and to the right of the plate...but the sights were perfectly parallel and I pulled the trigger in a way that wouldn't have dropped the case off the front sight. The end result was a hit in what I believe was the center of the plate.

All of that fundamentals stuff works, folks.

JiMfraRED1911
06-08-09, 13:41
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0053.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0052.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0054.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0034.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0069.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0114.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0014.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0085.jpg

Sidewinder6
06-08-09, 13:43
I have not taken Larry's class yet but have a strong interest. Out of curiousity, if Mr Vickers picks up a gun to carry these days, what would that gun be? I ask this being aware of his stellar reputation as an authority on the 1911 as well as his input on some of the modern designs that were produced to replace the M92.

I suspect he can run anything, but he must have something he has bonded with.

theJanitor
06-08-09, 14:17
I just acquired a special 1911, a LAV built 1911. now I just need to find a way to get 4000+miles to get to this class. :(

John_Wayne777
06-08-09, 14:20
I have not taken Larry's class yet but have a strong interest. Out of curiousity, if Mr Vickers picks up a gun to carry these days, what would that gun be?


Mr. Vickers uses a number of different handguns when training people. He generally tries to show up with the type of weapon and equipment that his students in a class will be using. I've seen him with an H&K P30, 1911s of various descriptions, and Glocks.

I've never asked him what he carries on a daily basis in his regular life because I don't want him to have to cut off my head and put it in a safe to preserve the integrity of that information. :D

BiggLee71
06-08-09, 14:22
The first "hands on" topic and probably the most important...lubrication.


http://s685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/?action=view&current=DSC_0006.jpg&t=1244485836743

c'mon jimfra,post some dawgone pics! lol.i know we got some good ones in there.

BiggLee71
06-08-09, 14:31
I have not taken Larry's class yet but have a strong interest. Out of curiousity, if Mr Vickers picks up a gun to carry these days, what would that gun be? I ask this being aware of his stellar reputation as an authority on the 1911 as well as his input on some of the modern designs that were produced to replace the M92.

I suspect he can run anything, but he must have something he has bonded with.

weapon he has bonded with?nah,larry could probably pick up a rock,throw from a hundred yards away and kill someone.

JiMfraRED1911
06-08-09, 15:38
c'mon jimfra,post some dawgone pics! lol.i know we got some good ones in there.

Dag blasted computers...

BT2012
06-08-09, 16:00
JW,

Great AAR and I'm glad you picked me to be on the winning team :). TEAM TIP are :cool: dudes. This class was worth every penny and long distance trip to get there. We got instructional training, no B.S. information about 1911s and tweaking of our 1911s done by LAV, all in 2 days! I recommend this course for those who carry 1911 for military, law enforcement and CCW for self-defense and as a stepping stone to his pistolsmith course if you decide to pursue this further. This course will definitely let you know if the 1911 will end up being your hobby gun or a serious carry gun.

The walk back is a great confidence builder and LAV points out a handgun is not confined to 25 yards as long as you have trigger control and live with the wobble zone. Team competition is another great way to end on the last day of training. You can observe how well your trigger control is with a little pressure and timing.


DP,

Thanks for the securing a classroom with South Hill PD. Without the classroom, we would only be imagining LAV tweaking our 1911s. Now we all leave this class with with an improved 1911.


Templar,

I see JW is your official male model for M4C

John_Wayne777
06-08-09, 16:14
1. Me and "male model" in the same sentence just sounds....wrong.

2. Did anyone get any good pics of LAV going over the reload? It would come in handy for those asking questions about how he drops the slide.

subzero
06-08-09, 16:23
- Ejectors: Should not be loose and should not protrude into the mag well. Here again, my pistol had an issue. My ejector was extended into the mag well and it showed evidence of peening on the underside of the ejector. Mr. Vickers corrected that with the sander.

The first 1911 class I went to, I noticed a similar thing on my RRA 1911. I figure it was because I was slamming mags in hard and the top of the lip was hitting the bottom of the ejector. I showed it to LAV and he said "yep", walked over to the sander, BRRROWWP and I suddenly had a standard length ejector.

'Well, that takes care of that," I remember thinking.

Regarding the grip screws: did LAV happen to mention how grip screws should be held in? I seem to recall that the bushings should be staked (duh) but if not, Loctite the bushings and nail polish on the grip screw so it breaks before the bushing chemical bond breaks.

John_Wayne777
06-08-09, 16:38
Regarding the grip screws: did LAV happen to mention how grip screws should be held in? I seem to recall that the bushings should be staked (duh) but if not, Loctite the bushings and nail polish on the grip screw so it breaks before the bushing chemical bond breaks.

Locktite on the bushings was given a thumbs up, as was staking. Having staked grip screw bushings is nice, but not strictly necessary. LAV said he didn't bother to stake the bushings on his own guns.

Irish
06-08-09, 16:40
Great write up! Thanks for sharing alot of really valuable info.

JiMfraRED1911
06-08-09, 16:44
*Clears throat, cracks knuckles*

Ok...

The first "hands on" on topic covered in class (and probably the most important)...lubrication.

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0006.jpg


1. Me and "male model" in the same sentence just sounds....wrong.

2. Did anyone get any good pics of LAV going over the reload? It would come in handy for those asking questions about how he drops the slide.

I got them.

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0063.jpg


http://http://s685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0062.jpg

http://http://s685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0064.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0062.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0064.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0058.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0061.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0060.jpg

For the lefties...index finger does it all. Larry said, with practice, that a left-handed user could be just and fast IF NOT faster than righties when it comes to reloading from slide lock.

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0066.jpg

Now it's our turn...

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0073.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0079.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0071.jpg

TD2 (the meat n' potatoes of this course)

"The Quantico Gun" broken down

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0119.jpg

Mr. Vickers' magic file

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0121.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0123.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0128.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0133.jpg

Before...

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0126.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0129.jpg

After the trip thru Larry's belt sander

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0130.jpg

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv216/JiMfraRED1911/DSC_0142.jpg

Incredible experience and HIGHLY recommended to all fans of the 1911.

FM18
06-08-09, 20:57
Excellent AAR John Wayne:) I will put this on the list of courses that I need to attend. Thanks for sharing the great write up! I don't normally carry a 1911 but do own one so it would be good to learn the needed details to keep it running smoothly when I do get to operate it! LV is a lively and to the point instructor. I have been through a three day combo course he taught with handguns and carbines last year down in South Hill and got a lot out of that course:cool:

macman37
06-08-09, 21:25
Great AAR and sweet pics!

flyfishr
06-08-09, 22:02
Can only echo the previously stated superlatives for what was my first LAV class. The man is a first class instructor, and I went away with some key points to help my shooting. And of course the half day spent breaking down and reassembling the 1911s, and the tweaking of various parts was itself worth the trip. As LAV said early on, I went away from the course with an understanding that one has to be prepared for a significantly greater maintenance effort to keep the 1911 running at top form. Some are, some aren't.

And danged if some of those other guys can't shoot those rainbow trajectory guns at a long distance!

Thanks to both Larry and Dave for putting on a smooth-running class slam full of great info!

TOrrock
06-09-09, 09:22
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%201911%20Operators%20June%206-7%2009/P1020615.jpg

Sidewinder6
06-09-09, 10:17
Thanks for the follow up on the LAV carry issue. I understand the responses, I just thought I'd toss the question out in case he was in a free speaking mood.

What was the purpose of sanding down the face of the guide rod?

Thanks in advance..

SHIVAN
06-09-09, 10:36
What was the purpose of sanding down the face of the guide rod?

So it doesn't batter the ever loving hell out of the barrel link area. It's relieves a contact point between the back of the guide rod, and the barrel assembly.

Sidewinder6
06-09-09, 10:47
So it doesn't batter the ever loving hell out of the barrel link area. It's relieves a contact point between the back of the guide rod, and the barrel assembly.

Thanks for the response.

I always use 3x magnifying glasses when I detail strip mine to examine the lugs and other stress points carefully but this is an interesting relief. It is good to get good info in the threads like this.

Thanks again.

John_Wayne777
06-09-09, 11:01
What was the purpose of sanding down the face of the guide rod?

Thanks in advance..

As Shivan noted, it is done to prevent the recoil spring guide from peening the area under the barrel where the link travels, which can interfere with the link's movement and lock up the weapon.

Business_Casual
06-09-09, 11:17
Was there any discussion if he will have another Vickers' spec 1911 on the market again - or will he stick with just the parts?

M_P

jtb0311
06-09-09, 11:21
I'll just echo what others said - it was a terrific class. I was a 1911 fan before, and I'm an even greater 1911 fan now (I like Glocks too though). I hope to take LAV's 1911 gunsmithing course in the future.

FWIW, I was shooting a Colt M1991A1 I bought for less than $500 in 1997. I had a gunsmith do some work on it in 2001 (new trigger, beaver tail, etc) and early this year I installed a new sight and fitted a barrel. The grand total I've got in this pistol is probably around $1000-$1200. It ran flawlessly for this class, which reflected a comment that LAV made. I'm paraphrasing, but don't assume a $4000 custom, hand built 1911 is going to work like it should, and don't assume that two identical models of factory built guns will work the same either.

Did anyone else get bug bites?

Liberty5.56
06-09-09, 11:22
In the interest of full disclosure, there was 1 casualty in this class... DP's roll of target pasters :) Seriously though, of the 3 classes I've taken, this group was the most switched on, safe, and accurate shooters. DP and LAV are simply the best!
One of the Tims

jtb0311
06-09-09, 11:23
Was there any discussion if he will have another Vickers' spec 1911 on the market again - or will he stick with just the parts?

M_P

I don't think there was discussion of this beyond him saying that building 1911s again himself was something he could fall back on if he needed to.

decodeddiesel
06-09-09, 12:06
As someone on the outside looking in, I must say I am impressed. I really had no idea what a class like this would be about, and now thanks to this outstanding thread and AAR I know.

I figured everyone there would be running some high dollar full house custom gun and this class would be more "look what I brought" kind of thing. From the write-up and pics it seems the opposite could not be more true. Looks like a great mix of low dollar pistols and mid-range guns, all meant for serious use.

I am very impressed to hear an honest account of the troubles and issues people had with their weapons. Seriously, I know that sounds weird but it makes the class genuine in my opinion. The fact that LAV worked his magic on the student's guns to get them up and running makes the whole thing well worth the price of admittance.

I would really REALLY like to go to this class in the future. Great job on the AAR to all who contributed to this thread.

BiggLee71
06-09-09, 12:18
Thanks for the follow up on the LAV carry issue. I understand the responses, I just thought I'd toss the question out in case he was in a free speaking mood.

What was the purpose of sanding down the face of the guide rod?

Thanks in advance..

we're just joking around.larry likes to joke around,so,i guess we're stiil in the good/joking mood from the weekend.
uumm,seriously tho,i would venture to guess that he carries whatever he feels like.(as his proficiency level allows for that luxury).
again,thanks everyone for the great time.a big thank you to larry for sharing his skills and expertise with us.thanks to dave for assisting larry.thanks to tim(templar) for the nice bonus after class.thanks to jw for the detailed aar.jimfrared,cpt of team FUBAR,for the pics.i aplogize if i left someone out,so,a big thanks to them for making this weekend such great time.hope we all get to train again in the future at another one of lav's awesome classes.
oh yeah,larry,are you sure the trigger cant come out thru the front?

Dave Williams
06-09-09, 13:32
Whoever was using that Hackathorn Special holster gets major style points!

Dave Williams

TOrrock
06-09-09, 14:06
Whoever was using that Hackathorn Special holster gets major style points!

Dave Williams

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%201911%20Operators%20June%206-7%2009/KenHackathornSpecial.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%201911%20Operators%20June%206-7%2009/TD1/P1020578.jpg

John_Wayne777
06-09-09, 15:05
I figured everyone there would be running some high dollar full house custom gun and this class would be more "look what I brought" kind of thing. From the write-up and pics it seems the opposite could not be more true.


It certainly wasn't a big 1911 circle jerk. It was a cold, hard, realistic look at the 1911 as a platform for serious use/combat use based on the experiences of an individual who has more experience with that than anyone since WWII.

If there's one thing you can rely on at a VT course, it is that no sunshine will be blown up your skirt.

BT2012
06-09-09, 15:24
Was there any discussion if he will have another Vickers' spec 1911 on the market again - or will he stick with just the parts?

M_P

There's probably slim to no chance of him returning to building custom 1911s. He is busy with consulting, training and filming T.I. The work he does on a 1911 to make it a serious combat gun is considered very labor intensive. You can take his pistolsmith course that he does and you will learn what it takes to build one.

decodeddiesel
06-09-09, 15:26
It certainly wasn't a big 1911 circle jerk. It was a cold, hard, realistic look at the 1911 as a platform for serious use/combat use based on the experiences of an individual who has more experience with that than anyone since WWII.

If there's one thing you can rely on at a VT course, it is that no sunshine will be blown up your skirt.

That is outstanding. I will be taking this course ASAP.

SHIVAN
06-09-09, 15:48
There's probably slim to no chance of him returning to building custom 1911s. He is busy with consulting, training and filming T.I. The work he does on a 1911 to make it a serious combat gun is considered very labor intensive. You can take his pistolsmith course that he does and you will learn what it takes to build one.

I asked him point blank, what amount of money would it take for him to build up a 1911 these days...

His reply was not vague, nor did it entertain doing it again. I suppose there is always a possibility, but I'd count nuclear war as a higher probability. :D

Business_Casual
06-09-09, 16:20
There's probably slim to no chance of him returning to building custom 1911s. He is busy with consulting, training and filming T.I. The work he does on a 1911 to make it a serious combat gun is considered very labor intensive. You can take his pistolsmith course that he does and you will learn what it takes to build one.

That's not what I meant. I meant a la Vickers Nighthawk. Don't worry about it.

M_P

Wayne Dobbs
06-09-09, 16:29
I've seen Larry teach a class with a Glock 19, a Nighthawk Vickers 1911 and a sweet Wilson Combat CQB in 9mm. He shoots them all well and I bet he could take a Lorcin and make it look good.

Hey what's the deal with that Sterling???

Sam
06-09-09, 18:45
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%201911%20Operators%20June%206-7%2009/KenHackathornSpecial.jpg




Yep, and low serial number too.

Jason Burton
06-09-09, 22:19
... John_Wayne777 made it back to approximately 110 yards on the walk back drill on TD2.....that's with a 1911 in .45 ACP with irons...

Kudos on that... the walk back drill in Larry's classes are a serious gut-check and, no matter how you cut it, 110 yards is a long way with any pistol. ;)

Looks like a very good class... reminds me that I’m looking forward to a bit of trigger time with Larry later on this year.

And the Hackathorn Special does indeed warrant mega style points.

jtb0311
06-11-09, 16:12
Hey what's the deal with that Sterling???

Templar brought some extra stuff to shoot after the class finished.

m4fun
06-11-09, 21:27
Looks like and awesome class guys. Wish I could have attended, but with the Vickers AK class the weekend before it would have put me into divorce territory.

Great write-up JW!

YVK
06-11-09, 21:58
With the 1911 shooting 230 grain hardball (I think most of us were shooting 230 grain hardball) this required compensation for bullet drop. On the last walkback drill I was actually aiming at a line in the berm above the white plate. In the first two walkbacks I ended up striking out at around 100 yards, always hitting low. I was firmly convinced this was because of the bullet drop. I heard LAV and the AI discussing their holdover and I adopted their aiming point to see if I could lob the round in there

I've thought about this recently, and my thinking lead to me spending about 2 hours with online ballistic calculators. The result was somewhat surprising as I concluded that the optimal zero for 5 inch pistol shooting 230 gr ball would be somewhere around 50 yards. That should give a relatively flat path from 0 to 50, and not too bad of a holdover for 100. Did Larry comment on preferred zero for 1911? I know what he prefers for a carbine, but not pistol.

Great AAR.

jtb0311
06-11-09, 22:19
I don't recall Larry saying anything about zeros for handguns. The walk back drill was basically meant to show us that by applying the fundamentals you can be accurate a lot farther than you think. I got out to about 70 yards, which is almost 3x as far as I've ever shot a handgun. JW777 got to like 110 yards.

Aubrey
06-12-09, 16:24
Nice AAR. Thanks for taking the time. This class, or preferrably the armorer's class, is on my to-do-list.

Shadow1198
06-12-09, 17:41
Excellent AAR! This just makes the anticipation of attending a Vicker's course that much harder. ;)

John_Wayne777
06-12-09, 20:04
I've thought about this recently, and my thinking lead to me spending about 2 hours with online ballistic calculators. The result was somewhat surprising as I concluded that the optimal zero for 5 inch pistol shooting 230 gr ball would be somewhere around 50 yards. That should give a relatively flat path from 0 to 50, and not too bad of a holdover for 100. Did Larry comment on preferred zero for 1911? I know what he prefers for a carbine, but not pistol.

Great AAR.

1. Thanks for the compliment.

2. I've actually never heard LAV talk about zeros for handguns. I think most are zeroed for 25 yards. Realistically the odds of taking a 110 yard shot with a pistol under gunfight conditions are pretty slim. I'd think the 25 yard zero would be fine.

John_Wayne777
06-12-09, 20:09
Excellent AAR! This just makes the anticipation of attending a Vicker's course that much harder. ;)

Vickers training courses really are a superb investment of your training dollar. His instruction has been invaluable in improving my shooting. Some may consider that sucking up, but it's the God's-honest truth. There were a lot of pieces of the puzzle that I didn't have down until I took his classes.

MarshallDodge
06-12-09, 21:18
Nicely written AAR John_Wayne. I have been shooting the 1911 for a long time and learn more about it every day.

flyfishr
06-13-09, 04:55
[Wow, the magic of computers. Was tying a response to JW's, my internet connection broke temporarily, and in trying to restore it I manged to post this in another thread. Like my shooting - - - off target.]

I so like the 1911. But find myself carrying an M&P compact mostly. I can leave it in the truck (locked in a case) when I go in places I can't carry. While I'd be really upset if someone broke in and stole it, I'd be REALLY upset if someone stole a nice 1911 costing thousands more. And the M&P always goes bang.

As for adjustments, my Wilson, albeit a 4" model, ran fine on day one. And all that was adjusted Sun AM was the bevel on the back of the trigger. On day two, I had three FTFs, right after inserting fresh mags with the slide locked back. I was pretty sure the mag was locked in each time, but . . .

I asked Larry if the failures were anything that had a known cause, and he said, What'd I tell you about 4-inch guns?" So I said, "Yeah, but it was running fine yesterday, before we detail stripped it. Could it be something to do with that?"

To which he replied, with a shake of his head, "Four inch guns . . ."

In the gun's defense, it ran fine after that, and actually hasn't missed a beat since a short break in period when new. Maybe I was using a mag that had been dropped and had some dirt in it. Or maybe a gum wrapper . . .

Nonetheless, and as an example of rationalizing at its best the use of 1911s, I'll say: Since ammo is so expensive, I'll have to cut back, and the 1911 can be my barbeque gun (I saw that term in a gun mag, and had to get someone to explain it - - - I'm slow). Maybe I'll even get a new high end custom to fit that niche even better.

Meanwhile, I'll carry the M&P.

glockem
06-13-09, 10:53
Nonetheless, and as an example of rationalizing at its best the use of 1911s, I'll say: Since ammo is so expensive, I'll have to cut back, and the 1911 can be my barbeque gun (I saw that term in a gun mag, and had to get someone to explain it - - - I'm slow). Maybe I'll even get a new high end custom to fit that niche even better.



The way you shot that Wilson, I'd just use the money for ammo and shoot the hell out of it.

NinjaMedic
06-27-09, 01:20
What was Larry's take on extended magwells? Im sure he has an opinion one way or the other.

TOrrock
06-27-09, 09:21
What was Larry's take on extended magwells? Im sure he has an opinion one way or the other.

He's in favor.....I was using my MC Operator at the special M4 Mod/Staff class he did for us and I did not have an extended mag well on it at the time, and that was the only criticism I remember him making of my reloads. I ordered a Nighthawk mainspring housing with a removeable mag well and installed it, and it did make a big difference, as well as being fairly low profile.

John_Wayne777
06-28-09, 11:47
Not that LAV's opinion needs any re-enforcement from me, but in the time I've spent with the 1911 I've found that magwells do make reloads slicker and more positive as well. Just make sure you use the right sized baseplates on your magazines so that the magwell doesn't interfere with proper seating of the magazine.

Robb Jensen
06-28-09, 11:54
I find that the mag goes into the gun at the same speed. A magwell just allows an imperfect reload to make it into the gun.

Watch AMU shooter CPL Travis Tomasie shooting a Glock 17 with no magwell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StXMHw32kjA

Consistency is the key.

The Dumb Gun Collector
07-17-09, 23:11
I took this class a few years back and I came away a much bigger fan of the 1911 that before I went. One thing that Mr. V consistently says is that the 1911 is the most shootable combat handgun on the market. A lot of wags who would jump on a "nobody" who said this are a little reticent to launch broadsides at Larry (understandably).

Of all the classes I have taken Larry's 1911 class was probably the most informative and entertaining.

Littlelebowski
07-20-09, 07:59
I took this class a few years back and I came away a much bigger fan of the 1911 that before I went. One thing that Mr. V consistently says is that the 1911 is the most shootable combat handgun on the market. A lot of wags who would jump on a "nobody" who said this are a little reticent to launch broadsides at Larry (understandably).


I don't think I've ever seen anyone claim that the 1911 isn't shootable.