View Full Version : Concealed Carry and Drinking
mattpittinger
06-08-09, 11:16
The other night and friend and I went to dinner. We both carry 100% of the time. We were sitting there talking and he ordered a Crown and Coke before dinner. He had only one, and drank water with the rest of the meal. We ate our meal, payed the bill, and left. I didn't say anything about it, but it bugged me a little. I knew he was wearing a gun, and yet he had had a drink with dinner. This has raised a moral problem for me. In Texas there is no law against carry a gun in an establishment that serves alcohol, only if that establishment derives less than 51% of it's income from the sale of alcohol. There is also no real law against drinking while carrying a gun, but common sense dictates that you shouldn't. Should one drink be a problem? He was by no means drunk, but if he had had to use that gun would they of just killed him in court? Should you become defenseless if you only want to have one drink with dinner? Is really the best course of action to just not drink if you carry a gun? I am not saying yes or no one way or the other. I am simply asking yalls opinion on the matter. I am only talking about a drink here and there, or one beer here and there, I am not talking about getting sloshed at the bar while wearing a gun. We all have one or two drinks and drive home, is that any less irresponsible than wearing a gun while doing the same thing? What are your thoughts?
If it really bothers you I would simply approach him and let him know that you are looking out for his best interest and that you don't think it is a good idea for him to drink and carry (especially if he is with you). Remind him that in this day and age the good guys are made out to be bad guys and they get screwed. If he has any common sense he will see where you are coming from.
The other night and friend and I went to dinner. We both carry 100% of the time. We were sitting there talking and he ordered a Crown and Coke before dinner. He had only one, and drank water with the rest of the meal. We ate our meal, payed the bill, and left. I didn't say anything about it, but it bugged me a little. I knew he was wearing a gun, and yet he had had a drink with dinner. This has raised a moral problem for me. In Texas there is no law against carry a gun in an establishment that serves alcohol, only if that establishment derives less than 51% of it's income from the sale of alcohol. There is also no real law against drinking while carrying a gun, but common sense dictates that you shouldn't. Should one drink be a problem? He was by no means drunk, but if he had had to use that gun would they of just killed him in court? Should you become defenseless if you only want to have one drink with dinner? Is really the best course of action to just not drink if you carry a gun? I am not saying yes or no one way or the other. I am simply asking yalls opinion on the matter. I am only talking about a drink here and there, or one beer here and there, I am not talking about getting sloshed at the bar while wearing a gun. We all have one or two drinks and drive home, is that any less irresponsible than wearing a gun while doing the same thing? What are your thoughts?
decodeddiesel
06-08-09, 11:35
Hmmm...interesting dilemma.
While I certianly think that being impaired and carrying a weapon is a very very bad idea, I would think that drinking one drink while at dinner is not a big deal.
I am very sure he would be well below the legal driving limit (I don't know what it is in TX, .08 BAC?) and his judgment would not be impaired. I can understand the need to CYA in the event of using said weapon but I just don't think one drink with dinner is going to have any real effect on the ruling of a legitimate shooting. I don't know.
I can certianly see the other side of the coin. I am very sure any responding police would order a breathalyzer test, and blowing any numbers may look bad. I could see some Sotomayor'esque prosecuting attorney who is hell bent one making someone an example using that in court.
Probably not something I am going to concern myself with to the point that I won't enjoy a glass of wine with dinner.
Business_Casual
06-08-09, 11:37
Seriously? One drink? No offense, but you are an annoying busy body in my opinion.
M_P
I carry often, and often carry to dinner and/or to the bar. In PA there is no law against CC in a bar. I do not drink to get drunk, but I can often eat dinner and have 2-4 beers while carrying, my wife and I could go to the bar at the end of the street and spend a few hours and I may drink 2-4 beers and maybe a couple Jeager bombs as well.
I never thought I needed to shoot anyone because I had a couple beers :D
If there is no law against it, why does it bother you, and why do you feel it's your business or in your place to be the guiding light in this free mans life? (rhetorical question, no need to reply).
Get over it.
PS - As your comment about "if he needed to use it....", well, if I face A) getting killed by some nut job or B) defending myself and my actions in killing the nut job trying to kill me and/or other patrons of the establishment after I had consumed 3 beers...... guess what I will pick?
Make your own choices and deal with your own repercussions.
Nathan_Bell
06-08-09, 11:40
There is too much room for getting screwed by the legal system. Depending on your area you may be a-okay legally and take it up the chute in a civil suit.
Even if you would win this type of suit, you will have a boat load of money tied up in fees.
There is too much room for getting screwed by the legal system. Depending on your area you may be a-okay legally and take it up the chute in a civil suit.
Even if you would win this type of suit, you will have a boat load of money tied up in fees.
But the entire point in CC is to prevent your own death from a threat. In the actual instance that you ever pulled a concealed weapon for protection.... do you think the option of
A) death
over
B) a boat load of money tied up in fees is something that will take more than 1.5 milliseconds to decide?
When faced with being dead as an option, I do not mind whatever the cost is of being and remaining alive is.
QuietShootr
06-08-09, 11:46
Meh. MYOB, as long as he's not ****ed up drunk. It's legal for people to open carry in bars in Indiana, and we don't have a rash of drunken shootings.
Price you pay for freedom, dude.
chavez_e_chavez
06-08-09, 11:56
its not guns that shoot people, its the people...I could get totally trash and once I handle a weapon, im %100 devoted to my personal and everybody else safety around me..
Failure2Stop
06-08-09, 12:03
Carrying a firearm while consuming alcohol, regardless of intent, is stupid and immature. I will say that to anyone's face. Give me any good reason to mix lawful concealed carry with alcohol consumption. I can list a dozen reasons not to.
It is wrong.
It is stupid.
It is unnecessary.
If you have made mistakes in the past, fine, but have the moral courage to admit that it was not a good thing to do and move on.
If you want a drink, fine, but take the gun off first.
If he's your friend, you should be able to bring it up and talk it out... like friends.
The wife and I go out from time to time, no gun comes with us because of state laws, but that doesn't mean I'm unarmed, I just don't have a gun.
At home if we're drinking, it stays in the holster either on me or on the coffee table in the holster. Handling a gun while drinking probably isn't real smart, but if it's just sitting on your hip (or his in your case), bid deal. The only time I would see a problem is if he turns into Johnny Bigmouth if he drinks.
Hell, I worry more about drinking and posting on forums than spontaniously wanting to draw my gun. ;)
Nathan_Bell
06-08-09, 12:09
But the entire point in CC is to prevent your own death from a threat. In the actual instance that you ever pulled a concealed weapon for protection.... do you think the option of
A) death
over
B) a boat load of money tied up in fees is something that will take more than 1.5 milliseconds to decide?
When faced with being dead as an option, I do not mind whatever the cost is of being and remaining alive is.
Yup, I decided to get a CHL.
I have also decided not to drink in a situation that a lawyer can spin into making me pay some POS for the rest of my life. It is not a situation that you you paint. It is me deciding that I want to minimize the chances of my actions to remain alive leaving me as a wage slave to a court judgement.
Gun = no booze. Tis that simple.
Get knocked around in the legal system or even a big bureacracy once or twice and you realize that missing a great beer with dinner is not that large of a price to pay to avoid going through that shit again.
I don't see an issue with it.
Each individual needs to know what he's capable of handling. IMO, it's more acceptable to keep your gun on you and have a drink or two with dinner than it is to leave a gun in a car to be stolen by some piece of shit criminal.
mattpittinger
06-08-09, 12:14
Seriously? One drink? No offense, but you are an annoying busy body in my opinion.
M_P
I am just asking your opinion on the subject, I did not say that I had a significant problem with the man drinking while carrying. I just said that it could pose some problems.
I typically don't carry a firearm if going out for the evening and having drinks... However, in Nevada DWI is .08 while you can open or concealed carry with a BAC up to .10 and not be above the legal limit.
Carrying a firearm while consuming alcohol, regardless of intent, is stupid and immature. I will say that to anyone's face. Give me any good reason to mix lawful concealed carry with alcohol consumption. I can list a dozen reasons not to.
It is wrong.
It is stupid.
It is unnecessary.
If you have made mistakes in the past, fine, but have the moral courage to admit that it was not a good thing to do and move on.
If you want a drink, fine, but take the gun off first.
I completely respect your opinion and I will politely ignor it.
To choose to not be armed is wrong, stupid, and unnecessary.
Beer or not, there are mental midgets out there that at any moment could walk into your local bar or resturaunt (or any other place at any time of day or night) and decide to start shooting random sheep.
You honestly feel that your more resistant to maniac/insane killers because your in a bar and guns are not a wise choice there? Have at it pal.....
I'll be the guy shooting back and paying the legal fees or be found dead after trying to stop him.
You'll be the dead guy that threw your wine glass at the maniac to try and stop him or you may be found cowering under a table and wishing you had your pistol.
Honestly, I take no personal interest in what you or anyone here does.... it just amazes me that some folks put these absurd rules in place.... as if the bad guys will heed the rules and allow you safe passage to certain places....just because.
John_Wayne777
06-08-09, 12:38
For the average sized male a single drink is unlikely to measurably impair his judgment.
That being said:
Carrying a firearm while consuming alcohol, regardless of intent, is stupid and immature. I will say that to anyone's face. Give me any good reason to mix lawful concealed carry with alcohol consumption. I can list a dozen reasons not to.
It is wrong.
It is stupid.
It is unnecessary.
If you have made mistakes in the past, fine, but have the moral courage to admit that it was not a good thing to do and move on.
If you want a drink, fine, but take the gun off first.
That's some sage advice. We don't live in an ideal world. Generally I would advise people to abstain from drinking while they are armed.
My limit while carrying is one wine or beer and only with a meal and a glass of water . That's just me.
YMMV.
IMO , the entire " legal in an eating establishment but not in the bar '" thing is a real PITA. Completely useless.
wholly ****in shit... mind your own damn business- one ****in drink? are you kidding? even if it was ten drinks- mind your own business. you must be a new CCW guy.
Cardiac Nurse
06-08-09, 12:43
Carrying a firearm while consuming alcohol, regardless of intent, is stupid and immature. I will say that to anyone's face. Give me any good reason to mix lawful concealed carry with alcohol consumption. I can list a dozen reasons not to.
It is wrong.
It is stupid.
It is unnecessary.
If you have made mistakes in the past, fine, but have the moral courage to admit that it was not a good thing to do and move on.
If you want a drink, fine, but take the gun off first.
agreed...I don't have a problem with a drink now and then but please don't have your gun with you when you do it...
as a medical professional I see too many people who don't realize what one drink will do when mixed with their blood pressure meds, nerve pills etc and the thought of them having a weapon is scary even though what they are using is not illegal.
As for my opinion I say if your going to be drinking...lock the pistol in the trunk or leave it at home.
We have enough issues with the Liberal Politicians as it stands now so why give them any thing that they could use for ammo against CCW and legal Firearm ownership.
If someone touts themself as a responsible citizen then show it by not mixing firearms and alcohol.
I say this as someone who spent the better part of 10-years of my life working for a Rock Band and making my living playing music in bars, you dont see people behaving at a level of responsiblity in these places.
agreed...I don't have a problem with a drink now and then but please don't have your gun with you when you do it...
as a medical professional I see too many people who don't realize what one drink will do when mixed with their blood pressure meds, nerve pills etc and the thought of them having a weapon is scary even though what they are using is not illegal.
Ever seen what an out of control homicidal maniac shooter can do? I have not, but I know it has happened before and could happen again. The reason I carry/own weapons is because of the unknown and unexpected, otehrwise I would simply plan for "it" and remove "it" or me from the situation. I can not, so I plan to deal with "it" the best way I can.
That is exactly why I "ALWAYS" carry outside of work. If there were any way on god's earth to carry concealed at work I would, but I work at a nucler facility and our security here makes an airport look unprotected.
John_Wayne777
06-08-09, 12:50
You honestly feel that your more resistant to maniac/insane killers because your in a bar and guns are not a wise choice there? Have at it pal.....
His advice has precisely ZERO to do with whether or not a bad guy can target a bar.
I would wager his stance is based on several issues, including:
- people generally tend to exercise poor judgment while they are drinking
- a post-shooting investigation is not going to be any more pleasant when there's alcohol on your breath
- you never know what an attorney (either a DA or a plaintiff's lawyer) will do with a BA level above 0.0%
I'll be the guy shooting back and paying the legal fees or be found dead after trying to stop him.
This is not a choice of drinking while armed or dying. You can go to a restaurant or bar and NOT drink alcohol.
You'll be the dead guy that threw your wine glass at the maniac to try and stop him or you may be found cowering under a table and wishing you had your pistol.
Dude, do you have any idea what those yellow titles and the term "Subject Matter Expert" means? Hint: They don't get those for selling the most girlscout cookies.
The people who are given that title here have it because of significant experience in SF or SOF where they fought (or are currently fighting) our nation's enemies. "Cowering" ain't in their job description. Thus I would suggest that it's probably a bad idea for someone who has never been there and done that to adopt that tone when speaking to someone who HAS been there and done that and in far worse circumstances than some idiot in a bar who wants to pick a fight.
Honestly, I take no personal interest in what you or anyone here does....
You should. You damn well should. There are people on this site who have lived through the aftermath of a shooting and who have experienced the joys of a homicide investigation firsthand. There are people here who have watched the legal system screw over decent people based on stupid stuff. Ignoring the counsel and advice of such individuals is certainly your right...but that doesn't make it a good idea.
it just amazes me that some folks put these absurd rules in place.... as if the bad guys will heed the rules and allow you safe passage to certain places....just because.
Again, you entirely missed the point.
He's not telling you that bad guys don't hit bars. He's telling you that when YOU decide to go about armed, YOU have adopted a higher level of accountability and responsibility than everybody else on the planet. You don't have to like that reality, but it IS reality. Thus you should conduct yourself in a fashion consistent with the responsibility that goes along with walking about in your daily life with a lethal weapon strapped on your hip.
Being the good guy means that you are subject to more scrutiny and accountability than idiots and scumbags.
parishioner
06-08-09, 12:51
I think that if he is drinking while armed with you, then you have every right to talk to him about it if it bothers you. Its just looking out for yourself. If you are not with him and he drinks while armed, dont worry about it. He is a big boy and can make decisons for himself.
mattpittinger
06-08-09, 12:51
My limit while carrying is one wine or beer and only with a meal and a glass of water
This is kind of the conclusion that I have come to. I do not feel that one drink is going to cause any significant impairment. It may or may not cause legal issues, but it is better than the alternative.
His advice has precisely ZERO to do with whether or not a bad guy can target a bar.
I would wager his stance is based on several issues, including:
- people generally tend to exercise poor judgment while they are drinking
- a post-shooting investigation is not going to be any more pleasant when there's alcohol on your breath
- you never know what an attorney (either a DA or a plaintiff's lawyer) will do with a BA level above 0.0%
This is not a choice of drinking while armed or dying. You can go to a restaurant or bar and NOT drink alcohol.
Dude, do you have any idea what those yellow titles and the term "Subject Matter Expert" means? Hint: They don't get those for selling the most girlscout cookies.
The people who are given that title here have it because of significant experience in SF or SOF where they fought (or are currently fighting) our nation's enemies. "Cowering" ain't in their job description. Thus I would suggest that it's probably a bad idea for someone who has never been there and done that to adopt that tone when speaking to someone who HAS been there and done that and in far worse circumstances than some idiot in a bar who wants to pick a fight.
You should. You damn well should. There are people on this site who have lived through the aftermath of a shooting and who have experienced the joys of a homicide investigation firsthand. There are people here who have watched the legal system screw over decent people based on stupid stuff. Ignoring the counsel and advice of such individuals is certainly your right...but that doesn't make it a good idea.
Again, you entirely missed the point.
He's not telling you that bad guys don't hit bars. He's telling you that when YOU decide to go about armed, YOU have adopted a higher level of accountability and responsibility than everybody else on the planet. You don't have to like that reality, but it IS reality. Thus you should conduct yourself in a fashion consistent with the responsibility that goes along with walking about in your daily life with a lethal weapon strapped on your hip.
Being the good guy means that you are subject to more scrutiny and accountability than idiots and scumbags.
+1 John Wayne777
mattpittinger
06-08-09, 13:01
wholly ****in shit... mind your own damn business- one ****in drink? are you kidding? even if it was ten drinks- mind your own business. you must be a new CCW guy.
Wow that was constructive.........thanks for the input......I would like to apologize for for asking for advise on what I consider a very serious subject. Also, being responsible doesn't mean that your a nube....
I have been carrying concealed for about 20 years now. I have carried in bars hundreds of times. No one ever knew, and in all these years and all the places I have been and all the thousands of hours carrying concealed or open I have never in my life even rested a hand on the weapon. I have never pondered pulling it, never considered using it. It rides along like my CRKT knife does, it is a part of normal dress, a part of what I gather in the morning. Should I remove my knife and gun before I go in a bar for a few beers? In your opinion...I guess so. In my opinion, absolutely not.
The day you will see me ever touch my pistol will be a very bad day in the life of me. It will be the day that I am facing almost sure death. In the instance of facing sure death, I will welcome any litigation required to determine if the fact that I am still alive was a lawfull set of conditions or not. They can take my truck, take my house....but I'll still alive to hug my baby girl and they can not take that from me.
I did not intend to call you a coward, only to display the fact that when faced with a shooter in a bar and while you choose to be without a weapon.... you are very limited in what you can do. Soldier, police officer, Mall security, or civilian.... it matters not. Unarmed is all the same. What could you do? Duck and try to live, or throw what tool you do have.... your beer glass. You wont have many other options that I can see. If you are carrying, you can stand a chance at saving yourself... hence the entire concept of CC!
Citizens not Subjects...!
"I'll carry my Pistol until I find a Cop who fits in my Holster!
I like that, that is exactly what I am trying to say here.
This is kind of the conclusion that I have come to. I do not feel that one drink is going to cause any significant impairment. It may or may not cause legal issues, but it is better than the alternative.
And the rest of the story is: I have done it once since I started CCW in 1998.
It would have been very ackward to refuse under the circumstances.
HiggsBoson
06-08-09, 13:13
In your situation, I personally would probably bring it up in a casual way, making sure not to make a big deal out of it. It's not your call as long as it's legal, but you might start a discussion that can help him re-examine his behavior.
My personal rule with alcohol: When OUTside my domicile and carrying, zero alcohol. For the reasons stated here by others, particularly the legal ramifications and how it will look in court, I don't think it's wise to be under the influence AT ALL when in public and armed. When INside the house, I have a one drink limit for firearms handling and carrying.
If you're someone who is concerned about a BG coming in and shooting up the bar/restaurant while you're there, why would you want to risk being impaired by alcohol when the shooting starts?
John_Wayne777
06-08-09, 13:23
And the rest of the story is: I have done it once since I started CCW in 1998.
It would have been very ackward to refuse under the circumstances.
I'd also hasten to point out that it would be extremely awkward to have to answer more than zero when a homicide investigator asks you how many drinks you had that night.
I'd also hasten to point out that it would be extremely awkward to have to answer more than zero when a homicide investigator asks you how many drinks you had that night.
I would recommend waiting to answer any and all questions until you have a lawyer present.
I'd also hasten to point out that it would be extremely awkward to have to answer more than zero when a homicide investigator asks you how many drinks you had that night.
No doubt about it.
It's a personal risk accessment based on that specific situation , that time.
IIRC , it happened about 6 years ago. The limit of one , with water & a meal remains my fall-back position.
Ever seen what an out of control homicidal maniac shooter can do? I have not, but I know it has happened before and could happen again. The reason I carry/own weapons is because of the unknown and unexpected, otehrwise I would simply plan for "it" and remove "it" or me from the situation. I can not, so I plan to deal with "it" the best way I can.
That is exactly why I "ALWAYS" carry outside of work. If there were any way on god's earth to carry concealed at work I would, but I work at a nucler facility and our security here makes an airport look unprotected.
Using this logic as your basis for carrying while drinking....there have been many shootings in the workplace as well. So why should following guidelines and rules within the workplace keep one from carrying?
Using this logic as your basis for carrying while drinking....there have been many shootings in the workplace as well. So why should following guidelines and rules within the workplace keep one from carrying?
They shouldn't. Same goes for Church if you choose to attend. The gun goes to work, church and the bar/restaraunt!
K.L. Davis
06-08-09, 13:50
Carrying a firearm while consuming alcohol, regardless of intent, is stupid and immature. I will say that to anyone's face. Give me any good reason to mix lawful concealed carry with alcohol consumption. I can list a dozen reasons not to.
It is wrong.
It is stupid.
It is unnecessary.
If you have made mistakes in the past, fine, but have the moral courage to admit that it was not a good thing to do and move on.
If you want a drink, fine, but take the gun off first.
Roger that... some of the best "career enhancing" advise I ever got was never be in possession of a drink and a firearm... or a drink and vehicle keys.
I like a little psychedelic mushroom with dinner while carrying.:rolleyes:
It always amazes me the mental gymnastics some drinkers can perform to justify their drug of choice in any setting/situation.I have no problem with drinking(or whatever you like to do for that matter).Just leave it at home or behind closed doors.Especially if you're carrying and/or dont have a designated driver.
Substitute any similar prohibited substance for alcohol in this discussion and peoples heads would start to explode at the audacity of it.Alcohol is cool though...hey,they serve from the corner store to the ball game right?
I don't see an issue with it.
Each individual needs to know what he's capable of handling.
Well, I for one don't do it. I drink so seldom these days that one drink affects me enough to where I am not comfortable with it.
But you're right - people need to know their personal limits. I would think if you're OK to drive you're OK to carry.
I like a little psychedelic mushroom with dinner while carrying.:rolleyes:
It always amazes me the mental gymnastics some drinkers can perform to justify their drug of choice in any setting/situation.I have no problem with drinking(or whatever you like to do for that matter).Just leave it at home or behind closed doors.Especially if you're carrying and/or dont have a designated driver.
Substitute any similar prohibited substance for alcohol in this discussion and peoples heads would start to explode at the audacity of it.Alcohol is cool though...hey,they serve from the corner store to the ball game right?
You can't seriously try to make the arguement that subbing a mind altering drug in place of a cocktail is realistic. This debate is boardering on ARFtardery. :rolleyes:
Littlelebowski
06-08-09, 13:54
Lot of food for thought here. I assume everybody here has bought the insurance from the NRA that covers legal expenses for a justified shooting?
CarlosDJackal
06-08-09, 14:10
If you get into a car accident and you have the smell of alcohol in your breath, you would probably be given a breathalyzer. The results of that test WILL be made available to anyone who would end up getting involved in your case.
When (not if) a Civil Lawyer comes across the fact that you have had a drink prior to your shooting; it will not matter whether or not you were not legally impaired, how far below the legal limit yo were, or if you were not found criminally guilty or were never prosecuted for defending yourself.
In a Civil case you only need 51% of the jury to side against you to go bankrupt (just ask OJ). How many in a trial jury do you think would be: (a) Gun owners; (b) CCW holders; (c) Would understand that a small amount of alcohol in most people's system would not impair their judgment; (d) Alcoholics who would side with you just because you are one of them; or (e) Will ignore the fact that you did have a drink prior to the incident?
Is a drink really worth all that hassle? Are you really willing to risk everything you own and everything you will own all for a drink? It's not like it's a prescription drug that you cannot live without, is it?
Whether drinking alcohol while carrying is legal or not; or if it does impair your judgment is not really very relevant. The fact of the matter is in a lawsuit (just like most court cases) the person whose attorney can convince the Judge and/or Jury that they are right will win every time regardless of the facts. Why would you want to provide them with the additional ammunition to do so (no pun intended)? JM2CW.
Failure2Stop
06-08-09, 14:11
What could you do?
Have a coke and a smile.
When I go out with friends (I don't go to bars to drink alone) we don't have a designated driver. We have a designated shooter.
The guys with the guns are held to a higher standard.
What would you (or a reasonable individual) think of a cop in uniform having a beer?
What about the guy screening baggage at the airport?
What about the grunt about to step off on a patrol?
What about the guy driving your daughter to school?
What about your babysitter?
It's a problem in these cases because these people (whether they carry a gun or not) are given a certain level of responsibility, duty, whatever. They are expected to be aware of what is going on and to do the right thing.
I have spent a bit of time with some exceptional warriors. And by that I mean men whose profession revolves around fighting and winning. I have never seen any of them consume alcohol while carrying. Most of them could drink a brewery and still stomp a hole in a linebacker's chest, but not a drop if the gun was on.
When you strap that gun to your ass, you have assumed responsibility. You now possess the power to kill with a twitch of your finger, and you have the potential to either end a bad situation before it gets worse, make it worse, or arm a bad person with your weapon. People have the right to expect those that carry a tool designed to kill to act responsibly. Should someone bump you just the right way while you are drinking your beer at the bar and they see that you are carrying a firearm, their immediate thought will probably not be what a great, responsible, upstanding guy you are. It doesn't matter if you had one or ten drinks, the perception is that they saw a guy with a gun drinking in a bar. Honestly assess that and ask yourself if that is how you want to be perceived.
Beyond that, alcohol impairs physical and mental performance. Would an athlete trying to set a world record drink a beer right before the event? Do you think that it would be acceptable for the security detail for the President to be drinking while manning a counter-sniper position? Do you hold the performance of an athlete over that of your family's life? When you go out with a gun you are pretty much making the statement that you are willing to fight someone to death to protect others. Why would you want to decrease your ability and mental dexterity in that situation? Alcohol will cause you to perform at sub-optimal levels. It's not a fear of you jumping up in the middle of the bar and start shooting, it's about giving enough gravity to the cause you bandy about to actually choose to do not just the "right" thing, but the "best" thing.
Maybe it's because it's my job to win gunfights and to train other people how to do so that I know how hard it can be. Maybe you just need to trust me in saying that the lives you are carrying a firearm to protect are more important than that one beer. Are you willing to let one beer take your daughter's father away? Are you willing to let that one beer make the aftermath of a justified shooting cost you the ability to provide for your family? Are you willing to let one beer's effect on you cause you to foul your draw and get your gun taken away by the guy you needed to shoot? Are you saying that it is more important to look at the TV screen through the bottom of your bottle than to pay attention to the punks that pinged your piece and are planning to roll you in the alley?
I guess I'm just not willing to let my game slip without someone to watch my back.
Why is having that beer so important anyway? It's one ****ing beer. Nothing to gain, and so much to lose. Why? Just to flaunt your disdain with the "rules" so unfairly inflicted upon you? To make such an issue about it. . . for what?
Now, to bring this thing full circle, the OP asked if he should say something. My answer was for him, and the answer is "yes". If I think that something is wrong, I deal with the issue. Hopefully he is not as silly and defensive as some people are about this thread and will understand your point. Always reserve the option to remove yourself from a bad situation. If he can't go a meal without a drink, or a drink without a gun, he probably isn't much of a loss as friends go.
But hey, it's your call.
Charlie in Texas
06-08-09, 14:17
Having recently taken my Texas CHL renewal, the instructor spent a good bit of time on this topic.
Texas law does not set out a legal limit, such as the .08 DWI limit, to qualify consumption as it relates to CHL law. While there hasn't been a test case in the courts to set boundaries (to my knowledge), the current conservative thinking is that ANY alcohol in your system while found to be carrying concealed is too much. In the same way, you can get a DWI charge without a .08 BAC, the purpose of the .08 BAC limit with DWI is to define that automatic threshold.
Now, we can argue that the only way someone is going to know that I'm carrying is if I have to protect my life, in which case whether I'm carrying legally or illegally is the subject of a different charge, but it does open up the civil side of litigation should you need to protect yourself.
The OP mentioned it was a friend of his. In that context I might bring up the subject with a friend just to make sure he was aware of the legal issue and preach a moral soapbox, but ultimately it's his decision.
Sudden distraction! B-E-A-U-tifull!
http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp174/larry0071/Junk%20Repository/angelina-jolie-takes-aim.jpg
What was it we were talking about? I forgot!
do you guys vehemently opposed to it lock your guns in a safe that you don't have access to while drinking at home?
i don't think its the best idea to get incredibly drunk while carrying....after all, the fact that alcohol impairs judgment (and motor skills) is a well documented fact...
a beer or glass of wine with dinner? doesn't bother me so much, even though I don't do it personally (although I generally carry while at home, and will have a few beers now and then while here)
This whole crazy thread over someone having a single drink while carrying.:rolleyes:
Some of guys need to get out and enjoy life a little bit and break free from your self imposed prison. No use being free only to live in a little box afraid of every damn thing out there. $.02
John_Wayne777
06-08-09, 14:25
do you guys vehemently opposed to it lock your guns in a safe that you don't have access to while drinking at home?
I personally don't drink in my home because I just don't drink.
That being said, a situation where you are in your own house after having had a couple of beers with some steaks on the grill is not exactly the same as being out to a bar. Legally in most states you have a bit more leeway when acting in defense of your home. It's also apparent that you weren't out looking for trouble when you're at home watching Spongebob with the kids.
For Michigan, a CCW law identifies that you cannot carry, if you have drank any alcohol. When I get into that situation, the firearm gets unloaded and locked in the trunk. My choice if i want to deliberately disarm myself. We fought too hard to get the CCW and drinking while carrying, will only make a bad situation...worse.
Drinking at home is different as I wouldn't be carrying, but would still have access. It's a fine point i'll go with.
Have to agree with original poster....drinking while carrying isn't good for anyone.
do you guys vehemently opposed to it lock your guns in a safe that you don't have access to while drinking at home?
i don't think its the best idea to get incredibly drunk while carrying....after all, the fact that alcohol impairs judgment (and motor skills) is a well documented fact...
a beer or glass of wine with dinner? doesn't bother me so much, even though I don't do it personally (although I generally carry while at home, and will have a few beers now and then while here)
With all due respect:
The hole in that argument is the risk assessment.
There is more of a presumption of innocence , right from the start , if a citizen gunowner defends their home.
The whole idea is to be cleared of any wrong-doing as early in the investigation process as possible. The lawyer meter starts ticking when the defender presses the trigger.
ETA: TOS has had lots of "GOOD Shoot " and "Never convict him" threads.
TOS has threads where various people wiegh with remarks , but the concept of bankrupcy is rarely part of the discussion.
John_Wayne777
06-08-09, 14:32
With all due respect:
The lawyer meter starts ticking when the defender presses the trigger.
Bingo.
The goal here is to avoid the fight if possible. If not, to win the fight without being sent to prison or bankrupted from legal fees and/or judgments against you.
Alcohol doesn't make ANY of that easier.
decodeddiesel
06-08-09, 14:32
Have a coke and a smile.
When I go out with friends (I don't go to bars to drink alone) we don't have a designated driver. We have a designated shooter...
Wow. Damn good post! You are right F2S, it's just not worth it.
ETA: if there's one good thing I got from this thread it is more additions to my ignore list. ;)
MisterWilson
06-08-09, 14:38
.....
The beginnings of higher wisdom
;)
No offense intended
I am rather amazed that some of you come right out and flame this guy for asking what he did. It's not like he is asking if "DPMS is better than Colt".
Personally I think you're an idiot if you go out in public carrying concealed and then consume alocohol. Regardless of whether or not you were intoxicated it's pretty easy to see the newspaper headline (the same newspaper that might be read by potential jurors. The media screws up the facts all the time. Do you think they are going to that headline straight?
For Michigan, a CCW law identifies that you cannot carry, if you have drank any alcohol. When I get into that situation, the firearm gets unloaded and locked in the trunk. My choice if i want to deliberately disarm myself. We fought too hard to get the CCW and drinking while carrying, will only make a bad situation...worse.
Drinking at home is different as I wouldn't be carrying, but would still have access. It's a fine point i'll go with.
Have to agree with original poster....drinking while carrying isn't good for anyone.
This is the case in Tenn also. During the recent ruckus about the new law allowing CC in venues that serve alcohol, saner heads pointed out that any use of alcohol, by anyone, LEO CHL or criminal, while carrying was already illegal. Thus the new law was not permission to drink while carrying.
You can't seriously try to make the arguement that subbing a mind altering drug in place of a cocktail is realistic. This debate is boardering on ARFtardery. :rolleyes:
It may have been a bit extreme to make a rhetorical point(i wouldnt know as i havent tried "shrooms")...But the point still stands.Alcohol is one of the most insidious intoxicants legal or otherwise(i have drank on occasion).The fact that it's socially acceptable among many seems to cloud that fact.
...We all know alcohol isnt "mind altering".:rolleyes:
Many here arent talking about "a cocktail" or "a beer" either.
I don't drink when I carry. I carry all the time. Therefor, I don't drink.
Nothing to do with self control, just concerned of potential fallout if the situation went bad. Might be an ignorant fear but, erring on the side of caution makes me feel all tingly. :cool:
If you drink then don't drive and if you carry then don't drink. Simple steps. :)
I don't drink when I'm out and if I drink at home my CCW weapon is in the safe. My wife still has access to her gun should the need a rise.
.
RogerinTPA
06-08-09, 15:51
When carrying concealed, I'm probably the most law bidding person you've ever met. I do not drink, speed or anything that could be construed as unlawful behavior.
When me and my lady go out, I'm the designated driver and shooter, therefore, I do not drink when we have a night on the town. That's just me.
As for as the OP is concerned, one drink with a meal, I have no issue, but, if it is a moral dilemma for you, and this guy truly is your friend, you have the right to speak up. If he is of sound mind, he will respect what you have to say. If he cop's an attitude and gets defensive about it, then I would think twice about sharing a meal with him in anything but a fast food (Non-alcohol serving) restaurant. If a situation went sideways, I wouldn't want to share the legal burden of explaining in court as to why I didn't voice a concern when my friend had a drink while carrying concealed.
It would seem a bit harsh to say that someone can have one or two beers and drive home under the legal limit, but they can not carry a licensed firearm to protect themselves while doing so.
Sure something could happen and the innocent could be portrayed as guilty, but do we live our lives as though an unjustifiable shooting is immanent when we go out for a drink? Are we on duty or at work where are held to a higher standard? What about if someone wearing all black runs out recklessly in front of your car on the way home? How will that under the limit alcohol factor in to that situation in which you are completely otherwise innocent? Not good, but does that make the driver wrong?
Could he (or in this case maybe you or I) become obliged to spend a fortune defending something that really should not require such? Absolutely, but does the law not allow one to consume alcohol and drive as long as they are not impaired?
Seems a bit much, but that's just my opinion. I live in NJ where only a select few need worry about this anyway.
Littlelebowski
06-08-09, 17:40
I have a compromise of my own. Unload and give the mag to the wife to put in her purse. I generally don't find myself in bars but there are certain social situations where this worked fine.
To the OP,
If this individual is a friend, I don't see anything wrong with you expressing a genuine concern. My friends watch my back and I watch theirs. Just remember that he ultimately has the right to decide whether to heed your advice or ignore it.
EzGoingKev
06-08-09, 20:04
I don't drink all that much these days, usually I will grab a beer or two at a friends house or if I am out to eat. I was at a friends house once and had one beer while carrying. I don't see anything wrong with having one drink, but I do recognize the fact that it could screw me if something happened. 99.9% of the time I would just drink a soda.
To the members that have posted about how defending their lives was the first priority didn't think of all possible scenarios. If you killed only the assailants the alcohol use could bite you BUT if you hit one innocent bystander you are ****ed.
Folks, let's not give the OP a hard time. I think it's a relevant question that many of us have asked ourselves at some point.
I will typically only have one drink if I go out to dinner with the wife and/or friends when I’m not carrying so I’m not a big drinker to begin with. However when I go out and I’m carrying I won’t drink, not even one. That’s just me.
EvilSpeculator556
06-08-09, 20:54
I wouldn't drink anymore than I would if I had to drive a car. Which means I would never have more than one beer. Hard liquor would be out of the equation.
ljlinson1206
06-08-09, 22:24
Each person has thier own opinion about this issue, as is clear by the number of replys. Me personaly, I was always tought that guns and alcohol do NOT mix. I teach this philosophy to my children. I also don't think we need to "bash" anyone for thier views on this subject. Come on guys, we're all adults. If you think that you can stand before a court of law and defend your decision and explain why you thought it was a good idea to carry a gun while drinking, then by all means live by it. Anyway.....that's my 2 cents
After one week in law school, I never got behind the wheel of a car or carried a firearm within a few hours of having any alcohol whatsoever.
There is just far too much data out there to suggest that even one drink has some impact on judgment, and far too many cases where even a tiny question of judgment has led to people losing their fortunes in court.
YMMV.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-08-09, 22:54
So gangbangers get to shoot up the town high on cocaine, crack, meth and PCP, but I can't have an 18 year old Highland Park Scotch! Damn this cruel world!
I don't think you have to 'confront' him. I'd just say "Wow, I never would think to have a drink when I'm carrying...."
Gutshot John
06-08-09, 23:06
CCW and having even one drink is a line that I chose to stay well on the side of legality.
I'm curious about a line is when the law says you can't carry in a place where alcohol is served but you chose not to drink at all.
OldNavyGuy
06-08-09, 23:46
matt, Ladies and Gentelmen, i did not read any of your replies as i just want to give matt my personal thoughts with out the bias of the responders..,
...but it bugged me a little. (i envision a little red flag popping up..., in my mind, why should you be bugged ? are you so righteous and pure that you let a little thing like that be an issue with a friend.., personally i would praise and complement him if he were my friend for his constraint. OK ?)
...This has raised a moral problem for me.
why should it ? are you the second messiah behind Hussein O. ? you say that he broke no laws, if your moral standard is set that high, maybe you should question your own carrying of a piece, come off your high horse and drop it like a hot just fired cartridge case, keep quiet about the event and NEVER bring it up.., friends are too valuable to throw on the trash truck because of your high moral standards
Well, it looks like alcohol is far, far above even the venerable 1911 on the scale of sacred cows that shall not be poked.
Any pilots will have had drilled into them, "Twelve hours from bottle to throttle." I don't have a catchy rhyme for drinking and carrying but I apply the same rule to my CCW. They don't tell pilots "Twelve hours from bottle to throttle, except for a beer or two with dinner." No booze of any kind for twelve hours, that's it.
Makes sure you're good and sharp should the need arise. If I ever need my gun I don't want there to be the slightest dulling of my reflexes. Just having a gun doesn't mean you can defend yourself if you fumble in its use at the critical moment. Plus, should your aim be the slightest bit affected there are sure to be plenty of background innocents to be hit.
ljlinson1206
06-09-09, 00:40
Would you want your local LEO showing up to a call at your house after he had drank one or two with dinner?????? Me thinks not!!!!!!
exkc135driver
06-09-09, 00:49
I guess I’m missing part of the point here. I have no problem carrying where alcohol is served (assuming that it’s legal in that jurisdiction), but I also don’t have to drink alcohol to enjoy myself in a bar or restaurant (or at a friend’s house). If you can’t go to a bar or restaurant with friends and enjoy yourself while drinking something nonalcoholic … maybe you have a little problem.
I believe that one beer/drink will make little difference in my reaction time and judgment, whether driving or shooting, but my personal rule is: when I’m driving I don’t drink at all, and ditto when I’m carrying. It would “probably” be OK, but if I want to gamble, I’ll go to Las Vegas.
Then again, I don’t drink much anyway.
Well, it looks like alcohol is far, far above even the venerable 1911 on the scale of sacred cows that shall not be poked.
Exactly what I was thinking.
Friends should be able to talk about anything. If they are truely friends.
Collegefour
06-09-09, 03:56
Interesting. I can see both sides of this issue, but I lean towards those who preach no drinking while carrying, because the legal system is all jacked up.
Just for further consideration, one drink (12 oz beer, glass of wine, shot of alcohol) is roughly equal to a BAC of .02 . Most people do not exhibit signs of visible intoxication at this BAC, so it is unlikely that it will come up right off the bat. However, if the venue that the shoot takes place in is a bar, it WILL come up. That said, if you politely refuse a PBT (which is your right), it will be difficult for any prosecutor to prove you were drinking, assuming you are willing to lie about it. Furthermore, if a homicide investigator asks you to take an intoxilyzer test, by the time the test actually takes place, you will probably blow 0.000, since there is a mandatory 20 minute waiting (for observation) period. That, combined with how long it will take to clear the scene and transport you to the PD should put you at zero's, since most people metabolize alcohol at .02 per hour. You could also refuse to answer questions until you have a lawyer present, and the implied consent law only applies to DUI, so you could flat out refuse to take the intoxilyzer test, too. That might look bad later, but not as bad as blowing anything over 0.000 .
This also assumes that the shooting takes place just as you finish your beer. For those of you thinking ahead, having one drink with dinner only creates a small one-hour window where if something were to happen, it might become an issue.
I guess that was a long winded way of saying that the chances of an incident occurring right when you finish your drink are small, and that there is a good chance that you would get away with it. However, just the fact that I used the phrase "get away with it" implies doing something wrong. Risk management arguments aside, I have decided that alcohol and firearms don't mix.
Nathan_Bell
06-09-09, 06:29
After one week in law school, I never got behind the wheel of a car or carried a firearm within a few hours of having any alcohol whatsoever.
There is just far too much data out there to suggest that even one drink has some impact on judgment, and far too many cases where even a tiny question of judgment has led to people losing their fortunes in court.
YMMV.
Was this when they first revealed that you could find an "expert" witness to testify to damned near anything?
I think it is a personal preference as long as you are within the law of your particular state, i personally would not carry and have a drink. In Louisiana you can get a DWI for 0.08 BAC and per the law for Concealed carry and permit issues you are considered to be under the influence at 0.05 and your permit will be suspended if you are caught. If i had to use lethal force on someone i wouldn't want to have any alcohol in my body just to cover my A$$ that much more.
matt, Ladies and Gentelmen, i did not read any of your replies as i just want to give matt my personal thoughts with out the bias of the responders..,
why should it ? are you the second messiah behind Hussein O. ? you say that he broke no laws, if your moral standard is set that high, maybe you should question your own carrying of a piece, come off your high horse and drop it like a hot just fired cartridge case, keep quiet about the event and NEVER bring it up.., friends are too valuable to throw on the trash truck because of your high moral standards
Any "friend" who would consider it being 'thrown on the trash truck' if you were to diplomatically start a dialogue on drinking while carrying, ain't really a friend.
HiggsBoson
06-09-09, 08:28
I guess that was a long winded way of saying that the chances of an incident occurring right when you finish your drink are small, and that there is a good chance that you would get away with it.
This has crossed my mind a time or three. I think it's likely the prosecution would find out by asking anyone who was there with you (and unwilling to perjure themselves), asking the wait-staff and/or barkeep, interviewing other patrons who were in the establishment at the time, or just looking at your bill. And then you will have lied to the police about a shooting. Probably not the wisest position to put yourself in. If you're going to not admit to drinking, I wonder if you might not be better off just invoking the 5th amendment.
People tend to forget that one's reaction to alcohol can change quite a bit as factors we don't consider come into play. Plenty of people (myself included) have had a significant change in how "one drink" affects us because of illness, stress, recent strenuous activity, etc. So, that "one drink" which doesn't phase a person on one occasion may affect them adversely the next. It may not even be significant enough for the person to fully be aware of.
As for drinking after one drink versus carrying after one drink, there is one major difference. If you realize one drink has affected you, you can hand your keys to a friend, get a cab, etc. What do you do with your firearm? Ask the bartender to hold it.
This has crossed my mind a time or three. I think it's likely the prosecution would find out by asking anyone who was there with you (and unwilling to perjure themselves), asking the wait-staff and/or barkeep, interviewing other patrons who were in the establishment at the time, or just looking at your bill. And then you will have lied to the police about a shooting. Probably not the wisest position to put yourself in. If you're going to not admit to drinking, I wonder if you might not be better off just invoking the 5th amendment.
If you got into a defensive situation, taking the 5th would not really be an option as self-defense is an affirmative defense. You have to establish the subjective element, and only your statement can do that.
CarlosDJackal
06-09-09, 08:43
Sudden distraction! B-E-A-U-tifull!
http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp174/larry0071/Junk%20Repository/angelina-jolie-takes-aim.jpg
What was it we were talking about? I forgot!
Notice that they put the caps on the wrong ends? :D
Notice that they put the caps on the wrong ends? :D
WTF are you talking about? She is not wearing a cap! Look at her eyes! Her smooth as silk skin! The curve of her neck! I can't see anything but that! :D
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-09-09, 09:16
If you got into a defensive situation, taking the 5th would not really be an option as self-defense is an affirmative defense. You have to establish the subjective element, and only your statement can do that.
I think there is a difference between keeping your pie-hole closed till you can talk to your lawyer and pulling an Ollie North in front of twelve people unable to get out of jury duty and annoyed you are 'wasting' their time.
You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride.
You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride.
Now this is a well spoken summary.
I think there is a difference between keeping your pie-hole closed till you can talk to your lawyer and pulling an Ollie North in front of twelve people unable to get out of jury duty and annoyed you are 'wasting' their time.
You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride.
Given the context of asserting the 5th, I assumed this was in reference to a court proceeding. When dealing with questions from an investigator, all you need to say is ask for your attorney and then shut up. Getting into one's constitutional protections would seem a waste of time.
Of course, this gets back to the poster's point. If you are going to talk at any point in the context of a shooting post-drink, you will either have to admit to drinking and argue it had no effect on the situation, or plan on perjury and greatly increase your chances of going down for what otherwise would have been a legitimate shoot.
CarlosDJackal
06-09-09, 10:39
This has crossed my mind a time or three. I think it's likely the prosecution would find out by asking anyone who was there with you (and unwilling to perjure themselves), asking the wait-staff and/or barkeep, interviewing other patrons who were in the establishment at the time, or just looking at your bill. And then you will have lied to the police about a shooting. Probably not the wisest position to put yourself in. If you're going to not admit to drinking, I wonder if you might not be better off just invoking the 5th amendment.
After such incident, it is normal to document any instance of alcoholic consumption by all who might be involved. When someone gets into an accident and is interviewed by the responding Traffic Officer, it is normal to note if there is any indication if the driver may have had a drink (ie: breath, bloodshot eyes, slurring speech, open alcohol containers, in the vehicle, smell of alcohol, etc.). Just because you don't admit to having a drink, it doesn't mean that any indication that supports that fact will not be noted and documented. If an Investigator thinks that you may have had a drink (ie: due to your breath) do you not think that they will not have you do a Breathalyzer test? And if you refused, do you think that it might reflect poorly for your case?
In aviation, any incident that required an emergency landing or resulted in a crash, whether or not the individual(s) on the controls had a single drink is documented. I suspect that it is the same for any commercial vehicle or vessel accident. It does not matter who was at fault, it is something that is noted because this will be brought into question during any follow-on investigation and the trial.
I once had to pick up a Soldier and her children from her home (off-base) because her then-husband was being abusing and threatening to call Social Services to take her children (not his own) away. The first place I took them was the Post Provost Marshal (MPs) where I requested the desk Sergeant to give her a Breathalyzer exam. I did this not to get her in trouble, but to help her case. Basically, I took away her husband's ability to insist that she was drunk that morning. And even if he did sign a complaint stating that she had a drink that morning, we had the evidence to the contrary which could weaken his case. It may not be much, but it was better than nothing.
Just because it may be legal or you may be under some legal limit does not protect you from criminal prosecution or other types of litigation. And that is when the fact that you only had "one drink" prior to the incident will be brought into evidence and will be leveraged to skew the facts.
Again I have to ask, is it really worth it? YMMV.
parishioner
06-09-09, 10:44
Notice that they put the caps on the wrong ends? :D
I think the bolt is locked back too. :p
I agree with those who say when you carry outside the home, you have assumed more responsibility than others and therefore you should act more responsible. Firearms are inherently dangerous and adding alcohol to the equation increases risk. We all know that crazy things happen in life and people end up in the most unfortunate situations. Because of this, I think it is wise to decrease your chances of being caught in one of these situations, since you have the power to, by choosing not to drink when carrying.
Momma always said if you don't play with fire, you won't get burned.
I don't drink, at all, in any quantity. Unless you'd count communion on Sunday. Further, I avoid businesses that that are primarily alcohol establishments like the plague.
It's served me well. I'm not accosted by other bad-mannered patrons. I can carry as I wish and drive myself home without emcumbrence. In the event of a MVA or a use of force, alcohol will not complicate my predicament. And of my various personality quirks, no one will ever point out an an alcohol-related observation.
I accept that others might prefer a practice of moderation. When in their company and compelled to decline an offer of a alcoholic beverage I do explain why but I don't beat them with it. I'm not a prohibitionist or a bible-thumper. I have declined to attend many gatherings because I knew what would transpire with those less prone to moderation, and I didn't wish to be associated with it.
I have proposed policy that would prohibit an MOS from carrying any credential or departmentally owned piece of equipment for a period of time after drinking any quantity of alcohol. Best summarized as: You drink, you're on your own.
I have been around some noteworthy folks, names you'd recognize, who did not have nearly as much control of their alcohol (or their mouths) as their trigger on the line. Despite what they put in print and preach at conferences.
My .02.
Just my experiences and PERSONAL OPINION. I have a friend who carries and I take classes with and he has a drinking concern. I have "caught" him drinking while carrying and I politely called him on it. What was my issue? Well, we all know that drinking impairs mental acuity. WHY would you wish to have "you were mentally impaired" (as stated by the prosecuting attorney) belabored on an already non-shooting jury? And it will be. I just wouldn't. At a best it will cost you more for your attorney to defend you and at worst you lose the Civil trial.
In Michigan one can go into any establishment that makes 51% of it's profits on foodstuff. So I don't allow anyone drinking at our table. Why? Because we know people's memories aren't perfect and they may have had a drink and I'd not want persons stating that "they were drinking at the table" and it becomes misconstrued that *I* was drinking at the table. Yes, I know the Blood Alcohol Testing can establish otherwise but stranger things have happened to evidence in court cases such as suppression of evidence.
I ALWAYS assume the "goblin" you shoot will be related to the Mayor and Prosecuting Attorney. And if you don't think evidence can be tampered with just pay close attention to the goings on in our (supposedly) Legal System.
It's bad enough that you/I just shot the Mayors fiending little cousin "Ray Ray", "Booger", "Bubba" or "Junebug" who miraculously had an epiphany "to do the Lord's work" the night before he donned his ski mask and commenced to assaulting you, but you strangely become "drunk" or "having a few drinks" to "impaired" in the newspaper. If you think this cannot happen go google "Detroit Mayor Kilpatrick" or "New Orleans, Corruption". I was in the Metro Area at the time and some of the details were more appalling than the national media portrayed.
Be safe, brothers.
P.S.
I don't drink at all and I don't habituate in places that serve alcohol.
No. In my opinion, guns and alcohol are not a good combination.
HiggsBoson
06-09-09, 11:08
Just because it may be legal or you may be under some legal limit does not protect you from criminal prosecution or other types of litigation. And that is when the fact that you only had "one drink" prior to the incident will be brought into evidence and will be leveraged to skew the facts.
Again I have to ask, is it really worth it? YMMV.
It's great to hear your input, and it only serves to cement my aversion to mixing alcohol and firearms. I have mainly pondered this because I see it basically like you describe it: it's a lose/lose situation.
This thread has made me wonder if I should just have a "zero drinks in public" policy (firearms or not). Unfortunately, this is currently a moot point for me in my home state of Virginia where only open carry is allowed in establishments where alcohol is served; that's a whole other issue though.
exkc135driver
06-09-09, 12:06
I ALWAYS assume the "goblin" you shoot will be related to the Mayor and Prosecuting Attorney.
Not to hijack this thread, but that is a very good point. There are many examples of rich/famous/powerful people who may be fine folks, but whose sons/daughters are violent, dangerous, and amoral.
There is NOreason to drink alcohol in any-form and carry a concealed weapon(including taking prescription drugs). You have a responsibility to be fully sober if the need arises to use your weapon. Doing otherwise is foolish and just plain reckless!!
geminidglocker
06-09-09, 12:41
I'll carry around the yard when doing the garening and other lawn care duties, whilst drinkin' a beer or two. If i leave my property then i only carry sober. There are no real laws so to speak of here in Vermont in regards to concealed carry.:rolleyes:As always, it's a common sense issue. Im not inebriated by one drink myself, so yes, one with a meal and water, I'de say let it slide.
geminidglocker
06-09-09, 12:43
Notice that they put the caps on the wrong ends? :D
Her scope cover is in the way of her charging handle.
I have a concelaed carry permit and I RARELY drink period. With that said, if I were going to a Bar, I would leave my pistol in the truck and go about my business. Here in New Mexico I beleive the laws are very similar to Texas. The rule in my book is you dont carry a weapon into a place that serves alcohol, it really is that simple. I think your friend is being a bit foolish and irresponsible by taking any chances even though it is ONE drink.
I do believe I am the only admitting moderate drinker here. Wow, I never would have guessed. I'm not a drunk, but at least 3 nights a week I will go out for dinner and a few beers. Weekends can find me having a beer by 9AM if it's hot out. About 1 time every 2 years I get puke drunk... just to remind myself why I drink slow and steady and not fast and crazy any more. No more poking a hole in the bottom of a beer and cracking the top and pouring a beer into my stomach at a rate of 1 every 5 min. That stuff will kill ya!
You are all very good men. I aspire to one day modify my ways and refrain from drinking. It will likely be when I am 85 years old eating purified food mixed with water and thickener while I lay waiting to die.
Honestly, I do comend many of you for having the desire and the willpower to enforce your code upon yourself. There are still extraordinary gentlemen in the world today.
Nathan_Bell
06-09-09, 13:07
A question for the LE's who may peruse this thread. How often do you believe the guy who says he had "a drink" when they are in the middle of some shit-storm? Which a CHL shooting a BG should qualify as.
IF you are like the LE I know, about 1 in 50.
Nathan,
When I was a reserve officer and we responded to any incident (domestic, general disturbance, DUI, etc..) if you were drinking you were automatically looked at with suspicion. Especially if there was some sort of fight or altercation and one side had been drinking and the other not. Some people think it's no big deal but we live in the most litigious society that there is and all it may take is one drink to cause a shit storm. And let's not forget that in a civil suit the prepoderance of evidence is not the same is in a criminal case so if the other side can sway the jury into believing that Mr. John Q. Rambo was drinking and therefore impaired when he shot John T. Douchebag you're probably screwed.
A question for the LE's who may peruse this thread. How often do you believe the guy who says he had "a drink" when they are in the middle of some shit-storm? Which a CHL shooting a BG should qualify as.
IF you are like the LE I know, about 1 in 50.
Honestly, I do comend many of you for having the desire and the willpower to enforce your code upon yourself. There are still extraordinary gentlemen in the world today.
Do what I did... Have an honest conversation with yourself about why you drink. Most folks do it for peer-association or simply out of habit. Compile a list of reasons to drink, and then to not. It's an easy decision. There are connoisseurs that like wine, beers, and liquors. They drink in pursuit of that interest. Few folks fit the description, despite what they tell themselves.
Heck, I've nearly quit drinking pop altogether, just because there was no good reason to do it, and a bunch not to.
A question for the LE's who may peruse this thread. How often do you believe the guy who says he had "a drink" when they are in the middle of some shit-storm? Which a CHL shooting a BG should qualify as. IF you are like the LE I know, about 1 in 50.
When asking about any quantity of consumption, alcohol or drug, I presume that the subject will lie. I quit asking "if" they've been drinking/smoking/pill popping long ago, and now just skip ahead to how much or last consumption.
Threads like this are always interesting. Most folks calmly stating that no, I don't drink when I'm carrying. You get a few who calmly state that yeah, sometimes I have a drink when I'm carrying. And you get a handful of folks who come unglued and start shouting that they can damn well drink as much as they want and frak you for asking!
I think the last group is motivated by two factors:
In our culture, drinking is often still associated with being cool, being strong, etc. There were certainly times in my life when I was more than proud to tell people I drank a case of beer by myself one night. As Skintop pointed out, most people who fall into this category are drinking at least in part due to peer association.
When the majority of the people responding to the post say, "No, I think drinking while carrying is irresponsible," it is essentially calling those other people irresponsible gun owners. Some people will respond by re-assessing their priorities and possibly changing their habits. But others will just get pissed off that you called them irresponsible.
I have friends who will have a drink or two while carrying, and I have friends who will not. I've stopped wasting my time discussing it with those who think drinking + carrying is ok. But I don't tend to hang out with them nearly as much, especially if we might be going somewhere that serves alcohol ...
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-09-09, 16:37
Sheepdogs need beer too....
While I don't doubt that some people who carry may have a drinky problem, CCW holders on the whole and especially from this site, I think, are going to be more sober, in the literal and figurative meanings, that the general population. Perhaps some of the difference of opinion comes from people's mindset. If you come from the mindset that you are 'on duty' everytime you go out the door CCW, drinking sounds like a crazy idea. If CCW is a something you do to make sure that you are prepared if anything goes wrong while you are living your life, then a drink or two make sounds reasonable. I'm definately in the first camp. Like the Southwest Airlines CEO says in the commercial "It's ON!"
Do what I did... Have an honest conversation with yourself about why you drink. Most folks do it for peer-association or simply out of habit.
Peer pressure? As an adult? How about when it's due to either massive stress or past traumas...or both? Not so easy then. And no, this is not a third person point of view.
Still, as stated by Larry0071 earlier, I also admire some of the high standards set here by those that carry. Even though I said I think one drink is ok, I must respect the discipline and sharp thinking on display here.
threebanger
06-09-09, 16:57
....and now for something completely different. Seriously though, I didn't realize how many Mall Ninjas we had on this board until I read some of these replyshttp://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k73/JohnWagnerIII/InternetCommando.jpg?t=1244583334
As a firearms instructor, I don't care how many drinks it is. I catch one of my guys doing something as asinine as mixing alcohol & firearms their ass is grass. With a CCW comes maturity & responsibility. IT should be looked at as a privilege not a goddamn ****ing right. The 'it's my right' is the same commi-pinko mentality that has gotten this country into the ****ing toilet it now sits.
All you people bitching about the author even starting this thread do us all a favor & grow the F up...or sell all your guns & give up procreation. please.
*rant off*
In response to the intelligent reply's in this thread. I do see both sides of the story I just don't agree w/alcohol & guns period. It's to much of a liability to risk because even just one drink could be the catalyst to your downfall if you had to pull the trigger. There are lots of people out there who don't like guns or those who carry guns & the best way to avoid the situation is to just make sure it never happens.
Wanna drink? simple. plan accordingly. You don't drink and drive (well smart people don't anyways) do you?
[QUOTE=Failure2Stop;385055]
The guys with the guns are held to a higher standard.
QUOTE]
Exactly. To the OP I would give the same advice as most of these guys, talk to him and if he has his head in the right place then you shouldn't have a problem.
Peer pressure? As an adult?
Yes, it's alive and well in all age groups.
How about when it's due to either massive stress or past traumas...or both? Not so easy then. And no, this is not a third person point of view.
No, those who self-medicate with alcohol will indeed have a harder time.
IT should be looked at as a privilege not a goddamn ****ing right.
I'll refrain from making personal, slanderous remarks but my head is swimming with them... ever hear of the Constitution? Try reading a history book.
Seriously though, I didn't realize how many Mall Ninjas we had on this board until I read some of these replys.
All you people bitching about the author even starting this thread do us all a favor & grow the F up...or sell all your guns & give up procreation. please.
Mall Ninja's? Bitching people? Really? :rolleyes:
This has been an extremely well conducted and informative debate for the most part. Your comments are completely unnecessary.
With a CCW comes maturity & responsibility. IT should be looked at as a privilege not a goddamn ****ing right. The 'it's my right' is the same commi-pinko mentality that has gotten this country into the ****ing toilet it now sits.
Asserting constitutionally protected rights as such and not as privileges is a "commi-pinko mentality that has gotten this country into the ****ing toilet it now sits"? Hmm...
How about when it's due to either massive stress or past traumas...or both?
Sorry, but that is the last person who should be within reach of a gun while using alcohol. There's a word for people who habitually use alcohol to medicate themselves in response to stress. It ends with "-holic."
Sorry, but that is the last person who should be within reach of a gun while using alcohol. There's a word for people who habitually use alcohol to medicate themselves in response to stress. It ends with "-holic."
I did not say I would advocate such an individual carrying a gun while drinking, though I do understand your comment. It was more a general statement.
threebanger
06-09-09, 17:25
Mall Ninja's? Bitching people? Really? :rolleyes:
This has been an extremely well conducted and informative debate for the most part. Your comments are completely unnecessary.
Safetyhit- you are correct. My comments were unnecessary & for that I apologize. I just can't believe that that many people would attack the author outright for his initial thread.
Seriously? One drink? No offense, but you are an annoying busy body in my opinion.
M_P
wholly ****in shit... mind your own damn business- one ****in drink? are you kidding? even if it was ten drinks- mind your own business. you must be a new CCW guy.
This whole crazy thread over someone having a single drink while carrying.:rolleyes:
Some of guys need to get out and enjoy life a little bit and break free from your self imposed prison. No use being free only to live in a little box afraid of every damn thing out there. $.02
I think that one drink at dinner is fine. But much more than that or that without dinner is risking too much. Just my opinion
Safetyhit- you are correct. My comments were unnecessary & for that I apologize. I just can't believe that that many people would attack the author outright for his initial thread.
I am just trying to keep the thread from getting tanked. Thanks for understanding.
You quoted posts are what you were referring to I already suspected, but that was just 3 (think you missed one, actually) of many. Most of this debate has been exemplary.
threebanger
06-09-09, 17:46
Asserting constitutionally protected rights as such and not as privileges is a "commi-pinko mentality that has gotten this country into the ****ing toilet it now sits"? Hmm...
not to get to far off topic but-
nothing to really Hmm.. about IMHO. To many people take way too much for granted in this day and age. Most to the point where they expect it because it's 'their right'.
It's 'their right' to be able to burn the flag.
It's 'their right' to not have to say the Pledge of Allegiance in school.
It's 'thier right' to force gun control on us even though we don't force guns on them.
It's 'thier right' to have a same sex marriage even if the people voted against it.
I could go on & on
What happened to 'what can I do for you'? Instead of 'what can you do for me'?.
PS -I don't think the 2nd Amendment has provisions in it for CCWs unless I am mistaken. "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." is what it reads. Nothing about carrying a concealed weapon as a 'right'.
What happened to 'what can I do for you'? Instead of 'what can you do for me'?.
No doubt you are coming from the right place overall.
No hard feelings, my good man. :cool:
I think that one drink at dinner is fine. But much more than that or that without dinner is risking too much. Just my opinion
I understand you. However, if later that night my/your judgement was to shoot someone in self-defense for breaking and entering you/I'd probably not have been charged with murder but the Civil suit that would surely follow could have been interesting as the other attorney would bring up the "impaired judgement due to the alcohol" and how his client had "made a mistake", etc. You/I would have to spend an extra month of attorney's fees to be prepared to defend that. With no guarantee we'd lose the case.
My concern is being dragged by a politically-motivated prosecuting attorney, in front of a biased jury, an arrogant, disinterested judge and a self-imposed ignorant public.
I don't like the potential punishment if "the stars align"
threebanger
06-09-09, 18:02
No doubt you are coming from the right place overall.
No hard feelings, my good man. :cool:
Thank you good sir. My emotions due run quite high @ times. IE- insert foot into mouth happens from time to time.
Can we please keep the Second Amendment debate out of this thread? There are a hundred other places on this site to argue about this same thing over and over again. Let's not drag this otherwise intelligent thread into yet another gun-control debate.
not to get to far off topic but-
PS -I don't think the 2nd Amendment has provisions in it for CCWs unless I am mistaken. "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." is what it reads. Nothing about carrying a concealed weapon as a 'right'.
But what good is a Militia if it's not armed and ready? It was illegal and punishable to attend church without your musket in the colonies.
SORRY ABOUT THAT>>>
threebanger
06-09-09, 18:06
I'll refrain from making personal, slanderous remarks but my head is swimming with them... ever hear of the Constitution? Try reading a history book.
yup, done that. see above.
Has anyone ever been sued or prosecuted for an otherwise good shoot just because they had a drink or two?
threebanger
06-09-09, 18:07
Can we please keep the Second Amendment debate out of this thread? There are a hundred other places on this site to argue about this same thing over and over again. Let's not drag this otherwise intelligent thread into yet another gun-control debate.
roger that.
Has anyone ever been sued or prosecuted for an otherwise good shoot just because they had a drink or two?
Not to my knowledge but I'm sure he/she paid dearly to his attorney to cover their arse if they had been drinking and their was some doubt about the shooting situation.
Anyone?
How would we know?
An otherwise "good shoot" could have easily been portrayed as something else in large part because of the involvement of alcohol.
How else could charges be justified?
As for civil action...I would guess that happens alot regardless of how justified the shooting was.I doubt alcohol would help your case though.
People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." is what it reads. Nothing about carrying a concealed weapon as a 'right'.
I would argue that that is the section that might cover it. It does not tell you in what way, form, or fashion to bear arms. So could it not be a logical conclusion that "concealed " is still bearing arms?
Who knows since there is no central database for self defense shootings. I know I wouldn't want to find out. Again it's just plain stupid and irresponsible.
Has anyone ever been sued or prosecuted for an otherwise good shoot just because they had a drink or two?
.http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k73/JohnWagnerIII/InternetCommando.jpg?t=1244583334
One of the funniest things I have seen in a while:D
EvilSpeculator556
06-09-09, 19:55
Don't worry! I work for the government. :eek::D
CryingWolf
06-09-09, 20:54
IT should be looked at as a privilege not a goddamn ****ing right
I'll refrain from making personal, slanderous remarks but my head is swimming with them... ever hear of the Constitution? Try reading a history book.
+1
I know better then to read these heated arguments.
CryingWolf
06-09-09, 21:01
There is NOreason to drink alcohol in any-form and carry a concealed weapon(including taking prescription drugs). You have a responsibility to be fully sober if the need arises to use your weapon. Doing otherwise is foolish and just plain reckless!!
including taking prescription drugs
???
Does this mean say high blood pressure medicine or meds to help against acid reflux?
Since when does someone who takes prescription drugs not have the right to protect themselves?
+1
I know better then to read these heated arguments.
This, for the most part, is not a heated argument. It is a largely constructive discussion with some negative input. Might as well keep things in perspective.
A bit late to thread, but I'd like to throw in some food for thought.
I've been impaired by long hours/ sleep deprivation - to a point of nearly falling asleep behind the wheel - too numerous times to remember.
Multiple medications, consumed by half of this country population, have sedative/CNS effects.
The discussion of alcohol/concealed carry comes up regularly on various boards, and general response is similar what we got here - most people criticize it on account of lack of common sense and/or responsibility. However, when I throw out one of above scenarios, I get no responses.
So, for those who criticize consuming and carrying by reason of potential alcohol-induced impairment (whatever the consumed amount might be): would you then agree that a person shouldn't carry when he/she is excessively tired, sleep-deprived, or sick?
So, for those who criticize consuming and carrying by reason of potential alcohol-induced impairment (whatever the consumed amount might be): would you then agree that a person shouldn't carry when he/she is excessively tired, sleep-deprived, or sick?
Out of an abundance of caution, guns should be securely locked away at night as well. There's no telling what you might do grabbing for you gun after being awaken suddenly in the middle of the night and need to make decisions in seconds.
A bit late to thread, but I'd like to throw in some food for thought.
I've been impaired by long hours/ sleep deprivation - to a point of nearly falling asleep behind the wheel - too numerous times to remember.
Multiple medications, consumed by half of this country population, have sedative/CNS effects.
The discussion of alcohol/concealed carry comes up regularly on various boards, and general response is similar what we got here - most people criticize it on account of lack of common sense and/or responsibility. However, when I throw out one of above scenarios, I get no responses.
So, for those who criticize consuming and carrying by reason of potential alcohol-induced impairment (whatever the consumed amount might be): would you then agree that a person shouldn't carry when he/she is excessively tired, sleep-deprived, or sick?
Alcohol is a choice. Taking prescription meds that impair, is a choice. (don't argue that one.) Getting tired, happens. Adrenaline can compensate for the level exhaustion you are talking about if the moment came. Besides, some of our soldiers run beyond the point of exhaustion and still get the job done. Some LEOs, the same.
Beyond that, no one is talking about the impairing capabilities of 1 (fill in your beverage of choice). At least they shouldn't be since the % of impairment is NOT a constant. The concern is the legal fall out.
ljlinson1206
06-10-09, 01:00
As ZDL stated, drinking and taking meds while carrying is a choice and a poor one. As far as sleep deprivation, being a patrolman in a small town means I get to cover a double shift when a coworker can't come in. That's an 18 hour shift. It happens. And yes, in the event that the SHTF well, that lack of sleep would be scrutinized. I think more to the point, in my opinion it's just bad joojoo to carry while under the influence, no matter how great or small.
Peer pressure? As an adult? How about when it's due to either massive stress or past traumas...or both? Not so easy then. And no, this is not a third person point of view.
I had to deal with two guys that mixed alcohol and guns and blamed it on PTSD in Iraq doing security. The first was no issue except that he drank so much that he shit himself and I had to carry him. The second guy, however, started having flashbacks and tried to kill three of his co-workers. I got to practice my nifty kung fu disarms and ended up choking him out. He woke up and tried to fight me again and I had to knock him out. He apologized the next day and said that he gets that way when he drinks. So I'm thinking WTF why put yourself in that situation, is alcohol so necessary that you have to have it at all costs, or can you exert some self control and do like Failure2Stop said and have a coke and a smile.
HiggsBoson
06-10-09, 07:17
Isn't what we are talking about really the affects of <alcohol|lack of sleep|medication> on presence of mind and situational awareness? Obviously we don't live in a perfect world, but I would prefer to never be in a situation my judgment is negatively affected - whatever the reason. So I avoid impairing myself willingly. If I can't avoid it, being tired is better than being drunk. But driving myself to the point of sleep-deprivation when I have other alternatives... never. That's why we have backup when at all possible. Whether it's our comrades in arms, our friends, family, or even just the wife driving us home because we need to get some sleep.
My point, though, is that what we are talking about is primarily the people who willingly impair themselves when carrying. It's contradictory. If we want to be prepared for any eventuality, to the extent that we train with arms, we carry a weapon... if someone still drinks in a situation where they feel the need to carry a gun then they am lying to themselves.
If you drink in public while you are carrying, you've already lapsed in judgment at the outset. You've granted an advantage to anyone who wants to use it against you. But it's your choice.
So, for those who criticize consuming and carrying by reason of potential alcohol-induced impairment (whatever the consumed amount might be): would you then agree that a person shouldn't carry when he/she is excessively tired, sleep-deprived, or sick?
Getting tired, happens. Adrenaline can compensate for the level exhaustion you are talking about if the moment came.
My point, though, is that what we are talking about is primarily the people who willingly impair themselves when carrying.
As ZDL stated, drinking and taking meds while carrying is a choice and a poor one. As far as sleep deprivation, being a patrolman in a small town means I get to cover a double shift when a coworker can't come in. That's an 18 hour shift. It happens. And yes, in the event that the SHTF well, that lack of sleep would be scrutinized. I think more to the point, in my opinion it's just bad joojoo to carry while under the influence, no matter how great or small.
Drinking is a choice, I agree. Work/career is a choice as well; nobody forced me to do what I do, yet every 5th day or so I go to work with expectation to be up all day/all night. Working overtime is most definitely a choice, whether it is made for financial reasons or because "we need your help". Taking medications and carrying gun is a choice too, in reality.
I do not advocate drinking and carrying, gentlemen. I do advocate an honest look at our lives. On Friday I'll be driving home tired, sleep-deprived and with Glock 19 on my hip after night at work during which I could possibly have saved somebody's life. The fact that I have a societally appropriate "excuse" to be more impaired than somebody who had 2 beers doesn't really make difference to me.
And don't full yourself with adrenaline rush. You'll feel more awake with it, but that's about it. Ask me how I know...
Nathan_Bell
06-10-09, 09:44
Drinking is a choice, I agree. Work/career is a choice as well; nobody forced me to do what I do, yet every 5th day or so I go to work with expectation to be up all day/all night. Working overtime is most definitely a choice, whether it is made for financial reasons or because "we need your help". Taking medications and carrying gun is a choice too, in reality.
I do not advocate drinking and carrying, gentlemen. I do advocate an honest look at our lives. On Friday I'll be driving home tired, sleep-deprived and with Glock 19 on my hip after night at work during which I could possibly have saved somebody's life. The fact that I have a societally appropriate "excuse" to be more impaired than somebody who had 2 beers doesn't really make difference to me.
And don't full yourself with adrenaline rush. You'll feel more awake with it, but that's about it. Ask me how I know...
But it is likely that this WILL have an impact on how a civil trial turns out. You will be able to state that for the past x number of years you have done this and have functioned perfectly. Kind of hard for them to spin a hardworker's dedication to the job as a bad thing.
If you stated that you have driven home after two beers everynight for x number of years. You will be tarred as a drunk who has no sense of responsibility.
Not 'fair' but true.
Nate, I agree 100%. From legal standpoint, drinking and carrying is a bad choice.
My argument is not about legal aspects, though; it is moral/ethical. I assume that folks who refrain from drinking (while carrying) due to concern of potential impairment (regardless of actual amount consumed) are taking a higher ethical road. They exhibit - or try to - higher level of responsibility for their action. If that's the case, then overlooking other - however societally acceptable - causes of impairment is at best shortsighted and, at worst, is hypocritical.
Say I make a mistake and my patient dies because of it. Does it really matter if I made mistake because I was sleep-deprived or under influence? The actual answer - backed up by many malpractice cases - is no: I'd be found guilty in both cases. The punishment will be harder in second case; the ultimate outcome for victim is the same.
Similarly, passengers of a crashed plane are equally dead, whether the pilot was drunk or just tired.
Impairment is impairment, whatever the cause is. If it is unexpected, then there is little you can do. However, if it is expected and avoidable (i.e. say "no" to double shift, stop taking night call etc), then I have hard time believing that sleep-deprived person carrying the gun is morally superior to a guy who didn't remove his CCW piece prior to flushing his burger with a Heineken.
So, for those who criticize consuming and carrying by reason of potential alcohol-induced impairment (whatever the consumed amount might be): would you then agree that a person shouldn't carry when he/she is excessively tired, sleep-deprived, or sick?
Subject to some greater definition of terms, for the most part, yes.
I believe it was NHTSA that published a study about the comparative effects on drivers of sleep deprivation, med consumption, and alcohol consumption (among other variables) It found that the effects of each were not wholly dissimilar, until you had a startle effect. After recognition of the stimulus, the initial response was the same, but the sleepy driver was able to recover from the stimulus faster than the driver on meds or alcohol.
Good point, though, and something to think about.
Out of an abundance of caution, guns should be securely locked away at night as well. There's no telling what you might do grabbing for you gun after being awaken suddenly in the middle of the night and need to make decisions in seconds.
The conventional wisdom in this scenario is that you make retrieval or deployment of the gun take 2 (or 3?) distinct actions/operations to give your mind time to wake up and process inputs. The example I recall is having to stand, move a distance, and retrieve the gun from a box or a holster. Imperfect, but not without foundation.
Except if you are a doctor or a pilot you are performing your job. If you go into a bar as a patron you are there at your convenience and I think that makes a difference. Just my 225 Fils on the situation.
Nate, I agree 100%. From legal standpoint, drinking and carrying is a bad choice.
My argument is not about legal aspects, though; it is moral/ethical. I assume that folks who refrain from drinking (while carrying) due to concern of potential impairment (regardless of actual amount consumed) are taking a higher ethical road. They exhibit - or try to - higher level of responsibility for their action. If that's the case, then overlooking other - however societally acceptable - causes of impairment is at best shortsighted and, at worst, is hypocritical.
Say I make a mistake and my patient dies because of it. Does it really matter if I made mistake because I was sleep-deprived or under influence? The actual answer - backed up by many malpractice cases - is no: I'd be found guilty in both cases. The punishment will be harder in second case; the ultimate outcome for victim is the same.
Similarly, passengers of a crashed plane are equally dead, whether the pilot was drunk or just tired.
Impairment is impairment, whatever the cause is. If it is unexpected, then there is little you can do. However, if it is expected and avoidable (i.e. say "no" to double shift, stop taking night call etc), then I have hard time believing that sleep-deprived person carrying the gun is morally superior to a guy who didn't remove his CCW piece prior to flushing his burger with a Heineken.
As so many others have said, drinking alcohol is a choice and there is no intelligent argument that it's the same kind of choice as what you do for a profession.
The surface effect of sleep depravation may be similar to being drink in some respects, but the biological cause is different. Sleep depravation accidents usually occur due to lack of awareness, not necessarily actual poor judgment, and they occur before the adrenaline dump begins. Adrenaline, which you'd have in a gun fight, can stave off those effects from sleep depravation. Adrenaline isn't going to help you make better decisions when you're drunk ... as most of us can attest to from personal experience.
The meds thing is different. First, it's crazy to lump all meds into one rule. I've had to take blood pressure meds ever since having a kidney out. It has no impact on my ability to drive, etc. I don't feel like I should be barred from carrying a gun because of it.
Meds that have an impact on one's mental state that is similar (or more severe) than alcohol certainly should be treated as such. Again, this is basic firearms safety rules ... if you're on meds that can impair your judgment or ability to handle a firearm, don't handle a firearm. I realize that may suck because unlike drinking it's not really a choice to take meds your doc says you need to stay alive or stay healthy or stay sane, but ... life isn't fair.
CarlosDJackal
06-10-09, 12:24
A...So, for those who criticize consuming and carrying by reason of potential alcohol-induced impairment (whatever the consumed amount might be): would you then agree that a person shouldn't carry when he/she is excessively tired, sleep-deprived, or sick?
IMHO, comparing a biologically and/or environmentally induced impairment to alcohol or drug-induced impairment is just silly. It's like comparing breathing to smoking. Talk about an invalid argument.
First of all, you are comparing impairments that are caused naturally to that of one that has to be deliberately induced into your system. While an impairment is an impairment, naturally-induced impairments such as acute fatigue occur not necessarily by choice.
You will get tired and sleepy and you will get sick when exposed to some idiot who does not have the courtesy to cover up their mouth when they sneeze of cough. That bottle of beer isn't going to jump out of that cooler, pop itself open, and forcibly pour its contents down your throat when you least expect it.
Secondly, our body has evolved over generations mechanisms to counteract the effects of fatigue, sleepiness, or sickness during acute situations. This has been necessary for the survival of the species and is not something we can defeat. In other words, these mechanisms will kick in whenever we perceive an immediate danger to our life or limb.
This is not necessarily so when the impairment is induced by an outside substance because if it were the opposite, we would not be having this discussion.
But this topic aside, if someone is so chronically sleepy or fatigued, them carrying a concealed handgun is going to be the least of anyone's worry. If someone is so tired that they cannot safely handle a firearm or make sound decisions the chances are they are already a danger to themselves and those around them. Especially when they try to operate any sort of machinery and maybe even when doing something as simple as walking, standing, or sitting (I've fallen out of many chairs when I fell asleep).
If you're too sick, tired, or sleepy to be able to effectively and safely defend yourself (regardless of the tool you use), I'd be willing to bet that you're probably going to be bed-ridden and probably in a coma. JM2CW.
As so many others have said, drinking alcohol is a choice and there is no intelligent argument that it's the same kind of choice as what you do for a profession.
The point I was trying to make didn't have as much to do with profession as with taking responsibility for potential impairment whatever the cause is - alcohol, sleep deprivation.
Just as you can make a choice not to drink, you can make a choice to take steps - personal or professional - not to get impaired otherwise. Or not to carry if you reaaally tired - but how many do that?
The surface effect of sleep depravation may be similar to being drink in some respects, but the biological cause is different. Sleep depravation accidents usually occur due to lack of awareness, not necessarily actual poor judgment, and they occur before the adrenaline dump begins. Adrenaline, which you'd have in a gun fight, can stave off those effects from sleep depravation.
Todd, this is purely theoretical. Having completed 8 years of post-grad medical training, I've learned about sleep deprivation in a hard way. I can tell you that I've made both judgement errors, effort errors and technical errors while being sleep deprived, and no adrenaline rush helped me much.
The meds thing is different. First, it's crazy to lump all meds into one rule. I've had to take blood pressure meds ever since having a kidney out. It has no impact on my ability to drive, etc. I don't feel like I should be barred from carrying a gun because of it.
First of, I want to wish you the very best of health and long years of productive life. FYI, several antihypertensive agents have potential depressive CNS side effects. Beta-blockers as a class have that, especially lipophilic ones. Clonidine is notoroius for CNS depression, especially at higher doses. Considering that you're shooting sub-5 sec times on F.A.S.T., I'd imagine you aren't on any of those, or you aren't getting those side effects.
The point here is that many common pills can affect CNS, and it is up to each individual patient (and their doc) to find a right med.
First of all, you are comparing impairments that are caused naturally to that of one that has to be deliberately induced into your system. While an impairment is an impairment, naturally-induced impairments such as acute fatigue occur not necessarily by choice.
You and I will have to disagree here, Carlos. Working 36 hours straight or putting up a 120 hours week is anything but a natural impairment. Chosing a career that requires to do so is a pure individual choice.
P.S. Completely unrelated: do you play tennis?
Just as you can make a choice not to drink, you can make a choice to take steps - personal or professional - not to get impaired otherwise.
I still think you are way too far out on the limb with the profession choice thing. Lots of professions that require gun-toting also require folks to operate when they are not at their best.
No one is saying "don't carry a gun unless you're feeling 100% at the top of your game that day." What we're saying is "don't do anything recreationally to further hamper your awareness, judgment, reflexes, and motor control if you are planning to carry a gun during or immediately thereafter."
Or not to carry if you reaaally tired - but how many do that?
Again, being "reaaally tired" isn't something I do by choice.
If I broke my right arm, I wouldn't be able to shoot as well. I wouldn't stop carrying just because I broke my right arm.
Todd, this is purely theoretical. Having completed 8 years of post-grad medical training, I've learned about sleep deprivation in a hard way. I can tell you that I've made both judgement errors, effort errors and technical errors while being sleep deprived, and no adrenaline rush helped me much.
Having been in stressful fight-or-flight situations when (a) drunk and (b) exhausted, I can tell you that there is a huge difference in how adrenaline changes things between the two. I'm not saying sleep depravation is meaningless, I'm just saying it's not the same.
First of, I want to wish you the very best of health and long years of productive life. FYI, several antihypertensive agents have potential depressive CNS side effects. Beta-blockers as a class have that, especially lipophilic ones. Clonidine is notoroius for CNS depression, especially at higher doses.
Ug not know big words. Huh?
I can tell you, since I googled it :cool: that I'm taking a drug that is a slow release formulation of a calcium channel blocker combined with an immediate release formulation of an angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitor. I have no friggin' idea what any of that means except that my blood pressure was 185/125 when I went in to have my first biopsy (pre-medication) and right now it's 128/76. I'm no doc, but I think that's better.
CarlosDJackal
06-10-09, 13:35
You and I will have to disagree here, Carlos. Working 36 hours straight or putting up a 120 hours week is anything but a natural impairment. Chosing a career that requires to do so is a pure individual choice...
What I mean by "natural" is that it happens biologically - as in it is not normally induced by ingesting anything. As in sleepiness and fatigue WILL occur not from consciously ordering a beverage and ingesting it because one feels that it is their right to do so.
There are professions out there that require gun-toting individuals to stay awake for days at a time. The average amount of sleep I received when I was an Infantryman during an FTX is around 2-5-hours a night. Not only did we do this for weeks at a time, it was never 2-5-hours straight because we also had guard duty, fire guard, etc.
And anyone who has ever been in the military or a Patrol Officer will tell you that it is not an individual choice. While the line of work may be so, the lack of sleep is most certainly not. Drinking alcohol is never a necessity to sustain life or limb. Staying awake while on guard duty most certainly is.
Like I've said before, whether alcohol may or may not play into your ability to make a decision is not the point. The fact that it WILL be used against you in a civil suit is.
Anyone can argue how a single drink has never impaired them in the least and show proof of it may be fine and dandy. But once you're in civil court this lack of "discretion" on your part WILL be brought to bear and WILL be used against you despite all the facts to the contrary. Anyone who has ever been a witness to or has ever been involved in civil trial can attest to this.
P.S. Completely unrelated: do you play tennis?
Not in a very long time. I was never very good. :p
decodeddiesel
06-10-09, 13:40
I still think you are way too far out on the limb with the profession choice thing. Lots of professions that require gun-toting also require folks to operate when they are not at their best.
LOL...yeah.
"But Sir, we can't go out on that patrol. Some of my men didn't get any sleep last night and they are tired!"
I still think you are way too far out on the limb with the profession choice thing. Lots of professions that require gun-toting also require folks to operate when they are not at their best.
I think that's a bit different since those professionals are required to carry and use gun under all conditions; for me and most here, it is a choice.
What we're saying is "don't do anything recreationally to further hamper your awareness, judgment, reflexes, and motor control if you are planning to carry a gun during or immediately thereafter.".
Agree 100%.
What I'm saying is that once in a while after particularly tough day/night shift I feel that I am more impaired than after having a drink or two.
P.S. You are on a pretty good blood pressure meds than aren't particularly known for a CNS side effects. For somebody whose kidney was removed the blood pressure goals generally depend on functional status of remaining kidney, but less than 130/80 should be fine regardless. Again, best wishes on keeping things under control!
exkc135driver
06-11-09, 08:42
Re: the drug impairment thing ...
Would it not be a safe rule of thumb to assume that, if the drug warnings that are posted on the bottle do not warn against driving, operating machinery, etc. while taking the drug in question, that one's judgment/reaction would not be impaired?
very good thread so far.
Basic to this issue, if you get into a shooting situation, have you done all that you could, to minimize the liabilities and impacts back on you, while operating within the norms? regardless of whether the shoot was justified or not doesn't count in today's litigatious society. I'ld much rather have to defend sleep deprivation from a double shift, compared to having a beer at the pub.
CryingWolf
06-11-09, 09:03
It's about this time we have to build the robots to take over for our own personal security. I think we should call it "Sky Net" that way no one will have to worry about whether or not they are too tired to carry a weapon.
Re: the drug impairment thing ...
Would it not be a safe rule of thumb to assume that, if the drug warnings that are posted on the bottle do not warn against driving, operating machinery, etc. while taking the drug in question, that one's judgment/reaction would not be impaired?
I think it is a fair rule of thumb, and certainly should work for legal purposes.
However, it is important to understand that only those drugs that cause impairment predictably and frequently get such labels. Quite a few common meds can cause impairment of various degrees with various frequencies, and they don't get these warnings. Just exercise common sense when you get new medications prescribed and ask your doc what are the common side effects and whether any type of performance - physical, mental, sexual etc - can be impaired.
Why is it that I am not afforded the right (In your eyes) to protect myself from enraged and deranged democrats that may walk into a bar or resturaunt that I am patronizing? Why should I not be able to patronize these businesses as a responsable grown up, have 2-3 beers with my dinner, have my pistol safely tucked in my waist band, and be free to live my life.
You feel that just because I have a few (not a half a case!) beers with dinner I am no longer deserving of the right to self defense? I am truely amazed and at the same time offended! That is some real uppity, I am better than thou.....bullshit.
I understand that some do not drink at all, some drink a few times a year and others drink a few times a week. And within that massive spectrum, some will drink a couple beers at a time and at the other end you will have stumbling drunks.... and everywhere in between. But to honestly think that if a man goes out into the wild (public) to patronize a business and enjoy a bubbly libation while there....that this man/woman does not deserve the right to protection from the animals that prowl the wilds of our world.....thats pretty messed up.
You drink a beer - You deserve to die if confronted by a bad guy
You dont drink beer - You deserve to have the tools to defend yourself.
Me, I'll keep carrying while I go out. If some nut job tries to smite me and the other Godly folks in my area, I will have a chance to save myself and maybe the others. Should I be alive, I doubt I'll be more concerned with lawyers than I will be about being alive.
I choose life. It's a cool thing to do. Breathing is fun!
The other night and friend and I went to dinner. We both carry 100% of the time. We were sitting there talking and he ordered a Crown and Coke before dinner. He had only one, and drank water with the rest of the meal. We ate our meal, payed the bill, and left. I didn't say anything about it, but it bugged me a little. I knew he was wearing a gun, and yet he had had a drink with dinner. This has raised a moral problem for me. In Texas there is no law against carry a gun in an establishment that serves alcohol, only if that establishment derives less than 51% of it's income from the sale of alcohol. There is also no real law against drinking while carrying a gun, but common sense dictates that you shouldn't. Should one drink be a problem? He was by no means drunk, but if he had had to use that gun would they of just killed him in court? Should you become defenseless if you only want to have one drink with dinner? Is really the best course of action to just not drink if you carry a gun? I am not saying yes or no one way or the other. I am simply asking yalls opinion on the matter. I am only talking about a drink here and there, or one beer here and there, I am not talking about getting sloshed at the bar while wearing a gun. We all have one or two drinks and drive home, is that any less irresponsible than wearing a gun while doing the same thing? What are your thoughts?
This is a personal choice for the CCW holder. I personally do not think one drink (with dinner over an hour) isn't a big deal YMMV.
Just so you are aware, there are a TRUCK LOAD of cops that will have a drink or two (or get chit faced) while armed (FYI).
C4
This is a personal choice for the CCW holder. I personally do not think one drink (with dinner over an hour) isn't a big deal YMMV.
Just so you are aware, there are a TRUCK LOAD of cops that will have a drink or two (or get chit faced) while armed (FYI).
C4
I don't drink at all, not one bit, but that's a personal choice I've made, therefore drinking and carrying isn't an issue for me.
As for LEOs who drink, we have a couple LEOs who come into the nightclub I work at and are friends with one of our owners. While they don't get trashed regularly, I've seen one of them pretty drunk a couple times, armed with a Keltec PF9, which he was more than happy to take out and show to me on one occassion, after the club was closed. When he took it out he covered several other doormen who were standing there with the muzzle and I politely extricated myself from the situation. This same LEO has told me that, since you should train like you fight, he has gone to the range with other officers and a sergeant, with a bottle of Patron, and practiced drunk. Just in case he runs into a situation when he's drunk apparently. :rolleyes:
I don't drink at all, not one bit, but that's a personal choice I've made, therefore drinking and carrying isn't an issue for me.
As for LEOs who drink, we have a couple LEOs who come into the nightclub I work at and are friends with one of our owners. While they don't get trashed regularly, I've seen one of them pretty drunk a couple times, armed with a Keltec PF9, which he was more than happy to take out and show to me on one occassion, after the club was closed. When he took it out he covered several other doormen who were standing there with the muzzle and I politely extricated myself from the situation. This same LEO has told me that, since you should train like you fight, he has gone to the range with other officers and a sergeant, with a bottle of Patron, and practiced drunk. Just in case he runs into a situation when he's drunk apparently. :rolleyes:
This does not shock me in the least.
C4
I enjoy a beer or two on occasion. However, the guns go away before the bottle comes out of the fridge or before I go to the restaurant/bar. As a result, I rarely drink when I go out.
For me, it's simply a matter of priority. Do I wish to carry or do I wish to drink? Drinking while carrying is a line I will not cross. I have too much respect for the responsibility that comes with being armed in public to voluntarily impair myself...even if the impairment is miniscule.
This does not shock me in the least.
C4
Didn't really shock me either, but the story he told me about training at the range with Patron tequila made me raise an eyebrow.
I don't drink at all, not one bit, but that's a personal choice I've made, therefore drinking and carrying isn't an issue for me.
As for LEOs who drink, we have a couple LEOs who come into the nightclub I work at and are friends with one of our owners. While they don't get trashed regularly, I've seen one of them pretty drunk a couple times, armed with a Keltec PF9, which he was more than happy to take out and show to me on one occassion, after the club was closed. When he took it out he covered several other doormen who were standing there with the muzzle and I politely extricated myself from the situation. This same LEO has told me that, since you should train like you fight, he has gone to the range with other officers and a sergeant, with a bottle of Patron, and practiced drunk. Just in case he runs into a situation when he's drunk apparently. :rolleyes:
I know 2 LEOs personally and have been out with them on several occasions where I definitely didn't think they needed to be carrying due to the amount of alcohol they'd consumed. I've also been in several arguments with them about their hypocritical, dangerous, holier than thou behavior that led absolutely nowhere other than they agree with me and won't change. Hopefully they see the light someday.
One of my longest time drinking buddies from back when I was a bit younger and drank a bit more was and still is a LEO. He never leaves the bed in the morning without his Glock. I tapered way back the drinking, he still hits it full steam.
Another one of my old party pals was and still is a Sherrif. Armed at all times, drinking or not.
Good dudes, both would take a bullet for a stranger in a heart beat. Both like to have a good time.
The first one, in case he reads this..... he will know I'm talking about him....liked to hit me with the damn stun gun while we were drinking. That SOB would knock my feet right out from under me when he jammed it into my lower back. Good times it was.
Out of these guys, me and my pals... is one safer or better with a weapon when not under the influence? Is one of us better or safer than the other while under the influence?
I'm sure that some of ya'all are right and in a perfect world there would never be a beer or glass of wine consumed by a person with a firearm. But in that same perfect world.... no one would need to carry a firearm because there would be no insane killers shooting some folks up every few days.
Welcome to reality, folks go crazy and kill innocent folks all the time. That is why I carry, drinking or not. I carry because my crystal ball is broken.
Failure2Stop
06-11-09, 11:41
I'm sure that some of ya'all are right and in a perfect world there would never be a beer or glass of wine consumed by a person with a firearm. But in that same perfect world.... no one would need to carry a firearm because there would be no insane killers shooting some folks up every few days.
The thing is that we have no control over when some psycho is going to do something stupid, when someone is going to try to rob us, or when a disagreement will go south and turn ugly. However, I can control if I knowingly ingest alcohol. Your argument is like saying that in a perfect world everybody would be able to run a marathon if only cake didn't exist.
Welcome to reality, folks go crazy and kill innocent folks all the time. That is why I carry, drinking or not. I carry because my crystal ball is broken.
Funny, that's why I don't drink when carrying.
You also make the assumption that your only method of self-defense is your firearm. Never underestimate the stopping power of a mug to the back of the skull followed by a game of hop-scotch on the douche-bag's grid.
Rapid, violent movement with hostile intent works pretty well in close-range constrictive environments regardless if you are holding a G19, stabby blade, or a nice beer-mug. Better than a gun? Hard to argue that, but I would say that a moderately intoxicated dude with a decent level of fitness and training with a decent impact weapon will be more effective within 5 meters than an equally drunk guy with minimal training and a concealed pistol.
HiggsBoson
06-11-09, 11:47
In trying to make your case, you just perfectly illustrated why people should not drink while carrying. Hitting an unaware person with a stun gun just for fun is a great way to at minimum start a fight. Only a fool would think that's a good idea. If that fight involves at least one person armed with a handgun, it is likely to escalate to lethality with frightening speed. I don't know whether case law supports escalating to the use of firearms when an assailant uses a stun gun, but I suspect the jury would support the person who was attacked rather than the instigator. I wouldn't want to find out.
...liked to hit me with the damn stun gun while we were drinking. That SOB would knock my feet right out from under me when he jammed it into my lower back.
John_Wayne777
06-11-09, 12:29
Rapid, violent movement with hostile intent works pretty well in close-range constrictive environments regardless if you are holding a G19, stabby blade, or a nice beer-mug.
A wise man once told me that "Close proximity and violence of action can make up for a world of training and equipment deficits."
Littlelebowski
06-11-09, 12:47
Me, I'll keep carrying while I go out. If some nut job tries to smite me and the other Godly folks in my area, I will have a chance to save myself and maybe the others.
I'll take care of myself and the other not-Godly folk :D
Jay Cunningham
06-11-09, 12:52
Your argument is like saying that in a perfect world everybody would be able to run a marathon if only cake didn't exist.
:p:p:p
Your argument is like saying that in a perfect world everybody would be able to run a marathon if only cake didn't exist.
Dude, everyone knows it's not the cake.... it's McDonalds! Eradicate us of the 30 second hamburger lines with a super huge side of fries.... and the entire country would be out running marathons!
Tonight, my wife and I are going to the bar at the end of the street for wings and a couple beers. Maybe I'll leave the pistol at home. Na. You just never know. :D
Didn't really shock me either, but the story he told me about training at the range with Patron tequila made me raise an eyebrow.
A controlled drinking exercise that quantified differences in performance at various levels of impairment would be very interesting. Problematic to conduct, but interesting.
Most folks are just a**clowns drinking at the range without such deliberation.
A partner agency has a state-wide meeting for its folks every so often, and usually combines some training with it. When once they did firearms, it was interesting to see how many of the middle to upper management was still hanging...badly...during their range session. Great thing, and great example to set for the troops. :rolleyes:
This same LEO has told me that, since you should train like you fight, he has gone to the range with other officers and a sergeant, with a bottle of Patron, and practiced drunk. Just in case he runs into a situation when he's drunk apparently. :rolleyes:
That is a horrid idea, yet unsurprising. About 10 months ago 2 off duty St.Louis officers went over to a bar on the Illinois east side. They pulled out their guns for some unknown reason, and the police were called and they were too drunk to realize what was happening and flagged one of the responding officers and got shot for their stupidity, both of them.
A controlled drinking exercise that quantified differences in performance at various levels of impairment would be very interesting. Problematic to conduct, but interesting.
We (some M4C folks) actually talked about doing this last year, but it never went anywhere.
I can provide Sim guns and (past-date) Sim FX ammo for the testing, which would at least reduce the likelihood of serious injury in the event someone does something stupid once achieving an adequately embarrassing level of inebriation.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-11-09, 23:30
That is a horrid idea, yet unsurprising. About 10 months ago 2 off duty St.Louis officers went over to a bar on the Illinois east side. They pulled out their guns for some unknown reason.....
Heeelllloooo, it's the East Side. Great Peeler bars, bad neighborhoods. When my buddies and I used to go, there was no putting on your seatbelt until the car was moving.
We (some M4C folks) actually talked about doing this last year, but it never went anywhere.
I can provide Sim guns and (past-date) Sim FX ammo for the testing, which would at least reduce the likelihood of serious injury in the event someone does something stupid once achieving an adequately embarrassing level of inebriation.
In college, they used to take a few students and run them thru a driving obstacle course as they fed them beer. I don't remember ever seeing the video, don't know why they did it. For shooting, I think if it were a controlled enviroment, and the subjects (to be scientific) were known not to be totally dumbasses, it isn't that bad of an idea. Not to full incapacitation, just to the legal limit will probably work. Heck, throw in a few OTC drugs too.
We (some M4C folks) actually talked about doing this last year, but it never went anywhere.
I can provide Sim guns and (past-date) Sim FX ammo for the testing, which would at least reduce the likelihood of serious injury in the event someone does something stupid once achieving an adequately embarrassing level of inebriation.
This is nothing more than a elaborate reason to have a few drinks with shooting buddies.
I'm in. :D
do you guys vehemently opposed to it lock your guns in a safe that you don't have access to while drinking at home?
No, but I don't drink while cleaning my guns at home, either. And if I have a bunch of guys over drinking I would definitely put the guns away and accept the risk associated with being unarmed, however small.
Drinking any amount of alcohol has an effect on you judgement. Small amounts have a smaller effect, obviously.
I'm not passing judgement. But after one drink I am potentially someone's cheap date, so I NEVER consume ANY alcohol while armed. That's just me.
Nathan_Bell
06-12-09, 14:44
We (some M4C folks) actually talked about doing this last year, but it never went anywhere.
I can provide Sim guns and (past-date) Sim FX ammo for the testing, which would at least reduce the likelihood of serious injury in the event someone does something stupid once achieving an adequately embarrassing level of inebriation.
I would be in for this, except how would we tell when I started to get worse? ;)
I would be in for this, except how would we tell when I started to get worse? ;)
When you get so dunk......err....drunk.... that you begin to accidentally hit targets! :D
I would be in for this, except how would we tell when I started to get worse? ;)
Actually, I think the test protocol would be fairly easy.
(1) Shoot the F.A.S.T.
(2) Engage in a repeatable but unpredictable judgmental shooting exercise
I'd love to incorporate a bullseye segment, as well, but SimFX aren't accurate enough and I'm simply not willing to do this with lethal ammo.
Do this when 100% sober, then every 15 minutes the shooter will have a drink and repeat the test.
Ideally, we'd have three or four heavy drinkers, three or four social drinkers, and three or four people to form a control group.
Nathan_Bell
06-12-09, 19:06
Actually, I think the test protocol would be fairly easy.
(1) Shoot the F.A.S.T.
(2) Engage in a repeatable but unpredictable judgmental shooting exercise
I'd love to incorporate a bullseye segment, as well, but SimFX aren't accurate enough and I'm simply not willing to do this with lethal ammo.
Do this when 100% sober, then every 15 minutes the shooter will have a drink and repeat the test.
Ideally, we'd have three or four heavy drinkers, three or four social drinkers, and three or four people to form a control group.
Yeah, that protocol would be entirely too dangerous with live ammo. :eek:
Bullseye, we could use single shot air rig like the bullseye folks love. I am sure someone has one.
exkc135driver
06-13-09, 00:17
The first one, in case he reads this..... he will know I'm talking about him....liked to hit me with the damn stun gun while we were drinking. That SOB would knock my feet right out from under me when he jammed it into my lower back. Good times it was.
If you are trying to convince me how responsible and mature you guys were when you were drinking, you're not succeeding.
QuietShootr
06-13-09, 09:35
Heeelllloooo, it's the East Side. Great Peeler bars, bad neighborhoods. When my buddies and I used to go, there was no putting on your seatbelt until the car was moving.
In college, they used to take a few students and run them thru a driving obstacle course as they fed them beer. I don't remember ever seeing the video, don't know why they did it. For shooting, I think if it were a controlled enviroment, and the subjects (to be scientific) were known not to be totally dumbasses, it isn't that bad of an idea. Not to full incapacitation, just to the legal limit will probably work. Heck, throw in a few OTC drugs too.
I think it's a great idea. If done right, it could really put some uninformed concepts to bed.
In trying to make your case, you just perfectly illustrated why people should not drink while carrying. Hitting an unaware person with a stun gun just for fun is a great way to at minimum start a fight. Only a fool would think that's a good idea. If that fight involves at least one person armed with a handgun, it is likely to escalate to lethality with frightening speed. I don't know whether case law supports escalating to the use of firearms when an assailant uses a stun gun, but I suspect the jury would support the person who was attacked rather than the instigator. I wouldn't want to find out.
I would support the shooter if I were on a jury and I'd most definitely use deadly force if one is used upon me while I was minding my own damned business and capable of responding. Make no mistake about that one.
They are legal (tasers) in Louisiana and I've brought this subject up to several LEOs and I was met with silence each time probably because they hadn't considered it or there has not been a ruling on it.
Yes, it's a "gray" area but to me a weapon is a weapon. Perp does his worst and I'll do mine. And if the pistol trumps the taser then so be it...
This is apparently an issue in MI right now. Some LEOs have expressed this same scenario with me and they are divided - as tasers are marketed (incorrectly) as "non-lethal". They are "less than lethal" usually, but once you're incapacitated it matters not.
If you are trying to convince me how responsible and mature you guys were when you were drinking, you're not succeeding.
The cool thing about the state of PA is that your opinion is less meaningfull than a fly buzzing around in the forest. If you think my pals and I were about to draw weapons, your sadly mistaken. I am sure that your caliber of folk is much more civilized than mine and never horse play with each other, but that does not make my kind of people dangerous.
In my state I am allowed to open carry. I can carry concealed with an $18 permit that requires no bullshit class time. I can carry in a bar. I can open carry in a bar. I can beat my wife with a stick as long as it is no longer than finger tip to elbow and no thicker than my thumb.
That last one, I do not excersize my right to perform. The others, I am legally obliged to perform at will.
Yesterday I was open carrying and I walked into a Sheetz and a LEO was there waiting to pay for his donut and coffee. He immediately swept his eyes to my pistol and smiled and gave me a nod. Around here, open carry is rare, but not unheard of, the LEO do not pester you for lawfull open carry.
Man, 10 pages?? I have been gone a long time....sorry. Life....wife / kids and $$$$ kinda kept me out of the loop for a while. Sure is a lot easier when you are engauged from the beginning!!
Reading it all, it's hard to find where to start. TX, I think was stated as zero tolerance and I really think that is where the OP was kinda peeved with his compadre. Knowing he should not have had that one toddy....correct??
To the OP....man, I don't know what to tell you. I would never put my friend it that position. Surprised he didn't ask you if you would mind 1st, as that is what a real friend would do, knowing you both were carrying.
Being friends with lots of leo and who I spend most of my time with, I guess most of my similar situations have been with drinking and hunting. It's a comparable deal. Some buddies drink while hunting, others after the hunt is over. Drinking & driving, drinking & hunting, drinking and reloading, drinking and carry?? HOW big could the list get. (Drinking and posting ;) ) All tough topics!! Zero tolerance or .08?? I don't have the answers as it could go on forever.....Judged by 12 than carried by 6, correct??
Drink or die?? Drink or jail?? Drink or accident?? Man, the bubble boy had it made!!
Sigh......good thread but NO REAL ANSWERS. The post of the gang banger all doped up and not being able to defend yorself for being responsible is kinda creepy.
I'm gonna bring this up with some leo buddies and get a "campfire opinion" which is usually different than the social group answer.
CryingWolf
06-14-09, 12:09
Thanks for pointing out that this is probably in Texas Artos;
Did a little research and came up with this
Chapter 411.171 relating to the Concealed Carry Statues points to definitions in Chapter 49.01 where intoxicated is defined.
Sec. 49.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
(1) "Alcohol concentration" means the number of grams of alcohol per:
(A) 210 liters of breath;
(B) 100 milliliters of blood; or
(C) 67 milliliters of urine.
(2) "Intoxicated" means:
(A) not having the normal use of mental or physical faculties by reason of the introduction of alcohol, a controlled substance, a drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of two or more of those substances, or any other substance into the body; or
(B) having an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or more.
As far as the law and a police officer concerned 2A could get you into trouble even below 0.08. This would be the same if you were driving. I think 2A is addressing people who may take a muscle relaxant then have a few drinks. They may fall under .08 BAC but are still not in control of their physical / mental faculties.
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