View Full Version : Question for LE
A couple of days ago, a good friend of mines wife was robbed at gunpoint by a guy who was impersonating a cop.
She was pulled over by what evidentally appeared to her as cop cruiser, and then robbed
The incident ocurred in NH, I'm in MI.
What advice should I give to my 16 yr old daughter and wife?
Thank you, Terry.
Blinkers (or hazards) on, pull to the RIGHT, slow down, drive to lit and populated area.
PASSING lit and populated areas while using the phone (which we can see you doing) is not a great idea.
The advice given in the media is more or less accepted as reasonable. I have even come to allow those in the car to use cellphones as long as they participate in the traffic stop. Most are black females who will call mom or dad and stay on the phone with them while I conduct business.
If this puts them at ease I personally have no problem with it.
But a note for officer safety we recently had an officer with a trainee who allowed a b/f to do just what I described but she was actually talking to her brother who turned out to be a wannabe gang member who in turn rallied his posse who in turn quickly showed up at the traffic stop which was two streets from the wanna be gang hang out.
Many people were arrested that night, including the driver who was suspended and had an outstanding VOP warrant.
Just presenting the other side of the coin...
:(
The advice given in the media is more or less accepted as reasonable. I have even come to allow those in the car to use cellphones as long as they participate in the traffic stop. Most are black females who will call mom or dad and stay on the phone with them while I conduct business.
If this puts them at ease I personally have no problem with it.
But a note for officer safety we recently had an officer with a trainee who allowed a b/f to do just what I described but she was actually talking to her brother who turned out to be a wannabe gang member who in turn rallied his posse who in turn quickly showed up at the traffic stop which was two streets from the wanna be gang hang out.
Many people were arrested that night, including the driver who was suspended and had an outstanding VOP warrant.
Just presenting the other side of the coin...
:(
I never let people use cellphones during stops for the reason you just mentioned. Happens often to other agencies/officers who allow this. I've just had bad run ins with it before which has shaped my methods.
I never let people use cellphones during stops for the reason you just mentioned. Happens often to other agencies/officers who allow this. I've just had bad run ins with it before which has shaped my methods.
At one time I did too, but here folks file complaint because your boots have a scuff on them and you wear an odd number of belt keepers and our puss-ass admin just pats the complainer on their backs, tell them how awful they must feel then rip us for vacation days.
Oh the politics of Trashville...
ljlinson1206
06-08-09, 22:34
I patrol a small town in TX where we have very little gang activity. That being said, I've allowed folks to use thier cell until it was time for the violator and I to speak. As to your situation Terry, I tell my wife and teen daughters to be aware of thier surroundings at all times. Try to stay in high lit areas and and near the public eye. Unless you live in a bubble, you aren't going to be 100% safe all the time, but if you'll stay vigilant you can prevent most scumbags from making you a target.
JSandi,
Did we work for the same dept.? Where after a scuffle, the Sgt. would show up on scene not to check on the officers welfare, but to see if the offenders wanted to file charges against the officers. Where false complaints weren't investigated against officers even though policy stated they were to be. Ah, the good old days. :D
Wild Bill
I never let people use cellphones during stops for the reason you just mentioned. Happens often to other agencies/officers who allow this. I've just had bad run ins with it before which has shaped my methods.
While I agree with your reasoning. Under what authority do you enforce your no cell calls policy. I see you having no authority to enforce your request.
At one time I did too, but here folks file complaint because your boots have a scuff on them and you wear an odd number of belt keepers and our puss-ass admin just pats the complainer on their backs, tell them how awful they must feel then rip us for vacation days.
Oh the politics of Trashville...
Sent you a PM.
Also, funny you mention getting complained on. I was just made aware tonight a written complaint was filed on me for something extremely trivial. Not to mention I was actually cutting the guy a break.... He was using his cell phone on my second approach, his dad thought he heard me say something I didn't say, over said cell phone. Tape cleared me. :rolleyes:
Surprised mine got to the level it did. Even if I had done what the guy said I did.... It wouldn't have been wrong, inappropriate, against SOP or illegal. Still scratching my head on how it got all the way up and down the chain of command. :rolleyes:
SWATcop556
06-08-09, 23:52
I always have violators hang up the phone. It is an officer safety issue and we have been backed up by the department.
To the OP driving into a well lit, populated area is the best bet. I have told my wife not to initially pull over for anyone trying to stop her in an unmarked unit. To many nuts can just by red and blues and put them in their auctioned Crown Vic.
If an unmarked is trying to stop someone I recommend they call 911 and ask if there are unmarked units making traffic stops. Never to careful.
Even as a LEO I will not stop for an unmarked unit unless I'm damn f**king sure its a cop!
The advice so far is good. I would caution on calling the police dept for a variety of reasons:
1. Are you sure you are calling the right agency? In my general area, I can easily think of about half a dozen different agencies that might be stopping you all with similar looking cars.
2. Even if you know the agency, it might be hard to get ahold of someone who knows what is going on, particularly in a large organization.
3. Cops sometimes get lazy about calling in their stops, or do it after they get the vehicle stopped. Agency SOPs differ, and some cops do whatever they want anyways. This means that even if you get the right agency, and the right person on the line, they still might not know what is going on.
Anyways, best bet is if you aren't sure, pull over into a gas station or something like that. Understand that you will be having to deal with a few slightly pissed off cops.
SWATcop556
06-09-09, 00:03
The advice so far is good. I would caution on calling the police dept for a variety of reasons:
1. Are you sure you are calling the right agency? In my general area, I can easily think of about half a dozen different agencies that might be stopping you all with similar looking cars.
2. Even if you know the agency, it might be hard to get ahold of someone who knows what is going on, particularly in a large organization.
3. Cops sometimes get lazy about calling in their stops, or do it after they get the vehicle stopped. Agency SOPs differ, and some cops do whatever they want anyways. This means that even if you get the right agency, and the right person on the line, they still might not know what is going on.
Anyways, best bet is if you aren't sure, pull over into a gas station or something like that. Understand that you will be having to deal with a few slightly pissed off cops.
Very good point. I know of 5 different agencies that conduct traffic stops in our area. My advice was more directed at unmarked vehicle stops as opposed to marked units with overhead lights.
While I agree with your reasoning. Under what authority do you enforce your no cell calls policy. I see you having no authority to enforce your request.
Case law. Statute. SOP. Me.
Very good point. I know of 5 different agencies that conduct traffic stops in our area. My advice was more directed at unmarked vehicle stops as opposed to marked units with overhead lights.
I'm not saying don't call, but rather be aware of the situation.
In large agencies, 911 call takers and police dispatchers are two separate job functions. The person who answers the call doesn't handle dispatching the units; they take the info, type it into an electronic 'keycard' (kind of like an email) and send it to the dispatchers. Oftentimes, they aren't even in the same room. While of course they can get in touch with each other and figure out who is stopping you, the system really isn't set up for that kind of communication - so it won't be quick or easy.
In a smaller agency, one person typically does both jobs so you will have better luck there.
Of course, all this is predicated on your cell being connected with the right agency, which is really a topic for another thread.
ljlinson1206
06-09-09, 00:37
You guys bring up good points. I drive a slick top and sometimes people don't stop right away. However I also take into consideration that I (AM) in a slick top and try to understand the persons point of view. I think a level of common sense should be used. And you're right, anyone can go to an AutoZone and buy some woo woos.
I've had unmarked (conventional and otherwise), slick-top, and marked vehicles, including SUVs and pickups. The less I looked like a cop, the more latititude the driver got for doubt.
Advice: As others said, slow down, signal intent to comply, find a lighted populated area. A driver can also dial 911, identify their location, and ask if a stop is being performed. How well that works depends on the volume of cops and agencies in an area.
Cell phones... Depends on all the particulars of the stop, like violation, location, driver behavior, and such. If they're talking on approach, I ask them to please end their call. If I have concerns about who they're calling and why, I either collect the phone temporarily or otherwise separate them from it.
Over the years, I've had a number of folks that will call various friends or family members and summon them to the scene. It's a mess best avoided.
Being disagreeable over the phone is a great way to turn a warning into a ticket.
I live in a good area, pretty rural actually, but so did she.
I don't know how far my friends wife was from a well lit area, but i know she will be very leery of police, for a long time, even though it has nothing to do with real cops.
My wife, daughter, or even myself could have to travel what could be construde as an unreasonable distance to find a well lit place, let alone people.
That would also add to the probabilty of a warning turning into a ticket I would assume.
It's funny because I was a police officer for 2yrs and even though my daughter's were allot younger, they have always had a great respect for LE.
I know my oldest, 16, would do whatever an officer asked of her, to a point, without question because of that.
We will dicuss it further as a family, so Thank You for all of your advice.
Terry.
CarlosDJackal
06-09-09, 21:19
What I tell people is if you do not feel safe to pull over even in a well-lit area, don't. You can wait until you get to a well-lit AND a well-populated area if need be. Just make sure you turn on your hazard lights and slow down at least to the posted speed limit.
It is also very important that you make a 9-1-1 call. Once you are in contact with the Emergency Operator, let them know where you are and of your situation. Ask them to verify if the individual who is trying to pull you over is in fact a legitimate Officer. It also does not hurt to request a second MARKED unit.
I personally would never fault a woman who followed the above steps instead of pulling right over during a traffic stop and I suspect that most Officers feelthe same. Even if you come across an Officer who doesn't believe you, your 9-1-1 call IS going to be recorded and can be presented to a Judge as evidence. JM2CW.
ADDED: They also do not have to unlock their doors or open their window any larger than to pass your credentials through. If an Officer asks them to exit the vehicle, request that a second (once again) MARKED unit on the scene before you will comply.
What I tell people is if you do not feel safe to pull over even in a well-lit area, don't. You can wait until you get to a well-lit AND a well-populated area if need be. Just make sure you turn on your hazard lights and slow down at least to the posted speed limit.
It is also very important that you make a 9-1-1 call. Once you are in contact with the Emergency Operator, let them know where you are and of your situation. Ask them to verify if the individual who is trying to pull you over is in fact a legitimate Officer. It also does not hurt to request a second MARKED unit.
I personally would never fault a woman who followed the above steps instead of pulling right over during a traffic stop and I suspect that most Officers feelthe same. Even if you come across an Officer who doesn't believe you, your 9-1-1 call IS going to be recorded and can be presented to a Judge as evidence. JM2CW.
ADDED: They also do not have to unlock their doors or open their window any larger than to pass your credentials through. If an Officer asks them to exit the vehicle, request that a second (once again) MARKED unit on the scene before you will comply.
You've said this elsewhere and I'll follow it up the same way simply because I believe it be dangerous advice. This is not a good idea and will generally end poorly. The necessary and safe steps have been covered already. Doing what you suggest would cause the situation to escalate unnecessarily more often than not.
Is there a situation in which what you suggest would be prudent? Sure. Is it what you should do in every situation or even most? Absolutely not.
Out in the woods, long way away from a lit area, plan on driving with hazards BELOW the speed limit until you get to a lit area...... Sure, get on the phone with dispatch. I'm lost on any other scenarios this would fit into.
Passing lit areas, doing the speed limit, on the phone, when I'm following in a marked unit with roof lights.......................... Good luck. It would simply take too long for the information too get to me. And even when it did, depending on the length of the time I was in pursuit, the actions you were taking with the vehicle, the actions your were taking inside the vehicle.. etc. I'm inclined to engage in a felony stop. Just because you called dispatch and said you ain't pulling over cause your scared doesn't mean I trust you aren't up to no good.
I've had chases with people using their hazards, on the phone, not going fast at all. Run the chance of getting PIT if you keep it up for too long.
Not wanting to argue, just passing on how it would go in my area and those I'm familiar with.
Obviously, every situation is different.
We can agree, for a woman at least, that a 911 call is prudent?
My daughter's curfew is 9 during the week,(summer break) 11 on fri and sat, so it should mitigate a situation to that extent somewhat.
Again, Thank you all for the help. Terry.
Obviously, every situation is different.
We can agree, for a woman at least, that a 911 call is prudent?
My daughter's curfew is 9 during the week,(summer break) 11 on fri and sat, so it should mitigate a situation to that extent somewhat.
Again, Thank you all for the help. Terry.
Out in the woods, long way away from a lit area, plan on driving with hazards BELOW the speed limit until you get to a lit area...... Sure, get on the phone with dispatch. I'm lost on any other scenarios this would fit into.
Passing lit areas, doing the speed limit, on the phone, when I'm following in a marked unit with roof lights.......................... Good luck. It would simply take too long for the information too get to me. And even when it did, depending on the length of the time I was in pursuit, the actions you were taking with the vehicle, the actions your were taking inside the vehicle.. etc. I'm inclined to engage in a felony stop. Just because you called dispatch and said you ain't pulling over cause your scared doesn't mean I trust you aren't up to no good.
I've had chases with people using their hazards, on the phone, not going fast at all. Run the chance of getting PIT if you keep it up for too long.
*****
Do you know what part of New Hampshire. I ask because I don't live far from NH, and my mother and grandparents tend to go shopping there.
mike
1859sharps
06-09-09, 23:44
I urge all you LEO to keep in mind us civvies, we KNOW this crap happens and we KNOW some of you get testy about not being listened to. And that puts us in between a rock and a hard place when there is a situation that is reasonable to doubt if a "leo" is really a leo.
I caught someone impersonating a CHP officer once. If he was directly behind you there was no way to tell. It wasn't until he passed me that I was able to figure out he was a fake. Fortunately he hadn't finished un "demilling" the car yet, and I knew what to look for. Which helped the real office justify a search of the car. When it was all over the real CHP officer said this guy had gotten his hands on stuff that is restricted, freaked the officer out. No run down to the local auto parts fake here.
The scary part was when I called 911, I had to be VERY insistent to get them to act. wasn't quite the response I was expecting.
I urge all you LEO to keep in mind us civvies, we KNOW this crap happens and we KNOW some of you get testy about not being listened to. And that puts us in between a rock and a hard place when there is a situation that is reasonable to doubt if a "leo" is really a leo.
I caught someone impersonating a CHP officer once. If he was directly behind you there was no way to tell. It wasn't until he passed me that I was able to figure out he was a fake. Fortunately he hadn't finished un "demilling" the car yet, and I knew what to look for. Which helped the real office justify a search of the car. When it was all over the real CHP officer said this guy had gotten his hands on stuff that is restricted, freaked the officer out. No run down to the local auto parts fake here.
The scary part was when I called 911, I had to be VERY insistent to get them to act. wasn't quite the response I was expecting.
Driving to a lit area shouldn't anger any LEO.
The problem is the time it would take for the message to get from you to us through the 911 system. You saw how long it took yourself. Imagine that as we are pursuing someone. Furthermore, like I mentioned, just because you've made contact with 911, and they've made contact with us, doesn't mean I trust that you aren't trying to hurt me. That leads into other tactics etc.
Can't keep repeating myself. Just wanted to get a clearer picture from one LEO out to you guys. Argue, disagree, agree, decide to do it or not.. Doesn't bother me, just wanted to help. :cool:
1859sharps
06-10-09, 00:24
For my self, and for the record. I will not ever use my expirece to justify NOT complying with a office making a traffice stop. And for 99% or more of where I drive day in and day I can make a 99% possitive call if an officer is really and officer in a reasonable time. And the chances are I will die and be dust before I run into a situation again where the question arises as to if that really is a real officer behind me.
But you can also be sure that my expeirence will always be in the back of my mind in those few and far between times when I am in an area that makes it hard to verify if those flashing lights are really a real officer.
You might be worried about who I am and what threat I might be to you. But in those rare locations and times that create the justification for questioning who you are, you can beat the same thoughts are going to be going through my head. I can only hope everyone stays calm and reasonable and as identies are verified that feeling of "threat" de escolates quickly.
So my only point and plea to all you LEO, is just keep in mind how you would act/feel if you are in an area that would raise questions as to who is "flashing" you from behind to pull over. And give us a little break if we take a little longer to pull over. Not all of us out there are looking to make your life diffecult. we just want to get home same as you.
Have to agree with ZDL's advise. Continuing to drive down the road 100 yds. to a well-lit area is okay. However, after you've been "lit up" and continue to not pull over after a mile with a cellphone glued to your ear, your asking for big problems. Our agency would either PIT or Felony stop you.
Sgt. Moonracer
06-10-09, 04:10
It helps to be aware of what you're required to stop for... in my state, police units may be marked, or unmarked, slick-topped or have a mounted light bar, but unmarked law enforcement vehicles will have, at minimum, a revolving or flashing red light and a siren. Most have a combination of red and blue lights, wig-wag headlights, and the siren.
I'll bet 99% of the impersonator stories I hear and read about in my area involve some idiot with a blue light (legal for volunteer fire/EMS etc.), or sometimes even an amber light, that some unsuspecting female motorist pulls over and stops for. Sometimes the impersonator just flashes his headlights and the woman pulls over.
If my area, if the light's not red, or red and blue, and there's no siren, be very suspicious. Your state's lighting colors may be different, but it's something to be aware of.
I drive a company car with a bright, mounted LED light bar and a loud siren behind the grill at ear level and I can't get people to pull over most days...
decodeddiesel
06-10-09, 09:52
Have to agree with ZDL's advise. Continuing to drive down the road 100 yds. to a well-lit area is okay. However, after you've been "lit up" and continue to not pull over after a mile with a cellphone glued to your ear, your asking for big problems. Our agency would either PIT or Felony stop you.
So you're saying if you're in an unmarked car and someone makes you follow them for more than 100 yards or so in order to get somewhere they feel safe you're going to make a felony stop or smash into the vehicle endangering the occupants and causing them to crash?
Are you f'ing serious?
decodeddiesel
06-10-09, 10:01
Can't keep repeating myself. Just wanted to get a clearer picture from one LEO out to you guys. Argue, disagree, agree, decide to do it or not.. Doesn't bother me, just wanted to help. :cool:
Thanks for your input ZDL.
Honestly this is something which has been very concerning to me, especially living in a large metro area where it has happened multiple times in the past. My fear is 2 fold, number one is having a fake cop robbing (or murdering) me, obviously. Secondly is driving to a safe location while being pulled over by an unmarked car and having the cop get bent out of shape and assaulting or arresting me for no good reason other then he was inconvenienced.
Judging from most of the responses it seems most LEOs would be fine with a motorist reducing speed, putting on a blinker or hazards and driving some distance to a safe place. It is concerning hearing others who would engage in a felony arrest or PIT if the motorist didn't immediately pull over no matter what.
Where I live, unless on the restricted US hwy, it would be a deputy. They usually have well marked vehicles.
On the restricted US hwy, it could be either state, or county, both are pretty easily id'd.
I'm not really worried about myself, but my wife and daughter, despite my constant reminder's, often are not as alert as I would like of there suroundings.
I just recieved a pm from redsox20, he found the link to it, and she is not the first person this has happened to in the area.
I do everything in my power to convey to any LE that I am not a threat but if this was an ongoing problem in my area I think the police would be a little more understanding of anyone wanting to be as safe as they want to be.
Judgement call by all involved. Terry.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-10-09, 10:41
On being on the phone during a stop:
Case law. Statute. SOP. Me.
As a civvy, I think it is pretty crappy that you get to record me, but I don't get to record you.
Here's a simple solution, stop pulling me over for BS traffic infractions :D
I think Decodediesel's protection instinct is kicked into high gear right now. ;)
Maybe I've misread some posts here, but I would think if you are running traffic duty is a slick or unmarked car, you would have to expect that people are going want some security and certianty as to who you are before they pull over. In the middle of nowhere, someone in an umarked car comes up to my wife or me and orders me out of the car, I'm out of there. Let the lawyers figure it out.
Not to be insulting, but I'm not getting a lot of "Protect and Serve" vibe here. I know you guys have to deal with real scum a lot, and God love you for it, and I want to you guys to come home every night - but if it comes down to my safety or your convienance, guess what I'm picking.
decodeddiesel
06-10-09, 10:51
I think Decodediesel's protection instinct is kicked into high gear right now. ;)
LOL, any day now. ;)
Where I live, unless on the restricted US hwy, it would be a deputy. They usually have well marked vehicles.
On the restricted US hwy, it could be either state, or county, both are pretty easily id'd.
I'm not really worried about myself, but my wife and daughter, despite my constant reminder's, often are not as alert as I would like of there suroundings.
I just recieved a pm from redsox20, he found the link to it, and she is not the first person this has happened to in the area.
I do everything in my power to convey to any LE that I am not a threat but if this was an ongoing problem in my area I think the police would be a little more understanding of anyone wanting to be as safe as they want to be.
Judgement call by all involved. Terry.
not in the area I meant New Hampshire but here's the link
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/19660750/detail.html
another link
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/search/form.html?la=en&stories=on&client=pub-1569153127812452&forid=1&channel=0981255474&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&hl=en&cof=GALT%3A%23000000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A000000%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3A336699%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A000000%3BGIMP%3A000000%3BFORID%3A11&sitesearch=thebostonchannel.com&mkt=&heading=&qt=SearchPolice+Impersonator+Attacks+N.H.+Woman&x=10&y=19
Copyright 2009 by TheBostonChannel.
ROCHESTER, N.H. -- A woman was pulled over on the Spaulding Turnpike on Wednesday night by a man impersonating a police officer, police said.
Investigators said the man's car had a flashing blue light, which he used to pull the driver over during rush hour near exit 14. The man then pulled out a gun and robbed the woman of her purse, police said.
"She did what most people would do," Lt. David Parenteau said. "They see a blue light behind them, and then they pull over. It's natural, and they're obeying the law."
The man was described as white, 6 feet tall, with a shaved head. He was wearing a blue, buttoned-down shirt and black pants.
"To say he looked like a police officer from the get-go, based on that and the car and the way of dress, a citizen may draw that conclusion that he appears to be a real police officer," Parenteau said.
Parenteau said the man pointed a gun through the passenger window.
"He reached in, grabbed the purse, which was on the front seat next to her, and immediately fled," he said.
Police said the man drove away, exiting to Ten Rod Road. The woman lost sight of him and pulled into a shopping complex, where she called police.
"She was obviously traumatized and upset," Parenteau said.
Police said the woman did everything right. It's also not unusual for a police officer to go to a car's passenger window, depending on traffic conditions.
Investigators are hoping to catch the man before he tries it again.
"It causes a huge problem for us," Parenteau said. "We're here to help people as well as enforce the laws, and when we have people out here trying to impersonate police and then to go beyond that and commit a crime, it certainly is very difficult for all police officers."
Police said if you're ever unsure about who's pulling you over, slow down first and call 911. The dispatcher will be able to tell you if it's a real officer. You can also pull over into a public place, if possible, and ask for identification.
decodeddiesel
06-10-09, 13:51
not in the area I meant New Hampshire but here's the link
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/19660750/detail.html
This article gives sage advise:
Police said if you're ever unsure about who's pulling you over, slow down first and call 911. The dispatcher will be able to tell you if it's a real officer. You can also pull over into a public place, if possible, and ask for identification.
On being on the phone during a stop:
As a civvy, I think it is pretty crappy that you get to record me, but I don't get to record you.
Not sure why that matters, it's all on my tape which has a specific set of rules on how it's handled. (rules that can be verified if I followed them unlike yours) Turn it on and throw it on the seat if you're that afraid of the big bad popo. :p
Here's a simple solution, stop pulling me over for BS traffic infractions :D
I'll make this public promise. You stop doing those BS traffic infractions and I will stop pulling you over for them. Also, try not to look so shady, :cool: :p
I think Decodediesel's protection instinct is kicked into high gear right now. ;)
Maybe I've misread some posts here, but I would think if you are running traffic duty is a slick or unmarked car, you would have to expect that people are going want some security and certianty as to who you are before they pull over. In the middle of nowhere, someone in an umarked car comes up to my wife or me and orders me out of the car, I'm out of there. Let the lawyers figure it out.
Unmarked or slick tops shouldn't be running a specific traffic detail imo although they do sometimes. They will pull traffic if they need to but as far as assigning them to the detail (outside drug interdiction) I don't see the point. If you run from a uniformed officer telling you to get out of the car simply because you can't ID the vehicle... You're welcome to make your own choices, just know you are putting your family in GREAT risk. "let the lawyers figure it out" won't sound as good when someone is in jail or the hospital because you wrecked.
Not to be insulting, but I'm not getting a lot of "Protect and Serve" vibe here. I know you guys have to deal with real scum a lot, and God love you for it, and I want to you guys to come home every night - but if it comes down to my safety or your convienance, guess what I'm picking.
We are here to "protect and serve" the good guys. If you decide to mask yourself as a bad guy, don't expect the treatment to be any different. I pose the same statement back to you. "if it comes down to my safety or your convenience, guess what I'm picking". That means, if you ran from me, expect to be on the receiving end of what happens to people, when they run from me. The problem for you is, the law is on my side. It's all going to be legal. It's all going to be appropriate. And you are going to get stuck with a jacked car, bruised ego, possible bruised body, bruised wallet, and if you ran with your children in the car..... Hopefully, DCF handles that issue appropriately. Dick measuring on the internet is one thing, putting yourself, the public, the officer, and your family at risk simply because "you didn't feel comfortable" is a retarded idea.
Having to deal with the notion of "fake cops" is a shit situation. Your options are limited, I UNDERSTAND THAT. However, the steps have been discussed, ad nauseam, on how to handle a stop you don't feel comfortable with. There are plenty of LEOs on this board and they are saying VERY SIMILAR things. PAY ATTENTION!!!! THAT'S A CLUE!!!
Lot's of bravado I'm picking up from a few people here. It's a ****ing traffic stop people. Christ. Mine take all of 2mins IF THAT. If I'm actually citing you, 15 mins depending. Remember, you got stopped because you violated a traffic statute. YOU CAUSED THE STOP!
I really hope you don't act that way on the side of the road. For 1 it's disrespectful, 2 it makes things worse and 3 it could be unsafe. I've said this many times on here. If you have an asshole cop, SHUT UP, do what he says, DOCUMENT, formal written complaint, follow up. repeat. It will make a difference.
Thanks for your input ZDL.
Honestly this is something which has been very concerning to me, especially living in a large metro area where it has happened multiple times in the past. My fear is 2 fold, number one is having a fake cop robbing (or murdering) me, obviously. Secondly is driving to a safe location while being pulled over by an unmarked car and having the cop get bent out of shape and assaulting or arresting me for no good reason other then he was inconvenienced.
Judging from most of the responses it seems most LEOs would be fine with a motorist reducing speed, putting on a blinker or hazards and driving some distance to a safe place. It is concerning hearing others who would engage in a felony arrest or PIT if the motorist didn't immediately pull over no matter what.
PIT and felony stop (not arrest) would all have to do with a host of factors. I can't give you an equation where x represents distanced traveled; y represents time traveled, a represents number of lit places passed; b represents ____________________
The way it's worked out in some of the minds here is not the way it WILL work out in reality. I'm stressing this because we (gun owners, men, Americans,) have a reputation to uphold and I don't want to see anyone get hurt. Everyone here is an adult, you do what ever you feel is right. Just make sure you understand that it in fact, may not be right. Wish everyone luck. Stay safe. :cool:
CarlosDJackal
06-10-09, 14:32
...I've had chases with people using their hazards, on the phone, not going fast at all. Run the chance of getting PIT if you keep it up for too long.
Not wanting to argue, just passing on how it would go in my area and those I'm familiar with.
NOTICE: I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV. What I have posted is my own opinion and not that of any organization that I am connected with so take it FWIW.
Just because you think it's a bad idea in your AO doesn't mean it's a bad idea everywhere else, does it? It also sounds like your agency's criteria for using PIT needs to be looked at. It seems like even if the circumstances are:
a) The subject is not endangering anyone on the road (i.e.: driving within the speed limit).
b) The subject has not displayed any violent tendencies or hostility towards anyone.
c) The originating encounter can be based on some minor traffic violation.
That you're agency allows you to PIT? Not in our neck of the woods!! As long as the originating encounter is based on something minor (ie: speeding, etc), I see no evidence of them trying to get rid of evidence (ie: tossing out items), and they have acknowledged my presence; I will not assume they are trying to evade arrest.
Besides that, I would rather that my loved ones be the subject of a felony stop by REAL COPS than have them become the victim of a rapist or murderer who was pretending to be one.
If your agency allows you to make such liberal use of the PIT maneuver, that's a problem your agency must deal at the resulting lawsuit(s). We don't have such a liberal policy. If we did, we've had a heck of a lot more such incidents because of the number of motorists who do not even realize we are behind them with lights blazing (which you probably know happens a lot).
It's a shame that in your case that otherwise decent law-abiding citizens will have to gamble whether you will PIT them and/or shoot them against the possibility that you're not some scumbag who bought a cruiser at auction and are trying to get them to pull over so that they can be raped, tortured, and murdered.
Are those choices really worth it for a broken tail light (or whatever reason you are pulling them over for)? JM2CW.l
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-10-09, 14:39
ZDL,
I really don't disagree with anything you said. My main comment was about an unmarked car and getting ordered out from the get go. Is that standard operating procedure, assuming you weren't coming from robbing a bank or have a warrant out? Getting pulled over and trying to hand you license and registration to a gun in your face, there's not much you can do about that scenario. Heck, I have less money in my wallet than most tickets, it would be cheaper to get pulled over by a fake cop. :D
I have a feeling that if the cop is bogus, things are going to start feeling funny real fast. :confused:
What is the penalty for impersonating a cop in most states?
decodeddiesel
06-10-09, 14:39
ZDL, the issue is that in Denver the Police routinely conduct traffic patrols in unmarked, "non-standard" cars. In other words, it's not a gray or white Crown Vic with spot lights and grill flashers. They can be everything from maroon Dodge Intrepid to blue Honda Accords, and even silver Subaru Impreza STis. I really have not seen anything like it to the extent it happens here. To top it off, I have seen cops in Denver making stops not only in vehicles like this, but dressed in polo shirts and cargo pants. :rolleyes: Obviously things like this contribute to distrust when being pulled over by the police.
I agree with you, I think traffic enforcement should be conducted with overtly marked cruisers and police in full distinctive uniforms. But it doesn't matter what I think, it is the way it is.
Also I don't think this is a penis measuring contest. For many it is a legitimate concern and the proper course of action is not very clear here as there have been LEOs (or at least people who claim to be LEOs) contradicting each other over the whole thing within the confines of this thread.
Look, I carry a loaded weapon on me at all times (CCW holder) so when I get pulled over and have to interact with a LEO I am as accommodating as possible. When I get pulled over or even suspect a LEO is looking to stop me, I immediately slow down, put on my turn signal, and look for a place to pull over which minimizes the risk from traffic to the LEO. I roll down my window all the way, turn on my map lights (if it's night time) and wait with my hands on the wheel. I inform the officer I am a CCW holder and have a weapon as soon as I can, and I always let him or her know when and where I am reaching in my car when I am ordered to retrieve my documentation. I don't try to make trouble for the police. I try my hardest to obey the law and follow the traffic rules when driving, but obviously people make mistakes, and it is often times much easier to be speeding along with a group of cars then to be the one going the speed limit. That's life.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-10-09, 14:46
Hey, wait a minute....
is anyone here a fake cop? :confused:
What's the Magpul Site saying "I trust my Mom and me, and I'm not so sure of her."
I think Decoded has too much experience being pulled over. I have more trouble with the photo radar stuff they are putting on Speer.
The last time I got 'pulled' over was when I had stopped on the side of the road in Texas to make some phone calls. I saw the LEO pull in behind me, I did the Decodediesel dance and told him I pulled over to make some calls. He looked at me (I think, thru those mirrored sunglasess) and said "God Bless you" and left. I can't get people in New Jersey to 'God Bless" me when I sneeze.
NOTICE: I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV. What I have posted is my own opinion and not that of any organization that I am connected with so take it FWIW.
Just because you think it's a bad idea in your AO doesn't mean it's a bad idea everywhere else, does it? It also sounds like your agency's criteria for using PIT needs to be looked at. It seems like even if the circumstances are:
a) The subject is not endangering anyone on the road (i.e.: driving within the speed limit).
b) The subject has not displayed any violent tendencies or hostility towards anyone.
c) The originating encounter can be based on some minor traffic violation.
That you're agency allows you to PIT? Not in our neck of the woods!! As long as the originating encounter is based on something minor (ie: speeding, etc), I see no evidence of them trying to get rid of evidence (ie: tossing out items), and they have acknowledged my presence; I will not assume they are trying to evade arrest.
Besides that, I would rather that my loved ones be the subject of a felony stop by REAL COPS than have them become the victim of a rapist or murderer who was pretending to be one.
If your agency allows you to make such liberal use of the PIT maneuver, that's a problem your agency must deal at the resulting lawsuit(s). We don't have such a liberal policy. If we did, we've had a heck of a lot more such incidents because of the number of motorists who do not even realize we are behind them with lights blazing (which you probably know happens a lot).
It's a shame that in your case that otherwise decent law-abiding citizens will have to gamble whether you will PIT them and/or shoot them against the possibility that you're not some scumbag who bought a cruiser at auction and are trying to get them to pull over so that they can be raped, tortured, and murdered.
Are those choices really worth it for a broken tail light (or whatever reason you are pulling them over for)? JM2CW.l
I briefly covered some VERY GENERAL criteria for our PIT procedure in another post. In the general description, it covers all of your concerns. :cool:
Also, a fair part of our county is forest. Our forest deputies are very aware of this and are extremely gracious in the travel time for traffic stops. They understand.
I hope everyone understands that I'm not discouraging anyone from calling 911 on ANY traffic stop. Just understand, it probably isn't going to pan out the way some of you have it set in your mind.
ZDL, the issue is that in Denver the Police routinely conduct traffic patrols in unmarked, "non-standard" cars. In other words, it's not a gray or white Crown Vic with spot lights and grill flashers. They can be everything from maroon Dodge Intrepid to blue Honda Accords, and even silver Subaru Impreza STis.
A couple of years ago, I met a JeffCo deputy driving an impressively configured maroon unmarked Chevy Tahoe. Very nice. He was kind enough to do a show-and-tell after we finished our business.
On another trip, a DPD officer had a junked-out Impala, complete with counter-culture bumperstickers and duck tape, which was as nicely equipped. It screamed "college kid out buying dope", especially a few blocks from Casa Bonita.
I really have not seen anything like it to the extent it happens here.
There are bunches, just not as apparent. San Antonio, for example.
Resort communities are good for it too. In one in the northeast, they drive sporty little Volvos that look nothing like police cars, by design.
To top it off, I have seen cops in Denver making stops not only in vehicles like this, but dressed in polo shirts and cargo pants. :rolleyes:
I'm not a fan of that look either, unless it's a special detail. When you're out and about trying to make contact with the public, you should look unmistakeably like the police.
I agree with you, I think traffic enforcement should be conducted with overtly marked cruisers and police in full distinctive uniforms. But it doesn't matter what I think, it is the way it is.
Each method of enforcement has a role. Brilliantly lit CVPIs with uniformed cherry-poppin' daddies behind the wheel are great for apprehension of the obvious violations and deterrence of the others.
When you're playing gotcha instead of encouraging voluntary compliance, it's time to go low-pro. The public needs to know that the possibility of enforcement exists anywhere.
The former should comprise the majority of your enforcement program, though. Else the public gets a little too frustrated.
ZDL, the issue is that in Denver the Police routinely conduct traffic patrols in unmarked, "non-standard" cars. In other words, it's not a gray or white Crown Vic with spot lights and grill flashers. They can be everything from maroon Dodge Intrepid to blue Honda Accords, and even silver Subaru Impreza STis. I really have not seen anything like it to the extent it happens here. To top it off, I have seen cops in Denver making stops not only in vehicles like this, but dressed in polo shirts and cargo pants. :rolleyes: Obviously things like this contribute to distrust when being pulled over by the police.
I agree with you, I think traffic enforcement should be conducted with overtly marked cruisers and police in full distinctive uniforms. But it doesn't matter what I think, it is the way it is.
Also I don't think this is a penis measuring contest. For many it is a legitimate concern and the proper course of action is not very clear here as there have been LEOs (or at least people who claim to be LEOs) contradicting each other over the whole thing within the confines of this thread.
Look, I carry a loaded weapon on me at all times (CCW holder) so when I get pulled over and have to interact with a LEO I am as accommodating as possible. When I get pulled over or even suspect a LEO is looking to stop me, I immediately slow down, put on my turn signal, and look for a place to pull over which minimizes the risk from traffic to the LEO. I roll down my window all the way, turn on my map lights (if it's night time) and wait with my hands on the wheel. I inform the officer I am a CCW holder and have a weapon as soon as I can, and I always let him or her know when and where I am reaching in my car when I am ordered to retrieve my documentation. I don't try to make trouble for the police. I try my hardest to obey the law and follow the traffic rules when driving, but obviously people make mistakes, and it is often times much easier to be speeding along with a group of cars then to be the one going the speed limit. That's life.
We have some of "those" cars in our fleet as well. Generally used in interdiction only and always with a marked unit very close by.
The process you described in which you handle your traffic stops, perfect. And most likely will get you some leniency if the LEO was inclined at the onset to write you.
If you have a Subaru behind you with flashing lights and no other marked units in sight, keep driving. I wouldn't pull over either. I don't have a problem with that at all. That wasn't being described as the situation here in most cases though.
That link is my friends wife.
I haven't talk to her, but he indicated she was frickin shocked, not really traumatized.
Anyway, traffic stops, for whatever reason, money, safety, or whatever are not the places to handle grievences.
Politeness and respect, weather warranted or not, are the best options on the side of the road.
Be careful, and thank you to all, Terry.
decodeddiesel
06-10-09, 15:01
A couple of years ago, I met a JeffCo deputy driving an impressively configured maroon unmarked Chevy Tahoe. Very nice. He was kind enough to do a show-and-tell after we finished our business.
I work a block away from a JeffCo Sheriff's station, and often times in our line of work we interact with them. They have some very very nice stuff.
On another trip, a DPD officer had a junked-out Impala, complete with counter-culture bumperstickers and duck tape, which was as nicely equipped. It screamed "college kid out buying dope", especially a few blocks from Casa Bonita.
Not Casa Bonita! LOL. Just wondering, did you see the cliff divers?
There are bunches, just not as apparent. San Antonio, for example.
Resort communities are good for it too. In one in the northeast, they drive sporty little Volvos that look nothing like police cars, by design.
I'm not a fan of that look either, unless it's a special detail. When you're out and about trying to make contact with the public, you should look unmistakeably like the police.
Each method of enforcement has a role. Brilliantly lit CVPIs with uniformed cherry-poppin' daddies behind the wheel are great for apprehension of the obvious violations and deterrence of the others.
When you're playing gotcha instead of encouraging voluntary compliance, it's time to go low-pro. The public needs to know that the possibility of enforcement exists anywhere.
The former should comprise the majority of your enforcement program, though. Else the public gets a little too frustrated.
No doubt. I can understand that. I do however think this method of enforcement is a little out of control here in Denver, especially on the I25 corridor in Denver. In the summer time I would much rather see some "cherry-popin daddies" on motorcycles than a polo shirted dude with a crew cut behind me in a Subaru with grill lights.
decodeddiesel
06-10-09, 15:05
We have some of "those" cars in our fleet as well. Generally used in interdiction only and always with a marked unit very close by.
The process you described in which you handle your traffic stops, perfect. And most likely will get you some leniency if the LEO was inclined at the onset to write you.
Glad to know the effort isn't lost on some LEOs.
If you have a Subaru behind you with flashing lights and no other marked units in sight, keep driving. I wouldn't pull over either. I don't have a problem with that at all. That wasn't being described as the situation here in most cases though.
True, however a Crown Vic from a police auction with some pep-boys lights is a lot cheaper than an STi. I should know, my first car was a 1985 Ford Interceptor I bought from the Connecticut Sate Police for $1200 at an auction. ;)
Police impersonation is just a big mess from all side of the story. I just hope myself nor anyone I know fall victim to it.
Glad to know the effort isn't lost on some LEOs.
True, however a Crown Vic from a police auction with some pep-boys lights is a lot cheaper than an STi. I should know, my first car was a 1985 Ford Interceptor I bought from the Connecticut Sate Police for $1200 at an auction. ;)
Police impersonation is just a big mess from all side of the story. I just hope myself nor anyone I know fall victim to it.
Yup. And like I said. It's a shit situation. That's why myself and other LEO's have given advice here instead of just ignoring it.
Not Casa Bonita! LOL. Just wondering, did you see the cliff divers?
No, too long a wait and too little time. Headed back to the NE to a mom and pop mexican place. Best I've had in the midwest. So good that when I had an extended layover at DIA last year, I nearly rented a car and ran out for it. Name escapes me right now.
No doubt. I can understand that. I do however think this method of enforcement is a little out of control here in Denver, especially on the I25 corridor in Denver. In the summer time I would much rather see some "cherry-popin daddies" on motorcycles than a polo shirted dude with a crew cut behind me in a Subaru with grill lights.
Motorcops on I-25 seem plentiful between Denver and Ft. Collins. Sometimes, they step out into the road and wave at you. They have no sense of humor whatsoever if you simply wave back and keep going. :D
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-10-09, 15:39
Motorcops on I-25 seem plentiful between Denver and Ft. Collins. Sometimes, they step out into the road and wave at you. They have no sense of humor whatsoever if you simply wave back and keep going. :D
I've seen them do that in Denver on side streets. Do it a lot on Alameda near University. I can't imagine the funny looks they see people make when they beckon someone to the curb. They will actually walk out into the traffic lane, not exactly very safe IMHO. At least he usually leaves his gun hot so that my radar detector sees him from aways back.
decodeddiesel
06-10-09, 16:54
No, too long a wait and too little time. Headed back to the NE to a mom and pop mexican place. Best I've had in the midwest. So good that when I had an extended layover at DIA last year, I nearly rented a car and ran out for it. Name escapes me right now.
You done right. Casa Bonita is some hot garbage.
Motorcops on I-25 seem plentiful between Denver and Ft. Collins. Sometimes, they step out into the road and wave at you. They have no sense of humor whatsoever if you simply wave back and keep going. :D
They are, but the "off brand" unmarked police cars are nearly as plentiful in my experience.
ZDL, I appreciate you and every other LEO weighing in on this. Like I said, I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls just trying to get a better understanding of the issue. Honestly I do have a better idea of what I would if I got pulled over by a police car which looked fishy.
So you're saying if you're in an unmarked car and someone makes you follow them for more than 100 yards or so in order to get somewhere they feel safe you're going to make a felony stop or smash into the vehicle endangering the occupants and causing them to crash?
Are you f'ing serious?
That's not what I'm saying. If I am behind someone with red and blue lights on plus a siren, and they continue to fail to stop after a mile plus then action will be taken to stop them. There are several factors that come in to play here and we can "what if it" to death. Is the vehicle driving at a high rate of speed endangering the public? Can I see it's a car full of scared girl scouts versus a bunch of gang bangers? I am not going to spin out a 16 y/o girl driving at 25 mph with her hazards on trying to pull into a well-lit area 100 yds. down the road obviously. However, depending on the speed and how long they fail to stop, eventually action will be taken to stop them whether stop sticks, PIT, etc.
In some ways similar to this thread " Cop Impersonator Arrested After Calling For Backup" https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31918.
In some ways similar to this thread " Cop Impersonator Arrested After Calling For Backup" https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31918.
Nice!! Too bad there all not as dumb as "Fred". :D:D
1859sharps
06-10-09, 22:21
Hadn't really planed on rejoining this thread, but after catching up on the new post felt the need to throw out one more thought.
Yes fake cops are a problem. we all know it happens. And I suspect it happens more then we realize, but yet FAR, FAR less then some seem to fear. And I think the non LEO among us need to keep this in mind. This isn't a common everyday happening. It's not an epidemic. The vast majority of us will probably never encounter this situation.
A lot of people talk being prepared for other far more probably scenarios. IF you want to be prepared for the fake cop traffic stop. Start paying attention to what the the real LEO are driving. That right there is half the "battle". When I encountered my faker, one of the give ways was the late model crown vic. It's edges were boxy. The newer crown vic being used in my area have more rounded aerodynamic styling. Hadn't even consciously thought about it until this guy tried to play CHP in front of me. There were other give ways, but it might be the little things that will help you know if the car behind you is legit. Allowing you to react within a reasonable amount of time.
And on the topic of reasonable time/distance. Gator, have a question for you. you keep using 100 yard as a "reasonable" distance. are you being literal or just trying to make a point? I hope it's an attempt to make a point. because if your being literal, and you ever end up behind me count on following for more then 100 yards. Not because I am out to defy you, cause trouble or try to claim I was worried you might be a faker. You will be following me simply because I will be dammed if I am going to compound a minor traffic ticket with a charge of reckless driving in order to stop with in 100 yards of when you start flashing your lights. But I promise you this. I will stop at the very first place that is safe that I can safely get to.
Hadn't really planed on rejoining this thread, but after catching up on the new post felt the need to throw out one more thought
And on the topic of reasonable time/distance. Gator, have a question for you. you keep using 100 yard as a "reasonable" distance. are you being literal or just trying to make a point? I hope it's an attempt to make a point. because if your being literal, and you ever end up behind me count on following for more then 100 yards. Not because I am out to defy you, cause trouble or try to claim I was worried you might be a faker. You will be following me simply because I will be dammed if I am going to compound a minor traffic ticket with a charge of reckless driving in order to stop with in 100 yards of when you start flashing your lights. But I promise you this. I will stop at the very first place that is safe that I can safely get to.
Just trying to make a point, and I agree with everything you said. Maybe I worded things wrong initially. I don't want to continue to beat a dead horse. I don't believe any LEO will fault you for travelling into the nearest lit parking lot etc. I just don't want to see anyone potentially hurt or injured because they had the idea that it was okay to continue down the road for miles and miles before stopping. And no this is not an epedemic, I've only seen this twice in my area over a 12 yr. span. Both of those were wanna-be's that thought it was there "civic duty" to aid the police in traffic enforcement, not robbers, murderers, etc.;)
decodeddiesel
06-10-09, 22:46
I've only seen this twice in my area over a 12 yr. span. Both of those were wanna-be's that thought it was there "civic duty" to aid the police in traffic enforcement, not robbers, murderers, etc.;)
God damn! That would be a damn good way to get yourself killed by some gang-banger hoodlum.
God damn! That would be a damn good way to get yourself killed by some gang-banger hoodlum.
Well, the two of them weren't exactly brain surgeons for doing what they did in the first place.:D
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