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View Full Version : Troubleshoot: M&P Failure to Eject



M4arc
01-15-07, 06:37
There seems to be a fair amount of folks experiencing this over on mp-pistol.com but I wanted to run it by you guys as well.

Basically a round fails to eject and the empty case remains in the chamber. The slide cycles and tries to feed the next round. I've experienced this myself once in the 900 rounds my M&P9 has through it and it seems to happen with the 9mms only. Most have been with WWB but all.

Has anyone here, that owns an M&P, had this happen? Does it sound like extractor tension? Any other ideas?

Robb Jensen
01-15-07, 07:02
The only time I've ever had that happen was when at the Fredericksburg match in Nov. 06 I had a Black Hills blue box 147gr MATCH round casing split in three spots, I have the casing somewhere around here. It took a squib rod to knock it out. 3.5K rounds through this one (my game M&P9) this one was a NRA Convention gun I got REALLY cheap used. It did have the earlier striker which broke while dry-firing. I've replaced it with the upgraded striker, and complete sear housing. It runs fine now. I did polish (no metal removal) the chamber and feed ramp to a like chrome finish.

Dport
01-15-07, 07:09
Sounds like either the chamber is a tad tight or the extractor spring doesn't have enough tension.

Remedy: Go back to the Glock.:p

M4arc
01-15-07, 10:57
Sounds like either the chamber is a tad tight or the extractor spring doesn't have enough tension.

Remedy: Go back to the Glock.:p

Believe me, I've thought about it because of this and the broken strikers issues but I really want to love this M&P...

If the chamber were tight I would suspect I'd see this more than once in 900 rounds, don't you think? At this point I won't rule out anything.

mark5pt56
01-15-07, 12:03
I would say that it's a failure to extract, it's not given a chance to eject the spent casing. I would relate it to the chamber dimensions and/or the extractor tension.

If that extractor is a fitted part, whoever is assembling them is taking to much material off the pad.

If not fitted, they need to look at the dimensions and increase tension.

If it is a fitted part--it's a huge frking blunder on their part.

In my opinion, typical S&W.

Mark

Hawkeye
01-15-07, 12:19
I am starting to feel like John Kerry in regards to M&P's.

M4arc
01-15-07, 12:22
Let's stick to the mechanics here :p

I don't believe the extractor is even pulling it back far enough for the ejector to do it's thing. From what I gather it just leaves the case in the chamber.

Robb Jensen
01-15-07, 12:29
I don't recall Ernest Langdon telling me that the extractor is fitted. It is installed before the Melonite finish is applied to the slide. This maybe the problem. It may be making the extractor stick/bind a little.

mark5pt56
01-15-07, 12:29
It's related to the two issues described. I doubt it's any ammo used so far. I would contact S&W and ask some questions and return it for inspection/parts replacement.

mark5pt56
01-15-07, 12:31
I don't recall Ernest Langdon telling me that the extractor is fitted. It is installed before the Melonite finish is applied to the slide. This maybe the problem. It may be making the extractor stick/bind a little.

If not, it's the tension on it. Take it apart and see if there's any burrs, etc in there.

M4arc
01-15-07, 12:40
I am starting to feel like John Kerry in regards to M&P's.

I know what you mean. My advice is to wait a little bit longer and see if the bugs (like this one) get worked out. I'm sure they will.


If not, it's the tension on it. Take it apart and see if there's any burrs, etc in there.

I'm not taking it apart. If anything it will go back to S&W at some point. I'm going to get another 500 rounds through it before I do anything else.

VA_Dinger
01-15-07, 12:45
Why would the ammo be ruled out so quickly?

You might have just got a bad few rounds that were not in spec. It's not like we inspect & measure ever round. A few bad ones might have gotten into that case. Maybe those couple of rounds would have made any 9mm auto choke.

M4arc
01-15-07, 12:48
Why would the ammo be ruled out so quickly?

You might have just got a bad few rounds that were not in spec. It's not like we inspect & measure ever round. A few bad ones might have gotten into that case. Maybe those couple of rounds would have made any 9mm auto choke.

I'm not ruling it out completely but it's happening a lot with dozens of folks over on mp-pistol.com and with several brands/manufactures of ammo.

VA_Dinger
01-15-07, 12:50
Because it's happening a lot with dozens of folks over on mp-pistol.com and with several brands/manufactures of ammo.

10-4

Has anybody contacted S&W over it?

Robb Jensen
01-15-07, 12:51
Why would the ammo be ruled out so quickly?

You might have just got a bad few rounds that were not in spec. It's not like we inspect & measure ever round. A few bad ones might have gotten into that case. Maybe those couple of rounds would have made any 9mm auto choke.

Exactly,

I have only about 400 rounds of the Winchester White box through mine. The rest has been American Eagle, Magtech and Black Hills blue box. Winchester White box Value pack from China-Mart isn't synonymous with quality ammo. Usually it works okay but isn't very accurate nor clean but it is butt cheap. The error-net can make a mountain over a mole hill and makes things seem way out of proportion, if it does it again with any ammo send it back to S&W.

M4arc
01-15-07, 12:57
10-4

Has anybody contacted S&W over it?

USPguy was going to give them a call but he hasn't posted a response yet. If it is WWB then it must be pretty widespread BUT I haven't heard anything from the glocktalk folks and they would be screaming and crying "ammo" if it was happening with Glocks.

mark5pt56
01-15-07, 13:17
The same bag of ammo that I shoot in my Glock was being used in this that day. Winchester factory fresh 9mm nato ball.

I would hold that it's not the ammo.

M4arc
01-15-07, 13:38
The error-net can make a mountain over a mole hill and makes things seem way out of proportion, if it does it again with any ammo send it back to S&W.

I agree and that is why I wanted to discuss it here where guys like you, ISHOT, MM and others can weight in and I know I'm getting the straight scoop.

Sam
01-15-07, 13:55
I don't know what all goes on the extractor of the M&P, but if it has a spring, maybe the extractor spring is weak and needs replaced?

RAM Engineer
01-15-07, 14:10
There seems to be a fair amount of folks experiencing this over on mp-pistol.com but I wanted to run it by you guys as well.

Where are you finding this on mp-pistol.com? I looked at every thread on page one (of two) in their Tech Difficulties forum and didn't see this referenced once. I saw broken strikers, slide locking back, light primer strikes, loose front sights and rattling magazines.

Not flaming, just wondering where it is mentioned over there since I don't visit as frequently as some sites.

Thanks,

Jason

ETA: I did find this: http://mp-pistol.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=674 Which seems to be related solely to WWB ammo.

Dport
01-15-07, 14:16
It still could be chamber dimensions. If they are on the tight side and you get a round that is a bit on the large side there might be problems. If S&W were trying to get more accuracy out of the gun, I could see this as a cause.

I thought about the extractor a bit more. If the extractor didn't have enough tension I would think you'd have the new round trying to feed into the spent casing.

M4arc
01-15-07, 14:42
Where are you finding this on mp-pistol.com? I looked at every thread on page one (of two) in their Tech Difficulties forum and didn't see this referenced once. I saw broken strikers, slide locking back, light primer strikes, loose front sights and rattling magazines.

Not flaming, just wondering where it is mentioned over there since I don't visit as frequently as some sites.

Thanks,

Jason

ETA: I did find this: http://mp-pistol.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=674 Which seems to be related solely to WWB ammo.

Jason, it's not in anyone place like the striker issues; the posts are scattered all over the place which is another reason why I wanted to bring it here and discuss it. Guys like Sam and GotM4 have a ton of rounds through theirs so I figured they could weight in and we could get the full scoop.


I thought about the extractor a bit more. If the extractor didn't have enough tension I would think you'd have the new round trying to feed into the spent casing.

That is exactly what happened.

mark5pt56
01-15-07, 14:44
It still could be chamber dimensions. If they are on the tight side and you get a round that is a bit on the large side there might be problems. If S&W were trying to get more accuracy out of the gun, I could see this as a cause.

I thought about the extractor a bit more. If the extractor didn't have enough tension I would think you'd have the new round trying to feed into the spent casing.

That's what ocurred.

M4arc
01-15-07, 14:47
I don't know what all goes on the extractor of the M&P, but if it has a spring, maybe the extractor spring is weak and needs replaced?

Could be but it only has 900 rounds through it at this point.

Dport
01-15-07, 14:49
The rim of the spent brass was intact?

M4arc
01-15-07, 14:50
The rim of the spent brass was intact?

We didn't find it :(

Dport
01-15-07, 14:53
We didn't find it :(
OK now I'm confused. I though the spent casing was in the chamber when the new round was fed in?

M4arc
01-15-07, 15:01
OK now I'm confused. I though the spent casing was in the chamber when the new round was fed in?

Well when we cleared it it fell onto the ground and there was about 10,000 other spent cases laying there as well. So, we weren't able to identify which one was the culprit.

Dport
01-15-07, 15:09
Well when we cleared it it fell onto the ground and there was about 10,000 other spent cases laying there as well. So, we weren't able to identify which one was the culprit.
How did you clear it? Forcibly or did racking the slide do it?

M4arc
01-15-07, 15:16
How did you clear it? Forcibly or did racking the slide do it?

Kind of a mixture of both. The slide had to be forcably pulled and locked back then the gun was held barrel up and shaken to free the empty case. It just so happened that when it fell we didn't catch it.

Dport
01-15-07, 15:33
Kind of a mixture of both. The slide had to be forcably pulled and locked back then the gun was held barrel up and shaken to free the empty case. It just so happened that when it fell we didn't catch it.
So you didn't try to drop the mag and rack the slide a couple of times to see if the extractor would remove it? But it did fall out with some shaking?

Really sounds like extractor tension to me, but I'm no 'smith.

M4arc
01-15-07, 15:38
Yes it did fall out with some shaking and did not require any prying or pushing.

Well I'll get some more rounds through it and see if it happens again. This time I'll pay particular attention to the rim and case.

mark5pt56
01-15-07, 15:52
Yes it did fall out with some shaking and did not require any prying or pushing.

Well I'll get some more rounds through it and see if it happens again. This time I'll pay particular attention to the rim and case.

M4arc, what you saw was me working the slide twice to clear it, came out on the first rack.

I was shooting it on some steel. I pulled the trigger, nothing, popped the wrist back, saw the malfunction(fail to extract, new one on it's ass)
immediately locked the slide, pulled the mag, worked the slide to clear the case, inserted mag, racked it and shot.

As stated, didn't take the time to look at the case or where it went.

Yojimbo
01-19-07, 09:46
Any updates on finding the root cause of this issue?

militarymoron
01-19-07, 09:57
this might be related, or might not.
i was at the range yesterday and had some probs with my M&P which were ammunition related, and yet, not completely.
yes, i was shooting crap ammo - i've a couple of cases of old wolf with the red lacquer that i bought years ago that i'm burning through, so that's what i took with me. i don't shoot wolf out of my rifles anymore unless it's an AK, but i haven't had any probs with wolf 9mm out of my G19 and P226.

first magazine when through fine, then suddenly nothing. striker didn't fire. i looked and noticed that the slide was VERY slightly out of battery. tried to rack it and couldn't. set the gun down for a minute pointed downrange, as there was a live round in there. tried racking the slide by pressing the front against a pice of wood, still pointed downrange. wouldn't budge.
got a screwdriver on my multitool - it's got a very sharp point, and wedged it between the barrel hood and face of the slide, and slowly pried them apart. the extractor popped off the rim and i locked the slide back. i had to use the screwdriver to pry the round out. took a look at it, and nothing seemed out of the ordinary. i fit checked several other rounds in the chamber and they were all tight at the front.
re-assembled the gun and tried it again. went through another mag and the same thing happened. fixed it and put the gun away.
when i got home, after cleaning the pistol, i checked some other rounds in the chamber. all the brass ammo fit in perfectly, no binding, and would drop out. all the wolf would be tight, and would not fall out, and had to be extracted with a fingernail. so, i figured, it's just wolf.
but i haven't had problems with wolf in my G19, P226 or browning HP, so it's not entirely an ammunition problem. so i brought those out too. i checked the wolf in those chambers and there was no tightness nor binding, and all the wolf rounds would slide back out easily, however, the wolf ammo has less of a taper to the case than the brass ammo, and felt very slightly tighter. i also compared the relative 'looseness' of a brass-cased round in all the chambers, and the M&P one had less 'play' than the others.
without any gages, what i gathered from this is that the chamber of my M&P is very slightly tighter than the ones on my other pistols. that, combined with the red lacquer on the wolf ammo and less taper ended up being a problem combination.

edited to add - headspace dimension might also contribute to the problem i had - if it's a bit shorter, the additional length of the wolf case added due to the red lacquer might have prevented the case from fully seating. it'd be very interesting if someone with the right tools/gages would measure the M&P chamber dimensions and headspace and compare it to some others like glock, sig etc, and see if it indeed is a bit tighter

Yojimbo
01-19-07, 10:32
MM,

Very interesting, thanks for sharing!

In your case it definitely sounds like a tighter than average chamber. I would be interested to see the head space measurements on the M&P as compared to the Glock and Sig...

I will probably wait a bit longer so all the bugs are worked out before I get an M&P.

militarymoron
01-19-07, 10:41
i'm not sure i'd consider it a bug (in my particular situation), and not necessarily a strike against it if it doesn't function well with wolf :)
it's been 100% with brass cased ammo so far.

matt7184
01-19-07, 23:50
Exactly,
The error-net can make a mountain over a mole hill and makes things seem way out of proportion, if it does it again with any ammo send it back to S&W.

I agree totally. I've had a few thousand rounds through the M&Ps and have not had any issue after the MPAs nor with my personal 9mms.

Everyone should also realize more people will be willing to report problems than those who are reporting guns that are good to go. It is human nature and goes for cars, tools, etc.

Harv
01-20-07, 01:10
I agree on the internet thing... if it makes anyone feel better, during the Holiday break I went out and put 200 rds thru my G17 and I had a FTE....:eek: No clue why... There guns..... shit happens... Just be prepared for it....

UPSguy
01-20-07, 20:24
I have had mine 2 weeks and have 800 rounds through it in two 400 round sessions. I have had 5 failures to eject with WWB. Many people want to say this is an ammo related problem. The problem I have with that is I have shot thousands and thousands of rounds of WWB in other pistols with 0 FTEs. I have not talked to S&W about this issue yet as my phone call with them got cut short after the magazine issue, I think they thought I was done and hung up. I like the gun enough I am buying a second next week and we will then see if this one does it too. There have been no issues with Remington or S&B ammo.

SuicideHz
01-20-07, 22:23
You are buying a second to see if the first was at fault? Wow...

UPSguy
01-20-07, 22:45
You are buying a second to see if the first was at fault? Wow...
Not exactly. I think that for some reason the M&P and WWB don't get along. I like the M&P well enough that I am thinking it is going to replace my trusted HK as my carry gun. I am going to have one set up for bedside duties and one set up for carry/ IDPA games. Should it not prove trustworthy I will rejoin the leagues that say it just another "F" S&W automatic.