View Full Version : Armalite turning over a new leaf?
To many, Armalite = less than stellar quality. This has been my opinion for some time as well. Recently, a customer brought in a newer Armalite and I looked it over closely as I was curious if they were making them better now. Some of the things I found were SHOCKING! Here is the short list:
4150 barrel steel (chrome lined)
M4 Barrel extension
M4 upper receiver (no dremel'd feed ramps)
Black insert in the extractor
Crane O-Ring installed in the extractor
6 Position, Mil-Spec Receiver Extension
This intrigued me (especially from a lower priced AR manufacturer) so when I went to the Shot Show, I spent some quality time at the Armalite booth. I managed to get ahold of the production manager and asked a bunch of technical questions. I basically wanted to verify that the weapon that was in my shop was standard and not some fluke of nature!
They verified that all the above items are STANDARD! I was very impressed with how they are doing things now and plan on picking up their barrels for sure and maybe their complete weapons.
C4
That's good that other manufacturers are listening to the market demand and delivering what the consumers want.
The ones that get hooked on their own thoughts are getting left behind slowly.
Of course, there will always be ones made to suite the occasional plinker and lower end market.
Mark
Hum, this is very good news!
The more opinions we have the better :)
I was shocked when you told me this at SHOT. Definitely a big move in the right direction. If they stick with this, they could regain a huge part of the market.
I wish you had posted this prior to SHOT, Grant. I walked right through the Armalite booth without even pausing to look at their rifles. I took a brief look at their pistols, and was on my way.
Robb Jensen
01-15-07, 12:24
I have yet to experience good quality from Armalite especially with their AR10s :( but it sounds like their AR15s are being better built now.
We sell very few Armalite AR15 at our shop mostly due to their prices and the way they build them. To get a flat top AR15 from Armalite, (not special order) it'll have a flat top gas block (non-taper pinned) instead of a standard FSB. So you get a flat top AR with no sights for the same roughly the same price as a Bushmaster, RRA or S&W which will have sights (and usually a few upgraded options) all else being equal (chrome-lined bbl etc). Of the ones we sell I like the S&W and Colts the best. If LMT wasn't weird and sold complete ARs for the civilian market we would probably stock them too.
I wish you had posted this prior to SHOT, Grant. I walked right through the Armalite booth without even pausing to look at their rifles. I took a brief look at their pistols, and was on my way.
Sorry. I have been trying to remember all the things I learned at Shot.
C4
I have yet to experience good quality from Armalite especially with their AR10s :( but it sounds like their AR15s are being better built now.
We sell very few Armalite AR15 at our shop mostly due to their prices and the way they build them. To get a flat top AR15 from Armalite, (not special order) it'll have a flat top gas block (non-taper pinned) instead of a standard FSB. So you get a flat top AR with no sights for the same roughly the same price as a Bushmaster, RRA or S&W which will have sights (and usually a few upgraded options) all else being equal (chrome-lined bbl etc). Of the ones we sell I like the S&W and Colts the best. If LMT wasn't weird and sold complete ARs for the civilian market we would probably stock them too.
They have a QTY dealer program that makes the prices at around the same as BM. I may special order them with in certain configs that are better than what they offer.
C4
I wish you had posted this prior to SHOT, Grant. I walked right through the Armalite booth without even pausing to look at their rifles. I took a brief look at their pistols, and was on my way.
Sales are so affected by prior "knowledge" of a product. I bet you said "hmm, whatever" as you walked by.
That's what happens when you may have, may have turned out what may not meet expectations.
This is good news.
It's nice to see another American company get there acted together. Especially since I'm interested in an AR10.
Sales are so affected by prior "knowledge" of a product. I bet you said "hmm, whatever" as you walked by.
That's what happens when you may have, may have turned out what may not meet expectations.
Agree and is what I would have done if it weren't for a customer coming into the shop and showing me his Armalite.
C4
carshooter
01-15-07, 13:08
Grant,
Did Armalite comment on Bolt Quality or uprgrades at all?
I was aware of some of the other upgrades you mentioned, but wonder if they've changed their bolts.
I actually had the pleasure of meeting and chatting with Mr. Westrum after dinner one night in Washington DC. He seemed like a very knowledgeable man and was extremely nice and generous with his time.
Ever since then I've wanted to buy an Armalite and now I'm out of excuses :D
It's good to see a product that will be worthy of the name.
Grant,
Did Armalite comment on Bolt Quality or uprgrades at all?
I was aware of some of the other upgrades you mentioned, but wonder if they've changed their bolts.
I asked about their bolts and said that they do NOT make them in house (which is fairly normal). They also do not HPT/MPI them (again, normal in the lower end AR market).
C4
Robb Jensen
01-15-07, 15:52
Oh I forgot one other thing. On the 3 older Armalite AR15s where I've used the Ned Christiansen neck and throat reamer, the reamer removed a lot of metal. Not as bad as a Model 1 sales barrel but a lot. This leads me to believe that the chamber is no where near a 5.56mm NATO. Probably a .223 Rem chamber.
I did two coworkers Armalite barrels because they both were blowing primers using Federal XM193 and Radway Green. The popping primers stopped after the reaming which leads me to believe there are (or were) using .223 chambers. I think my 11.5" free-ninety-free barrel was a .223 chamber too. The reamer took about almost 10min to cut through the neck and throat. It ran pretty good but I reamed is just in case. Since I have 4K rounds of Radway, 1800 rounds of Guatamalan and some of each will be blasted though it. Since then I've done all but the Noveske barrel in our ARs. The only ones that reamer didn't seem to do much at all on was a Colt and a LMT barrel.
I have a Armalite M15A2 for demo right now and it runs very well.
I just installed one of their lpk and the quality is great ! even comes with a fancy brownish plastic box.
To many, Armalite = less than stellar quality. This has been my opinion for some time as well. Recently, a customer brought in a newer Armalite and I looked it over closely as I was curious if they were making them better now. Some of the things I found were SHOCKING! Here is the short list:
4150 barrel steel (chrome lined)
M4 Barrel extension
M4 upper receiver (no dremel'd feed ramps)
Black insert in the extractor
Crane O-Ring installed in the extractor
6 Position, Mil-Spec Receiver Extension
This intrigued me (especially from a lower priced AR manufacturer) so when I went to the Shot Show, I spent some quality time at the Armalite booth. I managed to get ahold of the production manager and asked a bunch of technical questions. I basically wanted to verify that the weapon that was in my shop was standard and not some fluke of nature!
They verified that all the above items are STANDARD! I was very impressed with how they are doing things now and plan on picking up their barrels for sure and maybe their complete weapons.
C4
Grant,
I just purchased an Armalite AR10 Carbine and I haven't had time to even look at it. Its been sitting in my safe for a week. After seeing this thread, low and behold, it has most of what you listed, as far as I can tell.
6 Position MilSpec Buffer Tube: (Vltor on Factory Tube is a good fit)
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r193/Crash_1/DSC01152.jpg
M4 Feed Ramps:
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r193/Crash_1/DSC01143.jpg
Crane O-Ring:
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r193/Crash_1/DSC01153.jpg
Staked Gas Key:
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r193/Crash_1/DSC01156.jpg
I'm not sure what "the black insert in the extractor" is. It also came with the 2-stage trigger.
Crash the staking job on that carrier is worthless:( . There should be metal from the key touching the screws so as to keep them from moving. I would recomend having them properly done.
Guys I don't think Armalite uses Crane o-rings. They use a buna rubber o-ring like you can get in a hardware store. http://www.armalite.com/library/techNotes/tnote39.htm
TECHNICAL NOTE 39: AR-10 Extractor Ring Improves Performance
BACKGROUND:
AR-10 rifles have proven to be exceptionally durable and reliable. One of the reasons is that the company has continually monitored field tests, customer service calls, and customer suggestions to learn what improvements can be made to the rifles.
TESTS:
ArmaLite has conducted a series of evaluations of the AR-10 and –15 extractor springs. The extractor spring has always been one of the most frequently replaced parts on the AR-15 or M-16 rifles, and the AR-10 is no different. Life expectancy of the M-16 extractor spring was improved by the addition of a buna rubber plug within the spring. A review of government documents relating to this change, and customer suggestions concerning the AR-10, has led the company to test a special buna rubber ring that fits outside the AR-10 extractor spring and reinforces it. Tests were conducted by in-house production and QA staff, and by volunteer owners recruited from the Internet.
RESULTS:
Test results confirm that reinforcement of the extractor spring by the new ring improves extractor performance. We expect that the life expectancy of the extractor spring is also improved. We have added the part to the design of our rifles, and all AR-10 rifles shipped after this date will include the ring. There is no plan to install such a ring on M-15 series rifles at this time.
INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS:
1. Remove the extractor from the bolt. (While it’s out, look at the bolt and see if it has a small "C" stamped on it. The Lot C bolts were recalled last year because of breakage, and some may still be in private hands. If you have a Lot C bolt, send it in for replacement. Bolts with no marks, or with other letters, are not recalled.)
2. Slip the ring over the spring. It will probably look crooked when installed. This is no problem.
3. Reinstall the extractor and reassemble the rifle.
If you install the new extractor spring, remember that the larger end goes in the extractor, and the plug goes inside the spring.
A new extractor spring, plug, and extractor ring will be provided to all AR-10 owners upon request. To receive the new part, the customer need only send a self addressed stamped envelope (SASE) to ArmaLite. Note: Internet requests cannot be processed.
For accounting purposes, the rifle’s serial number must be noted on the back of the SASE. The new parts will be dispatched within one workday of receipt of the SASE.
Robb Jensen
01-15-07, 20:53
I have a feeling that Armalite is going to loose their suit against RRA. Just as Colt lost it's suit against Bushmaster.
http://www.qctimes.com/articles/2007/01/15/news/local/doc45ab1e1814162239038839.txt
To many, Armalite = less than stellar quality. This has been my opinion for some time as well. Recently, a customer brought in a newer Armalite and I looked it over closely as I was curious if they were making them better now. Some of the things I found were SHOCKING! Here is the short list:
4150 barrel steel (chrome lined)
M4 Barrel extension
M4 upper receiver (no dremel'd feed ramps)
Black insert in the extractor
Crane O-Ring installed in the extractor
6 Position, Mil-Spec Receiver Extension
This intrigued me (especially from a lower priced AR manufacturer) so when I went to the Shot Show, I spent some quality time at the Armalite booth. I managed to get ahold of the production manager and asked a bunch of technical questions. I basically wanted to verify that the weapon that was in my shop was standard and not some fluke of nature!
They verified that all the above items are STANDARD! I was very impressed with how they are doing things now and plan on picking up their barrels for sure and maybe their complete weapons.
C4
Grant, just out of curiosity, how can you tell by examaning a barrel that it is made from 4150 and not 4140?
That's some pretty good news....adds another good option to the party...
many thanks...
Crash the staking job on that carrier is worthless:( . There should be metal from the key touching the screws so as to keep them from moving. I would recomend having them properly done.
Oh, I wouldn't say that is worthless as I can see metal touching the bolts. If you want to see horrible, I will send you some pics. ;)
C4
Guys I don't think Armalite uses Crane o-rings. They use a buna rubber o-ring like you can get in a hardware store. http://www.armalite.com/library/techNotes/tnote39.htm
TECHNICAL NOTE 39: AR-10 Extractor Ring Improves Performance
BACKGROUND:
AR-10 rifles have proven to be exceptionally durable and reliable. One of the reasons is that the company has continually monitored field tests, customer service calls, and customer suggestions to learn what improvements can be made to the rifles.
TESTS:
ArmaLite has conducted a series of evaluations of the AR-10 and –15 extractor springs. The extractor spring has always been one of the most frequently replaced parts on the AR-15 or M-16 rifles, and the AR-10 is no different. Life expectancy of the M-16 extractor spring was improved by the addition of a buna rubber plug within the spring. A review of government documents relating to this change, and customer suggestions concerning the AR-10, has led the company to test a special buna rubber ring that fits outside the AR-10 extractor spring and reinforces it. Tests were conducted by in-house production and QA staff, and by volunteer owners recruited from the Internet.
RESULTS:
Test results confirm that reinforcement of the extractor spring by the new ring improves extractor performance. We expect that the life expectancy of the extractor spring is also improved. We have added the part to the design of our rifles, and all AR-10 rifles shipped after this date will include the ring. There is no plan to install such a ring on M-15 series rifles at this time.
INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS:
1. Remove the extractor from the bolt. (While it’s out, look at the bolt and see if it has a small "C" stamped on it. The Lot C bolts were recalled last year because of breakage, and some may still be in private hands. If you have a Lot C bolt, send it in for replacement. Bolts with no marks, or with other letters, are not recalled.)
2. Slip the ring over the spring. It will probably look crooked when installed. This is no problem.
3. Reinstall the extractor and reassemble the rifle.
If you install the new extractor spring, remember that the larger end goes in the extractor, and the plug goes inside the spring.
A new extractor spring, plug, and extractor ring will be provided to all AR-10 owners upon request. To receive the new part, the customer need only send a self addressed stamped envelope (SASE) to ArmaLite. Note: Internet requests cannot be processed.
For accounting purposes, the rifle’s serial number must be noted on the back of the SASE. The new parts will be dispatched within one workday of receipt of the SASE.
So far, the one in my customers weapon has help up just fine.
C4
Grant, just out of curiosity, how can you tell by examaning a barrel that it is made from 4150 and not 4140?
I am that good. ;)
I called them the next day and verified the barrel steel.
C4
baffle Stack
01-16-07, 11:59
I am that good. ;)
I called them the next day and verified the barrel steel.
C4
You mean to say you're not a Jedi:confused:
Alpha Sierra
01-16-07, 12:32
There should be metal from the key touching the screws so as to keep them from moving.
There is.
Sounds good so far but was the FSB pinned on or were they clamped on with cross bolts?
Alpha Sierra
01-16-07, 12:37
Guys I don't think Armalite uses Crane o-rings. They use a buna rubber o-ring like you can get in a hardware store. What's the Crane o-ring made of? EPDM? Viton? Something else?
Buna-N rubber is by far the most common o-ring material. I would be surprised in the Crane o ring is made of something else.
What's the Crane o-ring made of? EPDM? Viton? Something else?
Buna-N rubber is by far the most common o-ring material. I would be surprised in the Crane o ring is made of something else.
The o-rings I got from Sully were made of Viton. Where he gets them, no idea, but I doubt Crane would specify a low quality material. I'd be surprised if they weren't Viton, or at least some chemical and heat resistant material.
You mean to say you're not a Jedi:confused:
"These aren't the droids your looking for."
C4
Sounds good so far but was the FSB pinned on or were they clamped on with cross bolts?
FSB's are pinned.
C4
Oh, I wouldn't say that is worthless as I can see metal touching the bolts. If you want to see horrible, I will send you some pics. ;)
C4
My apologies. With my piss poor monitor it looks like the staking tool just put marks on the key with out touching the bolts.I see a black ring between the stake and the bolt. Sorry.
My apologies. With my piss poor monitor it looks like the staking tool just put marks on the key with out touching the bolts.I see a black ring between the stake and the bolt. Sorry.
LOL!
You have one of those monitors too? One of mine at home is so dreadful it makes surfing any site with pictures impossible :D
The o-rings I got from Sully were made of Viton. Where he gets them, no idea, but I doubt Crane would specify a low quality material. I'd be surprised if they weren't Viton, or at least some chemical and heat resistant material.
Just as an FYI, Crane buys them from one factory in CA. That is where I buy mine.
C4
In most gear related threads, I am the unlucky one. However, in this one I must say that I have had good success with ArmaLite M15 lowers, and AR10's.
My SBR'ed ArmaLite lower has never failed me at two EAG Tactical classes or a 10-8 class. Not sure how much harder I can run it, but no issues.
Of course we all know that my stories, and other anecdotal evidence don't amount to much at all. Even in combinations and summarization.
All it means it that we have some neat stories to share.
With the exception of an older AR-10 I bought from Quantico Arms way back, all my various AR-10's have also been flawless. Not nearly the round counts as the "little ones" see, but quite a bit on the one favorite one I use.
My current favorite AR-10 is wearing a barrel from John Murphy's troublesome AR-10. I simply took off a 20" barrel and added John's 16" infantry weight barrel.
Over 1500rds later, it has not choked due to ArmaLite issues. Including 250rds of suppressed fire.
It did CHOKE after the trigger group shot loose. The reason it shot loose? I installed the trigger group incorrectly. :( 5 minute fix, no more issues.
In short, I have used ArmaLite lowers for some time. With great success.
A milspec receiver extension was a simple swap out -- a non-issue.
I'm glad to see them getting on-board with current upper technology. :D
Did you look at the Super SASS Grant?
Alpha Sierra
01-16-07, 17:09
The o-rings I got from Sully were made of Viton. Where he gets them, no idea, but I doubt Crane would specify a low quality material. I'd be surprised if they weren't Viton, or at least some chemical and heat resistant material.
Buna-N is highly resistant to hydrocarbons, so no problems there. Rated temp is 250 F. Not sure if that is enough temp resistance for the application. Probably not.
If temps run hotter, Viton would be a better choice.
That does not make Buna-N a "low quality" material. Just the wrong material for the application.
You can get low quality o rings made of any material, including Viton.
Forgive me for being pedantic, but as an engineer I can't help it. ;)
Did you look at the Super SASS Grant?
A little bit.
C4
Robb Jensen
01-16-07, 20:29
In most gear related threads, I am the unlucky one. However, in this one I must say that I have had good success with ArmaLite M15 lowers, and AR10's.
My SBR'ed ArmaLite lower has never failed me at two EAG Tactical classes or a 10-8 class. Not sure how much harder I can run it, but no issues.
That's interesting SHIVAN, I sometimes think you are Mr. Murphy in sheeps clothing! :p I think you can probably make an anvil not work right!
Are they still 1:9 twist? It would be nice to see another 1:7 offering out there.
Sounds good so far but was the FSB pinned on or were they clamped on with cross bolts?
I'm not sure if you were interested in the M-15 or the AR10, but the AR10 is still clamped with the picatinny gas block.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r193/Crash_1/DSC01161.jpg
What's the Crane o-ring made of? EPDM? Viton? Something else?
Buna-N rubber is by far the most common o-ring material. I would be surprised in the Crane o ring is made of something else.
i beleive a viton o ring is the best grade of rubber o ring money can buy.
Alpha Sierra
01-17-07, 12:10
i beleive a viton o ring is the best grade of rubber o ring money can buy.
The best is solely application specific. There are applications where silicone o-rings are the best. There are also applications where Buna is the best material.
Are they still 1:9 twist? It would be nice to see another 1:7 offering out there.
Yes.
C4
FlyAndFight
01-17-07, 16:46
Good to see quality levels going up, all around. Gives us another good product to select from.
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