View Full Version : Foul Weather Handguns
Greetings,
Situation: You paid a large no-refundable deposit to the latest/greatest training facility. It runs an outdoor range. The forecast is for miserable weather- heavy rain, etc. It's a serious course, 800+ rounds, multiple shooting positions, hundreds of presentations. you and your gear is gonna get wet and dirty, and probably get some 'character' along the way:D.
Leave the safe queens at home. Whatcha taking and why? (Handgun and carry gear).
Just a fun discussion.
BOSS
matthewdanger
06-10-09, 10:45
I would take the same one I would take if it were sunny and 70 degrees out. The one I carry. The one that I need to know inside and out.
For me that would be a Glock in some flavor - probably a G17.
John_Wayne777
06-10-09, 10:45
I've been through the exact conditions you describe with:
Custom 1911's
Beretta 92FS
Glock 9mm
M&P 9
M&P .45
I only train with what I'm going to be carrying, generally. If I wouldn't take weapon X to a course with the conditions you describe I would never carry it.
I'd run a "to hell and back" Sig with hogue grips for a little extra tackiness (maybe even take some light sand paper to them) in a blackhawk serpa cqc holster attached to the drop rig with a piece of grip tape on the level 2 safety release button
just my $0.02, ymmv. Enjoy the class!
I've been to training classes in snow, rain, mud, wind...even had one interrupted by a tornado warning. I've used a variety of handguns and long guns. Honestly, if I owned a firearm that wouldn't operate in those conditions, I'd ditch it.
For me, the only thing I change due to weather is my clothing.
Sounds like Glock weather.
I'd take the gun I carry every day because if it's going to have problems in those environments, I'd like to know it.
Business_Casual
06-10-09, 12:19
Haven't the US Armed Forces answered this one pretty well?
M9, M1911, M11, Mark 23, etc.?
M_P
Haven't the US Armed Forces answered this one pretty well?
M9, M1911, M11, Mark 23, etc.?
M_P
This isn't a general 'whats the best, most reliable handgun' question.
This is more personal--from what YOU have. Many, if not most, owners have something like 'nice' guns--nickle plated Pythons, engraved 1911's, pristing HiPowers, etc etc etc. Those aren't seen to often out in foul weather.
What have YOU got, that if you were going to have to operate out in foul weather, you'd take? What do you have that you'd actually subject to nasty operating conditions--not just carry under your rain coat, but actually take out and use, alot, in inclement weather?
There are those that will hammer nails with a nice 1911. Others that wouldn't take anything but a tupperware piece (Glock, XD, etc).
What about you?
As stated, just a fun discussion.
BOSS
any firearm, properly lubed, would be fine.
if it isn't then it won't be fine in perfect conditions either (IMO)
I've been to training classes in snow, rain, mud, wind...even had one interrupted by a tornado warning. I've used a variety of handguns and long guns. Honestly, if I owned a firearm that wouldn't operate in those conditions, I'd ditch it.
For me, the only thing I change due to weather is my clothing.
Sounds like you've got some valuable experience to share.
Care to relate WHAT you used? Glocks, 1911's, Sigs, ??? How did they perform.
If you had to pick one, what would it be?
BOSS
any firearm, properly lubed, would be fine.
if it isn't then it won't be fine in perfect conditions either (IMO)
Agreed. But not the point of the discussion.
Example: I would probably suggest that a guy who showed up with that prized, pristine nickle plated Python his grand daddy passed on to him might want to reconsider before beating the snot out of it in a high intensity training course in foul weather on a muddy, rocky outdoor range. It would be a waste of a beautiful firearm IMHO.
But I guess to each his own.
BOSS
any glock or m&p, properly lubed, would be fine.
if it isn't then it won't be fine in perfect conditions either (IMO)
Corrected it for you. :D
In all seriousness, i dont buy guns so they can sit on shelves. Plenty of people own safe queens but they also dont bring them to training classes. They generally also dont carry those weapons either. A safe queen is a safe queen. Any pistol a smart person chooses to carry would be the pistol they would be comfortable shooting under any conditions with.
My XDm 40 would be there with me!
Either my Glock 19 or my M&P 40. Both of them have run with no problems in conditions similar to what you described. I've abused the shit out of them both (sometimes intentionally) and have not been able to stop either of them yet.
JiMfraRED1911
06-10-09, 13:26
GLOCK 19 or my 1911.
I would train with whatever gun you carry, including your regular holster... I ran a 1911 in a class with Vickers during a hurricane last Sept and the gun didn't even know it was raining. ;)
Agreed. But not the point of the discussion.
Example: I would probably suggest that a guy who showed up with that prized, pristine nickle plated Python his grand daddy passed on to him might want to reconsider before beating the snot out of it in a high intensity training course in foul weather on a muddy, rocky outdoor range. It would be a waste of a beautiful firearm IMHO.
But I guess to each his own.
BOSS
ok, no I wouldn't bring a nice, shiny, stainless, 1911 Champion to a class. :D
I would bring my M&P9
decodeddiesel
06-10-09, 13:45
Either my M&P9 or my Armory Kote'd 1911 in my daily CCW rigs.
Glock...G17, G19, or G21.
Alternatively, Ruger P89
Best, Jon
Business_Casual
06-10-09, 14:06
I would probably suggest that a guy who showed up with that prized, pristine nickle plated Python his grand daddy passed on to him might want to reconsider before beating the snot out of it in a high intensity training course in foul weather on a muddy, rocky outdoor range.
What course requires you to "beat the snot out of" your sidearm?
I haven't been to that one yet.
M_P
What course requires you to "beat the snot out of" your sidearm?
I haven't been to that one yet.
M_P
you got ripped off .........
J/K :D
Glocks, 1911's, Sigs, ???
Yes.
How did they perform.
Same as they do when the sun is shining. Which is what you'd expect from any decent firearm.
If you had to pick one, what would it be?
No preference. They all do the job.
LittleRedToyota
06-10-09, 15:33
glock 17 for me...regardless of weather. (same holster as always, as well...which is a comptac c-tac in my case. same flashlight...surefire G2, etc., etc.)
they have all been through that weather...along with snow, freezing temps, very hot temps, etc. etc...and performed flawlessly.
they even survive my running with them...and drenching them in sweat (which is worse than rain because of the salt content)...on a routine basis.
in my experience, glock 17s just work...all the time in all conditions. (that is, of course, not to say no G17 has ever failed...and it is also not to say there are not other ultrareliable guns out there.)
Any weapon that you would reasonably consider for duty/self-defensive purposes has most likely been tested in conditions far more strenous than you are likely to encounter. Accordingly, carry whatever you would otherwise carry. If something goes wrong, you'll either learn to fix it when nothing but pride is on the line or learn a valuable lesson about that particular weapon (i.e. whether you really want to carry it or not).
Glock 17s, ALS holsters.
Colt ARs.
Both have worked well in cold/hot/dry/wet/dusty classes.
One of my Glocks once rode for several hours in various levels of flood waters while I helped evac folks from a local flood. I worried about alot of things that night, whether or not my pistol could handle it wasn't one of those worries.
BOSS,
i've run my duty/ccw plus my teaching guns in all kinds of weather, just wipe them down and relube them at the of each training day and you should be alright.
I shoot my HKs well. I love my HKs. My HKs can play in rain with me! :D
I'd take my P2000 9mm or my USP .45 (if I had a good holster for it, and if I could afford 800+ rds of .45)
mattpittinger
06-11-09, 14:15
I have a Kimber of Oregon Custom Classic that Jim Clark worked over. It has survived everything I have thrown at it. I run it in a Black-Tech IWB holster. Hasn't failed me yet.
Glock 17, 19 or a Sig 226, 228.
That is So funny, we just had this conversation today after watching certain platform's go down one right after another during a pretty demanding 5 day course and it was only day 3.
We all agreed with Glock's being the one we would all chose to carry.
I would choose my $550 G17 over any high price 1911.
QuietShootr
06-11-09, 17:11
I've been through the exact conditions you describe with:
Custom 1911's
Beretta 92FS
Glock 9mm
M&P 9
M&P .45
I only train with what I'm going to be carrying, generally. If I wouldn't take weapon X to a course with the conditions you describe I would never carry it.
Agreed.
I will never forget the gasp of horror from the guy next to me at an ITOG class when I was rolling on my Wilson CQB in the gravel. "I can't believe you'd do that!!"
"I can't believe you wouldn't."
woodandsteel
06-11-09, 17:26
When we are scheduled for our bi-annual qualifications, plus our other training sessions, we shoot regardless how much rain is falling or how much snow is blowing. I have ran and shot my glock 22 and 23 in those conditions without a hiccup.
There have been times when our training has been interrrupted because the fiber board and cardboard backers got soaked to the point that they were falling off the target stands.
I actually enjoy shooting in the rain. Although, I hate picking up brass when the grass is all wet.
I'm not sure that there is any gun in my safe that I wouldn't take out in inclement weather. If I had to choose one that would be left behind, it would probably be my AK. As funny as it sounds, I would be afraid of getting her scratched up.
MarshallDodge
06-11-09, 20:09
I would have no issue with carrying my Les Baer Stainless Concept VIII. It already has some character marks. :cool:
The only gun I have run hard in the rain is my Springfield Stainless Loaded in 9mm and it ran just fine. When I got back that night to clean it there was an orangish rust film on the guide rod. It cleaned right off with a little rubbing and some oil. That was the only part of the gun that showed signs that it had been out in the weather.
Glock 17, 19 or a Sig 226, 228.
That is So funny, we just had this conversation today after watching certain platform's go down one right after another during a pretty demanding 5 day course and it was only day 3.
We all agreed with Glock's being the one we would all chose to carry.
I would choose my $550 G17 over any high price 1911.
Not to thread-jack, but what sort of problems did you see and what platforms were they?
they were all 1911 platforms, They were running about 400-500 a day and all of them went down.
With that said i have seen polymer frames also go through issues, i sit in a position of luxury being able to see different platforms being put pretty much through torture tests when they are used in some of our courses. with what i have seen I (noticed how i said "I") would not choose a 1911, but that is my opinion.
Northerntier1
06-12-09, 00:35
Looey have you seen any of the Military and Police Smith and Wessons run thru the courses? I am specifically interested the 45 ACP full size M&P. I have run a Glock 19 in the Michigan winters but have not had a chance to run my M&P in the middle of the winter or bad weather. Would like to know the 45 ACP versions are good for the long haul in the worst conditions.
I won't carry a handgun I won't trust in all conditions.
I carry Glocks.
RioGrandeGreen
06-12-09, 01:06
I would use my issued HK P2000 .40, Colt M-4, Scattergun 870. We train with them and abuse them and they still rock. I trust all this issued weapons to work all the time and if they go down you transition.
ROCKET20_GINSU
06-12-09, 01:48
Any of the 9mm Glocks.
+1!
For carry gear...Wilderness 5 stich belt (if you were really worried about rust, i.e. field conditions ti buckle, but unless you're working around salt water / air, I wouldn't worry about it)
Holster: something in kydex, of the holsters I own, Comp-tac belt holster, raven, or CTAC, i'd leave my milt sparks VM II at home.
Belt pouch: any kydex from comp-tac or blade tech, probably my TEK Lock ones.
In my experience straight rain for non extended periods of time really doesn't bother that much. Just clean and lube well when you get a chance. The only thing that rain bothers immediately upon contact is optics, and even then in many instances you can work around it. Bring some cloth, paper towels, whatever to wipe off your shooting glasses.
Failure2Stop
06-12-09, 02:41
What course requires you to "beat the snot out of" your sidearm?
I haven't been to that one yet.
M_P
Any course that combines rain, alternate/non-traditional positions, irregular cover, carbines, and holstered pistols will introduce a good deal of character to your side-arm. While I wouldn't put it into the "beat the snot out of", like whacking your piece with a 5lb sledge, it is much harder on the gun than some people will ever be.
GLOCK... My G19 or G23. :D
they were all 1911 platforms, They were running about 400-500 a day and all of them went down.
With that said i have seen polymer frames also go through issues, i sit in a position of luxury being able to see different platforms being put pretty much through torture tests when they are used in some of our courses. with what i have seen I (noticed how i said "I") would not choose a 1911, but that is my opinion.
Oh I understand completely.
But that's what I was wanting. Your opinion on what you've seen go down.
Thanks
Sig 226, safariland holster.
If my gear is going to get beat up I am going to take gear I know will take a beating, my Sig is an absolute tack driver and tough as nails, I have trusted my life to it in some bad situations.
Looey have you seen any of the Military and Police Smith and Wessons run thru the courses? I am specifically interested the 45 ACP full size M&P. I have run a Glock 19 in the Michigan winters but have not had a chance to run my M&P in the middle of the winter or bad weather. Would like to know the 45 ACP versions are good for the long haul in the worst conditions.
I actually had a S&W M&P45 go thru a course and it ran fine.
John_Wayne777
06-12-09, 15:25
Any course that combines rain, alternate/non-traditional positions, irregular cover, carbines, and holstered pistols will introduce a good deal of character to your side-arm. While I wouldn't put it into the "beat the snot out of", like whacking your piece with a 5lb sledge, it is much harder on the gun than some people will ever be.
Note to self:
Go to Lowe's. Buy 5 pound sledge.
Oh I understand completely.
But that's what I was wanting. Your opinion on what you've seen go down.
Thanks
Sorry for not answering your question right away, If you are asking what kind of 1911 were the ones that i have seen go down, my answer would be pretty much anyone that has made it down here.
we had Les Baers, Wilson, NightHawk, Kimber, Springfield and Colts go down for diferent issues.
I love 1911's for me they are the Smoothes shooting guns ever made, the triggers can be tuned, trigger press is straight to the rear, you can have a mag well and many other things.
With that said i would not pick them as my go to gun, they just require a lot of know how to keep them running plus they require more maintenance.
I own a Springfield Armory TRP/OPERATOR that was tuned by Quantico's WTBN Precision Weapons Shop and is by far one of the sweetest things i have ever shot but even then my carry is a G19.
once again just my humble opinion.
John_Wayne777
06-12-09, 15:36
they were all 1911 platforms, They were running about 400-500 a day and all of them went down.
I've found that a lot of people who are carrying 1911's don't understand that they have to lube them generously to have them run well for a training day with hundreds of rounds...or that they need to have good mag springs in the gun...or that they need to have a recently replaced recoil spring in the gun.....In other words, I'm curious as to your estimation of the percentage of the issues that were really 1911 issues versus the number of issues due to 1911 owners not knowing how to run them.
More than once on the benches at Moyock I was asked by classmates "You're lubing your gun again?" By the fourth day of the course I usually heard "Your 1911 runs great. I've never seen one run that well." The reason it ran well was because I lubed it, fed it ammo that I knew it liked, and maintained it religiously.
I'm too old and too poor to keep doing that.
With that said i have seen polymer frames also go through issues, i sit in a position of luxury being able to see different platforms being put pretty much through torture tests when they are used in some of our courses. with what i have seen I (noticed how i said "I") would not choose a 1911, but that is my opinion.
At this point in time, neither would I. ;)
John_Wayne777
06-12-09, 15:46
Oh I understand completely.
But that's what I was wanting. Your opinion on what you've seen go down.
Thanks
Anyone who trains enough around enough 1911's will watch them eat it hard. In the Vickers 1911 course last week we had a good sampling of all the different makers you could name. I think ALL of them had a malfunction of some sort during the weekend. (Although my Baer only malfed on the range because of a gum wrapper that somehow got into the mag)
I'm pretty sure Mr. Vickers had to do at least some gunsmithing on all of the guns to deal with various out of spec issues. My gun ran fairly well in the low round count course (and has run without a hiccup in a couple of Blackwater Handgun II courses) but it still needed to have the extractor tensioned, (10,000 + rounds on the original extractor) the ejector shortened, and the extractor hook modified.
Unfortunately there's no brand name you can go out and buy that will be a guarantee of reliable function.
Oops: moved to correct thread
PRGGodfather
06-12-09, 16:38
One of my favorite sayings:
"If it ain't raining -- it ain't TRAINING!"
Train the way you play -- all weather.
JiMfraRED1911
06-12-09, 16:46
Sorry for not answering your question right away, If you are asking what kind of 1911 were the ones that i have seen go down, my answer would be pretty much anyone that has made it down here.
we had Les Baers, Wilson, NightHawk, Kimber, Springfield and Colts go down for diferent issues.
I love 1911's for me they are the Smoothes shooting guns ever made, the triggers can be tuned, trigger press is straight to the rear, you can have a mag well and many other things.
With that said i would not pick them as my go to gun, they just require a lot of know how to keep them running plus they require more maintenance.
I own a Springfield Armory TRP/OPERATOR that was tuned by Quantico's WTBN Precision Weapons Shop and is by far one of the sweetest things i have ever shot but even then my carry is a G19.
once again just my humble opinion.
*knowing nod*
Kudos to our 2112s and 0317s.
Northerntier1
06-13-09, 00:29
Looey thank you for the feed back on the M&P 45. I was glad when the M&P 45 came out as the Glock 21 is too big for my hands. I love my 1911's but the M&P holds more ammo and I can mount a light to it.
I've seen M9s go down due to lack of lube...
But for me, I'd take my P229/.40 with Blackhawk CQC SERPA and Blade-Tec mag carrier...
Train like you fight and fight like you train, my choices would either be my GLOCK 23 or my 1911.
Rugged, proven and dependable.
A wet and muddy day on the range is better than being locked inside all day long.
Littlelebowski
06-16-09, 04:48
Agreed with Looey. My G19 is what I train with.
Also, hey Looey! It's Baxter, man. Just thought I'd say hey and let you know that the arm is way way better. I'm swimming a mile a day now. Nice to be able to PT again.
Kyle E. Coyote
06-16-09, 23:42
I would take the same one I would take if it were sunny and 70 degrees out. The one I carry. The one that I need to know inside and out.
Very true. I dunno, maybe an HK P30? HK45? FNP45? Robar Alloy Extreme?
Alaskapopo
06-17-09, 00:06
Greetings,
Situation: You paid a large no-refundable deposit to the latest/greatest training facility. It runs an outdoor range. The forecast is for miserable weather- heavy rain, etc. It's a serious course, 800+ rounds, multiple shooting positions, hundreds of presentations. you and your gear is gonna get wet and dirty, and probably get some 'character' along the way:D.
Leave the safe queens at home. Whatcha taking and why? (Handgun and carry gear).
Just a fun discussion.
BOSS
The weather gets pretty foul up here. I carry my Wilson CQB. It has never let me down.
Pat
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20auto%20pistols/IM000889.jpg
my main carry guns will go in the foul weather just as good as the nice weather I wouldnt worry about it with Glocks at all or many other guns
S and W
Ruger
Sigs
most 1911
If you give it the right care your good to go
Greetings,
Situation: You paid a large no-refundable deposit to the latest/greatest training facility. It runs an outdoor range. The forecast is for miserable weather- heavy rain, etc. It's a serious course, 800+ rounds, multiple shooting positions, hundreds of presentations. you and your gear is gonna get wet and dirty, and probably get some 'character' along the way:D.
Leave the safe queens at home. Whatcha taking and why? (Handgun and carry gear).
Just a fun discussion.
BOSS
I think it was Bill Jordon who said "I'll take a revolver, you take your chances" :D
Sorry for not answering your question right away, If you are asking what kind of 1911 were the ones that i have seen go down, my answer would be pretty much anyone that has made it down here.
we had Les Baers, Wilson, NightHawk, Kimber, Springfield and Colts go down for diferent issues.
I love 1911's for me they are the Smoothes shooting guns ever made, the triggers can be tuned, trigger press is straight to the rear, you can have a mag well and many other things.
With that said i would not pick them as my go to gun, they just require a lot of know how to keep them running plus they require more maintenance.
I own a Springfield Armory TRP/OPERATOR that was tuned by Quantico's WTBN Precision Weapons Shop and is by far one of the sweetest things i have ever shot but even then my carry is a G19.
once again just my humble opinion.
Thanks for the more detailed write up. It wasn't expecting that.
J_W777, Oh I wasn't looking for a "a'ha! All of them were cheap ass Kimbers!" type of answer by any means. I know the 1911 is still just another platform in the vast array of tools at the ready of individuals. It takes a more dedicated individual to appreciate, understand and use it to its full potential but I was more/less curious as to what went down (1911, Glock, M&P, Sig etc) as far as overall platform vs specific models. Appreciate your answer too BTW.
But even with the "problems" of the 1911, it's not enough for me to write them off . As I said, I was just curious as to what he saw go down as platform vs specifics. Mainly cuz I'm very curious on the M&P series ;)...lol
Glock 19, it is the sidearm I choose to carry.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.