View Full Version : S&W M&P 15-T... Any Comments?
FlyAndFight
01-15-07, 12:06
I checked one out at my local gunshop a couple of weeks ago and I was really impressed with the fit and finish of the rifle. After doing some checking around, my understanding is that they are made by CMT (Stag) for S&W. I've heard pretty much nothing but good stuff concerning Stag and was wondering what you fine AR connoisseurs have to say about this fairly new AR. Some points regarding the rifle:
1. Comes with Troy Industries front and rear BUIS
2. Flat top with rails
3. 6 position collapsible stock
4. Gunshop was selling for roughly $1300
5. Finish was impeccable (yeah, yeah, it's a "tool", so who is supposed to care about finish... ;) Actually, I do... :))
Is this a good rifle and is the price a good deal?
Appreciate all comments and thanks.
I've only seen 1 in person and it was at the local Sportsman Warehouse. It was definately nicer than the Bushmaster and Armalie that they had there. They were definately overcharging there for it. They wanted $1100+ tax for the non optics version. I think it would be good for a general purpose AR or for plinking. I am not an "expert" though in all matters AR.
I traded for a M&P-15, the standard model, about two months ago. I've had a 20" Colt HBar since the mid-80's (my old Highpower days) but didn't really know much about AR's until reading on this and other sites. I've certainly learned a number of things since getting my SW. Personal observations on my M&P:
Pro:
Excellent fit and finish. Everything seems to fit nice and snug.
Shot well, but haven't gotten to shoot it that much so far (200-300 rounds).
Con:
Bolt carrier not staked properly, at least from everything I have read and seen. It is definitely different than my 20+ year old Colt. I believe this is easily fixable though and am looking into it.
I wasn't really looking for an M-4 style AR at the time but it was such a darn good trade I couldn't pass it up. Now I'm glad I didn't. As an earlier post said, I'm no expert on AR stuff but hope this helps.
RAM Engineer
01-15-07, 19:05
When they come with M4 feedramps, 1/7 twist barrels and properly staked BCGs, I'll be interested.
Don't forget the 4140 bbls too, at least Bushmaster uses 4150 on their bbls.
I had a choice of Bushy or S&W and went with Bushy for my first AR and the 4150 was one of the many reasons I went Bushmaster.
Robert
My take is pretty straightforward and simple. When comparing like models (apples to apples), the Stag has an MSRP of $949 (http://www.stagarms.com/rightrifles.htm) while the identical S&W has an MSRP of $1200 (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=44930&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=33803&isFirearm=Y). Based on that alone, I think the choice would be pretty clear for me.
In the case of the flattop model with rear BUIS, the price difference goes from $925 for the Stag to $1300 for the S&W, increasing the gap by another $125. While the S&W comes with the Troy sight and the Stag comes with the ARMS, I don't see the where the additional $125 went.
Can anyone say what the extra cost of the S&W is for?
Since they are both made by Stag I would get the stag. I know I know they still lack M4 ramps, standard 1/7 barrels and 4150 steel but my two stags work very well. Since they were my only factory complete AR's I don't think I will be getting rid of them because they lack few things :D
Can anyone say what the extra cost of the S&W is for?
Brand recognition? I know it's not always the case w/ ARs by any means, but that is probably one example of paying of the extra for a S&W over the Stag. If it weren't for the internet I wouldn't know about Stag, but I know S&W. Same reason Chevy Colorados will outsell Izuzu i280s this year, even though they're the same truck.
Brand recognition? I know it's not always the case w/ ARs by any means, but that is probably one example of paying of the extra for a S&W over the Stag. If it weren't for the internet I wouldn't know about Stag, but I know S&W. Same reason Chevy Colorados will outsell Izuzu i280s this year, even though they're the same truck.
I agree with you. I actually had a discussion on another board with a guy who was bound and determined to pay $200 more for the S&W just because it was an S&W. I don't get it, but oh well.
The S&W weapon is excellent and has the best BUIS's on it available. If you have a thing for the S&W name, then go for it. If the name doesn't matter, I will tell you that you can build it for less.
If you do decide to get it, make sure to check the carrier key for staking.
C4
My take is pretty straightforward and simple. When comparing like models (apples to apples), the Stag has an MSRP of $949 (http://www.stagarms.com/rightrifles.htm) while the identical S&W has an MSRP of $1200 (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=44930&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=33803&isFirearm=Y). Based on that alone, I think the choice would be pretty clear for me.
In the case of the flattop model with rear BUIS, the price difference goes from $925 for the Stag to $1300 for the S&W, increasing the gap by another $125. While the S&W comes with the Troy sight and the Stag comes with the ARMS, I don't see the where the additional $125 went.
Can anyone say what the extra cost of the S&W is for?
It would be nice to know what the difference is in real at-the-dealer or gun show prices. The S&Ws may get discounted more (I don't know).
A friend of mine recently bought the tactical model of the S&W (with the Troy rail & sights) for, I think, $1300.
It would be nice to know what the difference is in real at-the-dealer or gun show prices. The S&Ws may get discounted more (I don't know).
A friend of mine recently bought the tactical model of the S&W (with the Troy rail & sights) for, I think, $1300.
I agree.
The problem is that most dealers are biased in some way or get better pricing on one or the other so their final retail price gets skewed. For example, if a dealer sells a boat load of S&W pistols they'll likely be a "master dealer" and in turn get better wholesale pricing on the S&W than they will on a Stag.
Makes me wish I had picked up copies of the dealer price sheets for both when I was at SHOT.
FlyAndFight
01-17-07, 16:43
Thanks for the input, guys. Truly appreciate it.
They way I compared the Stag to the S&W was that they were roughly comparable when taking into consideration that the S&W came with both front and rear Troy BUIS's and quad rail. When you add those items to the stock Stag, then the final prices end up very close.
One of these two will definitely be my next AR purchase. I'm leaning towards the S&W only because it's "complete" right out of the box. (complete as far as quad rail and BUIS's already included, which I want.)
I'll have a chance to check them both out this weekend at a local gunshow*
*Rob, if you feel brave enough to drive into Miami, it's being held at the Tamiami Fair Grounds... :p
Alpha Sierra
01-17-07, 21:21
Don't forget the 4140 bbls too, at least Bushmaster uses 4150 on their bbls.
I had a choice of Bushy or S&W and went with Bushy for my first AR and the 4150 was one of the many reasons I went Bushmaster.
Robert
Why is 4150 so important?
4150 is stronger steel for the long haul and what Colt uses too.
According to Bushmaster's Tech notes it's also per 4150 Mil-Spec 11595E CMV.
That was just one of a few factors why I picked up the Bushmaster, so far with just under 1,000 rounds and zero hiccups I'm happy with it. The key appeared solid and staked properly, sights were right on out of the box at 25 yds.
The only minor thing was at around 700 plus rounds the Stock nut started to become loose, wasn't staked, just used the stock wrench to fix and alls well. I haven't staked it yet and not sure if I will yet, might change the stock soon.
Haven't been to the range since surgery on my foot, but now my stitches are out and I can limp better, I may hit the range next week. The only real negative I can say at this point about this Bushmaster is that the trigger pull sucks.
I'm putting the "Elkmont Arms Trigger Pull Reduction Kit" in it in the next few days while I wait for my Timney trigger to arrive and see if this helps. Right now the pull is around 8 lbs and I prefer triggers around 4 or less.
Robert
*Rob, if you feel brave enough to drive into Miami, it's being held at the Tamiami Fair Grounds... :p
I was going to cruise down there on Saturday, but my car will be in the shop. Maybe I'll go Sunday and take my girlfriend. She's been to the Palm Beach "redneck" gunshow, I guess I may as well take her to a Miami cuban one.:D
4150 is stronger steel for the long haul and what Colt uses too.
According to Bushmaster's Tech notes it's also per 4150 Mil-Spec 11595E CMV.
That was just one of a few factors why I picked up the Bushmaster, so far with just under 1,000 rounds and zero hiccups I'm happy with it. The key appeared solid and staked properly, sights were right on out of the box at 25 yds.
The only minor thing was at around 700 plus rounds the Stock nut started to become loose, wasn't staked, just used the stock wrench to fix and alls well. I haven't staked it yet and not sure if I will yet, might change the stock soon.
Haven't been to the range since surgery on my foot, but now my stitches are out and I can limp better, I may hit the range next week. The only real negative I can say at this point about this Bushmaster is that the trigger pull sucks.
I'm putting the "Elkmont Arms Trigger Pull Reduction Kit" in it in the next few days while I wait for my Timney trigger to arrive and see if this helps. Right now the pull is around 8 lbs and I prefer triggers around 4 or less.
Robert
I hate to piss in anyones cheerios, but I would eat my hat if BM used MIL-B-11595E. There are two types of 4150. Companies like BM, CMMG and a couple others use the cheaper of the two barrel steels. The reason is that MIL-B-11595E is EXTREMELY hard to get and VERY expensive. BM does NOT have a track record for using the "best" of everything.
The real purpose of using MIL-B-11595E is because of its ability to handle heat. If your not shooting FA, then 4140 or 4150 (chrome lined) will work just fine for you IMHO.
C4
I have not got the chance to actually shoot one yet, but all three of the S&W AR's that I've gotten to handle seemed VERY nice. Certainly the equal to my current crop of LMT's and the Colt's I've owned in the past.
I would not hesitate to buy one.
Alpha Sierra
01-18-07, 12:23
4150 is stronger steel for the long haul
Unless you are into seroius full auto use, the higher carbon content of 4150 isn't going to make any difference in performance or durability over 4140.
I see no need for 4150 in a rifle that will be a semi auto only.
Re: 4150/4140 barrels
One thing, since I've switch to all 1/7 twist barrels I noticed that all 1/7 Cro-Moly barrels are made with Mil-Spec 11595E spec steel. Either a version of 4150 or CMV.
So if you get a cro-moly 1/7 twist barrel you will have a "4150" barrel. I don't know why this is but I have never seen a 4140, 1/7 barrel.
Another reason I prefer 4150 is because I run my carbines hard when I practice. When I do certain drills I can get the barrel so hot that I can't hold the lower receiver or even the railed handguard.
Also, the AR15 has a "safe" sustained rate of fire of 12-15 rounds a minute and there are times when I shoot a lot more than 12-15 rounds a minute and I like to know that when the heat gets up there that my barrel can take it. IMHO, you don't have to be shooting full auto to really get your barrel hot enough to damage it so I like the extra cushion that my "4150" and CMV barrels provide. While some people may think it might not be "needed" I get it because I can.;)
Lastly, I don't really see much money saved by going with a 4140 barrel and since I prefer 1/7 barrels 4140 isn't really an option anyway.
Grant,
I can't find any info on the so called two types of 4150 that you talk about, if you could provide more info on where to look, that would help.
I called Bushmaster and they said there is only 1 type 4150 ordnance steel and they use that per Gov. Mil-Spec. and they meet or exceed Gov. standards on all barrels and parts. He also said that Colt uses 4140 for civilians on most rifles as well as other things. I asked what military contract they have and he said he could not disclose that information.
He also said Bushmaster, Colt and FN have Gov. contracts and they all only batch test (MP) the bolts, Barrels etc per contract.
Take it for what it's worth.
I might be new to the AR but I wasn't born yesterday and have been around firearms most of my 48 years. From my past Aerospace Quality Assurance Inspection days I can tell if things are not right and know how to use the tools to check if necessary.
I'm more of a 30 caliber man but decided to take the plunge and try the AR before another ban came. I researched and looked at all the different companies and picked Bushmaster because of their over all quality in all the parts used including the barrel.
Since I've been on this site I have seen more Bushmaster bashing by a few and that's fine. My Bushy appears to be a good one and has functioned well with the few rounds I put down the tube so far and if I have a choice between 4140 and 4150, 4150 would always be the first choice.
Robert
Grant,
I can't find any info on the so called two types of 4150 that you talk about, if you could provide more info on where to look, that would help.
Sure can, read this: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=37
Paul does a good job in detailing everything.
I called Bushmaster and they said there is only 1 type 4150 ordnance steel and they use that per Gov. Mil-Spec. and they meet or exceed Gov. standards on all barrels and parts. He also said that Colt uses 4140 for civilians on most rifles as well as other things. I asked what military contract they have and he said he could not disclose that information.
BM also told everyone that they MP tested EVERY bolt (for years). This also turned out to be a lie. I trust next to nothing they say. Ask to see the certs for the steel to prove it. ;)
To my knowledge, BM NEVER had a .Mil contract. They have sold some M16's to the military in small batches, but no official contract was ever awarded.
If Colt uses 4140 steel in their LE weapons or Civy weapons, I am the Pope. :D
He also said Bushmaster, Colt and FN have Gov. contracts and they all only batch test (MP) the bolts, Barrels etc per contract.
Colt and FN do not have .Gov contracts, they have .Mil contracts. There is a HUGE difference. The TDP does state that you only have to batch test bolts and barrel (correct). FN and Colt both state that they HPT/MP every bolt and barrel. I cannot gurantee that Colt does do this, but an Employee within FN has confirmed for me that they do.
Take it for what it's worth.
I might be new to the AR but I wasn't born yesterday and have been around firearms most of my 48 years. From my past Aerospace Quality Assurance Inspection days I can tell if things are not right and know how to use the tools to check if necessary.
I'm more of a 30 caliber man but decided to take the plunge and try the AR before another ban came. I researched and looked at all the different companies and picked Bushmaster because of their over all quality in all the parts used including the barrel.
AR's are generally broken up into Tiers. There are 3 tiers of AR's. Companies that have a .Mil contract and have the official TDP issued to them are a Tier 1 manufacturer. There are only two companies that fall into this for sure (Colt and FN). The second tier are companies that follow the TDP, but do not have a .Mil contract. These would be LMT, CMMG, BCM and Sabre Defence. The tier three AR manufacturers are going to be companies that don't follow the TDP all that closely.
Since I've been on this site I have seen more Bushmaster bashing by a few and that's fine. My Bushy appears to be a good one and has functioned well with the few rounds I put down the tube so far and if I have a choice between 4140 and 4150, 4150 would always be the first choice.
Robert
Manufacturer bashing is frowned upon on M4C. We require people to have first hand knowledge of what they say and or second info with named sources. BM made a good weapon at one time, but I think those days are gone now.
The only real way IMHO, to find out if a weapon is realiable is to shoot about 3,000 rounds through it while attending a carbine training class. The reason is, that you will stress the weapon much harder than plinking at your local range. If you BM survives that, then I would say that you got a keeper!
C4
ar_mcadams
01-18-07, 20:22
nevermind, found answer.
I don't buy into the Tier this and that junk.
It's just one's opinion as in Cad & Lexus is Tier 1, Chevy & Dodge Tier 2 and Ford & Yugo is Tier 3 etc.....
I also don't believe everything BM or Colt says for that matter and rather have my own hands on to prove any weapons reliability. My own test is that the first 500 rounds plus is just a break in and from 1,000 to 1,500 plus should bring out any problems and at 3,000 plus if she shows normal wear and tear the weapon should be good to go for the long haul. This has worked for me for both rifles and pistols through out the years.
I also don't baby the weapons I own and run them all hard at times and use all kinds of ammo from cheap to quality ammo. A carbine class would be a fun learning experience, but for the price of one, I would rather buy another firearm or more ammo. I no longer do security work, I'm out of the service, I have no plans on heading to the sandbox in the near future and after a 2 or 5 day class of running around the arthritis in my old bones would kick up so bad it would take me a good week to recover.
I don't keep any firearm that's picky about ammo and can't be fixed to feed all types of ammo, that's why I no longer own any Glocks, for me, I have found them to be too picky about the ammo they like.
I'll keep running my Bushmaster and still prefer 4150 over 4140 if given a choice.
A few last minute thoughts, With all weapons, if you maintain them properly they normally will not let you down and carbine class data has to be weighed with a little salt not knowing the history of said weapons maintenance before malfunction.
On Gov. & Mil. contracts, going to the lowest bidder is not always the best when it comes to parts or weapon systems. Having a contract doesn't mean parts are always quality or better than what's out in the civilian market.
Bushmaster Tech note; #172 Stainless steel is better at preventing erosion than regular 4140 steel, but we use mil. spec. 4150 ordnance steel. Then, our barrels are chrome lined and a chrome lined barrel will easily out-last a stainless barrel. A very good article on barrel manufacturing can be found in the '96 Shooter's Bible (Pg. 33). A typical stainless barrel is made from 416 stainless steel and then broach rifled. This process has been around for about 100 years. Our chrome lined barrels are made from 4150 ordnance steel and then button rifled - a process that's been around for about 50 years. This same process has set virtually every record for the National Bench Rest Association (NBRA). Shilen, McMillan and Browning barrels all use the same process but not the same steel. Mil. spec. calls for 4150 steel - same as used in aircraft machinegun barrels and all military small arms barrels. It costs more but we think its well worth the price. The button rifling process work hardens the bore - making tough steel even tougher. Then, after the barrel is fully machined, it is chrome lined, making it even tougher yet - and virtually impervious to rust or erosion. This chroming process isn't like car bumper chroming. It actually welds each chromium molecule to the steel bore. This chrome lining is far more resistant to wear than a bare steel bore and it gives slightly increased velocity due to the lubricity ("slipperiness") of the chrome. And, you'll see less fouling and easier cleaning with a chrome lined barrel - all in all, a superior product.
Robert
You sound like you're getting awefully defensive when this thread isn't even about Bushmasters. There are quite a few threads that are, however, if you're upset that people are "bashing" your choice, and quite a few threads where people, myself included, outline exactly what is missing from a Bushmaster.
This statement
A carbine class would be a fun learning experience, but for the price of one, I would rather buy another firearm or more ammo.
Most certainly puts you in the minority on this site (although it makes you a god on TOS), but I'm glad you posted it because you just made my entire argument on the "internet gun forums" thread.
You reading this Grant?:D
I don't buy into the Tier this and that junk.
It's just one's opinion as in Cad & Lexus is Tier 1, Chevy & Dodge Tier 2 and Ford & Yugo is Tier 3 etc.....
I also don't believe everything BM or Colt says for that matter and rather have my own hands on to prove any weapons reliability. My own test is that the first 500 rounds plus is just a break in and from 1,000 to 1,500 plus should bring out any problems and at 3,000 plus if she shows normal wear and tear the weapon should be good to go for the long haul. This has worked for me for both rifles and pistols through out the years.
I also don't baby the weapons I own and run them all hard at times and use all kinds of ammo from cheap to quality ammo. A carbine class would be a fun learning experience, but for the price of one, I would rather buy another firearm or more ammo. I no longer do security work, I'm out of the service, I have no plans on heading to the sandbox in the near future and after a 2 or 5 day class of running around the arthritis in my old bones would kick up so bad it would take me a good week to recover.
I don't keep any firearm that's picky about ammo and can't be fixed to feed all types of ammo, that's why I no longer own any Glocks, for me, I have found them to be too picky about the ammo they like.
I'll keep running my Bushmaster and still prefer 4150 over 4140 if given a choice.
A few last minute thoughts, With all weapons, if you maintain them properly they normally will not let you down and carbine class data has to be weighed with a little salt not knowing the history of said weapons maintenance before malfunction.
On Gov. & Mil. contracts, going to the lowest bidder is not always the best when it comes to parts or weapon systems. Having a contract doesn't mean parts are always quality or better than what's out in the civilian market.
Bushmaster Tech note; #172 Stainless steel is better at preventing erosion than regular 4140 steel, but we use mil. spec. 4150 ordnance steel. Then, our barrels are chrome lined and a chrome lined barrel will easily out-last a stainless barrel. A very good article on barrel manufacturing can be found in the '96 Shooter's Bible (Pg. 33). A typical stainless barrel is made from 416 stainless steel and then broach rifled. This process has been around for about 100 years. Our chrome lined barrels are made from 4150 ordnance steel and then button rifled - a process that's been around for about 50 years. This same process has set virtually every record for the National Bench Rest Association (NBRA). Shilen, McMillan and Browning barrels all use the same process but not the same steel. Mil. spec. calls for 4150 steel - same as used in aircraft machinegun barrels and all military small arms barrels. It costs more but we think its well worth the price. The button rifling process work hardens the bore - making tough steel even tougher. Then, after the barrel is fully machined, it is chrome lined, making it even tougher yet - and virtually impervious to rust or erosion. This chroming process isn't like car bumper chroming. It actually welds each chromium molecule to the steel bore. This chrome lining is far more resistant to wear than a bare steel bore and it gives slightly increased velocity due to the lubricity ("slipperiness") of the chrome. And, you'll see less fouling and easier cleaning with a chrome lined barrel - all in all, a superior product.
Robert
The Tier thing is not written in stone, but most of the proffessional shooters in the AR industry use the term and if you read mags like SWAT, you will see it there as well. You can try to argue that Colt and FN aren't tier 1, but it just isn't going to hold water. I can go point by point and explain why BM doesn't fall into this catagory.
3,000 (or there abouts) is a good indicator, but not if your doing it via 100rds a month slow fire off a bench. That is why I stated, that you needed to run the weapons hard (like you would in a training class).
No one is arguing that 4150 steel is better than 4140 (or they shouldn't be). My point is that until you see the cert that BM uses 4150 Vanadium, then I wouldn't believe them.
No doubt that SS has a much shorter life than a CL barrel, but the trade off is less accuracy. Just kind of depends what you want to do and there is no right or wrong answer.
I fully understand that you are happy with your BM. There many others though that have not had your same experience.
C4
FlyAndFight
01-19-07, 11:40
I was going to cruise down there on Saturday, but my car will be in the shop. Maybe I'll go Sunday and take my girlfriend. She's been to the Palm Beach "redneck" gunshow, I guess I may as well take her to a Miami cuban one.:D
LOL! I'll be there on Sunday as well, Rob. I'll keep an eye out for the "yellow visor"! :D
Rob,
Ain't defensive about my choice in Bushmaster at all, just trying to explain why I picked Bushmaster instead of the S&W. when I had a choice.
On the Carbine classes, if you are heading into harms way and you need the training great, or if you wanna play mall ninja merc so be it. For me it would be a waste of money when I can head down to my range and get all the practice I need for what I do. If that upsets you, it ain't my problem and I wasn't trying to start a problem.
Grant,
I understand where you are coming from and yes, the more rounds per session tells a lot about any weapon. At the range I usually shoot around 300 to 500 rounds in the AR and then switch to the pistols for a while. I also wasn't trying to start a problem with you or anyone else and just trying to show that according to all the info I could find that yes, Bushmaster uses Mil. Spec 4150 for barrels.
Robert
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