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Tomac
06-13-09, 14:31
Here's a cut-n-paste from my post at TOS:

My best friend is visiting for a week so I treated us both to a local 2-day carbine course using my STG's & crappy Brown Bear 55gr. Both rifles were slightly dirty from sighting in their Eotechs the previous week and I deliberately decided to run them through the course dirty & w/o any cleaning or additional lube as a reliability test. Gas systems were set to "heavy" as per Dave's advice due to the Brown Bear being so underpowered.
First day was a little classroom work to cover the fundamentals along w/some highly educational in-house exercises on proper pie-ing (?) techniques. The afternoon was spent at the range confirming zero, proper sight picture, trigger technique, footwork, posture, etc. Altogether appx 400rds were fired per rifle that day w/the only problem being a single double-feed in the STG I was using.
Second day was the fun stuff! Moving targets, shoot/no-shoot drills, stop drills, shooting on the move, transitions, single hand manipulations (man, was *that* interesting w/the STG!), team drills, hostage exercises, lateral-move shots, low-crawl to shooting position, multiple-height barricade shots (my friend took a couple of empties to the teeth when firing from the roll-over support side prone position, all I got was a hot casing to the back of the neck...), room clearing and other very practical and realistic exercises.
Their range wasn't complete but what they managed to accomplish w/improvisation was simply amazing. My favorite was a carboard box wearing a tee-shirt and suspended on a coat hanger by an inflated balloon (representing the heart COM) inside the box. While this target was moving you had to hit the small & unseen balloon inside the target to get it to "drop". Lots of fun!
Anywho, my friend's STG completed the course w/100% reliability (which pleasantly surprised me a little since he was using my "problem child" STG that had initial FTE's right out of the box, I guess Dave done fixed it right!)
However, almost at the very end of the 2nd day I started having stuck casings w/resultant FTE's (not surprising w/steel-cased ammo, especially the cheap Brown Bear I was using) w/one so severe it locked up the bolt and took a major effort to free. Rather than mess with it I just dropped in a spare bolt and finished the course w/o further difficulty.
I detail-stripped the bolt and discovered that the extractor claw was chewed up rather badly (but not broken), I believe this to be from trying to forcefully trying to extract that one badly-stuck casing. It only took a couple of minutes to drop in a new extractor and it's good to go again.
The environment was very unfriendly to mechanisms; a very fine dirt (evident in the pics) that coated and got into *everything* (even the toilet paper in the outhouse, that's one memory I'm going to try very hard to forget...). Even though I had to drop our chest rigs into the washing machine to get them clean, the STG's cleaned up very quickly and easily w/only the gas pistons requiring any real cleaning effort even after nearly 1,000rds each of the crappy Brown Bear.
Btw, the Eotech 512's we used were absolutely great for this kind of shooting. From unconventional positions I found the big circle much quicker/easier to acquire than a small single dot and at close ranges the bottom of the circle made a perfect aiming point. From point-blank out to 50yd hostage rescue shots I never missed w/the Eotech.
Tomac
Shooting while moving back:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09008.jpg
Lateral shots w/the "clearing room" in the background:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09015.jpg
Rotating the STG to increase the angle of engagement:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09016.jpg
Moving target w/no-shoots:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09023.jpg
Barricade shots:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09025.jpg
Single hand manipulations:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09029.jpg
Team drill:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09030.jpg
Low crawls:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09033.jpg
I'm the good looking one on the left!:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofJohnCarbineClass5-25-09011.jpg
STG's after two days of abuse:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofRotationofJohnCarbineClass5.jpg

No Bananas
06-13-09, 22:44
I gotta ask. How does that compare to a good AR? Same probs?

Tomac
06-13-09, 22:55
I gotta ask. How does that compare to a good AR? Same probs?

Let's see.... STG has an adjustable gas system which runs cleaner & made the underpowered Brown Bear ammo function reliably, needs to run wet for best reliability (like an AR), I think it handles better/faster due to the shorter OAL (YMMV) but it has a fixed LOP, trigger is typical bullpup which is acceptable for tactical apps but will never equal a good AR trigger (especially for precision shots), optics rail not long enough for a decent BUIS setup, bullpup ejection can make for interesting (read "painful") rollover support-side prone shooting, 42rd mag made for fewer reloads & didn't interfere w/shooting from any position.
Like any weapons platform, it has its strengths & weaknesses, I found the strengths to outweigh the weaknesses for my needs.
Tomac

No Bananas
06-14-09, 01:47
Thanks for the post and answer. Very complete!

Tomac
06-14-09, 06:04
Thanks for the post and answer. Very complete!

You're welcome!
Tomac

Ed L.
06-14-09, 15:42
Nice review.

Who was the training class with?

Tomac
06-14-09, 17:37
Nice review.
Who was the training class with?

Thx! The training was w/DefTac, they're local & I just heard about recently. We were the very first to use their new (and unfinished) range, hence the crude setup. I'm looking forward to taking the intermediate class again once they've completed the range.
Tomac