Don’t shoot the photographer [Archive]

ToddG

06-15-09, 08:39

After about 10 seconds I was kinda hoping that he'd get shot, now some of those idiots might think that's a good idea and go try it at home.

Wisdom there. ^^^^^^

I've taken plenty of photos from downrange, but only when dealing with folks who:
I've trained with extensively, and
I know have experience operating in a 360-degree environment, and
who I trust enough to enter a building with if circumstances became so dire that it was necessary.

Even under those circumstances, I stay off the line of fire. This is especially true if I'm behind the camera, because it creates total tunnel vision and slows down the ability to react & move if something goes wrong.

Plus I'd kill someone if he shot my camera.

Being slightly downrange can give you some outstanding shots, but again there's a huge difference between doing this with someone who's extensively trained to deal with people forward of the muzzle and who has demonstrated first hand that his training "clicked."

http://greent.com/photos/forumshoot/images/fireball2.jpg

http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/aiwb-snag.jpg

http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/TLG_4239.jpg

http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/TLG_4292.jpg

http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/normal_TLG_4402.jpg

http://greent.com/webimg/match/nats2003/2003-reload.jpg

http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/normal_todd_flame_gamma.jpg

http://greent.com/webimg/match/nc2003/sdh-1-small.jpg

http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/candid.png
no, it's not loaded :cool:

CryingWolf

06-15-09, 09:33

Wisdom there. ^^^^^^

I've taken plenty of photos from downrange, but only when dealing with folks who:
I've trained with extensively, and
I know have experience operating in a 360-degree environment, and
who I trust enough to enter a building with if circumstances became so dire that it was necessary.

Even under those circumstances, I stay off the line of fire. This is especially true if I'm behind the camera, because it creates total tunnel vision and slows down the ability to react & move if something goes wrong.

Plus I'd kill someone if he shot my camera.

Being slightly downrange can give you some outstanding shots, but again there's a huge difference between doing this with someone who's extensively trained to deal with people forward of the muzzle and who has demonstrated first hand that his training "clicked."

No offense as I think your shots are good but none of your shots are Pulitzer prize winning shots; sorry, but none of your shots are worth risk to anyone. Setting up a remote system would be easy and give you a lot more options without risk of injury or death.

Plus I'd kill someone if he shot my camera.

As long as your head was not behind it! :rolleyes:

P.S. I did note that you don't seem to be in the same position as the photographer in the video. Your shots seem to be taken from a safer angle.

larry0071

06-15-09, 10:00

Smuckatelli

06-15-09, 10:07

Really, a staged AR that both have cleared to be empty could be as safe as any other magazine/movie shoot... so that one does not even count.

I dunno Larry, that picture gives me the hebee jebees. If you don't intend on shooting something, you shouldn't be pointing the weapon at that something........

CarlosDJackal

06-15-09, 10:13

I can't get over just how asinine this video is. :eek:

If this is TR, I'm very disappointed that they would allow something like this AND post it on the Internet for all to see!! WTF ere they thinking? :rolleyes:

CarlosDJackal

06-15-09, 10:14

I dunno Larry, that picture gives me the hebee jebees. If you don't intend on shooting something, you shouldn't be pointing the weapon at that something........

Agreed!! Most cameras have this newfangled thing called a timer that can produce the same results. :rolleyes:

Paladin4415

06-15-09, 10:22

Just when you think you've seen the dumbest thing in the world, something like this shows up to prove you wrong. I can't wait to see what tops this one. :rolleyes:

Sam

06-15-09, 10:32

http://greent.com/webimg/match/nc2003/sdh-1-small.jpg

http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/candid.png
no, it's not loaded :cool:

My favorite pictures. :)

I was not there in that class by I recognize that range where the video was taken. The photographer appeared to be part of the TR staff.

Without knowing the whole story behind the video, I will not condemn it or the participants.

CryingWolf

06-15-09, 10:46

Most of Todd's photos could be done many yards off to the side and use a telephoto lense to make it appear that he is setting 1-2 foot to the side and a few feet in front. I'm not sure if that was natural or tele, but I would bet he moved out and down and used a lense to suck the subject back up close.

2 were at close proximity and one of those 2 was directly in the LOF. He knelt directly under his pal for the one shot, and he had his other buddy point the AR at the camera.

Really, a staged AR that both have cleared to be empty could be as safe as any other magazine/movie shoot... so that one does not even count.

The camera man setting between the targets that are nearly touching his shoulders while pure chaos erupts around him.... insanity. No comparison at all to Todd's pics.

I agree as you can see the foreshortening affect in a couple of his photos (background seems really close to the subject). You see that in Hollywood when say a big truck / bus is chasing our hero and it looks like it is on top of him but in reality it could be a block away from him.

As for the guy in the video;

Tripod = $50
Wireless camera remote = $45
Making sure you are out of harms way and don't get shot = priceless

John_Wayne777

06-15-09, 11:03

No offense as I think your shots are good but none of your shots are Pulitzer prize winning shots; sorry, but none of your shots are worth risk to anyone.

Todd's never going to place himself at unnecessary risk. ;)

P.S. I did note that you don't seem to be in the same position as the photographer in the video. Your shots seem to be taken from a safer angle.

Precisely. You can get some really good shots from a completely safe angle.

The video shows, however, that the guy was literally right next to the targets with a group of shooters using live fire right by his anatomy.

EDIT:

http://greent.com/webimg/match/nc2003/sdh-1-small.jpg

What does that tattoo say?

Irish

06-15-09, 11:16

Damn he's dumb.

Jay Cunningham

06-15-09, 11:28

What does that tattoo say?

I heard that Dave will be *more than happy* to tell you what it says.

:p

Nathan_Bell

06-15-09, 11:38

I heard that Dave will be *more than happy* to tell you what it says.

:p

I believe it says something about minding one's business :D

Sam

06-15-09, 12:29

What does that tattoo say?

I know what it says but I can't tell you. :D

Face_N_The_Crowd

06-15-09, 13:48

Tactical Response - google the owner "James Yeager + Edinbourough Risk"

Some things will come into focus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8alt5C-yc4

He is the driver of the lead car.......

John_Wayne777

06-15-09, 14:03

In all seriousness, I'm sure this is going to turn into a big brouhaha in some places as people try to turn it into a debate about the 180 degree range rules.

I don't see this as a 180 degree range mindset issue. There is such a thing as training with people "downrange" and it's done in very specific contexts for very specific reasons. Getting pictures is not one of them. Thus the 180 degree defense isn't really valid. We're still presented with a situation in which somebody is right beside the friggin' targets while live fire is going on just so he can get some pictures. The risk/reward calculation that is often discussed in 180 degree rule debate threads doesn't apply.

Iraqgunz

06-15-09, 14:07

Knowing that this came from "Tactical Response" and the players involved there I am not shocked at all.

Safetyhit

06-15-09, 14:24

To think that man has been able to even lead a semi-productive life being that stupid is just amazing.

And the idiotic look of empowerment on the one goofball shooter's face when he turns around...:rolleyes:

ToddG

06-15-09, 15:12

No offense as I think your shots are good but none of your shots are Pulitzer prize winning shots

Ya think? :cool:

sorry, but none of your shots are worth risk to anyone. Setting up a remote system would be easy and give you a lot more options without risk of injury or death.

(1) Setting up a remote system doesn't let me see what the camera is looking at or controlling things like zoom, DOF, etc.

(2) With the people pictured and my actual position, I was less at risk taking those photos than I was while shooting at the local indoor range today.

P.S. I did note that you don't seem to be in the same position as the photographer in the video. Your shots seem to be taken from a safer angle.

As I said in my first post, there's a huge difference between simply being "downrange" and literally sitting between two targets that students are blasting on at nearly point blank range.

Most of Todd's photos could be done many yards off to the side and use a telephoto lense to make it appear that he is setting 1-2 foot to the side and a few feet in front.

Right. Again, some people believe that everything on one half of the planet is "downrange" and therefore a sacrosanct area which no living being should occupy. I don't fall into that category.

(yeah, I know I just set myself up)

2 were at close proximity and one of those 2 was directly in the LOF. He knelt directly under his pal for the one shot, and he had his other buddy point the AR at the camera.

Same guy, different day.

What does that tattoo say?

While I am not going to get into what it actually says, there are two answers you'll get from Super Dave depending on who you are when you ask.

If you are a really hot chick who does not appear to be immediately attached to a guy for the evening, the answer you will get is, "That's my sister's name. I had it tattoo'd to my arm after she died of breast cancer a few years back so I will never go a day without thinking of her." (Dave does not have a sister)

If you are just about anyone else, Dave will look at the tattoo and pretending to read it will tell you, "It says ... none of your ****ing business." (which is also not the case)

I got to see both in one night, it was pretty funny.

ljlinson1206

06-15-09, 16:08

This guy either has balls the size of cantelopes or major issues at home!!!!!!

KellyTTE

06-15-09, 19:41

John_Wayne777

06-15-09, 20:04

Smuckatelli

06-15-09, 20:53

(1) Setting up a remote system doesn't let me see what the camera is looking at or controlling things like zoom, DOF, etc.

We had Sarnof make what became known as the "videoflashlight" and install it at the shoothouse in NW Chesapeake a few years ago. We transitioned it over to a program of record since than it it is being installed at ranges throughout the Marine Corps. The critical part initially was getting a good lidar done to accurately model the range facility.

Since that time, it has become mobile, you might want to take a look at this system. The camera tracks whatever you designate it to and you can remotely control the camera reatures without touching the camera. You could easy have cameras tracking all of your shooters and conduct a very good AAR when the shooting is completed. We do this with our CQB bubbas....you might want to look into this.

rob_s

06-15-09, 21:15

Saw some names defending that nonsense that I recognized from elsewhere as belonging to people I thought knew better.

mmx1

06-15-09, 21:32

I'm glad they think they're so better than the rest of us who don't take such risks. I'm definitely glad I was warned off them.

13F3OL7

06-15-09, 21:36

I wonder what people on the firing line were thinking. Obviously not a whole lot since you should never point your weaon downrange when there is something you're not willing to destroy.

kal

06-15-09, 21:43

What a bunch of ****ing idiots. Case Closed.

Heavy Metal

06-15-09, 22:43

Ya think? :cool:

(1) Setting up a remote system doesn't let me see what the camera is looking at or controlling things like zoom, DOF, etc.

(2) With the people pictured and my actual position, I was less at risk taking those photos than I was while shooting at the local indoor range today.

As I said in my first post, there's a huge difference between simply being "downrange" and literally sitting between two targets that students are blasting on at nearly point blank range.

Right. Again, some people believe that everything on one half of the planet is "downrange" and therefore a sacrosanct area which no living being should occupy. I don't fall into that category.

(yeah, I know I just set myself up)

Same guy, different day.

While I am not going to get into what it actually says, there are two answers you'll get from Super Dave depending on who you are when you ask.

If you are a really hot chick who does not appear to be immediately attached to a guy for the evening, the answer you will get is, "That's my sister's name. I had it tattoo'd to my arm after she died of breast cancer a few years back so I will never go a day without thinking of her." (Dave does not have a sister)

If you are just about anyone else, Dave will look at the tattoo and pretending to read it will tell you, "It says ... none of your ****ing business." (which is also not the case)

I got to see both in one night, it was pretty funny.

I thought it said: "Uhhh, Ken....I think I am in trouble......"

Heavy Metal

06-15-09, 22:45

The thread on GOTX is ****ing unbelievable.

"Stay the **** out of our world!!"

Jesus.

Somebody please tell me when the **** TR took out the patent on gunfighting and the "warrior" way. I must have missed it.

Fratracide != Warrior

Some sheepdogs have rabies.

I think the cameraman was gunning for the 'Old Yeller' rabies treatment.

graffex

06-16-09, 00:52

So the consensus is that james yeager and his group are goofs? I was told by some people that he had some good instructional dvd's on training. I think I'll pass after seeing that kind of stupidity.

M4Fundi

06-16-09, 01:40

Just curious was the photog a photojournalist or photographer working for the trainers?

KellyTTE

06-16-09, 01:55

Just curious was the photog a photojournalist or photographer working for the trainers?

The photog in question is one of their lead instructors.

riddlin

06-16-09, 02:46

I am at a loss for words. :eek:

I used to be a member at the "X" but was banned for not towing the party line and bowing down to fake SEAL Ben Thomas.
What I find amusing is Gabe is on the topic bashing SWAT mag. I thought Yeager wrote for SWAT?

rob_s

06-16-09, 05:40

I thought Yeager wrote for SWAT?
He was in it as recently as January 2009. I know this because it's the same issue as my SR-15E3 article. Pincus was in that issue too.

NCPatrolAR

06-16-09, 06:17

Yeager, and Yeager-influnced people, have articles in SWAT fairly regularly.

Iraqgunz

06-16-09, 06:32

Yes, they do. It is also part of the reason that I stay away from it more and more. Unless I want to read an article by Rob S. or Ned C.

Yeager, and Yeager-influnced people, have articles in SWAT fairly regularly.

crossgun

06-16-09, 06:44

rob_s

06-16-09, 07:04

Cross, while there may be a time and a place for a training exercise that involves being forward of the shooter's position, those times and places are controlled and have a purpose. That purpose is (typically) for something better than simply allowing an "instructor" to go down range and squat next to a target to take pictures. Cost:benefits analysis = fail in this case.

The other issue I have, not to sound too snobby about it, is that the abilities of the shooters involved seems to me to be horrendous. On another forum one of the guys, the one with the malfunction that doesn't know what to do about it, appears to have taken multiple classes with these guys yet still has the gunhandling skills of a novice. Mr. 180 in the video looks about as comfortable with a gun in his hand and moving around with it as a 14 year old looks smoking a cigarette and trying too hard. Now maybe that has to do with the fact that there's another idiot downrange taking a dump, and pictures, next to his target, but I doubt it.

Finally, there's the techniques evidently being taught that IMHO don't mate well with sending someone down range like that. The "full Sabrina" almost requires that you cover the guy down range with your muzzle, and performing malfunction clearances and tac-loads at this position cinch the deal.

So for me, the issue is that going down range to take pictures is a horrible reason to put yourself in the line of fire and is disrespectful as hell of the students, and the level of ability that I see in the video does not lend itself to the notion that we're dealing with students who are up to the challenge.

Elsewhere the four rules are beginning to be denigrated as people try to defend this video. The depths to which some will go to try to defend bad judgment, bad actions, and bad instruction is unbelievable.

For me, this video is turning into a litmus test, and those that defend or even apologize for it are falling into the list of people I would prefer never to train under or next to. They have a right to run down range and stand in front of shooters, and I have a right to think they are stupid for doing so and avoid them like the plague. Pat Rogers is known to say "some people shouldn't be allowed to have guns. or kids. or air". Seems applicable here.

rob_s

06-16-09, 07:05

Yes, they do. It is also part of the reason that I stay away from it more and more. Unless I want to read an article by Rob S. or Ned C.

Hey thanks! :D

FWIW, I think it's good that they allow all points of view in SWAT. Yeager, Pincus, etc. are all polarizing and their articles tend to induce internet drama which turns into sales for SWAT and (hopefully) at least a little bit of good discussion on better sites like M4C. They will be publishing an article by me about my experience in Randy Cain's TH101 class last month and Randy couldn't be more on the other side of the spectrum than those guys.

Car and Driver and Road and Track both have biases that I'm not too fond of and articles I tend not to like sometimes (the Mustang beat the GTO? due to "gotta have it"? Come on!) but I still buy and read the magazines because I like to have my biases tested. Same thing for SWAT. If I read something in it that doesn't pass my sniff test it serves as a catalyst for discussion with likeminded friends or even a chance to do something different to test the theories at our drills nights (where I have 20+/- lab rats :D). For every article by guys I don't agree with, there are articles by, or about, guys that I do and in some cases (like a recent article about Tigerswan) an article about a guy I didn't know anything about but can find pearls of wisdom from.

OldNavyGuy

06-16-09, 07:45

rob_s

06-16-09, 07:48

Dude, short-pants rock! All the cool kids are going to short-pants!

One of these things is not like the others....

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/0805%20YFA/IMG_2682Medium.jpg

Robb Jensen

06-16-09, 07:49

here is one of the more idiotically stupid things i have seen along with the fool between the targets

http://greent.com/webimg/match/nats2003/2003-reload.jpg

who the hell goes on a training session wearing shorts ??

dumb.., dumb and dumber it gets :eek:

FYI That's an IDPA match probably in the summer time and that's IDPA Master class shooter Ernest Langdon.

I'm sure he'll take your tactical advice. :rolleyes:

Iraqgunz

06-16-09, 08:02

I don't see an issue with shorts. Big boy rules so if you want to skin up your knees or whatever have at it. On the other hand I wear shorts 75% of the time and would probably being wearing them if the SHTF.

here is one of the more idiotically stupid things i have seen along with the fool between the targets

http://greent.com/webimg/match/nats2003/2003-reload.jpg

who the hell goes on a training session wearing shorts ??

dumb.., dumb and dumber it gets :eek:

John_Wayne777

06-16-09, 08:19

Hoping not to get my balls busted here to bad but its probably going to hurt some.

Haven’t a lot of us been down range and in front of the muzzle at some schools? I know I have and I would have no issue with standing down range with many of you and probably have before.

Is this not an example of being able to function in the "real world"?

Only problem I had was the wheeling of pistols to the port arms position to turn and look.

Be kind and educate

No ball busting required. It's a good question.

Yes, many of us have been through training that would qualify as "downrange"...but it was that: Training.

Here we are not presented with training. We are presented with a guy who went by the targets to get some pictures. I'm presuming from the video that he didn't stand by everybody's target during the course. Thus the whole notion of promoting the training benefit of standing by the target is dead from the get-go. If he didn't do this by everybody's target, then it really wasn't training, was it? Then the argument would have to be that because some people do downrange training that being downrange is no big deal so you can just saunter down there and take some pictures, because really it's no big deal...and that argument is obviously a non-starter.

On TR's echo chamber I see that some are mentioning Ken Hackathorn's name, which is ****ing bogus.

I've been through Ken's drills as have a few others in this thread. Comparing one of his signature "downrange" drills to TR's photography stunt is comparing apples to zebras. During the drill many are referencing in regards to Ken there is ONE shooter, and that shooter is being watched like a ****ing hawk by Ken, by the AIs, and by all the other participants in the drill. The student generally has to run it dry or with a blue gun first to work out the technique and to make sure they understand all the concepts.

In other words, it is a universe away from what you see in the video in question.

The problem evident in the video is the problem that plagues the training industry in general, namely monkey-see, monkey-do. Somebody sees that respected instructor X or high speed unit Y has someone "downrange" for a specific training benefit, think that it's a splendid idea, and then proceed to imitate without FIRST having a firm grasp on WHY it is being done, HOW it is being done, and what sort of preparation precedes the moment where it is done.

Delta is rumored to use real live people downrange in certain training scenarios. Delta is a bunch of hardcore warriors. We all wanna be warriors, right? So we need to have people downrange too! Bob, go stand by that target while I shoot at it! Hey, I didn't kill Bob! Alright! I'm a ****ing warrior!

It's bass-****ing-ackwards.

The scenarios and training procedures used by elite units or that have been developed by exceptionally experienced instructors over DECADES of experience training elite warriors have been developed around specific goals and are designed to meet those goals while minimizing risk and maximizing the very real training benefit that they offer. Trying to replicate them without the complex understanding that went into developing them and what exactly makes them beneficial leads to goofy and dangerous shit.

Delta and Devgru and all those other high-speed guys do a LOT of things because of the nature of their job that is ****ing dangerous, and people get killed just TRAINING to do the missions they undertake. Yet if I was to offer a sweet super-high speed Delta inspired jump course where we put you through 6 hours of training and then shove you out the back of a C130, there wouldn't be many takers. Why? Because if you screw up you will ****ing D-I-E. There is a hell of a lot more preparation involved in getting someone qualified to do something as outrageously stupid as jumping out of the back of a perfectly good airplane than what I could cover in such a short time. Everybody with more than 2 brain cells firing can see that from a mile away.

...yet if I change it from a jump school to a shooting school suddenly I've got all sorts of takers. When guns are involved critical thinking skills seem to go right out the window.

I don't know exactly why this is. I have some pet theories that I'd wager aren't too far off, but that's another thread.

Good question, and hopefully I've given a rough outline of the answer, and your testicles are unmolested. :D

Hopefully more of our SMEs and IPs here will chime in with a more thorough explanation than I can give you.

ToddG

06-16-09, 08:20

Haven’t a lot of us been down range and in front of the muzzle at some schools?

Sure. The difference is that (a) you only do it with vetted students, if you're smart, at least, and (b) there is a training purpose to it. The video, taken at face value, suggests that neither of those two criteria are being met here.

Is this not an example of being able to function in the "real world"?

Yes. And if the student isn't ready for that, or if the student makes a mistake, it becomes very real world very fast.

here is one of the more idiotically stupid things i have seen along with the fool between the targets

You haven't seen a lot of stupid things, then, if "wearing shorts" and "standing between two targets while students blast away at point blank range" are equal in your mind.

As gotM4 pointed out, that's Ernest Langdon winning the 2003 IDPA Nationals, the first time a non-1911 won in the Custom Defensive Pistol division. Given that it's Ernest Langdon and given that he won, it might be worth considering that he knew what he was doing when he chose his wardrobe.

Iraqgunz

06-16-09, 08:24

JW,

Spotmother****inon!

No ball busting required. It's a good question.

Yes, many of us have been through training that would qualify as "downrange"...but it was that: Training.

Here we are not presented with training. We are presented with a guy who went by the targets to get some pictures. I'm presuming from the video that he didn't stand by everybody's target during the course. Thus the whole notion of promoting the training benefit of standing by the target is dead from the get-go. If he didn't do this by everybody's target, then it really wasn't training, was it? Then the argument would have to be that because some people do downrange training that being downrange is no big deal so you can just saunter down there and take some pictures, because really it's no big deal...and that argument is obviously a non-starter.

On TR's echo chamber I see that some are mentioning Ken Hackathorn's name, which is ****ing bogus.

I've been through Ken's drills as have a few others in this thread. Comparing one of his signature "downrange" drills to TR's photography stunt is comparing apples to zebras. During the drill many are referencing in regards to Ken there is ONE shooter, and that shooter is being watched like a ****ing hawk by Ken, by the AIs, and by all the other participants in the drill. The student generally has to run it dry or with a blue gun first to work out the technique and to make sure they understand all the concepts.

In other words, it is a universe away from what you see in the video in question.

The problem evident in the video is the problem that plagues the training industry in general, namely monkey-see, monkey-do. Somebody sees that respected instructor X or high speed unit Y has someone "downrange" for a specific training benefit, think that it's a splendid idea, and then proceed to imitate without FIRST having a firm grasp on WHY it is being done, HOW it is being done, and what sort of preparation precedes the moment where it is done.

Delta is rumored to use real live people downrange in certain training scenarios. Delta is a bunch of hardcore warriors. We all wanna be warriors, right? So we need to have people downrange too! Bob, go stand by that target while I shoot at it! Hey, I didn't kill Bob! Alright! I'm a ****ing warrior!

It's bass-****ing-ackwards.

The scenarios and training procedures used by elite units or that have been developed by exceptionally experienced instructors over DECADES of experience training elite warriors have been developed around specific goals and are designed to meet those goals while minimizing risk and maximizing the very real training benefit that they offer. Trying to replicate them without the complex understanding that went into developing them and what exactly makes them beneficial leads to goofy and dangerous shit.

Delta and Devgru and all those other high-speed guys do a LOT of things because of the nature of their job that is ****ing dangerous, and people get killed just TRAINING to do the missions they undertake. Yet if I was to offer a sweet super-high speed Delta inspired jump course where we put you through 6 hours of training and then shove you out the back of a C130, there wouldn't be many takers. Why? Because if you screw up you will ****ing D-I-E. There is a hell of a lot more preparation involved in getting someone qualified to do something as outrageously stupid as jumping out of the back of a perfectly good airplane than what I could cover in such a short time. Everybody with more than 2 brain cells firing can see that from a mile away.

...yet if I change it from a jump school to a shooting school suddenly I've got all sorts of takers. When guns are involved critical thinking skills seem to go right out the window.

I don't know exactly why this is. I have some pet theories that I'd wager aren't too far off, but that's another thread. :D

ToddG

06-16-09, 08:26

Delta is rumored to use real live people downrange in certain training scenarios. Delta is a bunch of hardcore warriors. We all wanna be warriors, right? So we need to have people downrange too! Bob, go stand by that target while I shoot at it! Hey, I didn't kill Bob! Alright! I'm a ****ing warrior!

Dude. Brilliant post.

Yet if I was to offer a sweet super-high speed Delta inspired jump course where we put you through 6 hours of training and then shove you out the back of a C130, there wouldn't be many takers.

DUDE, when & where? I'm in. :cool:
(not busting your balls, but the first jump in AFF is after 6-8 hours of ground schooling; of course, you jump with two experienced people holding on to you until they know you've pulled)

glockem

06-16-09, 08:38

John_Wayne777

06-16-09, 08:46

DUDE, when & where? I'm in. :cool:
(not busting your balls, but the first jump in AFF is after 6-8 hours of ground schooling; of course, you jump with two experienced people holding on to you until they know you've pulled)

You're in? That's awesome. I mean, I have no ****ing idea how you jump out of a plane and not end up going splat, but hey...why should that stop me from offering a course on it?

John_Wayne777

06-16-09, 08:48

JW, I'll take that airborne course, but then it wouldn't be the first for me> :p

Why's everyone hating on shorts? I can't show off my sexy legs in pants. I consider shorts a combat multiplier because the BG is distracted laughing as why some dumbass wore shorts to a gun fight. :)

Bad guy: Gimme yo...dayum! He's got them little chicken leg...

Good guy: ***BANG BANG BANG BANG***

Bad guy: **THUD....gurgle**

rubberneck

06-16-09, 08:52

Delta is rumored to use real live people downrange in certain training scenarios. Delta is a bunch of hardcore warriors. We all wanna be warriors, right? So we need to have people downrange too! Bob, go stand by that target while I shoot at it! Hey, I didn't kill Bob! Alright! I'm a ****ing warrior!

Not to mention that the guys in Delta crawled before they walked much less run. By the time that they entered the shoot house with live people down range they have probably done the exercise several hundred times (if not thousands of times) first in dry walk through's and then with non living targets. Even then, as you pointed out, people have died in training. To take a couple of shooters who don't appear to even be out of the crawling stage and ask them to sprint at full speed is negligent.

Safetyhit

06-16-09, 08:52

Bad guy: Gimme yo...dayum! He's got them little chicken leg...

Good guy: ***BANG BANG BANG BANG***

Bad guy: **THUD....gurgle**

So funny. :D

I am a fairly well built guy, but my calves have always been a bit lagging. Perhaps this could be my new secret weapon...

Iraqgunz

06-16-09, 08:52

It's easier than it looks. Stand up, hook up, shuffle to the door. Jump right out on a count of four. And don't forget to yell Geronimo! :D

You're in? That's awesome. I mean, I have no ****ing idea how you jump out of a plane and not end up going splat, but hey...why should that stop me from offering a course on it?

Safetyhit

06-16-09, 09:00

And don't forget to yell Geronimo! :D

For many it would be more like "Holy Shiiiiiiiiiii..........."

ToddG

06-16-09, 09:01

You're in? That's awesome. I mean, I have no ****ing idea how you jump out of a plane and not end up going splat, but hey...why should that stop me from offering a course on it?

Excellent. Please subscribe me to your newsletter. Also, do I need a password to read your forum?

buzz_knox

06-16-09, 09:02

One think gets lost when people try to translate training used by HSLD groups into training for civilians. The aforementioned HSLD groups undergo this training pursuant to orders and with essentially blanket immunity. As long as they don't fundamentally and criminally screw the pooch in a drill, they really do operate under "Big Boy's Rules." If they shoot someone and it wasn't criminal, they are essentially immune from legal repercussions although careers would likely be limited/curtailed. Even the organization itself is largely immune. That doesn't apply in the civilian world, for the organization or the individual. Liability waivers will not hold up if they shock the conscience of the court, and they certainly will not bar criminal prosecution for manslaughter if you screw up a shot when you know someone is down range.

KellyTTE

06-16-09, 09:05

You haven't seen a lot of stupid things, then, if "wearing shorts" and "standing between two targets while students blast away at point blank range" are equal in your mind.

Thank you. This is one of those, wow, you think THAT'S unsafe? Please.

Heck, you think that's the first dumb thing that they've done and put to tape?

Feast your eyes on this gem too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2JIla_0OhI

Irish

06-16-09, 09:39

Thank you. This is one of those, wow, you think THAT'S unsafe? Please.

Heck, you think that's the first dumb thing that they've done and put to tape?

Feast your eyes on this gem too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2JIla_0OhI

Idiots... Seems like Yeager has a bit of a past as well http://yeagerisscum.tripod.com/.

Steve

06-16-09, 09:43

Todd's never going to place himself at unnecessary risk. ;)

Precisely. You can get some really good shots from a completely safe angle.

The video shows, however, that the guy was literally right next to the targets with a group of shooters using live fire right by his anatomy.

EDIT:

http://greent.com/webimg/match/nc2003/sdh-1-small.jpg

What does that tattoo say?

ah yes the great Super Dave
I thought i could eat.

ToddG

06-16-09, 09:50

My favorite comment so far on the GOTX thread:

RogerSP: "If this is so unsafe, I wonder what these pussies think about a woman strapped to a wheel spinning around while some guy is throwing knives at balloons, cards or whatever."

That is just priceless.

Also a gem, from James himself: "I hear this 'trust' thing pop up a lot. Who kills the most SWAT Cops every year? SWAT Cops do. So it seems to me shooting with total strangers, like in a class, is safer than with someone you 'trust'."

Business_Casual

06-16-09, 10:06

This one is good:

because we go to train, not to play bullet golf.

M_P

John_Wayne777

06-16-09, 10:28

Yet more evidence of this "warrior" thing that infects like a virus and renders all rational thought on the discussion useless. XS sights are "warrior" sights, thus anyone who doesn't think they offer the best sighting option isn't a "warrior" who understands gunfighting. Being downrange is a "warrior" thing that you don't understand (Stay the **** out of our world!). If you understood you wouldn't see it as a big deal!

...nevermind that you don't find XS sights on every handgun in SEAL armories or that the real deal units have a bunch of rules, regs, and safety procedures governing downrange training.

When something can't be defended on its merits it gets wrapped up in this "warrior" packaging to try and insulate it from critical thought. This is, of course, absolute bullshit. Everyone who has been in a real-deal high speed unit will tell you that they have to do a hard critical look at their tactics, training, and procedures all the time and evaluate them for relevance, benefit, and ***GASP*** safety. There's none of that "This is my safety, sir!" bullshit in real life.

To paraphrase Ken, this stuff is inherently dangerous. It's a pretty bad idea to say that because we are doing something that is inherently dangerous we should essentially throw caution to the wind. It is treated as if when you sign up for training you are crossing a threshold into a realm of danger and that there are no longer any degrees of risk. That's ridiculous. While weapon training is in and of itself somewhat dangerous, the level of danger gets higher when you have people standing by the targets. That's objective fact.

The question then becomes why you are doing it and how you are doing it. On those counts I think the video shown in that link doesn't have a defense. The risks are real, the potential damage to the mindset of students is real (as evidenced by the thread in the echo chamber) and the benefit of the presentation as done is nebulous at best.

John_Wayne777

06-16-09, 10:38

My favorite comment so far on the GOTX thread:

RogerSP: "If this is so unsafe, I wonder what these pussies think about a woman strapped to a wheel spinning around while some guy is throwing knives at balloons, cards or whatever."

That is just priceless.

I think it's a great illustration. Often when it was done in shows it was a trick. Some people did it (and still do it) with real knives. They are doing it as a form of entertainment. There's little practical value involved, but it makes the audience ooh and aah.

The key difference is that if the magician asked someone in the audience to throw a Bowie knife at the face of the Lovely Janet, most would decline. Change it to a gun and have the Lovely Janet holding the target, and suddenly there are a bunch of people ready to give it a whirl.

Also a gem, from James himself: "I hear this 'trust' thing pop up a lot. Who kills the most SWAT Cops every year? SWAT Cops do. So it seems to me shooting with total strangers, like in a class, is safer than with someone you 'trust'."

I keep hearing "I've seen more dangerous stuff on the range before deer season!" come up.

I am mystified by this.

The fact that some random assclown who pulls out his rifle once a year behaves in an unsafe manner does not, in my mind at least, make it OK to fling rounds past somebody's head just for the sake of flinging rounds past somebody's head. (Or for the sake of getting some pictures.)

30 cal slut

06-16-09, 10:42

Its definitely Jay from TacResp, James is running spin control over at GotX to try and control the situation. The vid is making it the rounds all over the dramaweb as we speak. Right, wrong or in different, TR has a history of showboating unsafe practices such as this, placing pyrotechnics on students, etc.

I am not surprised at all by this video.

I refrain from commenting on TR, as I have not attended their training.

But my takeaways from this situation, which is causing all sorts of drama online...

1) The beneficial effect for TR is free advertising.

2) The negative effect for many of us is that instructors will be strict about forbidding the use of video cameras in class. This is going to suck balls because video footage is a valuable training reference.

3) I'm beginning to wonder when somebody from the MSM will pick this up and air it for some sensational anti-gun story. I can see the headline: "domestic terrorist instructor stands in front of militia training class."

Again, it's not the video that necessarily bothers me, it's the brouhahah it's causing.

exkc135driver

06-16-09, 10:43

What I find amusing is Gabe is on the topic bashing SWAT mag.

SWAT doesn't like Gabe, and he isn't real fond of SWAT.

Delta is rumored to use real live people downrange in certain training scenarios. Delta is a bunch of hardcore warriors.

. . .

The scenarios and training procedures used by elite units or that have been developed by exceptionally experienced instructors over DECADES of experience training elite warriors have been developed around specific goals and are designed to meet those goals while minimizing risk and maximizing the very real training benefit that they offer. Trying to replicate them without the complex understanding that went into developing them and what exactly makes them beneficial leads to goofy and dangerous shit.

The difference is simply this: Delta, the SEALs, et al. do this stuff full-time. That’s 8+ hours/day, 5+days/week, 48+ weeks/year. The guys in that class, as well as the vast majority of people on this forum, moi included, are just regular guys … butchers, bakers, and candlestick makers … who do other stuff for a living. There are few true HSLD guys here. Professionals in any field of endeavor are qualified to do things, and can do them (more or less) safely, that someone who has “some” knowledge about the field in question would completely screw up. So: those who put themselves at risk in an endeavor by trusting someone who is not a qualified, full-time professional in that endeavor get what they deserve.

... I would have no issue with standing down range with many of you ...

No offense y'all, but … I think I’ll pass on that.

d90king

06-16-09, 10:58

I also really like his "low ready" technique that he taught the guy in white (who just happened to look very confused:confused:)

Boomer10

06-16-09, 15:29

JW, I'll take that airborne course, but then it wouldn't be the first for me> :p

Why's everyone hating on shorts? I can't show off my sexy legs in pants. I consider shorts a combat multiplier because the BG is distracted laughing as why some dumbass wore shorts to a gun fight. :)

It worked for the Army soldier in Afghanistan didn't it?? ;)
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,521138,00.html

BT2012

06-16-09, 15:55

I call it SUICIDE BY TRAINING. End of story.

Rider79

06-16-09, 15:55

SWAT doesn't like Gabe, and he isn't real fond of SWAT.

I remember reading an article in SWAT about a year ago where they reviewed Suarez' "Counter Terrorism" class or something, and it was so bad with safety violations and off the wall techniques that the writer left or almost left halfway through.

Rider79

06-16-09, 15:57

Tactical Response - google the owner "James Yeager + Edinbourough Risk"

Some things will come into focus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8alt5C-yc4

He is the driver of the lead car.......

I'd like to know more about this.

Irish

06-16-09, 16:00

I'd like to know more about this.

Read post #73 which lists a site dedicated to him and Google the guy, plenty of info. Hope those gloves are working out good for you ;) Wifey and I may come by your work sometime soon, haven't checked it out yet.

Iraqgunz

06-16-09, 16:07

I won't completely bash the guy because I wasn't there. But, I know a few people within my circle who are very familiar with him and the incident. Basically he screwed up and it probably cost some lives. There have been rumblings in the past about TR and the training that goes on. Though some of it may be good I am in no hurry to be shot by some yahoo in training.

On as side note while attending some training back in 2006 at a famous location I was flagged 2 times by the guy behind me during turning (react to contact) drills. The instructor chastised him twice. I got a little pissed and told him if he did it again I was going to shoot him myself. Personally I think he should have been sidelined. Mind you this was a person with combat deployments and training.

I'd like to know more about this.

Rider79

06-16-09, 16:08

Anytime, just give me a call.

Read post #73 which lists a site dedicated to him and Google the guy, plenty of info. Hope those gloves are working out good for you ;) Wifey and I may come by your work sometime soon, haven't checked it out yet.

Rider79

06-16-09, 16:12

I won't completely bash the guy because I wasn't there. But, I know a few people within my circle who are very familiar with him and the incident. Basically he screwed up and it probably cost some lives.

If he's the person they say he is in the video, it appears as if he bails out of the lead car and runs to the ditch on the left. The view of him is partially blocked after that, so I really can't see much else. I've never been ambushed in a vehicle, but from what I understand you're supposed to drive through it and get out of the kill zone if you can, not park and bail out? I'm going to guess there's alot more to this situation.

Iraqgunz

06-16-09, 16:27

Rider,

For all intents and purposes every unit/ company has their own SOP's as to how to react to an attack. Since the type of attack can vary (simple IED) complex attack, etc... there are no rules that are absolutely set in stone. Generally the practice is to push through the attack and "get off the X". Stopping is genrally considered a NO GO because you are now completely vulnerable and inevitably you will be sucked in to a protracted gun fight.

The key thing is TRAINING and knowing your equipment which also means your vehicle. It is my understanding that very little of that was happening. I'll keep the rest of my opinions to myself.

If he's the person they say he is in the video, it appears as if he bails out of the lead car and runs to the ditch on the left. The view of him is partially blocked after that, so I really can't see much else. I've never been ambushed in a vehicle, but from what I understand you're supposed to drive through it and get out of the kill zone if you can, not park and bail out? I'm going to guess there's alot more to this situation.

Rider79

06-16-09, 16:34

I'll keep the rest of my opinions to myself.

Yeah, I just went to the yeagerisscum website. Wow. I can't get these XS sights off my Glock fast enough. :eek:

Rider79

06-16-09, 17:45

NCPatrolAR

06-16-09, 17:57

If he's the person they say he is in the video, it appears as if he bails out of the lead car and runs to the ditch on the left. The view of him is partially blocked after that, so I really can't see much else. I've never been ambushed in a vehicle, but from what I understand you're supposed to drive through it and get out of the kill zone if you can, not park and bail out? I'm going to guess there's alot more to this situation.

I've sat there and listened to Yeager state what happened during the ambush. The story, according to him, is that he was tired and had put the car in neutral and set the parking brake in order to give himself a break. They saw a white SUV roll by, do a u-turn, and come back and that's when the shooting happened. The SOP for the detail was to either drive out of the kill zone or bail out of the disabled vehicle, bound back, and either un out of the kill zone or acquire a vehicle and drive off. Yeager readily admits he screwed up by setting the brake, but states he did the right thing when bailing out, opening the backdoor for the rear occupants to exit, start to bound back, etc. He also states there were a great number of mistakes made by everyone out there and holds that a lot of them were due to the British team members not wanting to train.

Is all of that true? I dont know....I wasnt there and am going off of what Yeager said as the video played behind him. ANyone who knows me knows that I'm not the first person to defend Tactical Response or Yeager, but I think the Iraq thing gets commented on too quick sometimes. Now if you want to talk about tactics taught, I'll make my opinion known. :)

NCPatrolAR

06-16-09, 18:00

So I joined GetOffTheX to see what they had to say, and I see this on the first page:

"It is unlikely that you will have anything to add to the majority of this forum if you have never carried a gun on a daily basis. It is very unlikely that you will have anything to add to this forum if you have only played paintball or Airsoft. That doesn't mean we don't welcome you; it simply means that we expect you to keep your mouth shut and just read."

Really gives you the feeling that you can ask questions of things you don't understand on there, huh? I think that's the last time I'll be over there. The only time I've seen more gun-related Kool-Aid drinking is on the Oly forum or the Larue threads on TOS.

When Yeager created GOTX, he did so after a "break up" with the crew on Lightfighter/Brad Nelson. When his forum was created he said it would never be the clique that Lightfighter was and all opinions were welcomed as long as you could back them up. That is certainly not the case and reminds me of my time with Tony Blauer and his fan club.

I think videos like these and the comments made on them (from GOTX members) just helps to push that group further into the black sheep category.

Safetyhit

06-16-09, 18:04

So I joined GetOffTheX to see what they had to say, and I see this on the first page:

"It is unlikely that you will have anything to add to the majority of this forum if you have never carried a gun on a daily basis. It is very unlikely that you will have anything to add to this forum if you have only played paintball or Airsoft. That doesn't mean we don't welcome you; it simply means that we expect you to keep your mouth shut and just read."

Really gives you the feeling that you can ask questions of things you don't understand on there, huh? I think that's the last time I'll be over there. The only time I've seen more gun-related Kool-Aid drinking is on the Oly forum or the Larue threads on TOS.

Unfortunately they validate the term "gun-nuts". A bunch of unstable morons.

Seem like little dicked fools looking be something worth a shit, but in reality they are an embarrassment.

Rider79

06-16-09, 18:10

...they are an embarrassment.

Speaking of embarassment, after reading what they say about XS sights over there, and the one guy's tagline for them, "Go Big or Go Home", I feel embarassed for using them for so long. After I get some good practice in this week with my new Warrens, they're going in the parts bin, never to be seen again.

ToddG

06-16-09, 18:21

Heavy Metal

06-16-09, 18:25

My favorite comment so far on the GOTX thread:

RogerSP: "If this is so unsafe, I wonder what these pussies think about a woman strapped to a wheel spinning around while some guy is throwing knives at balloons, cards or whatever."

That is just priceless.

Todd, please dont tell them Pro Wrestling is not real also........and whatever you do, don't mention what you really know about SANTA CLAUS!

Rider79

06-16-09, 18:33

Todd,

I'm being kinda facetious about the BigDots, but after reading your posts, and doing my research, I am pretty excited to see what the Warrens can do for me.

JohnD

06-16-09, 19:00

Interesting video.

It reminds me of a company that goes back pre-9/11. The company was doing training in UAE and firearms was one of the courses along with other subjects. At the end of firearms training the Instructors were required to stand between the targets down range while the UAE students fired. How would that make you feel? I had 2 buddies that refused to do it and they were released from their contracts and sent back stateside. Happy of course to be in one piece with no extra holes!!

Also want to add this,

STUPID WILL ALWAYS BE STUPID. You can not rationalize or justify stupid. Even these military units people put on high podiums as Gods make mistakes, stupid mistakes. What would you say if a high speed military group of snipers went to a KD range to conduct night fire and had people on the berm next to the targets to mark them and report the hits back to the shooter and spotter. Then shot one of the guys on the berm center mass of his chest! It happened. Stupid will always be stupid no matter who the group is.

John_Wayne777

06-16-09, 21:05

So, I certainly won't recommend XS Big Dots ... as many here know. But if they're working for you, don't let their supporters influence your decision to use or dump them. A lot of the GOTX crowd love Glocke, too. I bet many of the most die-hard anti-TR folks still love their Glocks.

As for the "Go big or go home" guy, I believe he works for XS. So it's just a company tag line in his signature.

Again, don't think I'm telling you that XS sights are worthwhile. I think they're lousy for anything that might actuall benefit from having sights on a pistol. But if they've worked for you, don't let some silly folks change your opinion about your gear.

If I found out the Center Axis Relock crowd was migrating in droves to the P30, I'd still carry mine.

What he said. If XS sights work for you, great. Drive on. I've said many times that sights are highly personal items and that one size doesn't fit all. Use what works best for you.

There's only a problem when some insist that they are objectively the greatest sights EVER and that anyone who disagrees is incompetent or not a "warrior".

NCPatrolAR

06-16-09, 21:37

Someone just sent me the following quote:

These people who complain about the safety of Tactical Response students have probably never attended formal training anyway.

I wonder if those guys are getting tired of patting themselves on the back for being such great warriors. :rolleyes:

ToddG

06-16-09, 21:53

I wonder if those guys are getting tired of patting themselves on the back for being such great warriors. :rolleyes:

From the thread on GOTX:
"This ****ers are just Jelous it´s not them and they don´t have the guts to do it."

I would say, then, that the answer to your query is no.

Heavy Metal

06-16-09, 22:52

These people who complain about the safety of Tactical Response students have probably never attended formal training anyway.

Whoever said that is simply as wrong as two boys ****ing. Their comment is just that gay. It is so gay it gave itself teh aids. It is so gay, it makes Elton John look straight. It is so gay, it makes Richard Simmons seem straight.

Steve

06-16-09, 23:19

I just never really understood the hole high ready thing....

I mean what does it do that SUL, low ready, contact ready third, eye, dieter, air masrshall etc... do?

I mean I'am not new to training i have about 400+ hours from various places. but jeesh

hell even LAV say's I have my own version of low ready. :D

K.L. Davis

06-16-09, 23:58

mmx1

06-17-09, 00:04

ljlinson1206

06-17-09, 00:14

No ball busting required. It's a good question.

Yes, many of us have been through training that would qualify as "downrange"...but it was that: Training.

Here we are not presented with training. We are presented with a guy who went by the targets to get some pictures. I'm presuming from the video that he didn't stand by everybody's target during the course. Thus the whole notion of promoting the training benefit of standing by the target is dead from the get-go. If he didn't do this by everybody's target, then it really wasn't training, was it? Then the argument would have to be that because some people do downrange training that being downrange is no big deal so you can just saunter down there and take some pictures, because really it's no big deal...and that argument is obviously a non-starter.

On TR's echo chamber I see that some are mentioning Ken Hackathorn's name, which is ****ing bogus.

I've been through Ken's drills as have a few others in this thread. Comparing one of his signature "downrange" drills to TR's photography stunt is comparing apples to zebras. During the drill many are referencing in regards to Ken there is ONE shooter, and that shooter is being watched like a ****ing hawk by Ken, by the AIs, and by all the other participants in the drill. The student generally has to run it dry or with a blue gun first to work out the technique and to make sure they understand all the concepts.

In other words, it is a universe away from what you see in the video in question.

The problem evident in the video is the problem that plagues the training industry in general, namely monkey-see, monkey-do. Somebody sees that respected instructor X or high speed unit Y has someone "downrange" for a specific training benefit, think that it's a splendid idea, and then proceed to imitate without FIRST having a firm grasp on WHY it is being done, HOW it is being done, and what sort of preparation precedes the moment where it is done.

Delta is rumored to use real live people downrange in certain training scenarios. Delta is a bunch of hardcore warriors. We all wanna be warriors, right? So we need to have people downrange too! Bob, go stand by that target while I shoot at it! Hey, I didn't kill Bob! Alright! I'm a ****ing warrior!

It's bass-****ing-ackwards.

The scenarios and training procedures used by elite units or that have been developed by exceptionally experienced instructors over DECADES of experience training elite warriors have been developed around specific goals and are designed to meet those goals while minimizing risk and maximizing the very real training benefit that they offer. Trying to replicate them without the complex understanding that went into developing them and what exactly makes them beneficial leads to goofy and dangerous shit.

Delta and Devgru and all those other high-speed guys do a LOT of things because of the nature of their job that is ****ing dangerous, and people get killed just TRAINING to do the missions they undertake. Yet if I was to offer a sweet super-high speed Delta inspired jump course where we put you through 6 hours of training and then shove you out the back of a C130, there wouldn't be many takers. Why? Because if you screw up you will ****ing D-I-E. There is a hell of a lot more preparation involved in getting someone qualified to do something as outrageously stupid as jumping out of the back of a perfectly good airplane than what I could cover in such a short time. Everybody with more than 2 brain cells firing can see that from a mile away.

...yet if I change it from a jump school to a shooting school suddenly I've got all sorts of takers. When guns are involved critical thinking skills seem to go right out the window.

I don't know exactly why this is. I have some pet theories that I'd wager aren't too far off, but that's another thread.

Good question, and hopefully I've given a rough outline of the answer, and your testicles are unmolested. :D

Hopefully more of our SMEs and IPs here will chime in with a more thorough explanation than I can give you.

We are humbled by your wisdom!!!! I don't think a better explination CAN be given.

threeheadeddog

06-17-09, 07:57

Looking at the video I see someone who's choices would make me worry considerably if I were to ever be offered this class.

On the other hand and the real reason I am posting that this thread has brought up something that I feel very strongly about.

For whatever reason that person thought the risks of getting those pictures was worth it. I dont agree with him but that doesnt matter he felt that way. What we I am talking about here is Freedom. I believe adults should be allowed to make there own choices provided they dont hurt others. People can legally in some states ride motorcycles without a helmet while concerned soccer moms in completely different states who already dont allow riders to ride without helmets will lobby to have a federal law requiring helmets because "the risks arent worth it". Our very rights to own guns are constantly under attack because some people think "the risks arent worth it".

Let me tell you something I dont give two shits if someone thinks "the risks arent worth" me having firearms and truthfully as long as we are not the guy down range we shouldnt either.

This really does go back to Big-Boy-Rules you reap what you sow and you pay for your bad choices; wear shorts and skin a knee, ride without a helmet and end up in a casket, take a hole in the chest for a picture. We are all responsible for our chioces I cant stand other people trying to protect me from myself. I dont smoke and I think its a bad choice considering the consequences but people should be allowed to make their own choices, its their life.

Who knows one day I may decide to jump out of an airplane with out a chute. There will be a bunch of people on the internet watching the video saying what an idiot, but you know what 99% of the ride would be worth it, the last 1% would suck.

I also understand the argument that this is just giving fuel for some other person to copy and get hurt, but again ... choices.

Sorry if I write a bit disjointed my mind tends to trail off. I hope what I wrote was semi-understandable.

John_Wayne777

06-17-09, 07:58

I think it is important to realize that there are several different things being talked about here...

I have been involved in range drills that put a person in front of the line many times; one in particular is a very good contact and cover drill that is always very well received.

Now, the details (always details) are that this is very controlled, only two at a time and only one shooter at a time, they two men have history, the range is close, these are very experienced people, and most importantly... there is a real value to the drill, the experience far outweighs the very controlled risk.

What I see in that video is none of the above; that is a mob trying to play Checkers with a Chess Set.

What should be examined more is *why* does an instructor put a person in front of the line and who are the principals...

Bingo.

The 180 degree range rule thing is a red herring. There's nothing wrong with real downrange training in and of itself...it's all about the details of how it is conducted. They keep bringing Ken Hackathorn's name up as a defense, but you don't see any video of people standing by the targets taking pictures during live fire in any of his courses.

As Ken would say, this would be a "clue" about the validity of that argument.

EzGoingKev

06-17-09, 08:09

Paul D

06-17-09, 09:37

I would just send that video to that training company's liability insurance company. I would be interested to see if their rates go up or stay the same.

NCPatrolAR

06-17-09, 09:48

Unless it has changed, it's either individual home owner policies or national organization insurance that doesn't cover non-organization approved courses that aren't taught on a home range.

the1911fan

06-17-09, 12:02

I have questioned the safety of some training drills and have even sat a few out due to not being completely comfortable with the drill or the people (students)doing the drill or sometimes both. And I admit the drills did have training value but having done similar drills with people I knew and trusted vs. not knowing and not trusting I made my judgement call, after all if I am worried about taking one in the back I ain't gonna get much from the training experience. Plus I am getting older and have a hell of alot more to lose than I did when I was 25.

But there is no rational reason to do the picture taking like they did as there is no value in it whatsoever.

Cush1220

06-17-09, 13:12

I don't understand all the bs about clothes and attire in this thread. We all here train, and you are suppossed to train as you fight. What if you are out on a relaxing time with the family and you are wearing shorts or something else less covering. And God forbid, some shit goes down and YOU have to take care of business and do God's work? What are you some of you guys saying? Wait and go change into the cool-guy khaki 5.11's? No... You grab your shit and get down to ****ing business with what you have on. I can't believe some of the pissing match i am reading in this thread..... This isn't an attempt to fight over attire. Just saying You have to make do with what you have.....

Cush1220

06-17-09, 13:59

Looks like TR pulled the video off of photobucket.

Titleist

06-17-09, 15:34

The internetz don't give up their bounty quite so easily:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqboR6gjOi8&feature=channel_page

BiggLee71

06-17-09, 18:28

uuuuuhhhh,i think i'll stick with my current school/intructor. :) now before i make this statement,i just wanna be clear.i do not work for nor is this a plug for any paticular instructor/school. first of all,about the video,i was flabergasted when i first saw it.i really thought that photog was gonna get one.i really thought it was going to be some sorta "training accident" video.i was disappointed. that has to be some of the dumbest shit i think i've seen...ever!(and i'm old n seen alotta dumb shit!).the sickest/saddest part of all this stupidity is that there are ass-clowns out there ooohing n aaaahing saying to themselves"wow,those guys are hardcore/real deal.i gotta get to that school to do some cool stuff like that!" normal people would see that video and run in the other direction of that school.that brings me to my second point,schools/instructors.there are very few instructors/schools who are truly qualified to teach.guys who have received the best training our government provided them and then put that knowledge and training to the test thru actual combat.those guys are few and far between.most of them are well known and readily accessible to willing students.then,threre are the rest.the wannabe's.guys with over-inflated ego's,who for some strange reason,feel they are authorities on the subject matter.i have nothing but laughter for all these tacti-cool wanna-be's.now,they really seem to be pushing the envelope,not with cutting edge tactics/training but with how idiotic they can be. MSG paul howe wrote in his book about "poisonin the well".let's hope that fools like this doesn't poison our well in shooting sports.the anti-guners are patiently biding their time to ambush us with anti-gun legislation.lets hope that idiots like these aren't the catalyst.
JW,lucky for the photog,"el-snatcho" wasn't around huh?

photosniper

06-17-09, 21:30

Just saw this. I don't have the real world experience any of you guys have, I'm just a lowly photographer. But I've never seen such flagrant disregard for safety as what was shown in the video.
I am the team photographer for the local SWAT team, I've worked with most of the guys on the team for a few years. I've done some "down range" photography with the team but never, NEVER anything this stupid.
At the very minimum the photog should have been wearing a ballistic vest, I don't go to training without one.
The sad part in all this is some dumb teenagers are going to see this video, think it's a great idea (the down range photos) and end up killing one of their friends.

DMR

06-17-09, 21:35

damn, finaly get to a computer that will pull this kind of stuff thats locked on the work server and the links out.......

Safetyhit

06-17-09, 21:35

The sad part in all this is some dumb teenagers are going to see this video, think it's a great idea (the down range photos) and end up killing one of their friends.

Excellent point.

13F3OL7

06-17-09, 22:51

damn, finaly get to a computer that will pull this kind of stuff thats locked on the work server and the links out.......

Check post #132 above. Someone was kind enough to post a link to the video on Youtube.

NCPatrolAR

06-18-09, 08:18

We just touched on this in an instructor class I'm taking. Everyone in the room thought it was a stupid thing to do.

John_Wayne777

06-18-09, 08:31

We just touched on this in an instructor class I'm taking. Everyone in the room thought it was a stupid thing to do.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_qGh6rUBexUk/SgML-vcgs3I/AAAAAAAABb0/ePjAnxRG744/s320/Fred+Sanford+Heart+Attack.jpg

It's the big one, Elizabeth!!

I'm shocked. Utterly SHOCKED that a room full of people in a so called "instructor development" class would think that sending someone to the targets to take some pictures during live fire is a bad idea. This is all dangerous shit, and if you ain't ready to come hard and heavy, you ain't trainin'!! Hooah!!!

Risk management is for pansies!

K.L. Davis

06-18-09, 11:46

Risk management is for pansies!

Sing it brother! They say GAR, I say GARRR*

*Really Red

John_Wayne777

06-18-09, 13:30

Probably my favorite quote so far:

Want to know why it takes dudes in elite units 1000's of hours to "qualify" to do such training - because someone said so. Someone in a position of "authority" deemed it to be true and so it was. And their programmed response was "yes sir, three bags full sir, may i have another sir". And so the myth of "it takes 1000's of hours and tens of thousands of rounds downrange to do that stuff" self perpetuates. It's institutionalized self preservation. They want you to believe all of that is required and there's some magical special sauce. Their status, reputation, and in some cases livelyhood depends on it.

See Tactical Responses approach is prune out all the uncessary bullshit, boil it all down to exactly what you need to accomplish the mission, then execute. So when Tactical Response can train their students to make solid accurate hits regardless of what's near or around the target in a matter of hours - it really pisses off all those people that "know" it takes more.

ToddG

06-18-09, 13:34

We just touched on this in an instructor class I'm taking. Everyone in the room thought it was a stupid thing to do.

I showed it to the senior firearms instructor and senior "SWAT" guy from a big federal agency this morning.

Their reactions, in polite terms, also reflected a general sense of disagreement with the practice demonstrated.

Their actual reactions cannot be quoted here due to forum rules against excessive profanity.

NCPatrolAR

06-18-09, 14:01

Probably my favorite quote so far:

So much BS it isn't funny. Their mindset is one more of brainwashing than warrior-hood

John_Wayne777

06-18-09, 14:13

I dunno, man....

I, for one, find it refreshing to hear that the line that separates Delta and an ordinary schmuk like me is completely imaginary.

Ed L.

06-18-09, 16:07

Tungsten

06-18-09, 16:21

Wait, wait. So is this person implying that you can be as good as someone in an elite unit like the FBI HRT or a US Tier 1 military unit by just taking a weekend class?

Shit... just for cracking the code, you have attained WARRIOR status! ;)

CarlosDJackal

06-18-09, 16:23

Want to know why it takes dudes in elite units 1000's of hours to "qualify" to do such training - because someone said so. Someone in a position of "authority" deemed it to be true and so it was. And their programmed response was "yes sir, three bags full sir, may i have another sir". And so the myth of "it takes 1000's of hours and tens of thousands of rounds downrange to do that stuff" self perpetuates. It's institutionalized self preservation. They want you to believe all of that is required and there's some magical special sauce. Their status, reputation, and in some cases livelyhood depends on it.

See Tactical Responses approach is prune out all the uncessary bullshit, boil it all down to exactly what you need to accomplish the mission, then execute. So when Tactical Response can train their students to make solid accurate hits regardless of what's near or around the target in a matter of hours - it really pisses off all those people that "know" it takes more.

So basically, they are confirming that we don't need to take any of the TR courses to become proficient at this stuff. Good to know!! :p

larry0071

06-18-09, 16:30

After reading all of this, I just became a Green Berret specialist SOCOM black-ops Navy Seal Ninja Matrix-Master super warrior of the most elite status. I should now contract myself out for what......? $10,000 an hour? I am a United States Gun Owner, that makes me a SOLDIER!

(PS - I read it on the internet, so it has got to be true!)

KellyTTE

06-18-09, 18:28

And finally, he feels compelled to respond.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R3t0wuLDWQ

Ya look tired James. Not getting much sleep?

riddlin

06-18-09, 18:48

At the 58sec mark....."Because firearms are designed to kill people."

The anti's will eat that up. Thanks James Yeager:rolleyes:

KellyTTE

06-18-09, 18:51

At the 58sec mark....."Because firearms are designed to kill people."

The anti's will eat that up. Thanks James Yeager:rolleyes:

Yeah. Then at 2:50ish, encouraging people to come train with him to see how much better it is. The reality is that when James' has been called out in the past, he's always responded with an FU. For him to record a 10min video rebutting all this is pretty telling.

Irish

06-18-09, 18:54

While I don't agree with alot of his excuses I do commend him for addressing the subject, no matter how wrong he is. If he'd put away his arrogance and listen to the vast majority of professional gun fighters and trainers he would learn alot. Instead of being adamant about being right try admitting your mistakes and learning from them.

BiggLee71

06-18-09, 18:56

[QUOTE=riddlin;392390]At the 58sec mark....."Because firearms are designed to kill people."

wow,thanks for pointing that fact out james.

CryingWolf

06-18-09, 19:20

At the 58sec mark....."Because firearms are designed to kill people."

I guess I didn't get the memo.

QuietShootr

06-18-09, 19:31

For me, this video is turning into a litmus test, and those that defend or even apologize for it are falling into the list of people I would prefer never to train under or next to.

Agreed. As some of you said, there are SOME people I would be, and have been downrange of with no problem....but I didn't see any of them (or anyone displaying traits of any of them) in that video.

QuietShootr

06-18-09, 19:35

John_Wayne777

06-18-09, 19:45

Let's examine the response video, shall we?

1. True safety does not exist -- He points out that a lot of what we do in day to day life is dangerous, but seems to move on without really spending much time here explaining what he means here. Does he mean that because we do things that are somewhat dangerous in day to day life that one more won't hurt? That the risk of being downrange of high velocity projectiles fired from firearms is overblown, what?

2. The 180 degree rule isn't actually a rule of firearms safety -- Well, no, it isn't one of the big rules. It is used in certain circumstances, however, to prevent people from getting shot. Is it a sacred and inviolable principle that if violated will rape the virgin Mary? No. Still, those neat little noisemakers in our hands *DO* actually kill people, and when you've identified an area that people are going to be flinging lead across it would be good to avoid having anything you don't want punctured in that area. Hence the rule. Yes, there are reasons for breaking it. Most of us agree on that. What we don't appear to agree on is when and how you go about doing that. That's the discussion I would like to see that I have not yet seen from the TR folks.

3. Internet commandos too afraid to train -- Ummm....Alrighty, skip.

4. We run the safest training company that exists -- Ummm....Care to cite some stats from some other schools there? I mean, it's one thing to state that you haven't had any injuries, but to claim the banner for safety? That's a tad much.

5. If you aren't willing to fire a round with someone in front of or off to the side of you on the range, what about a gunfight? -- This is, in my view, another attempt to distract from the core issue at stake. I don't see too many switched on people arguing that there is no validity under any circumstances to having some sort of "downrange" training. The open question is how it's conducted and when it is appropriate.

6. Every day you drive down the street a short distance from other vehicles -- Yes, that's entirely true. And you're doing that in a society where driving is extremely common, accidents are extremely common, and where various government agencies, auto manufacturers, and insurance groups have invested literally billions into research and development of safety systems to do something about the THOUSANDS of automotive deaths we as a society suffer every year, not to mention billions of dollars in damages from accidents, medical bills, etc.

The comparison really doesn't work. It is much more socially acceptable to have a car accident than it is to shoot somebody in the face. There is a HUGE difference in perception between somebody who drifts a little too far over the line and hits another car, and somebody who lets another dude walk downrange and then shoots him.

7. A little bit in front o the firing line -- Again, we're not talking about someone who broke the imaginary 180 degree line that we draw to the left and right of a muzzle. We are talking about someone who was literally standing between the targets people were shooting at during live fire.

8. People drive down this street -- yes...in vehicles which are designed to handle crashes and impacts with minimal risk of injury to the driver. They are driving generally with considerable liability coverage at every moment while they are behind the wheel. They are doing so in an activity that is 100% socially acceptable and that does not draw a second glance in our society. That's not really the same thing as standing beside the targets during live fire without all of that protection. When I'm driving down the road at 30 MPH in my vehicle I have the option of taking evasive action if someone is heading right for me. I do not have the ability to steer the bullet once it leaves the barrel of the weapon.

Yes, there is a level of risk inherent in both activities...but that's about where the comparison dies, in my view.

9. The students paid more attention to their actions than when there's just paper downrange -- Well that's good. If, however, your students really need to have someone physically standing downrange while they shoot beside them to grasp just what it is they are holding in their hands then they have much more fundamental issues that need to be addressed, and sticking a living breathing no shoot down there to remind them of safety isn't really the best idea, in my view.

10. Putting people in front of the firing line makes people safer -- Ummm....Ok. Remember the video. We have a guy standing between the targets where live fire is taking place. Having people dump lead to his immediate left and immediate right while he takes pictures is making them safer.

Think really hard about that one, folks...we have an instructor teaching his students that having people down there by the targets while they shoot at them is actually making them safer. We've gone from it's necessary stress innoculation, to it's not a big deal because we do dangerous shit all the time, to now it's actually a safety practice.

11. We're not looking for the 10, we're not looking for the 80. -- Jesus. :rolleyes:

12. The most realistic training available -- Jesus. :rolleyes:

sparrow

06-18-09, 21:13

That is indeed Tactical Response, that situation occurred during a Fighting Pistol course I took last year(my second with them). Jay(who is a hell of a good fella) takes the pictures in a mixed class with varying levels of skill and on my course he took that picture on day 1. I can see no compelling reason why a picture has to be taken in such a manner, it certainly has no training merit. However that is not the most dangerous thing Tactical Response does. The most dangerous thing they do is allow people who have taken their classes to believe that they are capable of then delivering show boatish drills to others, many who are completely out of their lane and dangerous. The second thing that makes the "followers" so dangerous is that they are completely deaf to any criticism or suggestion, I have been completely ostracized by their local contingent(guys who have been good friends) for even bringing up things like vetted training or even a tiered approach to live fire drills. Hell even with my agencies reality based training we step up the learning objectives before going full ninja and we're using sim rounds. I think Tactical Response is capable of providing decent firearms training should they decide to tone down the Hollywood gun camp in Warrior guise. In the end however my first class with them was in 2005 and after much reluctance my second and last in 2008. I am sure they will get over it;) and as they say, all publicity is good publicity.

Heavy Metal

06-18-09, 21:27

So much BS it isn't funny. Their mindset is one more of brainwashing than warrior-hood

You mean like a tacti-cool Jim Jones?

sjohnny

06-18-09, 21:52

Let's examine the response video, shall we?
...
9. The students paid more attention to their actions than when there's just paper downrange -- Well that's good. If, however, your students really need to have someone physically standing downrange while they shoot beside them to grasp just what it is they are holding in their hands then they have much more fundamental issues that need to be addressed, and sticking a living breathing no shoot down there to remind them of safety isn't really the best idea, in my view.

10. Putting people in front of the firing line makes people safer -- Ummm....Ok. Remember the video. We have a guy standing between the targets where live fire is taking place. Having people dump lead to his immediate left and immediate right while he takes pictures is making them safer.

Think really hard about that one, folks...we have an instructor teaching his students that having people down there by the targets while they shoot at them is actually making them safer. We've gone from it's necessary stress innoculation, to it's not a big deal because we do dangerous shit all the time, to now it's actually a safety practice...

I just watched this video and my wife is in the room and was listening. At this part that was referenced above my wife offered: "People probably pay a lot more attention to how they're driving when they've been drinking but that doesn't make them safer or make it a good idea."

ToddG

06-18-09, 22:00

Instead of being adamant about being right try admitting your mistakes and learning from them.

Ironically, most of the "alumni" responses in the GOTX thread -- which has since been closed, after some opposing viewpoints were posted & deleted -- revolve around the fact that the rest of us are so closed minded. What makes us closed minded? Apparently our unwillingness to agree with them. The most vocal supporters of this "they're closed minded!" approach are also the ones who clearly dismiss any attempt at logical discourse on the subject.

My favorite part about all of this so far, though, was a comment the photographer himself made on another forum (DefensiveCarry.com I believe). He explained that they don't use a tripod for the camera because -- I am not making this up -- the tripods always tend to get shot. Ya think?

One thing is certain, though. The first time someone is injured in one of their classes and sues, there will be a line of subject matter experts a mile long that can point out where TR's training fails to meet minimal accepted safety standards. Now, their customers might not care. Based on the response in the GOTX forum, a lot of them love the fact that TR tosses such concerns to the wind and lets everyone go balls to the wall. Fine & dandy. But when one of those rounds hits a rock and ricochets into the photographer's kidney, suddenly "COMBAT STRESS" is going to take on a whole new meaning for everyone present.

The simple fact is there are plenty of other ways to induce substantial stress and risk for a student without actually endangering someone's life.

sparrow

06-18-09, 22:06

The simple fact is there are plenty of other ways to induce substantial stress and risk for a student without actually endangering someone's life.

Amen Todd...I am sorry emergency surgery saw me give up my spot on your course last year...I won't miss the next one.

DMR

06-18-09, 22:12

ok now I've seen both vids. I know I'm just a simple grunt that went to a couple of cool schools along the way but i now know a school I won't attend. If I wanted someone to blow me about how hard I was I would have gone for a massage:D

The funny thing is I used to tell my troops alot that in general those that thumped their cheast the hardest in garrision would often be the first to fold in contact.

Rest in peace SGM Albert......... you would have had a good time with this guy.

KellyTTE

06-18-09, 22:16

I received an email (who also happens to be a Mod here aamof) a while back that summed it up quite succinctly:

Tactical Response Training is considered really good training by people who haven't experienced really good training yet.

ToddG

06-18-09, 22:20

Amen Todd...I am sorry emergency surgery saw me give up my spot on your course last year...I won't miss the next one.

If you were a WARRIOR you wouldn't have let something like mere major surgery keep you from attending a class!

As penance, next class you have to take the photos ...

VA_Dinger

06-18-09, 22:22

My favorite part about all of this so far, though, was a comment the photographer himself made on another forum (DefensiveCarry.com I believe). He explained that they don't use a tripod for the camera because -- I am not making this up -- the tripods always tend to get shot. Ya think?

:D

I swear a Hollywood screen writer could not make this shit up. That is absolutely mind-boggling.

Brother Rat

06-18-09, 22:38

Also, he misquoted Thucydides as Heraclitus. Just my nitpick.:D

Heavy Metal

06-18-09, 22:40

I guess that tripod just wasn't warrior enough.

This one goes out to all the good folk shooting at the walls of heartache over at GOTX.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn9lpMUJOq8

John_Wayne777

06-18-09, 22:45

My favorite part about all of this so far, though, was a comment the photographer himself made on another forum (DefensiveCarry.com I believe). He explained that they don't use a tripod for the camera because -- I am not making this up -- the tripods always tend to get shot. Ya think?

I had to go see it for myself.

I'm stunned.

The students can't master not shooting the tripod, so we'll put a breathing no-shoot down there instead!

Wh....I ju.....If you......damn. Just.....damn.

Outrider

06-18-09, 22:47

A nine minute rambling response that ends with a commercial for his school. Excellent.

According to James it's "a scientific fact- true safety does not exist." Science called. It doesn't want anything to do with James Yeager.

Placing a photographer between two targets in a live fire drill is dangerously stupid. I heard his claim that this practice makes his shooters safer because they become more focused. If his shooters cannot be properly focused to shoot well when it's just paper then his shooters have no business doing anything like this.

Invoking the Cult of the Warrior, warrior training, etc. to justify any of this is disgraceful.

KellyTTE

06-18-09, 22:59

The part that gets me is his 'the other guys car might fail or the driver might be impaired'...

Well DUH. The shooter's gun might malfunction, or a round might frag coming out of the barrel and send shrapnel all over. The shooter might slip while kneeling (it was a kneeling drill), any number of things can happen out of the photog's control. Analogy fail.

Dunderway

06-18-09, 23:03

I guess that tripod just wasn't warrior enough.

This one goes out to all the good folk shooting at the walls of heartache over at GOTX.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn9lpMUJOq8

Someone really needs to make an extended edit of that video with the song you posted mixed over it. Slow motion of the really confused guy would be great.

G34Shooter

06-18-09, 23:42

Yeager's response:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R3t0wuLDWQ

chadbag

06-19-09, 00:01

Yeager's response:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R3t0wuLDWQ

funny how he does not allow uncensored comments to be made to the video.

NCPatrolAR

06-19-09, 00:16

funny how he does not allow uncensored comments to be made to the video.

Yeager and crew aren't good at handling opposing view points. To be a forum dedicated to the open exchange of ideas, GOTX is pretty quick to delete a thread or comment that they don't care for

JLM

06-19-09, 02:24

Jimmy is still around? I figured by now he would have forgotten to engage the parking break and drove off a cliff :cool:

You simply can not make this shit up, its so out there. Wow.

Isn't his book called "HIGH RISK Civilian Contracting" ? If so, aptly named.

rob_s

06-19-09, 04:17

My favorite part about all of this so far, though, was a comment the photographer himself made on another forum (DefensiveCarry.com I believe). He explained that they don't use a tripod for the camera because -- I am not making this up -- the tripods always tend to get shot. Ya think?

I vote we change the cliche "dumb as a post" to "dumb as a tripod" in honor of this jackass.

Maybe he was Chinese in a former life?

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/TargetPractice.jpg

JLM

06-19-09, 04:35

No ball busting required. It's a good question.

Yes, many of us have been through training that would qualify as "downrange"...but it was that: Training.

Here we are not presented with training. We are presented with a guy who went by the targets to get some pictures. I'm presuming from the video that he didn't stand by everybody's target during the course. Thus the whole notion of promoting the training benefit of standing by the target is dead from the get-go. If he didn't do this by everybody's target, then it really wasn't training, was it? Then the argument would have to be that because some people do downrange training that being downrange is no big deal so you can just saunter down there and take some pictures, because really it's no big deal...and that argument is obviously a non-starter.

On TR's echo chamber I see that some are mentioning Ken Hackathorn's name, which is ****ing bogus.

I've been through Ken's drills as have a few others in this thread. Comparing one of his signature "downrange" drills to TR's photography stunt is comparing apples to zebras. During the drill many are referencing in regards to Ken there is ONE shooter, and that shooter is being watched like a ****ing hawk by Ken, by the AIs, and by all the other participants in the drill. The student generally has to run it dry or with a blue gun first to work out the technique and to make sure they understand all the concepts.

In other words, it is a universe away from what you see in the video in question.

The problem evident in the video is the problem that plagues the training industry in general, namely monkey-see, monkey-do. Somebody sees that respected instructor X or high speed unit Y has someone "downrange" for a specific training benefit, think that it's a splendid idea, and then proceed to imitate without FIRST having a firm grasp on WHY it is being done, HOW it is being done, and what sort of preparation precedes the moment where it is done.

Delta is rumored to use real live people downrange in certain training scenarios. Delta is a bunch of hardcore warriors. We all wanna be warriors, right? So we need to have people downrange too! Bob, go stand by that target while I shoot at it! Hey, I didn't kill Bob! Alright! I'm a ****ing warrior!

It's bass-****ing-ackwards.

The scenarios and training procedures used by elite units or that have been developed by exceptionally experienced instructors over DECADES of experience training elite warriors have been developed around specific goals and are designed to meet those goals while minimizing risk and maximizing the very real training benefit that they offer. Trying to replicate them without the complex understanding that went into developing them and what exactly makes them beneficial leads to goofy and dangerous shit.

Delta and Devgru and all those other high-speed guys do a LOT of things because of the nature of their job that is ****ing dangerous, and people get killed just TRAINING to do the missions they undertake. Yet if I was to offer a sweet super-high speed Delta inspired jump course where we put you through 6 hours of training and then shove you out the back of a C130, there wouldn't be many takers. Why? Because if you screw up you will ****ing D-I-E. There is a hell of a lot more preparation involved in getting someone qualified to do something as outrageously stupid as jumping out of the back of a perfectly good airplane than what I could cover in such a short time. Everybody with more than 2 brain cells firing can see that from a mile away.

...yet if I change it from a jump school to a shooting school suddenly I've got all sorts of takers. When guns are involved critical thinking skills seem to go right out the window.

I don't know exactly why this is. I have some pet theories that I'd wager aren't too far off, but that's another thread.

Good question, and hopefully I've given a rough outline of the answer, and your testicles are unmolested. :D

Hopefully more of our SMEs and IPs here will chime in with a more thorough explanation than I can give you.

JW, I think you mentioned some of those particular drills from Ken before. Can you elaborate on what you actually did?

It might have been in one of the class AAR's I don't know.

BiggLee71

06-19-09, 05:10

guy's,another thing i find strange is tr and its headmaster preaching about "warrior mindset","warriorhood" or whatever or however else they're trying to market their b.s to their kool-aid drinkers.now all that stuff is fine and dandy but i really only have one question,what qualifies yeager to talk about "warrior mindset?" has he gone thru sf school? was he operational with delta or devgru?was he a 20 yr force recon marine?hell,even a grunt/combat in one of the services would be a good place to start.i mean, what qualifies this man to tell others about how to become a warrior? when was he such a "warrior" that he speaks of?what has he done in his life that makes him a "warrior" who is capable of training other "warriors?" i am well aware of his backround and to me its borderline pathetic that a dude with such little experience with "warrior ethos" would be a self proclaimed "warrior!" i guess his "warrior mindset" really shone thru in that iraqi ambush,when he ran behind a berm and most likely used his m4 as an e-tool,tryin to dig his way to china.

believeraz

06-19-09, 06:35

I used to moderate an industry-specific sub-forum for GOTX, at James' invitation. I left after watching censorship of opposing views become the norm, and my threshhold for resonsible behavior on part of other mods and the staff be exceeded. I never trained with them, and reasons like this episode were one reason why.

I don't doubt for a second that James, Jay and company mean well in the training they deliver. Meaning well is not my yardstick for successful delivery however.

I have done plenty of live fire training in my career, but it has been consistent in crawl/walk/run execution, safety controls, strong situational awareness, as well as eliminating unncessary risks. I wasn't there, but from the video each of those seemed missing.

To the poster who thought it intelligent to criticize Ernie Langdon for wearing shorts: outshoot him and you can criticize his wardrobe to your heart's content. I somehow doubt you'd mouth off to him or anyone else in person like you did from the safety and anonymity of the internet. Geographically induced consequences (GIC) and all.

KellyTTE

06-19-09, 07:20

what qualifies yeager to talk about "warrior mindset?" has he gone thru sf school? was he operational with delta or devgru?was he a 20 yr force recon marine?

Someone asked that on another board and here's what I know. He's not former .mil, and after his run for Sheriff, he thanked his wife for a birthday present of a set of Samurai swords and for 'sticking by him, even though he's been fired from every LE job he's ever had', and obviously, his foray into PSD work went poorly.

So, I'm not really sure what really it is that he relies on.

John_Wayne777

06-19-09, 07:23

JW, I think you mentioned some of those particular drills from Ken before. Can you elaborate on what you actually did?

It might have been in one of the class AAR's I don't know.

I've never described the drills that Ken uses in any detail because Ken specifically requested that those of us who have been through the drill not share the details. What I can tell you (and the other guys who have been through them before can tell you if I am lying here) is that when they are done, they are done in a completely different manner than what you see in the TR video.

First of all, nobody is standing by the target. One shooter runs through the drill, and that shooter is being watched like a hawk by Ken and the other participants in the drill. Ken demos the drill, dry runs it, and even has students dry-run it with empty weapons or blue guns.

CryingWolf

06-19-09, 08:41

My favorite part about all of this so far, though, was a comment the photographer himself made on another forum (DefensiveCarry.com I believe). He explained that they don't use a tripod for the camera because -- I am not making this up -- the tripods always tend to get shot. Ya think?:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Did this photographer ever win any awards for this? Might remind him he could win one called the Darwin Award.:rolleyes:

Vic303

06-19-09, 09:22

Looks like they pulled the video. It's not at that original link any more...

CryingWolf

06-19-09, 09:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqboR6gjOi8

Once on the internet always on the internet.

Anyway, one thing that is getting me now. I would ask Tactical Response if the shooter, say the guy in the blue shirt who looks to be a novice shooter, shoots and seriously injures or kills the photographer is it really worth what that shooter would go through? Did Tactical Response ask the shooters if this was ok?

Tungsten

06-19-09, 10:08

Let's examine the response video, shall we?

1. True safety does not exist ...

The thing that stood out most to me was the fact that James has resorted to using a tactic that has traditionally been the domain of Liberals and Leftists to explain away everything that was wrong with the photographer video. Namely... RELATIVISM.

Does daddy get drunk every night and beat you? Don't blame him! He wasn't hugged enough as a child.
Is that photographer risking his life just to look bad-ass in front of the students? Hey guy! Who the hell are YOU to criticize? You drive a car every day. That's DANGEROUS too!

Liberals have always resorted to relativism anytime their arguments cannot stand on their own merit. Deny, confuse and obfuscate. ****, I just washed my car in the driveway and the water made things pretty slick. That's some DANGEROUS shit right there. I guess I must be a Warrior now.

Mac5.56

06-19-09, 11:06

The thing that stood out most to me was the fact that James has resorted to using a tactic that has traditionally been the domain of Liberals and Leftists to explain away everything that was wrong with the photographer video. Namely... RELATIVISM.

Does daddy get drunk every night and beat you? Don't blame him! He wasn't hugged enough as a child.
Is that photographer risking his life just to look bad-ass in front of the students? Hey guy! Who the hell are YOU to criticize? You drive a car every day. That's DANGEROUS too!

Liberals have always resorted to relativism anytime their arguments cannot stand on their own merit. Deny, confuse and obfuscate. ****, I just washed my car in the driveway and the water made things pretty slick. That's some DANGEROUS shit right there. I guess I must be a Warrior now.

I guess I could use this thread as a way to rant against Theocracy, Conservatives, Socialism, Communism, Free Market Capitalism, or (insert ism here), but I'll pass.

ToddG

06-19-09, 11:10

Two thoughts on the "warrior mindset" issue:

You do not need to be a 20-year veteran of Task Force Delta Six Recon to understand warrior mindset, just like you don't have to survive an encounter with a school of sharks to teach someone open water survival. Plenty of people have had plenty of experiences which relate to having a survival mentality and a fighting spirit. Having said that, you obviously set yourself up if you make "my warrior past" a big part of your self-promotion when in fact you have no such past.
I'm currently taking a class (not directly related to firearms) and my "lab partner," so to speak, is a former FBI agent who spent most of his career teaching combat mindset for the Bureau. He is now a consultant who makes lots of money teaching the same thing to agencies around the world. I showed him the video. His response was, "They're not really that stupid, are they?"

I suppose one could prove his fighting determination/warrior mindset by chopping off his own right leg. Personally, I wouldn't attend a class where that was expected of the students.

CarlosDJackal

06-19-09, 12:24

I've never described the drills that Ken uses in any detail because Ken specifically requested that those of us who have been through the drill not share the details. What I can tell you (and the other guys who have been through them before can tell you if I am lying here) is that when they are done, they are done in a completely different manner than what you see in the TR video...

I also suspect that Ken's purpose for doing these things has nothing to do with obtaining a good photo.

John_Wayne777

06-19-09, 12:33

Your suspicions are correct, sir.

sparrow

06-19-09, 12:45

If you were a WARRIOR you wouldn't have let something like mere major surgery keep you from attending a class!

As penance, next class you have to take the photos ...

Roger that...though I think the penance should really be for not saying something at the time...:(

Ray

Mac5.56

06-19-09, 13:09

I have been following this thread from the get go. As someone who grew up around guns, and whose father is a certified oil and gas industry safety instructor, the stupidity of this video really got my attention.

Personally I have always known there are plenty of 'yahoos' in the shooting world, but this entire situation tops my list of stupidity. It has also taught me a lot about what to look for in a beginning level firearms training course.

I would like to thank you all for continuing this debate, it is helping me understand a lot about what to look for regarding wording, attitude, ext when it comes schools. To tell you the truth anyone that promotes a "warrior mentality" will probably be passed by on my part after this thread

Sidewinder6

06-19-09, 14:17

Actually, I think we need a Tactical Response support thread HERE:

http://thepsychopath.freeforums.org/the-anti-narcisissist-narcissisist-t5584.html

JLM

06-19-09, 14:32

Face_N_The_Crowd

06-19-09, 14:49

Some of my personal favorites.....

0:42 - "True safety does not exist"

Correct. However unnecessary risks can be foreseen and thus avoided.

7:42 - "Putting people down range makes people safer"

While the shooter *may* be more deliberate in their actions you have still created an unnecessary risk for Mr. Shutterbug.

4:11 - "You see many people think they will rise to the occasion, that's just not true. A lot of people have been told that you will default to your level of training, that is also a lie. You will default to the level of training you have mastered".

See, now would been a perfect time for Ol' James to discuss his level of knowledge related to parking brakes........

Think about it..... LEO with limited experience..... no MIL experience that got hired on, who then makes a simple mistake, easily corrected if he had kept his head. Instead he decided to leave his position of cover and his bleeding buds to run away and lay down in an open swale and become a non player in a bad unfolding situation - he is the guy that wants to teach you how to be a warrior........... Like mail order Nina Lessons out of the back of Rolling Stone....

ETA - what is up with the obvious edits, funky shoulder and hand twitches??

I wonder if his insurance carrier has seen this little film?

30 cal slut

06-19-09, 15:00

And finally, he feels compelled to respond.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R3t0wuLDWQ

Ya look tired James. Not getting much sleep?

i watched.

apart from the "warrior" commentary at the very end, i have to say, mr. yeager brings up some interesting points / analogies.

1. Debatable. "If you get into a real gunfight with friendlies downrange, how are you going to fight if you don't practice it while you're training?"

2. Reasonable. "Students are more focused and safe when there is somebody downrange during training because they are keenly focused on that fact."

3. Resonable. "We do all sorts of dangerous things on a daily basis, like driving at high speeds, with opposing traffic only feet away from a collision."

On the other hand, a person commented on that youtube vid something that's also reasonable:

James, your logic is fatally faulty. If I'm about to crash into someone with my car, I can steer, brake, accelerate, blow my horn, any number of things to either prevent, avoid, or ameliorate the damage of a car accident. Once a bullet leaves the barrel of a gun, one's influence on it is over.

13F3OL7

06-19-09, 15:01

Irish

06-19-09, 15:01

ETA - what is up with the obvious edits, funky shoulder and hand twitches??

Must be from Captain Clutch's PTSD ;) or maybe a mild case of Tourette's Syndrome.

Mac5.56

06-19-09, 15:41

Some of my personal favorites.....

Think about it..... LEO with limited experience..... no MIL experience that got hired on, who then makes a simple mistake, easily corrected if he had kept his head. Instead he decided to leave his position of cover and his bleeding buds to run away and lay down in an open swale and become a non player in a bad unfolding situation - he is the guy that wants to teach you how to be a warrior........... Like mail order Nina Lessons out of the back of Rolling Stone....

Will someone fill me in on the situation he got in that is illustrated above, and elsewhere in this thread?

NCPatrolAR

06-19-09, 16:44

Tungsten

06-19-09, 18:24

Watched most of the video and had issues with a lot of what he said. Most of which have been touched on already. But the biggest issue I had with the whole thing is that he was carrying right out in the open when he was standing in or next to that road saying whatever that bull was about driving. Yeah, it was tucked into his pants, but the grip was plainly visible. I don't pretend to know what state he was in and it's laws concerning firearms but to me that screams stupidity and just makes him that much more of a target.

As has been stated, TR is here in Tennessee. Tennessee issues Handgun Carry Permits, not concealed carry permits. The thinking of our legislators at the time was that by removing the "concealed" stipulation, there would be less on the field calls by LEOs who might otherwise be called in if someone flashed their gun while reaching for a box of Fruit Loops on the top shelf at the local supermarket.

Not to steer this thread off topic, but I disagree with open carry for a variety of reasons, the least of which not being that I think it is tactically a dumb idea. Sadly some of residents of our state choose to use their firearm as a form of passive activism and elect to open carry for that reason alone. I'm sure Yeager's decision to have his firearm exposed isn't motivated by that so much as it is by machismo.

Anyway, TR has been an off-and-on issue of conversation for a few years now on a forum that I run for Tennessee gun owners. Given that TR is essentially a neighbor (in the state-wide sense) we've dealt with our fair share of insufferable TR KoolAid drinkers over that same time period. Suffice it to say that even here in his home state, James doesn't get a whole hell of a lot of support.

ToddG

06-19-09, 18:27

1. Debatable. "If you get into a real gunfight with friendlies downrange, how are you going to fight if you don't practice it while you're training?"

How does a stationary photographer kneeling next to stationary targets for stationary shooters simulate what "friendlies" downrange will be doing in a dynamic situation?

Here's my thought: get used to moving targets and moving shooters before you start talking about "real gunfights," especially if you're choosing to use a live human being as part of your backstop.

2. Reasonable. "Students are more focused and safe when there is somebody downrange during training because they are keenly focused on that fact."

Sure they are. They'd be more focused if you put the target on top of their cars or simply told them they'd be kicked out of class if they have a miss, too. The difference is that the photographer-downrange route risks someone's life needlessly.

3. Resonable. "We do all sorts of dangerous things on a daily basis, like driving at high speeds, with opposing traffic only feet away from a collision."

The driving analogy, however, is the double edged sword that ruins their argument. Because yes, we do drive at high speeds against opposing traffic on a daily basis. And as the number of people driving at high speeds against opposing traffic increases, the rate of accidents goes up. Every single day in this country, people driving at high speeds against opposing traffic die in accidents. Hello?

I've had loaded guns pointed at me accidentally dozens of times. I've never been hurt. Does that mean pointing loaded guns at people accidentally is safe? I'm pretty sure the answer is no ...

Another thing I was thinking about this afternoon, as far as "The Nine" and warriors are concerned. For those who don't know the reference:

"Of every one hundred men you send us, ten shouldn’t even be here, eighty are nothing but targets, nine are real fighters… We are lucky to have them… They make the battle. Ah, but the one, one of them is a Warrior… and he will bring the others back.” - Heraclitus

So here's my question: did the nine attain that status after one day in an open-enrollment training class? I'm thinking probably not ...

Iraqgunz

06-19-09, 19:01

Let me say what I really feel. He is the Grand Master of The Society of Assclowns. He had no business being in Iraq at all. Unfortunately he was one of those who slipped through the cracks and was able to get here because os some perceived status.

I find it totally ironic that he is involved with "getoffthex" when his idiot self couldn't get off the x when it counted. Where the f*ck was his warrior spirit that day? Did he leave it in the sock drawer? What really scares me is that there are people out there carrying weapons and possibly working overseas that have OD'd on his Kool-Aid.

Maybe he should have studied up about the reverse out technique when you can't go forward.

JLM

06-19-09, 20:40

Here's a little 'gem' from their FAQ page:

Are your courses “certified”?
This is an odd question for us. Certified by whom? Our company is backed by professional liability insurance and is as “certified” as anyone else. One thing is certain though and that is you will be a certified badass after our class!

Neato :cool:

the1911fan

06-19-09, 21:05

Here's a little 'gem' from their FAQ page:

Neato :cool:

The Tactical Response Diploma

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/6285108/WALLET.jpg

Irish

06-19-09, 21:08

the1911fan

06-19-09, 21:11

It should say "Dumb Mother ****er" :D I never their site existed until now and I've been reading over there with morbid curiosity. I think 1/2 the guys over there would drop and blow Yeager, Suarez and Thomas from what they've posted. Some of the most ridiculous crap I've ever seen.

A little photoshop skillz and it'd be perfect, the little I've heard of this Yeager was bad. The Thomas you mention is that Duane Thomas?

Irish

06-19-09, 21:13

A little photoshop skillz and it'd be perfect, the little I've heard of this Yeager was bad. The Thomas you mention is that Duane Thomas?

Ben "Mookie" Thomas - SEAL wannabe and internet badass! I don't know that much about him but I know enough to steer clear of bad apples and from everything I've read he is one of those.

He also tried to foster his reputation as being the sniper in Najaf who is famous for the "Turkey shoot" line which he is not. I believe that gentlemen resides over on this forum ;)

Safetyhit

06-19-09, 21:26

He also tried to foster his reputation as being the sniper in Najaf who is famous for the "Turkey shoot" line which he is not. I believe that gentlemen resides over on this forum ;)

You referring to the Blackwater clip?

Shadow1198

06-19-09, 21:29

So basically their argument amounts pretty much to this, "Hey we're gonna put a camera guy in front of the firing line so you can train like the SEALs and Delta Force so you too can be a 1337 operator!". ;) Give me a F'in break. Yeah, the Tier 1 types can train like that because they are the best of the best and probably shoot a few hundred thousand rounds or more a year and are about as one with the gun as a human being can be. So somehow that's supposed to translate to Joe Dirt redneck, Mr. Mall Security Guard and their buddies and all their low left trigger yanking glory can somehow do the same thing and it's safe. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! All it takes is one good flinch and that camera man was in just the right position that low left = headshot. ;)

I have been entertained in the past by the fighting pistol/rifle dvd's I've seen from TR, but honestly this whole situation and Yeager's BS attempt to justify it just made up my mind for me that I'm not wasting the money on taking classes through them when there are plenty of good instructors out there that have actually BTDT.

thopkins22

06-19-09, 22:57

I have been entertained in the past by the fighting pistol/rifle dvd's I've seen from TR, but honestly this whole situation and Yeager's BS attempt to justify it just made up my mind for me that I'm not wasting the money on taking classes through them when there are plenty of good instructors out there that have actually BTDT.

The DVD's didn't include some of the questionable stuff they seem to have incorporated into their program lately. My main beef with the DVD's is that they are outrageously expensive.

They were big on scanning 360 degrees in the DVD's, but they were doing it from Sul, not at high port as they seem to advocate now. The DVDs were decent, but the MD ones have made them obsolete in my opinion. In the DVDs they showed proper use of a sling, now I've seen a YouTube video of them suggesting we wear the two point sling as a necklace.

Solid

06-19-09, 23:56

Yeager and crew aren't good at handling opposing view points. To be a forum dedicated to the open exchange of ideas, GOTX is pretty quick to delete a thread or comment that they don't care for

They also delete the threads about problems with forums like this one and glocktalk. :D

supersix4

06-20-09, 00:51

So here's my question: did the nine attain that status after one day in an open-enrollment training class? I'm thinking probably not ...

They GOT IT by attending Yeager's class....

:rolleyes:

his 'response' confirmed what kind of organization he runs

Yeager=tool

chadbag

06-20-09, 01:17

You referring to the Blackwater clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKGP4DjEzQ4&NR=1

yes, he is known to be on this forum.

subzero

06-20-09, 01:44

Normally I'm not on TOS but it's slow at work and I'm bored. Ran across this and LOLed hard. I'm not trying to kick someone while they're down, but if you can't laugh at these in the context of this thread, you gotta lighten up.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=888867&page=1

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3380/3642569633_f29451f376_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3602/3642569419_173ef05e28_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3345/3642569797_7c02e37113_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3331/3643377230_2c2abb087b_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3129/3642569721_1588b3be9b_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3582/3642569355_83227491ab_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3356/3642569389_53fc600e13_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3630/3642569325_c8ebb9731a_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3297/3642569671_a7d5a79e1d_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3577/3643377134_b83e1d3885_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3398/3643377010_565912d4dd_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3193/3643376894_07ef41db3c_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3316/3643376966_804e2e2ac4_o.jpg

dookie1481

06-20-09, 01:58

Haha I love how the guy in Africa (?) has the life preserver on like the famous AK-wielder.

Jay

Iraqgunz

06-20-09, 03:36

Holy shit that made my day!

Mark71

06-20-09, 04:07

Haha I love how the guy in Africa (?) has the life preserver on like the famous AK-wielder.

Jay

That is by far one of the funniest pics I have seen :D

Erk1015

06-20-09, 05:32

Dude that's awesome

88redryder88

06-20-09, 05:35

That seriously made me LOL :D
good stuff

30 cal slut

06-20-09, 05:47

How does a stationary photographer kneeling next to stationary targets for stationary shooters simulate what "friendlies" downrange will be doing in a dynamic situation?

Here's my thought: get used to moving targets and moving shooters before you start talking about "real gunfights," especially if you're choosing to use a live human being as part of your backstop.

Sure they are. They'd be more focused if you put the target on top of their cars or simply told them they'd be kicked out of class if they have a miss, too. The difference is that the photographer-downrange route risks someone's life needlessly.

The driving analogy, however, is the double edged sword that ruins their argument. Because yes, we do drive at high speeds against opposing traffic on a daily basis. And as the number of people driving at high speeds against opposing traffic increases, the rate of accidents goes up. Every single day in this country, people driving at high speeds against opposing traffic die in accidents. Hello?

I've had loaded guns pointed at me accidentally dozens of times. I've never been hurt. Does that mean pointing loaded guns at people accidentally is safe? I'm pretty sure the answer is no ...

Points well-taken, Todd. If it's okay with you I'll cut and paste these on Mr. Yeager's YouTube vid (unless you want to do it yourself). This is more in the interests of those who might try to imitate the original video.

30 cal slut

06-20-09, 05:48

the life preserver was a nice touch, lol.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3297/3642569671_a7d5a79e1d_o.jpg

Iraqgunz

06-20-09, 07:42

I just watched that moronic response from Yeager. Are you f*cking for real? What a tool. Please encourage everyone you know to quit spending money for training with that clown.

keysersoze

06-20-09, 10:06

The video's gone, never got to see it, anybody have it?

KellyTTE

06-20-09, 10:15

BEST ONE EVAH:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/akgc8/Ambush1.jpg

NCPatrolAR

06-20-09, 10:22

The video's gone, never got to see it, anybody have it?

both should still be on YouTube

keysersoze

06-20-09, 10:32

Thanks NCPatrolAR!

As for the ERMS video, I have that. :eek:

Safetyhit

06-20-09, 11:29

Normally I'm not on TOS but it's slow at work and I'm bored. Ran across this and LOLed hard.

This is the best thing to come from TOS in ages. Hilarious. :D

sandman99and9

06-20-09, 11:37

the life preserver was a nice touch, lol.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3297/3642569671_a7d5a79e1d_o.jpg

Hey, maybe it's a ballistic life preserver vest ??

s.m.

chadbag

06-20-09, 12:23

Someone posted Yeagers response again to YouTube and this one you can make comments on though they seem to be moderated as there is a delay until they show up and not every one I put got posted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YYd8Rh50g4

John_Wayne777

06-20-09, 12:35

So he took down the response video as well?

Why make the response video if you're going to take it down? Why start a thread asking people to discuss the 180 range rule (even though this thing had nothing to do with the 180 degree range rule) only to delete any comments that aren't favorable or questions that are uncomfortable or to completely delete the thread?

Why open yet another thread on the same issue?

Doesn't seem to me like they have much of a plan for responding to all of this.

d90king

06-20-09, 12:45

Doesn't seem to me like they have much of a plan for responding to all of this.

Nope, if they were that smart, the first video would have been destroyed! :rolleyes:

NCPatrolAR

06-20-09, 12:54

NCPatrolAR

06-20-09, 13:00

the videos are still on YouTube. In fact, it appears people are making "copies" in case the original gets deleted

decodeddiesel

06-20-09, 15:08

Those photochops were outstanding...I almost pee'd myself.

As to the response....wow, just wow.

This Yeager Iraq incident, I have heard bits and pieces but does anyone have the real low down?

NCPatrolAR

06-20-09, 16:38

Solid

06-20-09, 16:53

Those photochops were outstanding...I almost pee'd myself.

As to the response....wow, just wow.

This Yeager Iraq incident, I have heard bits and pieces but does anyone have the real low down?

You can find a video of it on the internets. Also a release from the security company, there is also a run down from Yeager, but that may be biased for his own sake.

Sidewinder6

06-20-09, 16:54

That Photoshop work is classic. As I scrolled down I increased my laughter. Someone has waaay too much time on their hands, but did produce an internet classic. Thank you for posting that. You made my day.
:cool:

BiggLee71

06-20-09, 18:17

lmao! those photoshop pics are freakin hilarious!someone should email them to yeager!

KellyTTE

06-20-09, 18:18

Someone needs to do that 'Hitler Gets Banned from XBox' video as Yeager.

THAT would be tits.

Iraqgunz

06-20-09, 21:40

They must be screening the responses or something because thus far I have yet to see one of mine posted.

ToddG

06-20-09, 22:01

They must be screening the responses or something because thus far I have yet to see one of mine posted.

Maybe if you started with something more friendly than "You're all worthless and weak!" ...

http://tommcmahon.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/10/02/neidermeyer2.jpg

redsox20

06-20-09, 22:55

]
This Yeager Iraq incident, I have heard bits and pieces but does anyone have the real low down?

I found the AAR if you want all find it again and send you a link.

mike

CarlosDJackal

06-20-09, 23:41

James Yeager's Safety Philisophy (quoted from his video response): "...safety is, this untainable thing. It doesn't exist.... That's not only from a philosophical standpoint, it's a scientific fact. True safety does not exist..." :eek:

Then goes on to mention the Four Cardinal Safety Rules as Tactical Response briefs them. But if safety doesn't exist, why does Tactical Response bother to have these? Particulalry rule four (1:24): "Be sure of your target and what is beyond it, and in front of it, AND BESIDE IT" (he even followed this up, "that's the way we teach it"). :confused:

Then he refers to the previous video and states that (1:39), "None of the four firearms safety rules were broken with the cameraman standing downrange..." :rolleyes:

Does anyone else see a contradiction with these statements? I'm very disappointed at how stupid TR has become!! :mad:

chadbag

06-21-09, 00:28

Just in case people are looking for it on YouTube

Here is the training video itself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqboR6gjOi8&feature=channel_page

And here is the Yeager response video -- this one was put up by someone other than Yeager so you CAN make responses and they (eventually) show up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YYd8Rh50g4

As of right now both are still active.

I think this is way beyond what Yeager and his fanbois can control and is not what he head in mind. This may be the beginning of the end of TR (especially if his iability insurance company gets wind of this)

KellyTTE

06-21-09, 00:49

As of right now both are still active.

I think this is way beyond what Yeager and his fanbois can control and is not what he head in mind. This may be the beginning of the end of TR (especially if his liability insurance company gets wind of this)

Yup, James is a big NRA fan, and I'd be willing to bet at least part of his insurance is carried thru them. The fact of the matter is that he did four things monumentally wrong:

1) He did something that impacted his companies reputation.

2) He dirtied his hands directly by saying that Jay's actions were condoned by TacResp.

3) He barked back and gave the pundits a chink to exploit. By acknowledging a petty problem he gave it existence and credibility. The more he posts and makes videos the more he fuels the fire.

4) Be careful who's ass you kick today, 'cause you might have to kiss it tomorrow. James has been telling people 'FU' for years. Well, karma sucks dawg.

Iraq Ninja

06-21-09, 02:34

I found the AAR if you want all find it again and send you a link.
mike

I don't have much to say in regards to the photographer incident, but I do have something to say about this April 2005 incident. What AAR are we talking about? The one James wrote or the company?

I have never trained with TR, but bumped into James at the Embassy pool once way back in 2005 I think.

Since this event happen over four years ago, I have read on the internet many armchair quarterbacks talking about what he did wrong and costing people their lives. I was not on this mission, but once sat in on a detailed debrief by Mark Collen, the minimi gunner seen in the video. I don't recall him saying anything negative about James, other than the fact that he stalled the car and that James might not have been able to see the shooter from his location.

Unless you have been on the receiving end of a PKM, you don't have a clue what it is like. I don't care how many stress fire push ups and laps you ran in your "training course", it don't even approach what happens when Russian hardware is raining down on your ass. I have been in three major contacts involving PKM fire directed at my dog tags. I was wounded once. Not a big deal and I am not a hero by a long shot. I just did my job.

Bottom line is that it sucks and that unless someone turns into a quivering bowl of jello and refuses to act, I have no problems with someone's actions if they attempt to adhere to the basic drills and SOPs. Granted, James may have moved away from the vehicle to a position that he could not see and engage the enemy. At least he did something. Was it the right thing to do? Maybe not, but at least he acted.

Other people on the team may have a different story. I respect that.

Route Irish was a shit storm during this time. The week prior to this incident, my vehicle was blown up by a VBIED about a mile from this attack. Once again, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I was still licking my wounds from that one when James' team was hit, AND my company was hit again in the same week, resulting in our first fatality. OK, James did shoot up a vehicle and kill a driver that was approaching their location after the incident. The driver didn't turn out to be a threat, just an ignorant Iraqi who died. In those days, you had to act quickly. At least he was skilled enough to be able to stop the driver.

Getting back to the main incident, I seem to remember that the majority of the injuries to those in James' vehicle were the result in the initial volley of fire. James admits he screwed the pooch, but when PKM rounds are going through your soft skin vehicle, you tend to forget things. The real heroes are those who can rise above the situation. James was not a hero, nor was he a villain.

My point is that these types of incidents really suck and people make mistakes. It chaps my ass to read about people trying to critique someone's actions based on videos and AARs, yet they have never been in someone's sight picture other than an airsoft pistol.

Erk1015

06-21-09, 06:11

My point is that these types of incidents really suck and people make mistakes. It chaps my ass to read about people trying to critique someone's actions based on videos and AARs, yet they have never been in someone's sight picture other than an airsoft pistol.

Exactly, the guy might be a douche, but since (as far as I know) nobody here was there that day, none of us can really say anything about that incident without talking out of our ass.

As for the camera guy thing, I think that it was pretty dumb of him to get on youtube and try to defend it, if you're receiving a lot of "hate mail" about something, then maybe as a responsible instructor you should try to figure out if the folks with an opposing view have a valid point instead of saying I'm right, you don't know anything and I'm a WARRIOR dammit. As somebody else mentioned this didn't seem to be about having somebody down range while you're shooting or everybody in the class would have had their very own camera guy to shoot at. It seems like they were just trying to get some cool pictures and since "safety doesn't exist" it wouldn't really matter if home boy stood next to the target, in front of it, or anywhere else.

As a side note I haven't attended any of their classes yet, but since somebody brought up the Tier 1 operators using people down range does anybody know if LAV, Paul Howe or any of the others use this type of training for their classes? I worked for a company with some of this class of shooter and never experienced anything like this and it seems to me that since the average dude isn't going to be clearing buildings or taking back airliners and doesn't have the millions of rounds that these dudes throw down range every year or the years of experience and training to get to their level, that it's probably not an essential drill for a majority of folks attending a class.

d90king

06-21-09, 08:45

Exactly, the guy might be a douche, but since (as far as I know) nobody here was there that day, none of us can really say anything about that incident without talking out of our ass.

As for the camera guy thing, I think that it was pretty dumb of him to get on youtube and try to defend it, if you're receiving a lot of "hate mail" about something, then maybe as a responsible instructor you should try to figure out if the folks with an opposing view have a valid point instead of saying I'm right, you don't know anything and I'm a WARRIOR dammit. As somebody else mentioned this didn't seem to be about having somebody down range while you're shooting or everybody in the class would have had their very own camera guy to shoot at. It seems like they were just trying to get some cool pictures and since "safety doesn't exist" it wouldn't really matter if home boy stood next to the target, in front of it, or anywhere else.

As a side note I haven't attended any of their classes yet, but since somebody brought up the Tier 1 operators using people down range does anybody know if LAV, Paul Howe or any of the others use this type of training for their classes? I worked for a company with some of this class of shooter and never experienced anything like this and it seems to me that since the average dude isn't going to be clearing buildings or taking back airliners and doesn't have the millions of rounds that these dudes throw down range every year or the years of experience and training to get to their level, that it's probably not an essential drill for a majority of folks attending a class.

LAV, has never done this at any class I have attended of his... You are stuck with Ansel Templar Adams taking pics from the side...

Iraq Ninja

06-21-09, 09:09

I think for this discussion there are two forms of "down range" training. The first is a training aid to ah... help the shooters shoot better. The other is what you find in the military- people being downrange as a result of training drills and not so much as confidence drills, yet they do give you confidence in your team's abilities.

For instance, yesterday we were at the range and working on immediate action drills for breaking contact. The 180 rule was broken all the time as we bounded people to the rear. But, we never think of these drills as confidence training per se. All of us are former military.

In the past we have also made mock hallways and had teams of two leapfrog down the hallway with M4s. We basically had a 3 foot gap between us and our partner's bullets. My assistant team leader (former Brit Spec Ops) came up with the idea based on his previous training. Yes, it was very dangerous but it was something I wanted my team to do. We never thought about it as being "character building" or anything other than training we needed to do. We were one of the few teams that did this training. Others sadly didn't want to be bothered with going to the range other than doing qualification shoots.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d127/Iraqninja/Gun%20stuff/high.jpg

rob_s

06-21-09, 09:27

IN, your post reminded me of this discussion elsewhere.

I think there are a few issues at play here. One of those, and the more important IMHO, is who is actually seen in the original video. They are NOT contractors, soldiers, cops, or any other professionals that carry guns and use them as part of their jobs. The students I see in the video also appear to be very new to what they are doing, at best, as they do not look at all smooth, comfortable, or proficient with their gun handling and draw strokes. So, at least my take is that, what we have here is a whole bunch of average joes that have very little firearms experience.

I think that anyone can plainly see a difference in the guys in your photo and the shooters in the original video. Frankly I would be surprised if someone told me that there was an absolute hard 180 rule in military training and that nobody was ever forward of a muzzle. Having never done it I don't know what the norm is, but I know that if I was headed overseas with a group of guys I would want to train with that group of guys I'd want to be training for the situations we would find ourselves in, and I would just assume that would mean guys down range form one another.

I don't think I've seen anyone, in any of the various discussions of these videos, on any of the sites/lists/etc. discussing them, say that downrange training has absolutely no place ever for anyone. What I think the issue most people have with the video is THAT GUY, being where he is, doing what he's doing, with THOSE SHOOTERS.

ToddG

06-21-09, 10:11

The 180 rule was broken all the time as we bounded people to the rear.

The 180 thing is a red herring. People who are familiar with this type of training are not saying the photographer was unsafe because of a 180 rule. But that is what TR is grasping at because -- like plenty of other instructors -- they insist that you cannot train in a strictly 180-degree environment. By trying to shift the discussion to "180 vs 360" and away from "is it smart to put a guy right between two close targets with apparently unconfident and inadequately prepared/trained shooters firing in his immediate direction?" they're essentially dodging the real issue.

The mere presence of a human being somewhere on the half of the planet you are facing towards does not automatically make something unsafe. I've been there plenty of times (see some of my photos earlier in this thread).

It's completely different when you put someone on the same line as the targets. The number of possible accidents is staggering. Just a few examples off the top of my head:
Student yanks a shot ... I've seen Master- and Grand Master-class champion shooters miss targets completely under the stress of a game. To pretend that a morning of training "to be a warrior" can eliminate that potential is foolhardy.
Student gets a bad grip and cranks off a round without proper sight verification ... again, seen plenty of the pros (fighting & gaming) do that.
Student has an AD during a reload when the gun may not be pointed exactly at his own target. Seen it plenty of times.
Round ricochets off a target stand. Seen it plenty of times.
Round ricochets off a rock on the backstop. Seen it plenty of times. Their targets were just a foot or two from the backstop, dramatically increasing the odds of this.

I don't think we need to discuss Yeager's past to evaluate the reasonableness of TR's practices and explanations in this case. The events speak for themselves. If this thread turns into a simple "let's all hate on TR/Yeager" then it plays right into their hands.

redsox20

06-21-09, 10:53

I don't have much to say in regards to the photographer incident, but I do have something to say about this April 2005 incident. What AAR are we talking about? The one James wrote or the company?

I have never trained with TR, but bumped into James at the Embassy pool once way back in 2005 I think.

Since this event happen over four years ago, I have read on the internet many armchair quarterbacks talking about what he did wrong and costing people their lives. I was not on this mission, but once sat in on a detailed debrief by Mark Collen, the minimi gunner seen in the video. I don't recall him saying anything negative about James, other than the fact that he stalled the car and that James might not have been able to see the shooter from his location.

Unless you have been on the receiving end of a PKM, you don't have a clue what it is like. I don't care how many stress fire push ups and laps you ran in your "training course", it don't even approach what happens when Russian hardware is raining down on your ass. I have been in three major contacts involving PKM fire directed at my dog tags. I was wounded once. Not a big deal and I am not a hero by a long shot. I just did my job.

Bottom line is that it sucks and that unless someone turns into a quivering bowl of jello and refuses to act, I have no problems with someone's actions if they attempt to adhere to the basic drills and SOPs. Granted, James may have moved away from the vehicle to a position that he could not see and engage the enemy. At least he did something. Was it the right thing to do? Maybe not, but at least he acted.

Other people on the team may have a different story. I respect that.

Route Irish was a shit storm during this time. The week prior to this incident, my vehicle was blown up by a VBIED about a mile from this attack. Once again, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I was still licking my wounds from that one when James' team was hit, AND my company was hit again in the same week, resulting in our first fatality. OK, James did shoot up a vehicle and kill a driver that was approaching their location after the incident. The driver didn't turn out to be a threat, just an ignorant Iraqi who died. In those days, you had to act quickly. At least he was skilled enough to be able to stop the driver.

Getting back to the main incident, I seem to remember that the majority of the injuries to those in James' vehicle were the result in the initial volley of fire. James admits he screwed the pooch, but when PKM rounds are going through your soft skin vehicle, you tend to forget things. The real heroes are those who can rise above the situation. James was not a hero, nor was he a villain.

My point is that these types of incidents really suck and people make mistakes. It chaps my ass to read about people trying to critique someone's actions based on videos and AARs, yet they have never been in someone's sight picture other than an airsoft pistol.

It was never my intention in appearing like a super douche, and I apologize if that's how it seems.

The AAR seems to be from the company but you covered the gist of it.

John_Wayne777

06-21-09, 11:00

The 180 thing is a red herring. People who are familiar with this type of training are not saying the photographer was unsafe because of a 180 rule. But that is what TR is grasping at because -- like plenty of other instructors -- they insist that you cannot train in a strictly 180-degree environment. By trying to shift the discussion to "180 vs 360" and away from "is it smart to put a guy right between two close targets with apparently unconfident and inadequately prepared/trained shooters firing in his immediate direction?" they're essentially dodging the real issue.

The mere presence of a human being somewhere on the half of the planet you are facing towards does not automatically make something unsafe. I've been there plenty of times (see some of my photos earlier in this thread).

Precisely. TR's discussion of the 180 rule is a complete distraction from the real issue. All of us can see that in the real world the 180 rule does not exist. You will have 360 degree threat environment liberally populated by innocents, whether you are a Marine in Fallujah, a cop on the beat, or an ordinary joe at the ATM.

The question becomes, then, when is it appropriate to conduct "downrange" training and what procedures should be observed to minimize risk?

What we see in the TR videos is a mindset that bullets flying right beside somebody is no big deal because, after all, we drive inches from other cars so what's the big deal? That, ladies and gentlemen, is messed up. Folks, this whole thing is about safety. Safety procedures are layered, and for a good reason. Because we are human we are ALL capable of having a momentary lapse of judgment or attention. All of us have had them. Anyone who says they haven't is lying. By layering safety procedures we allow for these momentary lapses of judgment and/or attention without tragedy.

When you start stripping away these layers in the name of "realism" or whatever you wish to label it, the risks of something bad happening skyrocket. When you treat the removal of these layers of safety as no big deal, or even a super-awesome thing that is the sign of a "warrior", you are begging for a disaster.

When you strip away layers of safety you are left with the razor's edge, and that is not a happy, comfortable, cool place to be. Pushing the idea that it is a happy, comfortable place is guaranteeing disaster at some point. As human beings we are always in danger of becoming too comfortable with things that we shouldn't be. The closer your comfort zone comes to that bleeding edge the higher the chances are of something truly terrible taking place.

People are quick to decry a number of "range rules", but the simple fact is that they do prevent disaster. If something as inherently risky as going downrange with live fire is to be done, it absolutely MUST be done with the proper controls and precautions in place. With those controls and precautions it is STILL EXTREMELY RISKY. Without them...

Surf

06-21-09, 13:35

I have yet to comment on this topic here. I have commented on it, in 3 other forums however. I will say that I have read the AAR's by the company and by JY. Also seen the all of the vids. I will say that I have not and will not comment on the ERSM incident as I was not there.

I will say that my unit is a full time, dedicated, SWAT unit, for a major metro PD. Not to compare us to military etc, but as Iraq Ninja pointed out, we also do quite a bit of 360 work, be it shoot house, breaking contact, or shot priority stuff, with forward movement, leap frogging in hallways etc...However we do have strict adherence to training safety standards and standoffs, etc.. We do firearms training 1-2 days a week minimum, but we will not put an instructor inside a room of a shoothouse, while making entries. I will also say that I have been involved in training with sniper initiated entries, or man down range sniper drills, that are far far less risky than what is seen in the video's. Some of the same training rational was given, that JY gives. IMO, it is BS, from the shooters standpoint, and our unit has not adopted such training techniques. Granted these are highly trained counter snipers, but it is not necessary to achieve the desired results. Much less count on people shown in the JY training video. I barely feel comfortable with the way some of them looked holding a pistol.

The bottom line, is I agree with the consensus that this was an unnecessary risk, who's risk far outweighed any perceived benefit. There are other methods of training to achieve what JY claims to be the benefits of the man down range idea. I have not read the entire thread but, I also have to echo what Todd, and JW mention in the last couple of pages, and especially what Rob mentions, in regards to who the shooters were and what the drill was. They were not highly trained professionals. Even if they were high speed Ninja types, I would still not condone that potential risk, for picture taking or any perceived training benefit.

KellyTTE

06-21-09, 16:54

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/mfingar/Misc/Assorted-Green-Badasses.jpg

Robb Jensen

06-21-09, 16:56

That's awesome! :D

CryingWolf

06-21-09, 18:48

hahahaha :D

d90king

06-21-09, 19:13

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/mfingar/Misc/Assorted-Green-Badasses.jpg

Thats PRICELESS!

K.L. Davis

06-21-09, 19:56

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/mfingar/Misc/Assorted-Green-Badasses.jpg

Holy crap... I think you just forever added to our vernacular; FNG, JAFO, FOBBIT, REMF and the newest: GWC (Guy With Camera).

"So... who's the guy in the 'Shoot Me' vest?"

"Dude, that really is a Gee-Dubbaya-Cee"

Mac5.56

06-21-09, 20:01

Someone PM'd me when I asked about this incident and described something similar.
But Iraq Ninja, I want to thank you for saying this publicly. I feel it needed to be said! I'm a NOOB, and have no intention of ever using TR, nor do I know any of them.

I don't have much to say in regards to the photographer incident, but I do have something to say about this April 2005 incident. What AAR are we talking about? The one James wrote or the company?

I have never trained with TR, but bumped into James at the Embassy pool once way back in 2005 I think.

Since this event happen over four years ago, I have read on the internet many armchair quarterbacks talking about what he did wrong and costing people their lives. I was not on this mission, but once sat in on a detailed debrief by Mark Collen, the minimi gunner seen in the video. I don't recall him saying anything negative about James, other than the fact that he stalled the car and that James might not have been able to see the shooter from his location.

Unless you have been on the receiving end of a PKM, you don't have a clue what it is like. I don't care how many stress fire push ups and laps you ran in your "training course", it don't even approach what happens when Russian hardware is raining down on your ass. I have been in three major contacts involving PKM fire directed at my dog tags. I was wounded once. Not a big deal and I am not a hero by a long shot. I just did my job.

Bottom line is that it sucks and that unless someone turns into a quivering bowl of jello and refuses to act, I have no problems with someone's actions if they attempt to adhere to the basic drills and SOPs. Granted, James may have moved away from the vehicle to a position that he could not see and engage the enemy. At least he did something. Was it the right thing to do? Maybe not, but at least he acted.

Other people on the team may have a different story. I respect that.

Route Irish was a shit storm during this time. The week prior to this incident, my vehicle was blown up by a VBIED about a mile from this attack. Once again, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I was still licking my wounds from that one when James' team was hit, AND my company was hit again in the same week, resulting in our first fatality. OK, James did shoot up a vehicle and kill a driver that was approaching their location after the incident. The driver didn't turn out to be a threat, just an ignorant Iraqi who died. In those days, you had to act quickly. At least he was skilled enough to be able to stop the driver.

Getting back to the main incident, I seem to remember that the majority of the injuries to those in James' vehicle were the result in the initial volley of fire. James admits he screwed the pooch, but when PKM rounds are going through your soft skin vehicle, you tend to forget things. The real heroes are those who can rise above the situation. James was not a hero, nor was he a villain.

My point is that these types of incidents really suck and people make mistakes. It chaps my ass to read about people trying to critique someone's actions based on videos and AARs, yet they have never been in someone's sight picture other than an airsoft pistol.

JLM

06-21-09, 20:01

What we see in the TR videos is a mindset that bullets flying right beside somebody is no big deal because, after all, we drive inches from other cars so what's the big deal? That, ladies and gentlemen, is messed up.

It takes the straw man argument to a level heretofore unseen, at least by me.

Todd, is that a Pledge Pin...on your UUUUNIFORM?!!! :cool:

CarlosDJackal

06-21-09, 21:29

...For instance, yesterday we were at the range and working on immediate action drills for breaking contact. The 180 rule was broken all the time as we bounded people to the rear. But, we never think of these drills as confidence training per se. All of us are former military...

So are you sying that those TR students on that first video are as well-traind as you and your buddies? If that's true, I think you owe it to your Principal to inform them of this. :eek:

Just because someone does a static-line jump after a few hours' worth of training at any USPA facility it doesn't mean they can do a Mass Tactical night jump with combat equipment, does it?

Comparing the type of training a PSD or Military Unit in a war zone SHOULD DO to what a bunch of civilian owners who had just enough cash to purchase a handgun, magazines, ammo, and pay a so-called "Instructor" $150/day is like comparing a SEAL to a recreational SCUBA diver.

I regularly shoot Carbine and Pistol drills with a bunch of guys almost weekly. While I trust the core group enough to be willing to go into shoot houses with them (if we had access to one); it doesn't mean we should try it. Why? Because we really do not have the need to do so. It's not like we are not some Tactical Team who MUST be able to perform this task on demand. While it would be fun (and I've done it); but is it really worth the risk?

I ask again, was it really necessary for that so-called "Instructor" to do what he did in order to obtain some "action pictures"? I don't think so, IMHO.