View Full Version : Inadvertent Black Eye for Air Force
Dan Goodwin
06-15-09, 14:13
Was just watching Fox News and saw a Live Desk segment showing 615th Wing doing practice vehicle stops in the desert somewhere.
Every airman in the security element was equipped with an AR variant with carryhandle removed from flattop _ no BUIS or optic.
Inspirational, I tell you.
Littlelebowski
06-15-09, 14:32
A lot of airmen on LightFighter bemoan the fact that the Air Force is afraid of weapons as an institution.
I think there is a link here between those guys and this one from a recent thread... :confused:
RM: where is your sights?
Dummy: what sights ? this is the way i took it out of the box!!
RM: that model rifle requires iron sights or a scope.
Dummy: what do you mean "iron sights" ?
RM, after showing him iron sights: they look like this.
Dummy: well there weren't any in the box, so i guess i don't need them.
Was just watching Fox News and saw a Live Desk segment showing 615th Wing doing practice vehicle stops in the desert somewhere.
Every airman in the security element was equipped with an AR variant with carryhandle removed from flattop _ no BUIS or optic.
Inspirational, I tell you.
I think there is a link here between those guys and this one from a recent thread... :confused:
Oh man, wow and WOW! :rolleyes:
I am glad that I am not the only one who saw that. I was like WTF, over?
Was just watching Fox News and saw a Live Desk segment showing 615th Wing doing practice vehicle stops in the desert somewhere.
Every airman in the security element was equipped with an AR variant with carryhandle removed from flattop _ no BUIS or optic.
Inspirational, I tell you.
The sad part is that they were supposed to be a high speed unit that forward deploys to set up and establish air fields.
A lot of airmen on LightFighter bemoan the fact that the Air Force is afraid of weapons as an institution.
Thomas M-4
06-15-09, 15:53
Butty in the Marine corp was telling me last time he did training maneuvers he saw guys with there carry handle mounted one side and the VFG mounted on the opposite side on there A-4's :confused:
That is actually somewhat common here as well. The reason being that many Marines are issued ACOG's and their M16A4's are equipped with carry handles. So they mount the carry handle forward on their rails in the event that the ACOG is damaged. ;)
In addition an associate of mine who is on a contract doing refurbs on Army weapons has told me that they are removing all carrying handles on M4's and they are being replaced with a rear BUIS instead. Sadly they are demilling all the carry handles rather than selling them to recoup money. Many of them are like new.
Butty in the Marine corp was telling me last time he did training maneuvers he saw guys with there carry handle mounted one side and the VFG mounted on the opposite side on there A-4's :confused:
Littlelebowski
06-15-09, 17:30
video link (http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/m/22592380/air-force-s-911.htm#q=air+force)
I saw that but thought I was mistaken. Don't think that is indicative of all Air Force members...there are some career fields who know what they are doing (ex. Combat Control, Pararescue, TACP). ;)
Was just watching Fox News and saw a Live Desk segment showing 615th Wing doing practice vehicle stops in the desert somewhere.
Every airman in the security element was equipped with an AR variant with carryhandle removed from flattop _ no BUIS or optic.
Inspirational, I tell you.
video link (http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/m/22592380/air-force-s-911.htm#q=air+force)
"...and the training is rough."
shooting without sights would, i think, classify as "rough"
Littlelebowski
06-15-09, 17:36
I saw that but thought I was mistaken. Don't think that is indicative of all Air Force members...there are some career fields who know what they are doing (ex. Combat Control, Pararescue, TACP). ;)
This forum isn't that stupid or childish.
This forum isn't that stupid or childish.
True.
Probably more about resources (optics) being utilized in areas NOT in the California desert. Scopes...No shooty, no needy.
Probably more about resources (optics) being utilized in areas NOT in the California desert. Scopes...No shooty, no needy.
i'm sure that's all it is. they probably got issued new weapons right before they went out on this FTX, and didnt get carry handles or 68's in time to go. i'm sure they dont generally train with no sights
but it's fun to rip on airforce guys anyway
Damn, I'm going to have fun tomorrow. 2 of my students are from the 615th CRW.
Before anyone asks, no I do not teach them ANYTHING you saw in the video. I teach a principles of instruction course, nothing firearms related. So don't blame me for any of that crap, I'm just as embarassed as anyone else.:(
. Sadly they are demilling all the carry handles rather than selling them to recoup money. Many of them are like new.
i don't get this :confused::confused: They mill in the pic. rail??
What would the cost diff really be from selling and replacing comparied to the milling work??
i don't get this :confused::confused: They mill in the pic. rail??
What would the cost diff really be from selling and replacing comparied to the milling work??
He means they are destroying and throwing away the detachable carry handles rather than sell them.
Ok, I am confused. :confused:
i don't get this :confused::confused: They mill in the pic. rail??
What would the cost diff really be from selling and replacing comparied to the milling work??
i don't get this :confused::confused: They mill in the pic. rail??
What would the cost diff really be from selling and replacing comparied to the milling work??
Demilling = demilitarizing aka destroying... NOT milling work on a milling machine.
They carry handles are removeable from the flat top uppers. Once removed, they are destroyed (demilled) rather than being sold off. The upper already has a pic rail on it.
Well, no wonder I'm confused...why in the hell wouldn't they sell them??
I guess I shouldn't be surprised anything that involves the govt but this seems wasteful in the worst of ways. Thanks for the clarification.
Still at a loss....
Sheeple who are scared of the evil black guns wouldn't know the difference, only those of us that are vets or regular shooters even noticed.
Littlelebowski
06-15-09, 18:20
Sheeple who are scared of the evil black guns wouldn't know the difference, only those of us that are vets or regular shooters even noticed.
Or anybody who's ever grown up around guns period.
They probably shoot better without all that "stuff" getting in their line of sight. :eek:
A the Air Force is afraid of weapons as an institution.
You have no idea how true this really is! I had my first requal this year and I wanted to pull out what hair I didnt shave off. I got "smacked for not ejecting a mag after a 3rnd string, then when I had a double feed I performed remedial action and got a public ass chewing because it was a saftey issue. Seems that the bbl needs to be checked with a cleaning rod to make sure there are no obstructions :rolleyes:. Then when it came to the night shoot with nvgs and peq 4's, I put all my rounds in the head of the target (all you need to do is hit it) and was threatened with having to requal.
The whole process was agonizingly slow and it took about 10 hours to do shotgun pistol and rifle quals.
EDIT: The qual was for a Security Forces unit.
-DM-
You have no idea how true this really is! I had my first requal this year and I wanted to pull out what hair I didnt shave off. I got "smacked for not ejecting a mag after a 3rnd string, then when I had a double feed I performed remedial action and got a public ass chewing because it was a saftey issue. Seems that the bbl needs to be checked with a cleaning rod to make sure there are no obstructions :rolleyes:. Then when it came to the night shoot with nvgs and peq 4's, I put all my rounds in the head of the target (all you need to do is hit it) and was threatened with having to requal.
The whole process was agonizingly slow and it took about 10 hours to do shotgun pistol and rifle quals.
EDIT: The qual was for a Security Forces unit.
-DM-
That's just sad. I thought Army range-isms were bad, but that's got us beat.
Dan Goodwin
06-15-09, 21:09
Ripping on stupid policies put in place by pantywaist politicians _ not the AF. This country would be a safer place if all our servicemen were actually trained how to fight and armed at all times (they weren't partying).
I'm an AF veteran (Cold War, ECM/ELING SR-71 & U2) but I could shoot when I got there.
They wanted us to keep our personal weapons locked up at the AP armory. I did that for the first month, then told them I was keeping them at a buddy's apartment off base. They were really in my locker in my barracks room.
When I saw that film clip I flashed back to those Walker Texas Ranger Episodes where the bad guys went after victims and Walker with Ruger 77s with no sights or optics at all. Scary...
Now I'm rethinking. Maybe it's a clever Psyops ploy to make our enemies think our warfighters are hitting them in the head in the dark using the front sights only...
CarlosDJackal
06-15-09, 21:58
...What would the cost diff really be from selling and replacing comparied to the milling work??
It's no a matter of cost. It's a matter of politics. They completely demill all sorts of weapons that are no longer in use rather than selling off non-registered parts for the same reason.
Not only does this create jobs, it negates the possibility that any of the parts (i.e.: the removable carrying handle) can be used in a rifle that is used in a crime. Our tax money at work!! :rolleyes:
I hope the media keeps making us look bad in our weapons training program. Maybe leadership will get fed up (just like the PT program we use to have) and send us through proper training.
Thomas M-4
06-15-09, 22:09
I hope the media keeps making us look bad in our weapons training program. Maybe leadership will get fed up (just like the PT program we use to have) and send us through proper training.
I heard that the bicycles have been taken away.:p
I heard that the bicycles have been taken away.:p
Actually no. People on waiver that can't complete the regular test have to use the bicycle.
ThirdWatcher
06-15-09, 23:47
This country would be a safer place if all our servicemen were actually trained how to fight and armed at all times (they weren't partying).
You mean like the Marines? I'm an Army veteran who thought General Gray got it right.
That is actually somewhat common here as well. The reason being that many Marines are issued ACOG's and their M16A4's are equipped with carry handles. So they mount the carry handle forward on their rails in the event that the ACOG is damaged. ;)
Tell me about it. It's ridiculous how common that is, though a lot of the 03XXs tend to only do it for armory storage, thank Crom. For the rest, whenever we kick a huge "WTF?" over this during instruction, citing wasted rail space, weight forward, and the likelihood that the thing will just get damaged, some of them look at us like we have great, big wangs growing out of the middle of our foreheads.
As much as I applaud the Marines for issuing a good optic I don't understand why they don't also provide a good solid BUIS as well. That would solve the problem. They don't need to destroy the carry handles they could simply be marked and put away until needed.
Tell me about it. It's ridiculous how common that is, though a lot of the 03XXs tend to only do it for armory storage, thank Crom. For the rest, whenever we kick a huge "WTF?" over this during instruction, citing wasted rail space, weight forward, and the likelihood that the thing will just get damaged, some of them look at us like we have great, big wangs growing out of the middle of our foreheads.
Was just watching Fox News and saw a Live Desk segment showing 615th Wing doing practice vehicle stops in the desert somewhere.
Every airman in the security element was equipped with an AR variant with carryhandle removed from flattop _ no BUIS or optic.
Inspirational, I tell you.
Are you referring to the 615th Contingency Response Wing (CRW) from Travis AFB, CA? Can you post a link to the video you saw?
Are you referring to the 615th Contingency Response Wing (CRW) from Travis AFB, CA? Can you post a link to the video you saw?
The Dude posted a link on the first page, post #9 (https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=390184&postcount=9)
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-16-09, 11:12
FRONTSIGHT!!!
As much as I applaud the Marines for issuing a good optic I don't understand why they don't also provide a good solid BUIS as well. That would solve the problem. They don't need to destroy the carry handles they could simply be marked and put away until needed.
Well, then Corporate Marine Corps wouldn't get to spend our allotted $.07 of the DoD dollar on, oversized, cumbersome MTVs, the EFV, or even something actually worth the money, like re-structuring our KD ranges into meters to support our primary optic, particularly since we fight in meters, mils are directly mated to meters, our maps are in meters yadda yadda.
You're own suggestion makes entirely too much sense, and will not be tolerated.
I'd always found that I was my own best SupO/OrdO, and that's the message I push to the smarter Marines. Been using Troys for some time.
Hell, this whole NATION would be better off if all adults were always armed wether .mil or not
It's not limited to the cops or other support AFSC's. What ever the reason you will see PJ/CCT/TACP doing the same stuff. Inert weapons (blue guns) get used a lot also.
I would guess that at different stages during the training you need not to be worried about a certain piece of equipment but incorporate it at a latter stage. i.e; learn the take down/search and then add your weapons training in at a different stage. That is the problem with vid clips and pics; you only get part of the story.
sorry for the big pic...
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/060214-F-8769P-176.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/RyanWoods/military%20photos/041215-F-2673Z-001.jpg
.
Who is that supposed to be in the pics?
BTW...use Irfan View (http://www.irfanview.com/) to resize those pics. ;)
Who is that supposed to be in the pics?
BTW...use Irfan View (http://www.irfanview.com/) to resize those pics. ;)
AF CCT and PJ
AMMOTECH has it right...those are plastic training weapons. Pause the first picture of the guy in profile with the weapon. It's either plastic or has a bent barrel!
Also when the female looks over the hood, you can see the FSB does not have a post, it's solid.
Heh, cultural differences. I literally winced when I looked at the guys carrying the redguns.
Being redgunned / bluegunned / rubber duckied, in other circles, is a step immediately prior to being bounced out on your ass.
More of the same....:rolleyes:
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/060530-F-5167G-027.jpg
Moving up a notch to sim-munitions...
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/070713-F-8769P-190.JPG
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/070713-F-8769P-334.JPG
.
More of the same....:rolleyes:
Nice pics. The first looks like a pipeline training jump and the other two look like a PJ CSAREX...pic 2 showing the CCP and pic 3 is pretty obvious.
It seems like you are trying to rag on me about something from my first post in this thread. In no way am I trying to be antagonistic. Notice I said ex. Combat Control, Pararescue, TACP...that wasn't meant to be all inclusive and never meant to be understood that they never used rubber weapons, blue bolts/frang in training. It's a good tool when working with trainees. I just know that during my career my use of rubber nugs was limited to water training jumps and wasn't widely used once Controllers or PJs got to the teams...not never used.
I think you were spot on with the statement below...
I would guess that at different stages during the training you need not to be worried about a certain piece of equipment but incorporate it at a latter stage. i.e; learn the take down/search and then add your weapons training in at a different stage.
I was just surprised to see that knowing they were going to be on TV or doing any "dog and pony show" that they didn't have fully outfitted weapons.
It seems like you are trying to rag on me about something from my first post in this thread.
Negative. I was just pointing out that it is branch wide . "Safety" is a key word when you see training pics like that.
Having spent 20yrs in the AF I'll be the first to say that we have some jacked up ways of doing business but I'll also jump in and defend that way of life when I have to.
.
Im kinda glad I passed on the AF if this is normal...:(
exkc135driver
06-16-09, 22:09
Im kinda glad I passed on the AF if this is normal...:(
The Air Force is a big outfit. I haven’t a clue what it’s like now, but back in the day we used to talk about how SAC wasn’t the “real Air Force.” Truth be told, there probably isn’t a “real Air Force,” and I daresay that every airman thinks that his MAJCOM is different from the ”real Air Force.” I certainly don’t think that what has been discussed so far in this thread is representative of the Air Force as a whole.
It should come as little surprise that the Air Force isn’t about small arms. I’m not sure that I would go so far as to say that the Air Force doesn’t “understand” small arms, but I’m not sure that I would disagree with that statement either. That just isn’t what the Air Force is about.
In the early 1980's I was in the USAR 344th MPCo. Worcester/New Haven for a very short time.
We used to go on FTX's without bolts or magazines for our A1's. Lt. would check to make sure nobody had a bolt. Charging handle would rattle around a bit in the upper as you moved about.
I assume this was to keep us from shooting blanks into the air at 03:00 and waking everybody up.
Having spent 20yrs in the AF I'll be the first to say that we have some jacked up ways of doing business but I'll also jump in and defend that way of life when I have to.
After my 20 years as an AF Combat Controller, I tend to feel the same way.
I love the AF. Eight years in and I wouldn't trade it for nothing (even though I was offered a pilot slot in the Army). Even though most of us aren't on the front lines, we do a lot to make sure the jets get in the air and drop bombs. That's the main reason I think the Air Force will not send us to get firearms training since we are not in the front lines. I would really love to see the AF change and gives us proper firearms training but right now, I don't see that happening.
I love the AF. Eight years in and I wouldn't trade it for nothing (even though I was offered a pilot slot in the Army). Even though most of us aren't on the front lines, we do a lot to make sure the jets get in the air and drop bombs. That's the main reason I think the Air Force will not send us to get firearms training since we are not in the front lines. I would really love to see the AF change and gives us proper firearms training but right now, I don't see that happening.
I dont get that mentality, do they rally think a base is above being attacked? They are relying on their Security Forces etc to secure a base, if they arent properly trained in firearms how can they accomplish that?
Saginaw79,
If you aren't or weren't in the AF you will never get it. Best I can tell you is its the AF is not like any other branch just as they are unique unto themselves. This should come as no surprise but if you're the type who likes ground combat then the Air Force is probably not the place for you. :cool:
Im not .mil, but had seriously considered the AF Security Forces as a career after HS and AFJROTC
Im not expecting them to think like Marines, just use common sense in what their Security guys are expected to do. I guess its more about presence and looking pretty than actually having much capability to do what they are supposed to, it just sadens me but Ill never get it I guess
Im not .mil, but had seriously considered the AF Security Forces as a career after HS and AFJROTC
Im not expecting them to think like Marines, just use common sense in what their Security guys are expected to do. I guess its more about presence and looking pretty than actually having much capability to do what they are supposed to, it just sadens me but Ill never get it I guess
I see...now I know where you're coming from.
Thanks
Well, as a current member of the Air Force and Security Forces, I think that there is a gap in some of the training that we recieve. Especially in Security Forces, we are working off of tactics that were originally designed and made exclusively for jungle warfare. Anyone in SF will tell you that it is frustrating. But, with all the stupid training we are subjected to, we DO get just as much that is worth while. Many of us have trained with, deployed with, and supported the Army and Marines. While I do understand not all of us are on the "frontlines" there are a fair amount of us that are trained just as well, if not in some aspects, better than the other branches. Dont get me wrong, I give full credit to the Army and the Marines for what they are subjected to, but for many of us SF troops, we are gone for nearly as long, and twice as often. I've been at my current base for almost 3 years now, and I think I have only actually been on station for maybe 1 combined year of the 3. As for the training, many of us find the time to train on our own, or as a team. The AF can force feed us the training we "have to have" all they want, but the tactics we use are the tactics that best suit the job. I have personally taken it upon myself to go through many of the courses that the Air Force finds desirable, but are too cheap to send everyone through (ie. CPEC, ADMC, Pre-Ranger, Air Assault). Sometimes it's nice to have a good working relationship with the army.
I dont get that mentality, do they rally think a base is above being attacked? They are relying on their Security Forces etc to secure a base, if they arent properly trained in firearms how can they accomplish that?
The SF men & women are spread really thin and I don't know if they can maintain base security but they will do everything they can I'm sure. However, I think they would be ordered to protect important and classified assets over the people (in my opinion). That is one of the reasons, I pursue my own firearms training and I keep my own firearms at my home to protect my family.
BTW, I'm just a jet engine mechanic and this is only my opinion.
exkc135driver
06-18-09, 09:51
BTW, I'm just a jet engine mechanic and this is only my opinion.
There is no such thing as "just" a jet engine mechanic ... without you guys, the whole operation would quickly cease functioning.
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