View Full Version : Thought I Was Prepared; Not Now!
Just read One Second After and now consider myself unprepared. What gets me is that the military takes the EMP threat seriously and there have even been Congressional hearings! But, the media doesn't even give it air time. I feel this may be b/c a lot of people would be going "Oh S***!" and clamoring for the gov. to do something.
So, now I am looking into getting a nice old truck without any computers, say a 1960 F-100. Next, I need a radio with vacuum tubes. Or, building a Faraday cage doesn't seem to hard. But if it was even a little wrong, you're up sh** creek.
Basically it is time to rethink my SHTF plan b/c if the sh** is an EMP, that nice truck, radio, generator, etc., is not going to work. I'd rather put my coin into items that will function in any SHTF scenario, not just what would work in most.
The scenes in the book present many dilemnas most people don't even consider. You may have a nice garden, plenty of food and H20, and 5K rounds of 5.56 but when a hungry, armed mob of 1500 criminals starts ravaging the countryside, you are SOL.
Going back to the drawing board.
Thomas M-4
06-15-09, 16:10
It seems like I remember reading some where that you can ground your vehicle by using a chain or a cable touching the ground. I have no Idea if that would work never been in a EMP blast but it does sound possible. Maybe somebody else as a better Idea for that.
As far as the 1500 armed mob criminals A 240 GPMG and or a M-2 HMG with spare barrels and 4k-6k rounds will probably make them change there minds.:D
Grounding that way, unfortunately, won't work. M2-HB, I like the way you think! Too bad they're so expensive, not to mention the ammo prices. Better to be able to get the f*** out of dodge. The prob. talked about in the book would be the thousands and thousands of cars stopped on the road. Many places would be impassable. The book painted a bleak picture, but one could prepare to deal with it. I just have prepared without thinking about an EMP.
Now if you can get me the 240 or the M2, let me know.:p
I think I'll be heading over to Luke AFB if the SHTF.
It seems like I remember reading some where that you can ground your vehicle by using a chain or a cable touching the ground. I have no Idea if that would work never been in a EMP blast but it does sound possible. Maybe somebody else as a better Idea for that.
As far as the 1500 armed mob criminals A 240 GPMG and or a M-2 HMG with spare barrels and 4k-6k rounds will probably make them change there minds.:D
Mr.Goodtimes
06-15-09, 19:32
will an eotech or aimpoint survive an EMP blast or would that render the site useless?
also, would it matter if the site was on or off? like if it was turned off when the blast hit, would it still work?
would vehicles work if they were turned off when an EMP device went off?
i was under the assumption that EMP will only disrupt electronics for a short period and then theyll start working again?
An EMP will destroy the circuitry of any device that incorporates them regardless of whether they are on or off. The guy that wrote One Second After is a college professor, had great input from insiders familiar with the technological impacts(including military and academic, hell, a Navy officer wrote a forward), and was familiar with the military assessments. He also had access to the Congressional transcripts(anybody can get) of the committee hearings. To be honest, he painted a very accurate and informationally sound and verifiable picture. Really made me scared if this situation were to occur. Even more scary is the fact that his sources are readily verifiable and his info. is "common knowledge."
Whenever you see a military whatever referred to as hardened, the description will usually be incorporating EMP "hardiness" as a criteria.
However, an old car/truck/radio/engine that does not have circuitry will not be affected. For example, vacuum tube radios, old trucks, old mopeds, old VW's, steam engine, old engine, etc. will not be affected. Problem is, almost everything today has some sort of internal circuitry.
What made the book even more scary are the scenarios he brought up, which are totally logical and make sense. These scenarios make the vast majority of people that are "prepared" totally unprepared and extremely vulnerable. I never considered a mob traveling aroung looting, pillaging, raping, and killing simply because they could. How the f*** can I alone, or even several hundred well-prepared people, deal with a threat that could very well contain ex-mil, ex-LE in a mobile mob?
How could I bug out(with family), or alone, along roads, interstates, and backroads roamed by criminal groups and desperate people with military "advisors?" We all know the military and LE have a small percentage of bad apples. If they organized..... Do not misunderstand me, our mil and LE are honorable, good people. But all it takes are just a couple to provide advice on tactics.
kaiservontexas
06-16-09, 00:34
One thing about the golden hoard nobody ever mentions is without potable water, transportation, and decent food they will start dropping off in numbers quickly due to disease and dehydration. It is not like gangbangers are ready for SHTF. Walking 60 miles in 100 degree Texas heat with no potable water is gonna fry you fast. Then there is the fact that they will kill their own and also have many that become causalities from fighting. Being wounded is also going to suck with no doctors around to patch things up in surgery with courses of antibiotics and other medications. Lastly they will be concerned with their own little area of the city before attempting to become mobile, which at that time supplies will have dwindled in cities since they usually only have about 3 days worth of stuff to restock their shelves.
I am by no means saying their will not be a golden hoard. I just think fictional accounts of mega armies roaming into the country side is a bit off. It is like they do not take into account that water born bugs will kill off X, Y amount is going to become severely ill, A amount is going to get outright killed by people defending themselves, B amount by their own buddies, C amount by hunger, D amount by other diseases, F amount by starvation, and Z amount by exposure.
I bought a human sized hamster ball. Should be good.
Seriously though if you consider planning for a SHTF you should consider a lack of all electronics, infrastructure, and re-supply as a part of the equation. Coupled of course with absolute chaos. Why would you ever consider relying on an electronic device as safe or reliable?
P.S. My hamster ball has carbon filters, a single point sling attachment for my secondary weapon, and several pieces of webbing for my 30 plus loaded magazines. :)
Just read One Second After and now consider myself unprepared.
I've read the book, too. I wouldn't recommend placing overmuch stock in a work of fiction, written in a "worst case scenario" fashion, that promotes the author's personal agenda/fears/opinions. And that's exactly what it was - a fluff piece about EMP.
Umm... I may need some instruction on the subject, but aren't EMP devices generally Thermonuclear devices? I realize there are some Non Nuclear EMP devices, but wouldn't the most likely form of EMP come from an enemy lacking the sophistication of NNEMP's? That being the case, I'd be far more concerned with the bright flash of light and the "surface of the sun" temperature and shockwave that followed it.
Planning for an EMP is like planning for an alien invasion, in my opinion. Some things just don't have a viable solution for the average, or even the above average person. Prepare for what you can (feasibly), and pray it's enough.
Now, feasibility has a lot to do with preparation. I don't know about many of you, but all the preparations in the world are find and dandy, but affording them is another problem all together. Not to mention, that if a senario like described above happens, most of that preparation involves a person being where they made those preparations. So, that eliminates going to work, or town, or anywhere for fear of not being in your shelter if something happens.
I'll just prepare for what I can and live my life without being overly concerned with EMP.
I'll just prepare for what I can and live my life without being overly concerned with EMP.
Exactly, but I would change EMP to pretty much everything when it comes to being "overly concerned", and I am honestly obsessed with being prepared and surviving.
Here's an example I like to use to friends and people when I explain Bear safety to them prior to hiking in a high risk area:
My entire life I had been camping and hiking in Grizzly country prior to leaving the Rocky Mountains. My first trip into Grizzly country was at 6 months old. I have logged more hours in this high risk natural environment then anyone I have met since leaving the Rocky States. In this time I have seen 1 yes 1 Grizzly bear. It was at about 1000 yards on a hill on the other side of a large river.
Does this mean I am careless about Bear safety? Absolutely not, in fact I am the opposite. But I don't walk around in the forest terrified of the big bad Bear! I just accept it as a risk and plan accordingly. Same goes for all other safety/preparedness issues.
kaiservontexas
06-16-09, 17:51
Umm... I may need some instruction on the subject, but aren't EMP devices generally Thermonuclear devices? I realize there are some Non Nuclear EMP devices, but wouldn't the most likely form of EMP come from an enemy lacking the sophistication of NNEMP's? That being the case, I'd be far more concerned with the bright flash of light and the "surface of the sun" temperature and shockwave that followed it.
Thermonuclear bombs will generate an EMP that is widespread and effect N. America if detonated at the right altitude. The altitude is in the ionsphere of our atmosphere, which means a flash will most likely not be a problem and there will be no thermal pulse hence no heat of shockwave. In fact you will not even hear it explode.
Thermonuclear bombs will generate an EMP that is widespread and effect N. America if detonated at the right altitude. The altitude is in the ionsphere of our atmosphere, which means a flash will most likely not be a problem and there will be no thermal pulse hence no heat of shockwave. In fact you will not even hear it explode.
I should have been more specific when I said...
but wouldn't the most likely form of EMP come from an enemy lacking the sophistication of NNEMP's?
... getting at the likelyhood that a nuke attack won't come from the air, but from the back of some truck. Hopefully neither situation comes to fruition, but I think a "suitcase nuke" is far more likely than a missile
Outlander Systems
06-16-09, 19:15
Planning for an EMP is like planning for an alien invasion, in my opinion. Some things just don't have a viable solution for the average, or even the above average person. Prepare for what you can (feasibly), and pray it's enough.
How's this for some tactics:
An Introduction to Planetary Defense: A Study of Modern Warfare Applied to Extra-Terrestrial Invasion (http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Planetary-Defense-Extra-Terrestrial-Invasion/dp/1581124473)
kaiservontexas
06-16-09, 21:13
I should have been more specific when I said...
... getting at the likelyhood that a nuke attack won't come from the air, but from the back of some truck. Hopefully neither situation comes to fruition, but I think a "suitcase nuke" is far more likely than a missile
Ok, well it does not spread past the fireball in the usual detonation. ;)
The EMP scenario I have heard about is a non sophisticated enemy, say Iran or N. Korea, with low grade nukes and low grade rockets, but no ICBM capability. They build basically a V2 type rocket (Scuds maybe) with a nuke on top, have them in cargo ships, one each ship gets off the coasts of the US, launches rockets and detonates them high in the atmosphere, EMP reaches across most of CONUS if both the east and west coasts are used for the attack.
Nathan_Bell
06-17-09, 11:25
Three threats I have read of for EMP.
A regional attack by a ICBM-less group as mentioned above. If it popped over CA or NY coastal areas you do not get the scenario the book's author went with.
A national attack by ICBM armed forces that have megaton + level devices. Pop two at about 10-15 miles up and you will be getting closer to what the author outlined.
Heavy duty solar flare. Yup, they can hit the atmosphere hard enough to give you the same effect of the multi-MT ionsphere detonation, except this will take out everyone's infrastructure. This will make the author look like an optimist.
I guess I look at it this way. What are the chances several Islamofacist nut jobs will infect themselves with a genetically engineered virus or bacterium we have no vaccine or resistance to? Small. What are the chances a large asteroid will hit the earth? Small. What are the chances a large solar flare will cause massive infrastructure problems? Small. What are the chances of any large, disruptive event ocurring? Small. What are the chances of an EMP strike? Small.
However, preparation for an EMP event only calls for small changes in disaster preparation. To say you won't worry about it, your call. All it takes is having an older, non-electronically controlled vehicle and making several small, or large, Faraday cages. It's that simple. So why not do it? Why be prepared for only some scenarios and possibly be caught with your pants down.
The risks of an EMP strike by a small group or by a nation seeking our downfall(Iran, N. Korea, China, etc.) is well documented in the Congressional record and in military preparedness. The threat is just as real, probably more so, than many other disaster scenarios. The prep. for it is not that expensive. Why not take this scenario into consideration?
Wait until we get the automated meter systems for each power customer, all hooked up to a centralized system. It's intended to promote efficiency (you get billed on a time of use rate, so you will consume less when rates are higher), but it is the perfect weapon for the modern terrorist. Johnny Jihad can sit in his cave or cafe with wireless access, hack into the system, and play merry havoc with our power supply. It won't be as dramatic as an EMP, but it will be less risky, easier to achieve, and can cause quite a bit of damage.
Or they can just go back to the old standby of blowing up power facilities, which they were gathering targetting information on after 9/11.
In the event of an EMP solar or otherwise with the assumption that we live...
Do the following things still work?
1. Rifle -Check
2. Ammo -Check
3. Bicycle -Check
4. Horse -Check
5. Hand pumped water filter -Check
6. Matches -Check
7. Clothing -Check
8. Knife -Check
9. Wife -Check (ooops, don't tell her I said that!)
Unless many people you know who all live within close proximity and who also prepared the way needed to protect electronic equipment... anything you save will be pretty useless, kinda like one legged ass kicker. You might have a radio, so you'll be able to talk to who exactly? Just by reading this forum for a while, it's easy to see that the people here are spread from here to high water and back across the country. A 4 mile radio isn't going to be anything more than a paperweight. The infrastructure for most other electronic devices will be down, so that essentially makes them useless. Stretching it out longer, if there's no trucks moving fuel, your truck, old or not, won't be moving either, Mad Max notwithstanding.
Zhurdan,
I see your point but a simple Faraday cage can protect electronics. There will be some people with working electronics, mainly military and some emergency services, and I would like to be able to get in touch. A CB and hand-helds for person to person. Old field telephones might be a good idea. Might be useful. Might not. An old truck without electronics(vacuum tube radio will be unaffected), a tankful of gas, a trailer, and heading out before the situation really deteriorates, may enable me to get to the location of a military post or more likely, to family land way back in the hills.
I'm sure, in the early days of a bad situation, I can pay someone, or barter, to let me siphon out gas. Not fun, but can work. The key would be to bug out early before people really start getting crazy and doing things that endanger you and your family when out and about. An old(well maintained) truck pulling a trailer, extra gas, and various siphoning hoses/equipment(as well as other supplies) and I feel I can get to a safe place and ride it out or stay and live.
I have been curious, not really worried but my ADD kid mind runs amuck sometimes, whether or not my brand new LED type super duper flashlights will work if EMP'd since they all seem to be run by a chip, the Gladius would be an example.
If so, would storing them in a metal locker, tool box or ammo can shield them?
Like I said, not worried about it, just an academic wondering type question.
Faraday cage??
How about using a microwave oven to put your stuff in. If it keep stuff from getting out it won't get in either? Food for thought.:rolleyes:
The scenes in the book present many dilemnas most people don't even consider. You may have a nice garden, plenty of food and H20, and 5K rounds of 5.56 but when a hungry, armed mob of 1500 criminals starts ravaging the countryside, you are SOL.
Going back to the drawing board.
This is why claymore mines should be legal. :D
I was talking to my next door neihbor last night, his son works for some company that does R&D on drugs of various sorts. He told me that his son's company had a great increase in thier stock values this year.......The govt just purchased a multi milion dollar amount of ANTHRAX meds from them this year. They (the govt) are appearantly very concerned over that issue.
Is there anything we can do in the event of an ANTHRAX release?
For anthrax information, the book Germs by Judith Miller, Stephen Engelberg, and William Broad discusses the disease quite well. Doxycycline and ciprofloxacin work well in conjunction with the vaccine; however, the treatment must be started within 24hrs. of exposure. The book discusses the military's approach to handling an attack as related to treatment and research. Even with treatment, 10-20% will not make it. If the anthrax is weaponized, the % increases.
For anthrax information, the book Germs by Judith Miller, Stephen Engelberg, and William Broad discusses the disease quite well. Doxycycline and ciprofloxacin work well in conjunction with the vaccine; however, the treatment must be started within 24hrs. of exposure. The book discusses the military's approach to handling an attack as related to treatment and research. Even with treatment, 10-20% will not make it. If the anthrax is weaponized, the % increases.
Do ya guess that the Govt. will be making these things available and affordable to us regular Joes in the case of an Anthrax release, or are these drugs secured and going to be selectively used on only the elites of the country?
Outlander Systems
08-05-09, 18:34
I'm currently reading OSA, and I'm roughly at the part where they're initially visiting Asheville.
Am I alone in thinking that Trijicon's optics are the best for Ultra-Doom scenarios, such as an EMP?
As far as the contingency planning thereof, my thought of breakdown always involved no power/gasoline/batteries/etc.
I suppose, reliance on passive solar is out the window in this situation...
Tactics, with regards to planning, are relative to what sort of "event" you're anticipating.
An EMP would definitely be classified as a "fast crash".
Personally, I believe in the "slow grind" of life gradually becoming increasingly less luxurious as converging disasters/mishaps occur.
Despite having not finished the book yet, I understand it gets "doomier & doomier".
:eek:
The highway situation was interesting. A good reason to have a BOB/EDC bag in the G-ride at all times.
Wanna walk home, with nothing but the clothes on your back? I don't.
So far, the author's depiction of some humankind's nastier tendencies manifesting during crisis are mildly chilling, but nothing surprising.
I prefer to hold to the belief that as conditions are at their worst, I shall be at my best.
Landlord- I'm pretty sure you and I may think the same. I'm looking to get way into back country; by pack and feet if necessary, and make my home there. Most people really have no clue what this means or entails though. Probably not going to make it if they try. I can cautiously try to contact society from there. Preparation is key and king. Maybe we can hike the Smokies this fall.
Just read One Second After and now consider myself unprepared. What gets me is that the military takes the EMP threat seriously and there have even been Congressional hearings! But, the media doesn't even give it air time. I feel this may be b/c a lot of people would be going "Oh S***!" and clamoring for the gov. to do something.
So, now I am looking into getting a nice old truck without any computers, say a 1960 F-100. Next, I need a radio with vacuum tubes. Or, building a Faraday cage doesn't seem to hard. But if it was even a little wrong, you're up sh** creek.
Basically it is time to rethink my SHTF plan b/c if the sh** is an EMP, that nice truck, radio, generator, etc., is not going to work. I'd rather put my coin into items that will function in any SHTF scenario, not just what would work in most.
First off, fiction is fiction. Let's look at what we really know... This is the best detailed reporting on facts about EMP and cars I'm aware of.
According to this (http://www.empcommission.org/docs/A2473-EMP_Commission-7MB.pdf) report by the "EMP Commission" (Dr. John S Foster, Jr.; Mr. Earl Gjelde; Dr. William R. Graham (Chairman); Dr. Robert J. Hermann; Mr. Henry (Hank) M. Kluepfel; Gen Richard L. Lawson, UASF (Ret.); Dr. Gordon K. Soper; Dr. Lowell L. Wood, Jr.; Dr. Joan B Woodard).
Our test results show that traffic light controllers will begin to malfunction following exposure to EMP fields as low as a few Kv/m, thereby causing traffic congestion. Approximately 10 percent of the vehicles on the road will stop, at least temporarily, thereby possibly triggering accidents as well as congestion, at field levels above 25kV/m
We tested a sample of 37 cars in an EMP simulation laboratory, with automobile vintages ranging from 1986 through 2002. Automobiles of these vintages include extensive electronics and represent a significant fraction of automobiles on the road today. The testing was conducted by exposing running and nonrunning automobiles to sequentially increased EMP field intensities. If anomalous response (either temporary or permanent) was observed, the testing of that particular automobile was stopped. If no anomalous response was observed, the testing was continued up to a field intensity limits of the simulation capability (approximately 50kV/m).
Automobiles were subjected to EMP environments under both engine turned off and engine turned on conditions. No effects were subsequently observed in those automobiles that were not turned on during EMP exposure. The most serious effect observed on running automobiles was the motors in three cars stopped at field strengths of approximately 30 kV/m or above. In an actual EMP exposure, these vehicles would glide to a stop and require the the driver to restart them. Electronics in the dashboard of one automobile were damaged and required repair. Other effects were relatively minor. Twenty-five automobiles exhibited malfunctions that could be considered only a nuisance (e.g., blinking dashboard lights) and did not require driver intervention to correct. Eight of the 37 cars tested did not exhibit any anomalous response.
These tests are very optimistic, not a single car is dead.
Now, is it really worth the effort to get a "computerless" car to EMP proof yourself? That's not what the data or the experts are saying. If you're really paranoid, have a spare vehicle at home of your choice and stop worrying about it.
I might make a projection and say your generator should be fine. The radio, depends on what it is... I can't say the same for any appliance plugged into the wall.
I have been curious, not really worried but my ADD kid mind runs amuck sometimes, whether or not my brand new LED type super duper flashlights will work if EMP'd since they all seem to be run by a chip, the Gladius would be an example.
If so, would storing them in a metal locker, tool box or ammo can shield them?
Like I said, not worried about it, just an academic wondering type question.
For small devices, the general rule of thumb I would apply is that small battery powered devices are generally not EMP vulnerable. This would include flashlights (even the new fancy ones), red dot sights and probably PDAs/mp3 players, possibly even the smaller laptops. If it has a long external cord (power cord, tape switch for a gun light, headphones on an mp3 player), or is highly complex, that may not hold true and is harder to project.
As for radios, I would say that FM/VHF radios or anything intended to use a longer wavelength will need protection of some kind, like disconnecting the antenna. Generalized, 150 Mhz and lower frequency bands, most long range stuff. UHF and radios used for higher frequencies will generally not be vulnerable (this includes FRS/GMRS bubble packs - they are UHF) and won't require protection.
If you really want to make absolutely sure something survives, you should protect it further with a Faraday cage. Easiest way to get a ready made cage is an old microwave in good physical condition. Metal containers of various flavors can be made to work, but the lid needs to be able to conduct electricity to the body. The paint, rubber seals, etc, usually will prevent this with stock containers.
Anyway, this is a general idea, and specifics will vary depending on the time of day, your location, size and location of the burst, etc etc...
Outlander Systems
08-06-09, 14:14
BackBlast:
Despite EMP not being high on my threat radar, it's a possibility, remote or otherwise.
That being stated, the crippling effect of EMP would be on infrastructure. Shipping? Entirely computerised.
The fact that automated processes or computer interfacing is integral to almost every facet of our society, the death of the automobile is extremely low on the "Oh Sh!t" scale. There's bigger issues at hand, if this scenario happened to play out.
If, in the aforementioned scenario, automobiles were still operational, the computerised distribution system would undoubtedly be crippled, making resupply of fuel, in short, problematic. The landlines would probably go down, and cell phones are done. Thusly, no communication would be possible, short of carrier pigeons and hardened comm gear. Grocery stores would most likely be looted empty within hours. There's always a news story around Christmas of some pour soul getting stampeded over a beanie baby, Nintendo Wii, or some other ridiculous trinket "required" to pacify the youngins bellyaching and keeping up with the Junior Joneses. Bear in mind that these sorts of situations occur during "good times", with running water, electricity, and grocery stores...well gaw-leeeee.
Without doubt, in a legitimate, prolonged disaster, we're definitely going to see the worst in most people. The absolute worst. Instead of working together, and organising along the pillars of community, decades of the entitlement mentality, similar to the one people possess when they're willing to fight, tear, and maim for a Tickle-Me-Elmo, will manifest itself in a most unsavoury fashion. That's the critical shame about the situation. I don't want to turn this into some lengthy bemoaning of society's collective psychology, and the absence a of community-oriented, altruistic mindset amongst the majority of modern man, but it's not to be overlooked.
Believe it or not, despite my groans, I'm a big fan of people. Cynical? Yes. Hopeful that there's still good guys out there? Most definitely. Almost universally on this forum, there's plenty of honourable, good, decent folks, and that gives yours truly a glimmer of sunshine amongst the doom, in regards to these sorts of topics.
The "event" is the trigger, and the fallout is social unrest.
The most dangerous individual out there, in regards to contingency planning for emergencies, is the one who hoards guns and ammo, but totally neglects food, shelter, and other amenities of modern society. The truth is between the lines, and the ill intent is obfuscated by some sort of "survival of the fittest" nonsense. Anyone looking to go on the offensive, not the defensive, in an emergency, is nothing short of a sociopath. A self-aggrandising mentality motivates these sorts both in good times and bad. The difference is that, with a breakdown of the peacekeepers (law enforcement, military, etc.), the sociopaths out there are far more inclined to do what they would love to do, but without repercussion from the legal system.
The above, is what I'm worried about in a disaster scenario. Nut jobs with firepower, who would gladly waste me to eat my dog. There's plenty of unarmed folks out there as well, with the same sort of disposition, but the predatory wackos out there are the ones that give me the heebie-jeebies.
If you live in the boonies, you're lucky. My experience in rural living has shown that folks in the sticks are more community-minded, neighbor-help-neighbor, self-reliant sorts of folk. That's not to say thar we urban-dwellers are not; however, residing amongst larger population pools is more isolating than being in a low-population density area.
http://www.heritage.org/research/homelandsecurity/bg2199.cfm
Outlander Systems
08-06-09, 14:16
I've heard the "microwave Faraday cage" proposed a lot of times.
Does anyone have any links that describes the science behind this theory? If it has legitimacy, that would be the best bet for protecting essential equipment from the electromagnetic radiation.
BackBlast:
Despite EMP not being high on my threat radar, it's a possibility, remote or otherwise.
That being stated, the crippling effect of EMP would be on infrastructure. Shipping? Entirely computerised.
The fact that automated processes or computer interfacing is integral to almost every facet of our society, the death of the automobile is extremely low on the "Oh Sh!t" scale. There's bigger issues at hand, if this scenario happened to play out.
If, in the aforementioned scenario, automobiles were still operational, the computerised distribution system would undoubtedly be crippled, making resupply of fuel, in short, problematic. The landlines would probably go down,
Up to this point, I agree.
and cell phones are done.
Cell phones operate in the 800+ Mhz bands, and are not generally vulnerable. The cell network may not survive to make effective use of it's backup power, but the phones themselves will likely survive. See my earlier post.
Thusly, no communication would be possible, short of carrier pigeons and hardened comm gear.
Again, see my earlier post. Most short range radios are not vulnerable to high altitude EMP. It's more of an infrastructure risk, not a low level device risk. There is a difference. I have no intention to understate the risk or the results of collapsing infrastructure, but it's no cause to turn us into Luddites without cause. And small devices and ever cars are generally not vulnerable, thus there is no cause to revert to vacuum tubes or 50 year old car tech.
...I don't want to turn this into some lengthy bemoaning of society's collective psychology...
Then why are you going on so...?
The above, is what I'm worried about in a disaster scenario. Nut jobs with firepower, who would gladly waste me to eat my dog.
I'm not sure what this has to do with the technical understanding of the EMP threat? But, for the record, I agree with this.
The intent of my posts wasn't say say EMP was not a threat, but to clarify that EMP is not a threat to certain equipment classes that this thread is focused on that are commonly misunderstood.
Back Blast- I saw that study and felt a lot better but I keep on researching and found it was in the minority by a long way. I seem to remember that its methods had been discredited by other research(not duplicatable) but I can't find it. I almost wish I hadn't kept researching. Here's a smattering of what I found. The researchers are very respected academics so I give their conclusions much weight.
Committee on Armed Services, US House of Representatives, Dr.Lowell Wood-staff at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory-Visiting Fellow, Hoover Institution at Stanford University. "... US civilian electrical/electronic systems of all types are ever more vulnerable to an EMP destruction." "The EMP robustness of the civilian infrastructure of the United States can be summarized far less equivocally: it is entirely non-existent. Our civilian telephony, electricity, broadband communications and electronics plants are all naked to our nuclear-armed enemies. They were neither designed, nor engineered, nor constructed nor are they operated so as to survive nuclear explosion effects, even at very great distances" "Consequently, even a modest, single-explosion EMP attack on the U.S. might well devastate us as a modern, post-industrial nation."
Subcommittee on Military Research and Development, House of Representatives, Gary Smith-Director of the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, Testimony Statement "These features of EMP will induce potentially damaging voltages and currents in unprotected electronic circuits and components. Second, the area covered by an EMP signal can be immense. As a consequence, large portions of extended power and communications networks, for example, can be simultaneously put at risk." "When EMP energy enters the interior of a potentially vulnerable system, it can cause a variety of adverse effects. These effects include transient, resettable, or permanent upset of digital logic circuits and performance degradation or burnout of electronic components. The collected EMP energy itself can cause malfunction or device failure directly; or it can trigger the system's internal power sources in unintended ways, causing damage by the power sources within the system itself."
United States Department of Defense and the Energy Research and Development Administration, "The Effects of Nuclear Weapons"(Third Edition) "The intense electric and magnetic fields can damage unprotected electrical and electronic equipment over a large area."
Report of the Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse, House of Representatives, Dr. William R. Graham
“Depending on the specific characteristics of the attacks, unprecedented cascading failures of our major infrastructures could result. In that event, a regional or national recovery would be long and difficult and would seriously degrade the safety and overall viability of our Nation. The primary avenues for catastrophic damage to the Nation are through our electric power infrastructure and thence into our telecommunications, energy, and other infrastructures. These, in turn, can seriously impact other important aspects of our Nation’s life, including the financial system; means of getting food, water, and medical care to the citizenry; trade; and production of goods and services. The recovery of any one of the key national infrastructures is dependent on the recovery of others. The longer the outage, the more problematic and uncertain the recovery will be. It is possible for the functional outages to become mutually reinforcing until at some point the degradation of infrastructure could have irreversible effects on the country’s ability to support its population.”
The threat of an EMP is real. The destruction it would cause has been well documented under the testimony of imminent scientists. At this point I would say the destructive capabilities and the inherent problems that would arise could possibly be debilitating and devastating to society.
I've heard the "microwave Faraday cage" proposed a lot of times.
Does anyone have any links that describes the science behind this theory? If it has legitimacy, that would be the best bet for protecting essential equipment from the electromagnetic radiation.
The concept can be understood here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage
The microwave frequency band is 1-40 Ghz, microwaves themselves operate at ~2450 Ghz. A microwave must operate in such a fashion as to keep this radiation inside the little box. The allowed holes sizes are small due to the high frequency, 2450 Ghz can fit through a pretty small hole. If you want to "test" your microwave, pick the strongest FM station in your area, tune a portable radio to that frequency, and put it in the microwave and close it. If you get only static, it's operating well, if not, it's not a good Faraday cage. You could do the same with the strongest AM station. A similar test can be done for any makeshift cage you make.
High altitude EMP (the most destructive) is generally only going to be in the 150 Mhz frequencies and lower at 30-50 kV/m field strength done in the EMP report is a good baseline. Yes, Russia could make much stronger fields to try and kill more devices but it doesn't make sense to try to send up huge weapons as a small one makes for a much easier-to-build delivery vehicle, and it's intended to target infrastructure and not my car or my Aimpoint. As I stated, these conditions require antennas/receptors to collect enough energy to damage the device. This is why UHF devices and cell phones are not vulnerable, the antennas are too short to collect enough energy to cause damage. 15 inches and longer will start collecting potentially damaging amounts of energy.
The intense electric and magnetic fields can damage unprotected electrical and electronic equipment over a large area
This kind of quote is misleading because not all "unprotected" electrical equipment is vulnerable in the first place. To get a new electrical device approved by the FCC requires that the device go through EMI testing, one side effect of EMI testing and changes to reduce EMI is that the devices are also less vulnerable to outside energy. Effectively, the FCC enforces some level of hardening on ALL electronics sold in the US.
By in large these reports and discussions are directed at the large infrastructure class systems and they assume the reader understands this. Usually, not even car size devices are included. That's why the car specific studies are important, that's really the smallest system that's ever undergone methodical testing. The infrastructure class systems are incredibly vulnerable to EMP, this point is beyond dispute. Inasmuch as society is dependent on that infrastructure, it will suffer. And society is very dependent on the electrical and telecommunication infrastructure.
I saw that study and felt a lot better but I keep on researching and found it was in the minority by a long way. I seem to remember that its methods had been discredited by other research(not duplicatable) but I can't find it.
I would need a cite for that, they published their methods and I've never read of anyone failing to duplicate them through subsequent tests. Subsequent tests would be most interesting. I've heard some say the testing was invalid, but not from anybody with the technical knowledge or understanding to say WHY it was invalid. Thus I must assume they're holding to preconceived ideas rather than adding to the knowledge pool.
I have some limited results from non-public .mil testing from many years ago, the results were not as positive as this last batch but I suspect the field strengths used were much higher, which would account for the discrepancy. I will say that some cars survived that test too (some did not), and I might add that higher quality vehicles and brands tended to do better, and there were differences between brands and models. But those cars were all 18+ years old so I don't know how relevant it is to today.
This information is what it is, I'm an engineer and work in the radio/datalink side of the DoD, I've read the EMP reports and understand the general concepts at work. I don't know all these things for 100% fact but it's as educated a guess as I can make on the cumulative information found to date. I'm not going to belabor or argue the points, if someone disagrees with me that's your privilege. I did want to get some info out there that I think is more in line with reality than some fictional authors promote... I don't do anything special to protect myself from EMP, and I trust my Aimpoint, flashlights, and radios will all function without special attention. Any mp3 players, PDAs, or laptops are gravy. I depend on the grace of the Lord that my car will - if I need it. Though I couldn't run it long without gas pumps anyway. I also try to have plan B.
BB- I wish I could find the info. showing the report was flawed but I can't. If someone said this to me, I would say it doesn't exist until I see it. The point about fictional authors; taken. My cited sources, however, are valid. These are well respected academics that say an EMP would cause significant damage. I dbl. majored in Bio/Botany, so not an engineer, but I did take 2 semesters of Physics, same for Chem., Org. Chem, etc. All this means is I can spot valid scientific research and grapple with it. I understand your feelings about not worrying too much. I simply choose to take some small steps that could possibly be of benefit. I wouldn't mind having an old restored truck and I would like the "challenge" of building some Faraday cages.
Plan B-right on. Plan A seldom stays in effect for anything. The sources cited seem to think small electronics would be fried. As far as getting gas, manual pumps could be rigged to get to underground gas, but until then, there would probably be plenty of unusable cars to siphon from. Or, taken from above ground tanks. I really wish Lawrence Livermore labs, MIT, or another highly qualified lab would do some in depth, large scale testing on a wide array of electronics so that we could have more info. with which to make decisions. I simply choose to take some small steps as a just in case. The consequences of even a 50% loss of electronic whatever would severely cripple most people. Too bad you can't share your test results with us. Maybe you'd make my point for me.:p
Telecomtodd
08-06-09, 17:42
Have fun with this one: http://www.missilethreat.com/archives/id.16/subject_detail.asp
My commercial expertise is in "wireless" communications, thus my screen name. You'd be surprised to see all of the 1960s tube-based radio equipment stocked away in Civil Defense quonset huts all over the country. I know more about EMP effects than I want to know. It scares the hell out of me.
If you want to see a really good dramatization of an EMP effect, find a copy of "The Day After", a movie released in 1983. You can find DVD copies of this movie on Amazon for only a few bucks. It's a tremendous movie that makes you think about the unthinkable.
Outlander Systems
08-06-09, 19:10
Then why are you going on so...?
I'm not sure what this has to do with the technical understanding of the EMP threat...
"The "event" is the trigger, and the fallout is social unrest."
The government's primary concern is their own survival, not ours, and their ability to stay in power.
Thats why they have bunkers built at taxpayers expense and we dont, thats why the .mil is hardening stuff but we dont have access to it etc
I should have been more specific when I said...
... getting at the likelihood that a nuke attack won't come from the air, but from the back of some truck. Hopefully neither situation comes to fruition, but I think a "suitcase nuke" is far more likely than a missile
Full well agree
I am of the opinion this this is a threat we will be facing in the not-so-distant future, and the more I read the more it surprises me it hasn't happened yet. Of all the SHTF scenarios, this is the only one I'm really concerned about, and here is why:
Iran has been preparing for this very attack but most people don't realize it because of the MSMs failure to report it. Some of the "failed" Iranian missile launches weren't actually failures at all. They were fused at high altitudes... constant with the way you would detonate a nuke for an EMP (the 200 or 300 mile altitude range). They have also been launching missiles off barges in the Caspian sea. There is no reason for them to launch a missile off the water to hit any of their neighbors, so they are obviously practicing for something else.
The MSM painted the North Korean nuke tests as nothing to worry about because they were "small" bombs (few kilotons), but that is exactly what you want to produce an EMP. Megaton class thermonuclear devices are inefficient at producing EMP, what is better is simple fission bombs of a few kilotons.
We didn't have to worry so much about this stuff in the past. Its not like EMP is anything new, but the balance of power is all screwed up now because MAD is useless with these countries. We could turn NK or Iran into a sheet of glass with a counterstrike, so they aren't developing these weapons to compete with us. They want to destroy us, and EMP is really the only way to do it. The would win a war against us in one second. Its great for them because they just hand one of these nukes and a SCUD to a terrorist group who carries out the attack. We can't retaliate (with whatever capability we have left) because we can't trace the attack to any country. There are no fingerprints.
This will happen eventually, and if you don't believe it, then you still have to concede that, as others have pointed out, it will eventually be caused naturally. It is being taken seriously by all those except the people currently in power in the White House and Capitol building, and there is conference on it this month. http://www.empactamerica.org/
Zhurdan,
I see your point but a simple Faraday cage can protect electronics. There will be some people with working electronics, mainly military and some emergency services, and I would like to be able to get in touch.
I bet they'll be busy if they're still in business.
Heavy Metal
09-02-09, 18:01
An Iranian Scud does not possess the throw weight to loft a sufficiently large device to a high altitude.
They also do not possess any large Megaton class hydrogen bombs so they also lack the device to launch.
A Hiroshima class device would be a firecracker emp wise.
Non-Nuclear EMP devices are very local in effect.
A NNEMP device will no more affect the entire CONUS than a 2,000 pound bomb will destroy a city.
An Iranian Scud does not possess the throw weight to loft a sufficiently large device to a high altitude.
They also do not possess any large Megaton class hydrogen bombs so they also lack the device to launch.
This is a common misconception. Megaton class hydrogen bombs are not very effective in creating the E1 EMP effect, which is the most destructive. This is the burst of gamma rays, interacting with the earths magnetic field which causes the electronic buildup that does the most damage. Not only do fission weapons produce a stronger EMP, the simpler the weapon the better since the high explosives that surround the core in some bomb designs will absorb most of the gamma rays (think Fat Man implosion design vs Little Boy gun-type). The point is, EMP E1 strength is not purely dependent on weapon yield. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse#Weapon_yield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse#Weapon_yield)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse#Common_misconceptions
So, yes they do possess the device to launch (in NK's case, and soon in Iran) and since smaller, simpler, lighter weapons work better, they can loft these device to high altitude... and they certainly wouldn't be firecrackers emp-wise.
Your correct about non-nuclear EMP devices however.
As for radios, I would say that FM/VHF radios or anything intended to use a longer wavelength will need protection of some kind, like disconnecting the antenna. Generalized, 150 Mhz and lower frequency bands, most long range stuff. UHF and radios used for higher frequencies will generally not be vulnerable (this includes FRS/GMRS bubble packs - they are UHF) and won't require protection.
you can easily protect your radio equipment from an EMP entering via your antenna system with a NEMP/Lightning protector
such as
http://www.polyphaser.com/productdata.aspx?class=nemp
ALL my base stations and repeaters have NEMP protectors on them, its pretty common practice among commercial 2-way radio installs... not so much for EMP protection but lightning protection
I have a question, might sound dumb but still........:o
If am EMP was to hit and your truck, and generators are off at the time it hits will it still be effected ?:confused:
shadowalker
10-01-09, 15:48
Protecting a shortwave radio from EMP would be about as far as I would go.
It is best to not depend on technology for survival. Civil unrest is the likely result of an EMP, as well as most other large scale disasters or attacks so I'd rather prepare for that.
Having a working vehicle is of limited value, roads will be nearly impassable, huge fuel distribution problems, and the fact that unless there is a compelling reason to bug out (like biological or nuclear) most people are far better off to shelter in.
If you are in even a medium sized city your chances of bugging out successfully are very low and if you are in the country you probably don't need to. Being in the open with a working vehicle or valuable items is the last thing you want in a civil unrest situation.
Generators are handy for hurricanes but again limited value in a long term situation. They consume large amounts of fuel, need maintenance and generate a good amount of noise that can attract unwanted attention for very little in return.
Take the $500 to $1500 you'll spend on a decent generator and invest it in a good water filter, food supply, ammunition, and other supplies.
personally if your in shtf situation and you have a vehicle that works ditch it because the first person that sees you tooling around in it is gonna shoot you and steal it. i have my perfected mode of transportation a good old fashioned A.T.C.D. (all terrain combat donkey) all else fails its like an MRE on hooves then its the shoe leather express. screw electronics gps is going to be worthless get a map, a radio there are billions of them your bound to find one that works, and for heaping hordes of outlaws run and live to fight another day but stash your goods in a place no one but you will find them, and i dont buy that EMP will still effect all electronics that are on or off the only way it would is if the device relied on some form of memory storage (ive blanked out a few hard drives on accident) which granted is most things these days.
personally if you're in shtf situation and you have a vehicle that works ditch it because the first person that sees you tooling around in it is gonna shoot you and steal it. i have my perfected mode of transportation a good old fashioned A.T.C.D. (all terrain combat donkey)....
Why would someone shoot you for the car but not for the donkey? They're both forms of transport.
I just picked up One Second After, I'm going to start reading it soon.
Outlander Systems
12-31-09, 07:34
Why would someone shoot you for the car but not for the donkey? They're both forms of transport.
I just picked up One Second After, I'm going to start reading it soon.
The big difference is that I can't eat a car...
Why would someone shoot you for the car but not for the donkey? They're both forms of transport.
I just picked up One Second After, I'm going to start reading it soon.
If you really want to insulate yoursel from getting your transportation jacked then get a mule. **** those guys. My folks only had horses growing up except for one instance when my Dad got a mule for a pack animal when hunting Northern N.M.
That thing was the wildest, craziest beast known to man and from my experiences, they're all like that. Potential "jackers" would pass you by, no doubt.
Personally I think alot of the speak going on in this thread is borderline lunatic fringe. Is it possible? Yeah. Is a Zombi Apocolypse possible? I think we're getting there.
Either way, preparing for this is a good idea. It does sound like the very WCS. Doesn't hurt to be prepared for the WCS and it doesn't take that much modfication to regular levels of readiness.
If this did happen it would mean that I would have to go to work. Sounds like a good time actually. Zombie's or EMP.
Why would someone shoot you for the car but not for the donkey? They're both forms of transport.
I just picked up One Second After, I'm going to start reading it soon.
this is a valid question. my thoughts on donkey transpo over vehicle transpo is that people are so materialistic and set in there ways that they are going to stick to what they know they arent going to mess with a donkey at least long enough for me and my a$$ to get out of the city. a lot of vehicles are still going to run the blast radius of an emp is not that big have you ever noticed that there are huge dealerships in small towns out in the middle of no where and most of those dealerships have fuel stations on site. so my choice of donkey transpo is simply to get from the big city to my shtf land and a possible work or food source later on.
this is a valid question. my thoughts on donkey transpo over vehicle transpo is that people are so materialistic and set in there ways that they are going to stick to what they know they arent going to mess with a donkey at least long enough for me and my a$$ to get out of the city. a lot of vehicles are still going to run the blast radius of an emp is not that big have you ever noticed that there are huge dealerships in small towns out in the middle of no where and most of those dealerships have fuel stations on site. so my choice of donkey transpo is simply to get from the big city to my shtf land and a possible work or food source later on.
Capitalization and punctuation go a looong way, Dude.
nobody likes a grammar nazi DUDE.
HK_Shooter_03
01-01-10, 17:27
I've read the book, too. I wouldn't recommend placing overmuch stock in a work of fiction, written in a "worst case scenario" fashion, that promotes the author's personal agenda/fears/opinions. And that's exactly what it was - a fluff piece about EMP.
+1
I'd be more concerned about a riot.
MSP "Sarge"
01-02-10, 15:19
Zombies for me!
a lot of vehicles are still going to run the blast radius of an emp is not that big have you ever noticed that there are ..........
:confused:
Break those sentences up. It's terrible, the way you type is the only way to make an impression on the internet.
And now, back to the end of the world.
hkusp1- Read the data presented to committee's in House and Senate. Apparently the .mil considers it a viable and real threat. As in N. Korea and Iran. The effect's you describe are not the same as experts testimony.
A62Rambler
01-03-10, 01:16
I saw a show on the possible effects of EMP and it said that most cars built since sometime in the 1990's should survive an emp. The reason being that a car is basically a big faraday cage and they had done something to increase the chances of cars working. This was done not because they were concerned but a result of improved electronis to increase the reliability of cars. Of course the scientist who said this also pointed out that NO ONE knows, it's all theory based on what was observed during nuclear tests. No one has ever tested modern electronics or the changes that have gone into modern cars. No one has ever actually created a high altitude EMP. It's kind of hard to find anyplace in the world where you can set off an high altitude nuke and test if it really would cause power grids to go down. Personally, I don't think I'm going to worry too much because really why would any nation or terrorist go for an EMP and the possible effects when they could just nuke a couple of cities and have assured results? :confused: I'm pretty sure our nukes have been hardened to survive an EMP and if Iran or NK hit us, I'm pretty sure we'd send them a few missiles to make that a one time occurence. Granted both leaders are not the most rational thinkers but localized warming trends in the neighborhood of 5000 degrees is a pretty big deterrent. Terrorist setting of a backpack nuke is probably more of a reality. Remember the .mil has to prepare for anything so it reduces the likelihood anyone will try it. I'm sure they have a plan in place to deal with an invasion by China. In reality though, China depends on the US buying it's goods so how likely is it they would want to end the largest buyer of their goods?
The more I think about it... the current trend of our government spending is more likely to cause the EOTWAWKI than even two perfect EMPs. So why would anyone want to risk the possibility of bringing about a rapid change of our current government spending when they can just sit back and watch as we do more to hurt ourselves than any outside enemy has in the history of our country. :o
Outlander Systems
01-03-10, 12:59
I do find it interesting that most people seem concerned that vehicles will stop working after an EMP and dont think too much about other stuff.
Vehicles are the least of my concerns in this scenario.
Lack of water is a horrifying prospect.
Mike G- Saw what several hospitals look like after 12hrs. and no power. Very, very ugly. Luckily wife was at Ochsner(Residency) which was only hospital to never close. Massive, massive generators and Nat'l Guard, LE from all over, and some of the 82nd kept it locked up tighter than a nun's crotch. There was absolutely zero funny business there.
Vehicles not working, no power, etc. All can be dealt with through preparation. One thing most forget is stocking plenty of heirloom seeds for crop production. Yeah, yeah, all this starts to get somewhat tinfoil hat, but with some simple, not too expensive preparation, one can make it through. Always wanted a vintage auto, why not buy a restored pre-'70 truck? Not hard buying seeds and storing them. Not hard doing any prep's for that matter. All comes down to time and $$$. Many food/H2O prep's are inexpensive. I just go about it as I am able and I feel that this mindset can vastly increase the probability of surviving SHTF or TEOTWAWKI. Will always make sure to have a well(don't forget manual ability to pump), septic, and a water source nearby. Moving this spring and wife and I have discussed this. So glad she went through Katrina. She knows firsthand the need for prepping. Grandfather kept mules on farm, wife and I both from rural areas-in one now- and see several asses and/or mules in my future.
A62Rambler
01-03-10, 14:49
6933,
I read my post again and my point wasn't clear. In a nutshell:
1) Its an extremely remote possibility (EMP attack).
2) Vehicles might survive so why spend coin on a pre 70's vehicle that will need lots of PMCS when you won't be able to get gas to run it after an EMP.
3) Preps are based not on any one scenario but on the possibility of any scenario.
4) My funds are limited so a vehicle is the last thing I'm worried about. Now a couple good mules would be handy but they are a pain in the burro if you don't need them now so I don't have any and don't plan to have any. Plus, the last time I checked, mules are sterile so they aren't renewable unless you have a mare and a jack.
5) Priorities should be oxygen, shelter, water, food, and a way to renew all those items. The rule of threes and then Maslow's hierarchy of needs should be your guide not a Congressional or Military study on what will happen in an EMP. There's way more chance of other things happening on a more regional basis that should be considered first. But, if you base preps on only this or that then something else will happen. Murphy's Law of survival should be considered right after the Maslow's hierarchy. :D
A6- Based on your #3, then my decision to purchase a pre-70 vehicle(that I would use anyway) makes sense. Never said it would have to run exclusively on diesel or gas. Pretty amazing what a diesel can be run with.
Maybe my points weren't clear either.:D
I will be purchasing land with no less than 25 acres in a remote area within a year. Growing up with farming on both sides of the family, I have no prob. keeping stock. I will run cow, goat, chicken, donkey, and mule. Replenishing not an issue. Doesn't have to be herds/flocks to be viable. Not that expensive(yes, it's relative) to keep 500 gallons of fuel in stock. Simply use it to fuel the everyday drivers and farm equip. and keep it topped off. In a large agricultural area this is not uncommon. Having all diesel drivers is fine for us. Fuel runs out, no more available? Hitch the mules to the plow/wagon, etc. I'll be mobile one way or another. If it just madness to stay where I am for whatever reason, unsafe to travel, etc. then within a day's walk is wilderness that stretches for many,many,many miles. Getting there would entail hiking/riding through almost exclusively remote areas w/o any people around. Living out west in certain areas has it's advantages. Think western OR and WA, ID, northern NV, ND, SD, and the 51st state right above us.
Solar and wind power; micro-hydro if possible. Add a well(s), septic, and a running H2O source and I'm in a good position. Will be shooting for off the grid. Living off the beaten path has many advantages. Not for some, but a great way to raise a family and live life.
Heavy duty solar flare. Yup, they can hit the atmosphere hard enough to give you the same effect of the multi-MT ionsphere detonation, except this will take out everyone's infrastructure. This will make the author look like an optimist.
The so-called Photon Belt would do just that.
What people forget is that a solar flare can have the same effect as an EMP blast if it his the earth.
streaker69
09-13-10, 21:38
First: My apologies for reviving a slightly dead thread, but I feel there are a couple of points that were missed in this thread and might actually spur a little more discussion. I did read through the entire thread before posting this.
I'm actually more concerned about a massive solar flare than I am worried about an enemy having the ability to set of an EMP burst that could do damage to the core of the US.
Here's why: On September 1, 1859 a solar storm known as the Carrington Event occurred. This storm was observed around the world by the astronomers at the time and in the very early electrical system in place, mostly Telegraph, this even created dramatic things. Telegraph systems operated on their own from the induced electrical current in the atmosphere, and the Aurora Borealis was visible in latitudes you should never see.
If a solar flare like that were to hit the earth today, not only would we see any satellite that's facing the sun at the time when the flare hits get destroyed by the inflowing solar wind, but it would completely overload the electrical grid. Transformer cores would be saturated and begin to melt. Since most of those big transformers are filled with oil to keep them cool, they would then explode.
The grid would experience a cascade failure as there is no real way to protect the system from such an event. Now here's the real problem. The current electrical utilities do not have spares of the equipment that would be damaged. Spares would need to be manufactured after the event occurred, of course, this would be difficult to do because the grid is down. Priority for power would of course need to be given to the plants that can manufacture these items. I believe it was estimated that if this kind of event were to occur, and there was a massive cascade failure, we would be without power for almost a year.
I'm sure that many of you know that our sun runs through cycles, just this summer we started to come out of an extended solar minimum. Very similar to the solar minimum that occurred before the Carrington Event. We have already seen one major solar storm just about a month ago. They suspect there's more in our future. I just saw an article tonight that they suspect there's going to be a solar storm and CME soon.
For more information, read up on The Carrington Event (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859) and check out SpaceWeather (http://spaceweather.com/).
I believe it was estimated that if this kind of event were to occur, and there was a massive cascade failure, we would be without power for almost a year.
The following was compiled from educational shows and EMP based web pages. Grain of salt.
The big 100 ton transformers are not made in this country, take 18 months to build, and have a 3 year waiting list right now.
The following was taked from a fed.gov report on nuke based EMP threat.
If the U.S. of A. was EMPd it would take 10 years to completely restore the grid.
I haven't read an estimate of the whole world after a solar storm.
ETA: And from One Second After, 90% of Americans would be dead in the first year. Mostly starving, some from "defeated" diseases that came back when hygiene and the medical profession left.
streaker69
09-14-10, 18:18
I haven't read an estimate of the whole world after a solar storm.
ETA: And from One Second After, 90% of Americans would be dead in the first year. Mostly starving, some from "defeated" diseases that came back when hygiene and the medical profession left.
I would consider that Darwinism at work.
A bad EMP or CME is going to mean a world of sh** for the majority in the affected areas.
A bad EMP or CME is going to mean a world of sh** for the majority in the affected areas.
A bad CME would strip the atmosphere and scorch the Earth. The scale is a 1-10, don't remember the name. A class X (10) is the end of all life on or in the planet. I don't even think extremophiles living deep in the Earth could be shielded from that much radiation.
will an eotech or aimpoint survive an EMP blast or would that render the site useless?
also, would it matter if the site was on or off? like if it was turned off when the blast hit, would it still work?
would vehicles work if they were turned off when an EMP device went off?
i was under the assumption that EMP will only disrupt electronics for a short period and then theyll start working again?
i think this would help you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvu08Y9XJ0U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0odJKYTzXg8
bondmid003
09-23-10, 10:58
I'm going to have to check out this book now, looks interesting
Heavy Metal
09-23-10, 12:39
personally if your in shtf situation and you have a vehicle that works ditch it because the first person that sees you tooling around in it is gonna shoot you and steal it. i have my perfected mode of transportation a good old fashioned A.T.C.D. (all terrain combat donkey) all else fails its like an MRE on hooves then its the shoe leather express. screw electronics gps is going to be worthless get a map, a radio there are billions of them your bound to find one that works, and for heaping hordes of outlaws run and live to fight another day but stash your goods in a place no one but you will find them, and i dont buy that EMP will still effect all electronics that are on or off the only way it would is if the device relied on some form of memory storage (ive blanked out a few hard drives on accident) which granted is most things these days.
GPS would work fine as long as your reciever worked. Nothing EMP related is gonna touch those rad-hardened sats 11 thousand miles overhead.
ewells2420
10-04-10, 15:28
which some people (or aka scientists) are predicting might happen near or around 2012. The solar flare activity that is.
Do I believe this? Not really, but we will see.
Three threats I have read of for EMP.
A regional attack by a ICBM-less group as mentioned above. If it popped over CA or NY coastal areas you do not get the scenario the book's author went with.
A national attack by ICBM armed forces that have megaton + level devices. Pop two at about 10-15 miles up and you will be getting closer to what the author outlined.
Heavy duty solar flare. Yup, they can hit the atmosphere hard enough to give you the same effect of the multi-MT ionsphere detonation, except this will take out everyone's infrastructure. This will make the author look like an optimist.
1776 Patriot
10-05-10, 15:35
Wow, this all sure opens up the "preperation" for WTSHTF. This video(pt.2) posted above pretty much says it all. Damn, sure does limit your options if there ever was an EMP event. Great forum by the way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0odJKYTzXg8&feature=related
Ken
This hits close to home for me, I work in the power industry.
Our equipment is pretty susceptible to all kinds of interference. Solar Flares is a biggie. EMP is a real threat, it would cause the most damage over a large area could be the "end game"
The gov. is pushing more and more for "smart grid" technology, that is nice, but this also relies more and more on technology that is very vulnerable to all kinds of outside forces. Good for controlling a system but sensitive technology.
Anyone familiar with hand held radios can attest to this. We have had lots of problems with "Keying the Mike" near a relay with a microprocessor and either frying it or tripping the equipment offline.
Add into that the fact that we keep very few spares of anything in stock. When there is a problem, 9 times out of 10 we don't have a spare and we are offline while we locate and overnight in parts.
You may want to be aware of the people factor also, we are doing more and more with less and less people, and in a "grid down" scenario, getting the right people to the right places will be a chore. To be brutally honest, I will be hard pressed to abandon my family in such a situation. Once the TV's go off....who knows what will happen with the dregs.
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