View Full Version : let's talk about weapon durability
i'm trying to get a feel for whether i have really bad luck, or if this platform just isn't as tough as i always thought it was.
i'm hard on my guns.. not any harder than happens through the course of training, i dont deliberately beat on my guns or use them for things they're not supposed to be used for- no prybarring the barrel, no using it as a hammer, no throwing, no driving over 'em with deuces and crap.
broke a pistol grip while rushing.. fell on it- manufacturer apologized and replaced
broke a handguard when some douche knocked over leaning against a wall (totally unacceptable)- manufacturer apologized and replaced
cracked the RE ring on a lower, also while rushing, using the weapon to absorb the impact of my descent as taught to me in the military- no replacement, didnt even ask.
had a handguard come already broken in the box- mfr apologized and replaced
and now, this time, i not only bent another handguard, but blew my red dot out about 20MOA in one fell swoop after dropping the weapon from no more than 3 feet, without any extra push- just a straight drop, weapon landed squarely on its side and clattered for about a microsecond. handguard bent, RDS out of commission. the muzzle device on this weapon is permed, so no removing the handguard without ****ing up my perm- i did, of course, pull the entire barrel to make sure the receiver wasn't ****ed up, it's not. who knows about the RDS- i dont know how they're built, but it seems to me something has to be ****ed up for the dot mechanism to move that far without windage and elevation knobs being turned. until i discover otherwise, it's OOA.
i haven't called manufacturers on this one yet, but i will tomorrow. since i'm just talking about weapon and component durability in general, manufacturer's names are no important, and shall be omitted and reserved for another possible thread when all is said and done, including correspondence and final deposition.
so- what are your experiences, thoughts, theories? am i the only one who breaks expensive, "quality" shit all the time? sure seems like it. what have you broke? Should a handguard be able to take a 3 foot drop to concrete? what about an RDS? Should you be able to put your full weight on a pistol grip without it snapping, or should i have started packing around a spare pistol grip years ago? should an RDS, which didnt even hit the ground itself, blow way the **** out of zero from a 3 foot dead fall?
keep in mind- none of this stuff is cheap. no YHM, no UTG, no bushnell- all the "best" on the market.
i know you dont want to drag any companies through the mud, however it could help at least for other people to know their " "best" on the market" stuff is easily damaged. in fact i've seen a trend others are probably aware of, when you talk about products on forums, the manufactors take note and watch. this could be a good or bad thing, though i dont think you should worry too much about naming the products at least.
i know you dont want to drag any companies through the mud, however it could help at least for other people to know their " "best" on the market" stuff is easily damaged. in fact i've seen a trend others are probably aware of, when you talk about products on forums, the manufactors take note and watch. this could be a good or bad thing, though i dont think you should worry too much about naming the products at least.
i still have faith in the good manufacturers- i've had problems with quality shit my whole life, so i feel like i have some kind of curse attached to me that is no fault of theirs. i know that's irrational, but all the same i will give each the chance to make good on something before bitching about their shit. otherwise, these threads could easily turn into 5 pages of shitting on a good name, with one final post at the end like "oh, in the end they took care of it.. hah" which most will never read.
i'll post, but only after all's said and done. i want the thread to start with the end.
this thread exists simply to explore weapon and component reliability, and breakability, in general terms. if other want to name experiences with specific manufacturers, that's perfectly ok- "said and done" experiences are all good.
SwatDawg15
06-15-09, 22:52
I know by your posts here you don't use crap. So this puzzles me that your kit is breaking from minimal abuse... interesting to know the brand later.
i suppose in the spirit of my own rule, i can include those matters said and done:
both previous handguards were DD M4 models, and both were taken care of.
the pistol grip was an Ergo, and there is a thread on that story here.
the receiver's manufacturer was never given a chance to make good, so their identity shall remain unknown. my thinking is i probably did something to it off the field that manifested itself during hard use- we'll never know, it's been buried in a landfill for a few years by now.
Thomas M-4
06-15-09, 23:10
Stop using your AR-15 has a sledgehammer LOL just kidding. I have dropped a few rifles hunting with no problems [just don't tell anybody] but they have all been dropped in the dirt. Crazy cat I used to have knocked my AR off a chair onto the hard wood floor no problems there either. A couple of years back I dropped a EAA Witness 9mm on a concrete floor slipped out of my hand fell maybe 2 feet and landed straight on the hammer breaking it:eek: Saw a older gentleman at the range sighting in a very nice swiss 96 mauser he was putting up some killer groups with that rifle. The range went cold and everybody walked downrange to change targets half way down the range I heard that mauser slide off the rest and land on the concrete slab:eek: They guy tried another group after that and said it wasn't grouping the same anymore.:( In my humble experience that concrete can be a bitch. YMMV
It is expected that a weapons body is built in a way that tolerates the worst of combat conditions. It is unacceptable that a weapon have furniture or a bodily component (ex: upper or lower receiver, etc...) break by an undramatic fall to the ground, or bump into a wall, etc, ..........or by disassembling the weapon. *COUGH*wtfar180blowerrecieverbreakingwtf*COUGH*
I'm always thinking about the operating system within a weapon. Parts that move violently with much stress being put on them should be designed for absolute durability.
i have seen a recent build of yours. though i will not bring up names since you dont want to (completely fair) i cant comment on your RDS as i dont own one. as far as your stock i couldnt tell from the picture but i'm assuming its a dd and as far as my experience goes (fell off tailgate) they are rock solid. of course there are always exceptions to every rule but it still seams odd it bent from a drop (not calling you a liar). i have an aimpoint and have dropped my rifle directly on the aimpoint with no shift. in fact i was trying to prove a point to my dad and his gun show special RDS's by removing my aimpoint and tossing it to him (he dropped it) and put it back on with no shift. i dont beat my rifle but i dont baby it either. its been in dirt and still has dirt on it, gets cleaned maybe every couple hundred rounds (i think) and generally gets treated like a piece of steel. i would like to point out if i used my rifle to slow a fall, i would probably break something on it, i'm 6'2" 260 so it would likely not like me on it.
BKB, just sounds like lots of bad luck, and you're dealing with it totally appropriately. I feel like Murphy's Law and I are often married when it comes to consumer products, so I compensate by trying to buy only the best I can afford, and even then I get clobbered sometimes. So I stock up on bolts, springs, etc., just knowing there will come a time. Hate to be the guy to say it, but if you went to a different platform, Murphy would follow you there. Be at peace with the platform...and have a back-up ;)
I think it's just bad luck..... I have beat these weapons up for almost 20 years, starting with the old M16A1 up to the M4 and never even under the hardest conditions in the worst places on earth had anything break.
Sounds like you need to switch to a more durable system, like an AK,
or maybe a war hammer. :D
or maybe a war hammer. :D
make sure said war hammer does not have wood handle!:rolleyes:
Read this thread and thought Id post something Ive always wondered and I guess worried about in the back of my mind.
My area of concern is having a single point sling attached to a Burnsed Loop type end plate. Not the end plate loop itself breaking but more of the receiver threads and/or RE threads failing from holding all the weight.
Has anyone ever heard of this happening??
Read this thread and thought Id post something Ive always wondered and I guess worried about in the back of my mind.
My area of concern is having a single point sling attached to a Burnsed Loop type end plate. Not the end plate loop itself breaking but more of the receiver threads and/or RE threads failing from holding all the weight.
Has anyone ever heard of this happening??
nope.. and i sling some of my guns from an endplate mount. let this thread stand as testament: if I can do it without damaging the weapon, it's probably pretty sound method.
well... by the level of activity in this thread, i'll conclude that i am an anomaly. i really expected at least SOME broken shit stories, but apparently i'm alone. not sure if that makes me feel better or worse..
Thanks for responding! Hope you have better luck with your future builds.
nope.. and i sling some of my guns from an endplate mount. let this thread stand as testament: if I can do it without damaging the weapon, it's probably pretty sound method.
well... by the level of activity in this thread, i'll conclude that i am an anomaly. i really expected at least SOME broken shit stories, but apparently i'm alone. not sure if that makes me feel better or worse..
Look on the bright side, bkb. You would make the Perfect Beta Tester for all the firearms companies/parts mfgrs! Think of the ad campaigns....BKB-proof! If he can't break it, nobody can!
Or you can always do what USBP379 suggested:
switch to a more durable system, like an AK
Failure2Stop
06-18-09, 10:33
cracked the RE ring on a lower, also while rushing, using the weapon to absorb the impact of my descent as taught to me in the military- no replacement, didnt even ask.
You cannot use the stock to absorb impact with a collapsible stock like you can with an A1/A2 stock. As it is, this is an out-dated technique and there are much better ways to move into position.
and now, this time, i not only bent another handguard, but blew my red dot out about 20MOA in one fell swoop after dropping the weapon from no more than 3 feet, without any extra push- just a straight drop, weapon landed squarely on its side and clattered for about a microsecond. handguard bent, RDS out of commission. the muzzle device on this weapon is permed, so no removing the handguard without ****ing up my perm- i did, of course, pull the entire barrel to make sure the receiver wasn't ****ed up, it's not. who knows about the RDS- i dont know how they're built, but it seems to me something has to be ****ed up for the dot mechanism to move that far without windage and elevation knobs being turned. until i discover otherwise, it's OOA.
Completely unacceptable, provided that everything was assembled/mounted correctly by the end-user. I have thrown my guns all over the place and never had one lose zero or bend/break anything. I would expect nothing less. If the optic is an Aimpoint I would definately expect there to be some abnormal issue with workmanship or material failure, and would expect a replacement.
Do you have rail covers on the HG? What do you mean when you say they are bent?
What mount for the Aimpoint?
You cannot use the stock to absorb impact with a collapsible stock like you can with an A1/A2 stock. As it is, this is an out-dated technique and there are much better ways to move into position.
Completely unacceptable, provided that everything was assembled/mounted correctly by the end-user. I have thrown my guns all over the place and never had one lose zero or bend/break anything. I would expect nothing less. If the optic is an Aimpoint I would definately expect there to be some abnormal issue with workmanship or material failure, and would expect a replacement.
Do you have rail covers on the HG? What do you mean when you say they are bent?
the bend is at the fastening mechanism. the handguard itself is not bent, not by appearances at least. the rails are completely covered with XTMs- all of which, including those on the impact side, are still completely undamaged. aside from the handguard bend and the blown out RDS, the only evidence of the fall is a slightly dented brass deflector.
the RDS is mounted on my own special cheap-guy mount- the ring it comes with clamped to a YHM riser. haven't gotten around to ordering an AD68 for it. i'd be surprised if it was just the mount, though- its a pretty damn solid setup. and movement between the pieces wouldn't explain the gigantic leap the dot made
the RDS is mounted on my own special cheap-guy mount- the ring it comes with clamped to a YHM riser. haven't gotten around to ordering an AD68 for it. i'd be surprised if it was just the mount, though- its a pretty damn solid setup. and movement between the pieces wouldn't explain the gigantic leap the dot made
Dude, I've been there, it's the mount.
I got rear-ended with my rifle in the trunk. It retained zero, but my SF scout light offset mount was bent. Does that count?
I saw some odd things serving in Infatry Companies for 20 years, but we didn't break many rifle.
The oddest. Soldier couldn't zero. Shot great groups with the rounds touching, good position, ect. After I watched him through three groups I was satisfied it wasn't the troop. I bent down to his rifle on the line to check it expecting something was up with his scope mount. As soon as I picked up up I knew the problem. Some how his barrel was loose. you could shift the thing around in your hand.
I broke the little tube off my PEQ-2 in OEF jumping out of something... the tube caught on what ever it was and took half of the tube with it. The PEQ still worked though. Also a lot of stripped adjusters.
I had a near summer 2001 scrape with CID for filling a Army Suggestion Program note on the M-4 RAS. We had a lot of issues with the lower heat shields coming out. Most likely it was aggressive mantanice vs. material, but I talked with the kind folks at KAC and they repaired about 150 of them for us no cost other then shipping. The Army decided that the hand guards couldn't be repaired and wanted to investigate why I was responsible for all these hand guards breaking:(
Still replacing those 150 hand guards would have cost us about $12,000 at the time. To bad the remaining 500+ never were repaired.
We had several problems early on with the Aimpoint Comp M's (2000-2002). Besides battery issues we had some blow when they were pressed into service on M-249's(hey it seemed like a good ideal). And alot of missing knobs. once we recieved Comp M-2's I was a convert.
The Elcan M-145 Machine gun optic..... the list goes on with that one. If you have a good one you have a good one, but we could never ever get repair parts.
I saw a few M-9 locking blocks fails while I was at West Point for either Beast or what was it the yucks did again?
the bend is at the fastening mechanism. the handguard itself is not bent, not by appearances at least. the rails are completely covered with XTMs- all of which, including those on the impact side, are still completely undamaged. aside from the handguard bend and the blown out RDS, the only evidence of the fall is a slightly dented brass deflector.
the RDS is mounted on my own special cheap-guy mount- the ring it comes with clamped to a YHM riser. haven't gotten around to ordering an AD68 for it. i'd be surprised if it was just the mount, though- its a pretty damn solid setup. and movement between the pieces wouldn't explain the gigantic leap the dot made
Put that Aimpoint in a LaRue mount and I bet you find your optic is fine.
Outlander Systems
06-19-09, 08:46
This will fix the RDS/Zero-holding issue:
http://www.bobroengineering.com/?page=shop/browse&category=opticmounts
That YHM material may seem solid, but it is a softer matierial than what the higher quality manufacturers are using.
-DM-
the mount setup was only temporary to get the weapon fully functional until i could grab a permanent mount, although i admit to using the same setup for a few months on another weapon.
and it's not actually a YHM mount- its just a riser.. a 3 slot chunk of rail. i'll go ahead and order up a real mount and perhaps slam the weapon around a few times before i'll trust this RDS again. it did get closer to zero after i pulled it apart and remounted it, as i recall- evidence that perhaps the RDS isn't ****ed up at all.
neither manufacturer has returned my calls yet.
SWATcop556
06-20-09, 01:01
the mount setup was only temporary to get the weapon fully functional until i could grab a permanent mount, although i admit to using the same setup for a few months on another weapon.
and it's not actually a YHM mount- its just a riser.. a 3 slot chunk of rail. i'll go ahead and order up a real mount and perhaps slam the weapon around a few times before i'll trust this RDS again. it did get closer to zero after i pulled it apart and remounted it, as i recall- evidence that perhaps the RDS isn't ****ed up at all.
neither manufacturer has returned my calls yet.
I've used Aimpoints in Larue mounts for all of my professional career. I have shut my optic in the trunk of patrol cars, slammed it into doorways on entries, banged it into brick walls, and they have all been spot on every time I've shot it with zero shift. I think a quality mount will assist with the optic problems.
I've broken many items over the years and 99% was lower quality shit before I got wise and started buying quality the first time up.
Steelblitz
06-20-09, 01:28
The standard M16A2 handguards are all I remember breaking a couple times while serving in the Corps.
But I almost blew one up one time. I was running for cover when I jumped into a fairly deep muddy ditch, stood up to the berm to fire my weapon, and with my finger starting to pull the trigger back, I just barely noticed this damn orange mud hanging off the flash suppressor. I was about to let lose with a 3 round burst , but thankfully I pulled the weapon down to check the mud hanging off the barrel and I'll be damned if when I jumped into the ditch the muzzle didnt go in first apparently and pack several inches of mud into the barrel. I would have needed at least a barrel there, probably a new left hand also.
Blankwaffe
06-20-09, 02:23
Im a 250 pound ham fisted monkey and about the only thing Ive actually damaged during use of my weapons is some of these crap thin plastic handguards some of the manufacturers are using these days.What the hell happened to the good ole tough as nails thermoset handguards is all I want to know.
Well,thats not completely true,I did have a clamp on FSB's get knocked loose and I accidentally bent one of the fingers on an old style Vortex FH in a fall at a 3-gun.Pretty lucky that day considering...as I said Im a 250# ham fisted monkey.I have since learned how to roll into a fall and protect my weapons better.
Otherwise,like mentioned above the only real mechanical failures Ive had has been related to crap internal parts...again due to some manufacturers selection in the corner cutting process.Otherwise my weapons have been very durable with only the normal dings and scratches from use.
I dont use/like railed handguards or free float tubes.So no issues to report there.
Only optics mounts Ive ever owned for an AR,and thats been just recently,has been the ADM Recon mounts and they seem to be very sound so far.So no issues there.
Otherwise I try to not land on my weapon if I do fall,would actually rather land on my head instead as its cheaper and I dont take it so personal.
I don't prop my weapon against anything...saw a friend lean a rifle against a truck tire and forget about it,then ran over it....lesson learned for me in that regard.
Basically if my weapon is not in my hand its attached to my body or secured in a safe place,case or safe.
Otherwise Im more than pleased with the performance and durability of my AR's.
or maybe a war hammer. :D
heres your warhammer
http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp?CATEGORY=NEW%5FPROD%5FDEMOLITION&TYPE=PRODUCT&PARTNUMBER=55-122&SDesc=Stanley%26%23174%3B+Fubar%26%23174%3B+Forcible+Entry+Tool+%2D+30%22
stanley "fubar," huh? trying to bite off Dead On.
yeah i've had a dead on hammer for about 2 years'ish anyways it's good for LOTS of jobs. well i was looking for a wrecking bar in similar design. stanley is good stuff but yeah dead on shoulda have done it first.
The RDS is fine. it was the gay mount setup i had it on. i swapped out for an old QRP i had buried in a shit-parts box, zero'd, beat on it, it's fine. a word about the QRP- I used to HATE the QRP, for some reason.. but i can't even tell you why, aside from the 3 foot long knob sticking off the side like a boner. i think it's one of those misinformed opinions i picked up in the Army that was just waiting for correction.. i intend to chop off the big knob and replace with something better, but they're good mounts. i have another one that i went ahead and threw on a different weapon, and seeing i've been seeing them for like $50, i don't suppose i need to drop $120 for an m68 mount ever again.
for the record, after billions of calls, Aimpoint never got back to me.
the handguard in question was a DD Lite 7.0 in FDE. DD never called me back, but I eventually got through to Joe.
my intent wasn't to get a replacement rail. my i jus wanted DD's opinion on whether or not their Lite rails should be able to take a 3' drop to concrete. if DD said, "no, that shouldn't happen," I'd take a replacement. If they said, "no, they're not supposed to be slammed into concrete!" i'd just leave it as is... bent-but-functional doesn't bother me, if that's just how it is. Joe seemed to have mixed feelings about it.. he said they do drop tests from 6 or more feet, but he didn't say expressly that they're designed to withstand drops from any particular height. when asked as bluntly as i could put it if this could happen again, he said it's possible. he offered to replace it, I said I'd rather keep the one i had.. then he said, based on my history, that i probably just needed something beefier, and offered to upgrade me to a RIS II M4A1 FSP for free. not really wanting the extra weight, I said i'd think about it. i called John at Rainier, who also offered to exchange my rail for me (DD doesn't produce nor stock FDE lites anymore), but i decided to go ahead and take Joe up on the offer. At the very least, i'd be fun to T&E the RIS II. since this weapon has been out of commission, I've really grown attached to a different carbine, so this one can stand to be sidelined from go-to for a while.
the bolt-up contraption (which is what bent on the last rail) does appear to be a bit beefier.
http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/95/l_a0b0daa0010340b7aafbac05c7cf2b24.jpg
the front ring keeps you from sliding on and off a non-QD VFG without pulling the bottom rail off.. only irritating if you dont notice before assembly.
http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/103/l_e27bccae55fa4ee38b389f3ee50c9b65.jpg
some more pics
http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/66/l_3748763a239f47a78722433c69fb1de4.jpg
http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/85/l_92c586534263441ba3037f95f9ed97fa.jpg
http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/69/l_868c90da479d43e8aff4d07fc119611f.jpg
http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/67/l_0774eba32ac3407196158b2c9113fa99.jpg
the weapon with the old rail
http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/99/l_403c06612e244a1d8cfe305dfabb9cfe.jpg
I'm sure most people have seen the RIS II M4A1s by now, so this isn't really supposed to be any kind of thorough review- I mostly just wanted to out Daniel Defense for the customer-pleasers they are... this rail retails for $130 more than I probably paid for the Lite, and i thought it was pretty cool of Joe/DD to offer the upgrade for free. I'm a long-time DD user, and will continue to be.
heres your warhammer
http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp?CATEGORY=NEW%5FPROD%5FDEMOLITION&TYPE=PRODUCT&PARTNUMBER=55-122&SDesc=Stanley%26%23174%3B+Fubar%26%23174%3B+Forcible+Entry+Tool+%2D+30%22
jeez, I don't know what I'd do with that thing but I want one!
recon by fire
08-24-09, 12:44
I remember in basic training a couple times the drill sgt grabbed a M16A2 from a private's hands and threw the rifle down hard on the concrete or tile floor. I remember thinking, that has got to be hard on those rifles. Our rifles were beat up, but they all functioned great. That gave me much confidence in FN milspec rifles.
jeez, I don't know what I'd do with that thing but I want one!
if you like that, you should check out Dead On tools.. they make some pretty tuff stuff. spendy, but if you're in the industry, well worth it.
BufordTJustice
08-24-09, 16:45
You could always get an AK. ;)
Seriously, I don't wanna be an A$$. It sounds like these things should NOT be breaking. I would continue working to find a solution that works for you. However....I have had my AK dropped from more than 3 feet (5 feet, off the tailgate of a raised F-250) TWICE by dimwitted friends onto concrete and gravel (once each) and nothing broke....including my Russian Kobra red dot or my streamlight TLR-1. I've also had mine tipped-over onto the concrete floor by another dimwitted acquaintance while he was leaning against a wall. While an AK may be more tolerant of abuse, quality AR's, in my experience, certainly have NOT been fragile. I'm confident that you'll find a combo of accessories that works for you, brother. Keep up the search.
After trying Larue and others, I prefer this Aimpoint mount:
http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=82
After trying Larue and others, I prefer this Aimpoint mount:
http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=82
Can't fathom why. You're paying more for less.
i don't think you can make a rational argument that there's anything better than bobro or larue.. MI is gonna be miles behind either.
Ran a chick's M16 over with a 113 once, fortunately the 113 was undamaged.:D
You could always get an AK. ;)
Seriously, I don't wanna be an A$$. It sounds like these things should NOT be breaking. I would continue working to find a solution that works for you. However....I have had my AK dropped from more than 3 feet (5 feet, off the tailgate of a raised F-250) TWICE by dimwitted friends onto concrete and gravel (once each) and nothing broke....including my Russian Kobra red dot or my streamlight TLR-1. I've also had mine tipped-over onto the concrete floor by another dimwitted acquaintance while he was leaning against a wall. While an AK may be more tolerant of abuse, quality AR's, in my experience, certainly have NOT been fragile. I'm confident that you'll find a combo of accessories that works for you, brother. Keep up the search.
Sounds like you need a new group of friends.
BufordTJustice
08-26-09, 20:13
Sounds like you need a new group of friends.
Already working on that.
I start a Central Florida Law Enforcement Academy on Sept 21st. ;) I can't tell you how excited I am.
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