View Full Version : Destroyer USS John McCain Moving To Intercept N. Korean Ship
This should prove interesting. I hope we get it over with already.
U.S. Military Set to Intercept North Korean Ship Suspected of Proliferating Missiles, Nukes
The USS John McCain, a navy destroyer, will intercept the ship Kang Nam as soon as it leaves the vicinity off the coast of China, according to a senior U.S. defense official.
FOXNews.com
Friday, June 19, 2009
The U.S. military is planning to intercept a flagged North Korean ship suspected of proliferating weapons material in violation of a U.N. Security Council resolution passed last Friday, FOX News has learned.
The USS John McCain, a navy destroyer, will intercept the ship Kang Nam as soon as it leaves the vicinity off the coast of China, according to a senior U.S. defense official. The order to inderdict has not been given yet, but the ship is getting into position.
The ship left a port in North Korea Wednesday and appears to be heading toward Singapore, according to a senior U.S. military source. The vessel, which the military has been tracking since its departure, could be carrying weaponry, missile parts or nuclear materials, a violation of U.N. Resolution 1874, which put sanctions in place against Pyongyang.
The USS McCain was involved in an incident with a Chinese sub last Friday - near Subic Bay off the Philippines.
The Chinese sub was shadowing the destroyer when it hit the underwater sonar array that the USS McCain was towing behind it.
That same navy destroyer that was being shadowed by the Chinese is now positioning itself for a possible interdiction of the North Korean vessel.
This is the first suspected "proliferator" that the U.S. and its allies have tracked from North Korea since the United Nations authorized the world's navies to enforce compliance with a variety of U.N. sanctions aimed at punishing North Korea for its recent nuclear test.
The ship is currently along the coast of China and being monitored around-the-clock by air.
The apparent violation raises the question of how the United States and its allies will respond, particularly since the U.N. resolution does not have a lot of teeth to it.
The resolution would not allow the United States to board the ship forcibly. Rather, U.S. military would have to request permission to board -- a request North Korea is unlikely to grant.
North Korea has said that any attempt to board its ships would be viewed as an act of war and promised "100- or 1,000-fold" retaliation if provoked.
The U.S. military may also request that the host country not provide fuel to the ship when it enters its port.
The Kang Nam is known to be a ship that has been involved in proliferation activities in the past -- it is "a repeat offender," according to one military source. The ship was detained in October 2006 by authorities in Hong Kong after the North Koreans tested their first nuclear device and the U.N. imposed a subsequent round of sanctions.
The latest tension follows a Japanese news report that North Korea may fire a long-range ballistic missile toward Hawaii in early July.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Thursday the military is "watching" that situation "very closely," and would have "some concerns" if North Korea launched a missile in the direction of Hawaii. But he expressed confidence in U.S. ability to handle such a launch.
Gates said he's directed the deployment of the Theater High Altitude Area Defense, a mobile missile defense system used for knocking down long- and medium-range missiles.
"The ground-based interceptors are clearly in a position to take action. So, without telegraphing what we will do, I would just say ... I think we are in a good position, should it become necessary, to protect the American territory."
FOX News' Jennifer Griffin and Justin Fishel contributed to this report.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/19/military-set-intercept-north-korean-ship-suspected-proliferatin-missiles-nukes/
parishioner
06-19-09, 12:05
OK, we intercept, ask permission to board, and if they refuse, then what?
CarlosDJackal
06-19-09, 12:13
OK, we intercept, ask permission to board, and if they refuse, then what?
With obama's style: we then apologize to them, write them a blank check for any revenue we may have cost them, and offer them an armed escort to help ensure safe passage to their final destination. :rolleyes:
Gutshot John
06-19-09, 12:14
OK, we intercept, ask permission to board, and if they refuse, then what?
Then they either return to port (problem solved) or they are shadowed until they run out of fuel and have to put into a foreign port where they can be searched according to maritime law.
I believe the goal for now is to harass, deprive them of fuel and prevent them from reaching their destination. Other than that, I have no idea what is going to happen.
Eventually someone will make a move, I can tell you that. We will not likely go through all this just to sit by and watch them unload the suspected materials. North Korea will likely finally be forced to put it's money where it's mouth has so very defiantly been or be deemed a hollow threat.
OK, we intercept, ask permission to board, and if they refuse, then what?
Jam their communications and sink them; claim they hit an iceberg.
Jam their communications and sink them; claim they hit an iceberg.
jam their communications, search cargohold, take the ship to the gulf of aiden and blame it on the somalis
jam their communications, search cargohold, take the ship to the gulf of aiden and blame it on the somalis
O.K. that's friggen funny!
Gotta wonder what will be occurring below the surface when all this takes place.
Sidewinder6
06-19-09, 14:19
I wish our sailors smooth seas and a following wind.
I wish our sailors smooth seas and a following wind.
As do I. Apparently the McCain had a minor incident with a Chinese submarine last week. They are in hostile territory, no doubt. But I still think China will sit it out. I hope so, anyway. Some of their anti-ship missiles are scary mofo's, and there are a lot of good people on that boat.
It seems as though the North Korean ship will be intercepted at some point according to what I am seeing now. Question at this point just seems where, when and how.
My only hope is that our sailors, brothers, sons, fathers and patriots that are onboard come home safe to their families. And if there are women aboard, them too ;)
So here are my thoughts...
After reading and hearing about what materials or weapons they suspect might be on board this ship, my question is this:
What if the ship itself is carrying an atomic weapon?:confused:
With all of the posturing and grousing that North Korea has been doing in the past 6 months, and the various past infractions that this specific ship has been involved in, would it not make strategic sense to actually arm the ship with an active weapon to be used in an offensive role?
Think about it, North Korea has now repeatedly warned/threatened us that if we stop, board or interfere with their ship in "any" way that they will react with nuclear force. Since their missile capabilities are still in infancy and a "minor" threat to us at this point in time, would it not be an effective plan to escalate their agenda by "luring" us into a trap with this known arms running ship as bait?
Logistically speaking it would be a shrewd move on their part because there would be a definite minimum of civilian casualties for the simple fact that the detonation of said weapon would be at sea. With the lack of, or almost complete elimination of civilian casualties it would "Allow" or supply an easy "Out" for the immediate countries in the region to hold back, and react with a cautious and "Measured" response (Read slow and weak) and not directly and immediately confront them and or react with force.
I know that we cannot "Cower" or stand by and let them do as they please (as far as human rights violations and their nuclear build up goes), but it seems that sooner or later they (North Korea) are going to actively try and start a conflict.
Right now it would/could be especially bad for a large and "infamous" incident to occur in that region in light of the financial problems that we are having right now. If this turns into a nuclear incident (theorizing again) it could possibly undermine our already highly devalued currency, and drive it's value into the ground. I could easily see China dumping our currency on the accusation that we "Fumbled" the situation. It would be a decent opportunity for them (and other debit holders of ours) to use an incident such as this to claim a "loss of faith" in the U.S. and it's currency.
At this point in time we are currently "Distracted" with: the riots in Iran, the Israel / Iran potential nuclear conflict, the ongoing and growing $ problem in this country, the seemingly forgotten Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts, the problems with Pakistan and it's ongoing militant problems, etc etc.. It seems sooner rather than later we are going to see something "BIG" happen.
The way I see it is that whatever this "Big" thing is that may or may not be coming up over the horizon it will probably either create the opportunity to disrupt our economy/currency even further or directly be targeted at our economy..
Hopefully North Korea some how crumbles quickly and bloodlessly from within, as for me at least I am endlessly tired of their leadership rattling their tin cup along with their short and rusty saber..
Just my .02
--->APB
Barry The Kenyan will blink first...
Gotta wonder what will be occurring below the surface when all this takes place.
I never though of that, very insightful.
I like it! Then NK can fire a couple of nukes at Somalia and we have another problem solved.
jam their communications, search cargohold, take the ship to the gulf of aiden and blame it on the somalis
the1911fan
06-19-09, 19:14
Hopefully the SS John McCain fares better than the real thing did last November:(
Apparently the McCain had a minor incident with a Chinese submarine last week. They are in hostile territory, no doubt. But I still think China will sit it out. I hope so, anyway. Some of their anti-ship missiles are scary mofo's, and there are a lot of good people on [the USS McCain].
All the more reasons it should be blatantly obvious we are playing with fire and should cease trying to dictate terms to other sovereign nations. We have more troubles WITHIN the USA than then US public has proven capable of dealing with yet we risk a confrontation with China - a nation that holds 25% of our debt... a nation that is allies with Russia. I think that is called "a clue." :rolleyes:
All the more reasons it should be blatantly obvious we are playing with fire and should cease trying to dictate terms to other sovereign nations. We have more troubles WITHIN the USA than then US public has proven capable of dealing with yet we risk a confrontation with China - a nation that holds 25% of our debt... a nation that is allies with Russia. I think that is called "a clue." :rolleyes:
Yes, let's wait around for the first warhead or dirty bomb that originates or is launched from there to go off on US soil before we get off our asses and do anything, right? Let me hear you say it's not possible. And maybe we can stuff cotton in our ears so we need not hear the daily threats made by the incredibly hostile regime.
And let's not stand by our allies such as Japan and South Korea who border the insanity, because you said so. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
You have proven time and time again that you feel the US to be the world's villains. I wish you did not repeatedly pollute this forum with such crap.
There is supposed to be some sort of confirmation that the ship is indeed carrying missiles and missile parts. Just for our buddy Mjolnir, I hope we board it, search it, then re-instate the crew before we then tow it to sea and blow it to fu*king oblivion.
Yes, let's wait around for the first warhead or dirty bomb that originates or is launched from there to go off on US soil before we get off our asses and do anything, right? Let me hear you say it's not possible. And maybe we can stuff cotton in our ears so we need not hear the daily threats made by the incredibly hostile regime.
And let's not stand by our allies such as Japan and South Korea who border the insanity, because you said so. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
You have proven time and time again that you feel the US to be the world's villains. I wish you did not repeatedly pollute this forum with such crap.
There is supposed to be some sort of confirmation that the ship is indeed carrying missiles and missile parts. Just for our buddy Mjolnir, I hope we board it, search it, then re-instate the crew before we then tow it to sea and blow it to fu*king oblivion.
Your understanding is apparently quite limited, dude. "The US" (as you stated) is *not* the badguy - many powerful persons within and around our Gov't sure as Hell are. We've been "quietly invaded" and few seem to notice. We'll be spread thin, piss off our so-called "allies", go bankrupt in the process of "humanitarian-military engagements and then what? Will you still be crying for liberty for the world as your's/our's grow dimmer by the day? We have more pressing needs HERE than 1/2 way around the world. Our borders are not secure, we hear of hacker attacks upon gov't facilities about once every couple of months, oppressive legislation and a Congress that needs impeachment and incarceration - for the past six (actually more) adminstrations. I couldn't care less that North Korea has nukes. They are a protectorate of China. They do something stupid and China bears the brunt. Why? Because they are likely to defend NK militarily if military strikes occur on NK. That should be obvious to you.
Now is the scenario described by you possible or is it probable? Possible? Of course, just about anything is possible. Probable? No. God forbid if something of the sort would happen Iran would be blamed or at least take the military brunt for it unless Obama alters what the last Admin has publicly stated.
I find it foolish to provoke nations who have the capability, if not itching desire, to see us folded - especially when we have NO Civil Defense, NO manufacturing base and NO money. So maybe. just maybe, I prefer to just live my damned life focusing on making THIS PLACE all it can be and let the world live theirs'; you know like our Founding Fathers and a few other Statesmen have advocated. Perhaps I care more than you can imagine...
All the more reasons it should be blatantly obvious we are playing with fire and should cease trying to dictate terms to other sovereign nations. We have more troubles WITHIN the USA than then US public has proven capable of dealing with yet we risk a confrontation with China - a nation that holds 25% of our debt... a nation that is allies with Russia. I think that is called "a clue." :rolleyes:
that would be a start.the current situation is,yes,despite what all the chest thumpers wanna think,is not really in our control.(or that ship woulda been boarded already and situation over).the only country that can exert pressure over north korea is china,and they aren't.i think the chinese are relishing the fact that our country is economically imploding(many nations are talking about switching from the dollar to the euro for currency,not to mention trillions,yes,with a "T" of new debt).our military is so overstretched(to the point that the citizens have to send our soldiers toothbrushes,baby wipes etc.),that we couldn't take on a china backed north korea right now.they know it and our gov't knows it.how did our once great nation get into such a weakened state? the politicians and international bankers robbed us blind as america sat by watching american idol and eating their mcdonalds.its time to wise up america.reralize that if our country was a business,it woulda been run into the ground thru mis-management.we are in dire straits's right now and everyone on the planet seems aware of that fact but the clueless,television watching american population. this is the reason why shitbag nations like north korea,iran are taking advantage of our current sad state.we are in a little bit of a bind right now and us,as a population,have no one to thank but ourselves for electing these thieves and then letting them get away with looting our countries treasure.harsh?maybe.true?definately.dont believe me? shut your television off forever and start reading and researching.then vote in any politician who will restore this country the constitutional republic our founding father gifted us.til then,strap the f*ck on,cause this north korean b.s is just the start.
that would be a start.the current situation is,yes,despite what all the chest thumpers wanna think,is not really in our control.(or that ship woulda been boarded already and situation over).the only country that can exert pressure over north korea is china,and they aren't.i think the chinese are relishing the fact that our country is economically imploding(many nations are talking about switching from the dollar to the euro for currency,not to mention trillions,yes,with a "T" of new debt).our military is so overstretched(to the point that the citizens have to send our soldiers toothbrushes,baby wipes etc.),that we couldn't take on a china backed north korea right now.they know it and our gov't knows it.how did our once great nation get into such a weakened state? the politicians and international bankers robbed us blind as america sat by watching american idol and eating their mcdonalds.its time to wise up america.reralize that if our country was a business,it woulda been run into the ground thru mis-management.we are in dire straits's right now and everyone on the planet seems aware of that fact but the clueless,television watching american population. this is the reason why shitbag nations like north korea,iran are taking advantage of our current sad state.we are in a little bit of a bind right now and us,as a population,have no one to thank but ourselves for electing these thieves and then letting them get away with looting our countries treasure.harsh?maybe.true?definately.dont believe me? shut your television off forever and start reading and researching.then vote in any politician who will restore this country the constitutional republic our founding father gifted us.til then,strap the f*ck on,cause this north korean b.s is just the start.
Your posts are extremely difficult to read due to grammar and punctuation errors.
Your understanding is apparently quite limited, dude.
No it isn't, dude. It is just not convoluted by the nonsense you subscribe to.
You must have a friend here. Your borderline blasphemy goes unchallenged far too often. Guess your overall firearm knowledge gives you a pass.
Global research...:rolleyes:
just re-read my post.grammar and punctuation seems fine.maybe a little complex but hey,we all have different reading abilities.funny never had online post "graded".
guys,my post isn't meant to enflame.nor do i want to start any pissing contests.i want my fellow patriots to just take a moment and think.open their minds.i love my country.served in the marine corps etc.i just cant stand the politicians who have hijacked our country for their own enrichment/benefit which left us all vulnerable.
I wish our sailors smooth seas and a following wind.
For the record, it's "Fair winds and following seas".:)
But there's no doubt that the sentiment is the same.
Your understanding is apparently quite limited, dude. "The US" (as you stated) is *not* the badguy - many powerful persons within and around our Gov't sure as Hell are. We've been "quietly invaded" and few seem to notice. We'll be spread thin, piss off our so-called "allies", go bankrupt in the process of "humanitarian-military engagements and then what? Will you still be crying for liberty for the world as your's/our's grow dimmer by the day? We have more pressing needs HERE than 1/2 way around the world. Our borders are not secure, we hear of hacker attacks upon gov't facilities about once every couple of months, oppressive legislation and a Congress that needs impeachment and incarceration - for the past six (actually more) adminstrations. I couldn't care less that North Korea has nukes. They are a protectorate of China. They do something stupid and China bears the brunt. Why? Because they are likely to defend NK militarily if military strikes occur on NK. That should be obvious to you.
Now is the scenario described by you possible or is it probable? Possible? Of course, just about anything is possible. Probable? No. God forbid if something of the sort would happen Iran would be blamed or at least take the military brunt for it unless Obama alters what the last Admin has publicly stated.
I find it foolish to provoke nations who have the capability, if not itching desire, to see us folded - especially when we have NO Civil Defense, NO manufacturing base and NO money. So maybe. just maybe, I prefer to just live my damned life focusing on making THIS PLACE all it can be and let the world live theirs'; you know like our Founding Fathers and a few other Statesmen have advocated. Perhaps I care more than you can imagine...
spot on dude!i'm glad to see there's another true patriot around.(not sayin you guys aren't!! but we have some deeeep problems and n.k and iran are byproducts!).i love (sarcasm) hearing other people's opinions who get their info from u.s news outlets.these media outlets would have us all belive our streets are paved with gold and everything is fine and dandy.anyone who thinks it is,i suggest you go and read thomas paynes "common sense".or get glenn becks new version for five bucks.next,go research thomas jefferson and so on and so forth.it will take years to read and hopefully absorb all of our founding fathers wisdom.then maybe our country can begin to get back on track. hey guys,ever hear of this guy orzack who obama appointed as one of his main financial advisors for our economy? well,he's an international finance guy who bankrupted russia and iceland before they each expelled his ass from their countries.now he's running our budget! Lord help us all! google this guy! you will be appalled at his resume! this is the type of domestic stuff mjolnir is talking about.not bashing our country but hoping to rescue it from the international thieves while we can!
almost seems like nothing but global domination can save us.. sigh.. guess we better nukes the capitals of all competitive nations.
NK is trying to coax us into conflict. they're doing this because china has their back. if china didn't want war, they'd have put the SMACK down on NK a long time ago. china wants a fight, but they dont want war. so they're setting the stage for a skirmish.
Gotta wonder what will be occurring below the surface when all this takes place indeed
almost seems like nothing but global domination can save us.. sigh.. guess we better nukes the capitals of all competitive nations.
NK is trying to coax us into conflict. they're doing this because china has their back. if china didn't want war, they'd have put the SMACK down on NK a long time ago. china wants a fight, but they dont want war. so they're setting the stage for a skirmish.
indeed
bingo! china coulda put the brakes on this situation right from the getgo.if they wanted to.key word,"IF".dont know what these sneaky s.o.b's have up their sleeve but,i guess,we're all gonna find out soon.
It would be kinda of hard to explain to a half million dead Japanese and South Korean allies why it was so important for the U.S. Navy to sink this ship. We do not operate in a vacuum and there are other considerations beyond what we want to do. North Korea will retaliate for a use of force on our end and are itching for that and we can allow them to do that. They have no concept of what they would unleash but we can't let them goad us into unleashing that tiger. We are playing this right, we will shadow this ship and keep it from unloading in Myanmar. Personally, I think that it will just return to Pyongyang instead if the crew doesn't scuttle it. Our actions will generate a lot of press and it will be noticed in Rangoon and Beijing, as it needs to be. North Korean will be embarrassed and that is enough.
It would be kinda of hard to explain to a half million dead Japanese and South Korean allies why it was so important for the U.S. Navy to sink this ship. We do not operate in a vacuum and there are other considerations beyond what we want to do. North Korea will retaliate for a use of force on our end and are itching for that and we can allow them to do that. They have no concept of what they would unleash but we can't let them goad us into unleashing that tiger. We are playing this right, we will shadow this ship and keep it from unloading in Myanmar. Personally, I think that it will just return to Pyongyang instead if the crew doesn't scuttle it. Our actions will generate a lot of press and it will be noticed in Rangoon and Beijing, as it needs to be. North Korean will be embarrassed and that is enough.
dont know about all that.Korea may be called the "forgotton war" but it was ,as no war is,a cakewalk.the winters there were hellish.not to mention when the chinese decided to go all out.we had nk backed all the way up to the chinese border and boom,china unleashes a tidal wave of humans.
this time round,we have a few sides armed with nukes.not exactly ideal situation for any party involved.
i believe the chinese/n.korean's are being emboldened by their perception we are weakened financially(thats not perception,thats reality!) and,at the moment,militarily spread thin.
if this thing somehow gets out of hand,it could get real ugly real fast. our current wars are for the most part small arms/ied's counter-insurgency warfare.war with north korea and or china will be more of a conventional type.there will be tank on tank engagements whose scale would most likely surpass the first gulf wars scale.massive arty and infantry.you guys get the picture.dont get me wrong,i'm sure that most likely isn't any of the party's involved best intentions(too expensive) to let the situation deteriorate to that level but whose knows what could be the un-intentional spark (especially with that little crazy bastard who might be on his deathbed!who knows what dying wish may be!) that may ignite the situation.very dicey indeed.
at the very least,if china dont leash (n.korea) em up soon,i say we go tell china to go f*ck off with any money we owe them.
NinjaMedic
06-22-09, 00:41
just re-read my post.grammar and punctuation seems fine.maybe a little complex but hey,we all have different reading abilities.funny never had online post "graded".
guys,my post isn't meant to enflame.nor do i want to start any pissing contests.i want my fellow patriots to just take a moment and think.open their minds.i love my country.served in the marine corps etc.i just cant stand the politicians who have hijacked our country for their own enrichment/benefit which left us all vulnerable.
First of all I would like to sincerely thank you for your service to our country, if it was not for persons like yourself we would not be able to have this type of discussion through this medium. I am definitely not a spelling, grammar, or even punctuation expert however I have to agree with Safetyhit. If you chose to employ either your spacebar (located across the bottom center of you keyboard) or you shift keys (2nd row up, on either the left or right edges of the keyboard) your posts would be much easier to digest. You have to understand that anytime someone attempts to read one of your posts they are subconsciously "grading" it. The appearance, structure, spelling, grammar, and punctuation, all contribute to your credibility every bit as much as the actual content of your message.
Further, while I suspect that you are an intelligent, good person in general, when you choose to reply in the manner that you chose it can give people the impression that you are a tool. I am sure that this is not your intent, I think that you have the potential to contribute thoughts and ideas to this forum as much as any of us. Talking down to someone as you did is inappropriate and disrespectful and has no place in a forum as well respected as this one. "Attitude is everything" - Please adjust yours.
Rant over, Moderators if this is inappropriate please delete, just a pet peeve of mine.
Littlelebowski
06-22-09, 06:15
You must have a friend here. Your borderline blasphemy goes unchallenged far too often. Guess your overall firearm knowledge gives you a pass.
So, where did he blaspheme?
First of all I would like to sincerely thank you for your service to our country, if it was not for persons like yourself we would not be able to have this type of discussion through this medium. I am definitely not a spelling, grammar, or even punctuation expert however I have to agree with Safetyhit. If you chose to employ either your spacebar (located across the bottom center of you keyboard) or you shift keys (2nd row up, on either the left or right edges of the keyboard) your posts would be much easier to digest. You have to understand that anytime someone attempts to read one of your posts they are subconsciously "grading" it. The appearance, structure, spelling, grammar, and punctuation, all contribute to your credibility every bit as much as the actual content of your message.
Further, while I suspect that you are an intelligent, good person in general, when you choose to reply in the manner that you chose it can give people the impression that you are a tool. I am sure that this is not your intent, I think that you have the potential to contribute thoughts and ideas to this forum as much as any of us. Talking down to someone as you did is inappropriate and disrespectful and has no place in a forum as well respected as this one. "Attitude is everything" - Please adjust yours.
Rant over, Moderators if this is inappropriate please delete, just a pet peeve of mine.
you should be peeved about the important issues.oh yeah,just re-re-read my post.used space bar.didn't capitalize.oh well.as for adjusting my attitude,its just fine the way it is.if anyone is talking down to anyone,it is you to me,so maybe you should check yours.you suspect i'm intelligent? lmao. the point of my "english" post was a subtle reminder to people who are more interested in my computer manipulation skills than a potential war with north korea,to show some respect to the rest of the poster's and stay on topic.
LL,his apparent blasphemy in this post are facts.a sad state our country is in when the two are easily confused.
No it isn't, dude. It is just not convoluted by the nonsense you subscribe to.
Global Research...:rolleyes:
Nonsense? So says you. TIME MAGAZINE, NEWSWEEK, USA TODAY, THE NEW YORK TIMES, WASHINGTON POST, WALL STREET JOURNAL, FOX NEWS, CNN, MSNBC, C-SPAN... the same b@st@rds who've greatly assisted undermining The Republic and STILL you drink heartily the Kool-Aid... The same companies, btw, that we can all agree lies about just about everything yet you somehow believe that they'll - for reasons that escape me - lead you correctly about international politics... And I have some dry land in the Atchafalaya Basin that has no heat & humidity, mosquitoes, rattlers, copperheads, mocassins alligator gar, alligator snapping turtles or alligators to sell you, too... gold coin only, please.
Ever heard of the Council on Foreign Relations? How about their mouthpiece quarterly magazine, Foreign Affairs? You should read it. But keep your Constitution and Bill of Rights with you as you read the swill contained in it. THIS is where "our" Foreign Policy is discussed with the Ivory Tower eggheads and dribbled through the mainstream media (see above) to "hoodwink" the masses. There are other NGOs (non-governmental organizations) that do the same. They are treasonous. They will be the death of The Republic. And you don't see it. At least not in those terms.
ANY philosophy that needlessly risks the lives of 200 million Americans (non-combattants) and at least as many Chinese, Koreans and Russians (also non-combattants) is downright Satanic. Especially if you think for one second that the "Non-aligned Nations" would not strike ALL NATO nations since the US and UK are members of NATO and would be providing material support if not fighting as well... So we're talking BILLIONS of human lives at stake. That cannot be what you truly wish.
If you have a deathwish please leave those of us whose love of this nation exceeds our love of raw power and weaponry out of it. I'm sure you can find a way to indulge in your fantasy and allow us to try to right the wrongs of this nation and realize the ideology of the Founders if this natoin and God.
Thanks for your time.
Littlelebowski
06-22-09, 07:56
you should be peeved about the important issues.oh yeah,just re-re-read my post.used space bar.didn't capitalize.oh well.as for adjusting my attitude,its just fine the way it is.if anyone is talking down to anyone,it is you to me,so maybe you should check yours.you suspect i'm intelligent? lmao. the point of my "english" post was a subtle reminder to people who are more interested in my computer manipulation skills than a potential war with north korea,to show some respect to the rest of the poster's and stay on topic.
LL,his apparent blasphemy in this post are facts.a sad state our country is in when the two are easily confused.
Come on man, space, bar, capitalize, lose the slang, et cetera.
So, where did he blaspheme?
If you read the majority of his posts in general, you will know what I mean. Always indicating that America is the evil conspirator. And poor Russia, we the bullies are always taking advantage them...:rolleyes:
As far as the blaspheme, let's just say you would rather not hear his version of the events surrounding 9/11.
If you read the majority of his posts in general, you will know what I mean. Always indicating that America is the evil conspirator. And poor Russia, we the bullies are always taking advantage them...:rolleyes:
As far as the blaspheme, let's just say you would rather not hear his version of the events surrounding 9/11.
I think you just committed blasphemy yourself. Try reading my posts for COMPREHENSION. Unless you're a member of the CFR, Trilats, PNAC or some other nefarious organization "you" aren't an evil conspirator. I'm getting the feeling I'm wasting bandwidth commenting with you. You wish for the Black-White, simple explanation and little is so simple.
If your wish is to have enemies you'll have to go elsewhere I am not your enemy.
If your wish is to have enemies you'll have to go elsewhere I am not your enemy.
I do not want to make enemies with you, that despite our regular go-rounds here. Not in the least. I just find it a bit sad and sometimes offensive that someone with your intellect would allow themselves to be so swept up in such anti-American propaganda.
The reason I take issue with you is because I simply will not allow someone to make false or highly exaggerated statements that other less knowing folks may subscribe to as fact. And why should I or anyone be content to allow you to unfoundedly disparage America the way you do? This is a highly intellectual forum for the most part, and we rightfully expect the facts here.
I am not an idiot. I know that the US plays some sneaky games with bad characters for it's own benefit beyond any shadow of a doubt. Regardless, that does not give anyone a license to make up unfounded crap. You and your news sources make up crap.
Want to explain your condensed version of 9/11 to me via PM? Maybe you can convince me what a fool I am and get me off your back. I will be fair and cordial at all times, I assure you.
It would be kinda of hard to explain to a half million dead Japanese and South Korean allies why it was so important for the U.S. Navy to sink this ship. We do not operate in a vacuum and there are other considerations beyond what we want to do.
Absolutely correct. But tell me, where does this failed diplomacy end? And do you think the Japanese and South Koreans are not with us on this? They have the most to lose if N. Korea goes nuclear, do they not?
What does an alliance mean if no one will step up and stand by their ally when another is threatening to wipe them off the face of the earth?
Some people here turn a blind eye to the future to exist peacefully in the present. If one who is paying attention to international developments can't see the ramifications of North Korea possessing nuclear weapons all factors considered, then there is not likely anything I can say to get through their thick skull.
Hopeless. :mad:
I do not want to make enemies with you, that despite our regular go-rounds here. Not in the least. I just find it a bit sad and sometimes offensive that someone with your intellect would allow themselves to be so swept up in such anti-American propaganda.
The reason I take issue with you is because I simply will not allow someone to make false or highly exaggerated statements that other less knowing folks may subscribe to as fact. And why should I or anyone be content to allow you to unfoundedly disparage America the way you do? This is a highly intellectual forum for the most part, and we rightfully expect the facts here.
I am not an idiot. I know that the US plays some sneaky games with bad characters for it's own benefit beyond any shadow of a doubt. Regardless, that does not give anyone a license to make up unfounded crap. You and your news sources make up crap.
Want to explain your condensed version of 9/11 to me via PM? Maybe you can convince me what a fool I am and get me off your back. I will be fair and cordial at all times, I assure you.
Please inform me of your sources of your beliefs because they surely don't resonate with the spirit of the Constitution and Bill of Rights or much of the press outside of the US media. In fact, they sound like rhetoric from Fox News... Your false claims of "disparaging America" is nothing more than a lie. Again, read for comprehension and try again. Please layout the "facts" - as you see them - with supporting links, references, footnotes, etc. since you take issue with anything that does not support your view. We can then sharpshoot these "sources" for nefarious associations, editorial errror, dishonesty, etc., etc., ad nauseum. Simply stating that a source is "in error" or "anti-American" carries no weight with me. Provide evidence.
I never even insinuated that you were an idiot but you've not read some gov't and NGO documents that I have, apparently. You don't seem to be familiar with much outside of the traditional fluff sources. And, again you lie when you accuse me of "making up stuff". YOUR sources are the same pathetic sources that tell us that guns are bad, free trade and NAFTA are good, the economy is swell, big gov't is good, US gun trade arms Mexico and Jamaica and American values are horrible. That would be mainstream media sources. Am I off the mark? I don't think so. At least I'm not wide of the mark.
Uh, what would 9/11 have to do with the current situation with North Korea?? And why would I wish to engage someone in a private conversation with someone who is obviously poorly read and vociferous that anyone who disagrees must not be patriotic?
Get real. You'd have the US on a Don Quixote mission to "improve the world" all the while sinking in the quagmire yet blaming the world and anyone who didn't agree with you as being the problem. If you wish to indulge in a private conversation on Geopolitics you must read Smedly Butler, Frederic Bastiat, Halford Mackinder, Bertrand Russell, Cecil Rhodes, Lord Malthus, Henry Kissinger, Zbigniew Brzezinski and our Founding Fathers. Anything short of that would be a waste of time.
Your demented philosophy of heavy & high handedness in the meddling in others' affairs would not be accepted by you if it were your neighbor medling in your affairs would it? Would it? No, I imagine it would not. Do you think that you are so special that rules and decorum do not apply to you and the US? Perish the thought. Everything has a best used by date. And we have passed that point. Wrecklessness will do nothing but get us killed. Again, if you have a deathwish, bravo. But take it elsewhere. Some of us still love the place enough to make it great again.
Come on man, space, bar, capitalize, lose the slang, et cetera.
hey,if you guys want to turn this in an english class,typing class,why dont you start a thread on such topic's? it seems to be such a gigantic priority of yours and i'm sure it would attract an enormous amount of attention.til then,lets focus on this teeny tiny problem called north korea. oh and "come on man" comment,that isn't slang? i can see our ambassador to china including that "propper" statement during his negotiation's with them.if you are going to spew about etiquette,follow your own advice.
Zbigniew Brzezinski,now there's a real gem of a fellow.can anyone tell me why he is bad for our country or would rather focus your attention on my punctuation? Better yet,i'll mail anyone of these fourth grade English teacher's 500 dollar's if they post a complete bio's on these guy's Brzezinski,Orzack,Axelrod and Emmanuel.tell us all what they all have in common? tell us all how they are ruining our nation. or you can focus your attention on much more important issues that you may have,like my punctuation.
Uh, what would 9/11 have to do with the current situation with North Korea?? And why would I wish to engage someone in a private conversation with someone who is obviously poorly read and vociferous that anyone who disagrees must not be patriotic?
You know exactly what I mean. You would state that it was either an inside job, that we asked for it, or the it was the Israelis. I am certain of it. That would tell most here all they need to know.
If I am wrong, lay it out for us now. Make a fool of me. If not, accept what you are and deal with it.
This thread is about the ship being tailed and hopefully intercepted. You are right that we should stay on topic. I hope we board the ship and show N. Korea they can't spit in the world's face (and this is an international effort, remember) prior to developing nuclear weapons that they will then either use against us and our allies, or sell to someone that will.
With the advent of nuclear weapons and intercontinental missiles, there is no longer the place to hide that you seek. It is what it is, and if we do nothing it will only get worse.
You could also establish a shred of credibility if you or anyone else who thinks we should do nothing can explain why there are no future serious risks involved with doing so.
This is more a case of NK meddling in our affairs and we taking a response.
hey,if you guys want to turn this in an english class,typing class,why dont you start a thread on such topic's? it seems to be such a gigantic priority of yours and i'm sure it would attract an enormous amount of attention.
There is a thread similar to what you mentioned located here https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=32495.
The use of capital letters and a space after a period, that's the little dot at the end of a sentence, would definitely make your postings much easier to read. Obviously since several people are mentioning the fact that it's difficult to read your posts then you might try correcting the problem, instead of trying to defend your apathy.
hey,if you guys want to turn this in an english class,typing class,why dont you start a thread on such topic's? it seems to be such a gigantic priority of yours and i'm sure it would attract an enormous amount of attention.til then,lets focus on this teeny tiny problem called north korea. oh and "come on man" comment,that isn't slang? i can see our ambassador to china including that "propper" statement during his negotiation's with them.if you are going to spew about etiquette,follow your own advice.
Zbigniew Brzezinski,now there's a real gem of a fellow.can anyone tell me why he is bad for our country or would rather focus your attention on my punctuation? Better yet,i'll mail anyone of these fourth grade English teacher's 500 dollar's if they post a complete bio on this guy Brzezinski,Orzack,Axelrod and Emmanuel.tell us all what they all have in common? tell us all how they are ruining our nation. or you can focus your attention on much more important issues that you may have,like my punctuation.
It is easier for you to get your point across and easier for us to comprehend what you are saying if you can do so in a somewhat professional manner. There is no need to get defensive about it, it is simply constructive criticism.
decodeddiesel
06-22-09, 12:59
Fair winds and following seas to the brave sailors on board the USS John McCain. Let us hope China keeps their economic interests in mind and does not intervene in the operation.
That being said, I am glad I checked in on this thread. More and more fodder for my M4C ignore list.
blah, blah, blah... Make a fool of me. If not, accept what you are and deal with it.
Odd words, bro. Also very self-revealing... but you seem to "deal with yourself" very well...:rolleyes: So I don't know what gives you the impression that I would have a problem being a Patriot? It's a lot more than I could ever hope to call someone who parrots the party line from the mainstream media.
... This thread is about the ship being tailed and hopefully intercepted. You are right that we should stay on topic. I hope we board the ship and show N. Korea they can't spit in the world's face (and this is an international effort, remember) prior to developing nuclear weapons that they will then either use against us and our allies, or sell to someone that will.
With the advent of nuclear weapons and intercontinental missiles, there is no longer the place to hide that you seek. It is what it is, and if we do nothing it will only get worse.
You know, I could not care less about the "international community" on this one. I don't care if North Korea has nuclear weapons. They "already do" because China has their back. Only blind fools would not know this and you act as if you don't know this. And please remind me when we should be following the edicts of the UN... Who gives a crap about what the UN "declares"? MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. WE'RE BANKRUPT WITH MASSIVE UNEMPLOYMENT, NO MANUFACTURING, NO CONTROL OVER OUR BORDERS A CORRUPT CONGRESS and you're concerned about what, exactly? The possibility of nuclear missiles being shipped to Myannar - brought to you by the same indelible individuals who told us WMDs were in Iraq. And portable Biological or Chemical Labs in Iraq. Bullshit. How many more times must we waste our national treasure (our citizens' blood, precious armament and CREDIT) at the whim of those who have an agenda counter to the people of the USA?
As stated before CHINA is the key. Again, CHINA IS THE KEY. Got it? This can all go away by ignoring NK and dealing directly with Chinese leadership. I know that would be a blow to your ego since you would rather use force and risk it all but you'll survive it. Wiser heads shall prevail as no sane man would propose sinking that ship...
... You could also establish a shred of credibility if you or anyone else who thinks we should do nothing can explain why there are no future serious risks involved with doing so.
"Establish a shred of credibility". Surely you jest. Save the "establish a shred of credibility" diatribe - as if you're someone to even try to establish creds with anyway. I've made my points more than crystal clear yet you still apparently cannot deduce what was stated and you avoid addressing the core of what has been previously stated by myself and others. So I'll just leave you to your delusions and pray that we have wiser heads than yours calling the shots in the USA.
Again, if you wish to have a discussion please give me a bio on the individuals I've mentioned. You cannot. I know it and you know it. With your thinking I guess after we blast NK and Iran and Myannar and Somalia (again) everything will be hunky dory, eh, safetyhit. Yeah, when pigs fly!
Mo_Zam_Beek
06-22-09, 14:55
Gotta admit there are parts of Barry's foreign policy that I like - like not coming out of the gate with a lot of demands and tough talk, and showing a willingness to consider a back seat to others in the region or involved in the problem.
That said, that all only works if the goal is same as it always has been; and it is just a different form of pulling the strings.
NK - case in point: Fiddle ****ing around and 'encouraging' China to get off its ass and contain NK - demonstrates our willingness to make room at the big boy table for China. However since it is a calculated risk that China won't do jack shit, it ultimately reminds the rest of the big boy table that even though China may own the USA, they are not to be trusted to not steal the silverware. Remember most of the other table guests are socialist leaning societies that have gone so far as to give up bits of sovereignty in an effort to ensure peace. If China eschews responsibility and the situation continues to erode, it will be a positive for America. Conversely, if China steps up we can say we 'engaged' the Chinese and when it turns to shit, b/c it will, we can lay that at their feet too.
Secondly, b/c China most likely won't get off the stick and b/c SK and Japan feel deeply threatened by the nuclear aggression of NK - we should be leveraging this opportunity to plant nukes and other sophisticated hardware in both SK and Japan - pointed at China.
NK isn't looking to hold a region wide bar_b_que, they are looking for a way to raise cash and feed people. If everyone keeps their cool on this deal, we will get a good look at NK's current capabilities, secure bonds in the region, maintain a leadership role at the big boy table, possibly embarrass the Chinese, and maybe - just maybe, be able to place some nukes up the ass of the Chinese as well. No one is gonna get hurt by riding this out for a few months if it is done right. The rest of this is drama for the theater crowd.
Again, if the goal is the same we don't always have to throw heat from the mound. Some off speed stuff and working the corners of the plate can be just as effective, and yet give the illusion that we are willing to let others play a role.
I am not convinced at this point however that the foreign policy hummed by Barry and Do_Ops is in the same key as our traditional playbook.
Good luck
As stated before CHINA is the key. Again, CHINA IS THE KEY. Got it?
Who gives a shit? Thank God this country does not allow China to dictate our foreign policy or determine who we can defend ourselves and our interests against. If they sit and do nothing, then they are complacent and should be treated as such.
Silence can be deafening, unless maybe coerced upon the people by an oppressive government. What is happening in Iran clearly tells you what people can do when they have the guts and will to stand up for whats right. Many in China have relatives held captive or enslaved in N. Korea, but where are the protests? Oh wait, Tienanmen Square shows what they would be up against, doesn't it?
They are too oppressed to help because their own government has proven that they will kill them in mass if they dissent. But you would allow that same government to dictate our actions?
China is the key to shit and you are beyond ridiculous.
Too embarrassed to give your take on 9/11 and make me look like the foolish blowhard you describe me as? I am just waiting to be discredited. My head is on the chopping block, you may swing when ready.
:rolleyes:
NK isn't looking to hold a region wide bar_b_que, they are looking for a way to raise cash and feed people. If everyone keeps their cool on this deal, we will get a good look at NK's current capabilities, secure bonds in the region, maintain a leadership role at the big boy table, possibly embarrass the Chinese, and maybe - just maybe, be able to place some nukes up the ass of the Chinese as well. No one is gonna get hurt by riding this out for a few months if it is done right. The rest of this is drama for the theater crowd.
So you are stating that the best way that Kim Jong Il and his group can come up with to feed their people is by making dire threats and doing the exact opposite of everything anyone asks them to do in the international community? This while they oppress the absolute living shit out of their populace on an unparalleled basis? Three generations of families sentenced to prison for one persons "crime"? Do you really, really think they really are concerned about their folks hunger issues, or just maintaining control at all costs. I say the latter.
I agree that it may not hurt to ride this out, if we do so without looking like paper tigers. Still, the contents of that ship will be subject to search at some point, and then it goes where it goes.
So you are stating that the best way that Kim Jong Il and his group can come up with to feed their people is by making dire threats and doing the exact opposite of everything anyone asks them to do in the international community? This while they oppress the absolute living shit out of their populace on an unparalleled basis? Three generations of families sentenced to prison for one persons "crime"? Do you really, really think they really are concerned about their folks hunger issues, or just maintaining control at all costs. I say the latter.
It is really one and the same. They have to feed their people to a certain extent. If they don't then they risk losing control. So, yes, this is how they extort international help.
It is really one and the same. They have to feed their people to a certain extent. If they don't then they risk losing control. So, yes, this is how they extort international help.
Interesting, but I believe also incorrect.
Look at it this way. A tired, hungry, defenseless population is a lot easier to control than a healthy, motivated, armed one. Seems to be working pretty well now, and I don't imagine living conditions there being any worse than they are as we speak. Do you? I think they want them weak and do their best to keep them that way.
Just think your argument could swing both ways, that's all.
Interesting, but I believe also incorrect.
Look at it this way. A tired, hungry, defenseless population is a lot easier to control than a healthy, motivated, armed one. Seems to be working pretty well now, and I don't imagine living conditions there being any worse than they are as we speak. Do you? I think they want them weak and do their best to keep them that way.
Just think your argument could swing both ways, that's all.
You are missing one important thing. They are beyond tired and hungry now. Getting international help to feed them only gets them to that point. We are not talking about fat and happy NKs. We are talking about trying to avoid a disaster of hunger. When people get so hungry (on a large scale) that they don't care any more, they will strike back.
You are missing one important thing. They are beyond tired and hungry now. Getting international help to feed them only gets them to that point. We are not talking about fat and happy NKs. We are talking about trying to avoid a disaster of hunger. When people get so hungry (on a large scale) that they don't care any more, they will strike back.
Good points, I suppose you may be right. Yet I personally remain unconvinced. They have already been pushed so very far and abused literally beyond our comprehension. Just kind of hard to imagine that it would take something more to motivate them.
The military eats first and the populace second if the SHTF, I'll guarantee you that. With no weapons, little technology and minimal food, I don't see an effective group against a well armed modern military no matter how determined they might finally become. The military themselves would need to overthrow, that is the only real option IMHO.
And they know that if somehow they fail, all their relatives will pay dearly, and that their grandchildren will be born in jail and do hard labor as a result of their defeat. That is a bigtime rough pill to swallow.
Mo_Zam_Beek
06-22-09, 16:37
So you are stating that the best way that Kim Jong Il and his group can come up with to feed their people is by making dire threats and doing the exact opposite of everything anyone asks them to do in the international community? This while they oppress the absolute living shit out of their populace on an unparalleled basis? Three generations of families sentenced to prison for one persons "crime"? Do you really, really think they really are concerned about their folks hunger issues, or just maintaining control at all costs. I say the latter.
I agree that it may not hurt to ride this out, if we do so without looking like paper tigers. Still, the contents of that ship will be subject to search at some point, and then it goes where it goes.
Since you're really asking me I really wonder what you know about NK? Tell me what other options (industry) they have to raise cash?
Tell me that there isn't a coincidence between the spring and summer timing and trying to finalize and receive the benefits of concessions in time for winter.
About control? Well.....yeah, that's obvious. It always has been and always will be - and things will get even whackier if and when it transfers to the next generation.
All this stuff about oppression - that is getting emotion mixed into the deal. Let's be really frank for a minute - it is good that we as human beings can have empathy for the suffering in a foreign land. However it matters not in terms of the goals and objectives in matters between Nation States, unless it can be used to embarrass or drive a wedge. Strip the emotion out of the deal - what are the objectives for the US? Concern for the NK people? - of course not. Topple the NK government, (safely) poke China, strengthen bonds of other regional Nation States, and increase US security. That is it - that is all. Anything else is a superfluous argument designed to gain advantage or to be traded away for a larger concession.
Drive around behind this boat? It calls attention to the fact that China (NK's handler) isn't doing their job, shows the regional players that we care, stifles the efforts of the NK government.
This is all for show. Time is on our side.
Good luck
ETA - this assumes that when Barry sits down behind the drum set he stays in time
All this stuff about oppression - that is getting emotion mixed into the deal. Let's be really frank for a minute - it is good that we as human beings can have empathy for the suffering in a foreign land. However it matters not in terms of the goals and objectives in matters between Nation States, unless it can be used to embarrass or drive a wedge.
You make a lot of good points as well. But you are off regarding the oppression aspect if referring to me. I mentioned that while analyzing the population's ability to rise-up effectively, not to say we should invade because it is the right thing to do morally.
thopkins22
06-22-09, 16:59
As do I. Apparently the McCain had a minor incident with a Chinese submarine last week. They are in hostile territory, no doubt. But I still think China will sit it out. I hope so, anyway. Some of their anti-ship missiles are scary mofo's, and there are a lot of good people on that boat.
I realize the Chinese aren't our exactly our friends, but I believe that they are our best friends where NK is concerned.
Who gives a shit?
Yep, that's what I'm beginning thinking about you...
China is the key to shit and you are beyond ridiculous.
Too embarrassed to give your take on 9/11 and make me look like the foolish blowhard you describe me as? I am just waiting to be discredited. My head is on the chopping block, you may swing when ready.
Yes, and your geopolitical analysis is pure merde as evidenced by your own typed words, mon ami which proves that your ideas are asinine.
Safetyhit, you've proven time and time again for all the web to read with rhetorical chest thumping, emotional hijinks, arrogance & puerile ad hominems such that I don't have to 'try' to "discredit" you. You manage to accomplish that small feat all by your lonesome. And you most certainly require my input to "make you "look like the foolish blowhard".
No serious student of Geopolitics- and I do mean NONE - would be totally ignorant and dismissive of those geopoliticians who came before them and have shaped policy in the West for over 100 years. Your opinions will forever remain just opinions unless you can correlate them with historical relevance of those who are giants in that arena. I'm sure you'll beg to differ and that's just cool with me as I'm a firm believer of Free Will.
Trying to discuss something as complicated as geopolitics with you seems to be taking a turn towards a huge waste of intellect, time and bandwidth. I am disappointed that it has become so. Perhaps things will change in the near future and I do hope so. Until that time I'll allow you the freedom to joust with yourself or have monologues with those who happen to share your opinions/beliefs. You should enjoy that immensely I suppose as your beliefs and ego can remain unchallenged by facts that seem to escape your intellect so readily. Again, try reading some of the Giants of the Field and I'd love to discuss current events through their filters as opposed to managed public opinion, political spin, disinformation and misinformation. That's not to say that all I believe or espouse will be correct but I can categorically state that my espoused opinions have relevancy and can be traced back over one hundred years not "just an administration or four." In my humble opinion there's not a copper flashed Zinc coin's (i.e., a penny) worth of difference between a man who cannot read and one that chooses not to read. And no amount of chest thumping will change that.
For the rest of us - whomever "we" may or may not be - will continue to EDUCATE OURSELVES AND CHOOSE TO THINK FOR OURSELVES as opposed to following the herd due to political partisanship, peer pressure , fear, the desire to "belong", "lead" or whatever the motivations may be. I really could not care less what they are.
Take care.
Mo_Zam_Beek
06-22-09, 17:11
You make a lot of good points as well. But you are off regarding the oppression aspect if referring to me. I mentioned that while analyzing the population's ability to rise-up effectively, not to say we should invade because it is the right thing to do morally.
You are correct - I misunderstood.
Good luck
All this stuff about oppression - that is getting emotion mixed into the deal. Let's be really frank for a minute - it is good that we as human beings can have empathy for the suffering in a foreign land. However it matters not in terms of the goals and objectives in matters between Nation States, unless it can be used to embarrass or drive a wedge. Strip the emotion out of the deal - what are the objectives for the US? Concern for the NK people? - of course not. Topple the NK government, (safely) poke China, strengthen bonds of other regional Nation States, and increase US security. That is it - that is all. Anything else is a superfluous argument designed to gain advantage or to be traded away for a larger concession.
Drive around behind this boat? It calls attention to the fact that China (NK's handler) isn't doing their job, shows the regional players that we care, stifles the efforts of the NK government.
This is all for show. Time is on our side.
Good luck
ETA - this assumes that when Barry sits down behind the drum set he stays in time
Agreed. Good logical thinking and very well put.
Going4Broke
06-22-09, 17:37
I just wish they would all shut the hell up and quit saying what we are planning and what we are going to do when it comes to military activity.
Excuse me Mr. North Korea, here is what we are planning on doing. Just wanted to let you know so it is more fair and we don't surprise you.:mad:
I wonder if Hu Jintao and Kim Jong-Il have read the same foreign policy experts of the last 100 years?
I wonder if Hu Jintao and Kim Jong-Il have read the same foreign policy experts of the last 100 years?
Of course they have. The Chinese are masters at long-term planning. Same with the Russians. Same with the British Elite. The American public? Not so much. :p The Global Elite (of all nations) by default are also very good planners and they'd have to be to have done the damage they've inflicted without many shots being fired (in developed nations, anyway).
I have stored somewhere, Vladimir Putin referencing Brzezinski by name and not at all in glowing terms. I believe this was around/during the Georgian conflict last summer. So, yes, they are aware. The Europeans are better educated in such matters as are the Chinese from the hundreds I've worked with over the past 16.5 years. It's amazing. And sad at the same time.
"But tell me, where does this failed diplomacy end?" I wish I could say but I am not quite ready to called it failed, at least not yet. I am sure that although "Dear Leader" is completely insane that there are some reasonable Generals waiting in the wings to step in once he is gone. It is for those reasonable few, waiting in the wings, that our actions have to be meted out with deliberateness and care. We have to show them the right way to do things, they have no experience in international affairs themselves, our example and that of our friends in South Korea and Japan are all that they know. Does that mean we have to kowtow to each provocation? By all means no but we do have to act rationally. Provoking a missile launch at Tokyo or an artillery barrage at Seoul would erode our relationships with those two countries and only further embolden the nutcase in Pyongyang and his fair weather friends in Beijing. Embarrassing him in front of his people and his generals will pay off eventually.
If there are nuclear weapons on the boat and IF China wanted them not to be found/create an incident they would have just let the Koreans bring the cargo over their border on a truck and then load it in a Chinese flagged ship later. Wallah, crisis averted.
It is brinksmanship all around and I hope we continue to monitor the situation but NOT board the ship or do anything that would lead to a 2nd Korean war. Not worth it, no money to pay for it.
Of course they have. The Chinese are masters at long-term planning. Same with the Russians. Same with the British Elite. The American public? Not so much. :p
This statement is a perfect example of your disdain for America.
You clearly either infer that Chinese, Russian and "British Elite" are better than the American populace in this regard. Either that, or you ignore the American "elite" by choice because of your disregard for them.
We just suck no matter what, don't we? :rolleyes:
If this country were ever invaded by a superior force, you would be the first collaborator in your neighborhood waiting to serve them. Absolutely no doubt about it.
Can you leave the thread alone now before it is is canned?
This statement is a perfect example of your disdain for America.
You clearly either infer that Chinese, Russian and "British Elite" are better than the American populace in this regard. Either that, or you ignore the American "elite" by choice because of your disregard for them.
We just suck no matter what, don't we? :rolleyes:
If this country were ever invaded by a superior force, you would be the first collaborator in your neighborhood waiting to serve them. Absolutely no doubt about it.
Can you leave the thread alone now before it is is canned?
I don't know what you have against the guy but it seems pretty clear that he was making a comparison between the average uninformed american (of which there are plenty just go sit in McDonalds for an hour and try to guess how many folks there have even heard of the CFR) and the elite RULERS of China, G.B. and Russia. He did not say the elite Chinese people. They are no better informed and probably even worse. The USA is full of great people and many like yourself, are smart. I love America but we are heading down a rabbit hole with this deficit, lack of border control, allowing free trade to destroy our industrial base and playing world police. It is not working. USA first!
Calling his patriotism into question and saying he would be a collaborator is over the line. Would you take kindly if he said you would be a likely prospect to join the USA brownshirts coalition? Sometimes it seems that way. Disagreeing does not give you the right to silence him. Respect and listen. I have learned some things from you and him. No one is always right and gathering information is valuable even if you choose not to believe it. Dissent is the FOUNDATION of the USA.
Good luck and good night.
Respect and listen.
I have been listening. With all due respect, apparently you haven't been.
I suggest you refer to his past writings before you judge my accusations of him any further.
I agree with you that some of his idea's are probably not correct but that does not make me want to silence his opinions. Some of what he says probably is correct too and either way, it doesn't bother me to have him (or you or anyone else) say what they think even if it challenges my personal feelings. I think the United States is great in most ways but the founding fathers wanted us to question authority to make it accountable to the people. I don't believe everything Obama says is right and I thought GWB was wrong on many issues too. I think our kid's are getting screwed by both sides.
This statement is a perfect example of your disdain for America.
You clearly either infer that Chinese, Russian and "British Elite" are better than the American populace in this regard. Either that, or you ignore the American "elite" by choice because of your disregard for them.
We just suck no matter what, don't we? :rolleyes:
If this country were ever invaded by a superior force, you would be the first collaborator in your neighborhood waiting to serve them. Absolutely no doubt about it.
Can you leave the thread alone now before it is is canned?
Point Responses
You have failed to read for comprehension.
You have failed to read for comprehension, take II. Rider got it correct...
Speaking for yourself, are you now?
Wild speculation at best. Self-gratification does not truth make...
You can quietly go away and let this thread take it's course can you not?
You honestly believe you can question an American's patriotism and then expect them to walk away... :rolleyes: Are you, too, not free to leave the thread alone? What kind of approach is that? I didn't think I was back in 1977.
P.S.
Still waiting for that biography of the Father of Geopolitics... and/or any of his adherents. Wikipedia does not count.
I agree with you that some of his idea's are probably not correct but that does not make me want to silence his opinions.
I don't want to silence his opinions either, just his misrepresentation of facts. That should matter, should it not?
Maybe you are right in a bigger sense, though. Few seem to take issue with him anyway, so why should I even continue on doing so? Either most here don't get what he is saying or they simply don't care.
Whatever the case, it is what it is. Have at it.
I agree with you that some of his idea's are probably not correct but that does not make me want to silence his opinions. Some of what he says probably is correct too and either way, it doesn't bother me to have him (or you or anyone else) say what they think even if it challenges my personal feelings. I think the United States is great in most ways but the founding fathers wanted us to question authority to make it accountable to the people. I don't believe everything Obama says is right and I thought GWB was wrong on many issues too. I think our kid's are getting screwed by both sides.
Great approach, Rider. I find it odd where AN AMERICAN wishes to smother dissenting opinion - especially one backed with historical fact and relevancy. That, in and of itself, is anathema to what this nation is supposed to be all about. If the attitude of suppression of dissent existed as strongly as he is aggressive with his approach we'd be speaking with a Brit accent. Thank God for the "rascally colonial upstarts" who dared question the "representative of God Himself" sitting upon the throne back in London and his henchmen in The City.
Strange days...
Of course they have. The Chinese are masters at long-term planning. Same with the Russians. Same with the British Elite. The American public? Not so much. :p The Global Elite (of all nations) by default are also very good planners and they'd have to be to have done the damage they've inflicted without many shots being fired (in developed nations, anyway).
I have stored somewhere, Vladimir Putin referencing Brzezinski by name and not at all in glowing terms. I believe this was around/during the Georgian conflict last summer. So, yes, they are aware. The Europeans are better educated in such matters as are the Chinese from the hundreds I've worked with over the past 16.5 years. It's amazing. And sad at the same time.
Long term planning is not the same as having read the same books -- playing from the same playbook
"Long term planning is not the same as having read the same books -- playing from the same playbook."
Yes, they [Russia, China] are intimately familiar with Geopolitical Theory of Mackinder, etc., especially since it involves their territory of influence - Central Asia. Mackinder, the Father of Geopolitics, was British so the UK is squared away though initially his viewpoints were dismissed.
Like I said I do have purported quotes from Putin and there are two books by Zhirinovsky that indicate they are well aware.
"Our guys" [CFR members, some Think Tanks and key personnel inside each Admin] are well aware of Mackinder's philosophy and from what I've read about "The Heartland" Theory of Mackinder and US Policy on Central Asia these guys ARE pursuing similar ends. Zbiggy seems to think so, too. Interestlingly, Brzezinski was peeved at the Bush Admin only for allowing the worst case scenario - an alliance between Russia, China and Iran which he felt could lead to a direct conflict between NATO and "the new alliance". Did the planners in Bush's Admin erroneously believe that we could make 'cake' of Afghanistan and Iran - and Iran with little or no repercussions? I have my doubts.
I'd venture to guess that Obama 'had to promise' he wouldn't stray very far - if any at all - from the same Foreign Policy. Why? Because Zbiggy and his son were big supporters of Obama... and his cabinet is full of "monsters" who SHARE similar views. We need REAL, SUBSTANTIVE CHANGE.
For those interested google "The Great Game" which is the battle for India by Russia, Great Britain and eventually Germany, too, which was the initial battle for Eurasia. An author by the name of Hopkirk has an excellent, engaging book by that title.
Nine personal friends (3 British co-workers, 2 Aussie co-workers, 1 Chinese co-worker and one Ukrainian friend) introduced me to Mackinder over a period of 6 months. This was back in 1998/99. Later, two (bourgeois, i.e., Upper Middle Class) French friends of mine were intimately familiar with the concepts and I had read enough to engage them in conversations about what they believed was going on. They all found it odd that we weren't taught about this in our high school history classes...
I can tell you this, it's an eye-opening read and immensely enjoyable study, if you're in to that sort of thing.
Gutshot John
06-23-09, 19:51
they simply don't care.
Winner!!!
That's what the ignore feature is for, using it will probably decrease your annoyance.
It is brinksmanship and in terms of long-term planning, I doubt very seriously NK is a master of it. In fact they seem to go for the short-term gain quite often at their long-term expense.
The Chinese will continue to run cover for NK so long as we give them every incentive to do so.
We don't have to go to war in Korea...start by offering Nuclear Weapons and ABM technology to Japan.
What happened to the North Korean ship? Did it disappear off the face of the earth? Maybe taking the long route around? :confused:
Not a peep in the press for days, maybe even a week, even as the last reports were that an interception was pending anytime. Does this seem strange or is it just me?
Duh, Jacko died!
Sorry I had to, but seriously now. I havent heard anything about it since Thursday.
-Jesse
that's right... jacko did die... hmm.......... how convenient.
;)
JUNE 30, 2009
When will the U.S. recognize that Pyongyang renounced the armistice?
By GORDON G. CHANG From today's Wall Street Journal Asia.
At this moment the Kang Nam, a North Korea tramp freighter, is on the high seas tailed by a team of American destroyers and submarines and watched by reconnaissance satellites and aircraft. On board, its cargo could be plutonium pellets, missile parts or semi-ripe melons. In any event, Washington wants to know what is in the rusty ship's hold.
Why the interest in this particular vessel? The Kang Nam is a "repeat offender" and known to carry "proliferation materials." As an unnamed American official told Fox News this month, "This ship is presumed to be carrying something illicit given its past history." United Nations Security Council Resolution 1874, unanimously passed on June 12, broadened the concept of illicit cargoes as far as North Korea is concerned. It prohibits Pyongyang from selling arms, even handguns.
The U.S. has a legal right to board North Korean ship Kang Nam, which is suspected of carrying illicit weapons.
The Security Council, while banning Pyongyang's export of weapons, has not given U.N. member states the means of enforcing the new restrictions. Resolution 1874 calls upon countries to inspect North Korean cargoes on the high seas -- but only "with the consent of the flag State," in this case North Korea. Should Pyongyang refuse -- as it most certainly would -- a member state can, within the terms of the resolution, direct a vessel to "an appropriate and convenient port" for inspection by local officials. Should Pyongyang refuse to divert the ship, the resolution contemplates the filing of a report to a U.N. committee.
It looks as if Washington will file such a report soon. Last week, Washington promised the Chinese to abide by the restraints imposed by Resolution 1874. This means, in all probability, that the United States will be reduced to watching the Kang Nam unload an illegal cargo at its intended destination.
Yet Washington does not have to adopt such a feeble approach. The North Koreans have, inadvertently, given the U.S. a way to escape from the restrictions of the new Security Council measure. On May 27, the Korean People's Army issued a statement declaring that it "will not be bound" by the armistice that ended fighting in the Korean War. This was at least the third time Pyongyang has disavowed the interim agreement that halted hostilities in 1953. Previous renunciations were announced in 2003 and 2006.
The U.N. Command, a signatory to the armistice, shrugged off Pyongyang's belligerent statement. "The armistice remains in force and is binding on all signatories, including North Korea," it said immediately after the renunciation, referring to the document's termination provisions. That may be the politically correct thing to say, but an armistice as a legal matter cannot remain in existence after one of its parties, a sovereign state, announces its end. Today, whether we like it or not, there is no armistice.
Furthermore, there has never been a peace treaty formally ending the Korean War. This means the U.S., a combatant in the conflict, as leader of the U.N. Command, is free to use force against Pyongyang. On legal grounds, the U.S. Navy therefore has every right to seize the Kang Nam, treat the crew as prisoners of war and confiscate its cargo, even if the ship is carrying nothing more dangerous than melons. Because the Navy has the right to torpedo the vessel, which proudly flies the flag of another combatant in the war, it of course has the right to board her.
But does America have the will to do so? "Rules must be binding. Violations must be punished. Words must mean something," President Barack Obama, reacting to North Korea's test of a long-range missile, said in the first week of April. Unfortunately, the President's words have apparently meant little because Kim Jong Il's belligerent state has, since that time, detonated a nuclear device, handed out harsh sentences to two American reporters, and announced the resumption of plutonium production. North Korea has threatened nuclear war several times in recent days and this month sent one of its patrol boats into South Korean waters. American envoys, in response, have issued stern warnings, participated in meetings in the region, and engaged in high-level diplomacy in the corridors of the U.N. None of this, however, has led to the enforcement of rules or the punishment of the North Korean regime.
North Korea's words, in contrast, have meant something. They have, as noted, ended the armistice. Of course, no one is arguing that the nations participating in the U.N. Command resume a full-scale land war in Asia. Yet recognizing the end of the temporary truce would allow the U.S. to use more effective measures to stop North Korean proliferation of missile and nuclear technologies. The Bush administration sometimes got around to warning Kim Jong Il about selling dangerous technologies but never did anything about it.
Instead, President Bush outsourced the problem to the U.N. In October 2006, in response to the North's first nuclear detonation, the Security Council passed a resolution aimed at halting North Korean proliferation. Unfortunately, Beijing refused to implement the new rules, calling the measures unacceptable, even after voting in favor of them. Since then, more evidence has come to light of North Korea's transfer of nuclear weapons technology to Iran and Syria.
The lesson of the last few years is that the U.N. is not capable of stopping North Korean proliferation. No nation can stop it except the U.S. Of course, ending North Korea's sales of dangerous technologies to hostile regimes will anger Pyongyang. This month, for instance, the North said that interception of the Kang Nam would constitute an "act of war."
Yet, as much as the international community would like to avoid a confrontation, the world cannot let Kim Jong Il continue to proliferate weapons. Moreover, it is unlikely that he will carry through on his blustery threats. The North Koreans did not in fact start a war when, at America's request, Spain's special forces intercepted an unflagged North Korean freighter carrying Scud missiles bound for Yemen in December 2002. Even though the Spanish risked their lives to board the vessel, Washington soon asked Madrid to release it. At the time, the Bush administration explained there was no legal justification to seize the missiles.
Now, the Obama administration has no such excuse. There is definitely a legal justification to seize the Kang Nam. North Korea, after all, has resumed the Korean War.
Mr. Chang is the author of "Nuclear Showdown: North Korea Takes On the World" (Random House, 2006).
JUNE 30, 2009
When will the U.S. recognize that Pyongyang renounced the armistice?
By GORDON G. CHANG From today's Wall Street Journal Asia.
At this moment the Kang Nam, a North Korea tramp freighter, is on the high seas tailed by a team of American destroyers and submarines and watched by reconnaissance satellites and aircraft...
Well, good to know someone's paying attention. Even with all the ridiculous hype over Jackson's death.
When I was 14, I crossed the Atlantic in 17 days on a 42ft sailboat my stepfather owned (don't think I would do it again at 40). This with minimal winds and sometimes glass-like seas mid ocean, causing us to sit still some days for hours. We had an engine but had to save the gas for emergencies and docking.
Point is, how friggin long will it take this ship to get where it needs to go, let alone refuel? They must be dicking around somehow.
I think the Messiah (I didn't coin the term but do find the way many people refer to him and think of him quite amusing) and his posse are hoping that this will fade from the headlines so they can do nothing about it, a play taken straight from the GB43 North Korea playbook. Diplomacy at its finest.
I think the Messiah (I didn't coin the term but do find the way many people refer to him and think of him quite amusing) and his posse are hoping that this will fade from the headlines so they can do nothing about it, a play taken straight from the GB43 North Korea playbook. Diplomacy at its finest.
Hard to imagine after all that yip-yap and the military intervention they would just let it fade into oblivion. At some point at least FOX will question the outcome.
At least I hope so.
Source: Suspected NKorean weapons ship changes course after days under eye of US Navy
By PAULINE JELINEK , Associated Press
Last update: June 30, 2009 - 8:11 PM
WASHINGTON - U.S. officials said Tuesday that a North Korean ship has turned around and is headed back toward the north where it came from, after being tracked for more than a week by American Navy vessels on suspicion of carrying illegal weapons.
The move keeps the U.S. and the rest of the international community guessing: Where is the Kang Nam going? Does its cargo include materials banned by a new U.N. anti-proliferation resolution?
The ship left a North Korean port of Nampo on June 17 and is the first vessel monitored under U.N. sanctions that ban the regime from selling arms and nuclear-related material.
The Navy has been watching it — at times following it from a distance. It traveled south and southwest for more than a week; then, on Sunday, it turned around and headed back north, two U.S. officials said on condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence.
Nearly two weeks after the ship left North Korea, officials said Tuesday they still don't know where it is going. But it was some 250 miles south of Hong Kong on Tuesday, one official said.
Though acknowledging all along that the Kang Nam's destination was unclear, some officials said last week that it could be going to Myanmar and that it was unclear whether it could reach there without stopping in another port to refuel.
The U.N. resolution allows the international community to ask for permission to board and search any suspect ship on the seas. If permission for inspection is refused, authorities can ask for an inspection in whichever nation where the ship pulls into port.
North Korea has said it would consider any interception of its ships a declaration of war.
Two officials had said earlier in the day Tuesday that the Kang Nam had been moving very slowly in recent days, something that could signal it was trying to conserve fuel.
They said they didn't know what the turnaround of the ship means, nor what prompted it.
The U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Susan Rice, said Sunday that Washington was "following the progress of that ship very closely," but she would not say whether the U.S. would confront the Kang Nam.
The sailing of the vessel — and efforts to track it — set up the first test of a new U.N. Security Council resolution that authorizes member states to inspect North Korean vessels. The sanctions are punishment for an underground nuclear test the North carried out in May in defiance of past resolutions.
Meanwhile on Tuesday, the Obama administration imposed financial sanctions on a company in Iran that is accused of involvement in North Korea's missile proliferation network.
In the latest move to keep pressure on Pyongyang and its nuclear ambitions, the Treasury Department moved against Hong Kong Electronics, a company located in Kish Island, Iran. The action means that any bank accounts or other financial assets found in the United States belonging to the company must be frozen. Americans also are prohibited from doing business with the firm.
Second Thoughts on North Korea’s Inscrutable Ship
U.S. Pursues Firms With Ties to North Korea (July 1, 2009)
For more than two weeks now, White House officials have been receiving frequent updates on a rusting North Korean ship, the Kang Nam 1, as it makes its way dead-slow across the South China Sea. Earlier this month, Mr. Obama’s aides thought the aging hulk — with its long rap sheet for surreptitious deliveries of missiles and arms — would be the first test of a United Nations Security Council resolution giving countries the right to hail suspect shipments, and order them to a nearby port for inspection.
But now some top officials in the Obama administration are beginning to wonder whether Kim Jong-il, the North Korean leader, ordered the Kang Nam 1 out on a fishing expedition — in hopes that a new American president will be his first catch.
“The whole thing just doesn’t add up,” said one senior administration official who has been tracking the cargo ship’s lazy summer journey. “My worry is that we make a big demand about seeing the cargo, and then there’s a tense standoff, and when it’s all over we discover that old man Kim set us up to look like George Bush searching for nonexistent W.M.D.”
Are the North Koreans really that wily?
Maybe so. For a country that prides itself on its hermetic seal, it has played a pretty impressive game for the past eight years. As the United States headed for Iraq, it amassed the fuel for six or eight nuclear weapons. Mr. Kim set off a nuclear blast in 2006, then got the United States to take the North off the terrorism list in return for hobbling its main nuclear facility. Now it has set off another test and appears to be reactivating that facility, prompting Mr. Obama’s defense secretary, Robert M. Gates, to vow he would not “buy the same horse” a second time.
With the world on high alert to intercept North Korean shipments — maybe a load of missiles like it sent to Yemen a few years back, or reactor parts like those that helped Syria start a secret program — imagine the headlines if the United States and its allies chased after a ship full of innocuous cargo. Inside the administration, officials ranging from Vice President Joe Biden to the deputy secretary of state, James Steinberg, have cautioned the administration to go slow. The Navy seems to need no convincing. It has kept the the U.S.S. John McCain — named for the senator’s father and grandfather — well beyond the horizon, so there is no sense of a low-speed chase at sea.
Pentagon officials are clearly not eager to confront the Kang Nam 1. The intelligence about what is on board is typically murky. Some say they suspect small arms, which are banned by the United Nations resolution but hardly a major threat. Members of Mr. Obama’s team who served in the Clinton administration remember past embarrassments, including the interception of a Chinese ship suspected of carrying chemical precursors in the early 1990s. When the ship was finally cornered, the cargo turned out to be benign.
Mr. Obama’s top aides say they are acutely aware of the dangers if the same happened with the Kang Nam 1. Whatever momentum the administration has created to confront the North Koreans would be lost if the first intercepted ship was carrying sea bass, or Ping-Pong balls.
The Kang Nam 1 is hardly the only slow-burning confrontation with North Korea these days, or even the most important. The country’s nuclear tests, while less than impressive, indicate that Mr. Kim’s engineers are getting better at nuclear detonations. They are learning from the many mistakes made during their missile tests, and they may have scheduled another one for coming days.
(In 2006 the North set off missiles on July 4, and the nuclear test came on Memorial Day, showing a particular affection for American national holidays. Many expect the next missile test — one the North has suggested might be aimed at Hawaii — could come on Saturday. But if your holiday plans call for spending the day on Diamond Head, it is probably not worth cancelling your plans: There is no evidence yet the North’s missiles can reach that far, and their aim is singularly unimpressive.)
But the Kang Nam 1 is a test of whether United Nations sanctions have some teeth. And in a bigger sense the caution about intercepting the ship reflects a bigger concern about going about sanctions in the right way — a way that keeps the allies and other nations on board. Mr. Obama is eager to demonstrate, his aides say, that he is not Mr. Bush and will not stretch the authorities granted by the Security Council. So American officials say they have no intention of boarding the Kang Nam 1 or any other North Korean-flagged ship on the high seas, a step the North has warned it would consider an act of war. They have been telling members of Congress that this is not the Cuban Missile Crisis — it is an effort to bring the Chinese and the Russians aboard for gradually escalating sanctions.
The country watching all this most closely, officials say they assume, is Iran. When the headlines about the election and potential vote fraud in Iran begin to fade, its nuclear facilities could be the next targets of a United Nations-sanctioned inspection regime.
The Iranians have, in the past, ranked among North Korea’s biggest customers for missile parts, some shipped directly from North Korea. Now that there is renewed talk of sanctions aimed at Tehran — a likely subject of conversation at the meeting of leaders of the largest industrial nations in Italy next week — the outcome of the world’s most lethargic race at sea may appear as important in the Strait of Hormuz as it does in the South China Sea.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.