View Full Version : Your opinions on the stopping power of the 5.56
Guys,
Just saw an interesting show on the Military Channel about the top ten CQB rifles. I wasn't taking notes, but H&K had two of the top ten slots.
Magpul's prototype "folding" rifle was on the list too....as well as the MP5's successor....MP7...I think.
Each manufacturer was allowed to talk about and then demonstrate their weapons. Several manufacturers mentioned the need to go above and beyond 5.56 because (as one ex Delta Force guy said) the 5.56 just wasn't enough to "take the bad guy out of the fight."
I'm sure I'll get a little grief for bringing it up again, but I'd like to read any opinions you guys have about this. Everyone here shoots 5.56....so obviously we think differently.
Are they wrong? If so, why?
Several manufacturers mentioned the need to go above and beyond 5.56 because (as one ex Delta Force guy said) the 5.56 just wasn't enough to "take the bad guy out of the fight."
A lot of ex-high speed guys become pitchmen for silly companies. I mean... you aren't going to beat the M4 carbean in a fair fight....
So you have to piss on the caliber/cartridge. Half the shit you see on these shows is total horse shit. I mean.. Leitner Weiss guns that don't even run are making TOP 10 rankings.
We can begin by agreeing that "stopping power" doesn't exist.
5.56x45 isn't perfect, but it gets the job done as long as you don't ask it to be something it's not.
Thomas M-4
06-19-09, 14:29
6.8 SPC AND 5.7 FN You can buy but the rest of it you cant as far as I know.
6.8 Has good barrier penetration and damaging power the 5.7 is meant to penetrate softbody armor and is lacking in tissue damaging power.
CarlosDJackal
06-19-09, 14:38
To quote a very experienced Israeli Mossad Agent: "The cartridge will do its job if you do yours!!"
CAVEAT: He was actually talking about the 9mm but it is applicable to any caliber.
The real issue with these kind of shows is they need to showcase different weapons otherwise they can only put out one of these type of shows instead they get all of these so called (paid for by whichever company paid the most) experts that say this is the best weapon for insert application here to use. So always take this information for what it is a television show. Which is nothing more than entertainment
k_cheerangie
06-19-09, 15:00
If your shooting FMJ I think stopping power is all but absent, since the round is moving to fast and will zip through a lot of stuff without hesitation.
A simple but effective HP will produce a much more violent transfer of energy to the intended target.
To quote a very experienced Israeli Mossad Agent: "The cartridge will do its job if you do yours!!"
CAVEAT: He was actually talking about the 9mm but it is applicable to any caliber.
DING! We have a winner, at least in my opinion. Regardless of caliber, if all you hit is air, it's not going to do much. Good shot placement with anything from a .22 to a .338 will do the same job... some just do it with more gusto.
We can begin by agreeing that "stopping power" doesn't exist.
How about Knock Down Power? :p
I like to use an analogy when I tell people why 9mm works in a handgun and I think it applies here too.
"Shooting is like Real Estate; Location, Location, Location."
Chris
MSP "Sarge"
06-19-09, 15:44
Punch a bunch of holes in them! They will bleed out.
To quote a very experienced Israeli Mossad Agent: "The cartridge will do its job if you do yours!!"
CAVEAT: He was actually talking about the 9mm but it is applicable to any caliber.
This reminds me of two things:
1) There was an article (in SWAT I believe) a while back about how the Israeli's used to use .22 caliber Beretta pistols for covert work. And no, this wasn't for sneaky, point-blank assasination jobs.
2) I just saw an FBI presentation critiquing a shootout in Philly where it was alleged that .40 S&W JHPs failed to stop a suspect but .223 carbine ammo did. After analysis, it was found that .223 only did better because it happened to hit the suspect in the aorta and lung while most of the .40s outright missed (6 hits out of 100+ fired) and those that landed hit in non-critical areas except for the last one which was the actual fight-stopper that shattered the suspects right elbow. The presentation ends by saying that shot placement is the critical factor not caliber used.
In the end, "stopping power" is a far, far lower consideration than ACTUALLY HITTING the target in the right places in the first place.
Derek_Connor
06-19-09, 15:51
If you are absolutely relying on each of your bullets to be that 110%, bad ass mushrooming, expanding, ripping of flesh, blood releasing round that its advertised to be, I think you may be doing it wrong.
God blessed us with 30 round magazines....
i'm no terminal ballistic sexpert, but the more i learn the more it seems 5.56 FMJ is about as deadly a round as you're gonna get. shot placement and luck are the two biggest components, but as seen in the "m193 through the leg" thread, the bullet makes a dent all on its own.
as far as fast moving FMJs zipping right through- maybe it seems like that, until you think about it like this: what makes a bigger splash in the water, a big rock dropped in? or a slightly smaller rock fast-pitched in? that little FMJ hits flesh and the waters part.
furthermore, the faster the round is twisting, it seems to me, in my uneducated opinion, the better its gonna fragment.. distributing ALL of the energy into the wound.
just my thinking.
sandman99and9
06-19-09, 17:12
How about Knock Down Power? :p
I saw that show the other night and the #1 cqb weapon was the Kriss super v. The big factor by the " experts " was it was in .45 and had serious " knock down power " I almost fell over laughing when they said that. I carry an xd .45 but am not relying on knock down power but more like shot placement. Correct me if I am wrong but won't most quality body armor stop a .45 ??
s.m.
Is the 6.8 a viable caliber? Probably so. Is it better than the 5.56 based upon what the stats say? Maybe. But, the 5.56 has been killing motherf*ckers for over 40 years pretty successfully. Maybe, just maybe if we updated the type of ammunition that was being used (maybe something along the lines of the TAP T2 or Mk262 MOD1) for every swinging Richard we would see even better results.
Still won't see me volunteering to get shot with a feeble 5.56 round anytime soon.
I've never treated anyone shot with 5.56 or 9mm that complained that it wasn't a big enough bullet to hurt them... having seen the effects of both rounds up close I have no doubt that it works when applied correctly.
If you aren't getting the desired results then you are using the wrong tool for the task, the one's that cry about the effectiveness either always hated the round or have some other agenda.
Bottom line.
I dont want to get shot with anything.
Any kind of bullet piercing my flesh is going to be a bad ****ing day.
Failure2Stop
06-19-09, 18:07
In my experience 5.56 M855 and Mk262 do pretty well on exposed threats.
It's limitations become more apparent when it comes to intervening obstacles such as glass, auto bodies, cinderblock, etc. In these cases the performance of alternate (heavier) calibers come into their own.
There aren't many things in the world that suck as much as knowing exactly where the threat is while he is shooting at your guys, but you can't get a bullet into him because of a few inches of bricks between him and you.
As a civilian, I've seen tremoundous wounding - rapidly fatal - on 6 whitetails with 6 rounds of a variety of OTM and softpoint loads. I've no lack of confidence in this caliber.
Jim from Houston
06-19-09, 18:14
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf
Here's a link to a presentation that was given by Dr. Gary K. Roberts (who moderates this site's terminal ballistics forum).
The presentation is a fairly comprehensive treatment of the various issues surrounding 5.56 performance (and in particular the M855 round) as well as other options.
I don't think that anyone well versed in terminal ballistics would believe that 5.56 is ineffective against a human target as long as it achieve proper fragmentation...there are issues that arise, however, with certain 5.56 designs that fail to consistently achieve fragmentation under certain circumstances (especially with short barrels and/or small, slightly built people on the receiving end).
Additionally, 5.56 is a very poor caliber for penetrating cover and barriers including auto glass. If you've ever taken shots at a pile of wood with an AR-15, a 7.62x39 AK, and a 7.62 NATO rifle like an M14 or FAL, the difference in cover-penetrating ability is enormous.
If you have questions on this subject, of course, we're lucky enough to have Dr. Roberts himself as a moderator on the site, and I'm sure he'd be happy to answer questions about his presentation, over on the M4Carbine.net terminal ballistics forum.
If you shoot someone in the arm it'll come outta there toe and it tumbles in flight so it does awesome damage!
:D
If you shoot someone in the arm it'll come outta there toe and it tumbles in flight so it does awesome damage!
:D
We all know it comes out of the opposite ear............
Additionally if you can see him and not hit him, sounds like a job for 40mm love from your 203 gunner.
We all know it comes out of the opposite ear............
I thought it only came outta the ear if you shoot them in the leg?
I saw a guy in a movie shot with a AR and he went flying like 10 feet through the air !! so it has to be good :) hehehehehe
A lot of ex-high speed guys become pitchmen for silly companies. I mean... you aren't going to beat the M4 carbean in a fair fight....
So you have to piss on the caliber/cartridge. Half the shit you see on these shows is total horse shit. I mean.. Leitner Weiss guns that don't even run are making TOP 10 rankings.
...are you serious? I hate to hijack a thread for your inane drivel (again), but what have the folks at LWRCi done to you so that you feel the need to say something bad about their company at every opportunity? What did Paul Leitner-Wise (who is no longer even with the company) do to you so that you feel the need to say something bad about their company at every opportunity? Feel free to call, e-mail, post, or PM your response.
I tell you what; I’ll stop posting the good things about them (that are actually factual BTW) like being approved for duty use by the DEA or being adopted by the PFPA if you’ll agree to stop libeling them at every opportunity.
I have genuine friends at that organization. What you're implying and saying about them is false and hurtful and even worse serves no purpose other than inflaming their supporters and customers (which is what I assume you're after) and showing your pettiness.
Stephen
This thread is not worth the bandwidth.;)
Oh yeah, to the OP; I've seen lots of booger eaters shot with M855 and M80. Not a single one reacted the same way. Some were one shot stops with M855 and some were multiple COM hits with M80 that didn't immediately incapacitate. I am a known 6.8mm SPC lover, but I think it would be a wiser decision to sink money from all the open ended weapon, ammo, and accessory programs into SRM programs for every single combatant in the US Military. Hits count a lot more than bore diameter.
That being said I would take 6.8mm over 5.56mm any day of the week... :D
Stephen
To quote a very experienced Israeli Mossad Agent: "The cartridge will do its job if you do yours!!"
CAVEAT: He was actually talking about the 9mm but it is applicable to any caliber.
I read that same some years ago. Very astute! :cool:
OldNavyGuy
06-20-09, 09:54
Leitner Weiss guns
never heard about these guns, where can i get more info ?
got a link ?
Is the 6.8 a viable caliber?
I've been hearing chatter that they're developing ammo that takes the 6.8 out of the "USELESS" category. I don't follow it very close, but a guru I know told me they're coming up with hotter loads that help the 6.8's shortcomings.
...are you serious? I hate to hijack a thread for your inane drivel (again), but what have the folks at LWRCi done to you so that you feel the need to say something bad about their company at every opportunity? What did Paul Leitner-Wise (who is no longer even with the company) do to you so that you feel the need to say something bad about their company at every opportunity?
Although leitner is no longer with the company, they're slimey tactics carry on. Leitner himself wasn't even the original offender in the Shilling department.
Why do you defend such a bottom feeder company so aggressively? Have you received free product from them or something? :confused:
We can begin by agreeing that "stopping power" doesn't exist.
I'd have somewhat to disagree with this. as far as projectiles at handgun velocities go, I think the current belief is that "stopping power" is a myth, but at rifle velocities, it's a different ball game.
DING! We have a winner, at least in my opinion. Regardless of caliber, if all you hit is air, it's not going to do much. Good shot placement with anything from a .22 to a .338 will do the same job... some just do it with more gusto.
:rolleyes:
I think I know what you're trying to say but I sincerely disagree with what you just wrote...
Although leitner is no longer with the company, they're slimey tactics carry on. Leitner himself wasn't even the original offender in the Shilling department.
Why do you defend such a bottom feeder company so aggressively? Have you received free product from them or something? :confused:
well, this whole thing has jumped the shark, eh?
Mentioning LWRC around MarkM is like metioning the Susquehanna Hat Company in this Abbot & Costello skit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WIQ67vRg6c
Continued here Mark:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=393527#post393527
Stephen
I'd have somewhat to disagree with this. as far as projectiles at handgun velocities go, I think the current belief is that "stopping power" is a myth, but at rifle velocities, it's a different ball game.
The term power implies a measurable metric. What units are used to measure "stopping power?"
It's a meaningless term that was invented by marketing departments. Nothing more.
then it's just a matter of incorrect wording. "stopping ability" would be better. and guns do have varying degrees of stopping ability.. a 22lr is much more likely to leave a man in a condition well enough to keep coming than a 50bmg. a COM hit with a 50bmg within effective range has pretty decent chance of keeping a man from taking a single controlled step forward... like, probably almost 100% chance.
while i agree the term is used i incorrectly, like a million other terms, i do believe stopping ability, or whatever you want to call it- the ability to stop a man from continuing to be a threat- is absolutely important when deciding on a weapon for a job. otherwise we'd all be running airsoft... lot cheaper to shoot.
and, as just about everyone here agrees- the 5.56 has plenty of stopping ability.
another attribute of the 5.56 and specifically from an AR, is muzzle control. this is why i went from .45s to 9mm, and why the AR is such a phenominal weapon- not only is the round plenty effective, but in the hands of someone with not all that much training, you can pretty much empty the magazine into someone. 30 rounds of light weight, damaging ammunition from a platform capable of very rapid sight aquisition and rapid RTZ.
I by no means am any expert, But I totally agree with shot placement.
I dont think anyone say that the .50BMG is lacking in "stopping ability" But if anyone here knows the story on Mickey Block he was shot 19 times by .50 in a friendly fire incident during Vietnam and lived to tell about it.
Failure2Stop
06-21-09, 07:20
Shot placement is great and all, but is not really pertinent when one is discussing terminal ballistics, which this discussion is all about.
"Stopping Power" is a flawed term, and really anything that utlizes either word is flawed as it is attempting to describe a highly variable and uncertain event with absolutes and make-believe measurements. What is the criteria for the "stop"? Is it within 1 second? 5 seconds? 30 seconds? 1 minute? 5 minutes? If someone get shot, and 30 seconds later gives up, is that a successful stop? What if they bleed-out and die in 20 minutes? Are you only discussing the immediate cessation of action, and if not what are the parameters?
If one combines two fallicies, shot placement and "stopping power", you can readily see the issue with both when talking about termial performance- let's say you shoot someone frontally through the eye toward the back of the skull, directly through the brain stem and cerebellum with a 22LR. That shot is guaranteed to immediately stop the threat. This would imply that with proper shot placement the 22LR has 100% of required stopping power. Now let's say that instead of shooting the brain stem, you put the bullet straight into the heart. Great shot placement, unfortunately, the low energy 22LR isn't going to do much more than punch a little hole in the heart. So the guy keeps fighting, pissed off that you ruined his favorite wife-beater, until he finally loses enough blood to go woozy. Does this qualify as a stop? He did stop eventually, right? Was the power of the 22LR with good shot placement sufficient to result in a stop? Now what if you shoot him in the right shoulder, and the sudden realization of applied lethal force makes him choose to give up? Still a stop right? So you are looking at very different ways in which the stop was achieved, none of them due to the awesome power of the 22LR. The only example that would be influenced by a "better" caliber would be the heart shot.
With ballistic gelatin shots you can see the kind of damage one can expect the bullet to produce in soft tissue at equivalent distances. It makes no claim about "stopping power". Though a bigger hole will generally be associated with a faster stop, a big benefit is a larger margin of error in placement. That is to say that I am more likely to achieve incapacitation with less than perfect shot placement than a bullet that has a smaller permanent cavity.
When it comes to performance of bullets in tissue you should be basing your choice on what can be tested and proven, such as that done by Dr. Roberts and given to us for nothing here at the Terminal Ballistics Forum.
I heard it here or on another site:
"There's stupid, then there's History Channel stupid."
TV shows have a way of distilling things down to the lowest common denominator, so the average trailer-dweller can absorb it. I saw the show as well, and was highly entertained by all the garbage being spewed. But I did not allow myself to forget that practically every "expert" being interviewed worked for the company that manufactured the product they were endorsing. It simple, of course you are going to put your product in the best light. If you were pitching G-36C's, why would you say that an M4A1 could practically do the same job? Any show that would advocate a pistol caliber submachine gun as being the super-weapon of the 21st century has definitely lost my respect. My department's tactical team stopped using subguns years ago in favor of shorty AR's. Ultimately, its not as much about the gear as the man behind it; an experienced rifleman with an old M-16A1 can beat some idiot weenie-wacker with an M4A1 space gun with every scope, light, laser and grip hung off of it.
We had another saying in the Air Force: "Its not the plane, its the pilot".
jlewis1102
06-21-09, 10:36
Neo, I think your quote says it all! The 5.56 is more than capable due to its design and ballistics to deliver numerous rounds into a tightly grouped area in a short amount of time. In the hands of a capable operator they would be center mass or head shots. The rest is overkill. I don't think any of us can argue over the fact that dead is dead!
never heard about these guns, where can i get more info ?
got a link ?
http://www.leitner-wise.com/
Only link I can find that is related to that man.
This article, among other things, states that there is a 92% satisfaction rate with the M4 carbine. "Stopping power" is also mentioned in it.
An infantryman who is quoted in the article says that "If you hit a guy in the right place with any caliber, he’s going to go down.”
Linky: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/09/army_infantry_092808w/
Just the threat of use of ANY of them on my person will stop me cold. :p
Placement is king but, obviously, other cartridges will be more lethal after going through barriers so I'm not blind to the limitations of 5.56 NATO. It has it's purpose & limits. Whether or not it should be NATO's top tier cartridge is another story. I'm certain the 6.8 SPC would be better but we cannot just blink our eyes and click our heels and every cartridge, mag, bolt, etc, etc. ever made would be a 6.8 SPC.
Keep in mind that people CAN be especially resilient and absorb crazy damage including rifle and slugs into their bodies. Generally speaking, bigger is PROBABLY better but is it better enough to warrant the downsides like greater recoil, more weight, less capacity, etc.? That's above my paygrade and my opinions are like body parts in this regard as I've never humped with a rifle in combat and hopefully will never have to.
As I say to all those that bash the 556, stand in front of the barrel and prove its ineffectiveness.
Ha ha, the old majic bullet issue. How do you stop a threat with one shot?
I think if that majic bullet existed, the one shot= one immediate kill wonder, everyone in the world would be using it by now.
I guarantee there is such a thing, and that is a .50 cal. But, there is such thing as PRACTICALITY. And that is where something like a 50, or the like, isn't going to work unless you think humping a 30 lb., 4 foot long thunder stick practical. And then you gotta be accurate because if that scope isn't sighted in anymore because you dropped that thing when you crossed that last wash, or you cranked off that round when you didn't mean to, or you just suck, well I hope you can run better than you can shoot because even though Charlie don't surf, he has a gun and so does his buddies. So you'd better surf.
For all those super snipers, be realistic. Snipers do wonderful things, but a mere handful ever do their skill in real life, and even less ever get recognized. That's because unless you are on the winning side, they all almost get killed. I mean it's very cool to sneak in wearing all that cool camo, patiently wait for that opportune time, dial everything in, doping, rotation of the earth, etc. Then slowly pull the trigger, pow, and pink mist. Then when you just gave away your well hidden position, and that mope you just blew away friends notice what just happened and they start to charge you with those highly innacurate AK that jst so happens to land rounds, oh...say about a foot and a half from your head then you get up yelping like a tranny that just got slapped, and start running away....
And that leads to the next thing, ACCURACY. Yes accuracy is king. However accuracy is relative to not being killed by whatever is trying to kill you. That could be a wolverine (the 4 legged kind), or a Wolverine (the x-men kind), or a Wolverine (Charlie Sheen as a teenager with an AK kind).
That reminds me of one of Murphy's Law of Combat (Murphy was a grunt) and that was "If you are accurate enough means you aren't moving quick enough" and your gonna get shot. I love watching fellow shooters shoot magnificent scores in to paper at the range and get glorious scores. Only to watch them go to shit when you make them run, hide, duck, run again, roll, and so on. And in an actual firefight, 99% of accuracy is out the window. I now look back and think how funny (besides scared shitless) is to first hand witness AND participate in such an event.
Now you wouldn't think fracticide happens because someone just so happened to run right into your line of sight as you had a perfect bead on haji just as you pulled the trigger, now did you? NO! Fracticide only happens when you pray and spray, or did like that guy we always see on the film footage in Vietnam. You know, where he holds his M16 above his head and fires it w/o looking. I know we've all said "I wouldn't do that". But we weren't in his shoes at the moment were we? I know I've wanted to.
That brings up the next point, FIREPOWER. Now if we were perfect shots we'd still carry muskets. There is a very good reason as to why we've went from a 12 lb. 8 round capacity rifle to a 12 lb. 20 round mag capacity rifle, then to a 7lb 30 round mag capacity rifle in a span of less than 30 years, with each version having a quicker way to reload. I'm sure "stopping power" was weighed in. But no where near as to the need for firepower factored in. To best sum it up and referring back to Murphy's Laws of Combat, "If it is worth shooting once, it's worthing shooting at it again" and again, and again... Bullets are cheap, my ass aint so cheap.
Now the 30-06 has great stopping power and ballistics, and so does the 308. However just imagine that same M1 Garand and you lumping that around along with at least 210 rounds. More like 300+ rounds. Now I know many will say, "Well I'm a real man and I'd only go to war with a 308" and "We're only talking about a 15 lb. difference". Really macho man? Just say that after a 14 mile hump, And oh, by the way, don't forget to carry a couple of drums for the SAW, a few mortar rounds, water, MRE's and so on. How too often I see 'real men' having a choice to either check out a 'light' M4 or an 870 shotgun wuss out after just a week because either one of them is too heavy and bulky (i.e. "a hassle") to take from the armory to the vehicle parked 25 yards away and back at the end of the night.
Now given a choice, if I had to go for a long hump..., or if I'm dug in and expecting an assault by the French and Indians in the morning...
Now funny thing about a killin Charlie. No two kills ever look a like. When it comes from small arms. JDAMs and napalm, pretty much the same. But guns poking holes, a whole different ball game. I call it KILLING DYNAMICS. (WTF, I had to call it something). Not only do you have to factor in accuracy, or lack of, you also gotta look at body positioning, clothing, body armor, under the influence of mind altering substance, plain ol crazy, balls of steel, etc.
If there is one event that conveys this just simply Google "1986 Miami shootout" and you can read, or watch, for yourselves what happens when 'The Premier Agency' gets in to a shootout and it goes to crap. Well only when it happens to them they'll invent two new cartridges, the 10mm and .40 cal.
Check it out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBGfKtuo2AM
That clip couldn't explain what I wrote above any better than that. From what I've been told that scene was 99.9% accurate. Something about the number of shots fire at Mireles, or Mireles at Matix and Platt was off by one shot. It also shows accuracy going to shit, the stopping power of a 5.56 through a vest, 9mm, buckshot, guys with balls of steel (no drugs in system) fighting and killing agents even though they received a fatal shot from the get go.
I love that clip because it clearly kills "I'll only have well placed shots and thus effectively stop any threa..." BS on the spot. There were many well placed shots in that shootout and others. There were many kills with not so well placed weeny 5.56 too. Sometimes sending well placed 5.5whatevers through the same hole doesn't stop as well as putting a hole in the ass, another in the gut, another through the leg, and so on creating multi wound channels because your lead recipient is spinning, shucking and jiving and shooting back at you. I also love this clip because it shows that the dad in Family Ties, Michael Gross, can also be a bad mutha.
Another issue about reports of which round does best in combat can be so easily screwed up. I mean it isn't like we have the CSI technitians in the middle of Falluja wearing lab coats and holding tweezers to figure this out. Pretty much after the gunfire grunts go and check out their handy work and collect the bodies into a pile and call it a day.
You'll have one of our fine soldiers shoot a bad guy standing in a window with his M16 some 130 yards away, and the bad guy drops out of sight. Then the soldier would bitch because he knew he hit the bad guy and it didn' do dick. But what he didn't know is the guy dropped dead like a sack of potatoes and after the JDAM blew the house into smitherines, we'd never know how effective his one lucky well placed shot was. Or a soldier bitching about "I must have shot that guy, like fidy times. Shit if I had a fidy cal..bla, bla, bla". But in reality he shot the berm some 3 yards in front of him, like fidy times, and was too jacked up to realize that, well...
Finally, I'd say this; if the 5.56 is such a crappy caliber that WE adopted, why did the Soviets go to a even smaller caliber in less than a decade. 5.56 is here to stay baby. Get used to it and embrace the suck, or get over it.
My post is ovah!
and no I didn't feel like running spell check. I'm tired.
Great post, i303! I concur with your post greatly but you put... personality in the post. I laughed. A lot.
Keep writing, I'm reading. :D
Thanks,
I'll admit, I based all my real life experiences I've had in airsoft battles and watching ALOT of movies. :)
BTW, has anyone come to the conclusion that the Terminator is effectively a piece of shit, possibly made in China or Mexico?
It's supposed to be this bad ass killing platform with massive firepower.
I mean after 25 years (4 movies and a TV show) the damned things has yet to kill it's intended target and usually gets killed in some retarded fashion by always falling in some convenient vat of molten metal that just so happens to be lying around. Heck, even an army of those things couldn't kill that 6 year old girl.
Just a thought.
And in an actual firefight, 99% of accuracy is out the window.
Now if we were perfect shots we'd still carry muskets.
I love that clip because it clearly kills "I'll only have well placed shots and thus effectively stop any threa..." BS on the spot. There were many well placed shots in that shootout and others.
I'm trying to figure out your point in all of this. Shot placement doesn't matter? Small arms improvements wouldn't happen if we trained better? Accuracy doesn't happen in the real world so why bother?
Maybe my reading comprehension skills are lacking a bit tonight, but I can't quite figure out what you're getting at besides spouting off with stuff that occasionally makes my eyes roll.
Maybe it's that there are no easy answers to questions like how do you stop a guy quickly in a gunfight. True enough. And by this point in history, people who care enough to want to know the answer to that question (likely because their life depends on it) know there are no easy answers, so they do what they can.
But some people want an easy answer to a hard question. It's the same thinking that answers "Why did the American Civil War happen?" with "Slavery, just say slavery." Let them have their easy answers and accompanying ignorance. Until they decide they want to spend more than a minute investigating something, there's no use wasting time trying to teach them otherwise.
dookie1481
06-22-09, 23:41
Ha ha, the old majic bullet issue. How do you stop a threat with one shot?
I think if that majic bullet existed, the one shot= one immediate kill wonder, everyone in the world would be using it by now.
I guarantee there is such a thing, and that is a .50 cal. But, there is such thing as PRACTICALITY.
I believe Charile Beckwith took a 12.7 to the torso in Vietnam and lived.
Jay
I believe Charile Beckwith took a 12.7 to the torso in Vietnam and lived.
Jay
Soldiers like Col. Beckwith are not allowed to die unless ordered to by God. Since he didn't have orders to die from God it didn't matter if he was hot by a fidy cal. Did he really take it in the torso?
Shot placement is great and all, but is not really pertinent when one is discussing terminal ballistics, which this discussion is all about.
After reading a bit more, I have to agree. I said shot placement was king, and to a point, I still believe that. That being said, it truely is more about terminal ballistics, as F2S states. Why would I change my tune, even if it is just ever so slightly? Here's why...
1. Shot placement is king, when you can make the shot. If you can't, well, it doesn't matter at all.
2. Terminal ballistics are king, when you hit what you are aiming at, if you don't, it doesn't matter.
3. Accuracy has nothing to do with it. A bullet doesn't care if it was precisely aimed at the vitals, just that it hits there.
Basically, if someone fires over a barrier, blindly, and gets lucky, the bullet hits a vital and it's lights out. It doesn't have anything to do with how good a shot someone is if it finds it's target. Hell, it could bounce off a wall and still kill someone.
Saying accuracy goes out the window during a gunfight is probably true to an extent for the vast majority of people (including me as I've never been in one), but saying a lucky shot won't do any good because it wasn't accurately aimed doesn't fly either, because that bullet will do the same job it ever would as long as it hits a vital. That doesn't mean that accuracy/shot placement in tandem with good terminal ballistics can't be achieved, it just means it's probably a better, more well trained, cool under pressure person than I, or many of the people here. There are probably better rounds, given a specific set of criteria, and that's the problem in discussions like this... there are too many criteria! It'll do the job if applied correctly.
I still wouldn't wanna be shot at by anyone with an ounce of skill with any caliber. Hell, I wouldn't wanna be shot at by someone with NO skill with any caliber.
CryingWolf
06-23-09, 18:38
I know this subject is very long in the tooth along with this thread, but do you think we tend to over analyze the subject of stopping power of xx bullet? It has been agreed upon that shot placement, location, is true factor of stopping power. If you were given the choice, and only given one shot, of hitting a bad person in the pump with a .22LR or hitting them in the pinky with a 50cal we would probably choose the .22LR every time.
P.S. I have heard that hitting a guy in the hand with a .45 will blow off his whole arm. :D So I think I will keep my 1911 around. ;)
The_War_Wagon
06-23-09, 20:15
Soldiers like Col. Beckwith are not allowed to die unless ordered to by God. Since he didn't have orders to die from God it didn't matter if he was hot by a fidy cal. Did he really take it in the torso?
Yes. At the field hospital, the doc took one look, and told the nurse, his case was hopeless - "let's move on."
Scooping his innards and cradling them in his arms, he got up off the stretcher, and informed the doc & nurse, that if he WASN'T operated on, then his last official act on earth, would be to kick BOTH their asses clean off this planet.
They decided to operate. He lived another 28 years. :D
CAInstructorTx
02-07-10, 20:07
Now if this ain't a can of worms. I would say for all intents and purposes, as stated previously, that shot placement is paramount, after that, a bullet is a bullet, and by it's very nature, would SUCK to get hit with. I'm just as likely to stand in front of a Marlin Model 60 .22LR as an M4 with M855, which is to say, NOT AT ALL. Is the 6.8SPC better? Well, I guess you could say it is "supposed to be", but after that, it's all about velocities, trajectories, gravity, earth's rotation, temperature, the allignment of the planets, and the day of the week. That was a joke by the way, don't send the mob. Who knows, I suppose the ammunition manufacturers do. I guess it all depends on your use. If you are in downtown badguyville, and the yocals are wearing body armor and wielding RPG's and AK's, then maybe the discussion would carry more merit than say, a patrol rifle locked in the trunk of a squad car, or relegated to weekend range duty. (not counting those bank robbers some years back, but you know what I mean.) The 5.56 is a good round, and should never be discounted, if it didn't work, then it wouldn't work, plain and simple..... and it does work, ask all the dead guys. Are there shortcomings?? Yes, and there always will be, regardless of caliber. I guess that's why there is more than one gun in use by whatever department, agency, or DoD branch. After all, the old saying Jack of All Trades, Master of None, doesn't really count with firearms, as there will always be something better in someones eyes.
1) whatever you carry, regardless of caliber, PRACTICE with it, and become as good as you possibly can with it.
2) TRUST your skills and abilities, also regardless of caliber, because if you go into battle with a round you aren't sure about, then atleast you will know you can still do your best with it.
3) see number 1.
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