View Full Version : P229 DAK vs P30 LEM
I'm mostly happy with the P229 DAK after switching from a DA/SA Sig, but I'm intrigued by the LEM and particularly the positive reset and shorter trigger travel. I've yet to get accessories for the P229 (in the last month of my wait for a VM2 holster), so if I were to switch carry platforms, now would be as good a time as any.
I'm fairly mindful of SIMP (I just sold a P7 that I never shoot, so I'm down to a DAK 229 and a DA/SA P6), but the P30 seems very promising. Thoughts?
Buy the HK. The DAK two stage reset is horrid. No grip screws to lose with the HK, you can re-contour the grip to fit your hand by changing panels; can't do that with the SIG.
Buy the HK. The DAK two stage reset is horrid. No grip screws to lose with the HK, you can re-contour the grip to fit your hand by changing panels; can't do that with the SIG.
I agree (was confused until your edit). We transitioned to the DAK, and was not a big fan. My buddy bought an LEM and the reset is really nice. It took me a bit to get used to the huge amount of take-up but after that I could shoot it very well.
Thanks, I caught it after I posted it, too damn many acronyms to remember!
varoadking
06-21-09, 06:48
Buy the HK. The DAK two stage reset is horrid. No grip screws to lose with the HK, you can re-contour the grip to fit your hand by changing panels; can't do that with the SIG.
A bit harsh, IMHO...
I own several HK LEM's, and personally, I prefer boh the Light LEM and DAK well more than the HK V2 LEM...
Not sure what you mean about the grip panels on a SiG - it doesn't get any easier to change grips than...well...changing grips...
Robb Jensen
06-21-09, 06:55
Buy the HK. The DAK two stage reset is horrid. No grip screws to lose with the HK, you can re-contour the grip to fit your hand by changing panels; can't do that with the SIG.
The DAK should be shot like a revolver where you're going to come all the way off the trigger. I do like the LEM better than the DAK. The DAK can be made pretty smooth. I worked over a few making them a little lighter and a lot smoother. SIG-Sauer now sells a really nice set of DAK only grips which make the gun feel as small as a Kahr, almost too small if you use a short trigger. SIGs feel nice to me with Hogue panels and Nills and Roco wood grips.
(copied from this thread (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30461) here at M4C; you should probably check out that whole thread)
HK LEM
The HK LEM is basically artifice. It uses a two-piece hammer, one part internal and one part external. When the slide is racked (loading the gun or during the firing cycle), the mainspring is compressed and kept in place as with any single action mechanism. However, the external part of the hammer moves fully forward and so does the trigger. In essence you have a cocked pistol that doesn't look cocked.
The first shot is long like a traditional double action pull, but it's not any heavier than subsequent trigger pulls. The reset is certainly longer than most striker-fired guns or a 1911, but it's only about a third of the total trigger travel arc. Three different configurations are available:
V1: nominal 4.5# trigger pull; uses standard trigger return spring and standard firing pin block spring ... this is essentially the standard P30 SA trigger pull from the DA/SA variant
V2: nominal 7.3# trigger pull; uses extra strength trigger return spring and extra strength firing pin block spring ... the one example I have measured 7# 10oz out of the box and has dropped to 7# 8oz after 1,000 rounds
V4: nominal 6.1# trigger pull; uses the extra strength trigger return spring but a standard firing pin block spring ... for reasons explained below, I believe this is probably the best option
The only one I'm even marginally familiar with is the V4. The extra strength trigger return spring plays a tremendous role in counteracting the long reset. Obviously, it's the speed at which you manipulate the trigger rather than simply the distance which determines how fast your next shot will discharge. While moving a longer distance would seem slower, the stronger trigger return spring literally slams the trigger to the reset point faster than you could move your finger alone. Will it be as fast for blind "for the fun of it" rapid fire? Probably not. But I was pulling .20 splits give or take a couple hundredths after just a few boxes of ammo.
The extra power firing pin block spring serves no purpose but to increase the trigger pull weight, so I'm planning on replacing mine with the lighter one to get about a 6# trigger pull, which I find is close to ideal for a practical gun.
SIG DAK
While my experience with the LEM is limited, my use of the DAK is extensive. In fact, I was the first person in the US (and probably in the world) to put one through its paces as a dedicated high-level training gun for many months when it was first imported. For quite a while, I probably had fired more rounds through a DAK than anyone outside a test range. I even wrote the lesson plan & taught SIG's first DAK transition class (for a large federal agency).
The SIG DAK is a genuine Double Action Only design and (prior to the SIG P250) had probably the lightest true DAO trigger pull on the market. Unlike the LEM, when the SIG DAK is at rest, the mainspring is not compressed any more than it would be in a decocked DA/SA SIG. The lighter trigger pull is achieved solely through changes to the trigger bar and some other internal parts which allow greater leverage.
When it was first released, the DAK had a nominal trigger pull of three kilos (6.6#). However, it never really quite worked out that way. For example, when we submitted the guns to DHS/ICE for testing in 2004, we called it a 7.2# trigger pull.
Because the size of the gun determines how long the trigger bar can be and thus how much leverage you can achieve, the P229 trigger was always a little heavier than the P226 by one quarter to one half a pound. The P239 DAK, being so short, has a trigger pull almost identical to the standard DA stroke for that gun. And the P220, which uses different internal dimensions, is about the same as the P229. Then, after a couple years on the market, it was determined that the DAK struggled with non-toxic primers. So a new spring, indicated by red paint, was introduced to provide a stronger primer strike. In my experience, the typical DAK trigger right now is around 7.5# +/- half a pound.
Then there is the reset. The DAK does not use a rebounding hammer like a standard (DA/SA) SIG. Therefore, it relies on the slide cycling to place the gun in what SIG calls the 'safety notch' or firing position. In order to provide restrike capability -- which SIG considers a worthwhile feature for a combat gun -- the DAK needed a way to cock the trigger when it was not in the safety notch position. The result is that, instead of being a simple "true" DAO with a full length reset, there is also an intermediate reset on a DAK. This intermediate reset, which does not benefit from the full leverage of the modified DAK mechanism, is about 2# heavier than the ordinary trigger pull. So you can either release the trigger all the way out (like a DA revolver) and get that same ~7.5# trigger pull, or you can reset it half way and get ~9.5# trigger pull on follow up shots.
In my experience, releasing the trigger all the way forward makes for much better results. In fact, I taught -- and convinced many people at SIG -- that the "intermediate" reset was really just there to save you if you short stroked the trigger ... while you should let the trigger all the way forward, the gun would protect you from yourself if you didn't. It sounded very tactical. But eventually people started to complain about how long the reset was and SIG changed course, instead saying that it was simply the shooter's choice as to which reset he should use. Last I knew, the SIG Academy taught folks to use the shorter intermediate reset.
Comparison
Both actions are very smooth and manageable from a marksmanship standpoint so long as you do not try to anticipate the shot (which can take some getting used to for Glock & 1911 shooters).
Because the trigger on the DAK & LEM will move all the way forward between shots if you let it, you never run the risk of losing contact with the trigger between shots. This means much less chance of slapping the trigger when shooting at maximum speed. So for example, while my splits were a little slower with the DAK than with a DA/SA SIG (especially using the Short Reset Trigger version), I was much less likely to throw a shot with the DAK.
The LEM wins for me because of the reset. I can use a "short" (relatively speaking) reset while keeping a true consistent trigger pull from shot to shot. Whereas the DAK is like shooting a DA revolver (not counting the intermediate reset), the LEM is much more like a 2-stage AR trigger ... a comparison I stole from sigmundsauer, truth be told. The LEM also has the option for the extra strength trigger return spring, which further enhances the reset and resultant speed.
Todd, is there any way to reverse the weight of pull of the resets? As for the new DAK panels, we just got a box. When combined with a piece of skateboard tape on the front of the grip it makes for a better grip surface.
kmrtnsn -- Negative. It's a mechanical issue. The heavier "intermediate" reset was never really even intended to be part of the design, it just happens by accident.
Todd, that post was what got me to reconsider the LEM. I'm reluctant to safe or sell the P229 after only a few hundred rounds, but that P30 is mighty appealing.
Todd, that is what I thought; bummer.
Having shot one quite a bit, the DAK would not be my choice. Is it suitable for the average guy who'll never shoot faster than 0.50 splits to begin with? Sure.
If I were going to use a SIG, it would be a DA/SA with the Short Reset "Trigger" in it.
Todd,
Superb explanation of the different trigger systems. Thanks.
Buy the HK. The DAK two stage reset is horrid. No grip screws to lose with the HK, you can re-contour the grip to fit your hand by changing panels; can't do that with the SIG.
I vote for this
Thanks for the advice everyone, especially Todd, I've started making calls. :D
Beat Trash
06-24-09, 07:57
Having shot one quite a bit, the DAK would not be my choice. Is it suitable for the average guy who'll never shoot faster than 0.50 splits to begin with? Sure.
If I were going to use a SIG, it would be a DA/SA with the Short Reset "Trigger" in it.
Not to get off topic, but can the short reset triggers be installed in the older stamped slide guns (226 & 228)?
Thanks...
Robb Jensen
06-24-09, 08:05
They can, it's a different sear and safety lever. SIG was selling them only to LE armorers. Last I checked you had to send the whole pistol to SIG-Sauer for them to install the parts.
Beat Trash
06-24-09, 11:25
gotm4,
Thanks for the info...
HK. The P229 was a classic in it's time but i think the Hk ergos, LEM trigger, and quality have surpassed it. Plus I'm not a big Sig fan these days. i would also recommend the M&P.
I would add that HK is not known for great service, hopefully that is changing with their US factory and I am out of date on the quality of Sigs service.
I like that trigger but don't see why the first DA has to be so long. Seems like quite a transition for follow up shots.
Having shot one quite a bit, the DAK would not be my choice. Is it suitable for the average guy who'll never shoot faster than 0.50 splits to begin with? Sure.
If I were going to use a SIG, it would be a DA/SA with the Short Reset "Trigger" in it.
I like that trigger but don't see why the first DA has to be so long. Seems like quite a transition for follow up shots.
Because -- short of putting a bunch of complicated gears in the action -- the trigger has to travel far enough to move the hammer all the way from decocked to fully cocked, then release it.
In its defense, the DAK DA pull is nothing like the Beretta 96D Brigadier.
In its defense, the DAK DA pull is nothing like the Beretta 96D Brigadier.
The DAK is lighter and has the option for the shorter (though heavy) reset.
Because of its unusual design -- completely eliminating the need for a sear -- the Beretta 90-series DAOs had some of the smoothest trigger pulls you'll ever see on a handgun. The full reset made being very fast a difficultly but otherwise they were very shootable.
I can personally vouch for that; the trigger pull on my Beretta 92D is literally like that of a tuned Smith & Wesson revolver. The triggerpull on it is nominally heavier that that on a DAK or LEM-its about 8 1/4 lbs, and there's a fairly long, revolver-like reset. Despite the long reset, the oscillating-block set-up is extremely smooth with minimal barrel movement, so with practice, fairly fast splits aren't beyond the realm of the achievable. Perhaps unfortunately, the 92/96 D option has been unavailable (except for large agency orders) since about 1998.
The DAK trigger is a bit of an acquired taste. It requires some practice to master, but I like the marriage of it with my P229.
Personally, I'd let my affinity/indexing between a SIG vs HK dictate my choice between the two, as opposed to making the choice on the basis of DAK versus LEM action per se. While I agree that the LEM has some advantages with its reset distance, practice and expertise with a DAK, if that's the system you choose, would minimize the difference-which I consider to be one of degree, not of disproportionate significance.
Best, Jon
Buy the HK. The DAK two stage reset is horrid. No grip screws to lose with the HK, you can re-contour the grip to fit your hand by changing panels; can't do that with the SIG.
seriously? grips screws?
:confused:
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