EMT/Paramedic v. LEO (link to video added)

[ZDL]

Anyone know the full details on this?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80665933/

From what I understand, ambulance wasn't running lights and sirens, failed to yield, EMT driver flicked LEO off, LEO stops the rig, rear paramedic gets out and starts to argue.

I can't imagine pulling over an ambulance. They don't always run lights with patients. Just like we don't always run lights going to a call. I imagine if an ambulance pulled some crazy traffic infraction in front of me then flicked me off; I would probably follow it to where it was going and have a chat when it was appropriate to do so and/or just get the rig ID and see what was up with supervisors.

Glad we have good relationships with all our medics.

[kmrtnsn]

Many, if not most ambulances are operated by private companies. If you live in an area where your city or county FD operates them; bonus. The level of professionalism is much higher. If he was running code (violating traffic regulations/emergency operation) but without lights and siren then he was violating the vehicle code of most states. Add in the contempt of cop that you mentioned then I would assume that there was no emergency and the Officer was justified in the stop and good for him for doing it. I've seen a couple of horrendous crashes involving ambulances, not pretty at all.

[the1911fan]

No lights and sirens means you have to drive like everyone else, even with lights and siren activated you have to excercise due care when violating a traffic control device/ or other traffic law

[ZDL]

sorry guys. Link to video added. I'm an idiot and forgot to do it first time around.

[Safetyhit]

Anyone know the full details on this?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80665933/

From what I understand, ambulance wasn't running lights and sirens, failed to yield, EMT driver flicked LEO off, LEO stops the rig, rear paramedic gets out and starts to argue.

I can't imagine pulling over an ambulance. They don't always run lights with patients. Just like we don't always run lights going to a call. I imagine if an ambulance pulled some crazy traffic infraction in front of me then flicked me off; I would probably follow it to where it was going and have a chat when it was appropriate to do so and/or just get the rig ID and see what was up with supervisors.

Glad we have good relationships with all our medics.



A sane, sensible post from an LEO. Thank-you for your good judgment. Some seem to differ.

[CryingWolf]

So the trooper, with lights and siren, gets to where he was going and decides "nothing going on here I'll go harass the EMT".

I think just turning over the dash cam video to the EMT company might have worked out a little better.

Boy without the internet where else would we get our entertainment?

[ZDL]

So the trooper, with lights and siren, gets to where he was going and decides "nothing going on here I'll go harass the EMT".

I think just turning over the dash cam video to the EMT company might have worked out a little better.

Boy without the internet where else would we get our entertainment?

Oversimplification and incorrect from my pov.

[NinjaMedic]

While I think that there was poor judgement and attitudes on all sides of this issue at the end of the day the officer put a persons life in jeopardy. His actions could have directly or indirectly increased the morbidity and/or mortality of this patient. We all take an oath to "serve and protect" or similar and this officer neither served nor protected the patient. Hindsight is twenty twenty however I fail to understand what his thinking was behind not addressing this issue after the transfer of patient care at the medical facility. How was he planning on providing medical care to the patient with the paramedic in handcuffs in the back of a squad car. We transport critical patients everyday without using lights and sirens. Critical doesn't necessarily require time-sensitive interventions and in some cases the added anxiety of the lights and sirens can lead to a worse outcome for the patient. You have to have a damn good reason to run code when your partner riding in the back of what amounts to a Uhaul truck. What would have happened if this patients condition had deteriorated with no one monitoring her? I dont have all the answers but I see this whole thing as disturbing and the height of unprofessionalism on all sides. See below for the other side of the story.

Medical Crew's Incident Report (http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/blogs/Ambulance_Incident_Reports%5B1%5D.pdf)

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Surprised it took this long to surface here. I saw a bunch of the interviews, and the paramedic in back says that the driver didn't flip the LEO off, but just did a raised hand "What the hell" type move. It was implied though that the driver and the LEO know each other and it didn't seem that they were fast freinds.

Something is funny, I think it is prior animosity between the driver and the LEO. I've heard the cop say that he didn't know their was a patient in the back, which to me makes it even worse, since you can hear the paramedic telling him at least twice. He was not in the listening mode.

I did hear that there was a female in the LEO car when he passed the ambulance, but it seems she wasn't there for the stop?

I think the really dangerous part is that the family of the patient starts to mill around. A cop arresting the driver and paramedic is going to have some irrational and agitated family members on his hands.

I don't know how long the cop was on the ambulances tail, but there was a car in front of the ambulance that he had to go around to pull over.

Not a pretty sight. What should have been a "Were you aware that...Oh you have a patient in back" became a brawl.

[CryingWolf]

Oversimplification and incorrect from my pov.

Yeah, it is always a good thing to start a little mini riot, at least you already have an ambulance on the scene.:eek: This was a train wreck pure and simple.

[rob_s]

Couple of things as I understand it about that.

First is that it was a private ambulance company and not a municipal one. Second is that the reason they weren't running lights and sirens and (at least the way it works in a lot of this state) the reason it was a private company to begin with was that it wasn't any kind of emergency call and they were just transporting her from one place to another.

I once drove a Honda Civic under a semi on I-75. The ambulance that responded was a municipal one and they hauled my ass, lights and sirens, to a redneck bandaid station in the middle of nowhere. Once that place got me stitched up and made sure I was generally ok, a private company toted me from there to a specialized hospital a few hours away. That was no lights, no sirens, and frankly they could have taken me the following day without any issue. I've been in other situations, or had friends/family that were, where the same thing has been true.

All of that said, I think the trooper in the video should have just came back, followed them, and had a chat with the driver when he got where he was going. From the way he was addressing the driver it sounded like they knew each other, and it also sounded like all he was interested in doing was having a chat. The lunatic in the back, and the ghetto-fabulous dramatical family, escalated things quickly and the trooper at that point didn't help the situation.

[TWR]

My take after seeing the troopers dash cam video, is there was no safe place to pull over. The law doesn't say I must get over NOW, it says if it's safe. They were on a highway going up a slight grade with no shoulder, the trooper passed them and all should have been well.

Trooper was in the wrong for choking the EMT and the state is in the wrong for giving him a paid vacation.

[John_Wayne777]

Anyone know the full details on this?


I don't, but it looks to me like a dick measuring contest.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I don't, but it looks to me like a dick measuring contest.

+1 on that. When that happens, the brain gets too small to measure.

[ToddG]

The team "chief" says there is a patient in the car multiple times.

A man on the scene tells the Trooper repeatedly that his wife is in the ambulance being transported to a hospital.

The Trooper keeps saying "you weren't running code." One of the ambulance folks should have gone into the cab, turned on the lights, and told the Trooper that now they're running code and he's interfering because of "failure to yield" and "making gestures."

He also opens the back of the emergency vehicle knowing there is a patient there; I'd think there are some privacy & safety/health issues with that. I suppose he could excuse it by saying he was checking her condition or something. Still, given the short amount of time, the distance, and his attitude during the "check" that would be a stretch unless he's the world's most psychic paramedic on top of being a Trooper.

I have as close to zero tolerance for contempt-of-cop as anyone, but in this case, watching that video, I see a LEO who is clearly irrational.

Also, if he's going to get into an incident, he needs to run his wipers so there isn't bird shit on the windshield right where the dashcam is pointing. Talk about adding insult to injury ...

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

How close does he come to smacking that red pickup at the very end of the tape?

Actually, I've seen people do far more slow and stupid things when cop cars come with their lights going. If that had just been a regular driver and the cop had comeout with that attitude and language, I would assume that is not the standard way to do it?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090621_12_A1_Inthis308813&archive=yes

There is white-on-white crime, there is black-on-black crime, and then there is dickhead-on-dickhead crime. It looks like two people have a history of not playing well with others.

[glockshooter]

Being an LEO I can see both sides of the picture. It seemed the trooper had some severe tunnel vision, and the patient should have been cared for before the other stuff was handed.

Now I would like to point out that there is some BS in the statements the EMTs wrote. How is it that a person facing rearward as he said able to say what gesture the driver made? Didn't he say he was loking out the back. Then he said he did not hear a siren yet he heard the PA as the tropper passed? The driver claimed he did not see the trooper coming but was able to stated in feet how far away the tropper was from the rear of the ambulance. He conveniently added there was a car driving erratically directly in front of him.

I bet there was a whole lot more going on than the EMTs wanted to admit to, but in the end the person that was truly done a dis-service was the female in the ambulance. Also there was plenty of opportunity for the ambulance to slow and pull over to the should. If these EMTs were truly victims why make up BS.

I bet if you were getting robbed or shot at you would have thought there was plenty of room fo rthe ambulance to pull over.

[brit]

Lots of EMS units do not run Code for various reasons.

One reason is patient comfort. If it determined a patient is having a heart attack or some problem that can be exacerbated by stress, then the unit is encouraged to run without lights and sirens

[ZDL]

I don't, but it looks to me like a dick measuring contest.

Agree.


Yeah, it is always a good thing to start a little mini riot, at least you already have an ambulance on the scene. This was a train wreck pure and simple.

I REALLY don't want to be a dick here but I'm going to be clear. No one is disagreeing that it was a train wreck. Your first pass was an oversimplification and useless to the conversation. You followed suit a second time here. Stop trolling. :cool:


It seemed the trooper had some severe tunnel vision,

Exactly.

Last thoughts: The paramedic getting out of the back upon first contact didn't help the situation. I wonder what would have happened if the paramedic hadn't got out and started asserting his authority. Sometimes, shutting up is the best way. The paramedic in the rear could have easily taken a few seconds to see how long the stop was going to last before jumping out and doing his thing. Sometimes thumping your chest, even if you are in the right, isn't the best policy. That is evident by watching the trooper. My point, paramedic didn't help the situation. He wasn't as concerned about his patient as he made vocal. He was just as intent at being "right" as the trooper was. Like Johnwayne said, dick measuring contest.

In any case, I'll state again, I can't imagine pulling over an ambulance.

[eightmillimeter]

My opinion changed twice as I watched three different versions of this video.

The first one I saw was a clipped version of the dash cam footage on MSNBC.com that only showed the confrontation itself, at that point I thought the trooper was good and the medic was the problem.

The second clip I saw was the more famous cell phone video shot by a family member of the patient on board. Even seeing the famous "chokehold" and the action that prompted it I still thought the medic deserved it.

When the full dash cam video came out I watched it several times. This time I changed my opinion because the trooper was the problem.

As the trooper was running lights and siren, he comes up behind the ambulance at around 100 miles an hour. I used the video and timed that he was only really behind the ambulance for about 10 seconds from the time he came up to the time he passed (not bad at all considering the people in normal small cars with excellent vision that don't react to lights or sirens for much much longer..... I speak with experience on that fact). After passing the ambulance the trooper says something on the radio (to the ambulance) to the effect of "looks like you need to watch your mirrors" but sounds like he is not really upset.

The trooper calls as he gets on scene to his "ermergency" call and doesn't say a word to anyone. 20 seconds later he is chasing down the ambulance. I'm assuming the "gesture" whatever it was occurred as the ambulance passed the trooper as he was parked at the scene.

REGARDLESS of what the gesture was or was not, that trooper was on the path straight to a lose-lose situation as soon as he got back in his car to chase down that ambulance. HE COULD HAVE AND SHOULD HAVE JUST LET THEM GO BY AND FINISH WHAT HE STARTED WHEN HE GOT OUT WITH THE COUNTY! I can't stress that enough.

A recent incident involving Des Moines police officers was all too similar. They actually stopped a car that failed to yield to their lights and siren while en route to an emergency call. They just stopped responding to the call to do this traffic stop and another available unit took their place on the call. That still isn't the problem.

My problem is when you stop a car that doesn't yield to your own emergency equipment, you are ALREADY pissed because "THAT ASSHOLE" didn't yield to YOU! You are already upset at them and want to naturally chew some ass for them getting in your way in the first place. The attitude is already charged and you're likely to say some really dumb things. If you write a ticket, no matter what you say, its going to come off as personal because they got in "your" way.

In the example from Des Moines the officers got into a fight they couldn't avoid because they were already mad and couldn't act rationally. The people in the car escalated and the officers had to use a lot of force and there were some pretty bad injuries to one of the subjects. Long story short they both ended up resigning about two weeks ago.

Here, and I'm assuming in OK too, failure to yield to an emergency vehicle is a simple traffic offense. The only time I use it is when an ambulance or something goes by me and I see some moron stop on the inside shoulder (or in the lane itself) and act like a moron when they try to get back on the highway. I simply explain to them they need to pull to the right if possible because that where everyone expects them to move as an emergency vehicle approaches.... and even at that I usually just write a warning unless they do something really dumb.

As much as I like to support other LEO's, I have to say he stepped on his own dick by getting into a situation that nobody could win. Maybe there's other factors like the fact he just got back from Iraq, but he needs some time off minimum to get back on focus. I'm fairly certain he was probably a well respected trooper before the incident but this whole things doe a great job of showing why we need to be impartial. When you get "personally" involved in any situation it is very hard to look like you were looking out for the best outcome for everyone involved. Period.

[ThirdWatcher]

That trooper is waaaaaaaaaaay outa line.

[NinjaMedic]

Just throwing this out there, since common sense obviously didn't prevail, does the penal code in any state differentiate between emergency vehicles? I.E. an ambulance has right of way over a fire apparatus, or a police vehicle has right of way over an ambulance. In Texas an emergency vehicle is an emergency vehicle. I can also say that if a police officer stoped our vehicle I would get out of the back as well and find out what was going on thinking there was an emergency involving the cop, or perhaps he had information about the patient that we needed to know. Partners are partners, we are one brain, one crew, all that touchy feely nonsense. If something is going down, we are both involved, both implicated, both responsible. I drive a 102" wide ambulance, with a diesel engine, wearing a headset designed to block out almost any noise so that I can communicate with my partner without my own siren interfering. Watching the video I think he yielded as quickly if not quicker than I would expect since it is almost impossible to see what is directly behind the ambulance with out using a reverse camera. I guess I am spoiled in my area in that all public servants are treated as equals. If an officer in our area tried to give an on duty firefighter or paramedic a traffic citation I think they would be laughed out of the department by the rest of the officers.

[Gutshot John]

The Medic was out of line when he flipped the guy off. The LEO's reaction however put him clearly out of bounds.

Just because a paramedic decides to act like a jerk doesn't mean you don't act professional. There is no reason to use a chokehold on another Public Safety professional. Smile and wave and then go bitch to his supervisor.

We don't always run code 3 for various reasons but local ordinances may vary.

Even on code 3 you don't have a right to run stoplights. You go through that stoplight, even with lights/sirens and have an accident it's still your fault.

That said I get really pissed when LEOs think that their lights mean they don't have to wait at a traffic light when there is no emergency. If an ambulance did that they would probably be fired.

[JWNathan]

A few guys were talking about this at work today actually. Glad I checked out the video first then read what everyones thoughts are. In my uneducated opinion. that could have turned out very bad for that LEO, aggitated family members all around him like that.
-Jesse

[ThirdWatcher]

If I got mad everytime someone flipped me off, I woulda stroked out in 1985 or so. A couple weeks ago, a 4-5 year old boy (surrounded by his family of gang-bangers) flipped me off. Normally I just wave back (with ALL my fingers) but this time I couldn't help but laugh. Big deal!!!

I'm not passing judgment on this trooper in general (because traffic LE is a stressful job) but he was out of line in this case. The paramedic that got out of the back struck me as a reasonable man and he didn't deserve the way he was treated... normally, "a gentle answer turns away wrath" so I don't know what happened in this case.

Based on my experience I would bet this video has been reviewed by the other 48 state traffic agencies (as a training tool).

[Honu]

KARMA

sadly it might be when the officer is in need of help he will get that ambulance on scene first !!

lets hope the ambulance guys are more professional than the cop :) if that happens

[Irish]

UPDATE: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/23/oklahoma.trooper.suspended/index.html

(CNN) -- An Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper was suspended Wednesday for five days without pay following a highly publicized scuffle with a paramedic in Okfuskee County in May, according to the Highway Patrol.


This is an image from a video that captured an Oklahoma trooper's scuffle with a paramedic in May.

The incident, which was caught on dash-camera and cell-phone video, showed Trooper Daniel Martin pulling over a Creek Nation ambulance for a traffic-stop violation. During the incident, Martin is heard repeatedly using profanity and twice getting into a scuffle with one of the paramedics.

Both paramedics and family members of the patient in the ambulance informed Martin several times by there was a patient inside, but he did not allow the paramedics to continue to the hospital while the video continued.

In a news conference Wednesday, Oklahoma Highway Patrol Captain Chris West said Martin "failed to recognize that it would have been more reasonable and appropriate to immediately allow the ambulance to continue to the hospital once he understood there was a patient onboard the ambulance." Watch the confrontation »

West also said Martin had "probable cause to make the traffic stop and justification to arrest the paramedic for obstructing a police officer" but that the incident "resulted in conduct unbecoming an officer."

Martin's attorney, Gary James of Oklahoma City, did not immediately return a phone call from CNN.

In a disciplinary letter sent to Martin, Oklahoma Public Safety Department Commissioner Kevin Ward, concluded that the "disregard for the welfare of the patient [justified] severe discipline."


Martin will also be required to take an anger assessment, West said. The trooper had no previous discipline action in his record, according to West.

On Tuesday, the paramedic involved in the scuffle, Maurice White, filed a lawsuit against Martin in federal court claiming his civil rights were violated.

[ZDL]

***********

[geminidglocker]

Sorry in advance to all the brave men and women on the police force. That cop is a total F*&kface. THAT, is what you call an LEO "Acting Stupidly" If I was the judge at the assault hearing, I'de side with the paramedic. JMHO.:eek: