View Full Version : "That Guy" in EFR class
I'm about 2/3 of the way through the American Red Cross Emergency First Responder program. This past Saturday, we had an incident in class. Hopefully, some of the experienced folks here can offer insight and advice.
History: "That Guy" is Indiana Jones, so nicknamed because he's clearly desperate to get out into the world and have some hairy adventures. He's already been through First Aid, CPR, and perhaps some other ARC programs. This is a guy who now has three bags full of medical gear in his trunk and has admitted that he's been "patrolling" some of the major highways in the Baltimore area. He claims he's stopped to help 200-300 people so far. This is the guy who is constantly shouting out answers to every question the teacher asks so we all know he's the smartest. This is the guy who interrupts the teacher to give other students direction during practicals. This is the guy whose neck I'm going to snap before the class is over.
Incident:
In the morning, we are taught how to backboard a potential spinal injury. During the exercises, Indiana scrapes his knuckles and begins to bleed rather profusely. Luckily, one of the students (a full time nurse) sees it immediately and tells him to back away. Indiana patches himself up, puts on a pair of rubber gloves, and continues with the class. We all felt ok with that.
In the afternoon, we do our first blind practical: team walks into the room, instructor is on the ground simulating multiple simultaneous injuries.
Instructor/victim/patient is also chewing gum. So during the "secondary survey" -- which Indiana Jones is doing -- he asks her to open her mouth, at which point he goes to remove the gum. She clearly tells him, gloves or no gloves, he's not sticking his bleeding hand into her mouth. While all this is going on, we've put her on the backboard, I've splinted her lower left leg, another student has splinted her right arm, etc.
So the teacher is basically immobilized and trying to watch what we're doing.
Indiana Jones, out of nowhere, stands up and while hovering over all of us, he takes off his gloves, removes the bandages from his hand, and "looks to see if he's still bleeding." :eek: Apparently, when the instructor said he couldn't put his hand in her mouth, he decided he should check to see if he was really still bleeding. Seriously.
So I happen to look up as he's doing this and yell "STOP" ... but he keeps on doing what he's doing. He manages to get some blood on the pants leg of the student holding stabilization at the head (we hadn't done the pads or head straps yet) before everyone else catches up to what's happening and he's made to go away.
We immediately get the instructor released from the straps and everyone takes a break to wash up and check themselves. When we come back, the instructor says we'll do another scenario and this time I'm to be the team leader. I flat out refuse to have Indiana Jones on my team. I then walk over to the backboard with the instructor and we check it for blood. Sure enough, there are a few small drops of blood on it. She puts on some gloves to clean it off but I suggest we skip the backboard for the scenario until someone can really disinfect it.
It was right about then that we realized Indiana Jones was re-bandaging himself back at the table he was sharing with another student, potentially contaminating not only the table but this other students' personal effects.
The instructor, realizing the entire situation was out of control, sent everyone home.
I spoke with her after class and she is trying to juggle the fact that Indiana is now all butt hurt (my words, not hers) with the fact that most of the rest of the class doesn't want to get within 10 feet of him. My advice -- and perhaps this was off base since this is way out of my lane -- was to treat Indiana like any other professional rescuer she would have dealt with while she was at Johns Hopkins or down post-Katrina or whatever. Would she have taken that guy aside and read him the riot act? I assume so.
So my real question is this, assembled medical experts: how much lime do I need to decompose a 300# body?
Jay Cunningham
06-22-09, 09:53
Yikes.
Blood borne pathogens are nothing to trifle with. We had a guy disassembling a wooden pallet a few years back and a board with a long staple popped out and right into a big vein on his arm. Of course when he pulled it out we had a geyser. We tracked his blood trail across the operating deck into a small office where bystanders were standing around *eating pizza*. I got those morons out of there pretty quickly... "yes, I'd like pepperoni, mushrooms and hepatitis please"...
:rolleyes:
Derek_Connor
06-22-09, 10:18
300lb Body needs 43.234lbs of Lime.;)
In all seriousness though, this guy does sound like darwin needs to pay him a visit.
On the flip side, and do not take this the wrong way, I am surprised the instructor cancelled the class for that day. While I would never sign up for someone bleeding on me, my clothes, any of my personal property, I'd assume there were 10+ people there for this class? All paying (or employer paid)? Thats alot of time off/scheduled out of office training etc that is now put off to another day.
Its a shame he couldn't have been dismissed for the asshat he was, and you guys could of used the proper universal precautions and continued on with the training.
I crossed paths with a guy like this about a year ago. He was a large man, very book smart, very annoying, and could not stop talking about his CPR certification. He was trying to get over to Iraq as a contractor/operator with CPR certification.
Is his first name Pat/Patrick by any chance????
Derek -- There are only six people in the class due to attrition, etc. I don't blame the instructor for cutting class short. Many of the other students were clearly agitated and she had her own issues to deal with ... she was, after all, the person who was strapped down to the board Indiana was bleeding on.
We have four more days of class and I'm confident we'll cover everything we need to.
Glock-Fu -- Names are withheld to protect the innocent and/or stupid.
Brasilnuts
06-22-09, 11:46
Do you know a pig farmer?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBvCPTK1MmY
Sounds like the guy needs some remedial instruction regarding bloodborne pathogens and universal precautions. He either doesn't understand as well as he believes, or he thinks the rules don't apply to him. Either one is unacceptable.
Someone probably needs to get into his face and tell him unequivocally that his behavior is unacceptable and that if he wants to continue, he needs to not only demonstrate that he understands the seriousness of potential contamination via blood. He also needs to confirm and demonstrate that he understands that yes, the rules do apply to him, and that he will adhere to the standard universal precaution procedures without exception.
I'd give him one and only one more chance.
Derek_Connor
06-22-09, 11:59
Derek...
We have four more days of class and I'm confident we'll cover everything we need to.
Ahhh...that does help. Hopefully the pan out to be better days..
As an instructor I give them a little heart to heart about participation and standards of conduct in my class, after that I throw them out of the course.
As a student, even though I have been through some of the most advanced training the military medical establishment has to offer I still keep my mouth shut and participate in the class as if I don't know anything more than how to put on a band-aid.
It detracts from the learning of others and also makes some people less likely to take any further training.
Sounds like your instructor is not in control of their own class, too bad.
There will be a critique form for the course at the end, please fill it out and address any concerns you have. They are reviewed by the Chapter and National Offices to determine instructors fitness.
Sounds like your instructor is not in control of their own class, too bad.
I don't feel that way, nor do any of the other students from what I can tell. As an instructor myself, I can sympathize with her situation.
Unless you have a 1:1 teacher:student ratio, you can't watch every single person every single moment. That's why you make sure your students understand the safety guidelines and you empower them to take action if someone starts to violate safety protocols. That's what we do on a hot range, and that's what she did (though I'm sure she sees it in different terms) with this class.
She's not a drill sergeant and Indiana definitely isn't a boot. While I'd love to see her eject him (or make him run laps), it's not likely to happen so long as she feels he's salvageable.
So my real question is this, assembled medical experts: how much lime do I need to decompose a 300# body?
This isn't the right question for someone with a JD to ask. The proper question is how do you make it justifiable so you don't need the lime?
You could recommend that he take some shooting courses with Tactical Response. :D
(Bad Ed, Bad Ed)
forget the lime, go for remote location and extreme high temp flames----- what body?
Robb Jensen
06-22-09, 16:40
Isn't it lye not lime?
Lime is for margaritas.
Heavy Metal
06-22-09, 17:44
You could recommend that he take some shooting courses with Tactical Response. :D
(Bad Ed, Bad Ed)
I LOLed!!!!!!:D
I recommend he take their 'Combat Photography' class!!
Heavy Metal
06-22-09, 17:47
Isn't it lye not lime?
Lime is for margaritas.
Quicklime aka burnt lime=Calcium Oxide. This is what you put on decomposing flesh to assist the process.
Lye is Sodium Hydroxide.
Isn't it lye not lime?
Lime is for margaritas.
Actually, FWIW - either will SLOW the decomposition process of a buried DB. And - very few fires burn long enough or hot enough to get rid of a body.
jm
caustic soda is much effective. 55gal barrels are easy to come by as well.
Todd, its funny you mention this, because I took an Emergency Care Attendent (First Responder) class and we also had a village idiot. However, even our idiot didn't commit BSI crimes as severe as yours.
And of course, this guy didn't pass the class.
We covered childbirth today.
Guess who drives around with an OB kit in his trunk?
Does this joker have a job?
So my real question is this, assembled medical experts: how much lime do I need to decompose a 300# body?
I teach in the fire/EMS service, met "that guy" (if I had a nickel...), and sympathize.
We have three locals that show up to every training event. All three answer every question, know everything, have done everything, ask everything in spite of it, and have war stories aplenty from their years of service, despite having low individual call volume.
They're plentiful.
No offense to the fine folks at ARC, but they seem to congregate there. ARC classes are open enrollment, widely available, low cost, and cognitively accessible to the lowest common denominator. As it should be, but they get more riff-raff as a result.
Unfortunately, higher HQ allows...actually requires...more tolerance of these types because they add reportable stats, pay on time, and show up in the field. Single voices complaining to HHQ are louder than they would be in other venues or pursuits.
There are ways to give them tasks or divert them so that they have less opportunity for input. I like to make them my training mannequins. They get the attention they crave, but I can more easily focus it where I need it to go. Having them wear an O2 mask helps keep them quiet, but you obviously can't do it all week.
Good news on your BBP contamination: Transmission rates for exposures that are "not significant exposures" (as defined) are virtually nonexistent. Little comfort, but it might help. Get your shots, some 1:100 bleach dilution or some quat, and you'll be fine.
exkc135driver
06-23-09, 12:30
I know little-to-nothing about first aid (and in fact did not know that blood was so dangerous, so clearly I need to start taking courses), but as an instructor in a few things and student in many things, I do know a little about Indy and his many cousins.
There isn’t a lot you can do about the guy whose opinion of his skills/knowledge vastly exceeds his actual abilities. What this guy is actually trying to do is teach the class. He knows he can’t do that, so he makes sure that he is the first to answer every question, volunteer for every assignment, and generally attempt to make himself the center of attention. As an instructor, I have been known to politely ask him, with a smile on my face, to give the others an opportunity to participate. As a student I have on rare occasion in class looked him directly in the eye and said in a loud voice, “Indy, we all know you know it all, but the rest of us are here to learn, so how about shutting up and letting the rest of us get in a word edgewise?” That tactic has never made me popular with the Indies of this world, and generally results in me being rebuked by the instructor (who suddenly realizes that he should have said/done something several classes ago), but it achieves the desired result. For a while, anyway.
If this bozo is “patrolling” your local roads, I hope that Maryland hasn’t enacted a Good Samaritan law.
I had his sister in my class. 100 lbs. overweight, slightly older than me even, and a complete pain in the butt. When the younger folks, especially women, were doing scenarios, she'd roll her eyes at the slightest misstep, talk to them like they were idiots, and then when we were doing exercises in class (ie: recognizing things like shock in a patient) she'd come up with disease diagnoses that would make Dr. House proud (cause they expect basic students to not only diagnose, but probably treat rare genetic illnesses, right?) We constantly got to hear her tales of brilliance and valor in her daytime medical assistant job.
Funny thing is, she failed part of her final..because she doesn't "do well under pressure."
:rolleyes:
SeriousStudent
06-23-09, 17:40
We covered childbirth today.
Guess who drives around with an OB kit in his trunk?
Yipes!!! :eek:
That class must be like watching a train wreck. You know it's going to get ugly, but you cannot tear your eyes away. :(
Good news on your BBP contamination: Transmission rates for exposures that are "not significant exposures" (as defined) are virtually nonexistent. Little comfort, but it might help. Get your shots, some 1:100 bleach dilution or some quat, and you'll be fine.
Understood. It wasn't so much the odds as the unmitigated stupidity of how he risked everyone's health. If I'd been paying attention to my "patient" who'd supposedly just taken a header out of a 3-story window instead of watching Indy, we could have all been rained on. I'm not worried that I was contaminated. I'm worried that next time I may be contaminated.
I know little-to-nothing about first aid (and in fact did not know that blood was so dangerous, so clearly I need to start taking courses), but as an instructor in a few things and student in many things, I do know a little about Indy and his many cousins.
Ditto. The thing I like about what I teach is that it's put-up-or-shut-up very early in the process. The first thing I do in a class, before talking about how-to or why-to, etc., is give a shooting test. Which I demo first. So everyone has a fair idea of where we are in relation to one another on the skill scale.
I still get the occasional "but my way is tactical'er" but otherwise, the Indianas of the world tend to weed themselves out pretty quickly.
What this guy is actually trying to do is teach the class. He knows he can’t do that, so he makes sure that he is the first to answer every question, volunteer for every assignment, and generally attempt to make himself the center of attention.
You hit the nail right on the head with that. At one point, the instructor actually told him to sign up for the instructor certification program if he wanted to teach the class so badly. The next time we met, his brain translated that into, and I quote: "[Instructor] even thinks I should get my certification and start teaching this class."
exkc135driver
06-24-09, 10:27
At one point, the instructor actually told him to sign up for the instructor certification program if he wanted to teach the class so badly. The next time we met, his brain translated that into, and I quote: "[Instructor] even thinks I should get my certification and start teaching this class."
Some. People. Just. Don't. Get. It. (And never will.)
The goods news is, you have to put up with him ... I don't. :D
U At one point, the instructor actually told him to sign up for the instructor certification program if he wanted to teach the class so badly. The next time we met, his brain translated that into, and I quote: "[Instructor] even thinks I should get my certification and start teaching this class."
The key thing about "that guy," from everything I have seen and studied in National Geographic Magazine, is that they are completely oblivious to the fact that they are "that guy."
ignorance is bliss, stupid people are happy because they don't know they are stupid.
Too bad you have to have someone like this in a class where the majority of people are there b/c they want to help/do the right thing. My wife and I were EMT's about ten years ago and we met some wonderful, caring, good-natured people. Brother is a full-time fireman and he and his Firemen and LE friends are salt of the earth. I feel most LE, MIL, EMT's, First Responders, and Firemen are some of the best sorts of people one could hope to be around. Sucks when someone like this is there to spoil the scene.
Maybe you could drop a box of your massive stockpile on his foot?
So I get to class last night ...
One of the other students walks over to me with a shuffle of papers in his hand.
It was a print-out of this thread. :cool:
So I get to class last night ...
One of the other students walks over to me with a shuffle of papers in his hand.
It was a print-out of this thread. :cool:
Busted! Small internet, isn't it.
that's funny............ unless it was the "super hero, know it all".
Nope, it was fine. I wouldn't say anything here I wasn't willing to say in public, after all this is public.
Given the overwhelming direction of responses in this thread, I feel rather confident that my viewpoint is supportable. We're set in our 'final teams' for the test now, anyway, so Indy and I shouldn't need to interact anymore.
Gutshot John
06-25-09, 10:46
Sadly these people are all too common in EMS and unavoidable so I'd recommend learning how to handle them without making it a pissing match.
My favorite is the type that loves to photograph/document every horrible incident he comes across...while everyone else is moving TOWARDS the patient with gear to help, he's moving AWAY to go get his camera/camcorder whatever.
Baby Huey sounds like the guy who ND'd at a Roger's class almost shooting me and another guy next to me.
Did he have two pounds of metal (piercings) in his face?
Did he have two pounds of metal (piercings) in his face?
Nope. Normal guy, you wouldn't look at him twice if he was walking down the road.
Gutshot John
06-25-09, 14:03
Nope. Normal guy, you wouldn't look at him twice if he was walking down the road.
That's a good thing though they sound like the Blivet Brothers.
Keep your head down, only a few more days.
On a lighter side are you going to try wilderness first responder?
On a lighter side are you going to try wilderness first responder?
I'd like to. I believe that it would have a great deal of applicability to what my main concern is, which is someone getting hurt (whether a GSW or other) during a class where I might not have an AED, backboard, and half the NFL medical staff right around the corner.
I'd like to. I believe that it would have a great deal of applicability to what my main concern is, which is someone getting hurt (whether a GSW or other) during a class where I might not have an AED, backboard, and half the NFL medical staff right around the corner.
You've got the right idea.
In my experience, the overwhelming majority of open enrollment first-aid training impart a reliance upon equipment rather than promote the fundamental principles of field care. Support equipment can be easily found, adapted, or otherwise improvised to handle a wide variety of things. One cannot rub two sticks together and get an AED, but if you don't have a trauma dressing, you have socks, or pantyhose, or a belt, or...
WEMT and austere medicing programs and curriculums are excellent places to get the knowledge you seek.
Gutshot John
06-25-09, 14:25
I'd like to. I believe that it would have a great deal of applicability to what my main concern is, which is someone getting hurt (whether a GSW or other) during a class where I might not have an AED, backboard, and half the NFL medical staff right around the corner.
Precisely, it's one thing to have everything you need, quite another to have to use your training to improvise.
There is an old expression "the more you carry in your head, the less you carry on your back."
This guy sounds like he has an extreme case of "wanting to be somebody." I hope he doesn't kill someone in the process.
Precisely, it's one thing to have everything you need, quite another to have to use your training to improvise.
Actually, our instructor has been pretty good about that. At least for the level we're operating in, there isn't a whole lot that you couldn't do with scrounged materials. Especially if you're in a relatively urban/suburban setting or, in my case, always smart enough to keep a blow out kit with you.
Having said that, I've got a good friend who's "somebody" at Zoll and odds are there will be an AED in my trunk sooner or later.
SeriousStudent
06-25-09, 22:15
Actually, our instructor has been pretty good about that. At least for the level we're operating in, there isn't a whole lot that you couldn't do with scrounged materials. Especially if you're in a relatively urban/suburban setting or, in my case, always smart enough to keep a blow out kit with you.
Having said that, I've got a good friend who's "somebody" at Zoll and odds are there will be an AED in my trunk sooner or later.
That is good news - I hope you do obtain one. The stats I have read regarding AED's look encouraging.
I would politely echo Gutshot John and Skintop911's comments regarding the usefulness of the WEMT/WFR classes. Perhaps it was just because the persons taking those classes were better medical personnel, but I have found they tended to work quite well in the field.
Good luck on the rest of the class.
Gutshot John
06-25-09, 22:29
Having said that, I've got a good friend who's "somebody" at Zoll and odds are there will be an AED in my trunk sooner or later.
Unfortunately without a degree from McGyver University, your chances of improvising an AED are a bit slim.
Good for you that's a very good idea.
Having said that, I've got a good friend who's "somebody" at Zoll and odds are there will be an AED in my trunk sooner or later.
Heck, they'll be on LBE in a GP-small MOLLE pouch pretty soon. There are manufacturers cramming them down to the size of a blackberry. One in particular takes up less space than the pads and wires it uses. We'll see it soon, if the manufacturer decides which way to go on batteries.
There are some out now that aren't that small, but very size efficient. Phillips HeartStart, for example.
We've got Zolls on our ambulances. An even split of Zoll Plus and Lifepak 500s for PAD sites.
Our instructor recommended one but I don't recall what it's called. Basically, it sounded like "AED for Dummies." No pads, just a blanket-like covering that goes over the whole chest. If you need to perform CPR, it monitors timing and depth to tell you if you're doing that right or not. Probably not small, but I can make room for it in my trunk.
Next step is getting Kitchen Six Actual to take First Aid/CPR/AED so that if I have an attack, she can do something about it. Oh, and so she can help other people, too, I suppose.
CarlosDJackal
06-26-09, 13:31
My 2 cents worth. Sounds like the guy has shown that he has a complete disregard for the appropriate safety procedures that go with providing someone with medical assistance.
When I attended First Responders Training (more than 20-years ago!! :() one of the things they emphasized was how important it was for us to avoid doing further harm to the victim. They especially emphasized the need to avoid contaminating the patient with whatever contaminants we might have. It doesn't make much sense to bring someone back to life with CPR
This guy sounds like he would do more harm than good and if I were the instructor, I'd fail him. JM2CW.
Heavy Metal
06-26-09, 16:18
Unfortunately without a degree from McGyver University, your chances of improvising an AED are a bit slim.
Good for you that's a very good idea.
Improvise, schimprovise.
Just take two spark plug wires and fire her up!
Gutshot John
06-26-09, 17:05
Improvise, schimprovise.
Just take two spark plug wires and fire her up!
Video of "that guy". It gets really good at 1:33.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0jah3k77-w
We covered childbirth today.
Guess who drives around with an OB kit in his trunk?
That just made me laugh.
About "that guy". We had one in academy. Big secret squirrel in the military bullshit can't tell us cause its classified beyond top secret........ :rolleyes:
He actually argued with an academy instructor and instead of heeding the road signs of impending collision he just kept on going with his mouth. The instructor turned off the professionalism finally and said "Hey! Shut the **** up and stick your thumb in your mouth until I tell you otherwise you giant baby! That, or get out of my class and turn your shit in". Classic. Embarrassment and shame fixed what ailed him.
Regarding original situation:
This guy sounds like a typical blow hard. I teach at a university level (adjunct) and see this all the time, at least one per class. I tend to try and knock them down a peg without putting myself in any sort of situation that may result in me being reprimanded....
I am going to admit I have not been re-certified in several years, but if I was teaching this class my first question to this guy would be:
"Why didn't you ask me if I was capable of spitting the gum out, prior to sticking your fingers in my mouth?" If this didn't knock him down, then off to the corner...:)
Let's hope this guy has grown a little bit. I wouldn't want him to be my first responder, or the people I love in my life who have seizures. I don't want to have to dig this guys thumb out of their mouths...
I had my annual CAT scan at Hopkins yesterday and told my doc about this. He was flabbergasted that Indy wasn't ejected from the class. This is the same guy whose wife's aorta burst while they were at the dinner table two years ago and he was able to save her. Great doc. :cool:
As for the gum thing, the instructor was asked to spit it out and acted like she didn't hear or was ignoring the request. My guess is she was waiting for someone to coax her politely and when Indy said he was going to reach inside ... that's when things took an unlikely and bloody turn.
Really...
Considering that the victim is conscious creating a comfortable dialogue would be the first step. A finger sweep would be the absolute last step. This guy is going to either hurt someone, or get himself hurt.
I am taking an EMT-B course right now and I swear their is a PT test that requires that you field dress at at least 300 lbs...
I am taking an EMT-B course right now and I swear their is a PT test that requires that you field dress at at least 300 lbs...
Dammit, why did I just get a mental image of a fat Indiana Jones hanging from his ankles in the woods, with his skin flayed from the body and guts laying on the forest floor...
Hope I don't have to go through that in my EMT-B class this winter. :D
benthughes
08-04-09, 18:30
We covered childbirth today.
Guess who drives around with an OB kit in his trunk?
Probably the only way he'll ever get to see a vagina.
Telecomtodd
08-04-09, 19:46
Many years ago I was a dispatcher for a volunteer ambulance group. My mom was a politician and helped sponsor it and got it funded and equipped. Everyone was unpaid...but got their jollies helping others, or so they said. The group of EMTs went off the deep end volunteering more and more hours a week until it became rediculous. One husband and wife were practically living in the ready room, both pulling in excess of 80 hours a week - while one of them was drawing a disability income. It was bananas, and I had to get the hell out of there to keep my sanity or I was the one who was going to have a "brown 500". One of the EMTs was so gung ho that she ran for state office and won, and wound up being asked to oversee that state's Bureau of Prisons to get the nutcase out of the State Senate (that state shall remain nameless, and it isn't NC).
Seriously, I'm surprised your local chapter put up with this guy. He needs a talk with a local law enforcement professional to make him aware of his liabilities in "helping" people, be it civil or criminal. Either that, or suggest he locate his local volunteer ambulance corps... :D
One husband and wife were practically living in the ready room, both pulling in excess of 80 hours a week - while one of them was drawing a disability income.
Isn't it interesting how many members of volunteer agencies draw an income for partial or total disabilities?
Unfortunately, if you are planning on a career as an EMT you will come across many of these kind of people. They are obsessed with trying to impress people with their EMS knowledge and their imagined importance. They usually piss enough people off and tone themselves down or they will screw-up and get fired. You just can't have that kind of self-important loose cannon in EMS. I have been a paramedic for about 17 years and I've seen them come and I've seen them go
Bolt_Overide
11-08-10, 02:00
fortunately jackasses like that seem to darwin themselves eventually, well more often than not anyway. (unless they somehow manage to get elected to national public office... then all bets are off.)
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.