View Full Version : Why do you say that DPMS is junk?
Hey everyone, my name is Mark, I'm a new member to this site. I was just wondering why everyone, or alot of people say that DPMS is a junk rifle? I have a pretty standard DPMS M4. It is my first and, (for now), only AR-15. It has never given me any trouble, it has gone bang every time. I have shot alongside a Bushmaster 20" upper with a DPMS lower, and I was doing just as well, if not better than that fella. I suppose I just can't understand how yall can say that these rifles, all of the same design, and with interchangable parts, differ to the extent that many people have said they do. And I know the pistol in the pic is an M&P9mm and not a Glock. The reason it says Glock is because I recently got a Glock and there were pictures of it in the batch I uploaded off my phone and thats just what i named the folder. haha
Anyways, I was just curious. Thanks guys!
check out the stickied information threads.
What about em?
If you take the time to read through them, you will find the answers to your question.
Looks like a M&P in your pic not a Glock...:confused:
It really depends on what you will use your carbine for. If it is just for casual shooting, it's a good gun for the price. But if you are into serious shooting like going to a tactical class using in excess of 1000rds, or a duty gun for L.E., there are better options other than a DPMS. If it works good for you, great as long as you're happy with it.:D
decodeddiesel
06-24-09, 13:06
No HP/MPI testing of the barrel
May or may not be labeled 5.56...in actuality it is a .223 chamber
the bore may or may not be chrome lined
1/9" twist...not 1/7" twist
sub-standard steel used in barrel
No HP/MPI testing of bolt
Bolt carrier not properly staked
Castle nut not properly staked
May or may not have a mil-spec buffer tube
Wrong extractor insert
This is a partial list. Basically DPMS makes no effort to adhere to the TDP standards set forth by the DOD and widely accepted as "the standard" in building weapons intended for real world use.
Some things you can do:
Ask yourself, what is the intended purpose of this weapon?
If it is to go to the range a couple times a year and fire a couple hundred rounds of ammo in that time span then you should be fine.
If you are serious about taking formal instruction and participating in a high stress high round count class then you will need to make some changes so as to avoid potential problems and failures with your weapon. My advise? Sell your upper and purchase a complete upper from BCM or LMT with a new bolt/bolt carrier from the same.
Hey everyone, my name is Mark, I'm a new member to this site. I was just wondering why everyone, or alot of people say that DPMS is a junk rifle? I have a pretty standard DPMS M4. It is my first and, (for now), only AR-15. It has never given me any trouble, it has gone bang every time. I have shot alongside a Bushmaster 20" upper with a DPMS lower, and I was doing just as well, if not better than that fella. I suppose I just can't understand how yall can say that these rifles, all of the same design, and with interchangable parts, differ to the extent that many people have said they do. And I know the pistol in the pic is an M&P9mm and not a Glock. The reason it says Glock is because I recently got a Glock and there were pictures of it in the batch I uploaded off my phone and thats just what i named the folder. haha
Anyways, I was just curious. Thanks guys!
Couple things. First, you do not know what you do not know. Meaning that you have zero experience with any other AR platform (so you have nothing to compare your DPMS to). The other AR you mention is also considered "ok" at best. So you really have not compared your AR to a better one.
When you say that it goes "bang" everytime for you, how many times is that? How many carbine schools have you taken it through? How old is your AR and how many rounds have you got through it?
Have you reviewed Rob's chart yet to see why and how your AR stacks up again the other ones?? Just a quick hint, "parts is not parts!" Just because you can take parts out of your DPMS and install them in a Colt, does NOT mean that they are of the same quality (FYI).
C4
P.S. Welcome to the forum. Spend A LOT OF TIME READING.
SWATcop556
06-24-09, 13:16
As was suggested before, read the stickies at the top of both the AR general discussion and technical discussion pages. There is a wealth of information there and will answer most if not all of your questions. Depending on how you've run your DPMS so far, it may have functioned flawlessly for you. The vast majority of the issues you will hear about with DPMS may never manifest with you if you only shoot from a bench or use it to kill paper and beer cans. (There is nothing wrong with this either)
Just to list a few issues with DPMS:
1) Quality control has been uniformly poor across the board
2) Marked as a 5.56 chamber when it is acutually .223 (big difference in the two)
3) BCG are not properly staked
4) Improper extractor insert and spring
5) 1/9 barrel (an issue if you shoot rounds heavier than 62 grn)
6) Barrel steel is lower quality than TDP requires
7) Castle nut not properly staked
8) Incorrect FSB (on some I have recently seen) for a flat top receiver
9) Should run a H buffer
Those are just a few I can remember off the top of my head. This does not mean that your DPMS will not serve your needs. I would have my doubts about it making it through a high round count training class without some issues.
They just are not built like more high quality guns.
For example: I have a DPMS lower (LPK will be swaped out if I ever get around to it) and after only 300+/- rounds the hammer pin is already rotating and walking out.
Puffy,
The hammer pin is held in place by the "J" spring that sits inside the hammer. Take the hammer out and see if it is damaged or missing. If so, get a new one.
They just are not built like more high quality guns.
For example: I have a DPMS lower (LPK will be swaped out if I ever get around to it) and after only 300+/- rounds the hammer pin is already rotating and walking out.
Amen.
DPMS has great marketing but piss-poor quality control. From my direct, personal experience, I know that DPMS's barrels are rough, third-world quality tomato stakes. It makes me angry just thinking about it.
Their uppers, lowers, and parts in general have ragged tolerances. DPMS's products is not for serious shooters, those who might need to rely on their rifle in an emergency, or someone that wants value for their money.
Puffy,
The hammer pin is held in place by the "J" spring that sits inside the hammer. Take the hammer out and see if it is damaged or missing. If so, get a new one.
Thanks, I believe it is there but I'll check as soon as I get a chance. It sits inside the hammer, so it's different than the hammer spring?:confused:
Here is a post I started after being told by a local dealer about how DPMS is the very bestest and mostest mil spec rifle you can buy. The guy is a good dude, but his opinion is not shared by many outside of.....of.... his own head.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=29242&highlight=DPMS
It does appear that DPMS makes a ton of rifles and a ton of rifle parts, and I would assume that although they may not be the top tier company, like many others, they will do in a pinch. Not every dept and not every security contractor uses the top tier guns, many run Stag/DPMS/BushMaster or whatever brand you want to talk about, and many of those guns will fire a couple thousand rounds a year in training and not have dramatic failure rates.
In the end, if you could afford a Colt/DD/CDD or one of the other "top tier" rifles, your best off just going to that level. If you honestly can not afford it, or a good deal is laying in front of you for a lesser rifle, it will not be the end of the world. The sun will rise again tomorow and your creditors will still be calling.... nothing in your life will change.
Puffy,
Push your hammer pin out and look at the bottom of the hammer and you should see a round spring that goes up inside the hammer. Then look at the hole tha the pin passes though and it should protrude slightly into the hole. The center groove of the pin locks into that pin and that's what holds it in place.
Thanks, I believe it is there but I'll check as soon as I get a chance. It sits inside the hammer, so it's different than the hammer spring?
I know it doesn't have anything like that. Damn, I guess I'll be getting a new LPK sooner than I thought.
Not true. Most companies are using Colt followed by Bushmaster. Actually the Bushmasters have not been doing so well here and they are/ have broke down more so than the Colts. I have had nothing but headaches from our Bushmasters due to their corner cutting.
Here is a post I started after being told by a local dealer about how DPMS is the very bestest and mostest mil spec rifle you can buy. The guy is a good dude, but his opinion is not shared by many outside of.....of.... his own head.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=29242&highlight=DPMS
It does appear that DPMS makes a ton of rifles and a ton of rifle parts, and I would assume that although they may not be the top tier company, like many others, they will do in a pinch. Not every dept and not every security contractor uses the top tier guns, many run Stag/DPMS/BushMaster or whatever brand you want to talk about, and many of those guns will fire a couple thousand rounds a year in training and not have dramatic failure rates.
In the end, if you could afford a Colt/DD/CDD or one of the other "top tier" rifles, your best off just going to that level. If you honestly can not afford it, or a good deal is laying in front of you for a lesser rifle, it will not be the end of the world. The sun will rise again tomorow and your creditors will still be calling.... nothing in your life will change.
In the end, if you could afford a Colt/DD/CDD or one of the other "top tier" rifles, your best off just going to that level. If you honestly can not afford it, or a good deal is laying in front of you for a lesser rifle, it will not be the end of the world. The sun will rise again tomorow and your creditors will still be calling.... nothing in your life will change.
For some people, a rifle that fails to perform properly due to poor quality control is, as you said, not a big deal. These are kids and plinkers.
You don't have to be current military or a security contractor in Rahmdi to realize that quality matters in important ways when it comes to guns. It matters a hell of a lot more than it does for cars, boats, or TV's. Guns are important things. Guns can take lives. Guns can save lives.
Any adult male that takes American history seriously, and understands the reasons behind the 2nd Amendment realizes that, at some time during the useful lifetime of their gun, it may well need to be used for are more than just plinking or "huntin squirrels 'n sich" (name that quote). Maybe by them. Maybe by their son. Maybe by their grandson. Will your AR15 still be operating dependably when you, or your son, or your grandson needs to defend the family? At that critical moment, if it fails because of poor quality and third-rate Chinese parts, can you say "nothing in your life will change?"
DPMS is "use it till it breaks then toss it" junk, the Harbor Freight Tools of firearms. I'm ashamed to admit I own one. Gotta get rid of that POS.
For some people an AR is just a plaything to plink with end enjoy. They shoot a few hundred rounds through it several time a year. If it can do that they are happy. It will never be run through a class where 1,000+ rounds are put down range in 2 or 3 days. They will never push it hard and will be in bliss.
Many, probably most people here, want a rifle that is built to standards that make it capable of much more. They desire, and are willing to pay a little more for, a rifle that is capable of being pressed into battle if that where ever needed. Yes, it will probably never see a battle field. But if you going to have a rifle, why not have one that can handle extreme use, weather needed or not. I don't need a car that can go over 90 MPH, but it is nice to have a lot of extra HP in case you should ever need it.
If your happy with it, GREAT! Some others have run into issues when pushing them in a carbine course. Many here have learned an extra few hundred dollars will buy you a rifle capable of being taken anywhere and perform with less potential for issues.
citizensoldier16
06-24-09, 22:06
For some people an AR is just a plaything to plink with end enjoy. They shoot a few hundred rounds through it several time a year. If it can do that they are happy. It will never be run through a class where 1,000+ rounds are put down range in 2 or 3 days. They will never push it hard and will be in bliss.
Many, probably most people here, want a rifle that is built to standards that it would be capable of much more. They desire, and are willing to pay a little more for, a rifle that is capable of being pressed into battle if that where ever needed. Yes, it will probably never see a battle field. But if you going to have a rifle, why not have one that can handle extreme use, weather needed or not. I don't need a car that can go over 90 MPH, but it nice to have a lot of extra HP in case you should ever need it.
If your happy with you, GREAT! Some are other run into issues when pushing them in a carbine course. Many here have learned an extra few hundred dollars will buy you a rifle capable of being taken anywhere and perform with less potential of issues.
Well said Rojas! I couldn't have said it better myself.
KYPD- DPMS is the Harbor Freight of tools- what a great line. Turned wrenches for a while during college at J. Deere and couldn't believe the HF tools some guys bought for serious use. Paid the $$$, tool broke, paid more dough to the MAC guy or the Snap-On guy, both came regularly on pay day! I swear I should have bought stock in Snap-On just b/c of my own buying. Still have 'em, still tough.
I swear I should have bought stock in Snap-On just b/c of my own buying. Still have 'em, still tough.
Agreed...Snap-On tools are as addicting as the Black Gun itself for me. You can add DeWALT to the list.
Does DPMS make the .308 AR for Big Green / Remmy?? Just curious as to who....buddy of mine who I hunt with picked one up and had a 'range report' and wanted to know what I thought about them.
Blankwaffe
06-24-09, 23:28
"huntin squirrels 'n sich" (name that quote).
Thead hijack....
The "damn kid" in the movie "Outlaw Josey Wales"....that movie caused me to buy way too many cap-n-ball revolvers many moons ago.Still have and shoot the Walker Colts though.
HisDivineShadow
06-25-09, 00:12
Amen.
DPMS has great marketing but piss-poor quality control. From my direct, personal experience, I know that DPMS's barrels are rough, third-world quality tomato stakes. It makes me angry just thinking about it.
Their uppers, lowers, and parts in general have ragged tolerances. DPMS's products is not for serious shooters, those who might need to rely on their rifle in an emergency, or someone that wants value for their money.
DPMS uppers and lowers are actually the same as the ones of more reputable brands as well. Because most of these are made by a few manufacturers in the states and sold to all the various companies which are then giving the finishing touches and branded. Difference is what they put inside them.
RAM Engineer
06-25-09, 07:12
DPMS uppers and lowers are actually the same as the ones of more reputable brands as well. Because most of these are made by a few manufacturers in the states and sold to all the various companies which are then giving the finishing touches and branded. Difference is what they put inside them.
Just because two companies buy their parts from the same vendor, does not make those parts the same. The companies are the ones who set the acceptable quality levels for the parts they buy. Company "A" may have a more strict reject criteria than Company "B".
thumper4fun
06-25-09, 08:20
The vast majority of the issues you will hear about with DPMS may never manifest with you if you only shoot from a bench or use it to kill paper and beer cans. (There is nothing wrong with this either)
Just to list a few issues with DPMS:
1) Quality control has been uniformly poor across the board
2) Marked as a 5.56 chamber when it is acutually .223 (big difference in the two)
3) BCG are not properly staked
4) Improper extractor insert and spring
5) 1/9 barrel (an issue if you shoot rounds heavier than 62 grn)
6) Barrel steel is lower quality than TDP requires
7) Castle nut not properly staked
8) Incorrect FSB (on some I have recently seen) for a flat top receiver
9) Should run a H buffer
Those are just a few I can remember off the top of my head. This does not mean that your DPMS will not serve your needs. I would have my doubts about it making it through a high round count training class without some issues.
Not much can be done about 1, 2, 5 & 6 but can 3, 4, 7, 8 & 9 be addressed and corrected? If so, is this something an individual could do without a lot of expense and would this significantly improve the reliability of the DPMS? My neighbor has an AP4 and thus far he has put around 3000 rounds thru it without issue, but if these items could be corrected as a preventative measure I’m sure he would be willing to give it a go.
Again, reading the tacked knowledgebase threads is advised.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376
decodeddiesel
06-25-09, 09:59
Not much can be done about 1, 2, 5 & 6 but can 3, 4, 7, 8 & 9 be addressed and corrected? If so, is this something an individual could do without a lot of expense and would this significantly improve the reliability of the DPMS? My neighbor has an AP4 and thus far he has put around 3000 rounds thru it without issue, but if these items could be corrected as a preventative measure I’m sure he would be willing to give it a go.
Sell suspect upper and BCG and replace with BCM or LMT upper and BCG. Then replace commercial receiver extension with BCM mil-spec extension, add H buffer, properly stake castle nut, monitor lower components for failure.
The thread which rob_s linked to outlines most of these steps very well. Also see Grant's "A day in the life of a BM LE dealer" (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13532) thread.
DPMS = Doesn't Pass Military Spec.
As has been stated by several posters on this thread, there are lots of reasons for this.
KYPD- DPMS is the Harbor Freight of tools- what a great line. Turned wrenches for a while during college at J. Deere and couldn't believe the HF tools some guys bought for serious use. Paid the $$$, tool broke, paid more dough to the MAC guy or the Snap-On guy, both came regularly on pay day! I swear I should have bought stock in Snap-On just b/c of my own buying. Still have 'em, still tough.
Absolutely. Good tools are worth it. Snap-on of course, is first class. I was a gas-station mechanic in college, and inherited a few SO tools from an Uncle back then. 23 years later, I am still using them, while the consumer-grade tools I bought then (Sears, etc) are all broken and gone. I think SO tools are ridiculously over-priced, but the quality is there.
Harbor Freight's tools, like DPMS rifles, are not for serious work.
Thead hijack....
The "damn kid" in the movie "Outlaw Josey Wales"....that movie caused me to buy way too many cap-n-ball revolvers many moons ago.Still have and shoot the Walker Colts though.
Give the man a cigar!:p
IMO, lower tier guns are not even fit for a plinker.
Even a plinker should work 99.9%, 99.9% of the time.
I know it doesn't have anything like that. Damn, I guess I'll be getting a new LPK sooner than I thought.
You don't need a whole other LPK, just a J-spring. That said, no reason not to enjoy the fruits of a free-market economic system. ;)
Only reason I noiced that my hammer didn't have a J-spring in it when I was doing my lower up was that I had a USMC armorer's manual and a commercial manual open on the table in front of me. Being scared silly of dorking it up save me some headaches, it turns out.
Just remove your hammer from the lower and stick a J-spring (it's really a piece of stiff wire with a hook bent in the end of it, making a J-shape) into the bottom of the hammer in the channel provided. The guy I got the spring from put a slight lateral bend in it so that it wedges itself into the channel in the hammer, but somebody else can say as to whether or not that's necessary.
Riverine,
As long as the "J" spring is installed right it should be GTG. By the way where do they sell just a "J" spring? I wasn't aware that they came separate.
Also, does anyone know how to remove a "J" spring? I have tried several times and I was a NO GO at that station. I know you can use a punch through the hole, but I have heard that the spring may break off inside and possibly not be able to be removed.
You don't need a whole other LPK, just a J-spring. That said, no reason not to enjoy the fruits of a free-market economic system. ;)
Only reason I noiced that my hammer didn't have a J-spring in it when I was doing my lower up was that I had a USMC armorer's manual and a commercial manual open on the table in front of me. Being scared silly of dorking it up save me some headaches, it turns out.
Just remove your hammer from the lower and stick a J-spring (it's really a piece of stiff wire with a hook bent in the end of it, making a J-shape) into the bottom of the hammer in the channel provided. The guy I got the spring from put a slight lateral bend in it so that it wedges itself into the channel in the hammer, but somebody else can say as to whether or not that's necessary.
Pistola wrote: If it is just for casual shooting, it's a good gun for the price. But if you are into serious shooting like going to a tactical class using in excess of 1000rds, or a duty gun for L.E.
How is my shooting my rifle 5/6 times a year any worse than an L.E. rifle that sits in a gun lock in a cruiser 24/7?
In reality my rifle sees more use that one that is taken out and shot for qualifying, so if it functions every time I pull the trigger that should be an indication of reliability.
Yes the LE version must work first time every time, but so should my plinker and if it gets shot frequently it will have all the problems worked out.
I had two dpms rifles that worked well for me, both were purchased for relatively 'cheap' and both were subsequently sold for a nice profit a short while ago because
of an AR shortage in my area. I recently purchased a colt 6920 (after reading the various posts here)with the profits from the sale. I am an AR novice at best, but did notice somewhat better accuracy, handling, and reliability even given my limited experience. Am planning more training classes to better appreciate and utilize my new purchase, so far did one local carbine class and had no issues, more to follow:D
CaptainDooley
06-25-09, 14:09
Personally, if I pick up a rifle to defend my life or the life of loved ones (or even as part of my job if I were a LEO) I wouldn't want to take the chance that sub standard parts might not break this time.
If I'm at the range a broken part or getting the kinks worked out or whatever you want to call it is fine. Annoying, but fine. Getting a sight picture on a smelly bad guy is not the time for that.
Don't start a pissing match just because you can..... it is not good for the soul.
OK, me being a Stag/Bushmaster/Charles Daly/Charles Daly/Charles Daly owner, I understand what they are saying. I am going to enlighten you like I do with my children, I break things down to thier most simple terms.
Lets say your into.... watching DVD movies. You need a DVD player, they all look about the same and they all play DVD disks.
You go and see that you can buy a Daewoo DVD player for less money than you can buy a Toshiba or a Sony. Your pal tells you that the Toshiba or Sony plays the movie better, is true HD, and built in a clean room with only the best parts in Japan by expensive robots with the most precise solder joints. It will play every disk, play it perfectly, and do this for years.
The Daewoo he tells you will play almost all disks but it is not the same resolution and quality, it is built in an alley in korea with whatever marginal circuitry they can find to hand solder onto the PCBs, and they may possably last 2 months or as long as 10 years depending on your luck of the draw.
Now, are these things of the same quality? Is it worth saving a bit longer and getting the Toshiba or Sony?
The idea they are trying to get across (every 4-6 weeks when this comes up) is that you can buy a turd and polish it or you can buy a gem and just admire it. you can get a turd to shine pretty well, and you can proudly show your polished turd to others with even less polished turds.... and they will look upon you as if you were a god, for you made the turd shine in ways that they could not. But then, a man with a gem walks up and you realize that you could have been like him from the start.
Lets say you buy a Charles Daly DM-4LE. You do not need to stake anything, you have mil-spec coating, materials, buffer tubes.... everything is mil-spec or better. Nothing is compromised. Same with Daniel Defense, LMT, Colt. You buy it, and it is not a gamble on the quality of your gun. Yea, there may be examples of a Bushmaster or DPMS going 5,000 rounds with not one issue.... but there are many stories of them rattling themselves into a pile of junk as well. How many Colts or the others I mentioned have been proven to shake the gas key, let the stock spin loose, have improper feed ramps...any of it? Very few? Less than that? That is the point of the question you asked and of the comments against the brand.
I understand that it would be a day that sucked like no other if my "trusty" Bushmaster worked every day on the range, but one night at 2am I hear glass break and my front door opening... and I grab for the Bushmaster, go to the top of the stairs.... wait.... wait.... there it is.... coming up the first steps with what appears to be a shotgun......CLICK! My bushmaster just screwed the pooch hard, and my 3 kids are 10 feet away asleep! BOOM! His shotgun worked and blew the flesh off of my face and neck. I am taking my last breath as I turn my head to see my wife crying and looking into my dying eyes as she is being raped and my children are screaming and seeing it all.
No thanks brother. I can never afford to risk what I have on a Bushmaster or DPMS or even my Stag that is being sent in for repairs under warranty right now. I'll be reaching for the Charles Daly Defense.
Riverine,
As long as the "J" spring is installed right it should be GTG. By the way where do they sell just a "J" spring? I wasn't aware that they came separate.
Nothing has shifted after 1200 rounds, so I'm putting it in the GTG column.
In my case, a 'smith at a gun show in Fredericksburg just handed me one. What can I say? I'm very graceful in heels.
Not true. Most companies are using Colt followed by Bushmaster. Actually the Bushmasters have not been doing so well here and they are/ have broke down more so than the Colts. I have had nothing but headaches from our Bushmasters due to their corner cutting.
One of these days I think you should do a writeup on your experience with bushmasters since you seem to have experience with a large sample. To me it would be some hard evidence showing how the "just as good as colt" bushmaster can and does fail more than one thinks.
So since this thread is the current DPMS thread that is active here is a question for the gun smiths out there.
I recently found a "custom gun smith" in the Hudson Valley (will not reveal town), and I stopped by to see if he carried AR parts, and accessories. He is a dealer for several area police forces (given the area I am assuming state/county/city). He is the only local smith I have found.
I stopped by and he is a DPMS dealer only. He has one Colt with an A2 stock, and DPMS exclusively.
I went to ask about certain questions I have regarding upgrading my rifle. Since I have a pinned (NY LEGAL) stock I wanted to see about re-adjustment for my size, possibly the addition of a sling swivel ext (things I do not want to do myself because I don't want to break any laws). I also wanted to see if he could thread a barrel for a muzzle break since my barrel is not threaded.
Should I trust a gun smith that deals exclusively in DPMS?
decodeddiesel
06-25-09, 15:55
So since this thread is the current DPMS thread that is active here is a question for the gun smiths out there.
I recently found a "custom gun smith" in the Hudson Valley (will not reveal town), and I stopped by to see if he carried AR parts, and accessories. He is a dealer for several area police forces (given the area I am assuming state/county/city). He is the only local smith I have found.
I stopped by and he is a DPMS dealer only. He has one Colt with an A2 stock, and DPMS exclusively.
I went to ask about certain questions I have regarding upgrading my rifle. Since I have a pinned (NY LEGAL) stock I wanted to see about re-adjustment for my size, possibly the addition of a sling swivel ext (things I do not want to do myself because I don't want to break any laws). I also wanted to see if he could thread a barrel for a muzzle break since my barrel is not threaded.
Should I trust a gun smith that deals exclusively in DPMS?
I wouldn't. Maybe with the stock pinning/moving but not the barrel work. I would send your barrel to Steve at ADCO for the threading and pinning.
I understand that it would be a day that sucked like no other if my "trusty" Bushmaster worked every day on the range, but one night at 2am I hear glass break and my front door opening... and I grab for the Bushmaster, go to the top of the stairs.... wait.... wait.... there it is.... coming up the first steps with what appears to be a shotgun......CLICK! My bushmaster just screwed the pooch hard, and my 3 kids are 10 feet away asleep! BOOM! His shotgun worked and blew the flesh off of my face and neck. I am taking my last breath as I turn my head to see my wife crying and looking into my dying eyes as she is being raped and my children are screaming and seeing it all.
No thanks brother. I can never afford to risk what I have on a Bushmaster or DPMS or even my Stag that is being sent in for repairs under warranty right now. I'll be reaching for the Charles Daly Defense.
Excellent example! Even a child can follow it (at least that's what my wife insists I am everytime I buy a new WODAD (Weapon of Death and Destruction)).
In colonial times, depending on time and location, the badguy's were the Redskins, or the Frenchies, or the Lobsterbacks, or the bushwackers. A man's gun and his skill in using it were frequently all that stood between his loved ones and a sticky end, especially on the frontier. In our current politically-correct schools, mention is no longer made of the extremely high incidence of violent death from badguys in earlier times. Life was short, dirty and brutal. Back then, people took their guns very seriously indeed. Studies have been performed by scholars that show that, regardless of income level, nearly all adult white men in 1700's North America owned a firearm that cost the equivalent of 1 year's income. These weren't plinkers: they were at least the equal of the best arms in the world's best armies of the time. Remember, for the most part, King George's boys weren't beat by government-issued firearms, but they weren't beat by cheap plinkers either. Think about it.
Early Americans loved their guns. Screw baseball. Target shooting was the most popular sport until the 1920's. Professional target shooters were rock stars. Your love of guns is not an accident. It's an ancient survival impulse. It's genetic.
But back in the present day, despite ongoing wars, we live in a time of relative peace in the United States because wise men (sadly, not that felon Bill Clinton) made the decision that, if there's going to be a fight, best to do it in the bad guy's house. But too many in this country have too little common sense for this peaceful condition to last. The next enemy massing outside of town or coming up the stairs may or may not wear a uniform, and I don't know what color his helmet will be. And while I'm pretty certain he won't be a Iroquois warrior or a Japanese soldier, I guarantee you he will be every bit as brutal as a one if your gun malfunctions.
A honorable man has three primary duties:
1. Lead his family righteously.
2. Provide for his family.
3. Protect his family.
You lead by example and sacrifice using your moral compass.
You provide by gaining skills and tools and working diligently.
You protect with what? .... A plinker?... WTF is that! :confused::mad::confused:
I have no problem with "plinkers." I own lots of guns just for the fun of it. But every man should have at least one rifle he can absolutely rely on under any circumstances, the cost be damned. It won't cost anywhere near a year's income. Once that duty is taken care of, buy all the disposable toys you can afford. They throw old toasters into landfills; a few broken DPMS rifles won't be any worse for the environment.
Excellent example! Even a child can follow it (at least that's what my wife insists I am everytime I buy a new WODAD (Weapon of Death and Destruction)).
In colonial times, depending on time and location, the badguy's were the Redskins, or the Frenchies, or the Lobsterbacks, or the bushwackers. A man's gun and his skill in using it were frequently all that stood between his loved ones and a sticky end, especially on the frontier. In our current politically-correct schools, mention is no longer made of the extremely high incidence of violent death from badguys in earlier times. Life was short, dirty and brutal. Back then, people took their guns very seriously indeed. Studies have been performed by scholars that show that, regardless of income level, nearly all adult white men in 1700's North America owned a firearm that cost the equivalent of 1 year's income. These weren't plinkers: they were at least the equal of the best arms in the world's best armies of the time. Remember, for the most part, King George's boys weren't beat by government-issued firearms, but they weren't beat by cheap plinkers either. Think about it.
Early Americans loved their guns. Screw baseball. Target shooting was the most popular sport until the 1920's. Professional target shooters were rock stars. Your love of guns is not an accident. It's an ancient survival impulse. It's genetic.
But back in the present day, despite ongoing wars, we live in a time of relative peace in the United States because wise men (sadly, not that felon Bill Clinton) made the decision that, if there's going to be a fight, best to do it in the bad guy's house. But too many in this country have too little common sense for this peaceful condition to last. The next enemy massing outside of town or coming up the stairs may or may not wear a uniform, and I don't know what color his helmet will be. And while I'm pretty certain he won't be a Iroquois warrior or a Japanese soldier, I guarantee you he will be every bit as brutal as a one if your gun malfunctions.
A honorable man has three primary duties:
1. Lead his family righteously.
2. Provide for his family.
3. Protect his family.
You lead by example and sacrifice using your moral compass.
You provide by gaining skills and tools and working diligently.
You protect with what? .... A plinker?... WTF is that! :confused::mad::confused:
I have no problem with "plinkers." I own lots of guns just for the fun of it. But every man should have at least one rifle he can absolutely rely on under any circumstances, the cost be damned. It won't cost anywhere near a year's income. Once that duty is taken care of, buy all the disposable toys you can afford. They throw old toasters into landfills; a few broken DPMS rifles won't be any worse for the environment.
awesome reply. wish that could all fit on a shirt that the average american could read :(
Heavy Metal
06-25-09, 19:29
Riverine,
As long as the "J" spring is installed right it should be GTG. By the way where do they sell just a "J" spring? I wasn't aware that they came separate.
Also, does anyone know how to remove a "J" spring? I have tried several times and I was a NO GO at that station. I know you can use a punch through the hole, but I have heard that the spring may break off inside and possibly not be able to be removed.
I have cut the leg off of hammer springs and made replacement J-Springs before. Just dog it over with a punch in the little witness hole in the hammer.
Amazing... the Original Poster never showed up after his post........I guess you all answered his question... or he ignored the answer...;)
QuietShootr
06-25-09, 19:57
Hey everyone, my name is Mark, I'm a new member to this site. I was just wondering why everyone, or alot of people say that DPMS is a junk rifle? I have a pretty standard DPMS M4. It is my first and, (for now), only AR-15. It has never given me any trouble, it has gone bang every time. I have shot alongside a Bushmaster 20" upper with a DPMS lower, and I was doing just as well, if not better than that fella. I suppose I just can't understand how yall can say that these rifles, all of the same design, and with interchangable parts, differ to the extent that many people have said they do. And I know the pistol in the pic is an M&P9mm and not a Glock. The reason it says Glock is because I recently got a Glock and there were pictures of it in the batch I uploaded off my phone and thats just what i named the folder. haha
Anyways, I was just curious. Thanks guys!
Jesus Christ.
"huntin squirrels 'n sich" (name that quote).
I haven't gone through the thread yet, but I figured I'd answer this as soon as I heard the gauntlet being thrown. Outlaw Josey Wales - when the rebs are turning in their rifles just prior to them being "properly fed" and then "properly shot". "These men are nothing but common outlaws." One of my favorite movies.
Need to re-watch the movie for the first time in years. The movie refers to Confederate soldiers as "common outlaws?" Maybe in context of the situation in the movie? Just curious. Not trying to get into a debate. Don't read anything into my ?.
Heavy Metal
06-25-09, 20:39
Need to re-watch the movie for the first time in years. The movie refers to Confederate soldiers as "common outlaws?" Maybe in context of the situation in the movie? Just curious. Not trying to get into a debate. Don't read anything into my ?.
It was referring to Quantrell's raiders, a Confederate Gurella band with some questionable characters.
The Redlegs on the Union side were as likely to have thugs in their midst. The whole Missouri-Kansas border was one giant everyman for himself cluster****.
Need to re-watch the movie for the first time in years. The movie refers to Confederate soldiers as "common outlaws?" Maybe in context of the situation in the movie? Just curious. Not trying to get into a debate. Don't read anything into my ?.
The "blue belly scum" senior ranking officer (forgot the name of the character) that the Confederate soldiers turn themselves into labeled them as "common outlaws". Yes, in the context of the situation in the movie. This group of Confederate soldiers were one of the last holdouts to turn themselves in. There is probably a good chance that after the war was over, they were continuing to fight, probably because they didn't know the war was in fact over, plus they were probably still fighting for what they believed in, war or no war. Therefore they would be labeled as outlaws. I can quote a bazillion lines from that movie. I'm 36 and started watching it on TV with my dad when I was 10 or so. Of course I bought the VHS when I got married 12 years ago, and then the DVD when we got our first DVD player 7 years ago. "How's it with stains?" after Josey spits snoose juice on the carpet baggers white suit.
Heavy Metal
You're screen name is another fine movie. :)
I love Josey Wales. Must have watched that movie 200 times as a kid. Actually, I might just have make a point to watch it this weeked.
KYPD--Amazingly stuff man. I'll definitely send this off to a few folks to read.
Amazing... the Original Poster never showed up after his post........I guess you all answered his question... or he ignored the answer...;)
Of course not. He got REAL issues with DPMS AR's from REAL DEAL shooters and AR builders.
Typically we get a new shooter on here telling us their AR is fantastic, but when shown example after example of sub-par quality from people with thousands of hours of REAL experience with said weapon, they crawl back into their safety hole (TOS).
C4
Of course not. He got REAL issues with DPMS AR's from REAL DEAL shooters and AR builders.
Typically we get a new shooter on here telling us their AR is fantastic, but when shown example after example of sub-par quality from people with thousands of hours of REAL experience with said weapon, they crawl back into their safety hole (TOS).
C4
...as a fairly new black gun nut, I have zero problems getting corrected. My only current M4 is a kiss RRA. Have not had one problem so far but I do not shoot and abuse them the way you guys do.....yet.
Next on the list is an SBR build on a dedicated C3 billet lower but clueless after that.
...as a fairly new black gun nut, I have zero problems getting corrected. My only current M4 is a kiss RRA. Have not had one problem so far but I do not shoot and abuse them the way you guys do.....yet.
Next on the list is an SBR build on a dedicated C3 billet lower but clueless after that.
You're not the typical "new guy". ;)
...as a fairly new black gun nut, I have zero problems getting corrected. My only current M4 is a kiss RRA. Have not had one problem so far but I do not shoot and abuse them the way you guys do.....yet.
Next on the list is an SBR build on a dedicated C3 billet lower but clueless after that.
You also did not come on here and tell us that your RRA is as good as everything else (parts is parts).
I personally own RRA AR's and the first AR I ever bought was a RRA. I also own a BM AR. I do not own a SINGLE Colt or LMT AR.
So there is nothing wrong with owning a RRA, BM, DPMS, Oly, etc. Where you run into a problem is when you tell people (that know a lot about AR's) that your AR is just as good. ;)
C4
...as a fairly new black gun nut, I have zero problems getting corrected.
I'm right there with you man. As a new guy myself, I try to offer helpful comments about things I may have seen personally but have no problem being corrected by those with far more experience than myself. The rule I try to follow is: Regardless of how much I think I know about any given subject there is ALWAYS someone who knows more than I do. This isn't to say, have a lack a lack of confidence in what you do know, just don't get cocky or arrogant because the minute you do someone will hand you your ass.:D Always have to be willing to be corrected to learn. I try to follow this anytime I join a new board or immerse myself in a new subject matter. Fail at it from time to time but try. I'm amazed at how many "first post" experts show up show up on this board as well as others. At least here though, there is a wealth of knowledge with real experts (definitely not including myself in that group;)) who don't take that shit and put people in their place. While sometimes harsh for that first time poster, I find it extraordinarily refreshing.
Oh yeah and to make sure I'm at least including something about the original subject of the post.
DPMS
I've done enough reloading, benchrest, clays and custom turn bolts to know better than to jump into a new arena as a new guy and not ask questions.
I also spent some time here reading before I made my 1st post and could tell just from the sticky's, I was outclassed in the knowledge department. Heck, I'm still learning all the shortcut terms you guys use. Took me an hour to figure out FTF did not mean face to face. :eek::D
Sadly, I have just been informed that we are purchasing 100 DPMS Panther AP4 carbines. Bean counters win again. :(
Jay Cunningham
06-26-09, 13:29
Sadly, I have just been informed that we are purchasing 100 DPMS Panther AP4 carbines. Bean counters win again. :(
Amazing. But not surprising.
Thomas M-4
06-26-09, 13:30
Sadly, I have just been informed that we are purchasing 100 DPMS Panther AP4 carbines. Bean counters win again. :(
The flying big green dind dong strikes again:eek:
Its sad that you have to put up with that crap:confused:
Sadly, I have just been informed that we are purchasing 100 DPMS Panther AP4 carbines. Bean counters win again. :(
We had a similar problem in the city I worked for, folks that didn't know the difference between low bidder and "low, competent, compliant bidder". :( Fortunately our department money man did know the difference and always backed me. :)
Sadly, I have just been informed that we are purchasing 100 DPMS Panther AP4 carbines. Bean counters win again. :(
You might as well go ahead and get a few new chamber reamers from Ned since it sounds like you're going to wear out a couple of them. Might as well pick up another MOACKS, too.
Well, it could have been worse....did Olympic or Hesse/Vulcan/Blackthorne submit a bid? :D
You were reading my mind. I really wish I could get an assistant. That would help an assload.
You might as well go ahead and get a few new chamber reamers from Ned since it sounds like you're going to wear out a couple of them. Might as well pick up another MOACKS, too.
Well, it could have been worse....did Olympic or Hesse/Vulcan/Blackthorne submit a bid? :D
Heavy Metal
06-26-09, 17:26
Who the F**k is writing your bid specs and how can you reach him?
The simple solution is to set the bid specs such that DPMS and Bushy can't meet them.
You know, HPT/MP bolts, 5150 steel.
Hell, set CHF for barrels and only Daniel Defense and Noveske can meet em:D
Sadly, I have just been informed that we are purchasing 100 DPMS Panther AP4 carbines. Bean counters win again. :(
Oh boy, are you going to be busy.:eek:
Sadly, I have just been informed that we are purchasing 100 DPMS Panther AP4 carbines. Bean counters win again. :(
On the upside, think of all the additional material you'll be able to add to the collective knowledge base.
Failure2Stop
06-26-09, 17:42
Sadly, I have just been informed that we are purchasing 100 DPMS Panther AP4 carbines. Bean counters win again. :(
I'm sorry, but I am laughing at you right now.
OK. Now I understand. The AP4 is a .308. If they are on a tight budget, what other option did they have? Bushmaster is coming out with their version of that rifle, but not till next year.
For that money, I can't think of what else they could have bought. I am surprised they were even able to locate 100 of those. They are in very short supply.
Personally, they should have bought 50 guns and spent double on each one...:D
The funny thing is they didn't even do any bids as far as I know. Someone back in Neverland made the call and DPMS said that they could deliver in the time specified. Excuse me real quick while I throw up again.
Who the F**k is writing your bid specs and how can you reach him?
The simple solution is to set the bid specs such that DPMS and Bushy can't meet them.
You know, HPT/MP bolts, 5150 steel.
Hell, set CHF for barrels and only Daniel Defense and Noveske can meet em:D
Skintop and F2S,
EAT ME! :D
The AP4 carbine is actually a .223/ 5.56 weapon.
OK. Now I understand. The AP4 is a .308. If they are on a tight budget, what other option did they have? Bushmaster is coming out with their version of that rifle, but not till next year.
For that money, I can't think of what else they could have bought. I am surprised they were even able to locate 100 of those. They are in very short supply.
Personally, they should have bought 50 guns and spent double on each one...:D
Blankwaffe
06-26-09, 22:12
IG,
Just think of it as job security...I do feel sorry for the trigger pullers though.It would not be so bad if they would supply you with quality parts to upgrade the weapons.I think you will really like the DPMS MIM extractors.
I guess once the bolts start going tits up you could do some bayonet training with the fellas for when the rifles become spears.
My brother is a BlueRidge dealer,so I could probably get yall a good bid on some Cold Steel swords.;-)
Sadly, I have just been informed that we are purchasing 100 DPMS Panther AP4 carbines. Bean counters win again. :(
I would bet that you keep a maintenace log already, but if not you should really consider keeping a good record of the problems that you have with these carbines. I am willing to bet thay you have one of the largest DPMS test pools that anyone has available (other than DPMS). A year or so down the road, I think that your data will be quite substantial.
You may not care or have time, but are in a very good position to either confirm or discount a lot of beliefs. I would also be curious to know how much use one could get from a very cheap weapon which had been properly set up (staked).
It is interesting that Paul Howe at CSAT seems to sing DPMS praises....
I would bet that you keep a maintenace log already, but if not you should really consider keeping a good record of the problems that you have with these carbines. I am willing to bet thay you have one of the largest DPMS test pools that anyone has available (other than DPMS). A year or so down the road, I think that your data will be quite substantial.
You may not care or have time, but are in a very good position to either confirm or discount a lot of beliefs. I would also be curious to know how much use one could get from a very cheap weapon which had been properly set up (staked).
+1 Although I wish we didn't have to learn this way.
I actually created spread sheets for the maintenance done to the carbines, pistols, M240's and M249's as well as logging all of the Eotech problems. Unfortunately, those before me did not so there are a couple of years of the puzzle missing.
I would bet that you keep a maintenace log already, but if not you should really consider keeping a good record of the problems that you have with these carbines. I am willing to bet thay you have one of the largest DPMS test pools that anyone has available (other than DPMS). A year or so down the road, I think that your data will be quite substantial.
You may not care or have time, but are in a very good position to either confirm or discount a lot of beliefs. I would also be curious to know how much use one could get from a very cheap weapon which had been properly set up (staked).
CTBuilder1
06-27-09, 13:22
Of course not. He got REAL issues with DPMS AR's from REAL DEAL shooters and AR builders.
Typically we get a new shooter on here telling us their AR is fantastic, but when shown example after example of sub-par quality from people with thousands of hours of REAL experience with said weapon, they crawl back into their safety hole (TOS).
C4
Speaking of TOS, I spend a lot of time there. It's amazing some of the things people come up with to defend their chosen brand against Colt (or LMT, etc). There are a few people on there now in current threads who have gone full retard with some of thier replies.
One guy bet me his paycheck that he would outshoot my Colt with his DPMS in response to me pointing out technical differences between Teir One guns and DPMS.
The chart is heavily attacked too. The DPMS truthbuster thread is dragged out to "disprove" it quite often. Lots of fun.
Sadly, I have just been informed that we are purchasing 100 DPMS Panther AP4 carbines. Bean counters win again. :(
That just sux..............
The chart is heavily attacked too. The DPMS truthbuster thread is dragged out to "disprove" it quite often. Lots of fun.
I like the pic of the stake jobs on the bolt carriers :eek:
CTBuilder1
06-27-09, 14:31
I like the pic of the stake jobs on the bolt carriers :eek:
Yeah, it looks like they were staked with someones fingernail. I posted pics of a properly staked key (Colt) for comparison but there is no resoning with the haters. My favorite is the people who like to chime in and say that they have never had/seen/heard of any problmes with an unstaked carrier key.
exkc135driver
06-27-09, 16:02
Sadly, I have just been informed that we are purchasing 100 DPMS Panther AP4 carbines. Bean counters win again. :(
I don't know what the cost difference per gun between DPMS and Colt would be for a 100-gun purchase, but I would guess not more than $500-$600. So that's a $50-60k difference. That seems like a fair amount of money, until you compare it to the annual pay of one contractor. That $50-$60k is, what, maybe 30-35% of the annual pay for one contractor (overhead and benefits not included)? I don't have any idea how many active-shooter contractors are involved, but if the company is ordering 100 guns to use in addition to the ones they already have, there are more than a few of those. I have no idea what the actual numbers are, but if you assume 150 active shooters @ $150k and 50 support @ $100k, and factor in benefit costs, you're well over $30 million.
Assume adding $60,000 to a $30 million annual budget ... you have increased your budget by 0.20%. That is two-tenths of one percent.
I don't know nuthin', but it seems cheap to me.
I made a few calls and there were other options available that would would have been just a few hundred dollars more per weapon. In the bigger scheme of things the money we are talking about are nickles and dimes. Oh well........
I don't know what the cost difference per gun between DPMS and Colt would be for a 100-gun purchase, but I would guess not more than $500-$600. So that's a $50-60k difference. That seems like a fair amount of money, until you compare it to the annual pay of one contractor. That $50-$60k is, what, maybe 30-35% of the annual pay for one contractor (overhead and benefits not included)? I don't have any idea how many active-shooter contractors are involved, but if the company is ordering 100 guns to use in addition to the ones they already have, there are more than a few of those. I have no idea what the actual numbers are, but if you assume 150 active shooters @ $150k and 50 support @ $100k, and factor in benefit costs, you're well over $30 million.
Assume adding $60,000 to a $30 million annual budget ... you have increased your budget by 0.20%. That is two-tenths of one percent.
I don't know nuthin', but it seems cheap to me.
Heavy Metal
06-27-09, 21:23
Ask them if next time they would be willing to spec it out and put it out to bid.......be sure you 'volunteer' to help write the specs.
Based upon what I know they were apparently only interested in cost and delivery time.
Ask them if next time they would be willing to spec it out and put it out to bid.......be sure you 'volunteer' to help write the specs.
Human lives cost little to bean counters. It makes me sick.
IG,
I do not own a DPMS rifle, Upper or Lower... but I did pick up a BCG from my local DPMS only dealer that is married to DPMS in a way that makes me want to puke :]
Any ways, I grabbed one of the DPMS complete (standard) BCGs from him about 2 months back, I was glad to see that unlike BushMaster and Stag, DPMS does not (or has stopped?) using a chissel point and hammer to "stake" the gas key bolts.
My (unprofessional) opinion is that this stake job is better than the worthless attempt by Stag/BushMaster (I do own a Stag and BushMaster) but in NO WAY is there enough material deformation to do the intended job. No way.
Looking at the staking on the gas key bolts, better than a Bushmaster or Stag, but no where near enough deformation to properly engauge the bolt head and prevent loosening during battle. Better than some, but still no where near acceptable for our soldiers.
The following is the DPMS Panther Arms complete BCG purchased sometime around March 2009:
http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp174/larry0071/Bushmaster%20BCG/100_0599.jpg
http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp174/larry0071/Bushmaster%20BCG/100_0597.jpg
http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp174/larry0071/Bushmaster%20BCG/100_0598.jpg
http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp174/larry0071/Bushmaster%20BCG/100_0599.jpg
That staking is certainly better than what they used to do. It could be better, but they're headed in the right direction.
Unfortunately, this looks to me like the kind of thing you get when you only read the Chart, and not the Explanation of Features. They have missed what the staking is for, to prevent the screws from loosening, and while they have displaced a ton of material it is still only just barely touching the screw heads (judging solely by those pics).
Here's what my MOACKS did, and while it's a shitty picture in too much sun and taken in a hurry, you can see how much more material is displaced into the screw heads. In fact, the screw heads themselves get a little dented when done right.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/0805%20YFA/gear-002.jpg
SWATcop556
06-28-09, 19:21
It is interesting that Paul Howe at CSAT seems to sing DPMS praises....
The times I've trained and talked to him he never said anything about liking DPMS. I know he's got a rifle through LWRCi built to his specs. Got to run one for a day in a class and it was pretty nice. Not anything that blew my skirt up but I wouldn't feel "under-gunned" carrying one.
SWATcop556
06-28-09, 19:25
Unfortunately, this looks to me like the kind of thing you get when you only read the Chart, and not the Explanation of Features.
Exactly. Just because you move more metal than you use to doesn't mean you have a properly staked carrier. You have to move the metal far enough to engage the screws, thus the entire reason for staking in the first place.
I will say it is nice to see that they are at least trying. Better than BM or Oly.
Heavy Metal
06-28-09, 19:42
Hey Rob, I got an idea for a new column for your chart.
Who is using 8620 and who is using Carpenter 158 in the bolts.
The times I've trained and talked to him he never said anything about liking DPMS. I know he's got a rifle through LWRCi built to his specs. Got to run one for a day in a class and it was pretty nice. Not anything that blew my skirt up but I wouldn't feel "under-gunned" carrying one.
I saw an excerpt from one of his newsletters that he was ceasing the LWRCi relationship and taking up with DPMS instead.
SWATcop556
06-28-09, 20:21
I saw an excerpt from one of his newsletters that he was ceasing the LWRCi relationship and taking up with DPMS instead.
Damn, good to know. I haven't been to train at CSAT since SWAT school but have read his newsletters and run into Paul a few times at conventions. Guess I missed that one.
Guys my neighbor is a very smart fella & I can promise you this wasn't a spur of the moment, knee jerk move by Paul,
he does not work that way. A quote from another fella that I also respect & know well, his take on this & yes Rob,
you've seen this already, over on the alum.
06/10/2009 4:00 PM Quote Reply Alert
Paul is a very sharp guy who earned his spurs.
His reasons are his, but i'm pretty sure he had a clear understanding of the options and chose what best suited his needs.
S/F
Pat sends
Never Forget those who Died; Never Forget Those Who Killed Them
decodeddiesel
06-28-09, 20:46
Huh? :confused:
Blankwaffe
06-28-09, 22:16
Based upon what I know they were apparently only interested in cost and delivery time.
IG,
Just curious....but what failure rate are you seeing in the current issue weapons in say a 30 day period after you have gone through the weapons?
Whats the most common parts failure that you are seeing?
Blankwaffe
06-28-09, 22:33
Damn, good to know. I haven't been to train at CSAT since SWAT school but have read his newsletters and run into Paul a few times at conventions. Guess I missed that one.
SWATcop1911,
Its been many years since I was an LEO SWAT and was curious.
Has the M4 series became the primary issue weapon for the ERT's for most departments now?
The local SO that I worked for is still issuing the MP5 as the primary for team members.
I know things have change as far as rifles issued to standard patrol officers,but when I was active the M16/M4 was considered a liabilty in urban environments for team events.
For some people, a rifle that fails to perform properly due to poor quality control is, as you said, not a big deal. These are kids and plinkers.
You don't have to be current military or a security contractor in Rahmdi to realize that quality matters in important ways when it comes to guns. It matters a hell of a lot more than it does for cars, boats, or TV's. Guns are important things. Guns can take lives. Guns can save lives.
Any adult male that takes American history seriously, and understands the reasons behind the 2nd Amendment realizes that, at some time during the useful lifetime of their gun, it may well need to be used for are more than just plinking or "huntin squirrels 'n sich" (name that quote). Maybe by them. Maybe by their son. Maybe by their grandson. Will your AR15 still be operating dependably when you, or your son, or your grandson needs to defend the family? At that critical moment, if it fails because of poor quality and third-rate Chinese parts, can you say "nothing in your life will change?"
DPMS is "use it till it breaks then toss it" junk, the Harbor Freight Tools of firearms. I'm ashamed to admit I own one. Gotta get rid of that POS.
Well put sir!!
SWATcop556
06-29-09, 00:29
SWATcop1911,
Its been many years since I was an LEO SWAT and was curious.
Has the M4 series became the primary issue weapon for the ERT's for most departments now?
The local SO that I worked for is still issuing the MP5 as the primary for team members.
I know things have change as far as rifles issued to standard patrol officers,but when I was active the M16/M4 was considered a liabilty in urban environments for team events.
Our team has moved from MP5's to the 14.5 M4. Our department allows personal rifles to be carried so I use a 10.5 LMT. I still carry a 16" BCM Middie for general patrol use and just use the SBR for entries.
None of the agencies I've worked with in our area are using the MP5 anymore and haven't for some time. I know there are some that still use them but they are very mission specific.
Current ballistics shows that the 5.56 is not nearly the "over-penetration" liability it was once though to be. Using modern rounds developed for those types of situations, it has been shown to be safer to use the rifles inside a residential structure than a pistol caliber SMG.
I do miss shooting the MP5's though. They were a lot of fun.
Blankwaffe
06-29-09, 01:23
Our team has moved from MP5's to the 14.5 M4. Our department allows personal rifles to be carried so I use a 10.5 LMT. I still carry a 16" BCM Middie for general patrol use and just use the SBR for entries.
None of the agencies I've worked with in our area are using the MP5 anymore and haven't for some time. I know there are some that still use them but they are very mission specific.
Current ballistics shows that the 5.56 is not nearly the "over-penetration" liability it was once though to be. Using modern rounds developed for those types of situations, it has been shown to be safer to use the rifles inside a residential structure than a pistol caliber SMG.
I do miss shooting the MP5's though. They were a lot of fun.
Thats pretty much what I thought.
I agree,the MP5 is a very nice weapon,although very expensive...was always impressed with its performance.I always thought the caliber argument was a bit silly,in our departments case especially,mainly due to the rural community and heavily wood areas we had to operate in.
Well a bit of good news came in today. They have put a stop to the order temporarily. We'll see how it develops further.
SWATcop556
06-29-09, 17:00
Well a bit of good news came in today. They have put a stop to the order temporarily. We'll see how it develops further.
Why the stop on the order? Is it concerns over the quality of the rifles or did something fall through with the promise of the rifles by a certain time at a certain price?
No idea to be honest. I was just told earlier in the day. Works for me.
Why the stop on the order? Is it concerns over the quality of the rifles or did something fall through with the promise of the rifles by a certain time at a certain price?
SWATcop556
06-29-09, 17:21
No idea to be honest. I was just told earlier in the day. Works for me.
As long as those rifles never show up at your doorstep I wouldn't complain either. Let us know when you find something out. I'm curious.
Maybe they heard they could get OA rifles for less $$$!!!!
SWATcop556
06-29-09, 17:34
Maybe they heard they could get OA rifles for less $$$!!!!
Be gone from us Satan!! :D...........but you may be on to something, knowing bean counters!
Be gone from us Satan!! :D...........but you may be on to something, knowing bean counters!
LOL! I thought that would ruffle some of ya'alls feathers a bit! I bet IG almost puked when he read that!
Heavy Metal
06-29-09, 19:19
Maybe they heard they could get OA rifles for less $$$!!!!
Dude, not even in jest......now Blackthorne, that would be funny.!:D
I wish it was just bean counters...
I have a good friend on one of the local SORT teams. They are issued DPMS rifles and he swears by them. His rifle has "never failed him". I was quite happy when he told me he was switching to a shotgun.
I trust him with many things. But his choice in primary weapons isn't one of them!
Blankwaffe
06-30-09, 00:51
Might have something to do with the fact that DPMS is saying that they are 9-12 months out on build availability with many thousands of backordered rifles to be shipped....parts related and backlogs just as everyone else Im sure.
Or it might have something to do with IG's current Bushy contract being that DPMS is owned by the same corporate head.Might be some internal conflict of interest there.
RogerinTPA
06-30-09, 07:53
Why the stop on the order? Is it concerns over the quality of the rifles or did something fall through with the promise of the rifles by a certain time at a certain price?
The bean counters found something even cheaper, are are salivating at the savings.:p
Guys my neighbor is a very smart fella & I can promise you this wasn't a spur of the moment, knee jerk move by Paul,
he does not work that way. A quote from another fella that I also respect & know well, his take on this & yes Rob,
you've seen this already, over on the alum.
06/10/2009 4:00 PM Quote Reply Alert
Paul is a very sharp guy who earned his spurs.
His reasons are his, but i'm pretty sure he had a clear understanding of the options and chose what best suited his needs.
S/F
Pat sends
Never Forget those who Died; Never Forget Those Who Killed Them
I would have to concur. One thing I don't believe Mr. Howe is, is a puppet. If your stuff works, he'll run it. If not, he'll chunk it. He's also been known to run a RRA. Maybe he's just not a brand Nazi. He wanted a barrel with a 1-9 twist (gasp), LWRCi refused and built one with a 1-7 twist. So he chunked them.
IMHO, there ain't a chance in Hades that he would run and push DPMS if he thought they were junk. I don't think he has any illusion that DPMS is on par with Colt or Noveske, but it's a tool. And like what's posted above, it suited his needs. There's not a doubt in my mind that if he finds DPMS not up to his standards, he'd drop them in about 2.5 Airborne Seconds. I know I ain't questioning his standards.
My .02 that's worth exactly what you paid for it. :)
Damn KRY226, we know the same fella. You summed up my thoughts exactly on his move to DPMS,
think you & Pat have certainly nailed it. Your puppett comment re. Paul reminds me of a Q&A that I had w/ LAV last January.
Long story short, Larry is observing me in a HG drill & ask's me why I shoot a G30. Answered that I was somewhat influenced by an old
teammate of his. He say's who, I act like I didn't hear him & he repeats the question twice, as my partner next to me is increasingly anxious for
me to reply to him. Finally, I answer Paul. His reply, " I know Paul, worked w/ him, damn he's hard headed".
Not entirely relevant other than to illustrate that my neighbor is not swayed/influenced by other's experiences nor advice.
Just my .02, worth exactly that much.
Damn KRY226, we know the same fella. You summed up my thoughts exactly on his move to DPMS,
think you & Pat have certainly nailed it. Your puppett comment re. Paul reminds me of a Q&A that I had w/ LAV last January.
Long story short, Larry is observing me in a HG drill & ask's me why I shoot a G30. Answered that I was somewhat influenced by an old
teammate of his. He say's who, I act like I didn't hear him & he repeats the question twice, as my partner next to me is increasingly anxious for
me to reply to him. Finally, I answer Paul. His reply, " I know Paul, worked w/ him, damn he's hard headed".
Not entirely relevant other than to illustrate that my neighbor is not swayed/influenced by other's experiences nor advice.
Just my .02, worth exactly that much.
I guess so. I was fortunate to meet him a few times, share a class or two at the ROTC BN and share a drink in his home with some other boys once. That dude has (or had) the biggest and oldest German Shepherd I'd ever seen in my life.
I'm on my way back to the "Doche" in early August. I'll ping you when I get there and even let you lend me some ammo and we'll go blast a few. :D
The "Chart" is a great place to start.
dookie1481
02-01-10, 03:12
Sorry to dredge this up, but I was wondering what happened to IG's order? Did you guys end up with DPMS rifles or not?
I'm tired of people at TOS telling everyone that Brand X is just as good as Colt, BCM, DD, etc. and you are just paying for a name. It doesn't bother me personally but new people come there for advice and the signal-to-noise ratio is pretty low over there.
Jay
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