View Full Version : purchasing a short barreled upper
Please refer me to a thread if this has been covered. I am currently waiting for a transfer for a registered Colt A2. I am wanting to purchase a 10.5 inch upper. Can I buy it and keep it uninstalled while I wait for the transfer? I do have several AR15 at home. Am I beraking any laws? Please be easy on my guys. Options would be: keeping either ARs or sbu in my neighbors safe i.e. stored seperate, or ship the upper to my class 3 (200 miles away) or keeping all at home and NEVER putting it on a reciever till my transfer is approved.
You can keep the short upper at home but then you have to consider what a possible as***** ATF agent considers intent. You may have no "intent" at all to install it on a non-registered receiver, but the ATF agent may think otherwise. All that matters is what the ATF agent thinks is your intent, not what your intent is.
If you want to be sure you're in the clear, keep it at your friends, as long as he doesn't own an AR.
SWATcop556
06-25-09, 02:22
You can keep the short upper at home but then you have to consider what a possible as***** ATF agent considers intent. You may have no "intent" at all to install it on a non-registered receiver, but the ATF agent may think otherwise. All that matters is what the ATF agent thinks is your intent, not what your intent is.
If you want to be sure you're in the clear, keep it at your friends, as long as he doesn't own an AR.
You learn well Grasshopper! :cool:
Guess I better throw my BCM upper over the fence. :eek:
SWATcop1911- Many hours holding hot box between arms brings wisdom.
Gunz- Smart a**!:p Your job gets you special privileges. How many full-autos laying around today? Do you have intent? H*** Yeah! But that comes with your job.
CAR-AR-M16
06-25-09, 11:19
Guess I better throw my BCM upper over the fence. :eek:
Please let me know the location of this fence and what time you plan on throwing it. ;)
The intent goofballs will be all over this!
AZCOP on arfcom says you'd best not own any ink pens. That is intent for FORGERY!
Guess I better throw my BCM upper over the fence. :eek:
It actually has to be a block wall that you can't climb over. Otherwise the intent rules still apply!
And you have to keep your ladder at a neighbors house. Because intent dictates that you plan to use the ladder to retrieve the upper and build an illegal weapon. It's pretty obvious when you think about it.
In fact. If you own a credit card, that can be intent to buy a short barrel, which is intent for an illegal build.
In fact.... suicide is the only way to avoid intent prosecutions and club fed/bubba. Just don't kill yourself with an illegal short barrel. Because ATF has offices in hell too!
SWATcop556
06-25-09, 12:05
It actually has to be a block wall that you can't climb over. Otherwise the intent rules still apply!
And you have to keep your ladder at a neighbors house. Because intent dictates that you plan to use the ladder to retrieve the upper and build an illegal weapon. It's pretty obvious when you think about it.
In fact. If you own a credit card, that can be intent to buy a short barrel, which is intent for an illegal build.
In fact.... suicide is the only way to avoid intent prosecutions and club fed/bubba. Just don't kill yourself with an illegal short barrel. Because ATF has offices in hell too!
By far the best answer to the constructive intent bullshit I have ever heard!! Markm FTW!
You seem to have articulated that better than I could. :D
It actually has to be a block wall that you can't climb over. Otherwise the intent rules still apply!
And you have to keep your ladder at a neighbors house. Because intent dictates that you plan to use the ladder to retrieve the upper and build an illegal weapon. It's pretty obvious when you think about it.
In fact. If you own a credit card, that can be intent to buy a short barrel, which is intent for an illegal build.
In fact.... suicide is the only way to avoid intent prosecutions and club fed/bubba. Just don't kill yourself with an illegal short barrel. Because ATF has offices in hell too!
I can feel the intent OOZING from you outlaws! :mad:
You might want to go read here:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30759
Nevermind the whims of individual ATF agents. There is federal appellate court authority that says if you 1) have a short upper, 2) have non-NFA gun that it can be readily attached to and 3) you have no lawful way of using it (such as an NFA host gun) and it's all in the same place, you are ****ed.
I'm sure markm will be along shortly to call me an "internet patrolman" or some other name. Just remember, this isn't MY opinion. It's right there in the case law.
Oh boy, I hear the lights and sirens already.
Gunz- You're just waiting for the trainwreck. Quit rubberneckin'.
You might want to go read here:
I'm sure markm will be along shortly to call me an "internet patrolman"
No, Sir.
You just made SERGEANT!
Just remember, this isn't MY opinion. It's right there in the case law.
That thread is six pages long. I don't remember any legit case law ever being posted. But the fact that you've looked for case law is per se INTENT! You're so busted.
That thread is six pages long. I don't remember any legit case law ever being posted. But the fact that you've looked for case law is per se INTENT! You're so busted.
You must have a poor memory, but I'll forgive you. Here is the case:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=11th&navby=case&no=978425opn
You must have a poor memory, but I'll forgive you.
Honestly, I never read this the last time. So I couldn't remember it. I scanned it now and it's weak. The one thing I've noticed in ATF cases is that if they go after someone they PILE THE CHARGES ON! They carpet bomb with every little thing they can come up with.
I read the allegations of a recent high profile ATF case, and that was one of the first things that struck me.
This guy has MG's and stolen guns and all kinds of real charges going. Not a case of a guy who simply has a spare sbr upper.
Honestly, I never read this the last time. So I couldn't remember it. I scanned it now and it's weak. The one thing I've noticed in ATF cases is that if they go after someone they PILE THE CHARGES ON! They carpet bomb with every little thing they can come up with.
I read the allegations of a recent high profile ATF case, and that was one of the first things that struck me.
That isn't unique to the ATF or gun cases. Law enforcement in general has a habit of "stacking" charges because they know that things are going to get tossed and reduced in plea agreements. Not all of them do it, but a lot of them do.
I also agree that it's usually truly "bad" guys who you see in these cases. That's true of other areas as well, such as state laws involving knives. It's usually guys with prior felony convictions who end up appealing and making case law that turns an assisted open folder into an unlawful uber-baby-killing dagger.
We're still stuck with the plain ruling of these cases, though. Keeping a short upper around when you don't have something legal to stick it on, and you do have something illegal to stick it on, is a bad idea.
Keeping a short upper around when you don't have something legal to stick it on, and you do have something illegal to stick it on, is a bad idea.
Maybe...
I Definitely agree if you're engaged in other criminalistcal endeavors.
There have been several good points made. What it boils down for me, and only for me, is that I cannot take the risk of some ATF agent having a bad day, a stupid jury, and a dumb judge. Meaning-the stars lined up to send my a** to jail. I have a wife to think about. I can't take the slim chance that everything will turn out bad. How do you even begin to piece your life back together after something like that? We are all aware of stupid convictions that no sane person would ever think could have occured.
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