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View Full Version : AAR – Long Range International – DMR - #01/09 (Pics)



Gutshot John
06-25-09, 18:30
Range, Students and Instructors:

LRI (http://longrangeinternational.com/home.html) brings whole new meaning to the word “range.” Right outside of Lance Creek Wyoming about four hours North of Denver Colorado. The class was held on a fraction of 50K acre horse/cattle ranch with wide fields of view with depressions, outcroppings and ridges that act as backstops. Ranges could easily exceed 2000 yards for just about any rifle you could want. Beyond this they have the capability of doing mounted/dismounted courses of fire that permitted an application of marksmanship techniques in tactical scenarios such as a rooftop in Iraq to an IED attack on a convoy in Afghanistan. There are bunk/squad bay facilities for students and lodging/meals are provided at a modest price with an excellent cook who provided hot breakfasts and dinners with MREs for lunch. All you need to bring is gear, guns and ammo.
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The students and instructors represented a broad swath of knowledge and expertise. In the case of one student had 40+ years of firearms experience that was a profoundly eye-opening encounter. While the military background was prominent, the top-shooter in the class was civilian. Almost all were competition shooters who had significant competition experience and other things to contribute. Bill, Jason and Rob are extremely knowledgeable/effective instructors and with their backgrounds, the training was based on real-world experience. Rob is also a skilled/accredited/equipped gunsmith and we spent several hours trouble-shooting a problem I was having with my rifle. He’s extremely smart and knowledgeable in his craft and is almost more of a weapons historian, which I certainly appreciated.
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Curriculum and Overview of Training:
The two-day class was about 24 training hours. The long TD1 began with the didactic portion of the concept of the DMR. The DMR is NOT a sniper and is given a role of providing rapid, accurate gunfire support to 800 meters primarily as a modified service rifle. The fundamentals of Marksmanship (position, aiming, breathing and trigger control) and Ballistics (internal, external and terminal) were well defined. Significant time was spent on the importance of fundamentals such as natural point-of-aim and mastering your chosen optic as higher power optics and longer distance ranges make parallax a significant issue. By late-morning we were on the range sighting-in zeros and applying the vagaries of how altitude, temperature and humidity affect bullet performance giving us a solid foundation in doping our weapons and beginning the process of collecting data. In some courses, zeroing is often a chore to get through; in the DMR class it became a significant learning opportunity. We then spent time on positions before moving into some basic CQB drills to establish how to manipulate and maximize performance up close.

After lunch we jumped into barricades before breaking into shooter/spotter pairs and moving on to known distance shooting out to 600 yards to firmly establish our weapon’s “dope” on 18”w x 24”h steel targets about the size of a torso without legs. LRI operated on “big boy rules” meaning if your gun went down on the range you were expected to fix the problem yourself. I started having problems and so it turned out I got a lot of valuable malfunction experience on the FAL due to a bizarro ammunition problem with West German AB-22. All in all the emphasis was on speed and accuracy by using the semi-auto capability to get on target within 3 shots at unknown distances using rapid range estimation and a BDC reticle. It was also a chance to learn and hone spotting skills. The late afternoon sun made it extremely difficult to acquire targets no matter what type/color of reticle you were using. We broke for chow before coming back to low-light and night shooting that culminated in a chemlight target competition. We got in about 11pm making for a long 15 hour training day. Everyone was sore and tired as TD1 was a bit of an ass-kicker.

The real fun (and I do mean fun) began on TD2 with an unknown distance shoot that applied everything we had learned on TD1 with several timed competitive shoots between the paired teams. The ammunition problems persisted until I switched to my partner’s Federal Match .308, and with that the FAL/ACOG combo delivered a very impressive performance in terms of speed and accuracy easily (with single-shots) putting effective fire on 600-yard steel. The ACOG paid huge dividends in terms of rapidly estimating ranges. After that the fun really began as we began to incorporate tactical situations including patrolling, shooting and moving in pairs, bounding and breaking contact within 200 yards.
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After lunch Urban techniques were covered using a simulated Baghdad/Iraqi rooftop and how to use solid structures for shooting support and creating a variety of shooting positions. A foot patrol assault course incorporated this rooftop and different cover/concealment. Vehicle technique was followed by vehicle assault course along a 2-3 mile trail with targets set at random intervals. A pistol proved to be an excellent tool to mark a target for a wide variety of distances. Scenarios continued with a simulated convoy under IED attack using a Tannerite target. Here again a FAL/ACOG and a spotter proved to be a very effective in the DMR role even with problems caused by late-afternoon sun. TD2 may have been the most pure fun I’d ever had in a training day. By early evening we were all pretty crushed and went back to the bunkhouse for some drinks and a comprehensive debrief of the IED shoot and the class in general.
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Equipment and Ammunition:

The class was centered around the AR/M4 system but I was using a DSA FAL with a G1 barrel, 3x30 ACOG on TA-51 mount and DSA rail and FH. I had never used the FH and had an impact on groups from 1-2 (using South African 7.62) to 2-3 (using German AB-22) moa, but given the nighttime requirements it was recommended that I zero it with the FH on and leave it there. This was sound advice as constantly putting it on or taking it off would have rendered it useless at night. The FH was vital. The other optics ranged from a standard EOTech, a Pride Fowler and a 4x ACOG. All were perfectly capable of making shots out to 600 yards with the 16” carbine system though at the 500-600 yard range the FAL was making hits within 2-3 shots where the AR was making them in 4-5. Match ammo lends a huge advantage at farther distances, but the top shooter who started with Black Hills Match 75 and ended with Wolf 62 was still quite capable of making hits out to 600 yards with an AR with groups going from 1 moa to 3 moa, still within DMR tolerances.

My ammunition issues began with breaking a cardinal rule: going to a class with ammo I hadn’t tested in my gun. My FAL has had about 1000-1500 rounds of miscellaneous mil-surp of various quality with no problems whatsoever, so I didn’t really fear that West German NATO ammunition would be a problem. It functioned initially ok but problems increased after about 150 rounds. After ruling-out every other issue including the gas system (tried every setting) with Rob the gunsmith, he pretty much came to the conclusion that the ammo was underpowered or underperforming in other ways causing the bolt to short-stroke. The only obvious difference is the nickel-plated projectile that may or may not have contributed to the problem. Total round count was approximately 400 rounds over two days.

The importance of mastering your chosen optic and recording data in a book can’t be overstated. The EOTech performed quite well even if 600 yard shots were problematic without a spotter. A quality-magnified optic makes all the difference and I learned more about maximizing the capability of the ACOG in ways I never realized. It is a wonderful low-powered optic that can easily fill the gap between 100-800 yards with the right dope. The class seemed to teach more about one’s optics than one’s rifle.

Overview:

One might expect that an inaugural class is going to have some kinks but perhaps due to the instructor/student ratio this was minimized, as there was always a spare hand to address the minor hiccups. Instructor knowledge and experience made all the difference for keeping the curriculum focused and paced. Some ranges have fancy facilities but are limited by what their hard assets can do, LRI’s space and instructor creativity gave them significant capability few ranges or million-dollar training facilities could hope to match or exceed. LRI offered a unique and valuable training opportunity to do things that only a few civilian ranges offer. The instructors were very interested in passing on their knowledge of their craft and cared very much about their students’ performance. They elicited a lot of feedback about what could be improved or changed. One thing is that I would have preferred it be a 3-day class but as LRI moves forward and more people take this already excellent class it will only get better as it is refined. I will be returning to LRI for more.
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d90king
06-25-09, 20:16
That looks like it was a great shoot and class, in an outstanding setting! Thanks for posting an AAR and pics!

Littlelebowski
06-25-09, 21:02
I found it really interesting that the FAL settled down and outshot the ARs out to 600.

Wyoming makes you appreciate optics.

FYI, that's my father's ranch and my brother's course.

Gutshot John
06-25-09, 21:51
Wyoming makes you appreciate optics.

No doubt, one of the more important things I learned is that at longer DMR ranges, optic and to a lesser extent ammunition were bigger factors than the rifle itself since almost all DMR rifles are modified service weapons rather than precision built sniper rifles. For the DMR I can't say enough about the ACOG and the speed it gives in ranging and hitting targets. The BDC worked perfectly. It's simple, elegant and effective.

Bear in mind that I almost never shoot beyond 200 yards even with the FAL so a one-shot hit, in the midst of recovering from a malfunction, on an unknown that I ranged at 600 with the FAL was a "oh shit...I can't believe I just did that" moment, but it was applying fundamentals and mastering/maximizing your optic's capabilities. This is where the 3x30 ACOG proved to be an incredibly versatile and precision instrument. We were given a timed evolution on the unknown distance shoot. We had a certain time to range and create a makeshift range card (mostly just marking target distances in yards as there was no time to create a detailed drawing). After that we had to engage all 8 targets successfully within a 5 minute time period. Not exactly rocket science and the AR averaged about 2.5 minutes. My run was just under 4, but I had about 5 malfunctions that required removing mag and clearing empty brass from the chamber. During this drill I also switched to the manufactured ammunition and no I didn't re-zero, it was still pretty much dead-on. The malfunctions made for a total cluster but was great experience shooting under pressure.

Accuracy wise I don't know that I can outshoot the FAL although I'm close. Inside of 400 yards the AR still rules the roost, but out to 600 the rounds are coming in at a pretty sharp angle. In contrast the .308 (Match) was still very flat. I borrowed Rob's AR with Burris scope during the Maneuver and VAC to conserve the match .308 for distance shooting during the IED scenario. It was during the IED shoot that the FAL really proved its worth with the help of a spotter taking out 4 of 5 targets. Jason spotted me onto a center-mass hydraulic shot at 400 yards on a sihouette (concealed by shadow and brush) I couldn't even see. I was pretty stoked.

I still have so much to learn, but it was a great confidence booster at making significant shots out to longer distances if I had to.

I'm trying to round up my brother-in-law and a corpsman buddy (who's already agreed to go) for an LRI Precision Rifle class.

PS. It's worth mentioning that the dog's name was Ruben. The only dog I've ever seen that charges TOWARDS gunfire. During a maneuver drill he broke his line and we had to yell cease-fire as he wanted a piece of the fight. Loco but cool as I'm a dog lover. Finishing an MRE around him can take some doing.

Littlelebowski
06-26-09, 07:55
The Precision class really works on the fundamentals. LRI got a guy new to long range with a Walmart 30.06 and a 3-9x scope to ringing steel at 1000 yards with ease.

Reuben is an undisciplined pig. Looking forward to my German Shepherd smacking him around :D

SIMPLYDYNAMIC
06-26-09, 09:05
God I miss that Dog!

Littlelebowski
06-26-09, 09:09
God I miss that Dog!

You don't miss the Wolf (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANPsHKpti48)?!

Gutshot John
06-26-09, 17:19
Meeting and learning from the Wolf was one of the highlights. The opportunity to "shut up" and listen to a "student" with several decades of acquired firearms wisdom was a privilege and educational.

Oh and he makes Clint Eastwood look like a fairy. :eek:

chadbag
06-26-09, 18:32
Adding this to my list of classes (and I can drive there in less than a day) to attend.

Littlelebowski
06-27-09, 11:51
Adding this to my list of classes (and I can drive there in less than a day) to attend.

DMR or Precision Rifle I? We'd be glad to have you out there.

Littlelebowski
06-27-09, 11:53
Meeting and learning from the Wolf was one of the highlights. The opportunity to "shut up" and listen to a "student" with several decades of acquired firearms wisdom was a privilege and educational.

Oh and he makes Clint Eastwood look like a fairy. :eek:

The Wolf is unbelievably tough. Almost 70 and he shoots and physically exerts himself all day. He can rebuild a car, hit a target a mile away, and wire a house. he's one of those old men you just don't mess with. Tougher version of Clint's character in Gran Torino.

Gutshot John
06-27-09, 12:05
LL are you going out for PR1 in September?

Littlelebowski
06-27-09, 12:14
LL are you going out for PR1 in September?

I'd like to but work is a problem right now. I'll let you know if things work out.

Gutshot John
06-27-09, 13:34
Check, I'm trying to fit it into my budget as well (while keeping my marriage intact) but I'm going to figure out a way.

I've got a Viking class to do in November which all told is about seven classes in a year. Funny that it doesn't seem excessive to me, my wife thinks I'm crazy though she loved the write-up.

d90king
06-27-09, 14:18
Do you have to be military/LEO to take a class with LRI?

Gutshot John
06-27-09, 14:36
Do you have to be military/LEO to take a class with LRI?

Nope.

d90king
06-27-09, 14:43
Nope.

Thanks! Your AAR really has me thinking about a class with them. It looks like a great class with some quality shooters and instruction. My only problem is that I don't have a 1000 yd rifle. I have a MRP in 6.8 and a LaRue OSR on order, but I think that will still be 6 months until it is built.


If I ordered a 18" barrel for the 6.8 what kinda distance do you think it would cover?

chadbag
06-27-09, 15:14
DMR or Precision Rifle I? We'd be glad to have you out there.

Probably both eventually. Probably DMR first. Have to figure it out how to swing it.

DMR
06-27-09, 15:59
Great write up. I need to get out there to update my DM article. Sept? When is the DM class so I can look at my scheadual. Other then a NYS Law Expo, I might have a slot open.

Gutshot John
06-27-09, 16:20
Thanks! Your AAR really has me thinking about a class with them. It looks like a great class with some quality shooters and instruction. My only problem is that I don't have a 1000 yd rifle. I have a MRP in 6.8 and a LaRue OSR on order, but I think that will still be 6 months until it is built.

Your MRP would be perfectly adequate for the DMR class. You don't need a thousand-yard rifle for that. The optic is a bigger issue than the rifle but one guy (my spotter) used an AR/EOTech and was making good hits at 600 with some spotting.

If you're looking for the Precision Rifle class I believe they have loaner rifles for you to use. I actually think I'm going to hold of on getting a bolt gun until after I take PR1 just so I can learn what I want and don't want in a precision rifle.


If I ordered a 18" barrel for the 6.8 what kinda distance do you think it would cover?

With the caveat of having no experience on the 6.8, With a ranging ACOG I don't see why they can't get you out to 600 yards pretty easily.

d90king
06-27-09, 17:19
Your MRP would be perfectly adequate for the DMR class. You don't need a thousand-yard rifle for that. The optic is a bigger issue than the rifle but one guy (my spotter) used an AR/EOTech and was making good hits at 600 with some spotting.

If you're looking for the Precision Rifle class I believe they have loaner rifles for you to use. I actually think I'm going to hold of on getting a bolt gun until after I take PR1 just so I can learn what I want and don't want in a precision rifle.



With the caveat of having no experience on the 6.8, With a ranging ACOG I don't see why they can't get you out to 600 yards pretty easily.



Thank you for your input! Sounds like I will need new glass, I don't think my Leupold Mark IV CQ/T will cut it... I was going to wait until the LaRue was built, but this will give me a good reason to upgrade early.


Sounds like a class not to be missed. The "range" alone speaks for itself...:cool: I hope the dog is there for the class.

Gutshot John
06-27-09, 19:11
I don't think my Leupold Mark IV CQ/T will cut it... I was going to wait until the LaRue was built, but this will give me a good reason to upgrade early.

You could definitely take the class and have your Leupold work. It might be imperfect but it will work.

FireMoth
07-03-09, 00:47
The DMR course is pretty forgiving for set ups. Since the DMR is generally a gussied up battle rifle, we can teach you the techniques with a box stock carbine with a cheap fixed power optic lashed to it if need be. You may come to appreciate more refined and deliberate weapon systems, but the training is designed to maximize what you have.

Fundamentals carry over between types and styles of weapon systems with only modification for control types and locations. Training is designed to work on you as the shooter. If you want to learn how to work on your weapon system, well that is a different course ;)

Keep in mind that for demonstration purposes, as well as keeping the training areas safe from the varmint-cong, myself and hill simply threw whatever scopes we had handy onto our carbines.

Good glass goes a long way, but for a DMR almost any glass is a huge advantage over a non magnifying sight. A scope like the CQ/T has plenty going on in the reticle to establish hold overs for range, and clear enough glass to keep things running.

Though an accurate BDC is a boon, keep in mind that differences in barrel length, gas port diameter, gas system type, twist rate, as well as innumerable factors having to do with loads can affect how accurate they are, without even addressing environmental factors.

Since the DMR is intended as a faster moving, more dynamic weapon system than a precision rifle, we try and keep our noses out of our data books. However, we do take the time to confirm dopes at known distances, so we can find out how much, and how far (or, what the hold overs are, and what the maximum point target range of my weapon/optic/ammo combination is).

Hopefully we will be able to fill up some more DMR courses in the future. We had as much fun teaching the courses as the students did taking them, and maybe more.

On behalf of all the LRI instructors, a big thanks the the students in attendance at the DMR course. It was great having you guys out, and we look forward to seeing you again.
Both the sport and the practical application of shooting is advanced by the motivation and passion of shooters who constantly seek to improve their knowledge and skill, and its our pleasure to share our knowledge and learn from the experiences of students like you.

Thanks!