View Full Version : Parts Ain’t Parts
A frequent subject of discussion on this forum is “Parts are Parts.” Here is my experience building my second M4. Perhaps someone can learn from my mistakes. Please note that I am not writing this to bitch and moan, but to make you laugh at me. Enjoy. :p
I had a very specific plan for the upper assembly: Noveske 16” SS PG 1/7 mid-length gas bbl (borrowing a term from Grant, I’m a “barrel snob”); LaRue Tactical (LT) Stealth Upper; Taper-pinned front sight tower (FST); mil-spec shot-peened MPI bolt carrier group (BCG). I called Grant first, but he didn’t have the barrel or upper in stock, so I found another well-known internet retailer (that shall be nameless; not G&R, ADCO, Bravo Comp) that represented that he had everything in stock. He offered to have his in-house gunsmith drill the barrel for the taper pins and assemble the upper since I didn’t have the necessary jig. The retailer specifically said he had everything, including the LT Stealth upper, in stock. I didn’t ask for prices, I didn’t ask for discounts, I just gave them the credit card info.
Three weeks went by with no response. When I called he admitted that he had sold his last LT upper to someone else after he had already billed me for it. This lie was the first clue. I should have canceled the order then. Stupid me. :rolleyes:
I called Mark LaRue, and confirmed when he would be shipping uppers again. Mark is good guy. :)
Nine weeks later, the parts finally arrived. I assembled the rifle and sighted it in. Maybe 60 rounds. The FST was crooked, so I had to crank the rear LT BUIS all the way to the left to find black. Not good. :(
The next weekend I took the gun and the wife to Northern Utah to spend time with family over the Thanksgiving holiday. Went shooting with sons and daughters-in-law in 18° weather. Failure to feed (FTF) every single time. I figured it was the cold. So much for showing off the new ratgun. :(
After returning home to warmer weather, I cleaned it and oiled it with the lightest oil I had and tried again. Same problem, but less frequently. Switching lowers, and magazines (Pmag, Brownells, H&K and C Products,) made no difference at all.
I sent the upper back to the retailer, and asked him to fix the crooked FST and the FTF problem. He shipped it back to me without comment or explanation, and would not take my telephone calls. The FST was now properly oriented. I reassembled everything, but it still failed to feed too often. :(
I swallowed a big helping of crow, and called Grant. Starting with the cheapest fix first, he suggested a lighter spring and buffer. I ordered the parts and tried again. No improvement. I tried different ammo. I even made some really hot handloads that ruined primer pockets. The hot loads produced some improvement, but not resolution.
I figured it was a gas problem, so I removed the FST and saw that the taper-pin holes were all wrong. This could only have resulted from the retailer’s short-bus gunsmith carelessly misaligning the taper pin jig, and then deceptively foisting the sloppy work onto me. The scumbag retailer had then tried to fix the FST misalignment by hitting it with a hammer, but the two pot metal taper pins simply crumbled. By using substandard (probably Chinese-made) taper pins instead of what he billed me for, he increased his profits a couple of dollars. :mad:
Next, I checked the size of the gas port. Exactly within tolerance. Noveske does good work. I then flared the gas hole in the FST in an attempt resolve the gas port alignment problem, and reassembled it using standard quality pins purchased from Brownells. No improvement.
Desperate by now, I pulled the gas tube and found that the flared end was abraded flat on one side. Strange. The gas key was lightly staked, and the cap screws were tight, but I noticed that gas was leaking from between the key and carrier. The underside of the key was warped and covered with deep mill marks. No surprise, the inside of the key was rough as a cob, and black as a lawyer’s heart (no chrome plating). That explained the chewed-up gas tube. I reattached the gas key to the carrier, but when I torqued the cap screws, one broke off. Even the cap screws were cheap Chinese crap. Hopeless. :mad:
I don’t know who manufactured the bolt, but it was not marked with “MP.” By now I had no faith in any of the parts I had originally purchased other than the Noveske Barrel and LT upper, so I ordered a new gas tube, BCG, and other replacement parts from Grant. Some improvement, but still, frequent FTF.
The pinned FST was essential to the philosophy behind this build, but I finally surrendered to the Laws of Thermodynamics and ordered a JP A2 adjustable-gas, clamp-on, stainless steel FST (an absolutely beautiful piece of work, BTW). The rifle works perfectly now, but only after I replaced every single one of the originally-purchased parts (except the barrel and LT upper). :(
Now remember that I requested, was promised, and paid for, the highest-quality parts available from what is considered by many to be a reputable retailer. In fact, he used to have a banner on this forum. In your posts, some of you guys have mentioned buying stuff from him. Instead of getting what I ordered, and what I paid for, what I actually received was reject parts (except the barrel and upper) assembled by a dishonest incompetent. It took two years, and an extra $367 in parts and shipping, to get this gun working properly. Wasted time. Wasted money. Wasted ammo. :(
Lessons learned:
1. Parts ain’t parts: Ordering and even paying for quality parts doesn’t mean you get quality parts. Buy only from reputable people like Grant, Bravo C, ADCO, Brownells, etc.
2. Good parts are hard to find: Procuring quality parts is difficult enough for people that do it professionally. It’s even more difficult for amateurs like me. One-stop shopping from someone like Grant or Brownells, or buying an assembled gun from Colt or LMT or other established manufacturer that deals exclusively in quality parts, and has a huge reputation to lose, is cheaper, and quicker.
3. Appearances are deceiving: What appears to be a quality part, may actually be crap. The temptation to increase profits by using sub-standard parts and incompetent labor is too strong for some retailers. Caveat emptor.
4. Every man to his trade: Don’t trust a retailer to do irreversible gunsmithing work. He might ask his half-whit brother-in-law on furlough from drug-rehab to do it for him. ADCO recently did some excellent gunsmithing for me.
5. A silver Lining: Being forced to study the proper specifications and manufacturing techniques of nearly every component in the AR15 system was an education. :)
For what it’s worth. Pictures below. Note that I have since replaced the LT upper which I am using in an SPR build.
Keep You Powder Dry (KYPD)
MarshallDodge
06-26-09, 19:16
Good post. I have seen similar issues with different parts from different manufacturers. Reputation is worth paying for.
nicholst55
06-26-09, 22:26
So who was it?
+1. Please let us know so we won't waste our money on crap. I can see a couple of builds in my near future - as soon as I return to the States.
QuietShootr
06-26-09, 22:26
Yeah, I would like to know who that was.
Blankwaffe
06-26-09, 23:07
Ive had the same rotten luck with several suppliers and manufacturers.
I also agree that some of this crap is or has to be cheap china made junk and Im disgusted beyond belief with some of what Ive seen.I guess its part of the curse of buying a few thousand dollars worth of stuff in a very short period of time.
I started out buying from G&R and BCM early on in my shopping spree and later strayed to other suppliers when supply became limited...and I have paid for it in the end.Lesson learned for me.
Here is one of my rants from earlier:
"Other parts Ive had disgusting experience with from the corner cutting ham fisted blind monkeys recently are:
Buffer springs that take a huge set almost immediately.Falls below the -23 recommended minimum length.
Extractor springs that go flat and inserts made of plastic that turns to dust in short order,or are so hard they cause the extractor to bind until they turn to dust.
Gas rings that wear out in less than 500 rounds.
Undersized gas tubes(gas key end).
Soft gas keys with exceptionally rough bores.
YFS gas key screws that are brittle and undersized.
MIM extractors.
Cheap,thin charging handles.
FPRP that are oversized and will not fit in the BC.Have no idea what they fit but they dont belong in an AR.
Firing pins that are out of spec in diameter and in protrusion.
Cheap ars thin plastic handguards that defrom,creak,pop that if handled roughly the heat shields pop loose in.
I spent more money on return shipping of parts Ive ordered than what the parts were worth in the end.Needless to say I "aint buyin no more crap" from these folks.
I could go on but I see no use as Im preaching to the choir.
But it has got to the point with my upgrades for instance,that I call my remaining Armalite rifles/ upper assemblies LarMaliTes.
I guess Ive slowly become part of the "snobbery" here,because if its not BCM,LMT or Colt I aint buyin it anymore."
my names drew and i'm a high end-parts-aholic
So who was it?
Yes, please provide the retailer's name? :eek:
SkiDevil
Yes, please provide the retailer's name? :eek:
SkiDevil
Yep, +4 or 5 (whatever we're up to) inquiring minds and all that. ;)
allow me to chunk another bitch in here,, i'm tired of ordering multiple items from some of these jerks,,getting charged $100-$150 for an item not received, their responce IF they get tired of me faxing copies of invoice, calling, e-mailing is the old "we are showing this as shipped". got clipped again 2 weeks ago with trijicon shotgun sights. i have had excellent results from E-guns,, grant, and bravo.[and AIM] these other bozos are off my list. i'm really glad i have enough weaponry that i'm about caught up, for awhile.
yep parts ain't parts. and the sooner you learn to buy quality the first time the better off you are .:D
yep parts ain't parts. and the sooner you learn to buy quality the first time the better off you are .:D
learn also to buy from the right people[ as in people that has integrity]
Yep, +4 or 5 (whatever we're up to) inquiring minds and all that. ;)
I believe that I may know who this 'retailer' may be, but I would like to hear the name.:confused:
SkiDevil
So who was it?
Since you axe......
Denny's Guns/Global Tactical. :eek:
somebody needs to hand-cuff you and me together,,we have a lot in common.
somebody needs to hand-cuff you and me together,,we have a lot in common.
Pray Tell. If you are referring to Denny's/ Global Tactical Supply, Please share with us if it is not too painful/ taxing.
As a former customer, I would like to hear what happened?
SkiDevil:(
as i really enjoy this forum-- found out just how much i do fit from the replys about MJ, these are really my kind of guys--- i'll take my licks and just say i'm not ordering a lot from them flim-flammers..first time their fault--second----
nicholst55
06-27-09, 20:16
Since you axe......
Denny's Guns/Global Tactical. :eek:
Added to my 'No Business' list. Thanks! :cool:
thespyhunter
06-27-09, 21:11
That story sucks:mad:, but I believe it is all too common. Luckily, I havent been bitten yet.
This is my take ~ I have read enough on this site and TOS to understand that not everyone has a good handle on what they believe to be correct. I rarely visit TOS except to glance through the EE. Furthermore, I do believe that due to the quality of knowledge here vs ARFCOM, that I have become much more aware of what is good parts and where to get them. In other words, I have become somewhat of a "snob" also. I dont even buy anything locally except ammo. My go to list is short, and pretty much in stone :
** G&R Tactical
** Bravo Company
** Rainier
** LaRue
If one of these fine gents dont have it, I wait.
somebody needs to hand-cuff you and me together,,we have a lot in common.
Are you a 5'6", black haired, green eyed, natural female beauty with a boat and motor? :D
I'm surprised and disappointed to hear that about Denny/GTS. Before Noveske's N4 came out, I seriously considered an Operator upper, and never heard a bad word about that. Now on my "do not call" list. Same with CMMG.
I often need several items and look around to save $10 here and there on S&H. With lessons learned like the above, I don't do that much anymore. Now, it's more common for me to find the one or 2 items I need/want...and buy 2 of each...from a reputable vendor.
2=1 and 1=none; and anything from a crappy builder/vendor=bad bet.
Are you a 5'6", black haired, green eyed, natural female beauty with a boat and motor? :D
Send picture of boat and motor.:o
I'm surprised and disappointed to hear that about Denny/GTS. Before Noveske's N4 came out, I seriously considered an Operator upper, and never heard a bad word about that. Now on my "do not call" list. Same with CMMG.
I can't blame it all on Denny. After all, I was the willing dupe. :D
You may have noticed in my post that there were no quality problems with the LaRue Tactical Stealth upper receiver and the Noveske barrel I purchased. The quality problems were with the parts that I left to his discretion. If I had been smarter, I would have ordered, for example, an LMT BCG by name. I would also have sent the barrel to ADCO or other reputable gunsmith to get the FST taper pin holes drilled and not trusted machine work to a shopkeeper.
The point I'm trying to make is that I could have avoided much of the problem by being more intelligent in the manner in which I ordered the parts, and not giving him the chance to screw me.
But if I had been really smart, I would have just waited for Grant to get the parts I wanted back in stock. Ah well... "Don't know where were going, but no use being late." (name that quote)
Live and learn. :)
Send picture of boat and motor.:o
Very good!! An oldie but a goodie!:p
Any way of seeing pics of the broken parts or at least the butchered barrel work ?
Heavy Metal
06-28-09, 11:01
FWIW, taper pins are brittle and will shatter is you put enough shear forces on them.
FWIW, taper pins are brittle and will shatter is you put enough shear forces on them.
This is true, taper pins by necessity are very hard and not pliable. Hard steel will fracture instead of bend, doesn't even have to be "made in china". Attempting to straighten a leaning FSB by hammering is futile and thoughtless.
Whoever drilled the FSB/barrel didn't have things straight when they drilled it - and there is no second chance at that operation.
Heavy Metal
06-28-09, 14:53
This is true, taper pins by necessity are very hard and not pliable. Hard steel will fracture instead of bend, doesn't even have to be "made in china". Attempting to straighten a leaning FSB by hammering is futile and thoughtless.
Whoever drilled the FSB/barrel didn't have things straight when they drilled it - and there is no second chance at that operation.
Exactly. This was a bubba fix when a complete rework of the FSB was called for.
He should have realigned the FSB and drilled the holes out one size over.
urbankaos04
06-28-09, 14:57
I am surprised to hear about the problems that you had with your build. And it doesn't seem to be something GTS would put out quality wise. GTS is considered a good outfit and his Operator builds were pretty good.
Any way of seeing pics of the broken parts or at least the butchered barrel work ?
I can understand wanting to see some evidence of what I have written.
I looked through my used gunparts box, only to find, as expected, that I had tossed the fractured taper pins, the ragged gas tube, the broken cap screws at the gas key, and the gas key itself. They were junk. :mad:
I kept the carrier and bolt as spare parts. They look OK, but I don’t intend to rely on them. I also kept the FST.
OK, so here’s what I did. I removed the JP adjustable-gas FST and replaced it with Denny’s standard FST, and secured it with new taper pins (Colt products from Brownells). Then I attached the EOTECH sight, which is zeroed for this rifle at 100 yds, and adjusted the BUIS to match. I took pictures.
Next, I removed the FST and took some more pictures. Enjoy. :)
Before you look at the rest of my pics from my summer vacation in South Central, please note that with the JP FST aligned properly with the gas port, and at right angles to the upper receiver’s rails, the BUIS is centered exactly where one would expect it to be with the rifle zeroed in.
Ah, but now the funs begins, fellow travelers. See BUIS.jpg attached. Notice that, in order to align the BUIS with the nuts-on EOTECH, I had to crank the aperture all the way to the left. This exactly matches the condition of the rifle when I received it. Strange, no? :confused:
Next, let us remove the FST and gaze upon the fruits of Denny’s gunsmithing labors. See BarrelUnderside.jpg attached. This is a view of the underside of the barrel at the FST mounting band with the taper pins inserted into the holes. The muzzle is oriented to the top of the pic. Notice the two set-screw indentations made by Noveske centered precisely on the barrel centerline. Notice also that the taper pin holes are not centered on these indentations. Hard to see? More pics coming up.:cool:
See FSTUnderside.jpg attached. This is an especially interesting picture. Once again, fellow travelers, notice that the taper pin holes are not centered on the factory indentations. Did I hear you say WTF is that? Well, if you didn’t say it, I can tell you I sure did the first time I saw it. Notice that the two holes on the left side of the pic go ALL THE WAY THROUGH. :confused::mad::confused:
See BblUndersideVertHole.jpg attached. Notice again, how the taper pin holes are not centered. What did you day? No, of course that punch did not sprout from the barrel after a magical rain; I put it in a vertical hole that Denny drilled in my pretty barrel (wasn’t that nice of him?). :rolleyes:
See VertPinsSideView.jpg attached.
So, while Denny never did bother to enlighten me, this is what I think happened. Denny’s in-house gunsmith confused my order with one from a member of the “Krazy Ass Mexicans” gang (AKA KAM) living in Boyle Heights, and aligned his taper-pin hole jig for a “Gangsta” FST secured with vertical taper pins. You’ve no doubt seen these setups: the rear sight mounts on the forward assist. But when he checked the order, he realized his mistake, and so didn’t ream the holes. He then realigned the jig and drilled two horizontal holes and reamed them. But since he is a one-eyed, one-armed, three-fingered, bugger-lickin, dyslexic tweaker on furlough from drug-rehab, his alignment was off. (Did you hear the one about the insomniac, dyslexic, agnostic that stayed awake every night wondering “is there really a Dog?”). ;)
But, don’t get excited, fellow travelers; everyone makes mistakes. The test of the man is what he does when he realizes his mistake. What was Global Tactical’s business decision in this case? Well, Denny’s dyslexic gunsmith (or maybe it was Denny himself?) decided to hide the screw-up under the FST and ship it off to the idiot customer. Inconveniently, the matter didn’t end there. When I complained directly to Denny, and returned the mess to him to fix, did he replace the barrel? Hell no, it’s a $450 barrel!! Did he offer to install a clamp-on gas block/FST? Hell no! Those cost money!! His decision was to wack the FST with a hammer, shattering the pot-metal taper pins he paid 4 cents apiece for. I can just imagine him chortling “that’s good enough for city work.”
You judge for yourself.
Ouch. I'm sorry this happened to you. I would consider the barrel ruined and insist on a new replacement even if you have to drag it out on his home playground.
Ouch. I'm sorry this happened to you. I would consider the barrel ruined and insist on a new replacement even if you have to drag it out on his home playground.
Kansas City Mo is a long way to go just to argue with a man that, when given the chance to do the right thing, decided in favor of his own pocket. No sense sending bad money after good, and interstate law is less than useless, in this case. I wish that I had filed a dispute with my credit card company then, but too much time went by before I realized the error.
You can't buy a reputation, but you can sure sell one. Denny did.
I can understand wanting to see some evidence of what I have written.
When I complained directly to Denny, and returned the mess to him to fix, did he replace the barrel?
A few of Questions:
Exactly, how long ago did this happen?
What was his (verbal) reponse when you complained directly to him?
And, is there a reason that you decided to wait until now to share this experience with the rest of the members?:confused:
Thanks,
SkiDevil
Sounds about right. I ordered an extension tube, spring, and buffer over the phone with Denny one day. He told me they were all in stock. Two weeks later I called and he told me they couldn't get buffers. WTF??? Could barely get the guy off the phone, he talked alot. Finally got my buffer tube kit a couple weeks later. Don't tell me something if you aren't positively sure or say otherwise.
I can understand wanting to see some evidence of what I have written.
When I complained directly to Denny, and returned the mess to him to fix, did he replace the barrel?
A few of Questions:
Exactly, how long ago did this happen?
What was his (verbal) reponse when you complained directly to him?
And, is there a reason that you decided to wait until now to share this experience with the rest of the members?:confused:
Thanks,
SkiDevil
I believe the order was made in May or June of 2007. I did not receive all the parts and pieces to the gun until November of 2007.
I called Denny DIRECTLY and explained the problems: canted FST, FTF. I had not yet removed the FST. His response was "return it and I will take care of it."
I returned the upper assembly to him. He shipped it back. Did he disassemble the FST himself and examine it? I don't know. That's his responsibility. As an experienced gun retailer (14 years he states) with the confidence to sell builds with his name engraved on them, wouldn't he be suspicious of a canted FST that came out of his shop, and one that was pinned to boot? Do you doubt that he'd wonder whether or not the holes had been drilled and reamed improperly? Don't you think he inspected it himself? Would a responsible gun retailer, after inspecting a mess like this, fix it with a blow of hammer and return it to the customer without a word of explanation?
The simple truth is I don't know what he did when the upper assembly was back in his hands. But I can't accept the supposition that this continued to be an innocent mistake AFTER the upper assembly was returned to him, and he had the opportunity to examine it. He is not an amateur.
As to why I waited so long to submit the story to the forum, that was simply a matter of timing. Fed up with the FTF after being razzed again by a friend in Oregon for having a "bent" M4 when we shooting together last May, I broke down and ordered the JP FST. It is an expensive piece of kit, and it is in direct contravention to the philosophy behind the build since it clamps on, so it was not an easy decision, especially since I was already soured on the rifle. It wasn't fun anymore. But I installed the JP FST three weeks ago and was thrilled that the gun now works really, really well. Then, the subject of Parts is Parts came up on the forum, and so I thought you all might find the story entertaining. That is the timing.
I did not write the post in the hopes of getting advice (I already knew what I had done wrong, and Grant had reminded me of my errors a year ago when I whined to him). I did not post the story to get revenge on Denny. I did not post the story to elicit pity: I know it makes me look like an idiot. I posted it for a laugh, and so yous guys could learn from my mistakes. Therefore, the timing is not suspicious, unless you are the suspicious type, SkiDevil. Laugh at me. I do. Just don't ask me to defend my post anymore unless you want to meet in person and examine the gun and the receipts yourself. Give me an email and we can arrange something.
I believe the order was made in May or June of 2007. I did not receive all the parts and pieces to the gun until November of 2007.
I called Denny DIRECTLY and explained the problems: canted FST, FTF. I had not yet removed the FST. His response was "return it and I will take care of it."
I returned the upper assembly to him. He shipped it back. Did he disassemble the FST himself and examine it? I don't know. That's his responsibility. As an experienced gun retailer (14 years he states) with the confidence to sell builds with his name engraved on them, wouldn't he be suspicious of a canted FST that came out of his shop, and one that was pinned to boot? Do you doubt that he'd wonder whether or not the holes had been drilled and reamed improperly? Don't you think he inspected it himself? Would a responsible gun retailer, after inspecting a mess like this, fix it with a blow of hammer and return it to the customer without a word of explanation?
The simple truth is I don't know what he did when the upper assembly was back in his hands. But I can't accept the supposition that this continued to be an innocent mistake AFTER the upper assembly was returned to him, and he had the opportunity to examine it. He is not an amateur.
As to why I waited so long to submit the story to the forum, that was simply a matter of timing. Fed up with the FTF after being razzed again by a friend in Oregon for having a "bent" M4 when we shooting together last May, I broke down and ordered the JP FST. It is an expensive piece of kit, and it is in direct contravention to the philosophy behind the build since it clamps on, so it was not an easy decision, especially since I was already soured on the rifle. It wasn't fun anymore. But I installed the JP FST three weeks ago and was thrilled that the gun now works really, really well. Then, the subject of Parts is Parts came up on the forum, and so I thought you all might find the story entertaining. That is the timing.
I did not write the post in the hopes of getting advice (I already knew what I had done wrong, and Grant had reminded me of my errors a year ago when I whined to him). I did not post the story to get revenge on Denny. I did not post the story to elicit pity: I know it makes me look like an idiot. I posted it for a laugh, and so yous guys could learn from my mistakes. Therefore, the timing is not suspicious, unless you are the suspicious type, SkiDevil. Laugh at me. I do. Just don't ask me to defend my post anymore unless you want to meet in person and examine the gun and the receipts yourself. Give me an email and we can arrange something.
First of all, I just want you to know that I don't think this situation was funny. I did not laugh when I read your post. I am sorry that your experience was bad with Denny's Guns / Global Tactical Supply. This was not the type of experience I have had with them.
And, again I DO NOT think you are an idiot, ANYONE can get taken. I just personally feel that it takes a bigger man to admit it (many people say nothing). I also believe that if most people answered truthfully, they would acknowledge that they have been ripped-off at some point in life.
-I know that I have been personnally ripped-off by a couple of unscrupulous mechanics (Live and Learn).
I am grateful for you sharing your experience with us. I do not doubt you had a problem with GTS. Problems occur in every type of business/ organization. Just like it has already been said, what often divulges the type of person you are dealing with is how the individual or organization responds to the problem, after the problem or mistake is brought to light.
I don't believe that you are looking for revenge or to bad mouth anyone. Your reluctance to divulge the name of the retailer clearly showed that. I wanted to know the name because from the references you made about the postings and the banner, I was fairly certain which retailer you were referring to in the post.
Finally, the purpose for my requesting additional information regarding your experience is because I have spent just over $2,000 with GTS and I will use your experience for future reference, when I consider purchasing additional service/ merchandise. I hope that anyone else who has had a problem/s with any dealer/ retailer lets us all know. Because good information is the key to making an informed decision and if a particular business continually provides poor service and/ or merchandise. They will eventually fail.
Thank you,
SkiDevil
P.S. I am very glad to hear that your rifle is working well now.:D:D
Jay Cunningham
07-01-09, 11:45
It looks like this thread is starting to turn into a one guy slam on Denny's Guns/GTS.
If you're "not naming names", then don't name names. Either your intent was to discuss parts not being parts, or was ultimately to smear the name of Denny's Guns.
It's pretty obvious that the second scenario is precisely what you set out to do, under the guise of discussing "parts"....
You have contacted the manufacturer and got a response to your issues - that has not worked out for you.
This thread has run its course.
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