View Full Version : Gun safes, in a perdiciment about appropriate storage, protection, and mobility.
RadioActivity
06-29-09, 08:52
Okay. Basically I own quite the assortment of firearms, and they are all very precious to me. I am a college student and I rent, and am some what restless moving about once every two years so far...
That said, my current firearms storage consists of cable locks and removing firing pins. This is not acceptable to me and I would like to get a real deal safe, to store my firearms and expensive accessories, to both protect them from both theft and any form of home owner disaster (flood, fire), as well as the humid east coast air. Last I am unable to give my guns a once over periodically because I am away for long lengths of time due to the military, and while the house is occupied, I don't want to task anyone with wiping down my guns for me.
In such a situation when I am deployed, I leave my guns in a friend's safe but ask that he not handle them (I seal them in non-porous bags and use a vapor rust inhibitor and desiccant). I would like to have a safe of my own for this situation.
I require storage for the following so far:
-7 Semi automatic rifles with optics - 38'' in length
-11 Pistols, 2 very large frame revolvers, though most are 4-5'' barreled pistol format
-2 Semi automatic rifles with optics - 46''
-3 Misc long arms such as .22 rifles, Shotgun, ect
-Various Optics and accessories that would be costly to replace.
Also I plan to get into long range precision shooting soon enough and I'd like to add a few bolt action precision rigs to my stable, which will be long in over all length and have clunky optics on them.
I would like to keep the safe a size where I do not have to remove door jams in the average north American home, or need to hire a professional moving crew. I would like it to be manageable by 3 or 4 adult males with some ingenuity and determination. I realize that most safes offer protection by the sheer difficulty of moving them, but for mine I think I will simply have to rely on affixing it to the floor in some semi-permanent manner.
I am a bit over whelmed safe shopping...can anyone offer advice?
1. Buy more safe than you think you need currently.
2. Guns breed in the dark, hence the need for a bigger safe.
3. If it's not bolted down to concrete, 2 fools and a set of carpet sliders will cause your safe to vanish--pretty well regardless of size/weight.
4. Polygunbags.com is a good source of longterm storage bags (VCI).
5. Goldenrods work, however they do require you to leave the power on at your place even when gone on deployments.
6. Good large safes cost large amounts of money. Expect to spend over $1500.
7. If you have a lot of pistols, buy the auxillary door rack.
8. Always lock your safe properly, whenever you leave the property.
9. Keep a spare set of keys in a secure location (another safe, or a safe-deposit box at the bank, etc.
10. Mfgrs overestimate the number of guns you can store in their safes and still be able to remove them easily.
11. Scoped rifles and those with pistolgrips take up a relatively large amount of space in your safe, and those with both scopes AND pistolgrips are a royal pain in regards to storage space...
12. Assume that whatever you put in the safe, WILL get storage dings.
That's all I can think of from personal experience.
1. Buy more safe than you think you need currently.
I've got a large 72 x 48 x 28" safe at 1200 lbs. Thought I bought big enough but I'm running out of room for long guns 18 pistols, 5 shotguns & 32 long guns. SBR/M4's and folders are on 2nd shelf and running out of room for long guns.
2. Guns breed in the dark, hence the need for a bigger safe.
+1 (x2)
3. If it's not bolted down to concrete, 2 fools and a set of carpet sliders will cause your safe to vanish--pretty well regardless of size/weight.
When bolted down, you can add half a pallet of bagged shot on the floor to add weight. Shot got so expensive a couple of years ago I decided to keep my extra in the safe:rolleyes:
4. Polygunbags.com is a good source of longterm storage bags (VCI).
Not a bad idear. I've been using those silicone gun socks over wood and pristine plastic stocked long guns to keep them from getting safe dings.
5. Goldenrods work, however they do require you to leave the power on at your place even when gone on deployments.
+1
6. Good large safes cost large amounts of money. Expect to spend over $1500.
I'd venture to bump that to 2-4.5K. Find a a good safe Rep and see if he has any used safes for 10-15% off. Check ebay, craigs, newspaper. Read up on fireproofing from different safe manufacturers. It's not all the same.
7. If you have a lot of pistols, buy the auxillary door rack.
+1
8. Always lock your safe properly, whenever you leave the property.
Anchor it. If you have a torch/plasma cutter in the garage, you might want to leave the combo on a sticky next to the combo dial
9. Keep a spare set of keys in a secure location (another safe, or a safe-deposit box at the bank, etc.
10. Mfgrs overestimate the number of guns you can store in their safes and still be able to remove them easily.
11. Scoped rifles and those with pistolgrips take up a relatively large amount of space in your safe, and those with both scopes AND pistolgrips are a royal pain in regards to storage space...
12. Assume that whatever you put in the safe, WILL get storage dings.
Measure your jambs and speak with the dealer. A floor jack, pallet jack, 1/2-3/4" plywood make moving mine a breeze. Stairs I haven't tackled yet. ring, ring, 'Hello, Beacons....'.
If you own your own home and have a basement, ponder the idea ov building a vault and just buying a door for 2K.
Not a bad idea. I've been using those silicone gun socks over wood and pristine plastic stocked long guns to keep them from getting safe dings.
This works for me too.
If you provide a location there might be a dealer or manufacturer near you that someone else would recommend. For instance http://www.johnsonsafe.com/ is highly recommended for quality, customer service and value.
Buckaroo
A good article: http://www.6mmbr.com/gunsafes.html.
You and a friend could assemble this type http://www.zanottiarmor.com/. Looks like a pretty good investment if you'll be moving around every couple of years.
RadioActivity
06-29-09, 13:53
I saw the safe buying guide, which is a good start. Now im just trying to think of realistically what size I should go with if i have to move it. I don't really know the cost of having something like a 1k lb safe shipped from say...PA to UT. I figure if I have to I can move any height/width of safe as long as its not too deep for a door frame.
The Zanotti safes are designed to be assembled/disassembled for moving and to get them set up in tight spaces where a conventional safe might not work.
Good luck!
One of the better ideas my wife and I have had for our safe....
I give to you:
THE DOOR OF DOOM!
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/dave5339/IMG_3619.jpg
In our work in progress home defense plan my wife's station, (after helping me clear the hallway/retrieve kids) is behind this with three small kids behind her. She has her choice of many different items inside the safe. The main game plan involves a Surefire equipped Remington 870 loaded with 00 buckshot.
Semper Fi
Where might one purchase the door sized pals web?
Where might one purchase the door sized pals web?
We had that one custom made by Armchair Tactical (http://armchairtactical.com/default.aspx). The panel itself was around $85 if I remember correctly.
The shotgun panel was also done by Armchair Tactical as we couldn't find just what we wanted in the retail market.
All the work I've seen done by them has been top notch.
Semper Fi
Anchor it. If you have a torch/plasma cutter in the garage, you might want to leave the combo on a sticky next to the combo dial
Why did you have to say that? My ignorance was so blissful.:mad:
Elmer Fudd
06-30-09, 00:24
Here's some info I put together several years ago (2002, so manufacturer data is old, as is pricing) when buying our safe:
This is what I have learned while researching the purchase of my first gun safe. I plan to use it to protect a few firearms and various household valuables.
Gun safes come in two basic varieties – burglary and combination. Combination safes combine burglary and fire protection. Fire protection is accomplished via a lining of either a poured concrete amalgamate material (retained with either 16 gauge inner or outer cladding) or sheets of heat resistant fireboard similar to sheetrock. Fire resistance is measured by temperature and length of time. Some are certified by rating agencies such as U.L using a fire classification system. For instance, their 350 degree certification means that the interior temperature remains below 350 degrees when exposed to an exterior fire at 1700 degrees for one hour with less than a 275 degree rise in internal temperature. Various other tests are required for this, to include explosion hazard and impact. Better safes use the heavier concrete amalgamate material. Fire protection is also dependent on a tight fitting door and strips of heat activated material that look like thick tape that line the interior door frame. In a fire these strips expand to seal the door against the frame. A 1 hour 1700 degree fire rating is the minimum for a good gun safe, and is accomplished with 1.5 to 2" of fire resistant material. Intelligent placement of the safe is also very important (away from flammables, near exterior walls, etc.).
A safe will only delay a determined thief, so the most important protective factor is to have it alarmed with a motion sensor or other device so a thief cannot work undisturbed. After this you need to keep an attacker out of your safe for the couple minutes they might have in a smash and grab raid with the alarm triggered. A basic safe can provide this protection for a reasonable price. More expensive safes provide increased peace of mind or are for higher value items or collections or for locations where police response time is a problem. Insurance companies provide price breaks for some customers that carry riders for high value items if they have a certain rated safe.
Construction ratings specify what a safe is made of but are not lab tested for performance. B rated safes have a minimum ½” steel doors and no minimum body thickness. C rated safes have a minimum 1” steel door and ½” steel body thickness.
Performance ratings measure how long a safe is certified to resist attacks with specific kinds of tools. U.L. has a residential security rating that specifies that a safe must resist attack with common hand tools for 5 minutes, to include time spent removing the goodies. Hmm … More stringent ratings range from TL-15 (15 minutes with hand tools and portable mechanical and electrical tools) up to TXTL-60 (to include cutting torches and explosives). The vast majority of residential gun safes do not carry a rating above U.L. residential security because of the expense and the fact that the higher level ratings are more for commercial safes.
Burglary protection is accomplished through wall thickness, door thickness, lock protection, and relocking devices. Note that the following dimensions refer to steel thickness only and do not include fire protective material thickness.
Most low-end gun safes use 3/16” or 1/8” steel for the walls. Consensus is that someone with a sledge hammer or maul could smash their way in in a couple of minutes, or possibly use a sawsall or other powered tool to just open up the safe like a can. ¼” high tensile steel wall thickness is the minimum for a serious gun safe.
Door thickness can range from 3/16” steel up to several inches. The door and frame need to be strong enough to resist pry attacks with either hand tools or a hydraulic spreader. ½” high tensile steel door thickness is the minimum for a serious gun safe.
Lock protection is important. Almost every safe manufacturer uses Sergeant & Greenleaf combination locks. One option is to have a key-locked dial to prevent someone trying to guess the combination or use a listening device. You can change the lock’s combination yourself with a kit the manufacturer will sell you for $20 or so. Key locking dials cost a few bucks more. Electronic keypad locks are an option, but depend on a battery (which can be charged from the outside if drained). A hardened plate and/or a ball bearing plate should protect the lock. If anyone tries to drill through the ball bearings will get caught in and shatter the drill bits.
The lock should drive 3 or more 1-inch bolts into the frame on either side of the door. Upper and lower bolts are more for show. Most low-end gun safes have large numbers of very shiny bolts. Anti drive mechanisms resist interference with the bolt mechanism.
Relocking devices activate when the safe is tampered with. They are connected to spring loaded bolts that lock into the doorframe if the safe is tampered with. Glass plate relockers activate if the safe is pushed over or dropped (although these can break during shipment – most now use alternatives). Thermal relockers activate if the interior temperature increases due to a torch attack. There are other types of relocking mechanisms. A good gun safe will have several.
Miscellaneous features include the ability to bolt the safe down (very important, I prefer two bolt holes in the bottom of the safe as a minimum) and aesthetic options such as gloss paint job, pin striping, and the kind of handle on the front. The larger safes can have the interior configured to your wishes when ordered.
A good method of comparing raw protection is to compare safes based on weight per cubic foot. Most low-end combination gun safes that you can purchase locally weigh 800 lbs. in the 30 cubic foot range. A good gun safe will weigh twice that.
My research suggests the following tiers in terms of protection:
Excellent – Brown Safe Manufacturing, Graffunder Safe LLC
Good – American Security
Moderate – Fort Knox, Liberty, Sun Welding, National Security, Heritage Safe, Browning
Poor – Sentry
All the manufacturers have web sites and a couple allow you to order direct. I got much better pricing this way (and no local sales tax!) as compared to buying locally, even though I have to pay the freight. Note that these general ratings are based on web research and conversations with a couple of companies, not personal or expert experience. I have ordered a Graffunder for delivery at the end of January, so please solicit the board for specific knowledge others might have.
One piece of consistent advice I see is to get the biggest safe that you can possibly afford, as you will grow into it. This is a one-time purchase that will hopefully last decades, so look at the price as an additional, very affordable insurance policy spread over 30 years or more.
What does a good gun safe cost? A Graffunder or Brown B-rated safe in the 40 cubic foot interior space range will weigh about 2300 lbs. and cost about $3500. Delivery from the left coast to Alabama is about $600.
Perhaps the most important protection, however, is unseen, in the alarm system that covers the safe and home, and passive, in the sense that you should remain discreet about telling others about valuables in your home.
ETA: One nice feature is an electric line wired into the safe. This allows you to use an electric Goldenrod type dehumidifier, although you need some kind of airgap around the door seal to let humidity escape the safe. Otherwise you need to use desiccant cans or packs, which become just another pain in the rear maintenance chore.
Safes are relatively easy to move around using iron pipes as rollers and long pry bars as levers (sold as post hole diggers in the building materials section at Home Depot or Lowe's). Be very careful as SAFES ARE VERY TIPPY AND SIDE HEAVY ON THE DOOR SIDE. AN EMPTY, NOT YET BOLTED DOWN SAFE CAN/WILL TIP OVER WHEN THE DOOR IS OPENED ALL THE WAY. THEY WILL TIP OVER ON ANYTHING OTHER THAN LEVEL GROUND OR IF YOU TURN THEM TOO FAST ON A PALLET JACK. An employee at a local outdoors store had one fall on him and break his back. The first thing you should do once the safe is in position is to bolt it to the (concrete) floor with the right hardware.
My safe made it all the way from Oregon to Alabama, then fell over in the delivery truck when it turned a corner. It had to go all the way back for repair (on the trucking company's dime).
I was in a similar situation as the OP. As a military member, I tend to move around alot--and have picked up a few firearms over the years. I purchased a Zanotti safe and it works as advertised. It's shipped via freight and I was able to use a handcart to move the components into the house, down the stairs, and into the basement.
Assembly was pretty easy, but I needed help getting the door on. I'm planning a PCS in Jan/Feb to Germany, so my guns will need to stay CONUS. So I'm going to pack it all up, put it in a U-haul, and take it to my brother's house in another state--safe and all.
The safe is an investment--need to look at it that way. A $2500 investment to protect a $10K collection
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