View Full Version : Feds check for guns - have any problem with that?
Business_Casual
07-01-09, 11:59
I mean, it is only to keep you safe, after all.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6505651.html
M_P
I'll bite.
I don't like it at all. Yes, I understand that an active criminal element likes our toys, too, and they do bad things with them. But how much of my God-given, inalienable rights must I compromise in order to "be safe". I think Benjamin Franklin was on target when he stated, (loose paraphrase) "those who give up essential liberties for promises of security get & deserve neither."
Kinda kidding here: the guns are leaving the USA which should make the Feds happy. :cool: I know, I know... bad humor.
Serious again: It's a matter of time before someone will claim "legal precedent" when this or the next Administration declares you/me/us "terrorists" as Janet Reno did for those who love the Constitution, gun rights, etc., and begins to act on it. I feel it's always better to be safe than sorry. No pun intended. Keep gov't on a short leash and feed it with a long handle spoon.
If you don't like it then don't cooperate if they ever come to your door. Nobody ever said you had to speak with them. Tell them to go away.
The police can come to your door and ask to search any time, for any reason.
Don't want them to? Say no. The article you referenced clearly stated they didn't have warrants. So the people whose homes they're searching are consenting.
How can the woman living here buy four high-end handguns in one day?
The house is worth $35,000. A screen dangles by a wall-unit air conditioner. Porch swing slats are smashed, the smattering of grass is flattened by cars and burned yellow by sun.
Sounds like they are investigating suspected straw purchases. I see no problem here. They aren't kicking down doors with "no knock" warrants, they are talking to people. Sounds like an ATF agents job...
Mexican officials in 2008 asked federal agents to trace the origins of more than 7,500 firearms recovered at crime scenes in Mexico. Most of them were traced back to Texas, California and Arizona.
Among other things, the agents are combing neighborhoods and asking people about suspicious purchases as well as seeking explanations as to how their guns ended up used in murders, kidnappings and other crimes in Mexico.
Following up on crime guns. Once again I have no issue.
Among other things, the agents are combing neighborhoods and asking people about suspicious purchases...
The article makes it sound like they are just walking door to door questioning people about guns. Thats not what they are doing. They are following up on flagged suspected straw purchases and tracing the origins of recovered crime guns.
Kinda kidding here: the guns are leaving the USA which should make the Feds happy. I know, I know... bad humor.
I see your point of view. But, the straw purchases and unlawful conversions/transfers are occurring in the USA.
My point of view is; Are we (RKBA crowd) not always saying "We don't need new laws- Enforce the ones we already have!" Well it looks to me that thats what's they are attempting to do. Nothing new here, straw purchasing has been a crime for a long time.
I have no sympathy for the criminal element. They are the ones that are making life hard for the law abiding gun enthusiasts.
The police can come to your door and ask to search any time, for any reason.
Don't want them to? Say no. The article you referenced clearly stated they didn't have warrants. So the people whose homes they're searching are consenting.
I didn't read anywhere in the article that they were searching anyones home. Consent or otherwise...
woodandsteel
07-01-09, 14:08
I didn't read anywhere in the article that they were searching anyones home. Consent or otherwise...
It's implied in the article that they are doing knock and talks. That usually leads to a request for a consent search. It just happened that noone appeared to be home at the house they visited in the article.
They seem to be trying to put pressure on straw man purchases. If people are engaged in that kind of business, then screw them. They are a threat to honest gun owners. However, I can see it getting a little out of hand with time.
This kind of cracked me up;
“I am out of here,” Sloan said a few moments later, as a pit bull lazily sauntered from the back yard. “I don’t like pit bulls walking up behind me.”
Most of the pit bulls that we encounter are pussy cats. At least the ones that roam around in yards.
I would really like to know what kind of guns the gangsters prefer. Around here, it is whatever they can steal.
It turned out two handguns, of a type drug gangsters prefer, were bought by a pastor for target practice.
there's nothing wrong with this particular instance- this is all standard proceedure when investigating gun crime. you go to the last person on file as buying the gun, and find out where it went from there.
cops have every right to pay visits and ask questions. i havent even seen any indication that any warrants have been served, or any arrests made. if guns originating in the States are recovered in drug cartel hands, and you can establish that Americans have been making the purchases for them- go for it.
i've sold plenty of guns FTF over the years- i have NO doubt that i will, eventually, be visited by LEOs investigating a crime or crimes related to one or more of those guns- guns get stolen, guns get recovered from drug dealers, guns get confiscated during DVs, etc. if a cop calls and wants to know where a particular gun went, i'll cooperate or not when the time comes, depending on the situation- but i wont hold anythign against the investigator just for calling/stopping by.
I would really like to know what kind of guns the gangsters prefer. Around here, it is whatever they can steal.
yea, you can say gangsters "prefer" any given gun... stupid comment. that could mean anything from a 380 Hipoint to a 50AE desert eagle.
It's been a while since I blindly waded into a hot-button topic thread, so what the hey... :cool:
I think it sucks. Is it the end of the world? No. Do the agents on the ground have any ill-intent in the actions? Probably not most, but that doesn't matter anyway - right reasons, wrong reasons, whatever -- it still happening. Does it work at it's overtly stated goals? Time will tell. I kind of doubt it has any great effect. It'll catch a few dummards, and scare some "maybes" into not taking the chance. That's a separate discussion, though.
I think it sucks, even if it works. A bunch of rough-looking folks in the poor part of town may not be the best crowd to earn sympathy, but the fact is, going door to door asking them about their purchases, that could just as easily be my nice little suburban neighborhood, or my parents out in rural OK.
It's not so much the people who are getting asked about actual crime weapons that bothers me the most -- if you buy a gun and then it's recovered at a crime scene across the border before the ink on your 4473 even dries, don't be surprised when the ATF shows up asking questions (We could argue about the fact that they can trace it so easily, but that's not new and not going to change anytime soon). But that pastor, who got a special visit because he bought two guns "of a type drug gangsters prefer"? That's not right. Buying a gun -- no matter the type -- should not automatically make you suspect. How would any of us feel if agents came knocking because we had bought an AR, wanting to know why we had it and what we were using it for? I'm not much of a tin foiler but that doesn't change the fact that the less the gov't has to do with me, the better. No matter how you spin the intent, investigating otherwise law-abiding citizens simply on the basis of the fact they bought a gun -- no matter the type -- is a step too far. It's a concept lost on most of America today, but I would far prefer to deal with the consequences of living in a free society, and the risks that come with it (like guns getting into the hands of bad people sometimes) than to live under a boot somewhere. I hate to fall on the cliché of quoting Jefferson, but like so many other ideas, he really did say it best: "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it."
I think that registration is going to be one of the next big battles in the gun control arena. The Heller decision seems to have left it a wide open possibility, and it's going to be very easy to sell it on a large scale to the constituency. Too long has our only defense been a constant regurgitation of "registration leads to confiscation" with little more said. Now we'll hear "They can't round up the guns because the 2nd amendment says so" and talk of it being a reasonable restriction that won't harm honest folks, but will help keep those nice folks south of the border from shooting at one another. Meanwhile, the NRA and gun lobby has so long relied on beating the war drum and bleating "they're gonna take your guns!" that they won't be able to mount a very effective defense against it. With the media running spin on it, anybody who complains too loudly will just be a paranoid, backwards-thinking bumpkin.
wawawait... these guys are doing to peoples houses based SOLEY on their purchases?
i'd thought they were vising the houses of people who'd purchased guns that HAD been recovered from mexican cartels
yes- i have a big ****in problem with cops hassling people because of the guns they've bought- if there's no other reason.
first of all- where the hell are they getting the information to begin with? how is that even possible?
ETA: i just re-read the article- i'm not reading anything that indicates these "visits" are preemptive- can anyone clarify? it reads, to me, at least, that they're following up on guns recovered from mexico- not just visiting people for buying guns.
wawawait... these guys are doing to peoples houses based SOLEY on their purchases?
i'd thought they were vising the houses of people who'd purchased guns that HAD been recovered from mexican cartels
yes- i have a big ****in problem with cops hassling people because of the guns they've bought- if there's no other reason.
first of all- where the hell are they getting the information to begin with? how is that even possible?
ETA: i just re-read the article- i'm not reading anything that indicates these "visits" are preemptive- can anyone clarify? it reads, to me, at least, that they're following up on guns recovered from mexico- not just visiting people for buying guns.
The article indicates that the visits are based on inspections of 4473s, which is how they ended up with a pastor who bought two pistols for target shooting. So, if you buy from that area and meet their test for suspicion, you get a visit. Seems like that would be enough to chill at least some protected activity.
Business_Casual
07-01-09, 15:27
The article indicates that the visits are based on inspections of 4473s, which is how they ended up with a pastor who bought two pistols for target shooting. So, if you buy from that area and meet their test for suspicion, you get a visit. Seems like that would be enough to chill at least some protected activity.
That's the key - it is a government fishing expedition. There is no crime to investigate.
M_P
That's the key - it is a government fishing expedition. There is no crime to investigate.
M_P
Such expeditions are, of course, legal. The problem is when the expeditions deter people from carrying out lawful activities because they don't want to be harassed.
The article indicates that the visits are based on inspections of 4473s, which is how they ended up with a pastor who bought two pistols for target shooting. So, if you buy from that area and meet their test for suspicion, you get a visit. Seems like that would be enough to chill at least some protected activity.
hmm.. well then that is QUITE disturbing.
i have a problem with this, and i'd react with hostility if someone came knocking because i'd just bought guns they didn't think i should be able to afford. IN FACT- i fit this case perfectly: you should see my house right now, overgrown, tools and construction materials piled up everywhere, house missing siding, beat up work truck parked in the driveway, mailbox bent over at an angle... hell, they'd RAID my house.
wawawait... these guys are doing to peoples houses based SOLEY on their purchases?
i'd thought they were vising the houses of people who'd purchased guns that HAD been recovered from mexican cartels
yes- i have a big ****in problem with cops hassling people because of the guns they've bought- if there's no other reason.
first of all- where the hell are they getting the information to begin with? how is that even possible?
ETA: i just re-read the article- i'm not reading anything that indicates these "visits" are preemptive- can anyone clarify? it reads, to me, at least, that they're following up on guns recovered from mexico- not just visiting people for buying guns.
How'd they get the info? Sounds like bound books nad 4473 copies, to me:
The mission is especially challenging because, officials say, that while Houston is the number one point of origin for weapons traced back to the United States from Mexico, the government can’t compile databases on gun owners under federal law.
Agents instead review firearms dealers’ records in person.
You never know how the reporter may have fubared the facts, but it sounds like this:
Another tip took agents on a 30-minute drive from the shack to a sprawling home with a pool in the back and an American flag out front.
It turned out two handguns, of a type drug gangsters prefer, were bought by a pastor for target practice.
...is an example of going to visit a guy just because of what he had bought, expecting it to be a straw deal, only to find he'd bought them for himself legitimately.
It also makes me wonder about this story:
The lamest so far came from a police officer: He said he bought a few military-style rifles, left them in his car and — on the same night — forgot to lock a door. He couldn’t explain why he didn’t file a police report or why he visited Mexico the day after the alleged theft.
If those guns were recovered in Mexico, and that led them back this guy, that's a righteous catch, I think (aside from revealing our system of defacto registration). But if they were just looking at this guy because he had bought some "military style rifles", and then found out his shenanigans, it's an example of stumbling into a good catch through, in my opinion, a very disagreeable method. Simply hitting up a guy because of buying rifles is wrong, even if the outcome of finding a smuggler is good. BUT...we don't have enough facts based on the story to know one way or another, and that's important to note.
I am thinking that you (or I!) am reading it wronge.
The bottom is them telling some tidbits about various stake-outs. One of these stakeouts is when the LEO guys see guns move from a "shack" type home to a big house with a pool.... whome we assume is the mentioned Pastor.
I think that this is one topic of the various:
Another tip took agents on a 30-minute drive from the shack to a sprawling home with a pool in the back and an American flag out front.
It turned out two handguns, of a type drug gangsters prefer, were bought by a pastor for target practice.
So one of the stakeouts takes the cops 30 min away from the shack that was being monitored by the undercover agents to a sprawling place owned by a pastor who like to target shoot with his illegally purchased hand guns.
I'll take another shot at this.
I think people are reading a lot into the article that isn't there. But, I think the author wants you to in order to stir the pot and increase readership.
I'm guessing that the ATF issued a press release on the Mexican cooperation efforts and it would seem even allowed reporters to accompany them on some of the visits. I don't think that this articles slant is quite what they were looking for though... I don't think there is anything outrageous here. This is how crime guns and straw purchases have been investigated for a very long time.
Reading between the lines with a bit of insight into how these investigations work, I would guess it all went something like this;
Mexican officials in 2008 asked federal agents to trace the origins of more than 7,500 firearms recovered at crime scenes in Mexico. Most of them were traced back to Texas, California and Arizona.
So they start at the shops with the highest number of crime guns that trace back to them. They pull the paperwork for the crime guns & assign those for followup visits.
Now the straw purchase investigations. For starters, sometimes the shop itself is implicated or outright involved in straw purchase schemes. So, the agents scrutinise all of the records, 4473s, bound-book etc. looking for suspicious activity. What does "suspicious activity" look like? Well, what would you look for in those records? What about several purchases of the same make and model firearm? How about a repeat customer who buys 4 9mm pistols of the same make and model every 2 weeks for a 3 month period. Hell, anyone who buys more than one HiPoint 9mm at the same time... :) What about multiple customers with the same address listed? Or, ID/Drivers license #s, addresses that don't check out? Maybe just plain old BS sounding names. You get the point. If I gave you a gun/pawn shops records and said show me the stuff that smells funny you know what you would look for.
So now what to do? Well you have to take that list of suspected BS you compiled and go knock on those doors. Find out if these people even exist. If they do, do they still have the 12 HiPoints they purchased last year? Do they look like a duck, walk like a duck, quack like a duck?
No where in the article does it say that they are going "Door to Door" asking about your guns. It does say: (emphasis is mine)
Among other things, the agents are combing neighborhoods and asking people about suspicious purchases as well as seeking explanations as to how their guns ended up used in murders, kidnappings and other crimes in Mexico.
I think that the author wants you to believe they are going "Door to Door" but I think that the "suspicious purchases" and "used in murders, kidnappings and other crimes" makes it plain that they are working off a list compiled in these efforts:
... Mexican officials in 2008 asked federal agents to trace the origins of more than 7,500 firearms recovered at crime scenes in Mexico ... Agents instead review firearms dealers’ records in person ...
As for the pastor. Maybe the guy bought 2 Hi Point 9mm pistols on the same day and had shody looking 4473. They didn't kick in his door- they just asked him about his purchase. Big deal...
The cop. It says "he bought a few military-style rifles". So, maybe he bought 3-5 Bushmasters in one day. Suppose they took a list of multiple purchases of same make/model firearms in a short period and had CBP run it against border crossings. Bought 4 Bushmasters and went to Mexico the next day? You get a visit. Or, maybe they were on the Crime Gun list...
Anyhow, I don't see anything nefarious here. Just basic police work.
QuietShootr
07-01-09, 17:10
I'll bite.
I don't like it at all. Yes, I understand that an active criminal element likes our toys, too, and they do bad things with them. But how much of my God-given, inalienable rights must I compromise in order to "be safe". I think Benjamin Franklin was on target when he stated, (loose paraphrase) "those who give up essential liberties for promises of security get & deserve neither."
Kinda kidding here: the guns are leaving the USA which should make the Feds happy. :cool: I know, I know... bad humor.
Serious again: It's a matter of time before someone will claim "legal precedent" when this or the next Administration declares you/me/us "terrorists" as Janet Reno did for those who love the Constitution, gun rights, etc., and begins to act on it. I feel it's always better to be safe than sorry. No pun intended. Keep gov't on a short leash and feed it with a long handle spoon.
Nope, don't like it at all. Get a warrant.
And I don't give a shit if that makes their jobs harder. Maintaining the Constitution is a LOT more important than making their jobs easier.
Here's my story...
I lived in Texas from about late 2005 until late 2008, in Del Rio. While I was there I bought several receivers, AR and AK, plus an FN PS90, and some assorted other things. Anyhow, I moved in November 2008 because the Air Force told me it was time to go. Anyhow, I got a call a couple weeks ago from an ATF agent in Del Rio asking to see the receivers and PS90. They had apparently driven by my house (for sale or rent if interested in living on Lake Amistad!) and called several times to a dead line. They somehow got my number in Delaware and called. They mostly wanted to know what I did with the receivers and the status of the PS90 which they referenced as a FN 57. I have either built the receivers or have them in my safe waiting to be built. I mentioned that I sold some of the ARs and the PS90. The agent reminded me that I need to realize I cannot buy guns with the intention of selling them at a profit later without a license. Lucky for me I had the guns a few years and I never came close to making a profit. So, the agent said they might send a local agent out to look at my guns now located in Delaware.
I called the dealer I used to transfer all the stuff and he said the ATF has been to all the local dealers four or five times in the last couple months. He said the agents were from all over the country and mentioned Arkansas and New York specifically. Has anyone heard about this lately? Also, what legal things should I worry about if they want to come take a look at my stuff?
Here are my thoughts as of now...
A) It does not appear that this is specifically targeted at me. It looks to be a part of the initiative to stop the flow of guns to Mexico. Apparently they started with the FFLs right smack on the border.
B) Three of the four ATF agents who reviewed my dealer's bound book could have cared less. The fourth agent was worked up about the receivers I bought (5 over a three year period) and an FN PS90. She asked what I was doing with them and what kind of person I was. My dealer who is a retired Border Patrol agent and a current county sheriff's deputy said I was a good person and it wasn't really his business what I did with them after he transferred them.
C) The agent was going to talk to her supervisor and see what he says. It may effectively die there.
D) I might speak to a lawyer just to cover myself if I get any follow up phone calls. I might also call the NRA and see what they've heard about these types of requests recently.
Thanks,
Spooky
spooky- definately call a lawyer, and have him geared up just in case.
and i would definately, absolutely, and under NO EXCEPTION, tell ANY LEO, local or federal, that you will not be answering any more questions and that you will not be opening any doors for them.
don't be that one guy who somehow gets his anus turned inside out, man.
where's dbrowne1 at? he'll tell ya
I would choose to stand on my 4th & 5th Amendment rights.
Here's my story...
Here are my thoughts as of now...
A) It does not appear that this is specifically targeted at me. It looks to be a part of the initiative to stop the flow of guns to Mexico. Apparently they started with the FFLs right smack on the border.
B) Three of the four ATF agents who reviewed my dealer's bound book could have cared less. The fourth agent was worked up about the receivers I bought (5 over a three year period) and an FN PS90. She asked what I was doing with them and what kind of person I was. My dealer who is a retired Border Patrol agent and a current county sheriff's deputy said I was a good person and it wasn't really his business what I did with them after he transferred them.
C) The agent was going to talk to her supervisor and see what he says. It may effectively die there.
D) I might speak to a lawyer just to cover myself if I get any follow up phone calls. I might also call the NRA and see what they've heard about these types of requests recently.
Thanks,
Spooky
Spooky, this isn't legal advice, but as a LEO, I wouldn't sweat it. That particular agent sounds over-eager (IE-ROOKIE!) and will hopefully be set straight by a supervisor. I seriously doubt that they would send a Delaware agent out to interview you over a few AR receivers. They don't have the man power. If I was to bet on it, I'd bet that you never hear another thing about it again.
If they do happen to contact you, be honest. You've done nothing wrong by selling a few firearms. I wouldn't bother contacting an attorney unless you're just really worried about it.
Spooky, this isn't legal advice, but as a LEO, I wouldn't sweat it. That particular agent sounds over-eager (IE-ROOKIE!) and will hopefully be set straight by a supervisor. I seriously doubt that they would send a Delaware agent out to interview you over a few AR receivers. They don't have the man power. If I was to bet on it, I'd bet that you never hear another thing about it again.
If they do happen to contact you, be honest. You've done nothing wrong by selling a few firearms. I wouldn't bother contacting an attorney unless you're just really worried about it.
That's really what I've been thinking. From talking to my FFL he said 3 of the 4 agents could have cared less. The questions from the one agent seemed to be from a person new to the world of firearms - she had no idea why someone would want to build their own guns.
Like I said, it has been a few weeks and I haven't heard anything. If they follow up I have all the guns I bought down there except for the PS90 and I have a copy of the FFL I sent that one too plus the EZ Check verification.
I will be honest - again I have nothing to hide. I just get concerned about them creating something out of nothing. I guess I can go back to my SERE training...
Spooky
That's really what I've been thinking. From talking to my FFL he said 3 of the 4 agents could have cared less. The questions from the one agent seemed to be from a person new to the world of firearms - she had no idea why someone would want to build their own guns.
Then she needs to either find a different line of work, or start learning about the industry in which she works REAL quick. It is absolutely unacceptable for the ATF, or any government agency, to be shaking people down when they don't even understand the basic technical aspects of the products they're dealing with.
Then she needs to either find a different line of work, or start learning about the industry in which she works REAL quick. It is absolutely unacceptable for the ATF, or any government agency, to be shaking people down when they don't even understand the basic technical aspects of the products they're dealing with.
Idealist!!!;)
Idealist!!!;)
I know. Expecting a gun cop to actually know something about guns. What am I thinking.
Business_Casual
07-02-09, 09:39
They are gun cops? I thought they were tax collectors/revenue agents.
M_P
Had my 1st ATF audit a couple days ago. One was a new guy right out of the army and the other gal I had been working with for the past couple of years. They were very respectful of my private safe and just took a glance when they had every right to disect it....I knew this going in and had nothing to hide but they did gain some respect. They also helped me out with some pointers on my paperwork & Overall, a productive meeting & made a new friend.
Anyway, we spent most of our time discussing the problems these straw purchases are causing all of us. Academy had so many straws down this way they pulled all AR's off the shelves!! Although I understand this decision, I told my ATF friends it was chicken chit on Academy's part to punish the law abiding buyer out of principal and not train their employees better.
They also stated that many of the straw arrests come from info from the bystandard in the store picking up on the signs and calling in and giving plates!! I thought this was the nutz. We're all tied up in the guns going to mexico & from Houston south, there are probably more of these knock-knocks than the rest of the country.
A customer and friend called just yesteray saying one of his buddies got a visit. My advice is be polite, help them out if you just made a recent purchase and they ask to see those certain guns tied to that case.....If they request more info. like 'how many guns' and 'can I see your collection', then politly tell them it's non of their business and let's stay focused on your case.
My opinion is an attitude may just produce a warrant....if that's what you want, then strut it up.
My opinion is an attitude may just produce a warrant....if that's what you want, then strut it up.
I don't have a blind hatred for the ATF, and in fact most of the people there who I've dealt with have been very polite.
That said, I don't care how polite you are if you come asking to look around my house or poke your nose into my safe. You're not doing it and unless you lie under oath, you will never have enough to get a warrant. Hypothetically speaking, if an ATF agent looked through records at a dealer and saw purchases by me and came knocking, what exactly is it that he thinks I've done? I bought guns and there is an approval number on there that says I passed the NICS check. Unless the gun was recovered someplace else and was involved in a crime, I'm not participating in their witchhunts.
I don't have a blind hatred for the ATF, and in fact most of the people there who I've dealt with have been very polite.
That said, I don't care how polite you are if you come asking to look around my house or poke your nose into my safe. You're not doing it and unless you lie under oath, you will never have enough to get a warrant. Hypothetically speaking, if an ATF agent looked through records at a dealer and saw purchases by me and came knocking, what exactly is it that he thinks I've done? I bought guns and there is an approval number on there that says I passed the NICS check. Unless the gun was recovered someplace else and was involved in a crime, I'm not participating in their witchhunts.
I have no problem with that amigo....it's all up to the individual. I guess I'm just a little more lax about it as I do not see a witch hunt attitude unless they drift outside their case & keeping an eye on the straws.
I used to bird hunt with a buddy who worked for ATF before he transfered up to Alaska. He was on the enforcement side and had good stories about going after the bad guys / undercover stuff that was exciting to say the least. Living on the border is never boring. I view them along with other leo's and some of them have a dangerous job. Have not met one yet that was not pro 2nd ammnd and wanted to take away the good guys guns......just like all areas of leo, I'm sure there are a handfull of bad apples.
I just don't like threads that turn into atf or any leo trashing parties and lumping them all together.
I got a visit of this type about 6 weeks ago. Two agents rolled up in front of my house and approached me while I was in my driveway. They were asking about a gun I purchased back in Feb. The one I was talking with was pretty cool, he showed me the sheet with all my 4473 info on it as well as the info of two other people. I recognized the serial number as mine.
One of the agents asked if I still had the gun, and if so may he see it? I said sure, it is right here, stepped inside, dropped the mag and locked slide back and showed it to him. He looked at the SN, confirmed it matched and commented on how he liked the TLR-1 I had on it. They never asked about any other guns or how many or anything like that. They did ask me if I knew the other two guys on their sheet or if I remember them, I didn't and said as much. The guy I spoke with (one guy was silent almost the entire time) was cool and respectful.
I identified myself as working for a police department and talked to them for a bit. These guys were pulled from somewhere in the northeast, MA or RI I think and sent down to TX 'on orders from Obama' to look for people doing straw purchases. They didn't say if they got my info from a 4473 or the shops logbook. What they said they got their interest from was apparently the other two guys had the same hometown as I do (also from the NE) and someone, somewhere thought it was strange that 3 guys all from the same place were in south TX buying the same gun at about the same time.
I have mixed feelings about the encounter. On one hand, I can see the intrusion and the giving up of freedoms by not telling them to FOAD and come back with a warrant. I have to admit, I am not entirely comfortable with federales showing up at my house in the afternoon asking to see my legally bought guns.
On the other hand, isn't this what we (the gun community) have been asking for? No new laws, enforce the ones we have? And really, how exactly are they supposed to enforce straw buying laws in any meaningful way other then these type of investigations?
Business_Casual
07-03-09, 07:52
On the other hand, isn't this what we (the gun community) have been asking for? No new laws, enforce the ones we have? And really, how exactly are they supposed to enforce straw buying laws in any meaningful way other then these type of investigations?
Which law is that exactly?
M_P
I got a visit of this type about 6 weeks ago. Two agents rolled up in front of my house and approached me while I was in my driveway.
This seems to be a common tactic used by federal LE to "interview" people, and this intrusive tactic alone would make me tell them to piss off. Do not surprise me after hours at my own home like I am a criminal who you have come to serve a warrant on. If all you want to know is "do I still have X gun," pick up the phone during normal hours or send me a letter.
My father worked for the .gov and I remember when I was a teenager some of his co-workers were accused of fraud. Some investigators from the IG's office from the group he worked for staked him out and stopped him, just like you describe, when he went for his regular evening walk. They were very polite with their words but their conduct was beyond rude. They clearly knew his regular personal schedule and made clear he was not suspected of anything but they wanted to talk to him about these other folks.
Do they not give these people phones? Or normal business hours? Or lessons in being tactful with people who aren't suspects but have valuable information? I have to talk to witnesses and even "bad" people all the time, and I would never dream of doing something so boldly obnoxious. I understand they have "reasons" for doing it this way - not giving people time to think about their story, not giving somebody time to get the gun back, not showing up at work around subjects of the investigation, etc. - but if you do it that way with me, you will buy yourself a big helping of "**** off and I'm not talking to you."
but if you do it that way with me, you will buy yourself a big helping of "**** off and I'm not talking to you."
Amen.
Which law is that exactly?
M_P
18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(1)(A) (making a false statement to a federal firearms licensee)
On top of that the straw man opens themselves up to the potential to buy some Fed Conspiracy charges and various sentence enhancers.
You have actually read a 4473 at least once before signing it right... ;)
Business_Casual
07-03-09, 14:04
Which one of the buyers that they interviewed was a straw purchaser?
M_P
The police can come to your door and ask to search any time, for any reason.
Don't want them to? Say no. The article you referenced clearly stated they didn't have warrants. So the people whose homes they're searching are consenting.
Yep.
For those not aware, when you purchase two or more handguns in a 5 days period, the FFL is REQUIRED to fax the ATF a form all about you (with in 24hrs). :eek:
So this is how the ATF knew something was odd and came a callin.
One other thing to be aware of. With the ATF ate up with multiple gun sales, when they do an audit on a dealer, I would NOT put it past them to write down the name of the buyer (from the dealers log book) that has multiple sales (5 or more).
In fact, the ATF called me recently about me buying 10 AR's from another FFL Dealer! :rolleyes:
As an FFL dealer, my recommendation to you all is:
1. Do NOT buy more than one HG in a week.
2. If you have a lot of guns transferred, use several different FFL dealers.
C4
wawawait... these guys are doing to peoples houses based SOLEY on their purchases?
They have been doing this for a LOOOOOONG TIME (FYI).
C4
While talking to the ATF is fun an all. The REAL fun is when the black Suburbans roll in and a couple ICE officers get out to talk to you about ITAR violations. ;)
C4
I am kinda torn on this issue.
Yes there is a need to crack down on illegal weapon sales in this country.
In fact if the laws which have been on the books since 1968 regarding firearms were actually enforced...this country probably wouldn't be in so much turmoil over Gun Control as it is today.
But, if I lived along the border and had the BATFE show up at my house demanding to see my legally owned firearms..then I would see it as a violation of my privacy.
If the Goverment is going to be doing these knock and looks...they better be able to show probable cause.
While talking to the ATF is fun an all. The REAL fun is when the black Suburbans roll in and a couple ICE officers get out to talk to you about ITAR violations. ;)
C4
i imagine a dealer that ships ANYTHING- ITAR or not- to the sandbox is likely to get this visit, eh?
i imagine a dealer that ships ANYTHING- ITAR or not- to the sandbox is likely to get this visit, eh?
No, I don't think so. Dealers that break ITAR regs a lot will though.
The thing that attracts their attention the most is Tritium powered optics.
C4
I worked at a Gun Store which was broken into and 103 firearms were stolen. No black suburbans pulled up but there was a blacked out Yukon with 3-BATFE officers that pulled and audited our form 4473's and gun log books.
It turned out to be a gang haul with several of the members coming from St. Louis and one local boy who cased the store.
We had a 54 rifles, pistols and shotguns found in one batch buried on a farm in Laclede Co Missouri. And one Colt H-Bar which was returned after a UCO purchased it during a sting operation in St. Louis. I worked there for some 4-years after the break in and the Blacked out Yukon came back at least four times doing complete audits each time. They are no fun at all even when you have nothing to hide.
Well I don't see the big deal over getting all hot about them coming up to you in the driveway. I mean, if they are going to do this type of questioning, how else are they supposed to do it? Parachute in?
The vibe I got from the agents I spoke with was that they knew they were chasing ghosts, but they still had to do what they were told. I'm sure they would have rather been back in RI or wherever with their wives and kids.
Well I don't see the big deal over getting all hot about them coming up to you in the driveway. I mean, if they are going to do this type of questioning, how else are they supposed to do it? Parachute in?
How about calling me or sending me a letter? You know, letting me know they want to come by like a normal, decent human being?
The vibe I got from the agents I spoke with was that they knew they were chasing ghosts, but they still had to do what they were told. I'm sure they would have rather been back in RI or wherever with their wives and kids.
Then more people need to tell them to pound sand so that they can communicate that up the chain to whomever is sending them on these wild goose hunts.
I worked at a Gun Store which was broken into and 103 firearms were stolen. No black suburbans pulled up but there was a blacked out Yukon with 3-BATFE officers that pulled and audited our form 4473's and gun log books.
It turned out to be a gang haul with several of the members coming from St. Louis and one local boy who cased the store.
We had a 54 rifles, pistols and shotguns found in one batch buried on a farm in Laclede Co Missouri. And one Colt H-Bar which was returned after a UCO purchased it during a sting operation in St. Louis. I worked there for some 4-years after the break in and the Blacked out Yukon came back at least four times doing complete audits each time. They are no fun at all even when you have nothing to hide.
The gun store signed up for that and agreed to it by getting a FFL. The rest of us didn't.
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