View Full Version : Why'd you buy it?
I'm interested to hear short stories of why people chose to buy lesser-quality weapons- bush, DPMS, oly, RRA, etc..
there's a lot of people come around and post something to the effect of "i bought this DPMS last month, signed up here, and learned that it's not the greatest of choices, so i'm _________ (getting rid of it, fixing it up, etc)..."
this isn't at all a ripfest on you or your weapon. i'm just interested to know WHY you chose the weapon that you did, before you knew- what research did you do? how available was information? did you have problems finding information? did you get recommendations from people? what web-sources did you investigate? books that you read? etc.
back when i first started out in the AR world, information was nill. there were a few books out, but they focused on function, shooting, cleaning, stripping, etc- there wasn't really anything out with great technical information. furthermore, there wasn't 1/20th of the selection to chose from- more often than not, if you couldn't afford/could find colt parts, you were left with no-name gunshow parts or Quality Parts Inc (bushmaster) parts- which were actually, next to colt, the only manufacturer with a name that put any degree of quality control into their processes. My first build was a ban-compliant attempt at a carbine, and it was about 50% bushmaster, with a few colt parts and the rest were unknown origin. if i were to have purchased a complete gun, it would have been an Armalite or Bushmaster, I'm sure. fortunately, i did get a little inside information from a gunsmith i'd met at a gun show, and assembled something pretty decent. i'm just curious as to how much has changed, what the word is on the streetz, etc. so share your story, por favor.
Some people only start to get on the forums after they buy their lesser AR. Others never get on the forums before or after buying, and don't do any research prior to buying. Some don't care. For example, my brother in law has one AR (a 20" A2 HBAR heavy as all get out musket) and really wants an M4 type because he loved my old LMT. HE does not cruise M4C or any other forum. He was looking on Guns America and Gun Broker and was telling me how he found Bushmaster M4s for whatever price they were (I want to say around a $1K). I am trying to get him to buy one of the new DD XVs from Grant had I not told him that I wouldn't be buying a Bushmaster at that kind of price, he probably would have just done it a month or so ago. Now, if I can just get him to make the right decision and give Grant the $$ for the DD.
RogerinTPA
07-01-09, 18:56
#1 would be mostly ignorance. Indifference. MOST GUN FORUMS!:eek: Most think they are all the same. Lying gun store owners, misinformed friends, relatives, any number of bad sources to take you in the wrong direction. Take your pic.
abolutely it's ignorance- otherwise it wouldnt have happened. i'm not expecting many "i knew it was a bad choice, but went with it anyway." i'm really interested in what the process was, how available information was, what other people had said to them/what recommendations had been made and why...
back in the day, i got ALL my information from gunshops and gunshows. there was an internet, but it didn't have gun forums or other databases full of technical info. you could "chat" on AOL or order a book on Amazon.com, but that was all the internet was good for back then.
this is really just for my own curiosity. I don't go to gun shows but once a year to stock up on ammo, and i don't go into gun-shops unless i have a specific handgun i want to hold in real life. so i have no clue what information is available at ground-level these days, or what the current perpetuating myths are, etc, and it would be interesting to hear. furthermore, hearing the reasonings of people who then, later, did get educated, would be helpful in creating effective arguments to others considering purchasing some POS gun.
I must be the exception. Thanks to you, rob_s, Swatcop1911, and others, I educated myself, and bought a Colt 6933. Still waiting on the stamp. That's a whole other issue for the NFA forum. There are a few of us nOObies that did our research. Hell, I learn every day by reading and paying attention. M4 posters(the majority) are great.
Just like to say I couldn't be more happy with the "elite" on the site that are very willing to answer questions and help out the the FNG. If more people did research, we wouldn't have so many stupid statements, dumb questions, and posters saying why isn't my DPMS(and others)(or, my DPMS is as good as) as good as a Colt.
Mr.Goodtimes
07-01-09, 19:21
i really like my mutt gun.
CMMG lower, spikes tactical upper.
its ran 100% from day one.
In response to the "gun shop information" comment: I am much more familiar with the AK platform and knew little about the AR. When I decided to get one, I asked for advice from a trusted knowledgeable source. I had a budget and asked what could I get? He told me to increase my budget and go with either a Colt, or a Noveske. I was looking for a specific very basic set up and the Colt 6920 or Noveske N4 light was going to fit the bill. When I picked up the Noveske from my local FFL/gunshop, the owner asked me "Why'd you get this instead of a RRA?" Which he had on the shelves, I said: "I was advised that this is a quality rifle and GTG out of the box." The store owner asked what I paid, i told him...it was $200 more than the RRA he had on the shelves, he told me.. "You just got taken for $200 bucks, RRA is as good as they come, this is no better, maybe not even as good......it's your money." and walked off. There is a lot of misinformation out there. I'm not doubting the quality of other makes, as I have not owned any of them. I respect the information available from this site and have tried to learn from it.
I'm interested to hear short stories of why people chose to buy lesser-quality weapons- bush, DPMS, oly, RRA, etc..
My first rifle is an RRA 16" middy upper on a Superior Arms lower with an Anvil Arms LPK a Magpul MIAD, and an A1 stock. The complete upper and lower receivers were all part of a group buy through another website; price-wise, they were and still are a great deal. The LPK was because it was available, and I didn't want DPMS parts (I didn't trust them, though I couldn't tell you why). I've learned a lot about the nuts and bolts functioning of the AR in the year since I stepped into the group buy to get those parts. I don't believe my rifle is crap, far from it, but I could certainly have done better for not much more money. At the time, I was less informed about what was better, why, and where I could get it.
Pat Rogers told me that "experience is what you get when you don't get what you want." I plan on using this rifle as a learning experience to get intimately familiar with the AR, and using that experience to make more informed future decisions about ARs.
-B
The_War_Wagon
07-01-09, 19:39
I bought a Doublestar in '06, just to have something SHAPED like an AR, and to re-aquaint myself with the platform (which I hadn't owned since late '01 - I was on an FAL kick at the time... :rolleyes:).
Once I got familiar with how it handled again, I decided I wanted something better, and wanted to try the new piston AR as well. Got a POF-415 in '08, and now have an M&P15T to go along with it.
As prices keep dropping, I'm looking now at some of the other quality offerings out there (Charles Daly, Noveske, Colt - owned a pre-ban in the early '90's - DD, et.al.), as I think about a better DI gun, and move the M&P over to 'plinker' duty.
It's a continual process. :D
I almost fell into this trap before I found this site. I saw the chart on TOS, followed it here, and never went back. Many people see TOS first and there is enough info (most of it poor) to keep them busy until they make their purchase. The majority of the members there state the Colt is only a name you pay for, and that all other brands are GTG. They either ignore the facts, or state that things like CMV, M4 ramps, and other details are of no importance.
I think a few may purchase their first M4 for fun, but after seeing how much easier it is to shoot than their pistol or shotgun and reading up on 5.56 ballistics, they decide to use it for home defense. Once they get serious about this, they seek out a better carbine.
I am VERY glad that I did my homework before I bought. I built a BCM middie, post Obama for about $1075 and will never regret it. I know that I would have regretted buying the first carbine that I had in mind.
I am the new owner of a Bushmaster optics ready carbine. I most likely would not have purchased a Bushmaster if i had been a member of this site before my purchase. Most of my friends that are "gun people" said that Bushmasters are of pretty good quality. I also figured that because the price was on par with higher end rifles that the quality was there. Most of my information I obtained about Bushmaster was through the internet. I didnt do much in depth reading, just some general google searches and reading of some reviews. Again, I kinda wish I had discovered this website during my pre-purchase research. Am I upset that I bought a Bushmaster? No, not really. The reason I bought my carbine locally, (for a higher price than the net), was because my local gun store was willing to let me pay for it over time in small installments.(layaway) I know its kinda ghetto but, hey, its the only way I could afford the rifle, so I am happy with what I've got. I also enjoy tinkering and upgrading my weapons, so I'm not too bummed that I will need to replace some components to put it on par with some of the higher quality rifles.
plain and simple. I had handguns already and wanted a rifle/carbine for HD.
Although I used the internet for info on many things, guns were not one of
them.
My main source of information on AR15's was of course gun magazines:(. I would
buy every issue of every gun/rifle mag I could find.
Hence, my first 2 M4 purchases were a post-ban Bushmaster superlight, and
later a RRA Entry Tactical. I mean according to the magazine reviews they were
simply badass, heck they were used by the DEA, and military according to the
rags.
I found M4 carbine about 2 months after the RRA purchase :mad:. This sight was also a revelation about the training that is available out there. Until M4carbine no one I spoke with could tell me where I could find training beyond your typical CCW
class.
Since finding M4C I have sold the Bushmaster, purchased a CDDM4LE,and Colt6920. Ditched the Tasco red dot that went down after about 400rnds and purchased a Comp M3 and CompML2. I've kept the RRA since it consistently shoots sub-moa with a Millet DMS-1 scope. I've taken 1 carbine course and 2 handgun courses. Through the storehouse of knowledge here I've learned things about the AR platform and performed upgrades that I thought would've required a
gunsmith. Rob's input helped me unf#%!k my gear, F2S,Grant, GotM4, and
countless others here,their knowledge has been a godsend.
Of course, the only rough side is the close to $4000 spent at G+R, Bravo etc,:eek:
Thank you all.
MarshallDodge
07-01-09, 20:42
My Dad bought our first AR in 1985ish. We looked at Colts-$500 and someone recommended a Sendra at $250. They were a local company that put together AR's out of some of their stuff and who knows what else. They built a lot of full auto stuff too. This one was an A1 style and always shot great but we probably only put 1000 rounds through it in the 10 years we owned it. He got bored with it and gave it to me.
I wish I kept it but I wanted a varminter so I sold it. The 20" varminter was custom built on an Eagle receiver and upper. I have put quite a few rounds through it (400 in one day on a pdog hunt) with the only issue being a free floated handguard that came loose. I had a couple friends that had the Colt target version and it couldn't shoot nearly as well so it made me a little skeptical about Colt's quality.
My carbine that I have today is not a tier 1 gun and I trust it. It probably doesn't get shot nearly enough to create the issues that others have seen but I am good about maintaining it and it has returned the favor. Most of my experience with carbines has been at the shooting range. Between that and a couple small classes, I have mostly seen hiccups with Olympic and DPMS.
My latest purchase was a BCM mid-length upper and was purely based off of the high recommendations of this board. I hope you guys are right. :D
My latest purchase was a BCM mid-length upper and was purely based off of the high recommendations of this board. I hope you guys are right. :D
it's a numbers game, just like baseball... and BCMs currently batting about 990.
I bought my first AR in 1990, I was 19. It was an Olympic Arms.
The price was right, I ordered a lower and an upper from them directly to the shop I worked at at the time.
We didn't know any better back then....it was Colt, Olympic, or Quality Parts (Bushmaster).
The Oly would lock up and give me a failure to extract after about 60 or 80 rounds. I sent it back to Oly, they "fixed it", and sent it back. Next trip to the range, I got another stuck case after 80 rounds.
To Oly's credit, they took it back and refunded my money.
I took the money and did what I should have done the first time....a Colt R6520, the predecessor of the LE6520.
From then on, it's been Colts....either SP-1 rifles and carbines, or AR15A2's, etc.
RogerinTPA
07-01-09, 20:54
Back in the day, i got ALL my information from gunshops and gunshows. there was an internet, but it didn't have gun forums or other databases full of technical info. you could "chat" on AOL or order a book on Amazon.com, but that was all the internet was good for back then.
this is really just for my own curiosity. I don't go to gun shows but once a year to stock up on ammo, and i don't go into gun-shops unless i have a specific handgun i want to hold in real life. so i have no clue what information is available at ground-level these days, or what the current perpetuating myths are, etc, and it would be interesting to hear. furthermore, hearing the reasonings of people who then, later, did get educated, would be helpful in creating effective arguments to others considering purchasing some POS gun.
I here you. After being in the Army for quite a while, All I knew was Colt. My first AR was a neutered post band 20" A2 Sporter. I almost followed up with an Bushie M-4 type rifle after the AWB expired, thinking that they were all the same. Back then, most folks claimed it was ABC (Armelite/Bushmaster/Colt), in that order. TOS was the only forum around so most folks took them as the Gosple to ARs. :rolleyes: It's very easy for the lay person, including Military and LEOs, to make the same assumption. No disrespect for those who made an uninformed purchase at all. That's why we have lots of threads here to get those weapons up to speed and reliable.;)
I bought a DPMS at the gun show. I knew it wasnt the top of the line of all carbines, and I was not misinformed by ignorant gunshop owners. Sometimes you just have to reach down into your pocket and ask yourself what you can afford. It makes me laugh sometimes. I put up a thread about DPMS and why people on here think that they are basically scrap metal. Well if that wasn't like throwin a chicken in the lions den. Everyone on here thinks if you don't have a Colt, Armalite, CD etc... then piss on you and your pathetic excuse for a rifle. Well if these guys really upheld their top notch or nothin philosophy, then they should all be driving the most expensive, or "highest quality" cars. But there is a good chance that they dont. And whatever difference in quality there may be, you never hear about first hand, I was there and saw it happen, accounts of a less expensive rifle failing where a Colt did not. Yall need to quit being pricks about shit like this, and realize that we are all on the same team here. We all have a common interest. And please do not assume that someone who owns a less expensive rifle is ignorant. They just cannot justify spending all the extra money for a weapon that is so marginally different from the one that costs half the price. And no matter what you do, there will always be a weapon that is more accurate, more reliable, lighter, more powerful or whatever you look for in a gun, than your top end AR-15. It all costs money. Ask me why I didn't buy a Colt, and Ill ask you why you didn't buy a_________.
Mark.
I bought my M&P15x during the height of the frenzy and the Colts were out of my financial reach. I payed way to much for my Smith which has been flawless for its 682 rounds fired so far.
After joining this forum and reading about the real Tier 1 rifles I now have the addiction for that Colt, Noveske, LMT, or DD. My next purchase will be on of those and I will use this Smith to learn my iron sights and get a lot of practice time in.
I bought a DPMS at the gun show. I knew it wasnt the top of the line of all carbines, and I was not misinformed by ignorant gunshop owners. Sometimes you just have to reach down into your pocket and ask yourself what you can afford. It makes me laugh sometimes. I put up a thread about DPMS and why people on here think that they are basically scrap metal. Well if that wasn't like throwin a chicken in the lions den. Everyone on here thinks if you don't have a Colt, Armalite, CD etc... then piss on you and your pathetic excuse for a rifle. Well if these guys really upheld their top notch or nothin philosophy, then they should all be driving the most expensive, or "highest quality" cars. But there is a good chance that they dont. And whatever difference in quality there may be, you never hear about first hand, I was there and saw it happen, accounts of a less expensive rifle failing where a Colt did not. Yall need to quit being pricks about shit like this, and realize that we are all on the same team here. We all have a common interest. And please do not assume that someone who owns a less expensive rifle is ignorant. They just cannot justify spending all the extra money for a weapon that is so marginally different from the one that costs half the price. And no matter what you do, there will always be a weapon that is more accurate, more reliable, lighter, more powerful or whatever you look for in a gun, than your top end AR-15. It all costs money. Ask me why I didn't buy a Colt, and Ill ask you why you didn't buy a_________.
Mark.
you've made a couple of valid points- but, as so many have tried before, comparing guns to cars doesn't really work. if a car had reliability issues that could get a person killed, it would be pulled off the market really fast... DPMS, as far as i know, has yet to recall all their rifles. furthermore, there's nobody on earth who can't afford a Colt, but can afford a DPMS. we're talking about a difference of a couple hundred bucks- not tens, dozens, or hundreds of thousands of dollars, such as with cars. ARs, while expensive, are not SO expensive that there's ever a reason not to get a good quality gun- and that's the whole point!
I here you. After being in the Army for quite a while, All I knew was Colt. My first AR was a neutered post band 20" A2 Sporter. I almost followed up with an Bushie M-4 type rifle after the AWB expired, thinking that they were all the same. Back then, most folks claimed it was ABC (Armelite/Bushmaster/Colt), in that order. TOS was the only forum around so most folks took them as the Gosple to ARs. :rolleyes: It's very easy for the lay person, including Military and LEOs, to make the same assumption. No disrespect for those who made an uninformed purchase at all. That's why we have lots of threads here to get those weapons up to speed and reliable.;)
not only was Colt the only AR I had any experience with, having been in the Army myself when I was starting to build, but i fell to the common military myth about "lowest bidders," and so forth. my m16a2 in OSUT was a pretty rotten piece of shit, as were many others around me. Once I got a taste of Real Army, and was issued a brand new m16a4, i just attributed it's strong performance to luck and the fact that it was brand new. what i didn't take into account was the fact that the weapons they issued us in OSUT were freaken 20 years old and were DX'd directly after our cycle. the next round of greenhorns all got brand new A4s...
so on my own dime, i was doing my best to stay AWAY from colt. what few colt parts i used in that first build, i used reluctantly.
I always get a kick when people use military experience as a badge of weapon knowledge... soldiers learn to shoot and kick ass, they learn nothing about the technical side.
QuietShootr
07-01-09, 21:23
you've made a couple of valid points- but, as so many have tried before, comparing guns to cars doesn't really work. if a car had reliability issues that could get a person killed, it would be pulled off the market really fast... DPMS, as far as i know, has yet to recall all their rifles. furthermore, there's nobody on earth who can't afford a Colt, but can afford a DPMS. we're talking about a difference of a couple hundred bucks- not tens, dozens, or hundreds of thousands of dollars, such as with cars. ARs, while expensive, are not SO expensive that there's ever a reason not to get a good quality gun- and that's the whole point!
quoted for truth.
you've made a couple of valid points- but, as so many have tried before, comparing guns to cars doesn't really work. if a car had reliability issues that could get a person killed, it would be pulled off the market really fast... DPMS, as far as i know, has yet to recall all their rifles. furthermore, there's nobody on earth who can't afford a Colt, but can afford a DPMS. we're talking about a difference of a couple hundred bucks- not tens, dozens, or hundreds of thousands of dollars, such as with cars. ARs, while expensive, are not SO expensive that there's ever a reason not to get a good quality gun- and that's the whole point!
I have yet to see any reliability issue with my gun that will get me killed. And no, it seems like the price difference between my DPMS and a Colt is not just a couple hundred bucks. Its more like $6-800. If I can buy two of my rifles for the same price as your one rifle, then that means that if the need ever arised, I would have an extra rifle to put on my fathers, brothers, or hell, even neighbors hands. Tell me that dont make sense. And yes, firearms can be compared to cars. The point of buying a new car is to have a nice quality mode of transportation right? Well lets go back in time and say I want to buy a new truck. I could buy this years model with a 4 bolt main-small block 350, or, for $500 less, I can buy last years model with the 2 bolt main-small block 350. Is there a marginal difference? yes. If I bought last years model will I ever notice it? no, not unless I drop the oil pan and look for it. Will it make my truck less reliable? no. If I have to haul a load of hogs to auction so that I can afford to buy a DPMS AR-15 to protect my family with, will the ol girl make it? Hell yes.
And I am the person who can afford a DPMS and not a Colt.
I actually snookered my own self into this rra due to the two stage trigger and Wilson bbls they advertised.....swapped it even for a brno .22 k-hornet on another forum. Have shot several rra's and they do well on paper and the trigger is good. Have also sold a few to recreational shooters and hunters and they are just tickled to death with my suggestion of the rra.
I was mad when I 1st saw the 'list', but I'm now very happy with the gun again, as I came back to earth and realized I have a way to go on the learnig curve and what I need / want from an AR. It's a blast to shoot and have not had any issues in the few hundred rounds she has consumed. It's not my primary home defensive gun anyway...have my benelli quail killer for that.
My next ar will be several notches up on the quality parts that go into it and I don't even know what they will be. Will probably let you guys help decide as I move forward.
I think for the casual shooter, they are ok with the low-man-on-totem pole-ar's. A very small % will come close to the cruel torture some of you put them though.....still, I want and will have a top notch sbr once I figure out what it is.
I bought my OLY because of lack of knowledge, didn't know alot about guns and was to stubborn to ask anyone. Thanks to sites like this and knowledgable people i have met i have since sold the POS and went with a LMT
mhanna91- Um, your reliability issue that gets you killed, you won't see it. We have seen your other posts and it's quite clear you are unable, or unwilling, to acknowledge fact and real world experience. At this point, no one really takes your comments seriously. You are simply one of the ignorant people that are on M4 but should be on TOS. Your "ideas" simply confirm what we already know about you.
I have yet to see any reliability issue with my gun that will get me killed. And no, it seems like the price difference between my DPMS and a Colt is not just a couple hundred bucks. Its more like $6-800. If I can buy two of my rifles for the same price as your one rifle, then that means that if the need ever arised, I would have an extra rifle to put on my fathers, brothers, or hell, even neighbors hands. Tell me that dont make sense. And yes, firearms can be compared to cars. The point of buying a new car is to have a nice quality mode of transportation right? Well lets go back in time and say I want to buy a new truck. I could buy this years model with a 4 bolt main-small block 350, or, for $500 less, I can buy last years model with the 2 bolt main-small block 350. Is there a marginal difference? yes. If I bought last years model will I ever notice it? no, not unless I drop the oil pan and look for it. Will it make my truck less reliable? no. If I have to haul a load of hogs to auction so that I can afford to buy a DPMS AR-15 to protect my family with, will the ol girl make it? Hell yes.
And I am the person who can afford a DPMS and not a Colt.
i had a great reply to this, but the fact of the matter is- this has nothing to do with this thread. we're not here to argue the merits of DPMS. and if it turns into that, i'll just request the mods shut it down.
mhanna91- Um, your reliability issue that gets you killed, you won't see it. We have seen your other posts and it's quite clear you are unable, or unwilling, to acknowledge fact and real world experience. At this point, no one really takes your comments seriously. You are simply one of the ignorant people that are on M4 but should be on TOS. Your "ideas" simply confirm what we already know about you.
What the hell is TOS? And I have not yet heard one bit of real world experience from any of the people on here. My real world experience is that guns are good. They are fun. They WILL protect me. It is also easy to spend WAYY too much money on guns. Thats a fact. Everyone talks about "superior" performance in the field, but like I said, not one person has come up with a first hand account. Do you have any? If you do lets hear it. Otherwise i'll just count you as just another person who just wants to put down on others for no reason at all. on the fn internet. thats pathetic. get a fn life dude.
Smuckatelli
07-01-09, 22:36
I always get a kick when people use military experience as a badge of weapon knowledge... soldiers learn to shoot and kick ass, they learn nothing about the technical side.
Brother....I'm one of those ones that give you a kick;)
My military experience drove me to buy only Colt. I need to add in that the experience spanned 21 years. I know the technical side very well....via illegal disassembly and a yearning for knowledge.
My first & second 'civilian' purchases were for Colts; 6721 & 6920. I'm one week away from trading my 6721 for a new RRA NMA4. My daughter has really taken to shooting and I need a 20" barrel for her trip to Camp Perry at the end of the month.
OK! I have a feeling that I am going to open a hell of a can of worms here..... First off, I am not saying that I do not like Colt here BUT from my experience, I can't see how the Colt is better than RRA or Bushmaster. AGAIN I said MY EXPERIENCE. I am a police officer and have been for 11 years. The only colts that I have come across are the ones that were given to us buy the US military. Remember, the military awards jobs to the LOWEST bidder. They are M-16 A-1's with 20" bbls. They are too long for indoor work and they rattle like hell between the lower and upper receivers. Although A-1's they were brand new in the box when they came. I own a Colt lower that I had on an FN upper receiver and although it worked without a hiccup, the trigger was less than crisp. All of the AR platforms other than the Colts are either Bushmasters or Stag in several different configurations. I have personally owned a Bushmaster carbine and used it frequently for about 13 years. I wasn't very into shooting the ARs because of my love for handgun shooting. I also purchased an Oly in .45 ACP so I could shoot at the local indoor range (pistol caliber only) in the winter months. I had never had a functioning problem with this particular gun due to the way I care for all of my guns but it did start falling apart so I found a buyer for that one as quickly as I could. I then began putting lower receivers together for friends and I began to enjoy building rifles no matter what brand the were. I purchased 5 stripped lowers for myself at the beginning of the Obama scare and they are 2 S&W m&ps, a Calvary Arms plastic lower (looked neat and couldn't beat the price) which I will sell after I build it for parts for another build and 2 RRA lowers. I have one of the M&P lowers built, after metal conditioning all of the parts, and I used a Double Star LPK which has the exact markings as the out of the box S&W M&Ps and Stag Arms rifles. I liked the trigger in this lower better than my Colt so I switched my main AR platform over to the S&W M&P. My set up that I use now when I am at work and go to classes is a S&W M&P lower with a FN upper on a Wilson 11.5 heavy chrome lined bbl with a PWS brake, a Colt bolt and carrier, Magpul MBUS, ASAP, MAID grip, MOE stock, trigger guard and rail covers. Surefire M73 quad rail with a Pentagon Duo Light and a Knights MFG vert grip. The weapon is topped with an Eotech 553. I guess by standards of most of the posts in here, this weapon is not up to par. I can say though, I am not a precision shooter but I hit paper every time moving or not, prone, sitting, kneeling or standing. I have not had a malfunction since I switched to P-mags in November and the gun is the smoothest out of all of my department's and friend's rifles. I guess what I am trying to say in SO many words is that I am not too up to date on all the best of the best parts out there (that's why I joined this forum) but I would bet my life on my rifle and it functions better than what my department issues.
Remember, the military awards jobs to the LOWEST bidder. They are M-16 A-1's with 20" bbls. They are too long for indoor work and they rattle like hell between the lower and upper receivers.
once again- this isn't a thread to argue whether or not these weapons are inferior- the standard of this board, and for our purposes, inferior weapons ARE inferior, and that's the basis we're going off. i do have to reply to this, however, to correct some misinformation:
the military does NOT award their weapons contracts to the lowest bidder. see my post above. i say again: the military does NOT award to lowest bidder. i don't have any links off hand on the selection process, but the military puts out a criteria to be filled, and cost does factor in- but the award is given to the manufacturer that produces the most reliable product within the specs given.
no perpetuation of that unfortunate myth.
Brother....I'm one of those ones that give you a kick;)
My military experience drove me to buy only Colt. I need to add in that the experience spanned 21 years. I know the technical side very well....via illegal disassembly and a yearning for knowledge.
My first & second 'civilian' purchases were for Colts; 6721 & 6920. I'm one week away from trading my 6721 for a new RRA NMA4. My daughter has really taken to shooting and I need a 20" barrel for her trip to Camp Perry at the end of the month.
you're not an exception, however- your knowledge of the platform came from your own pursuits. i don't know what branch or MOSs you served, but unless you were an armorer (and probably not even then), i'd bet $1 right here and now you have no one but yourself to blame for any information beyond how to shoot and clean. no?
militarymoron
07-02-09, 00:05
i bought a bushmaster because there wasn't any internet or forums at that time and they were still called quality parts company :)
my first two ARs were colts which i bought back in '85-86. i bought a bushy after that as it had flat top (v-match) configs available, and they advertised themselves as 'the best' in their catalogs. there weren't too many other choices. i actually still use the same bushy lowers which i bought back then.
Remember, the military awards jobs to the LOWEST bidder.
I don’t mean to initiate the shit-storm, but I am honestly so sick of hearing this that I could scream. I am prior service, and a Contracting Officer for the Fed. Gov. We award to the lowest bidder THAT MEETS THE REQUIREMENT! Even after that there are considerations such as past performance, support, R&D potential, etc. The contract award process for something as substantial as a weapons system takes years. If the DoD solicits to the open market for M4s next year, none of the current offerings from the likes of Bushmaster, RRA, DPMS, Armalite, etc. will even be considered. Their bids will be thrown out in the first stages of evaluation because they don’t even meet the minimum standard to be the lowest bidder.
On the other hand, if you have a carbine that has proven itself to you, then that may be all that matters. When most members of this site speak of reliable carbines, they mean a weapon that can digest 1500 - 2000 rounds in a one weekend course, with minimal maintenance and no major malfunctions. Ask yourself if you think your weapon could take that.
Most concerns have to do with quality control. If a company won’t use the bare minimum military standard (the one the “lowest bidder” performs) then how is the rest of their quality control? If you already have the gun, and it has performed well through a large enough round count to make a diagnosis, then you are probably good to go. Check out the stickies here, and perform a few reliability mods and it will probably serve you well. Just don’t expect to grab an untested weapon off the rack, that doesn’t meet a standard and have it be as reliable as a weapon that does. This is what a new buyer needs to be concerned about, even it they are not.
I chose my LMT (my first m4) because I knew my friend selling it to me knew guns very very very well. He was quite serious in purchasing a carbine that would reliably run, even if run hard, and his collection of arms is quality. He decided after owning it for 3 months and never shooting it that he wanted something with a little more knockdown power. He sold it to me for $200 less than he had in it, and allowed me to pay it off on 12moSAC terms. Admittedly I did almost no research except for seeing lmt's website and getting a few question answered by some people on xdtalk.com and TOS. A few dealers around town told me what I needed to know about that weapon too, and I jumped at the chance to own my first AR. After seeing the specs of the weapon I knew I wasn't getting a POS but a Tier 1 weapon. I wanted that in case of the opportunity to become a local LEO, and that process is nearing an answer from the chief hopefully this month! But aside from that, it's been a phenomenal gun. keep PMags in it, and no troubles. I'm definitely not regretting purchasing that gun from him. Is that enough for a $0.02 deposit?
i don't have any links off hand on the selection process,
It is a virtual library of manuals and regulations for even a simple award for something like coffee. Someone who has made an award for a weapons system, could easily make a novel out of the experience.
CryingWolf
07-02-09, 00:28
Discussions like this remind me of Harley vs Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki riders. I had a hard core Harley rider ask me one time how much I paid for my Suzuki Intruder with all the accessories I put on it. I told him $7,400 and another $1,500 in accessories. He then said something that blew me away "So for under $10,000 you have a bike that looks better then a $30,000 Harley." Now Harley riders can be a bit snobbish, as I have had more Harley riders look straight at me and not wave or nod then any other group this includes the crotch rocket riders. Sad fact is I think a few of them are mid-life crises dudes who watched a few episodes of American Chopper and though that's what I want to do, and now they think they are hard core bikers.
I bought a S&W M&P15A as my first AR15. I paid around $900 bucks for it, before Obama hit the fan. I was looking at RRA and though about putting my own together, when I came across the M&P15A. It was a good deal and I don't feel at all that this AR15 is any less then a Colt etc. If I had a do over I would still pick the M&P15A. I would love to own a Harley someday, just like I may own a Colt someday. I really don't see where I gain much with the Colt other then resale value. We'll I didn't buy my bike to sell it and I didn't my my AR to sell it.
I think the true value of a forum like this is not to tell people they should have bought a Colt. I think the true value comes from helping people make what they have work. Maybe there should be different sections for S&W owners or BM owners or even Oly owners?
I did once buy an Olympic Arms AR-15 that was missing some parts and had been the victim of bad garage gunsmith work. Basically, I wanted a cheap, beater rifle to tinker with (to improve my own skills) and something I wasn't going to worry about if I made a mistake. It was like giving a med student a cadaver before letting him near a live patient. -The rifle served its purpose. I learned from working on it and I sold it for about what I had in it.
It's a bit of a tangent but when I see the crescent "idiot scratch" on a high end 1911, I wish the owner had familiarized himself (made his mistakes) with a low end 1911 so he would have known how to avoid marring a good one.
Now Harley riders can be a bit snobbish, as I have had more Harley riders look straight at me and not wave or nod then any other group this includes the crotch rocket riders.
That is generally seen as a sign of respect.
I bought a S&W M&P15A as my first AR15. I paid around $900 bucks for it.
Most here would agree that you purchased a quality weapon at a good price.
I think the true value of a forum like this is not to tell people they should have bought a Colt. I think the true value comes from helping people make what they have work. Maybe there should be different sections for S&W owners or BM owners or even Oly owners?
People here help greatly, but they don't sugar coat it. Sometimes the best answer is to buy a better gun. As for your other suggestions, there is already another forum like that and people come here to avoid it.
Blankwaffe
07-02-09, 00:53
My first AR was a Eagle Arms kit gun I bought used from the local dealer at a good price.Up until that point I had no experience with the AR,much less what to look for.At the time no internet to read from either.Only semi auto weapon I had experience with was Remington 742's and Model 4's,Mini-14's,HK MP5's(as LEO),HK91,M14/M1A's and a tired old CMP IH M1 Grand.
Around 1999 I decided I wanted a new 20" AR for high power.Went to local shop once again and eye balled what was on the shelf in a NM platform...left with a Armalite M15A2NM and loved it.
So I'd have to say up until about 2007 my AR selection was based mainly on local availability and somewhat of a brand preference/experience as I have had several Armalites,to include AR10's since the first Eagle.Respectable service from the Armalite rifles as well as oustanding customer support caused me to build a somewhat brand preference in that regard.
In 2007 I discovered this forum and spent a few weeks of reading.After reading all I could here in my spare time I drank the LMT coolaid and upgraded all my remaining Armalite M15's with LMT parts(I call them LarMaliTes).Wanting my first carbine thanks to this site I went in search for LMT 16" upper and Defender lower assy.Later added a couple LMT Defender lowers,BCM upper's and recently landed in the Noveske pool and its nice and cool.Been down hill every since.
So yeah initially it was local availabilty,perty product and lack of knowledge in doing such shopping.In the end Ive kinda became part of the "tier one snobbery"....I still have my trusty old LarMaliTes.But my selection process has become much more tuned thanks to the fine folks and information provided here.
Thomas M-4
07-02-09, 01:24
When I first decided to get an AR-15 I looked locally everybody had DPMS, RRA and OLYMPIC I knew colt would probable be the best quality wise but at the time they were still using different size pins and that was a big turn off for me. I tried to ask locally and what ever the dealer had on his rack was the best:rolleyes: So I got fed up and did a lot of internet searching and finally found a copy of rob's chart ;) and thats how I found out about LMT.
Although I used the internet for info on many things, guns were not one of
them.
My main source of information on AR15's was of course gun magazines:(. I would
buy every issue of every gun/rifle mag I could find.
This.
hotwheelsjr
07-02-09, 02:26
I bought a DPMS at the gun show. I knew it wasnt the top of the line of all carbines, and I was not misinformed by ignorant gunshop owners. Sometimes you just have to reach down into your pocket and ask yourself what you can afford. It makes me laugh sometimes. I put up a thread about DPMS and why people on here think that they are basically scrap metal. Well if that wasn't like throwin a chicken in the lions den. Everyone on here thinks if you don't have a Colt, Armalite, CD etc... then piss on you and your pathetic excuse for a rifle. Well if these guys really upheld their top notch or nothin philosophy, then they should all be driving the most expensive, or "highest quality" cars. But there is a good chance that they dont. And whatever difference in quality there may be, you never hear about first hand, I was there and saw it happen, accounts of a less expensive rifle failing where a Colt did not. Yall need to quit being pricks about shit like this, and realize that we are all on the same team here. We all have a common interest. And please do not assume that someone who owns a less expensive rifle is ignorant. They just cannot justify spending all the extra money for a weapon that is so marginally different from the one that costs half the price. And no matter what you do, there will always be a weapon that is more accurate, more reliable, lighter, more powerful or whatever you look for in a gun, than your top end AR-15. It all costs money. Ask me why I didn't buy a Colt, and Ill ask you why you didn't buy a_________.
Mark.
Amen.
What the hell is TOS? And I have not yet heard one bit of real world experience from any of the people on here. My real world experience is that guns are good. They are fun. They WILL protect me. It is also easy to spend WAYY too much money on guns. Thats a fact. Everyone talks about "superior" performance in the field, but like I said, not one person has come up with a first hand account. Do you have any? If you do lets hear it. Otherwise i'll just count you as just another person who just wants to put down on others for no reason at all. on the fn internet. thats pathetic. get a fn life dude.
OK, My real world experience. My whole family shoots a lot. In the 80s my uncle bougth a Springfield Armory pistol that was "just as good as" a Colt for much less. It turned out (in our experience) that he was correct, and we have had many SA 1911s since then.
When ARs became popular another uncle said the same thing about Bushmaster and other brands. He was very wrong. I now get to spend my shooting sessions force-extracting mil-spec cassings (because they are chambered and gassed for .223 not 5.56) from their "just as good as" rifles, while my Dad's Colt and my BCM just keep chugging along. This is only a sample of about 20 rifles, but is enough for me.
And yes, firearms can be compared to cars.
.
In some instances, yes. Looking in the local classified right now, I see a Ford Tempo for $1650, and a Toyota Camry for $1900. Both with similar mileage. Sorry for all of you Ford folks, but from personal experience and a bit of research, I am confident that I could get about twice the mileage (we're talking 250K vs. 125K miles) out of the Camry. Does saving $250 to buy the Tempo on my initial purchase really make any sense? If I'm only going to drive it for a month, then maybe it does. If I need that car to get me to work for the next 4 years, then is most certainly does not.
bkb,
This is an interesting topic, but unfortunately and inevitably it will attract those who will do and say anything to defend their purchase. For all of the those who want to defend their particular choice, let me say this. Shooting alone is not the benchmark of the weapon. It is the overall construction and materials that are used to make the weapon. Will A Bushmaster shoot as good as a Colt? For the most part yes. Will a DPMS? Again, yes. The problems arise when you start to stress the weapon and put alot of rounds down range in a short period of time.
Another factor to consider is the actual use and carry of the weapon. Thus far in my personal experience here in the Middle East (I have been over quite a bit since 2004) Colt will hold up under stress, being banged around and shot better than most others. I keep reading "I only bought it for plinking" or "it works good for what I do with it" and I just shake my head. I have said it a hundred times here before and I probably need to add it to my sigline. Your carbine, rifle, musket or whatever is first and foremost a weapon to defend yourself and/or family should that need arise. Whatever you do with it after that is a fringe benefit.
If you do not have confidence in your weapons or gear then you will also not have much confidence in your mission. That's it plain and simple. There is little doubt in my mind if I grab one of my carbines out of the safe that they will work as intended. Because I either bought it or built it with the right stuff and I have put rounds through them.
I even trust my Bushmaster that I have here. Simply because I maintain it properly and I made changes to it to make sure it runs. Then over the course of about 4 days I poured just over 1400 rounds through it. I had a few malfunctions all of which were attributed to the ammunition and not the weapon.
CryingWolf
07-02-09, 05:33
Harley riders can be a bit snobbish, as I have had more Harley riders look straight at me and not wave or nod then any other group this includes the crotch rocket riders.
That is generally seen as a sign of respect.
[sorry off topic]:mad:
:confused: Do you ride? For you non riders it is customary to wave / low five or nod at fellow riders. Jeep and Beetle owners use to do the same thing, but that has been lost over time. I still offer them a low five peace sign. A low five among Harley riders is ok just don't low five a Suzuki rider in order to show that you respect him? I am a little confused at that :confused:
[on topic]:D
Yes, I did a little research on my AR purchase, some magazine articles and a friend helped. I do remember I wasn't even looking at a Colt though; I saw the price being out of reach.
CryingWolf
07-02-09, 06:01
People here help greatly, but they don't sugar coat it. Sometimes the best answer is to buy a better gun. As for your other suggestions, there is already another forum like that and people come here to avoid it.
I disagree, I think this forum has a lot in common with the 'other' forum then we care to admit. If a person comes on to either site and posts 'I bought a DPMS and I have a problem I could use some help with', there will be the posts that say, "You should have bought a Colt" Also correct me if I am wrong as I am not a member on TOS, but I do not recall there being separate forums for each AR manufacture, like a DPMS or a Bush Master forum?
My first AR was a 16" RRA middy with a chrome-molly barrel and A2 fixed stock and no carry handle. It was purchased September 14, 2004. I wanted to get all the evil features that I couldn't buy for 10 years. When I moved to US in 92 I was delighted to find out that an ordinary citizen can obtain a military type rifle to defend one's self against all possible threats. However it took me a few years to learn the language and find a job that paid sufficiently enough to afford a rifle. No such luck. Enter September 13, 1994 and all of a sudden prices were so high that with my part-time job and school loans a preban was out of question. I was young and being stupid (form over function) was dead set on having my rifle look like a real m16. I wasn't going to settle for a neutered one(no flash hider, no bayonet lug or collapsible stock:) So I waited and waited for a good price on a preban and never found one I was able to afford. A year later I bought a shotgun and totally forgot about buying a rifle. 9 years later with all TV stations screaming about the ban's sunset and an upcoming mayhem I was invigorated once more. This time I knew I had to buy one as another even more stringent ban may be coming and I will not be able to buy a rifle period. It was a research time for me. Lucky me, I found ARFCOM. I learned fast that Bushmaster and RRA are top of the line and COLTs are for stupid idiots who don't know where to spend extra cash - hence my first rifle.
Fast forward to now. I still have it. There has been a lot of changes done to it.
On a lower receiver I changed a stock for an Ace Socom, put a Timney trigger with KNS gen2 pins, Magpul trigger guard, CAA g27 grip and Enidine Hydraulic Recoil Buffer. On an upper receiver I put a Surefire 9" rail(non free-floating) and TD forward grip, Eotech 552 and ARMS 40L. A bolt was upgraded with a BCM extractor kit and a bolt carrier was staked. I used this rifle to learn all the ins and outs of the system. Now I use a Sabre 16" middy upper 1/7 with a BCM BCG, TLR-1(set on a stock hanguard), Aimpoint Micro T-1, Magpul MBUIS and padded VCAS, and a recent BCM middy upper with BCM BCG (didn't set it up yet) both on Stag lowers with Grant's LPKs and a Vltor E-Mods stock TD grips, LMT REs and CS springs with H buffers. Both of the new carbines were results of me stumbling upon M4C and finding out what's what. So I guess I'm ignorant no more.
I do not recall there being separate forums for each AR
manufacture, like a DPMS or a Bush Master forum?
Those and many more here (http://www.ar15.com/forums/board.html?b=2).
My first AR was a RRA with YHM stuff stuck all over it. It looked cool, it was priced right, and I didn't know any better. It didn't even have a chrome lined barrel, as that hurt accuracy. ;)
Yes, I did TONS of research. But MOST sites 5 years ago sang the praises of RRA rifles - they had great "fit and finish" after all.
I learned a bit - but my second AR was a RRA but at least I upgraded to DD Lite rails and better quality BUIS. And it had a CTR with a Milspec RE.
THEN I ended up here and started to receive my AR education from people that seemed to actually know something about these weapons.
My next several rifles are all guns I feel pretty good about. One rifle even has a LMT lower with a standard single stage trigger! The first RRA upper is sitting in the safe alone, and it's lower is now mated to a CMT upper with a Sabre Defence 1/7 barrel and a BCM FC BCG.
In the end I have 4 AR's - one is still the RRA upper but it's been upgraded to a BCM FA BCG and it's only real shortcoming is the 4140 1/9 barrel. I'll shoot it out and replace it one day. Otherwise, it's survived a carbine class a few years ago and has been pretty reliable so far.
They just cannot justify spending all the extra money for a weapon that is so marginally different from the one that costs half the price.
Part of the point is that the educated buyer CAN put together a gun quite easily for not much more coin at all over a RRA or DPMS rifle. Some guys here have laid of specs for rifles using BCM uppers and some other quality components for surprisingly competetive prices. Sure, there are some AR's that cost a lot of money - but you don't have to spend $2000 to get a properly assembled rifle.
Given this choice, and WHAT I KNOW NOW - I'd wait a few more months and save up another $200 and get something that I know is properly assembled of quality materials. People are starting to see Colts in stock again at <$1300 and they historically command a price premium.
I personally do not consider an improperly assembled rifle a "marginal difference" - but some people disagree.
Cory, I want to say first that I'm not picking on you, or bashing you. You just happen to have one post with a lot of potential talking points so I'm dividing it up and using those points. Hopefully you don't take any of this personally, as it's not intended to be personal.
OK! I have a feeling that I am going to open a hell of a can of worms here..... First off, I am not saying that I do not like Colt here BUT from my experience, I can't see how the Colt is better than RRA or Bushmaster.
educate yourself (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA)
AGAIN I said MY EXPERIENCE.
Which, by the fact that you repeat this several times, indicates that you know this means nill, right?
I am a police officer and have been for 11 years. The only colts that I have come across are the ones that were given to us buy the US military. Remember, the military awards jobs to the LOWEST bidder. They are M-16 A-1's with 20" bbls. They are too long for indoor work and they rattle like hell between the lower and upper receivers. Although A-1's they were brand new in the box when they came.
I'm not going to dispute your claim that they are brand new, but you realize how OLD they must be in any event, right? You also know that rattling between the upper and lower is a red herring in terms of accuracy, reliability, and anything else that really matters, right? You also need to brush up on procurement, as it's the lowest QUALIFIED BIDDER THAT MEETS THE SPEC. What's truly frightening is that all of these hobby guns can't even meet that spec. They don't get to even try to be lowest bidder because they can't meet the basic requirements.
I own a Colt lower that I had on an FN upper receiver and although it worked without a hiccup, the trigger was less than crisp.
As compared to what? My handguns were all Glocks and revolvers when I bought my first AR. Comparatively speaking the AR trigger was a dream. We are all victims of our frame of reference. Additionally, I'll take a "less than crisp" trigger in a gun that runs over a glass rod break trigger in a gun that won't any day of the week.
All of the AR platforms other than the Colts are either Bushmasters or Stag in several different configurations. I have personally owned a Bushmaster carbine and used it frequently for about 13 years. I wasn't very into shooting the ARs because of my love for handgun shooting. I also purchased an Oly in .45 ACP so I could shoot at the local indoor range (pistol caliber only) in the winter months. I had never had a functioning problem with this particular gun due to the way I care for all of my guns but it did start falling apart so I found a buyer for that one as quickly as I could.
Let's talk about all of this at once. First, it's important to understand that nobody is saying that even Oly can't make a gun that will run for thousands of rounds, or that Colt can't make a gun that will puke it's guts out on the very first trigger pull. What we're talking about is the quality of materials, the process of testing those materials, and the procedures for assembling same and how those items affect the LIKLIHOOD that the gun will run or won't run. See the first link a the top of this post for more on that.
I then began putting lower receivers together for friends and I began to enjoy building rifles no matter what brand the were. I purchased 5 stripped lowers for myself at the beginning of the Obama scare and they are 2 S&W m&ps, a Calvary Arms plastic lower (looked neat and couldn't beat the price) which I will sell after I build it for parts for another build and 2 RRA lowers. I have one of the M&P lowers built, after metal conditioning all of the parts, and I used a Double Star LPK which has the exact markings as the out of the box S&W M&Ps and Stag Arms rifles. I liked the trigger in this lower better than my Colt so I switched my main AR platform over to the S&W M&P.
All of which has what exactly to do with the topic at hand, or even where your post began? These days a stripped lower is no more than a shell at best, and just about any manufacturer would have to work hard at producing one that has problems. I've gotten to the point that I tell people to pick their lower based on the pretty picture on the magwell and availability.
My set up that I use now when I am at work and go to classes is a S&W M&P lower with a FN upper on a Wilson 11.5 heavy chrome lined bbl with a PWS brake, a Colt bolt and carrier, Magpul MBUS, ASAP, MAID grip, MOE stock, trigger guard and rail covers. Surefire M73 quad rail with a Pentagon Duo Light and a Knights MFG vert grip. The weapon is topped with an Eotech 553. I guess by standards of most of the posts in here, this weapon is not up to par.
Why would you say that? The most critical element is the bolt and carrier and you have the best possible example of that in your gun. Your ancillary bolt-on shit is all Magpul which is more than fine. Nobody here is going to bash your lower. I may disagree with your choice of barrel but if it works for you and has a confirmed 5.56 chamber and a twist rate that works with the ammo you shoot it's fine by me. I personally wouldn't bother with the Surefire rail, and prefer Aimpoints over Eotechs, but again if it's working for you then have at it.
I can say though, I am not a precision shooter but I hit paper every time moving or not, prone, sitting, kneeling or standing.
Which, you understand, in 2009 has virtually nothing to do with the gun in your hands, right? I bet you could do the same thing with even a Ruger Mini-14 in this age of precision manufacturing. Christ, even AKs are shooting accurately in 2009!
I have not had a malfunction since I switched to P-mags in November and the gun is the smoothest out of all of my department's and friend's rifles.
How do you define "smooth"?
I guess what I am trying to say in SO many words is that I am not too up to date on all the best of the best parts out there (that's why I joined this forum)
But if you're happy with what you have, and it's working for you in your application, then why change? This whole post brimming with confidence and then it all crumbles at this sentence.
but I would bet my life on my rifle and it functions better than what my department issues.
This is the first time you mentioned function issues with those A1s, but if what you're toting in your car works better for you then I don't think you're going to find anyone here bashing you for it.
One other general note on the above. I don't see any mention of round counts in any of this. Years yes, round counts no. I have had guys come out to just one of my puny drills nights and shoot 200 rounds from 18:00-22:00 and tell me that was more rounds in one night than they shot in the entire previous 365 days up to that point.
Just food for thought.
My first AR was a Bushmaster. I bought the upper and lower separate and had the upper sent to my house and the lower sent to the shop where I worked. It was a 16" HBAR upper and a full-stock lower. It was during the ban and was ban compliant with fixed stock, no flash suppressor, and un-threaded barrel.
At the time, the choices were Colt, Bushmaster, Armalite, Olympic, DPMS, and Hesse, pretty much in that order. What I really wanted was an Armalite but they were hard to get and the BM was available. I have seen too many Olys, DPMS, and Hesses come back to the shop with problems, so those were out. Colts were too expensive for me at the time, and still had some features I wasn't thrilled about like larger screws at the pivot pin instead of standard size pins. I wanted to mount a scout scope on the rifle so I ordered up an ARMs rail that bolted to the upper and cantilevered out over the handguards and sent the upper off to GG&G to have them install a flipup front sight pinned to the factory pin holes, and they installed a MAD rear sight at the same time.
Here's the only pictures I have of it. IIRC the rail caused issues with the MAD so the MAD went away.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/1156789rifleleft.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/1156791rifleright.jpg
As I've said elsewhere, times have drastically changed. We have a whole new crop of manufacturers available, and unfortunately for Armalite, Bushmaster, Olympic and DPMS those manufacturers slipped into the lineup just behind Colt, pushing all of these guys further down the list. It appears that of all of them Armalite is the only one that has made any attempt to improve their station and do things better. The rest are content to sit on their thumbs and brag about quantity not quality. In some cases I would even argue that some of these guys have slipped, as the Bushmaster carrier that came with my upper had a very well staked key and was lightyears better than what I've seen lately. Maybe they're still using the same machine and it's worn out?
CaptainDooley
07-02-09, 08:37
I guess I'm lucky. One of my main character strengths is input. I crave as much knowledge as I can get - so when I make a purchase of something I don't know about - I find out about it, in depth. So I read the gun rags and poked around on forums... Some of the guys who's opinion I trust lead me here from theakforum.net... I found the chart and figured out what on there was important and built a rifle with a BCM upper. My second rifle was a Colt... Thanks guys!
sandman99and9
07-02-09, 09:32
My first ar15 was a spike's tactical sr-15 bought in january of 09 I did not even think about looking at info online then:eek: It met my needs at the time, Price and availability. I got bashed on TOS and then found my way over here and am very happy with m4c !! I have learned a ton of things since then. I hope to get to one of Rob_s shoots in the future and see what I/my rifle are capable of. I find myself humbled by all the real world experience here and have to just laugh at the fools over on TOS spouting all the armchair commando crap constantly. Hey rob, where would spike's rank on the list ?? Thanks for all the great info guys.
s.m.
OK, My real world experience. My whole family shoots a lot. In the 80s my uncle bougth a Springfield Armory pistol that was "just as good as" a Colt for much less. It turned out (in our experience) that he was correct, and we have had many SA 1911s since then.
When ARs became popular another uncle said the same thing about Bushmaster and other brands. He was very wrong. I now get to spend my shooting sessions force-extracting mil-spec cassings (because they are chambered and gassed for .223 not 5.56) from their "just as good as" rifles, while my Dad's Colt and my BCM just keep chugging along. This is only a sample of about 20 rifles, but is enough for me.
Mine says .223/5.56 on the lower reciever and guess what the barell says on the bottom...5.56! Ill be darned! Guess what I feed it. .223 AND 5.56. And it works. Every time.
CaptainDooley
07-02-09, 09:42
Mine says .223/5.56 on the lower reciever and guess what the barell says on the bottom...5.56! Ill be darned! Guess what I feed it. .223 AND 5.56. And it works. Every time.
I'm glad you haven't had problems with it yet... but just ask Iraqgunz what he thinks about Bushmaster's 5.56 chambers.
I hate to burst your bubble but just because your barrel is marked 5.56 it means nothing. In case you are unaware it's the chamber that is problematic with guns like DPMS, Bushmaster, etc.. not necessarily the barrel. Find a Ned Christiansen chamber reamer, and put it in your DPMS then tell us what happens. I already know the answer because I have done it. As a matter of fact I did a fairly in-depth write up on one that was being used here on another contract.
I highly encourage you to get some good Federal 5.56 or other comparable ammo and run it through an intense shooting course and report back to us.
Mine says .223/5.56 on the lower reciever and guess what the barell says on the bottom...5.56! Ill be darned! Guess what I feed it. .223 AND 5.56. And it works. Every time.
In some instances, yes. Looking in the local classified right now, I see a Ford Tempo for $1650, and a Toyota Camry for $1900. Both with similar mileage. Sorry for all of you Ford folks, but from personal experience and a bit of research, I am confident that I could get about twice the mileage (we're talking 250K vs. 125K miles) out of the Camry. Does saving $250 to buy the Tempo on my initial purchase really make any sense? If I'm only going to drive it for a month, then maybe it does. If I need that car to get me to work for the next 4 years, then is most certainly does not.
Well I hate to go off topic, and in no way want to start an argument, but I would honestly go with the Ford myself, imagine that, right? haha. I prefer to buy vehicles from American companies, and dont tell me my Chevy truck was made in Canada or Mexico, because it was built in the truck plant in Texas. Toyota is a Japanese company, even if they build vehicles here, that does not make their company American. personaly feel like this is how they are invading our country. They can't do it by military force, so they do it economically. And in my opinion, you can research all you want, you can ask advice, but the truth is, nobody has driven these Toyotas and Fords or whatever it is, put hundreds of thousands of miles on both cars, followed the factory reccomended maintenence schedules, using all manufacturer reccomended components, and everything to back up their claims of how much more reliable one car is compared to another. In my opinion, if you maintain your vehicle properly, it will last you forever. I have an old Bowtie with just over 600,000 miles on it. I still haul hay, firewood, pull a trialer, or whatever I want with her. That, paired with the fact that both of my grandfathers worked for General motors, gives me tremendous brand loyalty.
Keep it on topic guys.
No cars, no motorcycle, no bullshit.
Aristogeiton
07-02-09, 11:39
In the beginning I bought Bushmaster because of what Guns & Ammo mag said about them. Pre TOS...
Then the TOS came alive and confirmed that Bushmaster was good.
Got most of my mis-guided info on the TOS after that.
Then found M4C, but it was really slow here and I didn't really look around a lot until about 2 or 3 years ago.
Since then, I have learned a lot about the AR-15 and it has both increase my love of the weapon and my irrational worry. :D
This is a simple answer -- 99.9% of civilians will never ever need to use their AR to defend life and limb. So, some can not justify the extra expense of a top of the line AR. For most, a DPMS, Stag, Bushmaster, etc will serve them very well.
I have and do own oly, bushmaster, stag. None of them have ever failed me.
Don't get me wrong, I own Colts too - and they will be my go to guns if the SHTF but i have no regrets in buying a "lesser" model AR.
To me, it's just that the vast majority of AR owners don't go to shooting classes every month where they fire 1k rounds down range. Most go to the range and shoot 50-100rnds and call it a day. For that type shooting, almost any AR will do.
nogoodnamesleft
07-02-09, 11:55
You also need to brush up on procurement, as it's the lowest QUALIFIED BIDDER THAT MEETS THE SPEC. What's truly frightening is that all of these hobby guns can't even meet that spec. They don't get to even try to be lowest bidder because they can't meet the basic requirements.
Hey rob_s, not picking on you here, but what SPEC would that be? MIL-C-71186(AR) and MIL-R-63997B(AR)? And if so, how is that a civilian buyer would know whether any manufacturer's AR substantively met these specs considering that these rifles are being sold into the commercial market? My point here is there are sections of those specs which are performance related and not easily verified. The LMT MIM gas key is a perfect example, would it meet the SPEC [MIL-C-71186(AR), 3.3.4.1] given the cracking?
How would I know for that matter that a particular Colt part sold commercially met the SPEC? I don't think I can and I don't think I can rely on reputation; if BM can mark a barrel as "B MP 5.56 NATO" and it not be 5.56 then what's in a marking if it's sold commercially?
I've read arguments that say this-company or that-company doesn't have government contracts and that's sufficient evidence that they don't meet the spec. But that conclusion doesn't follow, it could just as easily be that those manufacturers' bids did meet the spec but they were definitely not the lowest bidder and excluded on that basis. And similarly, just because Colt has a government contract doesn't necessarily mean the 6920/6940 they're selling you, the civilian, meets the spec either.
The buyer may look for easily verifiable features -- such as staking -- in commercial models but, honestly, they are hardly sufficient to tell if the rifle meets the spec. Two minutes with a punch makes those staking marks, but there's so much more in those specs. I think applying the spec to commercial rifles is folly without testing and testing isn't going to happen. I think the notion of using the military's SPEC for civilian purchased rifles is not realistic.
Someone please dig up the equine, set it on fire and beat it to death. This has been discussed time and time again. The end result is usually that someone gets butt hurt over their decision and the thread gets locked.
Is it possible that Colt, Noveske, LMT, Bravo Company, Daniel Defense and the other well known makers can put out a turd? Absolutely they can. But on the whole they all manufacture their weapons to a spec and they are consistent. Anything man made can fail without doubt. But, if you look with both eyes open you will see that the DPMSBushmasterOlyArms of the world fail at rates higher than the "brand names". You can almost rest assured that you will have to do something to them to make them reliable.
We aren't talking about rifles and carbines that are unobtanium when we talk about Colt, LMT, Noveske and others. They can all be had for reasonable prices and the price gap between them and the lesser brands are closing every day. If you can afford a 1000.00 Bushmaster then you can also afford 1300.00 Colt or 1200.00-ish Daniel Defense. It may take an extra month or two but it is a reality. And in all honesty if you can't afford the extra few hundred dollars then you are probably better off buying a shotgun because you won't have the money to buy mags and ammo to feed the AR.
Bottom line is this. If you're current DoublestarDPMSBushyNinjaCarbine works for you great. If you have 100% confidence in your weapon and you know that without hesitation when you pull the trigger it will go bang like it should then that's terrific. If you honestly can't answer the question then sleep well.
I got into AR's through NRA Highpower. my first AR was a Bushmaster DCM that I had a 20" SS Douglas full profile barrel on. because of the weight it was really impractical.
My first "practical" AR before I knew anything about anything, was an Armalite LEC carbine. as it turns out, that was not too bad a choice. not top-shelf but not bottom of the barrel, either. I keep it as a KISS rifle with just some MOE handguards and a G2 light. it's pretty small and light and it shoots as good as I can with iron sights. it's my "bump-in-the-night" rifle.
I sold the Bushie in Novermber and replaced it with the only thing available at the time - a GG&G Dominator 16" upper. everything about this upper is wrong. barrel steel is wrong, no HP/MPI, got a clamp gas block/folding FS combo, a GG&G A2 folding rear sight, non-floating rails, and it's even got one of those crap Phantom flash suppressors. however, it's got an M16 bolt carrier with a LT "better than Mil-spec" bolt, that I put the BCM extractor upgrade in anyway... :D
now, whatever else anyone may want to say about this rifle, it shoots amazingly well mounted on a RRA lower - like easily under an inch for 5 shots at 100yds using a 4x scope! regardless of ANY other considerations, in my book, this would be a very difficult rifle to part with.
are either of these a "trust my life on it, go into battle with, SHTF" rifle? no, I realize they aren't. but I sincerely hope that never comes to pass because the top line on my resume does not include the words "war fighter"...
just in case, though, I've got a complete CD lower waiting for the next opportunity at a BCM or other quality upper, probably a middie, maybe a shortie. when this happens, the Armalite finds a new home. I'll keep it simple with just a light and fixed sights, probably a RDS somewhere down the line, and this will be my go-to rifle.
and then maybe I'll rotate out the GG&G to make room for another "serious" rifle. I'd eventually like to have a minimum of three rifles in different configurations so it's possible I'll hold on to that and start from scratch with something else.
so, in answer to the original question, "Why did I buy it?", it was available at the time, it was affordable, and I didn't know any better. does that help?
bkb,
I even trust my Bushmaster that I have here. Simply because I maintain it properly and I made changes to it to make sure it runs. Then over the course of about 4 days I poured just over 1400 rounds through it. I had a few malfunctions all of which were attributed to the ammunition and not the weapon.
The above statements reflect why I have what I have and why I trust them to do the job I expect them to do.
1. I built each one and I used criteria, based on my personal experience and information received from a variety of sources, to determine whose and what parts I wanted to use.
2. I maintain them, so I know what's up with each one.
3. I have put a good number of rounds downrange to have confidence they will perform as I expect. (A small note here on this issue. I don't regularly attend carbine courses that require I put 1K worth of ammo downrange over a 48 hour time span. In fact, I doubt I'll ever have the money to afford even one of those classes. I do, however, very much appreciate the data Pat Rogers provides in this respect. If I get into a firefight, where I am able to expend over 1K worth of ammo, then somebody isn't doing their job. If I take on LE or mil, I figure if I expend 300 rounds before I'm taken out, then I'd be doing very, very good. If I expend more than 30 rounds taking out a criminal, then I'm doing something very, very wrong. So yes, my carbines will do exactly what I expect of them.)
For the record, I have 4 RRA uppers on 3 STAG and a RRA lower. A CMMG upper on a CMMG milled lower and a Noveske upper on a CDD lower. 5 of the LPK's are RRA and one is G&R. 3 VLTOR stocks, 2 CTR's, and one Tapco.
I do believe this was a proper response to the original OP. ;)
Hey rob_s, not picking on you here, but what SPEC would that be? MIL-C-71186(AR) and MIL-R-63997B(AR)? And if so, how is that a civilian buyer would know whether any manufacturer's AR substantively met these specs considering that these rifles are being sold into the commercial market? My point here is there are sections of those specs which are performance related and not easily verified. The LMT MIM gas key is a perfect example, would it meet the SPEC [MIL-C-71186(AR), 3.3.4.1] given the cracking?
How would I know for that matter that a particular Colt part sold commercially met the SPEC? I don't think I can and I don't think I can rely on reputation; if BM can mark a barrel as "B MP 5.56 NATO" and it not be 5.56 then what's in a marking if it's sold commercially?
I've read arguments that say this-company or that-company doesn't have government contracts and that's sufficient evidence that they don't meet the spec. But that conclusion doesn't follow, it could just as easily be that those manufacturers' bids did meet the spec but they were definitely not the lowest bidder and excluded on that basis. And similarly, just because Colt has a government contract doesn't necessarily mean the 6920/6940 they're selling you, the civilian, meets the spec either.
The buyer may look for easily verifiable features -- such as staking -- in commercial models but, honestly, they are hardly sufficient to tell if the rifle meets the spec. Two minutes with a punch makes those staking marks, but there's so much more in those specs. I think applying the spec to commercial rifles is folly without testing and testing isn't going to happen. I think the notion of using the military's SPEC for civilian purchased rifles is not realistic.
You're making a lot of leaps, but I'll indulge you under the assumption you're actually asking these questions and not just trolling, and in the hopes that somebody else reading this doesn't think you have a point.
I was talking particularly about procurement because the poster I quoted mis-stated how it works. I wasn't referring to what any civilian buyer does, or even to any specific spec. He said "low bidder", and I corrected him. My day job is construction, and we are not simply selected as "low bidder", we're the lowest bidder that can comply with the drawings and specs. and just like in the gun world, we get a lot of contractors that can't even meet the base spec.
In fact, the Chart isn't a list of the military spec, it's a list of desirable features with a pretty lengthy explanation of why they are desirable.
How do we know Bushmaster, Olympic, DPMS, and the like don't meet the spec? Because if you know the right questions to ask they'll TELL YOU that they don't!
What most uneducated buyers do is call up the manufacturer of the gun they've already settle on buying (or too often, already bought), and ask "do you make a milspec AR?" To which, of course, the manufacturer (or whatever $5/hour nitwit that answered the phone that day) says "yes we do!" The problem is that they asked the wrong question. What they should have asked was "do high pressure test and magnetically particle inspect every single bolt that is sold with your rifles?", or "Does your barrel steel meet MIL-B-1195-E?" If you ask the right questions, they'll tell you point blank that they don't meet a specific spec you're asking about. Or as you yourself pointed out just pick one up and see if they have bothered to stake the receiver endplate or the carrier key at all.
Finally, since you "think the notion of using the military's SPEC for civilian purchased rifles is not realistic", what do you suggest instead?
"Actions speak louder than words..." ~ Unknown / My Dad ~
Honestly, money - or the lack thereof! - dictated many a purchase for me, in my
beginnings. Yet I've been strangely blessed: for instance, I had a parkerized Llama Max .45 that was an absolute tack-driver of a pistol, shooting 3/4" groups at 20 yds. with 230gr ball, and cost me (several years ago) $190.00 - NIB!! Or the Interstate "Hawk" 870 copy that'll shoot palm-sized patterns of #00 buck @ 75 feet using Federal Tactical.
My point is: firearms are made by people. People are imperfect. By extrapolation, all firearms are imperfect, making the "Mine is better than yours!" argument pointless and totally w/o merit (except, perhaps, as an "intellectual exercise"...) :rolleyes: Refine your 'strong' weapons and rebuild the weak. And give thanks that you live in a country which allows you to do both!!! (Oh - and check THIS out..!!!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrvFUuNBY3M&feature=channel_page
flyboy1788
07-02-09, 13:31
I hate to burst your bubble but just because your barrel is marked 5.56 it means nothing. In case you are unaware it's the chamber that is problematic with guns like DPMS, Bushmaster, etc.. not necessarily the barrel. Find a Ned Christiansen chamber reamer, and put it in your DPMS then tell us what happens. I already know the answer because I have done it. As a matter of fact I did a fairly in-depth write up on one that was being used here on another contract.
I highly encourage you to get some good Federal 5.56 or other comparable ammo and run it through an intense shooting course and report back to us.
Iraq gunz, have you by chance used the ned christiansen device on s&w m&ps?? If so, what did you find?? Thanks. I have 'heard' they are true 5.56 but cannot be sure.
I bought a Bushmaster M4A3 as a first AR. I had been issued Colt M4s in the Army but I thought that an AR was an AR, they were all built the same and no dealers that I knew of at the time even stocked Colts and I had never even heard of LMT or Noveske yet. I liked my Bushmaster and it served me well but once I started researching upgrades I ended up on TOS. That is where I learned about "the chart" and all of the shortcomings of RRA, Bushmaster, DPMS etc. I upgraded my Bushmaster in all of the critical areas and purchased a Colt 6920 for my next M4 type carbine.
My point is: firearms are made by people. People are imperfect. By extrapolation, all firearms are imperfect, making the "Mine is better than yours!" argument pointless and totally w/o merit (except, perhaps, as an "intellectual exercise"...)
The issue of great companies putting out duds has been addressed by the people supporting tier 1 companies. The rate at which company X or company Y cranks out turds is the issue.
Company X makes 1,000 carbines and 15 fail in one way or another.
Company Y makes 1,000 carbines and 1 fails in one way or another.
Even though company X has a failure rate that is 15 times greater, you're not willing to say that company Y makes a better carbine just because people are imperfect and no one can make a 100% perfect product 100% of the time?
No one has said that anyone is perfect, but that doesn't negate that some products and companies are quantifiably better.
People aren't perfect, we all do bad things. I speed on the highway sometimes... the guy down the block from me sells drugs and beats his girlfriend. To say that I'm not a better person than he is because I also break the law sometimes is therefore "pointless and totally w/o merit"?
To answer the original poster, my first AR was a Bushy. It was during the Ban days and at that time the forums of which I was a member deemed Bushy to be a fantastic carbine. I thought I had done my research and that I was getting a great product. As I learned more I learned what was wrong with it and was able to recognize those issues in my own carbine. I am still happy with what I got and how it has treated me, but I've purchased better things since then and haven't looked back. If I had it to do over again I would do it differently but I don't regret it greatly.
CryingWolf
07-02-09, 15:04
Those and many more here (http://www.ar15.com/forums/board.html?b=2).
Thanks, I stand corrected.
I guess my point is if you have a forum for DPMS your less likely to get the Colt owners say you should have bought a Colt when you are asking a question on the AR you do own.
OTOH
It might thin out some of the forums a little too much so, it would be kind of nice to let the person with the problem come to his own conclusion on which rifle he / she should have gotten. If a person with a Oly says they are having an extraction issue, and the inevitable post, 'you should have looked at "the chart" and bought a Colt you dumb shit.' It would be a breath of fresh air if said person with whom has that post in mind would just STFU and let "knowledgeable / helpful" people help said Oly owner with their problem.
I think owners of these "inferior":rolleyes: firearms probably don't post as much because they are afraid of being a belittled for their choice of AR.
No because we only have Bushies. The only other carbines I see aside from them are the occasional Colts when I venture to another location. I am sure that Robb or Grant can provide some insight.
Iraq gunz, have you by chance used the ned christiansen device on s&w m&ps?? If so, what did you find?? Thanks. I have 'heard' they are true 5.56 but cannot be sure.
No because we only have Bushies.
How have the Bushies held up?
Reliable, or constant problems?
What is the most recurring problem they have?
Thanks.
Parabellum9x19mm
07-02-09, 16:00
my first AR was a bushie. i bought it because i simply didn't know any better. i was also guided towards bushie by many on TOS. my only experience with ARs previously was with M16A2s and A4s.
anywho, i kept the lower & sold the upper (partially because i didn't like the HBAR 16" profile), replaced it with a LMT 16" M4 upper.
the LMT upper with rails is still lighter than the HBAR was.
since then, i have only bought Noveske and BCM uppers and couldn't be happier with them.
there was nothing terribly wrong with my bushie, in terms of operation (besides stuck Wolf cases). but it did exhibit weak carrier key staking, no castle nut staking and generally lesser quality materials and construction (lots of tool marks on the bolt's locking lugs for instance)....but mostly stuff that could be fixed quite easily with a couple whacks, reaming the chamber & swapping some parts.
but i was happier just selling it instead of trying to "fix" it.
for what i paid for the bushie i could have just saved up a couple hundred more and gotten something much better right from the start. they're just over-priced for what you get.
plus the LMT upper eats up Wolf like its tax deductible....no more torn rims and stuck cases like with the bushie
Most people buy lower grade AR's because of one of these reasons:
1. False advertising.
2. Gun Shop Lies.
3. Is what their buddy, uncle, father shoots.
4. Is what the morons on a certain AR forum tell them to buy.
5. Is what they can afford.
6. They know the quality AR's from the crappy ones, but "good enough" works for them.
7. Got a "smokin deal" on one.
C4
Do the research, buy the best you can afford, and run what you brung.
My opinion - worth what you paid for it. ;)
A couple of years ago I bought a Stag which is my first AR. At that time I had not educated myself about the differences between the tiers and it was more of an impulse buy. Still, the gun is good for me because it's helping me learn about the platform and what makes it tic.
Having said that, I've always had a thing for exotic, top-of-the line kit and plan to do a full build eventually. At that point the Stag lower will most likely end up mated with a dedicated .22 upper.
TriumphRat675
07-02-09, 16:28
5. Is what they can afford.
6. They know the quality AR's from the crappy ones, but "good enough" works for them.
C4
These two. I bought an early Stag made S&W because it was $400 cheaper than a 6920 in the local shop and it was the difference between getting one and not getting one. I knew it wasn't quite as good as the Colt; I also didn't think the Colt was $400 better. That was before I found this site and got a better job.
After that, and before I took a carbine class, I sold it and bought the 6920 - there's $200 worth of "experience" for you right there.
The issue of great companies putting out duds has been addressed by the people supporting tier 1 companies. The rate at which company X or company Y cranks out turds is the issue.
Company X makes 1,000 carbines and 15 fail in one way or another.
Company Y makes 1,000 carbines and 1 fails in one way or another.
Even though company X has a failure rate that is 15 times greater, you're not willing to say that company Y makes a better carbine just because people are imperfect and no one can make a 100% perfect product 100% of the time?
No one has said that anyone is perfect, but that doesn't negate that some products and companies are quantifiably better.
This fact is KEY. The carbines and rifles we love are nothing more than a PRODUCT. Which means it is nothing more than a material object that has been produced. Drop the emotional attachment to it. If it doesn't run, sell it, and upgrade. If it runs, keep it. Understand that it is just an object. As humans, we attach value to objects subjectively, there in lies the rub.
The problem in this thread is that those who purchased a quantifiably less reliable (quality, etc., insert word of choice here) are now defending their purchase instead of answering the original question.
I purchased after a year plus of research via the errorwebs/books/magazines, etc. I was also actively pursuing knowledge in classes and anyone who had valid points that I could learn from, i.e. armorers. I made an educated choice, assembled my carbine from top tier mfr's parts and it has been very reliable for the mutt that it is. In the two years it served as a duty weapon I put in excess of 10K rounds through it. It has since been turned into my training carbine.
The long winded point is with the high level of documented quality available for a reasonable price, why did you purchase what you did? If I were to do it again today, I'd purchase a complete carbine from DD, Colt, LMT, or Noveske. I've seen examples of each go tits up in classes. By far though, the weapons I've seen fail in classes are the ones on the lower end of the chart. The chart is what it is, just an objective look at what products are available.
They have run good after I did the following. The issues I couldn't fix were the crappy aluminum YHM sights that came with them or the YHM rails that occasionally loosen up.
1. Staked the bolt carrier key
2. Replaced the extractor spring
3. Staked the lower receiver extension
4. Reamed the chamber
How have the Bushies held up?
Reliable, or constant problems?
What is the most recurring problem they have?
Thanks.
give thanks that you live in a country which allows you to do both!!! (Oh - and check THIS out..!!!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrvFUuNBY3M&feature=channel_page
dunking an AR in muddy Washington water- which only serves to lubricate the weapon, and firing less than 100 rounds, does absolutely nothing to prove, or disprove, the reliability of a weapon.
and he did have a failure- one that would have left him dead had he been facing an armed threat. and the purpose of combat weapon test is to observe its performance in combat conditions, hence his dumping it in mud and firing rapidly. his weapon failed that test. you can believe his explaination if you want.
we're talking about the difference between fightin guns and sport guns. sport guns can be either competition or just plinkers.
fightin guns are a whole different ball of wax. whether you NEED a fightin gun or not- for defense, for work, for robbing banks, for fun, whatever- a fightin' gun is one that puts reliability OVER ALL ELSE. if you didn't purchase your weapon with that emphasis in mind- you're barking up the wrong tree.
fightin' gun, in order of priority:
1. Reliability
2. accuracy
3. durability
4. cost
competition gun:
1. accuracy
2. reliability
3. durability
4. cost
plinking gun:
1. cost
2. accuracy
3. reliability
4. durability
how can we expect to debate the merits, or lack thereof, of a particular weapon if we're approaching the question with different priorities in mind? chasing after the wind, people.
let's get back to the original question, please.
CryingWolf
07-02-09, 17:58
and he did have a failure- one that would have left him dead had he been facing an armed threat. and the purpose of combat weapon test is to observe its performance in combat conditions, hence his dumping it in mud and firing rapidly. his weapon failed that test. you can believe his explaination if you want.
I like to give people a benefit of doubt. He may have a reason to lie but I didn't see it and I did see him dump another mag after that. I reload and it wouldn't be hard to leave a .223 round a little long, to jam a magazine. I say even the Colt user would be just a dead. Goes to show the importance of good mags and spec ammo.
we're talking about the difference between fightin guns and sport guns. sport guns can be either competition or just plinkers.
fightin guns are a whole different ball of wax. whether you NEED a fightin gun or not- for defense, for work, for robbing banks, for fun, whatever- a fightin' gun is one that puts reliability OVER ALL ELSE. if you didn't purchase your weapon with that emphasis in mind- you're barking up the wrong tree.
fightin' gun, in order of priority:
1. Reliability
2. accuracy
3. durability
4. cost
competition gun:
1. accuracy
2. reliability
3. durability
4. cost
plinking gun:
1. cost
2. accuracy
3. reliability
4. durability
how can we expect to debate the merits, or lack thereof, of a particular weapon if we're approaching the question with different priorities in mind? chasing after the wind, people.
let's get back to the original question, please.
I would agree with pointing out "the chart" and get a Colt people if the number one reason is "I got it for self defense" (Home or Family etc). I would even include the SHTF reasoning with that group. Shoot if my primary reason is for self defense and SHTF I am running out and buy a Colt. Battle tested for sure.
I bought my M&P15A because I wanted an AR. I think they look cool, and it brought back memories from my range times in the AF. I wanted something I could have fun with at the range and maybe do the smack down on some pdogs and yotes someday. Self defense and SHTF really didn't enter in my mind. Shoot I was more worried about an AWB then using it in defense of my home. With what I have in place for the protection of my family and me if I am reaching for the AR then something has gone horribly wrong and I am dead already.
flyboy1788
07-02-09, 18:11
I noticed that people on this thread are stuck on brand x, y, or z and havent really covered the fact that if you get a lower tier carbine, you can upgrade certain parts when you get the money. I started with a stock m&p15a that I paid 900 for plus tax. It came with the LMT bolt carrier group and was staked nicely. The bolt, however, even though it was machined like other LMT bolts I have seen with the undercut/recess right behind the lugs, did not have an mp marking on it.
My gut tells me that it still was tested because LMT is a reputable company, but I threw in a BCM mp tested bolt anyways and now have the LMT as my backup. I put a geissele SSA in there as well as magpul furniture. I will finish it off with an H2 buffer and call it a day. It has 1200 rounds through it with one ammo related failure (wolf). I would assume my chamber is 5.56 due to the fact that intense heat (300 rounds of 5.56 in a half hour) has not cause stuck cases
The only serious downside to my current setup is the barrel being 4140. The 1/9 was my preffered twist. My next gun, however, will most likely be a top tier carbine with all the bells and whistles from the factory. That being said, I do not regret getting my smith, as I have learned a whole lot about the ar-15 platform by coming to this site and others and doing my homework and now I have a better idea of what I want/like in a carbine.
I'm interested to hear short stories of why people chose to buy lesser-quality weapons- bush, DPMS, oly, RRA, etc..
there's a lot of people come around and post something to the effect of "i bought this DPMS last month, signed up here, and learned that it's not the greatest of choices, so i'm _________ (getting rid of it, fixing it up, etc)..."
this isn't at all a ripfest on you or your weapon. i'm just interested to know WHY you chose the weapon that you did, before you knew- what research did you do? how available was information? did you have problems finding information? did you get recommendations from people? what web-sources did you investigate? books that you read? etc.
back when i first started out in the AR world, information was nill. there were a few books out, but they focused on function, shooting, cleaning, stripping, etc- there wasn't really anything out with great technical information. furthermore, there wasn't 1/20th of the selection to chose from- more often than not, if you couldn't afford/could find colt parts, you were left with no-name gunshow parts or Quality Parts Inc (bushmaster) parts- which were actually, next to colt, the only manufacturer with a name that put any degree of quality control into their processes. My first build was a ban-compliant attempt at a carbine, and it was about 50% bushmaster, with a few colt parts and the rest were unknown origin. if i were to have purchased a complete gun, it would have been an Armalite or Bushmaster, I'm sure. fortunately, i did get a little inside information from a gunsmith i'd met at a gun show, and assembled something pretty decent. i'm just curious as to how much has changed, what the word is on the streetz, etc. so share your story, por favor.
dunking an AR in muddy Washington water- which only serves to lubricate the weapon, and firing less than 100 rounds, does absolutely nothing to prove, or disprove, the reliability of a weapon.
and he did have a failure- one that would have left him dead had he been facing an armed threat. and the purpose of combat weapon test is to observe its performance in combat conditions, hence his dumping it in mud and firing rapidly. his weapon failed that test. you can believe his explaination if you want.
we're talking about the difference between fightin guns and sport guns. sport guns can be either competition or just plinkers.
fightin guns are a whole different ball of wax. whether you NEED a fightin gun or not- for defense, for work, for robbing banks, for fun, whatever- a fightin' gun is one that puts reliability OVER ALL ELSE. if you didn't purchase your weapon with that emphasis in mind- you're barking up the wrong tree.
fightin' gun, in order of priority:
1. Reliability
2. accuracy
3. durability
4. cost
competition gun:
1. accuracy
2. reliability
3. durability
4. cost
plinking gun:
1. cost
2. accuracy
3. reliability
4. durability
how can we expect to debate the merits, or lack thereof, of a particular weapon if we're approaching the question with different priorities in mind? chasing after the wind, people.
let's get back to the original question, please.
I'm just wondering how we got off topic. Where did it say in your original post that we were talking about "fighting weapons"?
As i posted already, people buy off brands for many reasons. Not everyone needs the latest and greatest to go to the range and shoot 50-100 rounds every month. Not everyone intends to defend life and limb with their AR. Some prefer to buy a "lesser" AR and 1k rounds of ammo for the same price as a colt lmt etc. And heck, some will make the 1k rounds of ammo last for a year or more too. It just comes down to what is most important to the buyer.
flyboy1788
07-02-09, 18:15
I noticed that people on this thread are stuck on brand x, y, or z and havent really covered the fact that if you get a lower tier carbine, you can upgrade certain parts when you get the money.
I am a poor college student and money is very tight for me, especially considering my dad forces me to save a good part of every paycheck. So I decided to get into the ar15 game with a stock m&p15a that I paid 900 for plus tax. I chose the m&p because it was better than many of the others as far as what it came standard with, and although it is not quite a colt, it saved me some coin to spend on ammo and such at the time. It came with the LMT bolt carrier group and was staked nicely. The bolt, however, even though it was machined like other LMT bolts I have seen with the undercut/recess right behind the lugs, did not have an mp marking on it.
My gut tells me that it still was tested because LMT is a reputable company, but I threw in a BCM mp tested bolt anyways and now have the LMT as my backup. I put a geissele SSA in there as well as magpul furniture. I will finish it off with an H2 buffer and call it a day. It has 1200 rounds through it with one ammo related failure (wolf). I would assume my chamber is 5.56 due to the fact that intense heat (300 rounds of 5.56 in a half hour) has not cause stuck cases
The only serious downside to my current setup is the barrel being 4140. The 1/9 was my preffered twist. My next gun, however, will most likely be a top tier carbine with all the bells and whistles from the factory. That being said, I do not regret getting my smith, as I have learned a whole lot about the ar-15 platform by coming to this site and others and doing my homework and now I have a better idea of what I want/like in a carbine.
because this thread was never intended to debate quality. as i said previously, for the purposes of this thread- lesser quality guns are to be considered lesser quality. if you feel like your lesser quality gun isn't, in fact, lesser quality, don't post.. because all you're (i'm using "you" and "you're" in a general sense) going to do is start more arguing.
flyboy1788
07-02-09, 18:20
because this thread was never intended to debate quality. as i said previously, for the purposes of this thread- lesser quality guns are to be considered lesser quality. if you feel like your lesser quality gun isn't, in fact, lesser quality, don't post.. because all you're (i'm using "you" and "you're" in a general sense) going to do is start more arguing.
touche ;)
RogerinTPA
07-02-09, 18:29
I noticed that people on this thread are stuck on brand x, y, or z and havent really covered the fact that if you get a lower tier carbine, you can upgrade certain parts when you get the money.
As previously stated, it's not the subject of the thread.
It's a well known fact that the knowledge based threads will get your brand X AR up to speed on reliability if it is to the right of the chart.
because this thread was never intended to debate quality. as i said previously, for the purposes of this thread- lesser quality guns are to be considered lesser quality. if you feel like your lesser quality gun isn't, in fact, lesser quality, don't post.. because all you're (i'm using "you" and "you're" in a general sense) going to do is start more arguing.
Maybe i'm just missing the boat - but i don't think i was arguing that my lesser quaility AR's are just as good as a top tier AR. However, my point was that you never stated "fighting weapon". Not everyone buys an AR to be a fighting weapon. I am not trying to start an argument - i'm just stating why I / others might buy a lesser AR - like your thread question asked.
I bought my "lesser" quality AR's because they cost less. Simple as that. I dont need a Colt, LMT, Noveske, etc to take my son (14) to the range and let him put 100 rnds down range. His Stag does just fine for that.
I own 2 colts - 6920 and 6933 and a BCM middy. Those would be my go to guns if the shtf. But for general plinking, a Stag, bushmaster, RRA, etc is good enough.
Again, to answer your question, not everyone needs a top tier weapon for plinking. If it was their only AR, i'd highly suggest they spend the few hundred dollars more and get a top tier. However, if they already have their basics covered, a lower tier AR isn't a problem for just plinking.
That is why i buy what i buy.
nogoodnamesleft
07-02-09, 19:19
You're making a lot of leaps, but I'll indulge you under the assumption you're actually asking these questions and not just trolling, and in the hopes that somebody else reading this doesn't think you have a point.
No, I'm not trolling.
I was talking particularly about procurement because the poster I quoted mis-stated how it works. I wasn't referring to what any civilian buyer does, or even to any specific spec. He said "low bidder", and I corrected him.
I wasn't referring to this, rather the notion that a "lesser" manufacturer isn't a supplier because it can't meet the basic requirement: "What's truly frightening is that all of these hobby guns can't even meet that spec. They don't get to even try to be lowest bidder because they can't meet the basic requirements."
The confusion, I think, is that there is an assumption that a manufacturer's AR platforms will be nearly the same regardless of them being produced for the military or for the commercial market. I don't believe they necessarily will be, and can't be assumed to be even with military contract in hand. This may be a misinterpretation on my part about what you wrote, but I'm not sure.
My day job is construction, and we are not simply selected as "low bidder", we're the lowest bidder that can comply with the drawings and specs. and just like in the gun world, we get a lot of contractors that can't even meet the base spec.
In fact, the Chart isn't a list of the military spec, it's a list of desirable features with a pretty lengthy explanation of why they are desirable.
How do we know Bushmaster, Olympic, DPMS, and the like don't meet the spec? Because if you know the right questions to ask they'll TELL YOU that they don't!
What most uneducated buyers do is call up the manufacturer of the gun they've already settle on buying (or too often, already bought), and ask "do you make a milspec AR?" To which, of course, the manufacturer (or whatever $5/hour nitwit that answered the phone that day) says "yes we do!" The problem is that they asked the wrong question. What they should have asked was "do high pressure test and magnetically particle inspect every single bolt that is sold with your rifles?", or "Does your barrel steel meet MIL-B-1195-E?" If you ask the right questions, they'll tell you point blank that they don't meet a specific spec you're asking about. Or as you yourself pointed out just pick one up and see if they have bothered to stake the receiver endplate or the carrier key at all.
If you ask BM are their chambers 5.56 NATO spec, they'll tell you yes and, by God, it's stamped right there on the barrel. IG, on the other hand, might disagree with that (don't want to put words into his mouth). Do you think BM is being disingenuous or just oblivious to a particular production issue? If you look at the LMT MIM gas keys, are they staked correctly to spec? Would a new buyer be able to tell -- well there are those tremendous indentations on it so it must be good, right? Would you accept it?
Does BM barrel steel meet MIL-B-1195-E? Well it is advertised as 4150, one of the three listed in the spec. Does that mean all 4150 steel will meet the chemical analysis given by that spec? Good luck getting that out of BM.
You can arrange a list of questions pulled from the spec for all sorts of things, crazy difficult things like barrel assembly straightness, all which are unverifiable by the commercial purchaser. They simply aren't qualified as first time purchasers.
Finally, since you "think the notion of using the military's SPEC for civilian purchased rifles is not realistic", what do you suggest instead?
I actually think your chart is a pretty good start. But what it needs is proper methods for inspection with examples, even for things like staking (I wouldn't have thought such until I saw BM staking compared to Colt and now LMT MIM key staking.) But other things too, like what is a proper M4 feed ramp in the barrel extension and lower receiver.
I think IG had the sanest response so far, looking at actual failure rates. Like in the ammo review sections of TOS, there are informal polls relating to experiences with each brand and cartirdge. Maybe that needs to be done for the different brands of ARs, where actual users relate their field experiences. A type of Consumer Reports for ARs.
CryingWolf
07-02-09, 19:23
because this thread was never intended to debate quality. as i said previously, for the purposes of this thread- lesser quality guns are to be considered lesser quality. if you feel like your lesser quality gun isn't, in fact, lesser quality, don't post.. because all you're (i'm using "you" and "you're" in a general sense) going to do is start more arguing.
Your argument is right there. Don't make me pull out the college logic course. Quality is in the eye of the beholder.
Maybe i'm just missing the boat - but i don't think i was arguing that my lesser quaility AR's are just as good as a top tier AR. However, my point was that you never stated "fighting weapon". Not everyone buys an AR to be a fighting weapon. I am not trying to start an argument - i'm just stating why I / others might buy a lesser AR - like your thread question asked.
I bought my "lesser" quality AR's because they cost less. Simple as that. I dont need a Colt, LMT, Noveske, etc to take my son (14) to the range and let him put 100 rnds down range. His Stag does just fine for that.
I own 2 colts - 6920 and 6933 and a BCM middy. Those would be my go to guns if the shtf. But for general plinking, a Stag, bushmaster, RRA, etc is good enough.
Again, to answer your question, not everyone needs a top tier weapon for plinking. If it was their only AR, i'd highly suggest they spend the few hundred dollars more and get a top tier. However, if they already have their basics covered, a lower tier AR isn't a problem for just plinking.
That is why i buy what i buy.
I think I missed the boat too; Probably because I do not think of my AR as my go to weapon when I hear a bump in the middle of the night. Even without my AR I am well healed in the self defense department.
I just ordered yesterday an MP15X ( Thanks G&R tactical). The reasons were price and because I owned a MP15T last year and thought it was great. No issues ( for the little I shot it ) and at 100yds it grouped just barely over an inch with 55gr & 75gr Wolf.
The reason I bought the MP15T was due to the article last April in SWAT magazine by Pat Rogers. He had 3 MP15 rifles with decent round counts and no major issues.
I also liked all the extras that came standard on the 15T & 15X.
i didn't state anywhere that you could or could not post about your non-fighting gun, did i?
the criteria for posting in this thread: You bought a lower tier weapon before you knew better, please tell us the story.
you can post any mother ****in gun you want.
what YOU'RE refering to was me saying: If you want to try to argue that your gun is NOT lower tier- first of all, don't do it in this thread. Secondly, don't do so unless you bought it with reliability as a first priority, because nobody cares why you bought a beer-can killer.
CryingWolf
07-02-09, 20:17
i didn't state anywhere that you could or could not post about your non-fighting gun, did i?
the criteria for posting in this thread: You bought a lower tier weapon before you knew better, please tell us the story.
you can post any mother ****in gun you want.
what YOU'RE refering to was me saying: If you want to try to argue that your gun is NOT lower tier- first of all, don't do it in this thread. Secondly, don't do so unless you bought it with reliability as a first priority, because nobody cares why you bought a beer-can killer.
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/3568/img1106wum.jpg :D:p:rolleyes::eek::o
Not everyone buys an AR to be a fighting weapon.
It has always been my general assumption that this site is based on fighting weapons. When you are discussing weapons here there should be no need to make a distinction between plinker and life-taker/saver.
I think IG had the sanest response so far, looking at actual failure rates. Like in the ammo review sections of TOS, there are informal polls relating to experiences with each brand and cartirdge. Maybe that needs to be done for the different brands of ARs, where actual users relate their field experiences. A type of Consumer Reports for ARs.
Those threads are of such little value it's not even worth participating in. With no way to verify what's posted there and no idea who's posting, the results can easily be skewed.
All of this comes down to giving people the basic information to decide for themselves. For me, and in my mind, talking with people that see hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange every year, people that have BEEN to Colt's plant, supervising my own little slice of shooters and rounds downrange, and my own experience with my own guns and those I've sold, I KNOW that Colt makes a better product. Ultimately I don't care what someone else buys, until they show up at a class I'm in, or an event I'm running, and screw things up for everyone else while they're sidelined with their POS. Ultimately I don't care if it's pixie dust that Colt sprinkles on their guns, they just flat work. The Chart, and my inquisitive nature that led to it, is the culmination of me attempting to quantify and qualify the market, but it's never going to be good enough for everyone. People need to read the explanation of features, follow the links included therein, and educate themselves. Or they can just buy the Colt to begin with and be done. ;)
The goal of forums, charts, etc. should be to try and impart as much of that information as possible to people without them having to go through all of that, especially when they may simply be unable. Unfortunately there's a huge segment of the market that bought first and asked questions later, have virtually no experience of consequence, and who's only goal is to justify their own purchase in their mind.
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/3568/img1106wum.jpg :D:p:rolleyes::eek::o
do you think i'll shit my pants over some color?
here's my target gun. usually wears a leupold 3x9, but that got moved to a difference weapon.
http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/90/l_4f264a9e26ca4971bce07b8e15202677.jpg
Does BM barrel steel meet MIL-B-1195-E? Good luck getting that out of BM.
Have you ever tried? You might be surprised what they are willing to tell you if you find the right person at the company and work your way past the idiot answering the phone, or representing the company on an internet forum.
A member of TOS recently took it upon himself to discover what steel Armalite was using in their barrels. He damn near got himself banned from there for doing it, but ultimately the lackey that represents Armalite on the forums went and found somebody that actually knows and shared the information. If you look at the current Chart you'll see that they have a different spec in their column, but it's still a spec nonetheless, and the only reason the information is there is because someone hounded them and got the answer.
CryingWolf
07-02-09, 20:44
It has always been my general assumption that this site is based on fighting weapons. When you are discussing weapons here there should be no need to make a distinction between plinker and life-taker/saver.
"The purpose of M4Carbine.net is to provide a forum to share professional and technical information with the shooting community. The forum is open to military, law enforcement, and recreational shooters."
I would say there is quiet a few members who fall into the last category.
do you think i'll shit my pants over some color?
here's my target gun. usually wears a leupold 3x9, but that got moved to a difference weapon.
http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/90/l_4f264a9e26ca4971bce07b8e15202677.jpg
I think I pooped a little. :eek:
I guess it is just human nature to try to defend what choices we make, right or wrong. But as rightfully stated these rifles are tools built by companies to different specs and the pieces parts DO make a difference.
Far too often it is our nature to jump into the game before we truly understand the rules. Had I spent a little more time reading and learning and had I not been a victim of baracknophobia, I would have saved up a little more and bought the Colt 6920.
Discussions such as this trying to ask a simple honest question always gets sidelined by people who are not willing to see and acknowledge the differences that make up the various Tier Levels. http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/5136/shrugpy1.gif
My first non military use AR is going to be a Noveske lower with a Noveske upper or LaRue upper. Not for tactical use but for hunting use and target shooting. Probably will get a second upper for close in work but lower priority. Stocking up on ammo and quality spare parts. Who know what the future holds for AR type guns in this climate. Looks like ammo is more an issue than the guns. How high can 5.56/223 get per 1000?
My first non military use AR is going to be a Noveske lower with a Noveske upper or LaRue upper. Not for tactical use but for hunting use and target shooting. Probably will get a second upper for close in work but lower priority. Stocking up on ammo and quality spare parts. Who know what the future holds for AR type guns in this climate. Looks like ammo is more an issue than the guns. How high can 5.56/223 get per 1000?
I dont want to find out!
Unlike some poor souls who bought first, cried about lower quality, then researched afterwards; I've been doing my homework for months before making a choice.
I've wanted a carbine for about five years now, but never saw a need for one. Now, this world is deteriorating and I'm getting paranoid. The last straw was when Nobama was elected President and started his Presidency wanting to shut down Guantanamo.....I knew it was all going to go to crap from there.....Sure enough, look at our situations today....So I decided it was time to load up on the goodies and buy that Black rifle!
I started out wanting a Bushy carbine since my brother-in-law, who is a Tx DPS Sarge, showed me his Bushy M4 duty carbine with an EOTech on top. I really liked it and wanted to go for the new Bushy Gas Piston rifle for about 3 weeks or so. Then, I started seeing how many guys were shying away from piston rifles. It got me thinking and digging more.
Next, thing I knew, I saw a DDM4. It was over at that point for me. It had a 1:7 twist that would handle the heavier bullets(and tracers if I got a wild hair), it was all mil-spec stuff, and it looked badass! BUT, I knew I wanted to go with FDE on many accessories, so some DD Black ones would need to be replaced and sold.
Then this week, along comes the DD XV. Exactly what I wanted to start with for my first AR. Why waste money on something that isn't exactly what you want the first time. Do it right from the beginning.
My plan for my build is already fully mapped out and I don't have to resell any of the parts I wanted to replace anyway.........
1. DD XV M4
2. Samson STAR-CX-EBR with front sight cutout OR a Vltor CASV-EL in FDE
(Prefer the VLtor for the $$ and looks, but can't find one in FDE, In Stock anywhere!!!
3. TangoDown QD Vertical Grip in FDE
4. Magpul MIAD Grip in FDE (with waterproof Battery core insert)
5. EOTech 557 w/ 4x magnifier (Last on my list since I have a spare Burris 3-9x scope to mount for now)
6. Magpul MOE Milspec in FDE
7. (5) 30 round Magpul PMAGs with Maglevel in FDE
8. Daniel Defense Rear Receiver QD Swivel Attachment Point
9. Daniel Defense Rail Mount QD Sling Swivel
10. LaRue Tactical QD Two Point Sling in Tan
11. Inova Tactical Flashlight Weapon Mount
12. Inova Inforce Color LED Combat Flashlight INF-S-W-RGBW (Already bought it for a steal of a deal!!!)
WHEW!!!! Good thing my wife doesn't know what I want or I'd be shot with it!!!:confused::rolleyes::eek:
Once that list is complete I ain't changing. Get good quality from the beginning if you can afford it, even if you stage it little by little.
Because Bushmaster was approved for duty use by my department whereas Colt was not.
For me, back in the day not everyone had opinion on what was a good AR. Internet and computers in general were a pricey thing that "geeks" had so no info from there. No tactical type publications only blued steel and wood type stuff. What to do with cash burning a hole in the pocket of your Levis.... you go down to the ever helpful and well stocked "Gunstore" and have the guy behind the counter advise you...thats how I ended up with a Pre Armalite Eagle EA15. I was lucky, never had a single issue with that one in its original format and in its current iteration M4 clone but did not know any better after that. I inquired a number of LE guys, but sadly they were little help too. I asked a local PD firearms instructor about ARs and he said "Get an 870..". I bought a Oly 20inch PCR rifle after the Eagle and, oh boy, that thing gave me headaches all the time. I learned alot of what can be wrong with AR with that one. After some time,I sold the upper, stripped the lower to the bare metal and tossed it in the safe. Fast foward a few years, Oly lower is rebuilt with Tier 1 parts (geissele trigger, Colt everything else,Vltor Mod stock, Tangodown grip, etc.) upper is Sabre XM4 type...gun runs great but not with out a ton of work on my part along with a few schools on ARs. Point is, now I know alot more and have advised newbies on what to buy and what not to buy because now its not a inexpensive hobby and although there are a ton aftermarket parts for your AR some are garbage that just part you from your bucks. I blame ignorance and a little bit of laziness on folks who get a clunker AR these days. The internet in general and specifically this site, LF, etc has a ton of good useful info on ARs. Currently there are a good amount of tactical type magazines out there that one can get the same or better info than the 'net. For me, I was ignorant, lazy and, this is the bad vice, hasty when I bought that Oly PCR. No one to blame but myself ...live and learn! ;)
Smuckatelli
07-03-09, 08:22
i'd bet $1 right here and now you have no one but yourself to blame for any information beyond how to shoot and clean. no?
The dollar is your's. I harvested a TM while at NBC school when the A2s came out.
I was in the Infantry
nogoodnamesleft
07-03-09, 08:50
Have you ever tried? You might be surprised what they are willing to tell you if you find the right person at the company and work your way past the idiot answering the phone, or representing the company on an internet forum.
A member of TOS recently took it upon himself to discover what steel Armalite was using in their barrels. He damn near got himself banned from there for doing it, but ultimately the lackey that represents Armalite on the forums went and found somebody that actually knows and shared the information. If you look at the current Chart you'll see that they have a different spec in their column, but it's still a spec nonetheless, and the only reason the information is there is because someone hounded them and got the answer.
Speaking of that, in the chart why is it that for those brands marked as 4150 barrel steel they are not listed as being compliant with MIL-B-11595-E? It is one of the three alloys listed in the spec.
Speaking of that, in the chart why is it that for those brands marked as 4150 barrel steel they are not listed as being compliant with MIL-B-1195-E? It is one of the three alloys listed in the spec.
Because 4150 is NOT the same as MIL-B-1195-E!
This is one of the biggest lies told to the AR community.
C4
nogoodnamesleft
07-03-09, 09:38
Because 4150 is NOT the same as MIL-B-1195-E!
This is one of the biggest lies told to the AR community.
C4
Please explain. MIL-B-11595-E lists three alloys, one labeled as 4150.
From https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=37
Table One (listed above) shows three types of chemical compositions and ranges for Mil-Spec 4150 barrel steel as defined by 11595.
ORD4150, ORD4150-Resulferized, and Chrome-Moly-Vanadium (CMV) should not be confused with the generic term of a Chrome Moly barrel. My opinion and the opinion of the US Government (as defined by the Mil-Spec) is that one of the three is not better than the others. They are all they same and are all 11595 (Mil-Spec) barrel steel. In some descriptions used by steel companies I have seen the Grade of CMV further listed as 41V45, which is a bit more descriptive, but probably just add confusion in this context.
Please explain. MIL-B-11595-E lists three alloys, one labeled as 4150.
From https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=37
You are not reading it correctly. None of the metals are defined as JUST 4150.
C4
CaptainDooley
07-03-09, 10:06
Looks like you just glossed right over this line:
This is to say that not all 4150 steels are considered Mil-Spec. In order for it to be Mil-Spec it would need to be a 4150 grade AND it would have to comply with the specifications listed in 11595.
RogerinTPA
07-03-09, 10:06
Please explain. MIL-B-11595-E lists three alloys, one labeled as 4150.
From https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=37
That is a very interesting article indeed. I was under the impression that MIL-B-11595-E was a specific type of barrel steel, and not a category of three different types of barrel steel under that specific category. Thanks for finding that thread.
That is a very interesting article indeed. I was under the impression that MIL-B-11595-E was a specific type of barrel steel, and not a category of three different types of barrel steel under that specific category. Thanks for finding that thread.
4150ORD and CMV are the two most common of the three used. I do not know of any manufacturer that uses the 4150Sulph. version.
C4
Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
MIL-B-11595-E is a specification, not a type of steel. I don't think it's ever been represented as anything else.
Frankly I don't even know why we're getting sidelined with this other than the fact that someone with a history of nothing much more than trolling posts started selectively quoting things out of context and pretending ignorance and expertise depending on the situation as it suits his intentions.
If someone cares that much about it, have a Bushmaster barrel destructive tested, or ask BM directly for the chemical content/makeup of their barrels.
What's all this about Colt being so good? I've been a match pistol shooter for many years and have owned several Colts. They have all been the lousiest quality of any other guns that I've owned. My first Gold Cup shot 6 inch groups at 25 yards. The barrel had to be scrapped and the whole gun gone over before it would shoot to my satisfaction. I would be very goosey to buy another Colt.
Contrary to what many of you think, my Bushy goes bang when I pull the trigger.:p
CaptainDooley
07-03-09, 10:23
Well we got 115 posts in before someone mentioned the quality of Colt's 1911's....
Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
If someone cares that much about it, have a Bushmaster barrel destructive tested, or ask BM directly for the chemical content/makeup of their barrels.
I have tried to get BM (and other companies) to produce the documentation that this rare barrel steel comes with.
No joy.
C4
What's all this about Colt being so good? I've been a match pistol shooter for many years and have owned several Colts. They have all been the lousiest quality of any other guns that I've owned. My first Gold Cup shot 6 inch groups at 25 yards. The barrel had to be scrapped and the whole gun gone over before it would shoot to my satisfaction. I would be very goosey to buy another Colt.
Contrary to what many of you think, my Bushy goes bang when I pull the trigger.:p
Colt does not have a .Mil contract for their pistols. Meaning that their is no TDP to follow, no .Gov inspectors, etc.
The only thing that Colt pistols have in common with Colt AR's is that they both share the name Colt. Nothing more.
On your Shrubmaster, how many times have you pulled the trigger? How long have you owned it? How many carbine schools have you run it through?
C4
nogoodnamesleft
07-03-09, 10:32
If we're going to be pedantic, "4150" is "AISI 4150", a.k.a "ORD4150" with a chemical composition nominally defined as here: http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheet.aspx?matguid=100dc677f93643d288f8d7de39be8f84&ckck=1, which is consistent with MIL-B-11595-E's chemical analysis.
There are other requirements in the spec not related to its chemical composition, but instead to tempering, hardness, etc. If you examine the link provided above, it provides nominal values for the physical properties as well, which match to the spec.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
The 11595 spec also states, 3.1.1, that "a certified ladle analysis of each heat or melt of the elements present." If that is what you're hanging your hat on to be 11595 compliant steel, then nothing you buy commercially can meet the spec every single time because there is no certification.
This gets right back to the whole futility of holding a military spec out the commercial market. Use the spec how you like, just don't be surprised when things don't work out the way you wanted expected them to.
RogerinTPA
07-03-09, 10:33
Contrary to what many of you think, my Bushy goes bang when I pull the trigger.:p
Then you are fortunate and lucky. Manufacturers like BM and others to the left of the chart, are to be considered the "Hoghead Cheese" (Crappy parts, specs, QC and lack of effort, in order to hopefully go "Bang" when you pull the trigger) of the AR World.:p
If we're going to be pedantic, "4150" is "AISI 4150", a.k.a "ORD4150" with a chemical composition nominally defined as here: http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheet.aspx?matguid=100dc677f93643d288f8d7de39be8f84&ckck=1, which is consistent with MIL-B-11595-E's chemical analysis.
There are other requirements in the spec not related to its chemical composition, but instead to tempering, hardness, etc. If you examine the link provided above, it provides nominal values for the physical properties as well, which match to the spec.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
The 11595 spec also states, 3.1.1, that "a certified ladle analysis of each heat or melt of the elements present." If that is what you're hanging your hat on to be 11595 compliant steel, then nothing you buy commercially can meet the spec every single time because there is no certification.
This gets right back to the whole futility of holding a military spec out the commercial market. Use the spec how you like, just don't be surprised when things don't work out the way you wanted expected them to.
Companies can buy the correct steel called out in the 11595 spec. It is very hard to get, but companies that know where to get it, can. Also, this steel DOES come with a certification.
C4
nogoodnamesleft
07-03-09, 10:39
Frankly I don't even know why we're getting sidelined with this other than the fact that someone with a history of nothing much more than trolling posts started selectively quoting things out of context and pretending ignorance and expertise depending on the situation as it suits his intentions.
Allow me to end this now.
I APOLOGIZE FOR SIDELINING, GETTING OFF TRACK, WHATEVER.
FWIW, I wasn't trolling. I read and ask questions looking for a consistent understanding.
I bought my Bushmaster back in '00 while working at Beretta. We had a number of programs going on with them and so I got it at a steal of a price.
I replaced the entire top end with mix & match parts chosen by gotm4 because when it comes to ARs, I pretty much do whatever he tells me to.
Allow me to end this now.
I APOLOGIZE FOR SIDELINING, GETTING OFF TRACK, WHATEVER.
FWIW, I wasn't trolling. I read and ask questions looking for a consistent understanding.
I think the problem might be, that you read a thread on here, have a VERY BASIC understanding of what is being said and then google it and are now the expert.
C4
Use the spec how you like, just don't be surprised when things don't work out the way you wanted expected them to.
This statement seems to imply some kind of secret motive to all of this.
And your entire premise has now gone full circle. If you have a premise at all. You say you're not trolling, so then what is your point? Stop picking at the minutiae and make your point.
you mentioned walking like a duck and talking like a duck, and the same thing applies to trolls. ;)
Colt does not have a .Mil contract for their pistols. Meaning that their is no TDP to follow, no .Gov inspectors, etc.
The only thing that Colt pistols have in common with Colt AR's is that they both share the name Colt. Nothing more.
On your Shrubmaster, how many times have you pulled the trigger? How long have you owned it? How many carbine schools have you run it through?
C4
C'mon guys. The AR was designed to be a combat infantry rifle able to hit a man-sized target at 300 meters. They are cheaply made and have a limited battlefield life. You guys(and me) buy them for a lot more money than they are worth, then spend thousands of dollars "ghetto-izing" them and expect they are going to last a lifetime and produce 1 inch groups at 500 yards. Then, if they don't, you start bad-mouthing them. Let's face it, these are not what I considerer "fine" firearms. They certainly aren't built with the durability of Springfields, Garands, and M-14s.
Well, for a LOT LESS money, you can buy some real nice match rifles (not mil-spec) that will shoot far better and are made from real steel, not aluminum alloy. Let's see, Rem 700s, Win Model 70, Anschutz, Rugers, etc, etc.
I bought my AR for plinking and I have a lot of fun with it. If I ever have to use it for self-defense, I'd be lucky to squeeze off a couple of shots before the situation was over. They are fun to shoot and I enjoy mine. If it fails to meet my satisfaction, then off to the gun shop and trade it for something else.
BTW, what makes everyone think that mil-spec is the gold standard? Compared to what?
CaptainDooley
07-03-09, 11:05
I'll bite... though this is clearly a troll post...
Mil-Spec is not the "gold standard"... it is the MINIMUM STANDARD. So if a rifle can't meet the MINIMUM STANDARD that says quite a bit about the quality of it doesn't it?
As for the rest of your post... well, I won't bite - it's definitely an ignorant troll post.
Yep, mil-spec is the minimum standard and the rifles are contracted to the lowest bidder.
CaptainDooley
07-03-09, 11:14
Yep, mil-spec is the minimum standard and the rifles are contracted to the lowest bidder WHO MEETS THE STANDARD.
Fixed it for you...
C'mon guys. The AR was designed to be a combat infantry rifle able to hit a man-sized target at 300 meters. They are cheaply made and have a limited battlefield life. You guys(and me) buy them for a lot more money than they are worth, then spend thousands of dollars "ghetto-izing" them and expect they are going to last a lifetime and produce 1 inch groups at 500 yards. Then, if they don't, you start bad-mouthing them. Let's face it, these are not what I considerer "fine" firearms. They certainly aren't built with the durability of Springfields, Garands, and M-14s.
First let me say that I love these types of posts! Puts a smile on my face. Now onto the fun!
I am not sure who believes anything you just said (but you). AR's have a service life of about 20k-30K rounds (however long the barrel holds to the .Mil standard for accuracy). I am also not sure who is saying that they shoot 1" at 500yds (not anyone on this forum or in this thread).
Well, for a LOT LESS money, you can buy some real nice match rifles (not mil-spec) that will shoot far better and are made from real steel, not aluminum alloy. Let's see, Rem 700s, Win Model 70, Anschutz, Rugers, etc, etc.
No argument. You can get a Savage 110 for nothing and it will shoot less than 1MOA at 100yds. So if a bolt fits your needs, then go with that. A bolt gun in .223 does not fit me needs though.
I bought my AR for plinking and I have a lot of fun with it. If I ever have to use it for self-defense, I'd be lucky to squeeze off a couple of shots before the situation was over. They are fun to shoot and I enjoy mine. If it fails to meet my satisfaction, then off to the gun shop and trade it for something else.
BTW, what makes everyone think that mil-spec is the gold standard? Compared to what?
Great for you. Most of us here attend training classes with our AR and shoot a lot of rounds per year. We also view the AR as our PRIMARY defensive tool and need to them to be as reliable as possible. This means, buying only the best parts, gear and AR's. "Good enough" works well for dirt shooters, but does not fly around here.
You have a mis-understanding of us (forum members) and the TDP (mil-standard). No one here (that I am aware of) views Mil-Spec, the TDP, as the best. In fact most of us view it is as the ENTRY LEVEL standard for how a FIGHTING weapon is to be built.
The problem is that your BM (for instance) DOES NOT MEET THE BASIC .MIL STANDARD. So if your AR does not come close to what the Govt calls out, what spec is it following??????? The answer is that it is following the spec that puts the MOST money in the manufacturers pocket. This means that only the CHEAPEST parts will do and half assed assembly.
If this works for you, then great, but not for the rest of us.
C4
Yep, mil-spec is the minimum standard and the rifles are contracted to the lowest bidder.
Correct. What does this say about your BM (since it does not meet these MINIMUM standards)????
Things that make you go HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM! ;)
C4
In the interest of full disclosure (and with the understanding that this is M4 Carbine.net), I bought this here Bushy Plain-Jane A2 HBAR purely as a range plinker. I was looking for a full-length A2-type weapon and the only brands available locally that fit the bill were Bushmaster and DPMS.
Not being too AR-smart at the time, I went with the Bushy because it had a chrome-lined barrel and the DPMS didn't. I wasn't sure if Colt/LMT/etc. even made such an old-fashioned configuration (do they?). Quality-wise, I don't know. I suppose Bushy and DPMS are pretty similar in manufacturing/parts quality.
I like the extra heft of the HBAR, but in practical terms I would think that rifle-length weapons are a bit unwieldy for HD.
http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss158/5757_photos/002-2.jpg
Thomas M-4
07-03-09, 14:29
[QUOTE=slapshot;402202]C'mon guys. The AR was designed to be a combat infantry rifle able to hit a man-sized target at 300 meters. They are cheaply made and have a limited battlefield life. You guys(and me) buy them for a lot more money than they are worth, then spend thousands of dollars "ghetto-izing" them and expect they are going to last a lifetime and produce 1 inch groups at 500 yards. Then, if they don't, you start bad-mouthing them. Let's face it, these are not what I considerer "fine" firearms. They certainly aren't built with the durability of Springfields, Garands, and M-14s.
The M-16 /AR-15 was designed and built using aerospace engineering it was designed to be a light weight durable accurate automatic rifle. Does it make a good club when you run out of ammo NO. Unlike Springfields, Garands, and M-14's In some respects the AR-15 is more durable than Springfields, Garands; and M-14's all of those rifles have big problems with wooden stocks in the field thats why most of the surplus rifles have cracked stocks from FIELD USE. Not to mention they can be a pain to repair in the field when they do go wrong [Bent OP-ROD any one].
The Springfield rifle the early ones were made with the incorrect heat treatment on the receiver and is considered un safe to shoot But you state a AR-15 that has not been HPI and MP tested bolt is just as good as one that has meet the standard:confused::rolleyes: The mi-spec is not the gold standard its THE MINIMUM STANDARD. You can build a rifle above the min mil-spec standard [ HFB, better steel in bolts as long as they have been tested of course]
I have to agree with bkb0000 on the reason for buying the "lesser" guns. It is probably ignorance or occasionally a local deal that comes up.
I traded for a Colt H-Bar back in 1988 for High Power shooting. I actually traded a 16" Colt for it because I'd gotten bit by the high power bug. I regret not keeping the shorty but as a relative newlywed remodeling an old house I simply didn't have the cash to do so.
I knew nothing about ARs until stumbling onto this site. I only found it after trading for an M&P15 in 2006. Again, I did no research or talk to anyone knowledgeable prior to getting the M&P. It came down to what the local dealer had on hand. It was between a Bushmaster and the Smith. I went with the Smith based on the fact the Bushy had a heavy barrel and I wanted a lighter gun.
After reading posts on this site for 2 1/2 years I feel like I know a bit more than when I started. Do I regret buying the Smith? Not really. So far it been reliable but I haven't run a ton of ammo through it. However knowing what I know now I likely would have bought a LMT or another Colt instead.
I bought my RRA because the sales man at Impact Arms in Boise steared be away from Bushmaster. For the most part I'm happy with it.
I guess I theoretically have an "Armalite" although the only things that remain are the barrel and lower.
The barrel I'll shoot out and replace with better quality down the road.
The lower, who cares? I think in this instance "parts is parts" is pretty accurate. Mags drop free, pins are tight. What more needs to be said about it?
Chris
My first AR was a M&P15T (when they first came out and had issues) along with a DPMS panther lite. I chose the M&P15 over a Colt 6920 because the guy at the shop said Colt was only a name
and that the S&W with the Troy rail was a better deal. I know S&W is making pretty good ARs right now but mine was a real lemon. It would not accept pmags and double-fired every time.
To make things worse, I had a horrible experience with S&W's customer service which surprised me because I had good experiences with their pistols. I decided the irritation was no longer
worth it and I didn't trust the rifle anymore since it only had a 1 year warranty so I sold it along with the DPMS and started over. I now have 2 Noveske MPLs (Recce and SPR), a KAC SR15E3,
a Noveske Recce VIS w/ KAC lower, a 6940, a 6920 lower, and a BCM lower. Needless to say I am MUCH happier now.
I now have 2 Noveske MPLs (Recce and SPR), a KAC SR15E3,
a Noveske Recce VIS w/ KAC lower, a 6940, a 6920 lower, and a BCM lower. Needless to say I am MUCH happier now.
wow... you really took that lesson to heart, didnt you?
I just recently found this site after putting my first AR together. I admit I knew nothing about AR's much less the "quality brands" out there. I agree that quality is a must and now that I have assembled my first AR, I can concentrate on building another. I am actually somehwhat ashamed to list my parts as I know I'll get lit up by the connoisseurs. After signing up here, I didn't even want to post my build (though it is well documented and photographed).
I will say that I did take a lot of gun shop advice (bad idea) who told me CMMG, DPMS and Bushmaster were the best brands. Yeah, Im impressionable. I was also affected by the panic buy bug. I also was buying whatever I could afford and get my hands on. Could I have done more research? Sure. Could I have gotten on the forums and become a brand nazi, definately. Admittedly, I should have but I didnt. What did I lose out on? $800.00 big deal. I got a rifle that functions, that I can mod and make better or I can beat the tar out of it and build another high quality rifle that will make all drool when I pull it out of the case.
I wouldnt trade my first build for anything as when I set out to do it, I set out to do it for the experience. I am darned happy that I didnt do this with expensive parts as I would have hated to mess something up and then oh there goes $500 (even though I was fortunate to get it right the first time). I am also darned happy to have found these forums as I have learned alot already and this whole thing is a learning curve.
CarlosDJackal
07-03-09, 19:35
I bought my first AR, an SGW (Oly) back in 1992 because it was all I could afford. I have since converted it to a Carbine and it's now a safe queen.
RancidSumo
07-03-09, 21:57
I have had one bad experience with poorly researched firearm purchases and that was plenty for me. I bought a Taurus 24/7 and am selling it on Monday (when I go to pick up my first AR15) So when I bought an AR I did a fair amount of research and was about to go with a S&W before Texpatriate pointed me towards BCM but my brother didn't go that route. He bought a Bushmaster Varmiter last summer and despite the bad reviews they get on here we have had no problems. The round count isn't real high (about 500-600 rounds in the last year) but during those rounds the only problem we have had is that it doesn't like Wolf MC. I don't see any problem with the majority of AR manufacturers. I have used that rifle from a bench at the range to playing in the mud and dirt out PD hunting. As far as I can see, if the rifle you are looking at has the features you want (in my brother's case, a longer barrel and a free float handguard with a rail for a scope) then go for it. If it turns out that it doesn't work the way you wanted then pay the extra $150 for a new BCG and move on. Even after that you can get a Bushy or a DPMS running for a lot less than a Colt.
littleshoe
07-03-09, 22:39
My goal for mycollection is to have an example of every variant of US Military Firearms: 1903, M1, M1 Carbine, M1A, M16, M4. I have got examples of most of the older ones so now it was time for me to turn to the newer stuff. Being deployed caused a whole new wrinkle for me, since figuring out what was good was tough especially when Gunshop dealers arent willing to take the time to give you info unless they you are there with money in your pocket willing to buy. I luckly missed out on a lot of the panicked buying and now with the economy it has been a good time for me to buy.
I am on another forum which has a section on firearms in which I am commened on what I wanted and One of the other members recommended a Daniel Defense M4. He also suggested getting on other gun forums to do research. I ended up getting some good recommendations and doing alot of reading. I also talked with some prior SF guys I have worked about what their recommendations were. Been wary of bying off of gunbroker (although I got my Sig Navy on there since it was a very well priced package deal) prefering instead to haunt the forum market places looking for new or reasonably new weapons for good prices.
My first AR I bought was a Bushmaster Target Rifle. I got it because it was new in the box, in the A2 Configuration, cheaper than RRA variant without the wait and from a dealer in the state. The next one was an Noveske N4, more expensive but still too good of a deal to pass up (just like my Kimber custom 45) for a 14.5 barreled carbine. Do I need the top of the line Carbine like the operators have, no but I have no problems paying for quality.
CryingWolf
07-04-09, 02:57
I just recently found this site after putting my first AR together. I admit I knew nothing about AR's much less the "quality brands" out there. I agree that quality is a must and now that I have assembled my first AR, I can concentrate on building another. I am actually somehwhat ashamed to list my parts as I know I'll get lit up by the connoisseurs. After signing up here, I didn't even want to post my build (though it is well documented and photographed).
I wouldn't mind seeing your build, especially if you took pictures during the build. I am sure I am not the only one.
I bought a S&W over the Colt at the height of the recent insanity simply because it wasn't marked "for law enforcement/military/export only." on the lower. As I see it, a new ban is likely and as I'm neither a LEO or active Military I might find it hard to explain why i have a rifle that's clearly marked as being restricted for a civilian to own. I know the history here, I just don't want to deal with the hassle of trying to educate local PD, Judiciary or Jury should I ever have to use it for SD after the new ban goes live.
I think your reading too much into the marking. Could get the same reaction with the S&W especially if it has a big M&P on it and they ask what does that mean.
That issue has been discussed here and other places more than enough.
2731
Following that same logic I hope that you also don't have any magazines marked like that either. Even if a ban comes there are probably millions of magazines and thousands upon thousands of rifles out there. The whole thing is a red herring.
I bought a S&W over the Colt at the height of the recent insanity simply because it wasn't marked "for law enforcement/military/export only." on the lower. As I see it, a new ban is likely and as I'm neither a LEO or active Military I might find it hard to explain why i have a rifle that's clearly marked as being restricted for a civilian to own. I know the history here, I just don't want to deal with the hassle of trying to educate local PD, Judiciary or Jury should I ever have to use it for SD after the new ban goes live.
I think your reading too much into the marking. Could get the same reaction with the S&W especially if it has a big M&P on it and they ask what does that mean.
I figured someone would pop in with that. I see the M&P logo as just that, a logo. Even if they asked about it, it is still not as restrictive or specific as the Colt marking.
The OP was asking why we bought less than Teir 1...this is my reason, be my judgement good or bad. ;)
Following that same logic I hope that you also don't have any magazines marked like that either. Even if a ban comes there are probably millions of magazines and thousands upon thousands of rifles out there.
Nope, I don't. I won't buy them. Can't knock me for consistancy.
My building/buying spree started about the beginning of the feeding frenzy. I had wanted an AR for a while but just never got around to it. Originally, I wanted a Bushmaster since they're located here in Maine. However, I decided to build and I bought a Stag lower and a Stag LPK. That was about a half hour of fun. I decided to buy a Stag upper so as to keep it close to a factory built Stag and they had the shortest lead time...so I thought. It wound up being six months. :mad:
Eventually I'll upgrade. I've been eyeing LWRC & LMT uppers on GunBroker. I'm torn about selling my lower. It's got a pretty good trigger and I put it together myself. Also, from what I've read here, a lower is a lower...for the most part anyway. Thank god the AR craze is dying down.
BTW, what is lesser, anything under Colt or home built to equal Colt?
I'm torn about selling my lower. It's got a pretty good trigger and I put it together myself. Also, from what I've read here, a lower is a lower...for the most part anyway. Thank god the AR craze is dying down.
stag LPKs and receivers are good to go.. absolutely no reason to ditch the lower, especially if you really like the trig. OM trigs arent always that great.
I"for law enforcement/military/export only." .
At the gun store yesterday, I noticed a Bushmaster with the Restricted MIL/GOV/LE mark on it. I have seen many Bushmasters before and I have never noted this rollmark on a BM. I picked it up to make sure I wasn't seeing things, and lo and behold it was a BM with the "Restricted" roll mark.
Has anyone else seen this? Is this something new that BM is going to do from now on?
I bought a Bushmaster A2 post ban model back in like 94 I think it was, while I was still in CA. I traded a Mini14 for it, that was reliable but very inaccurate. Anyway they were getting ready to ban even the post bans in the state and I thought I'd quickly get another AR15. I didn't know too much about AR's back then, although my first AR was a Colt HBAR A2 slab side. Anyway that Bushmaster short stroked and I sent it back to Bushmaster to fix. It came back and I was able to shoot 200 rounds through it without a problem. But then other things intervened and it was pretty much stored until 4 years ago. Well by this time I knew a little more about AR's, and when I dusted it off I noticed the following pearls:
- a front sight base that was off center..either that or the barrel is overtorqued
- unstaked carrier key
- unstaked castle nut
Then to add insult to injury I found the list a few years ago and noticed:
- the fact that it is a Bushmaster :)
Anyway, now I'm thinking of selling the upper for cheap and just build a quality parts M4 or A4 upper for it.
At the gun store yesterday, I noticed a Bushmaster with the Restricted MIL/GOV/LE mark on it. I have seen many Bushmasters before and I have never noted this rollmark on a BM. I picked it up to make sure I wasn't seeing things, and lo and behold it was a BM with the "Restricted" roll mark.
Has anyone else seen this? Is this something new that BM is going to do from now on?
no, but given the fact that LMT lowers with LEO marking seem to sell for MORE MONEY, i wouldnt be surprised if other manufacturers started offering it as an "option."
****in gay if you ask me.
RogerinTPA
07-04-09, 19:52
no, but given the fact that LMT lowers with LEO marking seem to sell for MORE MONEY, i wouldnt be surprised if other manufacturers started offering it as an "option."
****in gay if you ask me.
POSER GAY if you ask me.:p
At the gun store yesterday, I noticed a Bushmaster with the Restricted MIL/GOV/LE mark on it. I have seen many Bushmasters before and I have never noted this rollmark on a BM. I picked it up to make sure I wasn't seeing things, and lo and behold it was a BM with the "Restricted" roll mark.
Has anyone else seen this? Is this something new that BM is going to do from now on?
It may have been one of their factory SBRs or maybe it was an export model that ended up being sold commercially.
CryingWolf
07-04-09, 21:58
no, but given the fact that LMT lowers with LEO marking seem to sell for MORE MONEY, i wouldnt be surprised if other manufacturers started offering it as an "option."
****in gay if you ask me.
Agreed, "add for LE or Mil users only and we can charge them an extra $50 bucks"
Geesh! You guys make it sound like it's some awful gimmick developed by the marketing people! There are no gimmicks in the firearm industry! It costs money to put those roll marks on the receiver! I'd bet $50 barely covers the costs!
FYI, I'm being facetious. :rolleyes: :p ;)
kaiservontexas
07-05-09, 00:50
I bought my first AR-15 at Academy back in 06. I got the A2M4. I did a quick scan of the net about the rifle, which is why I went with it. Disinfo is prolific out there in netland. Now to be honest my A2M4 functions bad magazines (2 of them) gave me some grief. I am curious about the rear sight as zeroing it is always fun. It shifts, and I never figured out if that was normal. It is a fun range rifle that will be upgraded. My second AR-15 I built: Spike's Tactical lower with INFIDEL artwork, Stag LPK, LMT tube/castle nut, Magpul CTR stock/MIAD grip, LaRue DMR-16 upper, LaRue/Troy rear sight. I find it fun putting them together, which is why I went that route.
I bought my first AR-15 at Academy back in 06. I got the A2M4. I did a quick scan of the net about the rifle, which is why I went with it. Disinfo is prolific out there in netland. Now to be honest my A2M4 functions bad magazines (2 of them) gave me some grief. I am curious about the rear sight as zeroing it is always fun. It shifts, and I never figured out if that was normal. It is a fun range rifle that will be upgraded. My second AR-15 I built: Spike's Tactical lower with INFIDEL artwork, Stag LPK, LMT tube/castle nut, Magpul CTR stock/MIAD grip, LaRue DMR-16 upper, LaRue/Troy rear sight. I find it fun putting them together, which is why I went that route.
hmm.. its unlikely, but it's possible your barrel is loose... that would explain a wandering POI. more likely, your rear sight is ****ed up... replacing with a quality kit will most likely end that issue.
building is a lot of fun, and it's the only way i go. I've actually NEVER purchased a complete rifle, and until I found LMT, i'd never even purchased a complete upper or lower. I've still never used even an LMT as-is- at the very least, LMT lowers need armalite ambi selectors added, ergo's replaced with battlegrips, and the SOPMODs rattle-canned, if i can't find one in FDE to begin with. uppers, of course, need rails and permed muzzle devices- i dont do 16" barrels.
i've also been meaning to mention something else in this thread- we keep talking about, and using Colt as the standard, while I don't even LIKE colt. surely, they produce a perfectly acceptable weapon- but aside from issued weapons i've never "owned" a colt, and wont, because i don't care for them as a company. things like stupid over-sized pins, sear blocks, LEO markings, an apparent distaste for non-mil, non-LEOs using their weapons, and shitty customer service (hearsay- i've heard CS is shitty from people who've dealt with them), have all left me pretty anti-colt.
when we're comparing weapons to colt, we're actually comparing weapons to the TDP- colt just happens to be the gold standard for TDP compliance. nobody here is saying you NEED to own a colt, or that colt is the "best," or that owning a colt makes you some kind of tactical ninja. we're also not saying you're worthless for owning a sub-TDP gun...
there are a lot of really good manufacturers out there- LMT, KAC, NRW, Colt, BCM, Sabre, CMMG (people will argue this, but you can easily order a professional-grade weapon from them, if you know what to ask for), and if you shop around, you can get one of these for a good price any day of the week. well, not NRW or KAC- thems ****in expensive no matter where you go. and, as has already been stated a few times, you can bring other lesser weapons closer to TDP by upgrading. unfortunately, you can't upgrade steel grade and barrel quality, so this really should be a corrective option, rather than a first try.
kaiservontexas
07-05-09, 11:43
hmm.. its unlikely, but it's possible your barrel is loose... that would explain a wandering POI. more likely, your rear sight is ****ed up... replacing with a quality kit will most likely end that issue.
I am voting that my rear sight is borked up.
http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww256/crusaderwyn/Projekt%20AR/BMRearSight.jpg
I read once I think on TOS that this is normal. I somehow doubt that fact, but I am only slightly better then a noob in the knowledge department of AR-15 rifles. I had not thought about it until this thread. Sorry if this is a hijack as I just want to respond to bkb0000 since it would probably clarify my problem.
CryingWolf
07-05-09, 12:40
WTF there ain't nothing normal about that!!! Even if it shoots straight I would still want to fix or replace that.
A2 rearsights generally have a little cant to them, but that seems a little extreme. I think I would get a flat top upper and get a rear BUIS.
kaiservontexas
07-05-09, 13:03
What is the fix? I have never worked on a upper.
A new upper is out of the question. I will just end up getting a new rifle, and that is not in the finances right now. I am just the sort to make lemonade out of lemons.
At this point, so as not to hijack, send me PM please, or should I just start a thread where we can bash Bushmaster together? :D
kvt,
You can either buy a new sight and see what happens or an upper receiver. If you haven't worked on a rear sight assy before theu can be a PITA. An M4 flat top upper from BCM will cost you about 109.95. Then you simply add your barrel and other stuff and you are done.
What is the fix? I have never worked on a upper.
A new upper is out of the question. I will just end up getting a new rifle, and that is not in the finances right now. I am just the sort to make lemonade out of lemons.
At this point, so as not to hijack, send me PM please, or should I just start a thread where we can bash Bushmaster together? :D
CryingWolf
07-05-09, 13:11
It would drive me crazy. Maybe you could shim it or something to get rid of the cant a little?
I understand that a battle rifle is just a tool, I still like to see better fit and finish on any firearm I purchase.
kaiservontexas
07-05-09, 13:20
kvt,
You can either buy a new sight and see what happens or an upper receiver. If you haven't worked on a rear sight assy before theu can be a PITA. An M4 flat top upper from BCM will cost you about 109.95. Then you simply add your barrel and other stuff and you are done.
I would need the tools for setting up the upper (barrel vise, etc), which is why I skipped building an upper when I built up my ST lower. I like learning even if it a PITA.
CryingWolf
07-05-09, 14:15
I would need the tools for setting up the upper (barrel vise, etc), which is why I skipped building an upper when I built up my ST lower. I like learning even if it a PITA.
Maybe you can find someone around you or in your area to help? I have a buddy to share tool expenses needed for AR15 work. He set me up with a good deal on a S&W stripped lower. I think he did this so I would start to think about building an AR, and he can build on his at the same time. I go back and forth from purchasing a complete upper or building one from scratch.
I'm interested to hear short stories of why people chose to buy lesser-quality weapons- bush, DPMS, oly, RRA, etc..
there's a lot of people come around and post something to the effect of "i bought this DPMS last month, signed up here, and learned that it's not the greatest of choices, so i'm _________ (getting rid of it, fixing it up, etc)..."
this isn't at all a ripfest on you or your weapon. i'm just interested to know WHY you chose the weapon that you did, before you knew- what research did you do? how available was information? did you have problems finding information? did you get recommendations from people? what web-sources did you investigate? books that you read? etc.
back when i first started out in the AR world, information was nill. there were a few books out, but they focused on function, shooting, cleaning, stripping, etc- there wasn't really anything out with great technical information. furthermore, there wasn't 1/20th of the selection to chose from- more often than not, if you couldn't afford/could find colt parts, you were left with no-name gunshow parts or Quality Parts Inc (bushmaster) parts- which were actually, next to colt, the only manufacturer with a name that put any degree of quality control into their processes. My first build was a ban-compliant attempt at a carbine, and it was about 50% bushmaster, with a few colt parts and the rest were unknown origin. if i were to have purchased a complete gun, it would have been an Armalite or Bushmaster, I'm sure. fortunately, i did get a little inside information from a gunsmith i'd met at a gun show, and assembled something pretty decent. i'm just curious as to how much has changed, what the word is on the streetz, etc. so share your story, por favor.
I don't have any reason to believe my Bushies are "lower quality weapons." And I've had them over ten years. A lot of the "quality-tier" discussion is internet koolaid.
CaptainDooley
07-05-09, 15:56
So... you're new here? Didn't even read this whole thread, huh?
I don't have any reason to believe my Bushies are "lower quality weapons." And I've had them over ten years. A lot of the "quality-tier" discussion is internet koolaid.
then why are you posting?
Captain D,
Some people just don't get it. It's not even worth trying to point him in the right direction.
kaiservontexas
07-05-09, 16:20
Captain D,
Some people just don't get it. It's not even worth trying to point him in the right direction.
Especially after my post! LMFAO
So... you're new here? Didn't even read this whole thread, huh?
You slay me. He joined in sept of 08 - you joined in Feb of 09 - who's the noob?
then why are you posting?
Again, I don't get what your point is to this thread.
You are basically saying -- so, you screwed up and bought an inferior AR and now that you joined this site and we all are telling you that your AR is a POS what are you going to do to fix it.
Like I tried to tell you earlier in the thread - not everyone bought an inferior AR to defend life and limb. When I told you that, I was basically told that we don't want to hear about your beer can shooting junker. But, that is exactly why I bought my inferior AR. But for some reason, that answer wasn't good enough.
Then you scolded us for taking your thread off topic. After that, many more posters with high post counts and long time memberships took the thread completely off topic but yet you said nothing about them going off topic.
It seems to me that even after people have told you why, that some how you are still looking for people to say how stupid they were and now that they are on this site they saw the errors of their ways and are going to junk that inferior AR they bought and start over - even if they've owned it for 10 years without any problems.
KVT,
I was referring to the Uni-Viber. He is another one that is convinced his Bushamster is as good as... and it may well be for his purposes.
Especially after my post! LMFAO
bkb,
Now you know why I said what I did. These threads always draw out those who will refuse to believe there is anything bad about their purchase and that their particular weapon is as good as the "tier 1" brands.
Texpatriate
07-05-09, 16:54
I've been a long time member on some pretty good ''general firearms'' forums that do great job with 2nd Ammendment and general firearms discussion, but they're not that great always with specialized platform specific knowledge. Once in a while some one will bring up some valuable info specific to the AR-15 platform, but there's a lot more bad and so-so info on those boards to sift through to find the good. As a result, there's a lot of ''just buy a Rock River, it's what the DEA uses'', ''Bushmaster is the best you can get, I'm a cop and that's what we use'', and '''parts is parts, just build one with what you can find'' type of comments out there. Even arfcom has a lot of those kinds of posts.
Most of the books are pretty worthless too. The Patrick Sweeney books are pretty much two whole volumes of ''yeah, we test drove these 45 brands of AR's, and they were all great. We were plesantly surprised by how great Vulcan's product performed''.
Unless you are fortunate to find this site or a handfull of others dedicated to the M4, how else are you supposed to discern the good info from the bad?
I just talked a guy on The Highroad into buying a BCM upper & lower & DD BCG from Grant at G&R Tactical after he originally asked ''Which AR should I buy: DPMS, Bushmaster, or S&W?'' I replied that of the 3, I'd go with S&W, but considering that his local dealers were asking $1,400 for a no frills M&P-15, he could find a 6920 for less than that, or a BCM from Grant for a whole lot less. That's what he ended up doing. I freely confess to merely parotting the knowledge of those with more knowledge & experience than me on this site.
kaiservontexas
07-05-09, 17:03
KVT,
I was referring to the Uni-Viber. He is another one that is convinced his Bushamster is as good as... and it may well be for his purposes.
I knew that, but I was referring to the fact my post was before that showing an obvious manufacturers fault.
Oh i started my own thread on it. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33797
I am the new owner of a Bushmaster optics ready carbine. I most likely would not have purchased a Bushmaster if i had been a member of this site before my purchase. Most of my friends that are "gun people" said that Bushmasters are of pretty good quality. I also figured that because the price was on par with higher end rifles that the quality was there. Most of my information I obtained about Bushmaster was through the internet. I didnt do much in depth reading, just some general google searches and reading of some reviews. Again, I kinda wish I had discovered this website during my pre-purchase research. Am I upset that I bought a Bushmaster? No, not really. The reason I bought my carbine locally, (for a higher price than the net), was because my local gun store was willing to let me pay for it over time in small installments.(layaway) I know its kinda ghetto but, hey, its the only way I could afford the rifle, so I am happy with what I've got. I also enjoy tinkering and upgrading my weapons, so I'm not too bummed that I will need to replace some components to put it on par with some of the higher quality rifles.
I bought the same rifle and so far, happy with it. I think there are too many outhouse opinions on this forum regarding many manufacturers products. Why would any decent manufacturer jeopardize the reputation of his company and leave himself open for huge lawsuits by selling sub-standard products? I read here that a lot of guys put together parts guns too and I question the wisdom of that. If I were really wanting to buy a top quality piece from a known source, I would buy a Les Baer. Their reputation is well known amongst the gun community, but you have to pony up more than $3K. Personally, I have never heard of these no-name brands mentioned in this forum. I would be highly suspect.
Enjoy your Bushy.
Texpatriate,
Please tell us what the total cost of the upper lower and BCG was if you don't mind.
I've been a long time member on some pretty good ''general firearms'' forums that do great job with 2nd Ammendment and general firearms discussion, but they're not that great always with specialized platform specific knowledge. Once in a while some one will bring up some valuable info specific to the AR-15 platform, but there's a lot more bad and so-so info on those boards to sift through to find the good. As a result, there's a lot of ''just buy a Rock River, it's what the DEA uses'', ''Bushmaster is the best you can get, I'm a cop and that's what we use'', and '''parts is parts, just build one with what you can find'' type of comments out there. Even arfcom has a lot of those kinds of posts.
Most of the books are pretty worthless too. The Patrick Sweeney books are pretty much two whole volumes of ''yeah, we test drove these 45 brands of AR's, and they were all great. We were plesantly surprised by how great Vulcan's product performed''.
Unless you are fortunate to find this site or a handfull of others dedicated to the M4, how else are you supposed to discern the good info from the bad?
I just talked a guy on The Highroad into buying a BCM upper & lower & DD BCG from Grant at G&R Tactical after he originally asked ''Which AR should I buy: DPMS, Bushmaster, or S&W?'' I replied that of the 3, I'd go with S&W, but considering that his local dealers were asking $1,400 for a no frills M&P-15, he could find a 6920 for less than that, or a BCM from Grant for a whole lot less. That's what he ended up doing. I freely confess to merely parotting the knowledge of those with more knowledge & experience than me on this site.
kaiservontexas
07-05-09, 17:10
I bought the same rifle and so far, happy with it. I think there are too many outhouse opinions on this forum regarding many manufacturers products. Why would any decent manufacturer jeopardize the reputation of his company and leave himself open for huge lawsuits by selling sub-standard products? I read here that a lot of guys put together parts guns too and I question the wisdom of that. If I were really wanting to buy a top quality piece from a known source, I would buy a Les Baer.
Enjoy your Bushy.
I do not agree. They turn out what they turn out because people will buy it. With that logic Century Arms International would be out of business. How many borked up WASR-10 rifles have they put out? Heck my firing pin failed first time out on the range with my WASR-10 (2008 model looks real nice and tight) this past Wednesday. Yet CAI is still in business. When I owned a Ruger MKIII 22/45 and it had problems I sent it to Ruger. They sent it back. It failed again. On the phone with them the lady joked with me that yeah they are not as good as the old MK I and II. I sold the pistol for 50 to a friend who wanted something to tinker with. It still does not operate right after it has been completely taken apart 3 times. Plenty of people put out crap in many industries across the board now a days. On the bright side I am getting better at fixing things, which amuses me. But if I really wanted a project I would go with parts or just buy an old Turkish Mauser in need of love.
Parabellum9x19mm
07-05-09, 17:11
I bought the same rifle and so far, happy with it. I think there are too many outhouse opinions on this forum regarding many manufacturers products. Why would any decent manufacturer jeopardize the reputation of his company and leave himself open for huge lawsuits by selling sub-standard products? I read here that a lot of guys put together parts guns too and I question the wisdom of that. If I were really wanting to buy a top quality piece from a known source, I would buy a Les Baer. Their reputation is well known amongst the gun community, but you have to pony up more than $3K. Personally, I have never heard of these no-name brands mentioned in this forum. I would be highly suspect.
Enjoy your Bushy.
sorry, but Les Baer is a no-name brand in the AR world. this isn't 1911forum.
which "no name brands"are you referring to? (probably KAC, Noveske, BCM, Daniels Defense, right?)
slapshot,
Do you mean the same Les Baer that installs the castle nut backwards on their carbines based upon their extensive testing?
Why did Bushmaster send us weapons that had insufficent stakings on the bolt carrier, lower receiver extension, incorrect extractor springs, and tight chambers knowing that they were going to Iraq to be used for PSD and static security?
Want to take a guess or do I need to tell you the answer?
I bought the same rifle and so far, happy with it. I think there are too many outhouse opinions on this forum regarding many manufacturers products. Why would any decent manufacturer jeopardize the reputation of his company and leave himself open for huge lawsuits by selling sub-standard products? I read here that a lot of guys put together parts guns too and I question the wisdom of that. If I were really wanting to buy a top quality piece from a known source, I would buy a Les Baer. Their reputation is well known amongst the gun community, but you have to pony up more than $3K. Personally, I have never heard of these no-name brands mentioned in this forum. I would be highly suspect.
Enjoy your Bushy.
CaptainDooley
07-05-09, 17:30
You slay me. He joined in sept of 08 - you joined in Feb of 09 - who's the noob?
n00b:
A inexperienced and/or ignorant or unskilled person.
Not me - at least I figured out how to read a simple chart, the explanation that goes with it, and who the hell to listen to around here.
RogerinTPA
07-05-09, 17:31
I bought the same rifle and so far, happy with it. I think there are too many outhouse opinions on this forum regarding many manufacturers products. Why would any decent manufacturer jeopardize the reputation of his company and leave himself open for huge lawsuits by selling sub-standard products?
Expediency for one. Playing on the ignorance of the general population is another. The fact that the bottom tier manufacturers conduct false and misleading advertising and then labeling said product, is enough to have a class action lawsuit of epic proportions, in my opinion, but the General Population is too fooled into believing that all ARs are the same. I wonder what would happen if those people who bought those bottom tiered ARs, started sending them back in droves, insisting that they put in a true 5.56 chamber, a 1/7 barrel instead of a 1/9 marked as a 1/7, properly staked castle nut and gas key. They'd be forced to raise there level of quality.
I read here that a lot of guys put together parts guns too and I question the wisdom of that. If I were really wanting to buy a top quality piece from a known source, I would buy a Les Baer. Their reputation is well known amongst the gun community, but you have to pony up more than $3K. Personally, I have never heard of these no-name brands mentioned in this forum. I would be highly suspect.
More reading of all of the "tacked" discussions in the technical forum and checking out the "chart" with all the related explanations, would cure that lack of knowledge you got going on.
Thomas M-4
07-05-09, 17:36
I bought the same rifle and so far, happy with it. I think there are too many outhouse opinions on this forum regarding many manufacturers products. Why would any decent manufacturer jeopardize the reputation of his company and leave himself open for huge lawsuits by selling sub-standard products? I read here that a lot of guys put together parts guns too and I question the wisdom of that. If I were really wanting to buy a top quality piece from a known source, I would buy a Les Baer. Their reputation is well known amongst the gun community, but you have to pony up more than $3K. Personally, I have never heard of these no-name brands mentioned in this forum. I would be highly suspect.
Enjoy your Bushy.
Most AR-15 manufactures know that the general shooting public does not put a high round count on there firearms and for the most part they build the guns as such. They know when you go in a gun dealer to buy one most people look at the fit and finish and the price what else does the buyer have to compare with?Can you trust the sells man behind the counter :rolleyes: he is there just to sell guns for his boss. Does everyone need a tier 1 built rifle ...no What are the benefits of having a tier1 rifle mostly durability and reliability and the knowledge that you have a far lesser chance of getting a lemon.Its not about accuracy you look at many high power competitors and they run DPMS,Bushmaster, RRA and so on. But if you take a serious carbine class and the instructor splits up the group between tier1 manufactured rifles and lesser brands I am sorry but that's got to tell you something. By the way Les Baer cant even put the buffer tube nut on correctly it is backwards and is unstaked what does that tell you?
mskdgunman
07-05-09, 17:37
My first was a Colt Sporter CAR-15 I bought back in '88 while in Jax. I was pretty young at the time (probably 22) and had always wanted an AR platform. I recognized the Colt name and felt that it was a decent rifle. Other than that, there was no research or anything else involved in the choice. I just assumed that Colt's were the best. Looking back, I'm not sure if I was even aware of any other companies making AR's at that time. They were probably there but I never heard of them.
That rifle is still with me today as an SBR and my duty rifle. Now it sports a Bushmaster M-4 flat top but even as somewhat of a mutt, it has never given me a minutes problem during numerous carbine/rife classes and qualifications. As it stands now, I've got two Colts, two Bushmasters and an MGI. The verdict is still out on the MGI as it's a work in progress but the others have all served my purposes just fine.
rharris,
You make a good point and valid observation. If people would send crap back to Oly, Bushmaster, DPMS, etc... or quit buying it all together they would have to take action eventually. The problem is that people won't do it.
When the recent decision was made to purchase some DPMS carbines I told the powers to be exactly what I though even though they didn't want to necessarily hear it. Had I not done so I would have been negligent in my duties as far as I am concerned. I am just glad that they ultimately changed their minds.
Expediency for one. Playing on the ignorance of the general population is another. The fact that the bottom tier manufacturers conduct false and misleading advertising and then labeling said product, is enough to have a class action lawsuit of epic proportions, in my opinion, but the General Population is too fooled into believing that all ARs are the same. I wonder what would happen if those people who bought those bottom tiered ARs, started sending them back in droves, insisting that they put in a true 5.56 chamber, a 1/7 barrel instead of a 1/9 marked as a 1/7, properly staked castle nut and gas key. They'd be forced to raise there level of quality.
More reading of all of the "tacked" discussions in the technical forum and checking out the "chart" with all the related explanations, would cure that lack of knowledge you got going on.
You slay me. He joined in sept of 08 - you joined in Feb of 09 - who's the noob?
Again, I don't get what your point is to this thread.
You are basically saying -- so, you screwed up and bought an inferior AR and now that you joined this site and we all are telling you that your AR is a POS what are you going to do to fix it.
Like I tried to tell you earlier in the thread - not everyone bought an inferior AR to defend life and limb. When I told you that, I was basically told that we don't want to hear about your beer can shooting junker. But, that is exactly why I bought my inferior AR. But for some reason, that answer wasn't good enough.
Then you scolded us for taking your thread off topic. After that, many more posters with high post counts and long time memberships took the thread completely off topic but yet you said nothing about them going off topic.
It seems to me that even after people have told you why, that some how you are still looking for people to say how stupid they were and now that they are on this site they saw the errors of their ways and are going to junk that inferior AR they bought and start over - even if they've owned it for 10 years without any problems.
the questions was: if you happen to regret your purchase, tell us about the process by which you selected that purchase.
i also said, in the original post, that this thread was not to be a flamefest on lower quality guns or their owners.
if you weren't posting to say "i bought a DBOPOS, i later learned why they aren't very good guns... but here's how i arrived at my purchase:" then you werent answering the question.
the comments about "fightin guns," while surrendering to the futility of trying to moderate my own thread, were intended to simply shed light on why a lot of people around here have strong opinions about the platform- it was not a ruling on what can be posted, it was me arguing my point. you've misunderstood the progression of the thread.
as far as me not trying to moderate senior members- the volume of people contributing to the derailment was such that i gave up. i think fellow senior members, if they read many of my posts, know i have no problem being a dick at any point if necessary, and to anyone. my infraction record is, i suspect, longer than most around here.
i really don't care what guns people buy- if i happen to get ahold of someone about to buy a POS, i'll do my best to educate them into spending their money better, but i don't think anyone is a second class citizen for buying and believing in their Oly. if you don't have the vast experience of most of the senior members here, you can't really be blamed for not knowing all this shit. furthermore, i'm on record here, numerous times, suggesting that people DO buy POS guns if the situation is such that it's appropriate for that person. there are people here who will say thing to the effect that all guns in your safe should be considered fighting guns, and to even own a POS is wrong- and there's nothing wrong with maintaining that philosophy, but i disagree. if i found a complete Oly for an incredibly good deal, i'd probably buy it, if only just to abuse the shit out of it/**** off with it/let my kids bang it around, try to break it, etc.
it is a little frustrating when people go so far as to deny facts. see my next post.
i hope i've been perfectly clear- just trying to get you, and everyone else, on the same page so we can stop wasting effort on, essentially, miscommunications.
kaiservontexas
07-05-09, 18:21
the questions was: if you happen to regret your purchase, tell us about the process by which you selected that purchase.
i also said, in the original post, that this thread was not to be a flamefest on lower quality guns or their owners.
if you weren't posting to say "i bought a DBOPOS, i later learned why they aren't very good guns... but here's how i arrived at my purchase:" then you werent answering the question.
the comments about "fightin guns," while surrendering to the futility of trying to moderate my own thread, were intended to simply shed light on why a lot of people around here have strong opinions about the platform- it was not a ruling on what can be posted, it was me arguing my point. you've misunderstood the progression of the thread.
as far as me not trying to moderate senior members- the volume of people contributing to the derailment was such that i gave up. i think fellow senior members, if they read many of my posts, know i have no problem being a dick at any point if necessary, and to anyone. my infraction record is, i suspect, longer than most around here.
i really don't care what guns people buy- if i happen to get ahold of someone about to buy a POS, i'll do my best to educate them into spending their money better, but i don't think anyone is a second class citizen for buying and believing in their Oly. if you don't have the vast experience of most of the senior members here, you can't really be blamed for not knowing all this shit. furthermore, i'm on record here, numerous times, suggesting that people DO buy POS guns if the situation is such that it's appropriate for that person. there are people here who will say thing to the effect that all guns in your safe should be considered fighting guns, and to even own a POS is wrong- and there's nothing wrong with maintaining that philosophy, but i disagree. if i found a complete Oly for an incredibly good deal, i'd probably buy it, if only just to abuse the shit out of it/**** off with it/let my kids bang it around, try to break it, etc.
it is a little frustrating when people go so far as to deny facts. see my next post.
i hope i've been perfectly clear- just trying to get you, and everyone else, on the same page so we can stop wasting effort on, essentially, miscommunications.
I apologize.
I bought the same rifle and so far, happy with it. I think there are too many outhouse opinions on this forum regarding many manufacturers products. Why would any decent manufacturer jeopardize the reputation of his company and leave himself open for huge lawsuits by selling sub-standard products? I read here that a lot of guys put together parts guns too and I question the wisdom of that. If I were really wanting to buy a top quality piece from a known source, I would buy a Les Baer. Their reputation is well known amongst the gun community, but you have to pony up more than $3K. Personally, I have never heard of these no-name brands mentioned in this forum. I would be highly suspect.
Enjoy your Bushy.
this is a horrible argument.. you can't deny facts. you cant deny field testing. you can't deny an expert consensus.
the opinion of the masses here at M4Carbine.net comes from field testing, weapon construction specifications, and the consensus of experts. the "chart," which i'm sure you've seen, is a simplified look at the technical details of each manufacturer. these aren't invented, they're not lies. the lower tier guns use cheaper, easier to machine, and inferior steel grades, don't test their parts, don't use properly reamed barrels, dont properly assemble the weapons a lot of the time, and have long established records of poor performance and failures.
KAC, LMT, Sabre, Colt, are DoD contracted manufacturers- their contributions to the military's weapon systems meet or exceed the military's high standards for performance. BCM, NRW, all use almost all, or all, or even exceed those same specifications, and have been battle-proven via the private sector. DD, a new player in the AR platform game, also uses those specs- and so far, after being fielded by professionals and enthusiests, are shaping up to be highly reliable weapons as well.
Bushmaster and DPMS, for example, have also been tested on the battlefield- and failed. Someone with intimate experience with bushmaster and their shortcomings on the battlefield has been contributing to this thread.
let me put it this way: there are different levels of experience and knowledge in the world of ARs- there's people who know only what they've picked up from friends and the occasional gun magazine and their local gunshops- this is you. you're looking from the bottom up. then there's people who are or have been professional gunslingers, who are looking from the top down- these are people who use those weapons that've managed, after millions of rounds fired and years of field testing, to make it to those upper tiers of KNOWN quality.. the rest of us here on this board get to benefit from that experience and knowledge. instead of bringing your misinformation and trying to make some kind of argument with it- try sitting back and reading for a bit. it'll be a real eye-opener.
we're talking about facts, not opinions- and there really aren't many mysteries. the things you don't know, and don't think other people know- are common knowledge around here.
bkb,
Now you know why I said what I did. These threads always draw out those who will refuse to believe there is anything bad about their purchase and that their particular weapon is as good as the "tier 1" brands.
yes, indeed... i guess any mention of a question of quality will spark the fight. but it's still been stimulating, and there are a number of people who've actually contributed to the original spirit of the thread.
i can't recall another thread in recent times that managed to get as involved in the POS v. TDP debate as this one.. they usually get red loctite pretty quick.. and there's been a lot of great arguments.
CaptainDooley
07-05-09, 18:37
I don't mean to derail this train (again), but you mentioned NRW - is this short for Noveske?
I don't mean to derail this train (again), but you mentioned NRW - is this short for Noveske?
yup.. Noveske Rifleworks
pistolman1974
07-05-09, 19:27
I bought a DTI ( Del Ton). I've read the chart and did the research. I just can't afford a $1300 for a rifle. I should have bought an Ar sooner before the present political situation but finances wouldn't allow it. I know I could have gotten alot better rifle for the same price.
I bought the DTI for about $750. I know its weaknesses and will correct them over time. Right now my SHTF is a de-banned norinco MAK-90.
I did some research on DTI before I bought it. so I know what I bought. Honestly, I'm pretty happy with it.
IMO know your rifle and take care of it.
To get this back on track...
I bought a bushmaster orc back in 2005 after a respected friend (my NCOIC and a swat team leader) told me his had been working well for him and it would save a couple bucks over a colt. The same friend now calls them "bush hamsters" and has replaced the upper with a BCM. I originally mounted a leupold rifleman, but told myself I could still use it to practice weapon manipulations and shorter distance shooting.
I rid myself of that weapon for several reasons. One of the main reasons was seeing the change in my friend's opinion along with his reasoning behind it. Let's just say he became more educated as he attended more and more training courses. Another reason is that I wanted a fighting gun that would mimic my issued rifle so I could really train with it. This made necessary a RDS and buis, and no great options were available for the buis. I tried some POS flip-up thing and took it off before even shooting with it because I knew it wouldn't work or be very durable. Also, I learned of its deficiencies and the corners that bushmaster cuts. I was not willing to go to the great lengths to fix all of this to keep a sub-standard rifle, so once the election rush came I sold it at a gun show and used some of my tax return to purchase a DDM4.
A part of me hates sub-par everything regardless of my actual need. If I am spending my money, I typically will chip in that little extra to buy lasting quality. I will never regret that swap, nor any future purchase that offers peace of mind at a slightly greater expense.
pistolman,
Out of curiousity I have a question. You were able to afford 750.00 and I asssume that you spent some money on ammo and mags. Why did you feel that you had to get one right away? Could you not have saved some addt'l money and waited maybe another 3 months?
Was your purchase in haste because of an "impending" ban? Did you consider a S&W which I believe sells for about 200.00 more?
I bought a DTI ( Del Ton). I've read the chart and did the research. I just can't afford a $1300 for a rifle. I should have bought an Ar sooner before the present political situation but finances wouldn't allow it. I know I could have gotten alot better rifle for the same price.
I bought the DTI for about $750. I know its weaknesses and will correct them over time. Right now my SHTF is a de-banned norinco MAK-90.
I did some research on DTI before I bought it. so I know what I bought. Honestly, I'm pretty happy with it.
IMO know your rifle and take care of it.
CryingWolf
07-05-09, 19:57
insisting that they put in a true 5.56 chamber
This is a little scary from a safety standpoint, especially if the barrel is marked 5.56. You would hope and think if any lower tier companies got at least one thing right it would be that. How would the common layperson know?
You know that really comes down to the bean counters, it is easier and cheaper to replace a rifle then it is to correct the problem.:mad:
This is a little scary from a safety standpoint, especially if the barrel is marked 5.56. You would hope and think if any lower tier companies got at least one thing right it would be that. How would the common layperson know?
You know that really comes down to the bean counters, it is easier and cheaper to replace a rifle then it is to correct the problem.:mad:
since most people dont actually shoot their weapons, most people wont have problems.. those who do, and induce problems, won't really worry about a couple of "jams" because to them its not unacceptable to have some issues- its an AR, afterall, not an AK, right? you have to expect they'll have quirks from time to time (speaking for someone who doesn't know better, this is untrue).
those who run enough xm193- versus the wolf .223 that goes through 99.9999% of bushmasters- to cause a major malfunction... well, how often does that happen? these are the only ones that might make it back to bushmaster.
pistolman1974
07-05-09, 20:13
pistolman,
Out of curiousity I have a question. You were able to afford 750.00 and I asssume that you spent some money on ammo and mags. Why did you feel that you had to get one right away? Could you not have saved some addt'l money and waited maybe another 3 months?
Was your purchase in haste because of an "impending" ban? Did you consider a S&W which I believe sells for about 200.00 more?
The best way to explain it was that I had a limited window of opportunity and it took quite some time to to even get the $750. To get to $1300 would have been much longer than 3 months and on top of that I was growing impatient.
Saving longer did come to mind what I figured out is that the upgrades I feel are neccessary would cost less than $600 so I went for it.
RogerinTPA
07-05-09, 20:19
This is a little scary from a safety standpoint, especially if the barrel is marked 5.56. You would hope and think if any lower tier companies got at least one thing right it would be that. How would the common layperson know?
You wouldn't unless you either, A.) Started shooting 5.56 in a .223 chamber. (you'll know when you start getting lots FTEs/stuck cases, or B.) send it to a gun guru who has a 5.56 chamber reamer. Iraqgunz, Grant, GotM4 and others, can attest to how much metal debris/shavings they get out of an alleged 5.56 chamber. A true 5.56 chamber, using a 5.56 reamer, will get very little or no metal shavings back.
my m16a2 in OSUT was a pretty rotten piece of shit, as were many others around me. Once I got a taste of Real Army, and was issued a brand new m16a4, i just attributed it's strong performance to luck and the fact that it was brand new. what i didn't take into account was the fact that the weapons they issued us in OSUT were freaken 20 years old and were DX'd directly after our cycle. the next round of greenhorns all got brand new A4s...
Off Topic. but when I went through OSUT, the M16a2 was so new we had to turn ours in after we qualified and pass them on to the next company. We were then issued M16a1s for the rest of our time there.
Back on Topic. My first AR was a Bushmaster with the flat top upper and realtree type camo stock and handguards. I was the third owner and it was so filthy that I thought I'd ****ed myself over when I gave it it's first good cleaning. Fortunately it was in better shape than I thought and shot really well. It belonged to a friend of mine and he needed some quick cash, so he took a $100 dollars and let me pay out the rest. I got it for $800.
Hmm. Bottom tier. Bet some of you guys drive Chevies too.
Drive Chevy's. Probably. Not me. Mercedes or Jeep. What's wrong with a Chevy? It's quite obvious you don't have a fu***** clue. Read the posts. Do your homework. Right now you are coming across as a dumba**. Guess what? I, and many others here, graduated from a major university. So what if someone drives a Chevy? Your attempted point makes you look like a stupid a** that really can't think beyond a superficial level. Do us all a favor and go to TOS and never come back. Don't like my post? I'm not sorry. You are exactly the type of idiot we prefer not to have here. Your "logic" is not logic, yet you are so butt hurt you won't admit you made bad decisions, despite all the evidence against your(in your mind) evidence.
CryingWolf
07-05-09, 22:55
since most people dont actually shoot their weapons, most people wont have problems..
:D Almost shot beer out my nose on that one. Too funny, too true, too sad!
CryingWolf
07-05-09, 23:33
I bought a DTI ( Del Ton). I've read the chart and did the research. I just can't afford a $1300 for a rifle. I should have bought an Ar sooner before the present political situation but finances wouldn't allow it. I know I could have gotten alot better rifle for the same price.
I bought the DTI for about $750. I know its weaknesses and will correct them over time. Right now my SHTF is a de-banned norinco MAK-90.
I did some research on DTI before I bought it. so I know what I bought. Honestly, I'm pretty happy with it.
IMO know your rifle and take care of it.
Honestly you are already ahead of most purchasers out there. You are reading and taking the time to learn about the rifle you have.
Texpatriate
07-05-09, 23:49
Iraqguns-
It wasn't my purchase, so I don't know how the itemized bill looked, but he said he paid $1700 including shipping for the BCM upper, BCM lower, & DD BCG, plus an Eotech (unspecified model), a troy flip-up rear sight, some mags, a PRI big latch, and several other accessories. Sounds like he di pretty good to me.
In my own personal experience in dealing with G&R, I gave $475 +S&H for my BCM middy upper, and $130+S&H for a G&R BCG, and I believe I was quoted $350 for a BCM lower which I have yet to order. Not exactly the same order as his, but there you go.
hmm. it was 3 years ago.... walked into a army/navy in stockbridge,GA. saw that gorgeous ar15 all by her lonesome.. didnt know a damn thing about quality/shooting/m4carbine.net, i just knew i loved the way that gun looked... and i cant remember the last time i didnt want an ar15.. soooo i impulsed bought that sucker. but 3 years later im still shooting that RRA and loving it. next rifle will be a colt tho, hands down. i love this website. ha!
As a matter of fact one of my vehicles is a Chevy Suburban with almost 200K miles on the original motor. What's your point?
Hmm. Bottom tier. Bet some of you guys drive Chevies too.
I don't know about you all but when I first got seriously interested in the platform that is the AR, I planned it all out. I was looking at Bushmasters, DPMS, CMMG and all this that and the other.I had no idea how crappy some of the stuff i looked at was, and thank goodness i didnt have the money at the time or i'd have a cheapo But then I somewhat educated myself, with the help of this site and other resources. Finally for my first build/rifle, I decided on a RRA rifle kit with a Double Star stripped lower. One of the reasons I bought the DSC lower was because I'm from Kentucky and DSC is made in Winchester. But even after I educated myself as to whats top of the line and whats to be avoided for certain purposes, I still didn't go with Noveske or similar top dogs because I have a budget. I picked companies (RRA) that IMHO are decent contenders for a first time, get used to the platform type of gun, not saying I'd trust DSC's uppers but their lowers i guess are alright. I'm not trying to say that my hodge podge build is as good as ______ (insert manufacturer) I'm just saying that for my first build on a tight budget I think I'm building a pretty solid kit. And you CAN build/buy a decent rifle on a tight budget. Hell I'm not even old enough to get a full time job and I'm scratching up the dough here and there to slap one together. I see that unless some one is really interested in a platform as diverse as the AR, they really dont care. To them its a rifle that'll get shot once or twice a year and will set in a closet. They dont care to take time and think out there purchase or build. To them a Noveske is just as good as a DPMS:rolleyes: But the end factor in my situation was budget, Im what youd call a noob and im looking to get familiar with the platform and eventually upgrade. Thats what drove me to my purchase.:)
As a matter of fact one of my vehicles is a Chevy Suburban with almost 200K miles on the original motor. What's your point?
Real men drive Fords:p sorry I had to, its a man law
texpatriate,
Basically what we are looking at in your case is a top quality AR for about 975.00 or so with shipping. Not much more than what a DPMS, Bushy or Oly Arms is selling for and possibly cheaper than an Armalite or RRA.
Iraqguns-
It wasn't my purchase, so I don't know how the itemized bill looked, but he said he paid $1700 including shipping for the BCM upper, BCM lower, & DD BCG, plus an Eotech (unspecified model), a troy flip-up rear sight, some mags, a PRI big latch, and several other accessories. Sounds like he di pretty good to me.
In my own personal experience in dealing with G&R, I gave $475 +S&H for my BCM middy upper, and $130+S&H for a G&R BCG, and I believe I was quoted $350 for a BCM lower which I have yet to order. Not exactly the same order as his, but there you go.
Texpatriate
07-06-09, 09:21
texpatriate,
Basically what we are looking at in your case is a top quality AR for about 975.00 or so with shipping. Not much more than what a DPMS, Bushy or Oly Arms is selling for and possibly cheaper than an Armalite or RRA.
Sounds about right to me.
I don't know about you all but when I first got seriously interested in the platform that is the AR, I planned it all out. I was looking at Bushmasters, DPMS, CMMG and all this that and the other.I had no idea how crappy some of the stuff i looked at was, and thank goodness i didnt have the money at the time or i'd have a cheapo But then I somewhat educated myself, with the help of this site and other resources.
Finally for my first build/rifle, I decided on a RRA rifle kit with a Double Star stripped lower. One of the reasons I bought the DSC lower was because I'm from Kentucky and DSC is made in Winchester. But even after I educated myself as to whats top of the line and whats to be avoided for certain purposes, I still didn't go with Noveske or similar top dogs because I have a budget. I picked companies (RRA) that IMHO are decent contenders for a first time, get used to the platform type of gun, not saying I'd trust DSC's uppers but their lowers i guess are alright.
I'm not trying to say that my hodge podge build is as good as ______ (insert manufacturer) I'm just saying that for my first build on a tight budget I think I'm building a pretty solid kit. And you CAN build/buy a decent rifle on a tight budget. Hell I'm not even old enough to get a full time job and I'm scratching up the dough here and there to slap one together.
I see that unless some one is really interested in a platform as diverse as the AR, they really dont care. To them its a rifle that'll get shot once or twice a year and will set in a closet. They dont care to take time and think out there purchase or build. To them a Noveske is just as good as a DPMS:rolleyes:
But the end factor in my situation was budget, Im what youd call a noob and im looking to get familiar with the platform and eventually upgrade. Thats what drove me to my purchase.:)
dmann, I notice you took the time to edit but not add paragraphs so I did. isn't that better?
Yes it is ra2bach, I have a bad habit of not using paragraphs sometimes. It does look cleaner.
I bought the same rifle and so far, happy with it. I think there are too many outhouse opinions on this forum regarding many manufacturers products. Why would any decent manufacturer jeopardize the reputation of his company and leave himself open for huge lawsuits by selling sub-standard products? I read here that a lot of guys put together parts guns too and I question the wisdom of that. If I were really wanting to buy a top quality piece from a known source, I would buy a Les Baer. Their reputation is well known amongst the gun community, but you have to pony up more than $3K. Personally, I have never heard of these no-name brands mentioned in this forum. I would be highly suspect.
Enjoy your Bushy.
Manufacturers bet on the fact the most people that buy their AR's are not REALLY gonig to shoot them. Also, the ONLY WAY they would get sued is if the person is hurt from an explosion. The AR platform does a good job of capturing/containing this type of thing. So there are no real worries about being sued over this.
Building your own weapon is both good and bad. If you know where to get quality parts, then you can build a fantastic weapon from scratch and know EXACTLY what is in your weapon. If you do not know where to get quality parts, then it is a bad idea. Most times, a persons idea of "building an AR" is buying a complete upper and lower and putting them together. This is not really building an AR.
I have no idea what "no name AR's" have been mentioned in this thread. If you are talking about Noveske, BCM, LMT, you will need to climb out of your hole.
Les Baer uses non Mil-Spec parts (AKA as cheap items). They are also WAY over priced for what you get. Neither their barrels or Bolts are HPT/MP tested (FYI). I would also be suprised if they used true 556 NATO chambers. If you want one of their varmint guns, then mil-spec does not really apply (as it is not a fighting gun).
C4
Hmm. Bottom tier. Bet some of you guys drive Chevies too.
Bottom tier is ok (if that is what you want). It is also ok if you ACTUALLY understand why it is lower tier and what makes an AR better.
I do not drive a Chevy and never would (especially after they received federal money to save their ass). ;)
C4
P.S. You also never replied to my comments/education on page 7. Did you realize that your BM AR doesn't not even meet the mil-standard (which is really low) and have no comment??
John_Wayne777
07-06-09, 13:03
If I were really wanting to buy a top quality piece from a known source, I would buy a Les Baer.
...which, with all due respect, demonstrates how little you know about this area.
You're willing to buy a 3 grand Les Baer AR having no idea what goes into one, but a "no name" BCM upper or Noveske or Daniel Defense rifle would get passed over despite the fact that you can readily identify how they are made, what materials they are made with, and what quality control processes they are subjected to.
...which, with all due respect, demonstrates how little you know about this area.
You're willing to buy a 3 grand Les Baer AR having no idea what goes into one, but a "no name" BCM upper or Noveske or Daniel Defense rifle would get passed over despite the fact that you can readily identify how they are made, what materials they are made with, and what quality control processes they are subjected to.
Bingo!
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25447&highlight=baer
C4
I traded someone I trust a bolt gun that I just didn't think I would get to shoot alot due to physical issues for a gun he built. I trust this person more than I can say he put together an AR CMMG custom upper with a 16in barrel surfire fore arm and vortex flash. It has a spikes loer with the magpul stock. I just took the Magpul 2 day class and put 1700 rounds thru it without cleaning and did not have a problem at all and we ran it hard. I wouldn't trust just anyone but he did a hell of a job.
theJanitor
07-06-09, 15:31
I currently run two LMT's and have had many in between, but my first AR15 was a RRA. I went to the gunshop and told them i wanted to BUILD a gun. These folks at this shop are very friendly and honest people. they told me they had RRA stripped uppers and lowers. they had stag LPK's, RRA BCG's, etc. They told me that the PARTS they had instock weren't the very best.
I told them to give me everything i needed to build one including the tools. so i went home, found a diagram of an AR online and built one. then i took it back to the shop, and was given some pointers on staking and proper maintenance. i've long since sold that weapon. it worked great, but it served it's purpose, and i learned how a rifle goes together, comes apart, breaks, and gets fixed. i don't regret that move for a second.
oh and just for reference, I own a Ford F150, a BMW 335i, and a Honda S2000. what does that say about me:D
oh and just for reference, I own a Ford F150, a BMW 335i, and a Honda S2000. what does that say about me:D
so long as you don't wear a khaki blazer and slick back your hair when driving the beamer, a cowboy hat and boots when driving the truck, and (here's the kicker) matching sport leathers and flak jackets when riding the bike, all it says is you have a lot of debt.
i know, i know... bike riding, for some reason, is the one time when "dressing the part" is not only acceptable, but encouraged.
i still cringe when i see friends walking around all tough and serious faced just because they have their leathers on. if and when i ever get my R1, i will wear jeans and t-shirts- just to be anti-poser, if nothing else. hello roadburn..
theJanitor
07-06-09, 15:52
lol. jeans and merrells, everywhere. and the Honda is a car:D the truck is 14 years old, the Honda is 7, so one car payment and one mortgage.;)
lol. jeans and merrells, everywhere. and the Honda is a car:D
hmm.. well i never said i knew anything about honda. ;)
I bought my first AR last year without really knowing much about them, AF trained on the M16A2, so it was an impulse buy on the cheap, and a DPMS was had from gunbroker.com. no face to face, no handling or making sure the screws were even tight before having it purchased and shipped to my local FFL who could care less about what i bought as long as the paperwork looked good.
There i was with my new toy, oooing and ahhing at my new baby, when i decided i would see what i could find, and a friend pointed me to TOS. i started reading about them, thinking to myself "ok its still workable and will do what i want," but not quite happy with my selection. I then bought a CMMG lower, got a DPMS LPK, put it together and was quite content with it! I read more and realized i wanted a 20" barrel with 1:8 twist (took me 3 months to find it, and now im going to replace the upper receiver with one that has FA and dust cover :) ). I love the barrel, and its more accurate than i am, but that damn upper receiver sucks! :D
So Here i am, reading mostly in the reloading section because i love to do it, and venturing into the general discussion area to actually educate myself with what is really going to work for what i want it to do, finding out that my first AR, the DPMS has utterly let me down after reading about it, not even wanting to touch it anymore and trying to sell it so that i can fund my next purchase of an LMT. I went and examined it butt to muzzle and found everything wrong that you guys have harped on being wrong, wishing i hadnt blown my money on it in the first place! Thanks a bunch to the knowledge here for the public, and to the handy M4 chart that is easliy read :).
If driving a Honda S2000, a skirt must be worn.:p
There i was with my new toy, oooing and ahhing at my new baby, when i decided i would see what i could find, and a friend pointed me to TOS. i started reading about them, thinking to myself "ok its still workable and will do what i want," but not quite happy with my selection.
its pretty gay to get something, and be all excited about it, just to find out it's not that great afterall. but don't feel bad- you don't know what you don't know till you know. and when you don't know, you don't even know WHAT you don't know- so you don't know to find out, even. i'm willing to bet this is Slapshot's problem, and said as much in my reply to him. ignorance can be fixed- but stubborn attachment to ignorance is what we call "Stupidity."
good job doing your research and finding out- even if you had to get through one lower-tier gun to do so. most guys have had at least one shitty gun at some point.
theJanitor
07-06-09, 16:59
If driving a Honda S2000, a skirt must be worn.:p
damn 6933, that was low. you didn't think that my 2800lb, 295 WHP, 9200 rpm, 6 speed, 4.10 geared roadster was a miata did you? :p ALOT of skirts sat in the passenger seat, BTW ;):D
to get back on track with the topic. even if poor purchases are initially made, lower quality components can be changed out at scheduled maintenance time, or when time/money allows. just because a "lower" spec gun was purchased, does not mean that it can't be reconfigured into a fine weapon.
damn 6933, that was low. you didn't think that my 2800lb, 295 WHP, 9200 rpm, 6 speed, 4.10 geared roadster was a miata did you? :p ALOT of skirts sat in the passenger seat, BTW ;):D
to get back on track with the topic. even if poor purchases are initially made, lower quality components can be changed out at scheduled maintenance time, or when time/money allows. just because a "lower" spec gun was purchased, does not mean that it can't be reconfigured into a fine weapon.
barrels are the kicker.. and since the barrel is kind of important, and expensive, and considering this is the part that lower-tier manufacturers seem to **** up with the most regularity, you can't really get around that.
again- not saying you can't "fix up" a lesser weapon, but i am emphasizing that that's a route that should only be taken in hindesight.
theJanitor
07-06-09, 18:01
barrels are the kicker.. and since the barrel is kind of important, and expensive, and considering this is the part that lower-tier manufacturers seem to **** up with the most regularity, you can't really get around that.
again- not saying you can't "fix up" a lesser weapon, but i am emphasizing that that's a route that should only be taken in hindesight.
agreed. but many people do not have the means to change paths very quickly. if a poor choice in weapons has been made. the AR is the best system to allow for incremental, or wholesale, improvements.
mistakes are just that, mistakes. sometimes we make them because we didn't know better. sometimes we make them because of faulty logic. sometimes we make them because we take advice from people who should not be giving advice. whatever the reason, there are ways, especially with this platform, to rectifying a poorly chosen/built weapon.
as far as barrels, i have to agree AND disagree. it is a major and COSTLY part of the weapon system. and yes, lots of manufacturer's **** it up. but i hardly believe it is the MAJOR contributor to lower tier guns going tits up. crappy bolts, staking, FCG's probably account for more weapons going down than barrels made out of lesser steels, or too big gas ports, etc. on the OTHER hand poorly chambered barrels can wreak havoc on lots of shooters. but getting a chamber reamed is not a complicated or expensive repair either.
I'm obviously new so here goes.... I bought a M&P15A 2 weeks ago after doing tons of internet research as well as going to Borders to read all the "free" gun magazines. After awhile I found M4C, and most important, the Chart. I appreciated the details and the reasoning behind them. It allowed me to make the logical choice, hence the M&P. Why didn't I get a Colt? Simply put, budget. I'm in sales and business is wayyyyyy off. So I have consigned my SKS, Winchester 1894 30.30 and my Mossberg 500A to fund this change. My son in law is LEO and I got the M&P15A for $892 at expressguns.com. I still need to get a sling, more PMags and later an Aimpoint but the main thing was to get one before they are banned yet again. I don't expect bad things to happen but if they do, I don't want to worry about my supplies/weapons. Guns and Ammo /Combat Arms had an article on a Carbine Class put on by Pat Rogers and he called the M&P a Tier 1 gun so that was a good enough recommendation for me.
Bottom line: budget and quality.
1/9 twist limits you to less effective rounds, unlined bores either corrode or have to be loobed- and a loobed bore significantly increases the likelihood of squibs/kabooms, burred gas ports, tight chambers/bad headspace, huge gas ports, etc...
things to consider beyond barrel steel type, which is mostly a durability issue.
Guns and Ammo /Combat Arms had an article on a Carbine Class put on by Pat Rogers and he called the M&P a Tier 1 gun so that was a good enough recommendation for me.
Bottom line: budget and quality.
"tier" is a shaky term, and misused pretty much across the board. if we want to be really technical about it- Colt, and FN are the only "tier 1 manufactures" i'm aware of.. but we commonly include KAC, Sabre and LMT, as they do provide parts. Sabre and KAC also provide, if i remember correctly, complete weapon systems, but not M16/M4s... so perhaps you could call all of them Tier 1. Noveske, for instance, while making some pretty ****in awesome guns, is NOT a tier 1 mfr.
Not sure why Pat would put the M&P in Tier 1... the DoD has no contracts with Smith to produce M16/M4 weapons.
I find this particular forum to be most informative, giving me the knowledge to go forward in the AR field with the best up-front knowledge available. That said, let me outline some of my past decisions, good and bad, and the results thereof. My first AR experiences were in the Army, and were brief, at the end of my service career. My first personal AR was (is) a Colt SP1 purchased in 1989. Truth be told, I haven't shot it much, but enough to know it is a fine, accurate, and reliable weapon, kept mainly as a fall back to defend the homestead if necessary. Fast forward to about a year and a half ago,I saw a Bushmaster "piston gun"at my favorite local gun shop. The shop folks knew even less than I did about it, but the cocept seemed like a great idea so I bought it. Turned out to be quite a decent gun, at least so far. Bought one more M4 style carbine during last fall's panic after the election. That one is an M&P 15 MOE, and so far I like it just fine. I have used a Leupold 2.5- 8X scope to develop handloads for both guns since the ammo went out of sight. Bought an Eotech 553 about a year ago and an Aimpoint Comp M4 a couple of weeks ago. I do a lot of other shooting, ie sporting clays, trap, and handguns, so it is taking me a while to really work my way through the carbines. Lately, I have been spending a morning a week working with the M4s at the range, having a bunch of fun with them, and learning their habits. At some point I probably will build a carbine, to have the experience, and learn how it goes together, as well as coming up with a near a perfect rifle as possible. This forum is definitely helping me along in acquiring the knowledge needed AHEAD of time instead of after the purchase.
Lagadelphia
07-06-09, 21:39
I purchased my Bushmaster Superlight A3 in March of 2004. I got it as a package deal that came with the stubby entry stock, Aimpoint Comp ML2, Aimpoint QRP, ARMS 40 rear sight, and a POS 30 rnd mag. The package ran about $1200-1300 IIRC. At that time, all I heard was "ABC" Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt. Even back then, DPMS and Oly were ones to stay away from. I went with the Bushmaster because the package contained everything I was looking for. I ended up shooting it little as the stubby stock was just too short and was uncomfortable to shoot. That said, I never a function issue other than the crappy mag that came with it. Good mags fixed it right up. Low round count to be sure however.
I found this site early last year and read the information contained here in and made some changes.
I replaced the stock with a Magpul CTR. Since I needed an adjustable tube anyways, I went ahead and got a Milspec kit so that solved the buffer tube, and H buffer issue.
I examined the staking on my carrier and restaked it as it wasn't done as well as some pictured. I did that myself so it didn't cost anything to do.
The extractor upgrade is like $12 or so so I went ahead and did that too.
I plan on getting a quality bolt as well but I also feel that a spare bolt is important to have regardless of what AR is owned.
The barrel steel issue doesn't bother me. When this one gets shot out, I'll replace it with a spec barrel.
I took a three day carbine class with the rifle in this configuration and it ran ~1200 rounds without a hitch. I am completely satisfied with my rifle and confident that it will be good to go if I were to ever need it.
That said, if I started from scratch with the same budget, I'd go with a BCM of some flavor because the base cost for the BCM is very close to the base cost of the same Bushmaster. There is just no reason these days other than just having to have one right this second. I'd be doubly leery of mass production guns right now due to the demand and the rush to get them out the door.
BCM has an excellent reputation among people in the industry who put more rounds down range a year than I'll ever hope to do barring the bottom dropping out of the ammo market and a serious income upswing. If you can get a high quality weapon that is extremely likely to be built correctly for near or at the same price of a weapon that uses lesser materials and a greater hit or miss potential for proper assembly, it really should be a no brainer.
Where's the AR chart everyone keeps on mentioning???:confused:
Where's the AR chart everyone keeps on mentioning???:confused:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA
Sabre is evidently a supplier of M16's to DoD (admittedly in limited quantities):
https://aais.ria.army.mil/aais/award_web_08/W52H0908D02930001/000000.pdf
RetreatHell
07-07-09, 00:04
About 10 months ago I bought a 16" Bushmaster XM-15 E2S, M4A3 style carbine. I considered myself very knowledgeable about M-16/AR-15 type rifles, as I am a former Marine infantryman. Six years ago I was shot in Iraq (on April 12, 2003) in a pretty damn good-sized gunfight during the initial invasion (they hadn't yet learned at that point not to go toe-to-toe with Americans, but they quickly figured it out after we killed 100 of them:D), in the city of Al Tarmiya in which no Coalition forces had yet entered or cleared. I sustained a gunshot wound to the chest (from a Fedayeen fighter who I had just shot in the chest and thought I had killed, but he was doped up and also shot himself up with epinephrine before they ambushed us so he got back up while I was reloading my rifle and when I looked back up he was already aimed in at me from a distance of just 30 feet away... I raised my rifle to kill him but before I got a shot off I saw a muzzle flash from his AK-47 and then I was instantly on the ground). The bullet entered just under my left armpit, where there was no body armor, and then began traveling and tumbling downward. That single ten-cent 7.62mm bullet shredded my spleen, which had to be removed at the field hospital, punctured and collapsed my left lung, lacerated my stomach and left kidney, severed my aorta vein, blew out a chunk of my vertebrae and completely severed my spinal cord in between the T-12 and L-1 vertebrae, resulting in me being completely and permanently paralyzed from the waist down.
Sorry for the long backstory, I just figured it was kind of relevant and that some of you might be curious.
So needless to say, I didn't really shoot much at all throughout the first 5 years of my injury, not because of PTSD or any of that shit, but because I was in a bad way (to put it mildly) physically and it took 20 surgeries, two and a half years in and out of the VA hospital, hundreds of hours of physical therapy, and basically just time to get used to my new situation, before I was finally good to go and was confident enough to go out to the range by myself and do some shooting.
Anyhow, so I didn't do any research before I decided to purchase an AR. I was a hard ass, bad mother f'n combat vet... so I knew what the **** to buy, right? WRONG!! I came here a few months after purchasing my new "badass" Bushmaster carbine and learned that it wasn't exactly such hot-shit after all. In fact, I learned A LOT!! I began PM-ing back and forth with Jeff C. (USMC03), a fellow Marine warrior, and he educated the **** out of me! I thought I knew so damn much about this weapon platform, but soon realized after coming here for a while that I knew barely anything at all!
I now have a tremendous amount of info and knowledge about this particular wepon system, but still have an infinite amount of stuff to learn. I still have the original Bushmaster, which is now all Mil-Spec and looks nothing like it did when I purchased it, but only the barrel, upper receiver, lower receiver and takedown pins are the original parts... everything else has been replaced to the point where it's hard to even call it a Bushy now.
I also now own a BCM 11.5" upper with a BCM BCG and PRI gas buster CH internals, and a LMT 10.5" upper with the same internals. I have three quality-brand lowers as well (LWRC, Daniel Defense and Larue Tactical). And I just ordered a Knights Armament SR-15 E3, which will be arriving at my dealer's house on Thursday.:D Just FYI, Scottsdale Gun Club has them in stock right now!
As you can see I have put my newly acquired knowledge to good use and now have quality carbines. I will always keep the Bushy for sentimental value however, as it is the carbine that got me back into shooting again after a 5 year vacation (maybe "vacation" was the wrong word here... purgatory would be more accurate!:p) But if I could do it all over again, I would have come here and asked questions and read a lot of different threads first, and would have bought a Noveske or LMT (or something similar in terms of quality) as my first AR-15 rifle. But I guess it's always better late than never, I just had to throw away a lot of money before I figured out the difference between quality and crap when it comes to both AR-15s AND the huge amount of brands of accessories that are out there.
-Paul
beaker1013
07-07-09, 00:08
Well, I bought my RRA Entry Tactical with a 1:9 twist about a year ago from everyone's favorite :rolleyes:range/gun shop here in the Denver Metro area. I read Pat Sweeney's book and alot of articles (G&A mostly), looked around and decided to make my purchase. At first, I just wanted something to shoot for fun. After a few hundred rounds through my RRA I decided I wanted more from the weapon (something for classes, home defense or just a long weekend of shooting). So, I went looking for more information to help me, since my only experience with something similar was with the M-16A2 back in my Marine Corps days I hit the computer and found this site.
Following the advice I found, and asking questions, I bought a new BCG from Grant, figuring I could stake the stock one later and I knew his would be assembled correctly, a mil-spec extension tube and an EMOD stock, some Troy drop-ins, a G2 and a mount.
Went to the range and decided an optic would help, logged in asked questions (thanks again Jeff), got my T-1 and magnifier, back to the range. I decided I wanted to fire a heavier round with more stopping power and a free float system to help with accuracy, so I was able to pick up a BCM upper and a set of DD Omegas, and I was recently lucky enough to pick up a BCM BCG. Back to the range.
I wouldn't say I made a bad purchase, as for plinking or just spending a day at the range the original rifle would have been fine aside from staking. As my needs and wants changed, my weapon changed, and I'm sure that after pushing it in a class, it will probably get a few more tweaks. It might not be a Colt or the like, but it's a pretty sout bitch and right now it's where I want it. Of course, the only thing left on it that's stock is the lower and the LPK.
Semper Fi,
Dave
I read Pat Sweeney's book and alot of articles (G&A mostly), looked around and decided to make my purchase.
Semper Fi,
Dave
what kind of info did you get from these sources? I've never read Sweeney's book, no clue what's in it.
In fact, I've never really read any books on the AR, aside from TMs and flipping through some of the more popular ones while waiting for my wife at the book store
beaker1013
07-07-09, 01:05
The one I picked up is The AR-15 Vol. 2. He describes the function and use of parts and accessories and goes on to give reviews and performance tests of certain manufacturers. I guess Colt and the big boys were in Vol. 1. Vol. 2 is Stag, Bushmaster, RRA, Z-M, Sabre, S&W and Wilson Tactical. I think I got it on sale, but it carries a $28 price tag.
The one I picked up is The AR-15 Vol. 2. He describes the function and use of parts and accessories and goes on to give reviews and performance tests of certain manufacturers. I guess Colt and the big boys were in Vol. 1. Vol. 2 is Stag, Bushmaster, RRA, Z-M, Sabre, S&W and Wilson Tactical. I think I got it on sale, but it carries a $28 price tag.
what were some of his findings/recommendations, if you recall?
Sabre is evidently a supplier of M16's to DoD (admittedly in limited quantities):
https://aais.ria.army.mil/aais/award_web_08/W52H0908D02930001/000000.pdf
good lookin out- that's conclusive proof of Tier 1 status.
beaker1013
07-07-09, 01:16
He didn't really have any negatives comments as I can remember. I don't even remember any malfunctions reported on anything. He talk about the importance of staking, but he didn't apply it to his review of the weapons.
beaker1013
07-07-09, 01:30
Sorry about the spelling, flew through it to make a bathroom run. I dug the book out. He also reviewed Alexander Arms, Dow, High Standard, DPMS and Les Baer.
hmm.. so he showcases weapons and their configurations, but doesn't give the reader any technical information to make base a decision on.
beaker1013
07-07-09, 01:57
I was looking through the book a bit. He gives you desired specs for individual parts in the body of the book, and twist rates, how the weapon handles certain ammo, what the barrel is made of etc. under manufacturers, but he doesn't break the weapon down and say "upon inspection of the BCG I found..."
Well, I bought my RRA Entry Tactical with a 1:9 twist about a year ago from everyone's favorite :rolleyes:range/gun shop here in the Denver Metro area. I read Pat Sweeney's book and alot of articles (G&A mostly), looked around and decided to make my purchase. At first, I just wanted something to shoot for fun. After a few hundred rounds through my RRA I decided I wanted more from the weapon (something for classes, home defense or just a long weekend of shooting). So, I went looking for more information to help me, since my only experience with something similar was with the M-16A2 back in my Marine Corps days I hit the computer and found this site.
Following the advice I found, and asking questions, I bought a new BCG from Grant, figuring I could stake the stock one later and I knew his would be assembled correctly, a mil-spec extension tube and an EMOD stock, some Troy drop-ins, a G2 and a mount.
Went to the range and decided an optic would help, logged in asked questions (thanks again Jeff), got my T-1 and magnifier, back to the range. I decided I wanted to fire a heavier round with more stopping power and a free float system to help with accuracy, so I was able to pick up a BCM upper and a set of DD Omegas, and I was recently lucky enough to pick up a BCM BCG. Back to the range.
I wouldn't say I made a bad purchase, as for plinking or just spending a day at the range the original rifle would have been fine aside from staking. As my needs and wants changed, my weapon changed, and I'm sure that after pushing it in a class, it will probably get a few more tweaks. It might not be a Colt or the like, but it's a pretty sout bitch and right now it's where I want it. Of course, the only thing left on it that's stock is the lower and the LPK.
Semper Fi,
Dave
I think your experience is pretty typical for a lot of members here. You buy one thing with the knowledge at hand or from the pool of locally available options, and as your knowledge and experience grow you make changes/additions to the original gun, often winding up with a whole new gun either as an outright purchase or from the leftover parts when you're done.
After the ban sunset, I took my old BM and installed a 14.5" LMT upper with 12.0 Larue rail, Magpul M93B, Troy sights, Tango Down grips front and rear, etc. I also built a gun from scratch using an RRA lower and parts kit, and an upper I got from Denny at Global Tactical, and that one wore a Vltor stock, Daniel Defense rail, Ergo grip... basically all of the most popular parts at the time that WEREN'T on the BM/LMT. I shot both of those guns for awhile to figure out which parts and pieces I liked best, and then bought a pair of 6520s, one which remained mostly stock and one that I changed out to a flattop and added the best of the parts from the two test guns. Then I bought a pair of 6933s and did the same, outfitting one almost identically to the flattop 6520. This is what I wound up with.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Both-01.jpg
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